Now I want to go a layer deeper and dig into how to deal with this specifically at work with a question from a listener named Kay. Hi Mel, it's Kay. I want to become empowered to improve my work situation. So I want to ask you about unhealthy work environments and the side effects they manifest. Where should I start making changes?
Well, one thing I want to acknowledge really quickly is that you do have the power to change this because because Positive energy is also very contagious. And if you protect your energy, you can take proactive steps to call people out on their behavior. And so that's what we're going to talk about now. And I want to bring a study into this because there was a new study by the Workforce Institute at UKG that found that 69% of people say that their managers have the greatest impact on their mental. health, that their managers had the same level of impact on their mental health as their partner or spouse at home.
Now, this was more than the impact that their doctor or therapist had on their mental health. And this was a huge study. They looked at 3,400 people across 10 countries.
And so you are right. Negative people at work, particularly a manager, really bad for your mental health. because you can't fix them.
And for me, there are two types of jerks out there. And we've already started to kind of unpack this, but I really want to highlight this for you. There are the jerks that are just entitled, like I believe the woman at the hotel front desk was, that she just thinks she's better than everybody else.
And they treat people like crap because they've always treated people like crap. You know people like this. They're rude to waiters.
They're short with other people. They're full of themselves. They... have a tone to their voice.
They're super pompous. We hate these kind of people, the kind of people that are rude for no reason other than because this is how they are and this is how they treat people. And I hate people like this.
And you know what else I can't stand? I can't stand the fact that they tend to bully us, right? And we just give in and it just perpetuates this.
People get a better room because they're mean to the person at the front desk. The world should not work like this. but it drains our energy.
That's why we give in. And so there's that type of jerk. And then there's the second type, which is more like the person in that coffee shop that I was explaining where they're just under pressure and they can't tolerate the discomfort that they feel. I call these kinds of people emotionally immature.
And I use the word immature because they throw tantrums. They're like a child who is so frustrated, so they throw themselves on the floor. And they're immature because they do not have a mature or responsible way of tolerating emotional stress. And so in these situations at work, you have a couple choices. Number one, we've already talked about the snow globe.
This one works like a charm because it gives you objectivity, allows you to visualize the tantrum and it makes you feel a little bit better than the person, honestly. And so that's one thing. A second thing that you can do is you are allowed to call people out on this behavior.
In the first question that we got, you heard the example of somebody getting a really rude email. There's nothing wrong with picking up the phone or walking down the hall and saying, hey, is something going on with you? Because I don't know if you know how the tone of this email comes across, but it doesn't feel good. And most people, when you call them out on that and you kind of start off with, hey, is something going on with you?
Because this isn't like you and the tone is really demeaning. And is there something you want to tell me? Or are you unaware that this is like how you're speaking to people?
That is the way that you can call somebody out. And obviously, if you have somebody that is engaging in this consistently, document it, go to HR, because you shouldn't be under a barrage of that kind of abusive language, or demeaning language, or that sort of like really unnecessary pressure. That's not why you're in your job. And so you can go to HR, but you know, you can walk down the hall, you can pick up the phone. And you can say, I'm more than happy to help you with these things, but only if you speak to me in a respectful manner.
And this is not respectful. And I'm sorry you're having a bad day, but don't take it out on me. My son actually used to say that to me, and so did my kids. They would literally go, I don't know what's going on at work, but don't take it out on me.
I don't work with you. And so. Call the person out.
And if you're not comfortable, start documenting it and then go to HR and try to get some help with it. Final thing I want you to know. If you've just got somebody who's like grumpy or kind of standoffish or you work in a place like an investment bank or a law firm or someplace that's like crazy competitive, you want to know how you flip this? I love this strategy. I'm going to tell you a story.
You shower curmudgeons with compliments. That's what you do. And I have firsthand experience with this, and boy does it work like a charm.
It is just awesome. And the reason why this works is there's something in the world that is called the law of reciprocity. The law of reciprocity is very simple. If you do something nice for me, I feel like I should do something nice for you.
And this works with curmudgeons. I swear to goodness it does. Have you ever walked into a mall and somebody opens that first set of doors for you? What do you do with the second set?
You don't even think about it. You basically trip over your own feet to try to get to that door so you can hold it open for them. You do nice for me, I'll do nice for you.
And this works with curmudgeons at work. And I'm going to tell you a story. So a number of years ago, I had the honor of being recruited by CNN to become an on-air legal analyst. What does that mean?
That means that when Anderson Cooper is hosting his show and he goes, all right, well, let's go to some commentary. And then there's a person sitting basically in a closet in the box on the screen. That was me. I was not a reporter.
I was a paid legal commentator that was. giving analysis on all the big cases. And it was a fascinating job, but I noticed something.
I noticed that people were not that friendly. So you would be down at CNN in New York City in the Time Warner Center, which is where they were when I worked for them. And you're standing off the side of the set and you're going to go on to one of the shows and you're standing there with other legal commentators. These are your colleagues and everybody's on their phones. And nobody's talking to each other.
And if they're talking to each other, it's sort of like, oh, so, you know, are you on, you're on New Day this morning? Okay. And then are you going to be on Ashley's show? You're going to be, oh, you're on, oh, well, I'm on Don. Oh, well, I'm on, and sort of like this like one-upping thing as you're talking about how busy you're going to be today and what shows have called you.
And it's this weird thing. And so I didn't like that. And so this is what I decided to do. I decided that I was just going to proactively reach out.
and compliment my fellow legal analysts. So Paul Callen is one of them. I call him the professor.
He's one of my favorite human beings in the world. So here's how I would do it. We'd be walking off set and I'd be like, Paul, that was genius what you just said.
Even, and Paul's not a curmudgeon, but even he likes, oh, thank you. And when I would research a particular case that was breaking, you know what I did? I would forward. the cases and the interesting articles I was finding to the other four paid commenters, because there were only five of us on all of CNN that were on the payroll to do this.
And we all had other jobs. This is like something we were all doing on the side. And so I started emailing them. And then when I would see them on television, I'd be sitting home with my kids and one of them would be on because I wasn't called in to do it.
I would tweet at them and tag them. There's my friend Paul killing it. Great analysis. Can I tell you, it took less than five days to melt the ice.
And the five of us became such incredible friends. Joey Jackson, I miss you so much. Danny, I miss you. Paul Callen, I miss you.
We had a blast. We always had each other's backs. We became great friends, so much so that two years later, a woman reached out to me from CNN, and she was responsible for... building out the program for analysts, and she wanted to meet with me because she said, everybody inside of CNN talked about the camaraderie and the vibe between the five of us who didn't even live in the same city, and she wanted to know how we did it. And I said, we just started cheering for one another.
And so if you can stomach complimenting somebody on their work. or on their nails or don't be creepy about it. But if you can find something, hey, you did a really good job with that client.
Even a curmudgeon takes notice. And over time, you know what they do? The law of reciprocity kicks back in and they start complimenting you back.
You see, at the end of the day, whether people grew up with parents who were jerks and so they model behavior of being jerks and being, you know, pompous and better than other people, or they're just... emotionally immature and they can't tolerate their own emotions and that's why they throw tantrums. At the end of the day, everybody wants the same thing. We just want to know that we matter. We want to know that we're doing a good job.
We want to know that somebody appreciates that we're there. We want somebody to understand that we're doing our best and we're stressed out. We're trying to get the coffee out as fast as we can.
