if I were trying to earn your respect throughout this conversation if I were to want to come across as somebody that I know what I'm talking about if I was somebody that wants to come across as being high value what do you think's the biggest thing that I should focus on for me to portray that to you it's a feeling and that feeling is warmth if you really want to portray confidence there's the Temptation I feel like you have to be big and you need to be right in their face hey high energy hi impact all the time that does not convey confidence right away it conveys desperation it might convey eagerness it might convey too much soever somebody's just you're you're sitting with me uh or with anybody and you come on super strong that might throw off the equilibrium of the conversation where it's going oh this is this is this is too much I'm just getting to to know you so it's much more easier if you think about the Fe feeling of warmth and what that is and how that sounds and how that resonates with you so if I want to portray confidence uh it's to slow down my words to make sure that I don't upt talk with things it's to make sure that I am pausing correctly with you and making eye contact and having that intention I'm not looking around the room I I'm focused right with you my Chin's up I'm not looking down my shoulders are back and I'm just wanting to engage fully with who you are and who I am and making sure that we match the same frequency rather than coming in hot and heavy why do you think people come on too strong in conversations a desire to be loved A desire to be liked a desire to feel like they are special and they're different from somebody else it's it's just overcompensating most of the time if somebody is you're wanting to project high energy it's different if you're performing in front of a whole bunch of people you're speaking to a bigger audience got it you need to have that energy because it has to be spread over a lot much bigger number of people but if it's just one person you you don't need to come on that it's much easier just to meet them where they are in other words I don't have to I I don't have to come parachute into the conversation I just need to walk up and shake your hand and they need to feel that in your voice and your tone and your tenor and how that operates yeah I mean I've noticed with myself that the lower my self-esteem was at the time the more I needed to fake it in a conversation and try to show up in a way that wasn't who I was because I was so miserable with who with the person that I was I felt that the other person would automatically know that there was something wrong with me um because of the way that I was feeling and then what I realized is you know most people aren't really paying attention to that you actually look more unconfident when you're trying to you know fake it to somebody throughout the course of a conversation like I'm wondering I know for me it helped me a lot to work on myself through other mechanisms Fitness my relationship to myself my personal relationships purpose and so on that that allowed me to be able to I think sit here and be able to have these conversations like this do you think that for you personally is that the way to appear more high value you know high level of self respect Etc or is it just exposure therapy through practice through having conversations like this it's a comfort with yourself exposure helps just by repetition you can only know so much it has to have application but it comes from within I see this a lot of time in at a jury trial so as a litigator I go to court and often I will have a witness or I'm cross-examining a witness who is trying to be somebody they think the jurors and the jury want them to be they want to need to portray some maybe they need to portray sympathy hoping they gather sympathy from the jury but people have a six sense about them we can just tell there's no way to really put words to it but it's very easy to go that person is not being true to who they are something is off something is I can't describe it but I can just feel it I can hear it you know what when you see it and so there's that temptation to be something different than who you are but that typically draws away it doesn't it rarely if ever gives you the outcome that you want authenticity is being exactly who you are on the inside as you are on the outside people it's leave the window fronts for for shopping but don't don't make it your home base of who you are and your personality because eventually it's going to either hurt the relationship that you're trying to have which is based upon a A falsity or it's going to eventually grind you down because after a while it's just going to be friction and and that's going to have a rub and that's going to get worn and that's gonna be hard to you're GNA have that identity crisis further down the road much better to to be who you are now yeah we often have that problem with overcorrection right where if we're feeling a lack of self-esteem we want to overcorrect it by trying to portray that we have a higher level of self-esteem than we actually do and people can pick up on that right way but I will say I think on the the opposite end of that I can tell a lot by somebody when they shake my hand if they have a weak handshake I can just tell like they're struggling they got something going on they have a low level of self-esteem maybe this is me overgeneralizing but but for the most part that's just maybe my perception and my bias and people who walk with and looking you know at the ground when they're walking because I did all of that and I wasn't very confident so do you think in situations like that where people are feeling less confident passive they're maybe not an extrovert but they're trying to appear confident how like in your experience like what's the best way for somebody to bridge that Gap so that they're not turning somebody off by being too passive having a weak handshake looking down but they're also not coming out as this over charismatic person which can be easy for people to pick up on right away it's a it's a balance and that balances specific to context it's specific to the situation and a lot of different factors there's this fear and it's it's a it's a type of psychological threat of identity and that makes you question what if they don't like me what if they don't like who I am is who I am enough in this moment and that causes you to have maybe not the weak handshake but it causes you to to feel down to have that negative energy whereas on the opposite end if you're always always needing to be the person to say something often the person who says the most knows the least you you've been in those boardroom meetings and the person who's always chiming in is typically the person who's least connected with what's going on but the confident person the authentic person knows that they don't have anything to prove so the advice is understand you have nothing to prove your value is exactly what your value is you don't dilute it by saying too much you don't undervalue it by not saying enough so it's this this understanding of I don't have anything to prove not with my words not with my actions I know exactly who I am and that allows you to be able to use pauses more effectively it allows you to have stronger conversations because less is often more when your words are more concentr when you say less confident people know they don't have to have an answer to everything they don't have to say every little thing that comes to their mind the person who's the most knowledgeable in the room typically in that board meeting is the one who says the least and so it's it's it's always the the reverse of what we what we originally think speaking of practicing the pause if you will I know that that can be a very valuable technique when you're in the midst of a high conflict situation you're in the IM midst of a high conflict conversation is learning to take a step back look at things objectively instead of just reacting in the moment you know I talk a lot about relationships on the podcast and it's pretty obviously well known at this point one of the biggest things that