We want somebody to have a little bit of compassion for the fact that I'm 24 and I'm wearing a big blazer and I, you know, am not responsible, but I'm going to do my best to try to help you and I'd want to help you even more if you weren't such an asshole to me right now. That's what we want. We want a little bit of respect, a little bit of kindness.
And when you start to dial that up and you give it out with radical generosity, it comes back to you in incredible ways. And so, you know, that's what you can do. You can certainly call it out. And when you call it out, not in an antagonizing way, but hey, what's going on with you? Because you're not normally like this.
And you know, I'm happy to help you, but not when you're rude to me. Or go to HR. When you visualize somebody throwing a tantrum in a snow globe, it doesn't get on you.
And then when you start dialing up your own positivity, which you're going to be better equipped to do if you're using these tools, You can use the law of reciprocity to slowly melt that curmudgeon into a real softie. I swear to God, I've done it my whole life, and you can do it too. Today, we are talking about how you can protect yourself from other people's bad moods, how you deal with annoying co-workers, and boy, oh boy, do we have a juicy question at the end of this conversation today from Celeste about gossip.
You are gonna just love her question. I'm so excited because, you know, we all have stories about dealing with people who are like energy suckers, and I am bringing some stories today. But I want to make sure that you leave with some tools. And so I not only got some of the fun stories you're going to relate to from my own life, but I've got really visual metaphors and tools that are simple to remember.
They're sticky. You can teach them to anybody. And so one, you're going to learn how to put up an energetic force field. Two, we're going to talk about strategies for how you protect yourself from other people's baloney. And three, I'm going to teach you how to keep yourself in a positive mood.
Because that means no matter what's going on around you, you can be a force for good. And you can protect your own energy, even when people are testing your patience or trying to suck your energy dry. So let's jump right in with a question from a listener named Veronica. Hi Mel, it's Veronica.
In the workplace, and I'm sure in other spaces too, I find that there are some people who, whether they are conscious of it or not, project their panic and anger in emails and communications, which more often than not, turns my fine day into panic and anger as well. They are people who kind of bring the house down with them. How can you hear what they are saying and not be emotionally affected by it? Thank you.
Veronica, that example of the emails? You know, like when you get a text in all caps or you get one of those emails where you can hear the edge in somebody's voice and you're just like, why are you doing verbal diarrhea at me right now through this email? Because you would not speak to me this way.
And I have this story. So I was in Los Angeles last week and we were checking in at the front desk and this woman comes like huffing and puffing from the elevators. Okay. And she's doing that kind of walk where people are, they're like really hustling and shuffling on the floor. And their elbows are really pointy, like they're trying to pump their arms to make them walk even faster and with more authority.
And she had this high pony and it was swinging in the air. And she had a really fancy like piece of luggage she was dragging and duffel bag. And then there was this woman behind her kind of huffing and puffing behind her too.
And they walk right up next to us at the front desk. And she kind of... slams her hands on the table as Chris and I are in the middle of talking to the woman who's checking us in.
Now keep in mind, the woman who's checking us in, it's probably 9.15 at night in Los Angeles, she looks like she's probably 24 and I assume... Given that I have a 24-year-old daughter and I have a 22-year-old daughter, that she is probably a recent college grad who has majored in hospitality. And now she is in a two-year intern program where she is working in a hotel in a city she doesn't live in.
And she's got that kind of big blazer on that doesn't fit quite right. And you can tell that she's exhausted. And so I got this huffy, puffy, annoying woman next to me who is... clearly entitled, and she's angry.
What is she angry about? Oh, well, the doors to her balcony, they don't close all the way. I didn't even know there were balconies on the rooms in this hotel. I mean, I'm not in that kind of room. So she starts like venting at this woman, venting at this 24-year-old woman in a hospitality internship program.
who does not have the authority to do anything, who is clearly exhausted, and who, by the way, is not responsible for the door to your balcony not working. And so why are you just vomiting on this poor gal? And you could see the life force just drain out of this woman who was standing at the front desk.
And she apologized. She said she would get the manager who wasn't in and would be in in the morning. And then the woman huffed and she puffed. Well, what are you going to do about it now?
I can't stand people like this. There is no reason not to be kind to other people. There is no reason not to ask for help in a polite manner. Because the people that you're asking for help from almost...
Never responsible for the thing that's not working. And the person that's emailing you at work, who's all frustrated because of the Q4 numbers and the boo-boo-boo-boo-boo and the client this and the do-do-do-do-do, like you're not responsible for the stuff that's stressing them out. And so here's what I did in that moment because a couple things happened in that story.
Number one, that woman's bitchy behavior and entitlement, it's like contagious. And when somebody's yelling at you, whether it's an email or you're separated by the front desk at the hotel that you're working at, it still like gets all over you. I think about the visual almost like if you've ever walked your dog and they jump into like muddy water or they roll in the mud or heaven forbid you're walking on the beach and there's a big, nasty, rotting fish on the beach and your dog runs right up to it before you can get to the dog.
And now your dog is rolling all in it. It's like. And then they run over to you. And what does a wet, dirty dog always do when that dog gets up to you? They shake.
And when they shake, all of that negative, nasty, muddy fish, blah, blah, blah, blah, it just hits you. And when somebody is in a positive or a nasty mood, it's like a muddy dog shaking. And that energy gets all over you. And so it's critical in these moments that you protect your energy. And for me, I normally speak up when I see this kind of thing, because normally I have really great energy, and I'm not going to let somebody get away with that.
But the truth is, I was really tired. I had just flown across country, and we were in town to do something that was weighing on my mind, and I just didn't want to get into a fight with somebody who clearly had an ax to grind with absolutely anybody. And I'm not going to change this person anyway. And so what I do in those moments, when I start seeing that muddy dog shake or that high ponytail start flapping her mouth and being rude, is number one, I take a deep breath. That's it.
I just take a deep breath. And there's a breath technique that you can use called 4-7-8. I don't remember who came up with this. I'm sure some will put it in the show notes, but you breathe in for four seconds, hold it for seven, then out for eight.
And I read somewhere that the eight part is the most important because when you breathe out for longer than you breathed in, it... sends a signal to your nervous system that it's okay to relax. And the 4-7-8 breathing technique will start the relaxation response in your body. And so if you get that all-cap text from a friend, or you get that really rude email from a colleague, or you're standing somewhere in public and some jerk is annihilating the person and you just don't have the energy to go, hey, you know, you don't have to be rude about it.
Do the 4-7-8 breathing technique to signal the relaxation response in your body to protect your energy. I have a second tactic that I love. Oh my gosh, I love this.
Here's the visual. I use this all the time. In fact, I just used this in a different situation last night.
I call it the snow globe. So have you ever had a snow globe as a kid? You know, it's that glass ball and in it, they have these typically around the holidays, or if you go to like a museum or a gift store at a theme park, they tend to sell them there.
I don't know why, but it's this glass ball and in it is usually some sort of scene. So imagine a holiday tree, some reindeer, something like that comes to mind, or you could think about the... palace. What's that?
Cinderella's Palace at Disney. They probably have snow globes with Cinderella's Palace at Disney, right? What happens when you pick up a snow globe and you shake it? All of that crap in it starts flying around. You know what that crap is?
It's like that wet dog mud. Think about a snow globe the next time you are around anybody who gives you attitude. Because when you picture...
The person, like the chick with the high ponytail, trapped in her own little snow globe. And there she is, bitching and barking about something and spewing her negative energy everywhere. But if you think and picture her having her tantrum in a snow globe, let me out of here!
And all of that sparkly stuff is what gets shaken up and all the negative energy. If you visualize her inside the snow globe, you can laugh at her. And it doesn't get on you. So I use this even like a couple days ago.
I was at a coffee shop and again at another airport and we were standing in line and we ordered coffee and they were super super busy and it was taking a long time and I looked at the watch We had 20 minutes before the flight was gonna leave and Chris was getting testy with me because he's the kind of person my husband That we have the opposite travel languages. So I have my travel language is be the last person on the plane Get to the gate as late as possible without missing the plane. Spend as little time in the airport as possible.
Chris, on the other hand, he basically likes to stroll through an airport. He likes to sit at the gate for a while and get comfortable and read his book and enjoy his coffee. He loves getting there early. And so we have the exact opposite travel language. He has agreed to stand in this long line with me to get a cup of coffee.
He's starting to get agitated, not quite snow globe agitated, but you know, you can tell he's getting nervous and his coffee comes out. And so I say, why don't you take it and go and hold the plane for me? I'll be right there. So he leaves and now it's taking a minute and another minute and another minute. And I start to realize, holy cow, I'm going to miss this plane.
I start to realize, holy cow, I actually need to leave. And so I go to the counter and I say to the woman who's, they are really busy. I mean, you can tell she's stressed and I'm not like the lady with the ponytail.
I just lean forward and say, hey, you know, or is the drink for Mel about to be done? Because otherwise I'm going to just have to, you know, say, give it to somebody. And she, ah, like she had a tantrum. I'm doing the best of my hand.
She erupted. See, when somebody throws a tantrum, here's what I know. What I know is they're having trouble tolerating all the negative emotion that they're feeling.
This woman behind the counter is feeling a ton of pressure. She's behind. She's frustrated. I'm sure other people have been rude to her. And my question to her, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
She just couldn't handle the negativity and the stress anymore in her body. And so she had a tantrum. She exploded at me.
Whatever. She's allowed to have a tantrum. It's a stressful job. I get it. And because I can picture her inside her own little snow globe, having her own little tantrum.
All the sparkly stuff flying all around her, that's her negative energy. It stays inside the snow globe. I said, no problem, totally understand.
And I left and went to my plane. And you know what? I didn't let it bother me. And that's the beauty of these strategies. See, there are always going to be people and situations in life that are triggering.
The world is full of jerks and people who cannot tolerate their own emotional experience. And when you do the 4-7-8 breath to trigger a relaxation response inside yourself, you take control. When you visualize whomever it is, whether it's the colleagues sitting behind their desk and they're stomping on their keyboard, having their own little tantrum in their little cubicle, inside their little snow globe, you protect yourself. And that way, these emotional vampires that are out there in the world in these emotional vampire-y type situations that drain you and your energy, they don't impact you. And this is so important.
important because when you look at the research around human connection, our brains are programmed to connect with other human beings. That's how we're wired. It's part of our biology, our physiology.
In fact, we seek out connection. We want meaningful bonds because when we do that, it not only feels good. but your brain releases oxytocin, which is a wonderful feel-good chemical in your brain. It rewards that kind of thing. And if we feel disconnected, we feel unsafe.
And in fact, if we're around somebody else who's stressful or weird or hostile, like the chick with the ponytail, do you know what happens? Your brain releases yet another chemical. This one's called cortisol, and cortisol is the stress hormone. And so you immediately not only sense that something's off with this person, but you also have this chemical physiological response. I think that's why we often, you know, label people's behavior as toxic or icky or gross, because it feels that way to you, just like a dog that is shaking and gets their mud all over you.
And I think we know common sense-wise. that people's moods and energy are contagious, but there's a new study by scientists at Oxford and Birmingham universities that show that bad moods, they're not only contagious, they're more infectious than good moods. And on top of all of this, your brain has something called mirror neurons.
Mirror neurons are amazing because what they do is in nanoseconds, they can process and register. Any human being's facial expression, body language, tone of voice, it's absolutely unbelievable. And what ends up happening is your mirror neurons make you start to mirror the same emotions as the people around you. This is why when you're watching a movie and that sort of sappy music comes on or somebody in the movie starts to cry, your mirror neurons are what are triggering you to start welling up too.
And They also work for the positive. If you look at somebody eye to eye and you hold eye contact and you flash a huge toothy smile, it takes less than five seconds for the mirror neurons and the person who you are looking at and smiling at to kick in. And that person will not be able to help themselves, but smile back. And this is important for you to know because it works both for the good, you can catch really good energy, and... When it comes to bad energy, that's easier to catch.
We are talking about confidence, and I'm really excited because I'm going to walk you through the five simple tools that help you build this as a skill. And tool number one, take action. This is obvious. I understand. We have the definition of confidence.
Confidence is the willingness to try. You're not going to change your life or build confidence by thinking about the things you need to do. You must take action.
And so... The best action to take, the number one tool for helping you take action in those moments where you feel imposter syndrome, or you feel nervous, or you're embarrassed, or you start to doubt yourself, or you feel anxious. Whatever the feeling is, forget the feeling. Screw the feeling.
We got to take action in those moments because remember, we're building confidence. It's going to require you to try. Just use my five-second rule.
I told you the whole story about how I created it, the science behind it in the episode we released. way back in the day called Motivation is Garbage. I'll link to that. But if you're brand new to the podcast, let me give you the shortcut.
When you're in a situation where you start to doubt yourself, you're just gonna count backwards. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And then you physically move within five seconds. So here's how you can use it. Heather's talking about the fact that she wants to build confidence in this new role where she's been promoted. There are things that she needs to do as a new leader, but she doesn't have the competency yet.
Instead of thinking about those things, she can use the five-second rule, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, to interrupt that self-doubt. which is right there in the interior part of your brain in your basal ganglia. It's a pattern to doubt yourself.
And as you start counting backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, your mind switches gears and your prefrontal cortex gets involved. And that's the part of the brain that controls your focus. It helps you interrupt thoughts and feelings of self-doubt.
And it draws the part of your brain that will help you take action, will help you engage in strategic thinking. will help you encode new behavior and habits. It will help you tap into your courage.
That's it. That's all that it is for Alex, who is surrounded by all these high achievers. The next time she's sitting in a classroom and she has something that she wants to share, instead of shrinking in her seat, she's going to try. And the five-second rule is going to help. Five, four, three, two, one.
And then she's going to shoot that hand up in the air because you know what? Alex has something to say. And even though she doesn't feel comfortable, even though she might get a neck rash, even though her cheeks might go fire engine red, and even though she might stutter or stumble or have dry mouth or whatever might happen, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, she is willing to try.
Because here's something I want you to understand. You can tap into courage before you start having that feeling of assuredness. Courage is what you tap into.
Confidence is what you're building over time. I'm going to say that again. Courage comes first.
Courage, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. You start counting backwards, man, that is an act of courage because you're going for it. Courage comes first. Confidence is what builds over time.
How cool is that, right? I absolutely love this because what I'm ultimately teaching you, and this again relates to all the research, is that there's two types of people out there. There are people who think about what they want to do, and then there are people that find the courage to take action.
And that's what I want for you, because you're not going to think your way out of fear or doubt or insecurity. You're not going to think your way through your fears and anxiety. The fact is you have greatness inside you, and I want you to start tapping into it.
It's only through action that you unlock. that power inside you and you become the person that you're meant to be. I mean, that's how I've created the life that I have now.
If I didn't learn how to 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, push myself to try, I'd still be sleeping in a bed, staring at the ceiling, consumed with anxiety, feeling like I had ruined my life. That's how you change your life. You have to take action over and over and over again. And so I think you get this.
You get that you're not going to change or build confidence by thinking about doing this. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, stop thinking and start taking some risks. Start trying. Put a bet on yourself. Let's freaking go.
Now let's do rule number two. Rule number two is if you personally just tremble in your boots when you think about doing the things that you'd love to do. Let's get back to you. Let's get selfish. What is it that more confidence would have you be doing differently?
When you think about those things, speaking up at work, launching your business, tackling your health issues, putting your online dating profile up and getting yourself back out there because you're ready and you've healed and the heartbreak is over and you're ready to have some fun again. When you start thinking about how confidence would change your life, I guarantee you, you're still going to feel a little nervous. So here's a second tool that's going to help you try.
You can use the power of objectivity. Okay? Let's make it less personal. Be the person you want to become or create an alter ego. This can be fun, you know.
We don't have to like white knuckle this confidence thing. Let's have some fun with it because there's a study out of Johns Hopkins that I love and it's about letting go of self-doubt. And the study suggests that when you use an alter ego or you create a vision of the future you, the person you wanna become, it gives you. distance from the scaredy cat you who's never done this thing before.
So ask yourself, you know what I always ask myself? I go, well, what would The Rock do in this situation? I just love Dwayne Johnson, The Rock.
I constantly use him as my avatar when it comes to confidence. What would The Rock do in this moment? And I always get an answer, and it feels less personal because you and I are friends. You can use The Rock.
You can use me. What would Mel do if you're feeling unsure and you want to tap into the confidence that you kind of pick up on for me? And this also taps into an entire body of research that I talk about a lot on the Mel Robbins podcast, which is behavioral activation therapy. Decades of research show. that when you start acting like the person you want to become in the future now in your present life, it's one of the fastest ways for you to change your mindset, for you to create new habits.
Why? Because when you start acting like the person you want to become in the future, you start acting like that person today, what are you doing? You're trying.
You're trying to act like the future you would act. So let's go back to our first question. Heather. When she acts like the Heather two years from now, who's now gotten another promotion because she just slayed it in this role, the Heather today is trying to be the Heather she wants to become.
Isn't that cool? Alex sitting in the classroom, surrounded by all these high achievers. When she acts like the Alex she wants to be two years from now, who's earned her doctorate, who is one of those high achievers, who is a bit more vocal, who is able to express her ideas.
When she acts like that version of herself, now what is she doing? She's trying. How cool is this? It all just ladders right back to the research. That's why you can trust what I'm telling you.
Another tool that you can use to build the skill of confidence is prepare. Because the more that you practice something, the more you're trying, and the more competent you're going to be. So if you are nervous and you can't shake the nerves.
Double down on preparing. That's right. Do rehearsals.
Run through it. Why? Because every time you rehearse something, you're trying it, and it gives your mind and your nervous system the ability to lower the stress because your mind and your nervous system have prepared so you know what's coming.
See, practice doesn't make perfect. Practice prepares you. And what's one other thing about practice?
What's the first thing that you learned about confidence? Again, I come back to the definition. It's the willingness to try. That's how you put the definition into life, by practicing. Preparing for something, practicing something over and over and over, whether you're, you know, like the Williams sisters, who literally stood there and hit balls and hit balls and hit balls and hit balls and hit balls before they were even allowed to enter a tournament.
What were they doing? They're building the skill of confidence. You want to be confident? prove it by preparing.
I use this all the time. You know, a lot of people I laugh like, you know, you see me get in front of a YouTube camera or you see me walk onto a stage or you listen to one of my audio books. You're like, how do you do that? I've prepared. Because when you're ready, I mean, just think back in your own life.
Think about those moments in high school or college where you weren't prepared for the test. How nervous were you? You were shaking in your boots. You couldn't even concentrate. You knew walking into the test that you were screwed.
Now think about a moment when you actually studied, which is just you practicing. You feel calmer, more assured. Why?
Because you were willing to try by sitting in the stacks in the library instead of going out and cracking open the books. And that's what I'm talking about. This is something you build.
Let me tell you about tool number four. I love this. This is a mindset reframe.
Because you got the five-second rule. You've got the power of objectivity. What would Mel or The Rock do? You've got preparation.
And now let me give you a mindset trick. I love this. I tell myself all the time why it's worth trying.
The reason why I tell myself why it's worth trying, why is it worth trying something if I'm only going to fail? Why is it worth going for it if I can't make my dreams come true? I'll tell you why.
Because everything that you do in life is preparing you for something that hasn't happened yet. What did I tell you about confidence? Confidence is not something you build when you're winning. I think oftentimes when we're winning, what gets built is arrogance and bravado.
And we forget what went into winning at something in the first place. True confidence, the skill of confidence, it's forged in fire. I mean, I've failed more times than... I have time to tell you. You guys know that a decade ago, talk about failure, 800 grand in debt, unemployed, drinking my way through my problems, and all of that heartbreak and headache and breakdown in my life, which was horrendous to go through, it led me to the five-second rule.
If there was no debt, there was no drinking, there was no heartache, there would be no five-second rule. When I was a talk show host. Here I was taping a talk show at CBS Broadcast Center here in New York City. It was a dream of mine to be able to have a daytime talk show.
It gets canceled. It was leading me somewhere. Where?
To this podcast, which is my most favorite thing that I have ever done in my career. See, I choose not to stay in a place of self-doubt. I choose not to wallow in failure because I know that life is always preparing you for something.
And I know that your greatest failures, your biggest heartbreaks, they always teach you the most important lessons in life. You know, and I keep getting questions from you guys, Mel, oh my God, you're so confident. Like what?
You're 54 years old. You keep reinventing yourself. You keep trying new things like this podcast. What is it inside you, Mel?
What is it inside me? that makes me take all these risks, that makes me constantly try new things, that makes me willing to fail, to do something embarrassing or even disastrous. I'll tell you what it is. I want to get as much out of this life as I possibly can.
And if you look at the math, I'm halfway through it. And it scares me to think that I could be on my deathbed. and look back on my life and say, I wish I had tried that. I wish I had had the confidence to try that. I do not want to die and have regrets.
And so while I'm here, while I'm breathing, while I'm able to, I am going to follow my curiosity. I am going to follow my heart. I am going to try new things. I am going to do absolutely everything that I can do to grow. to feel, to learn.
And that's going to require me to take risks. That's going to require me to fuck up things. That's going to require me to look stupid.
And I'm willing to do that because I know on the other side of the biggest heartbreaks of your life are the most amazing, heart-filled moments. I know that in the middle of every failure that I experience, and boy, I experience them, oftentimes... Of my own doing, every single failure has, honest to God, equipped me with the lessons and the skill or the wisdom that I needed to be able to do something even cooler down the line.
And I can prove it to you. Just look back on one of the scariest moments of your life. One of the biggest things that you just blew. I bet you can tell me that that.
horrible thing that happened, that really hard thing that in the moment you're like, why is this happening to me? That right now, no matter what your life looks like, you can sit here and you know exactly what you learned from it. You know that you would not be the person you are today had it not been for that thing that you experienced, that you survived, that you learned from.
And so what drives me is just wanting to experience as much as I can. from this one life that I have. And it's not all going to be a joyride. And so I'm willing to take the risk.
I'm willing to try. I'm willing to look stupid. And I'm willing to do it because I think the payoff that you get, it's worth it. It's so worth it.
So this moment, it's preparing me for something that hasn't happened yet. And that reframe, what it does is it helps me put failure and heartbreak. and all the hard shit in life into a box that is something that stays by my side as I move forward instead of a wall or a block or an obstacle that stops me from continuing to move forward. Because that's how you move forward.
You continue to try. And the final tool when it comes to building the skill of confidence. is you have to focus on you because nobody's coming. Like nobody's going to try for you. Nobody is going to be there to motivate you to try.
Nobody's going to be there to give you the pep talk. I'm here twice a week. I it really is my mission that these episodes and our relationship through this podcast is one where you feel empowered and encouraged and you're reminded of who you are, that this is like a little reset, a pep talk, that you get the tools and the encouragement and the high five that you need.
But ultimately, it's up to you. And you got to learn how to stop looking at the world around you and what everybody and their mother is doing. And you got to look right back in the mirror.
Because you are the one person that you're going to spend your whole life with. And it's time that you start to focus on that person and getting into a better relationship with that person called you. Yeah, that's amazing. I think that was always like in the back of my head during our conversation was if I'm still, I feel fear in a lot of different areas of my life, not when I'm just in the air.
So when I'm on the ground, how can I use this tool to ground myself, even if I'm not sure the outcome of it? I love this. Okay. Great question. I want you to take out a notebook and you're going to write down any single thing that makes you nervous.
Could be anything. I mean, give me a couple. There's a long list probably.
But off the top of my head, like something that I don't know, I really wish that I could beat the fear on is I recently moved. Not that far, but there's a really nice yoga studio on my street that I like pass every day. And I just always think like I need to be a part of a community of. 20-somethings that are like-minded that, you know, I just, I've always loved yoga. I've loved the community it brings, but I cannot bring myself to sign up and I can't bring myself up.
Like, I just constantly think about the day I have to show up for my first class and it makes me way too anxious to even like go. This is an excellent example. And by the way, incredibly common and very relatable. So I'm really glad you shared it. So you're going to do the exact same thing.
We're going to create a confidence anchor. Because what I hear is I hear you want to do it. I hear it pulling you. And the nerves are keeping you back. So name something you're excited about.
So can you pick a coffee shop in your neighborhood? that you love to go to and it's going to be your treat to get a nice latte when you're done. Yeah.
Do you want me to name it? Yeah, I do. It's called Thinking Cup. I love Thinking Cup.
Now you're going to close your eyes. What color yoga tights are you wearing? Oh God. Maybe like, I have this really nice light blue ones that I always like to wear. I love it.
And as a treat. because you went to this relaxing yoga class in your light blue tights, sweatshirt tied around your waist, yoga bag over your shoulder, standing at Thinking Cup. What did you order?
Probably like an iced oat milk latte. Love it. Love it.
How do you feel? Yeah. As you're walking out of the Thinking Cup, having just completed that class and treating yourself to that, how do you feel right now? Like proud of myself for doing it.
Awesome. There's your confidence anchor. Anytime you feel nervous, you're going to count backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, to interrupt the nerves and create that starting ritual.
And you're going to drop that confidence anchor. And what's going to happen is it's going to slowly retrain your mind. that you're not nervous about joining that yoga studio. You're actually excited. And when you start to practice this confidence anchor, at some point you're going to find yourself walking down the street and there's the studio.
And as that wave, because remember, it's automatic, that automatic response comes up because you're about to do something new. You get to choose whether your brain says no or yes. And using the confidence anchor in this research from Harvard in the five-second rule, you can flip that moment from one of stress to one that's something awesome. Because you have the power.
to make your brain say, yes, I'm excited to do that. And I'm going to walk in today and I'm going to sign up for that relaxing yoga class. And I am going to imagine how great I'm going to feel in my hot, amazing, light blue yoga tights as I sip that oak milk latte and walk out of thinking cup as my reward for getting it done.
And that, my friend, is how you use science to conquer your fears. and create the life that you love. And I have a feeling, Cameron, and I have a feeling for you listening to us too, that this little technique is not only going to help you tee up and knock off one thing after another that you're afraid to do or nervous to do, whether it's jumping on a plane or walking into a yoga studio or asking somebody out or working on your side hustle.
I think what it's actually going to do is not only get you in action, I think it's going to help you reprogram your mind. Because I don't think you realize, Cameron, how much feeling on edge and nervous is a default for you. And how much it's actually holding you back and robbing you of the happiness you deserve.
I know you have a specific breathing pattern that is associated with a calmer mind. Can you teach it to us? I love it so much.
It's the 15 second breath. So if you're having a panic attack, this is going to fix it in two minutes or less. And what researchers discovered is you take twice as long to breathe out.
As you breathe in, it produces an automatic relaxation response in your body. So the pattern is this and um it's four seconds in okay hold it for a second and a half eight seconds out hold it for a second and a half will you walk us through it so four seconds in hold it eight seconds out hold it out and then repeat and i have an app called happy brain h-a-p-i brain and actually has a pacer that does that for you and all you have to do is when you see the circle get bigger breathe in when you see it get smaller breathe out and it's so simple and try to breathe more diaphragmatically or more with your belly. So let the energy of breathing go lower in your body. And if you just practice this on a regular basis, cortisol will go down and you're just going to get flooded with a feeling of calmness and relaxation.
Now you got to practice. You have to create a pathway. in your brain of relaxation. Why does this 15 second breath work? Because it stimulates, encourages your brain to go into a parasympathetic state.
So there's a difference between stress, what scientists call sympathetic state, has nothing to do with sympathy. It's a bad word. A sympathetic stay is where I was on the beach at Corona Del Mar walking my dog and I saw two pit bulls running toward me. Oh my God. Oh my God, right?
So my heart went fast. I mean, it was panic and ended up turning out okay. Well, what happened? Now I'm on the edge of my seat. Did you pick up your dog?
Did they just jump up? Oh, no, he's a big white shepherd. And I got bit.
He ended up in the ocean. Yeah, it was sort of a disaster. I still get triggered sometimes, which we should talk about a little bit. Because in my elite brain training program, it is critical to eliminate trauma, or at least to learn how to dissipate.
trauma because I love walking on that beach so much. So I actually did a session of EMDR. I don't know if you have, but I talked about EMDR.
It's specific psychological treatment for trauma. It's actually really cool. It is, you know, I have my patients write down. 10 of their worst traumas. And then through a specific protocol, I'll have their eyes go back and forth while they bring it up.
And it tends to help dissipate it. It's very powerful. Or when I go on that beach now, I'll often find myself doing this.
And what you're doing is rubbing your hands back and forth. Right. And it's bilateral hemisphere stimulation in my brain, right?
I feel it on one side, then the other side. And that just takes the anxiety that I might associate to that beach and washes it away, which can be so helpful. So many people, they drink to manage their anxiety from past trauma.
They're using marijuana, now more magic mushrooms. And I'm like, no, no, no. There are way better ways to do that that are not potentially toxic for your brain.
Wow. We're going to have to come back and do a whole nother episode on that for sure. How do you calm a very busy brain? So the first simple thing to do is the diaphragmatic breathing, the breathing pattern. that we just talked about.
The second thing that we haven't talked about, but so important, is to direct your thoughts. I was 28 years old before I learned I didn't have to believe every stupid thing I thought. And I'm in class when I was a psychiatric resident at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center, and I heard my professor say that.
And I'm like, no way. Because my mind would fairly torture me. You know, I'm one of seven children.
I was pretty much irrelevant. I have, you know, five sisters. There's a lot of chaos in my family. And my mind would torture me.
And if you start writing down your negative thoughts and just ask yourself whether or not they're true. And there's a whole process I teach my patients. It's just so helpful that I need to be the director of my mind rather than my ancestors directed or the voices of my parents directed or the news or, you know, the gossip at work.
I need to be the director. And, you know, since I want to be happy, connected, purposeful, I often go, well, does this thought fit me being happy, connected and purposeful? And so, you know, Mel, just because you have a thought has nothing to do with whether or not it's true or whether or not it's helpful. You know, everybody has crazy thoughts.
Jerry Seinfeld once said the brain is a sneaky organ. All of us have weird, crazy, stupid, sexual, violent thoughts that nobody should ever hear. And just because you have a thought, it doesn't say one thing about you.
It's just sort of, you know, like the weather. It's not the thoughts you have that make you suffer. It's the thoughts you attach to that make you.
suffer. And when you really understand this, so we talked about the physical functioning of your brain. Well, now we're talking about programming.
Yeah. Let's stop real quick because I want to ask you a question because I want to, I want you to talk to the person that has never considered that they could direct their thoughts or that the things that they think aren't necessarily true. If there's a person hearing this, just like you were 28 years old, sitting in a class when it first entered your mind, other than taking out a notebook and just start to write down the things that are popping in your mind, is there some other way to help someone kick the door open? Because this is a revolutionary and life-changing concept. when somebody first entertains the notion, Dr. Amen, that you can direct what you're thinking about and you can dismiss.
some of the crap that you torture yourself with as untrue. How do you begin this mental training and reprogramming? So I don't have any tattoos, but if I got one, one of the first questions, one of the first tattoos I would get is, is it true?
It's just start carrying that question around in your head. And so when you get a thought, my wife never listens to me. I've had that thought.
If you have that question, then you don't automatically have to attach to it. You can talk back to it. I don't know if you were good at talking back to your parents when you were a teenager, but I was excellent.
And no one had ever taught me to talk back to myself. And so it's, we don't have to believe the nonsense that's going on in our head. Just sort of begin to think about it like the weather and then go, does this thought serve me?
Does it help me? Is it even true? And it's so often the lies we tell ourselves that.
keep us overweight, depressed, and feeble-minded. And it's a revolution, I think, all second graders. I actually have a children's book called Captain Snout and the Superpower of Questions, where I teach kids not to believe every stupid thing they think.
I call them ants, automatic negative thoughts. So you need a little anteater patrolling the streets of your mind. Okay, now I want to give you the six simple steps.
that I use whenever I need to have a difficult conversation. And, you know, as a baseline, I also want to say something else. You should try to have these conversations in person.
And if you can't have them in person, have them on Zoom. The reason why I like having them in person or having them on Zoom is because when you can see the person's facial expressions, it just brings a whole level. of humanity and understanding and connection to these conversations. And there's way too much that can get misinterpreted if you're on the phone or never have this stuff over text or over email.
Do not do that because I think that's a lot of why we need difficult conversations because there is so much that gets misinterpreted with the written word. Okay. So in person on Zoom. So let me give you all six and then I'm going to unpack them using Claudia's example. So step number one, you start the conversation by stating your why.
Step number two, you're going to have a specific singular example of what happened. And then you are going to state how it made you feel. I felt X when this specific thing. happened. Step number four, you're going to listen with your mouth shut.
Step number five, you're going to validate whatever you hear, because whatever you hear is their lived experience. And when you validate whatever you hear, it takes this from an argument back into a conversation. And then six and final. How you end it, how you get out of this, is you state your why again, and if you have any request related to a boundary or a change in behavior, you state it then.
And that's it. So let me unpack this with Claudia's example, okay? So Claudia's why is very simple.
I want to protect my peace. That's her why. Then she's going to have in mind A specific example that happened, and I would recommend that she anchor in on the most recent thing. And based on what she said, the most recent thing is that this friend got really upset with Claudia because Claudia did not return a phone call in the amount of time that this friend expected Claudia to return the phone call.
And so the next piece is after saying, you know, I really want to protect my peace. I want to figure out how we can like remove the friction between us. And I want to talk specifically about when you got upset with me last week because I didn't return your phone call in the amount of time that you thought I should return it. Now what Claudia is going to say is, I felt attacked or I felt triggered. You know, I have a lot of past trauma.
My mom was really erratic. And when you came at me for something that I felt like I didn't do anything wrong, I literally felt like that little kid again that was getting in trouble for, for. Something I didn't do wrong. Like, I don't owe you a phone call back. And that's how I felt when you lashed out at me.
Then you're going to listen. Is there anything that you want to say about what happened? And she might be just vomiting stress at you. Just listen. You know, a tactic that I use when somebody is doing that is I will, you know, I've talked about this on other episodes.
I call it. the snow globe. I imagine the person just inside a snow globe that's shaking up and all that crap coming out of their mouth. I just kind of let it stay in the snow globe with them.
And if you can find one thing to validate, like maybe what you're going to learn is I'm really, you know, I'm, hopefully they apologize. Maybe they don't, but maybe what you're going to hear is, you know, I've just really stressed out and I really needed you and, you know, I had a lot going on and, and I told you that I need you to call me back, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All you're going to say is, I hear you.
You needed me. You told me that you needed me to call you back. I can understand how that would make you upset.
That's it. That's it. And then six, you say your why again.
I just need to protect my peace and I want to remove the drama. And so moving forward, please know I do not return phone calls on demand. And if you need an immediate response, I recommend that you text me and you tell me that you need an immediate response.
And I will at least get back to you to let you know if I can respond or not. And that's it. That's it. That is the anatomy of how you have a difficult conversation.
And your why is the most important part. Because imagine if Claudia went in saying, I really want to repair this friendship. The conversation goes a little bit differently, right? Because when you say, I want to protect your peace, you're basically telling this person, and I don't want, I want to try to like dissipate the drama between us. And so let's talk about what happened last week.
Because when you did that, like I felt this and it makes me not want to text you. It makes, and I don't want that. I want to just dissipate the drama.
You know, what do you need to say? And I'll listen. Listen. validate.
But imagine if Claudia went in and said, I really want to repair this friendship. That has a very different tone to it, right? Your why is everything, which is why you got to know it going in.
And it's why the specific example matters too. All right, now you have very specific takeaways already in this episode for having a difficult conversation. When we come back, you're going to meet a woman who is having a lot of problems with you. her husband's ex and she wants to know, uh, should I even have a conversation with this person? Is this going to be a waste of time or do I need a strategy, Mel?
We're going to tackle that when we come back. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and today you and I are tackling difficult conversations.
How to have them, when to have them, why you need to have them. And up next, you're about to hear from Erica. She wrote in because her husband's ex-girlfriend is making her very present in their relationship, and Erica has had enough. Listen. Hello, Mel.
It is Erica. My husband has an ex-girlfriend with two young daughters. They have been separated for more than 12 years, but she's very controlling.
Thank God we live in a different state, miles and miles away from her. Every time we go visit his daughters and my husband's family, she wants to be present in every single activity. activity.
I always try to be my best to tolerate her, but her petting is ridiculous. What can I do or how I can make this situation better for myself? Thank you. Erica, I love your question and I love you for writing in with this and thank you, thank you, thank you.
And look, first of all, this woman's beef is with your husband and with life in general. it's not with you and you can't fix that. And so number one, I want you to be honest with yourself.
Are you upset because of her or are you upset because your husband will not deal with this head-on? Maybe you're not the one who needs to have the conversation. Maybe your husband needs to have the difficult conversation and needs to start setting boundaries. And the bottom line is, is that if she's upset with your husband or upset with the separation or upset with life in general, you can't fix that.
You just can't. And so I personally feel like what's going to benefit you the most is a strategy. I'll talk about the conversation in a minute that you could have, but first I want to talk about the strategy.
So there are basically only two different things that you can do. You ready? You got to rise above this.
You said I'm trying to, Mel, but there's something about this that is hooking you. And I personally think it's not the ex-girlfriend. I think it's your husband and how he's dealing with this and how he's letting the bullshit slide.
But that's just my assumption. I could be wrong. But for you, rising above it means not letting the ex get her hooks in you.
And there's a great strategy that Dr. Romney, who is the world's leading expert on narcissism, she's been on the podcast twice, and she calls this strategy gray rocking, which basically means whenever you are around the ex, be like a gray rock. You're so boring. You don't even notice.
You're not triggered by anything. You keep your answer short. You're not that interested in this woman's life. You're not trying to be her friend. You just let her pettiness be like water dripping off a gray rock.
And when you're a gray rock, you're also not her target. So imagine a gray rock every time you're about to see the ex. A second way that you can rise above this is look at the ex as a kid. Like every time you see your husband's ex, I want you to see a seven-year-old girl having a ridiculous tantrum. That's what her pettiness is.
She's trying to get your attention, just like a seven-year-old would try to get your attention. I want you to put in your mind. a little seven-year-old version of your husband's ex, put her in a ridiculous little dress-up dress, then stick her inside that snow globe, and every time she does something petty or something annoying or something ridiculous, you're just going to imagine that seven-year-old version of her in a ridiculous little party dress throwing a tantrum because she's not the center of attention and she does that and she gets petty. Because then everybody gets, it's her only way to get power, right? That's her way to get power.
She just loves it when she irritates you. Why? Because now she's the center of attention.
But you're not going to buy into that anymore, are you? Because you're either going to be a gray rock, you're going to be so damn boring that everything just rolls right off you, you're not even really paying attention, you don't add any fuel to the fire, or you're going to kind of giggle at her because she's throwing a tantrum. seven-year-old in her party dress who gets really petty because it's the only thing she has in life.
You know, that's what you're going to do. That helps you emotionally unhook yourself. It helps you stay separate. And that is going to help you not have to have a difficult conversation.
Because I personally think if you're going to have a conversation, you need to have it with your husband. And you need to tell him that he's got to step up because every time he doesn't and she acts petty, it makes you feel a certain way and that it makes you feel like you don't respect him or whatever it may be. It's just frustrating to you.
The other way that you could step into this, if you think about your why, and maybe your why, if you're going to have this conversation with your husband is you can't stand. watching her walk all over him. Or maybe your why is something more powerful.
And here's the more powerful why. His daughters are watching. And kids don't learn by hearing what we say.
Kids learn by watching what we do. And if the why is big enough, that the adults need to rise above this bullshit for the sake of the daughters, that we got to lose this petty crap for the sake of the daughters. Because you know what? Whether you like it or not, the way the ex is dealing with your husband and the way that your husband refuses to deal with his ex, that is modeling of a relationship for the daughters.
And so for the sake of the daughters, you could have the hard conversation with your husband and with the ex, but you got to figure out what... the why is for you. You know, and again, I'm going to say what I said to Claudia.
Maybe this is happening because you're the one that's the bigger one. Maybe you're in all of their lives because you're the one that's going to break the chain of behavior. Maybe you're the one that is here because you're meant to tap into the courage inside you to hold all of you to a higher standard.
And look, maybe the ex isn't capable of it. Maybe there's so much trauma and resentment and she hasn't done the work and it's easier to be angry and petty and all that stuff. Because, you know, when somebody's angry and petty, it's just pain. That's it.
They don't know how to tolerate pain, so they attack people and they're petty and they seek attention. But when you get clear on your why, I wanted to talk to you because I would really love for the sake of the girls for us to rise above this. And when...
X happened, I felt X, and I think we can do better. When you do that, you've got a chance to transform the family dynamic. And remember, you're only going to use one example, and then you're going to give time for your husband or the X to respond.
And two things are going to happen, especially when you're dealing with somebody who's petty or volatile. Either the person is going to listen. And holy shit, they apologize. Like there's something in you rising above the noise that is almost like a hand that helps them step up and rise above the noise. It might surprise you.
You know, you could be the force that changes everything because maybe the ex and your husband have been locked in this stupid ass dynamic for so long they don't know anything else, but you're the one. that could demand something new. Or if when they listen, they don't apologize, they immediately react like that seven-year-old in the party dress, like throwing yet another, how dare you say that?
All you say is calmly, I'm not blaming you. I'm explaining how something made me feel. I'm expressing a concern.
And if you don't have the capacity to hear that, that's okay. Thank you for at least letting me say it because I am committed to being a better example for the girls. You restate your why, boom, you're out.
And you know, some people fight and are petty and pick fights as a way to control you. And some people do it as a way to stay connected to you. And, you know, when you go silent or when you do these things, it triggers them. So they get even more intense.
And in fact, Candace is having this exact problem with her family and she's got to have a really difficult conversation with them to knock it off. Hi, Mel, it's Candace. I listened to the episode about people pleasing and absolutely loved it. I've tried the strategy of taking a pause before answering more than once.
My question is, how do you handle family members who won't accept a pause or a delayed response? What happens when instead of allowing you a pause, the person gets combative or aggressive? How do you stop the guilt from forcing you to answer? Candice, thank you for this question. You know, one thing you might want to do, Candice, is also go and listen to the episode we did about attachment styles, because you might be dealing with somebody who has an anxious attachment style.
And we had an incredibly amazing expert and doctor on that episode. She teaches about attachment styles and that framework might help you and said family member. So that's the first thing that comes to mind. The second thing that comes to mind is I want to make sure that when you say the person gets aggressive, that they're not crossing over into abusive. There's a big difference between somebody getting triggered when you go silent and saying, I need time, and them feeling anxious that they're going to lose you, or they need to stay connected to you, or they got to control you in this moment of uncertainty, and somebody being abusive.
Abusive, you need to get some help. If you're dealing with somebody who's clingy and annoying, that's anxious attachment style. I know it because I have it and my husband often needs a pause when we're kind of in a difficult conversation.
So here's the thing. You said the word guilt and that's why I think you're dealing with an attachment style thing where you need time to process and this family member like wants an answer now and so they get and then you feel bad that they're like hounding you about this. And so you have to double down on your needs.
And here's what I would recommend. I'm going to give you a script that you can take and make your own. And when you request a pause, you're in a conversation, you say, I need to think about it.
Here's what you're going to do. Okay. I want to change this frustrating dynamic between us.
And because you come at me, I need a pause because I feel scared. And here's the tactic you're going to use, okay? Here's the thing that a person with anxious attachment style needs to hear from you. I need a pause, and here's my promise. My promise is I will give you an answer in an hour.
My promise is I will give you an answer in the morning. And if you want to change this dynamic, between us like I want to change it. I want to have a better, healthier connection. I don't want to fight like this.
I want to be able to have these conversations. I need you to not act like that. I need you to not use that tone of voice.
I need you to respect and trust me when I say I need a pause because I'm just going to continue to take a pause. And I am going to tell you how much time I need in order to give you an answer. And what I'm doing is I am helping you use a bridge. So you know like when you're dropping a little kid off at daycare?
What all the experts say that you should do if a kid has separation anxiety is you should say, you're going to have a great day and I'll see you at five o'clock. You're now creating a bridge to when you're coming back. And so if you're dealing with somebody that gets intense or pushy or uses a terrible tone of voice or guilts you to make up your mind, pressures you, you need to create a bridge. I need to pause.
I need to take a moment and collect myself. I'll be back in an hour to talk about this. I will let you know in the morning.
Because now you have let this person know that you are coming back. And so if this is a trigger for them, you are... also helping to repair this idea that people that care about you come back.
But they got to hold up their end of the bargain. They got to realize that their tone of voice, the way they're behaving in this conversation is not acceptable. And that's why you need to pause. And the thing that I want you to understand is you've probably been locked in this dynamic for a while. And you're now doing something different.
So you probably have been locked in a dynamic where they want an answer. You don't have an answer. They start to raise their voice.
You then blah blah blah an answer. This was me and my husband because I grew up with a parent that erupted when they got frustrated. And so I erupt when I got frustrated.
I'm working on it, but my husband then shuts down. And the second that you shift the dynamic, people tend to get more emotionally triggered. And so when you say, look, this is exactly why I'm doing this, because I don't want you yelling at me anymore.
And I need time to think and you need time to calm down. And so I promise you, we will talk about this in the morning. And I love you for respecting the fact that you need time to calm down and I need time to think.
And we will resolve this when we're both a little more clear headed. That's it. You can do this.
Our final question comes from a woman named Carla. And this question is so good because it helps me explain. the real reason why we need to have difficult conversations.
Hi Mel, it's Carla. Can you give me advice on how to approach your partner, friends, family members who have trauma, insecurities, or mental health issues without trying to change them or fix them? I absolutely love your podcast and it's helped me tremendously.
Thanks Mel. Carla, I absolutely love you and your question and I think it's going to help us all tremendously. And what I want to say to you, Carla, is that this is why difficult conversations are important.
Because at the end of the day, it's not about fixing other people. It's about improving dynamics between people that leave you feeling disempowered, worried, or afraid. That's what it's about. It's really not about the other person. So whether you're having a conversation with a friend that goes off the rails at you because you don't call them back, or you're having a conversation with your boss because you're upset about something.
It's not really about the friend. It's not really about the boss or getting more money. It's about you accessing your own self-expression. It's about you finding the courage to make requests so that you feel supported, respected, and empowered.
And it's about you expressing concern or holding boundaries for what you will accept and what you won't accept in your life. And that's why these conversations matter. Because without finding the courage to fully express your highest, most self-expressed self, you will know that you're not reaching your potential.
You will feel that disruption and that discomfort of knowing that there's something that you need to say that you haven't said. And I don't want that for you. And when it comes to family members that you need to have a difficult conversation with, particularly if you're dealing with a family member that is not taking care of themselves, you have to do that in the lane of boundaries.
And you have to do that not from a place, you're right, of trying to fix somebody, because we can't fix other people. We can only express how their behavior or lack of behavior makes us feel. What comes to mind right now is this example from a long time ago in my life, but it's still very much relevant.
When I was in my 20s and Chris and I had just met and we were newly engaged, I met a woman who I became really good friends with at work. And it became very clear that she was struggling with disordered eating. And that became very, very serious when her boyfriend broke up with her.
And for months... She was complaining about the boyfriend. She was complaining about the way that she looked. She was complaining about her body, and I was seeing her wither away. And I would listen, and I would listen, and then I would offer support, and then I would ask her if she thought she should speak to her therapist.
I would ask her if she was worried about her mental health or her eating situation or lack of eating situation, and she would deflect it. And that would make me feel uncomfortable and I didn't know how to bring it up and I was only in my 20s and I'd never really dealt with anything like this and I didn't know how to support her. And then finally, I looked at her one day and I said, I love you.
I'm profoundly worried about you and I feel helpless every time you complain about this relationship that's been over for months and I see you not taking care of yourself. And here's my request. You're no longer allowed to talk about this with me because you're not doing anything to change it.
I will be here to hang out with you. I'll talk about work with you. I'll talk about the books we're reading with you, but I am no longer available for you to vent about this because you're not doing anything. The second you get into therapy, the second you seek treatment, the second you move on, I'm here to support you.
but I feel like by listening to you, I am part of the problem. She cut me out of her life. She didn't want to hear it.
She got a different job, like full Monty. But I'll tell you something. Several years later, and I'm talking probably 10, 15 years later, she reached out via Facebook Messenger and said that conversation was so confronting. And she didn't know how to handle it, but it was a tipping point that got her into treatment.
And so people don't change until they're ready to change. But that doesn't mean that you can't have a conversation about your boundaries. And you need to. If somebody is acting in a way where it's scaring you, you need to say something. If somebody's behavior...
is really alarming you. You can draw boundaries. You know, I'm not going to give you money unless you go into treatment.
I am not going to listen to how depressed you are unless you get back on your medication. I am not going to let you rant about dad who you've been divorced from for 10 years, mom. You need to freaking move on with your life.
I'm not here for that. I'm here for you and your future and the healthy you and the happy you. You can be a stand for that without trying to fix someone. And oftentimes, all of us dancing around on eggshells is keeping somebody in that place.
Sometimes they need you to be the stronger one, not to tell them what to do, but to say, I'm not going to sit here and watch this happen. But the second that you need somebody to drive you to rehab, the second that you need somebody to pay for your therapist, the second that you need somebody to hold your hand through this process, I will be there. But I'm not going to stand by your side as you fall. That is how you talk to somebody.
You talk about your feelings. You talk about your fears. You talk about what you're willing to do and what you're no longer willing to do.
And then the other person gets to make a choice. That's how you have that conversation. Because at the end of the day, that's what these conversations are about. You being your best and highest, most expressed version of yourself. And that's what I want for you.
You know, look, you know what you need to do. The hardest part is starting the conversation. But the longer you put it off, the more uncomfortable it's going to be.
It just builds and builds and builds. Just know it's not going to go perfectly. That's okay. Finding the courage, getting the conversation done, it is so much better than perfect.
Your health is worth it. Your confidence is worth it. Your relationship is worth it.
And you know what? It might just turn out way better than you ever expected. And it will turn out better than you expected. Because now you have the tools to empower you to make it better than you're fearing right now.
Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for checking this video out. And if you like this one, I have a feeling you're going to like this one too. I'll see you there.