destroys relationships is the couple's inability to navigate conflict what are some of the things that you've used throughout the course of your marriage and in your relationships that have really helped you you know use conflict as a way as a mechanism for growth there's several different tools that I use that I have developed over time my favorite and most used is what I also train my clients in uh in litigation is let your breath be the first word that you say so you think of your breath as where a word would be you just put a breath and you lead with that in your sentence so if somebody is going to say something that's going to make you defensive instead of going I didn't say that that's not what I said and you immediately just b boom you've now ratcheted up five levels instead when you have a breath where they say something ugly and you I did not say that now you have way more control now you have a much more firmer grasp so that helps you control yourself another tool or thought that I allow myself to use uses I just picture words that are not helpful I just let them fall to the ground I I you you picture as their words coming out if they're not helpful they just fall we have this fear that we have to catch every single thing that somebody says as if it's tennis we have to hit it right back it's baseball we got to catch it we got to swing some pitches are balls not everything is a strike and so if you're just swinging at every pitch that's thrown it's going to Tire you out it's going to frustrate you it's going to frustrate the other person and you're going to hit a foul you know if we're going to go with the baseball metaphor here and so when you have the ability to understand just because you said something does not mean I have to say something not everything you said deserves a response you don't have to attend every argument that you're invited to there is a wisdom and a peace and a comfort and a confidence that comes with knowing I don't have to say anything that I don't want to say and often that gives you an immense sense of confidence going into the conflict I know you're a big fan of Chris Voss as well um he's been on the podcast or he talks he talks a lot about tactical empathy I know you're a fan of that as well for people who aren't as familiar you know with that term maybe they didn't catch that episode um like why do you think that's so effective when trying to dissolve a not only just conflict but to bridge relationships closer together well I know Chris could explain better than me but what I understand tactical empathy to be is really informative empathy let's say it that way by understanding the other person's struggle by being who you are as a human it makes you easier to relate to them and be curious to create that connection so if he uses that a lot by labeling and by mirroring so if you were to say something to me and um I don't know let's let's let me come up with a sentence if somebody says you always talk that way to me when we're in front of people I could respond with in front of people yeah in front of people and they and they will give you a whole another paragraph and then you do it again and you continue to listen and while you're listening you are having that empathy of that must not feel great no it doesn't feel great and they keep on talking to you you I bet that that probably makes you feel bad like if I were you I'd feel I'd feel rough about that I apologize and and they'll use that you use it as a way to continue to roll with it but the word tactical is really um I think just kind of a a sexy word for it but it's to me it's just it's way that somebody's feeling informs you of the empathy that you can use in that given situation right because at the end of the day I feel like when people are in some sort of argument the other person just wants to be felt and heard they want they just want acknowledgement that's mostly it they they you don't even as long as you acknowledge somebody you don't have to agree with them agreement is typically not what they want they just want to feel like you understood them I think one of the biggest problems with with some of the stuff that we're recently talking about is people want to feel like they're they're respecting themselves and they're standing up for themselves they're not letting people walk all over them in conversation and some of the stuff that we've been talking about over the last few minutes is really how to make the other person feel hurt how to not pour gasoline on the exist existing existing fire with our words in the context of speaking with authority and conviction and standing up for yourself to somebody what have you found to be an effective way to do so without being disrespectful well I see two sides of that question you know is what we just talked about the person's desire to feel acknowledged to feel heard and you can do that with phrases like that's helpful for me to know I've learned that X is important to you or I understand that this is important to you and you can lower their barrier that way but to continue to stand up for you there's got to be a boundary there's a lot of I'm going to use the word peace that in Clarity that comes with putting a frame around your life and around the conversation that means you are focusing what is in it and excluding what is not just like you would put a piece of frame a frame around a piece of art you are enhancing what's inside it so if you want to put up a boundary with somebody somebody's pushing your buttons you need to say no you need to stand up for it you're using assertive language so I what I like to give it for people is you're giving them a manual rather than giving them a remote so instead of letting them control your behavior by pushing all your buttons you're telling them I don't accept the way you talk to me so there's a difference in saying you can't talk to me that way I don't allow people to speak to me that way so um or even stronger somebody says you can't speak to me that way I don't respond to that like it's just this shift of this reactive uh versus responding in a way that keeps you grounded by having a boundary of what's important to you and how you're going to speak how you going to assert yourself in the conversation so in real time if if if you and I let's just pretend we're actually having coffee right now yeah coffee sounds good I need some and you say something to me about something and I go that sounds really stupid of you what would be the instead of you what would be like the real time like response to me in that situation so there's two two that come to mind um let's assume that we are friends that we know each other we're good my immediate reaction would be was was that meant to be hurtful or are we just being funny get that to clarify I'm giving them that Grace of I know you didn't mean to I know you didn't mean to insult me now if we're not friends I'm going to let that linger give it five seconds of quiet and then repeat what you just said or ask you to repeat what you just said so if you said some and for example if I just had quiet I could say so that sounds that sounds stupid to you all I'm doing is repeating it and then like go who what I meant was blah so but what you're doing is saying hey this is I'm standing here I'm standing right here uh and I'm not I'm not moving so understand if I don't like something I will push it back rather than me continueing to carry your words and me feel less and less and less of myself so we talked about like how like the biggest asset you can have is using your breath and practicing the pause before saying anything in the midst of high conflict situations or Sation like we just um went over is the opposite also true because you hear a lot of people and I've definitely been guilty of this it's like the tick for attack like somebody says something to you and you try to one up with them with something else and it's just this never ending battle to the bottom right right yeah the race to the bottom is exactly what it is is that the biggest mistake you see people make is just this tick for tack approach when they're yeah it's this perception that you have to win the argument when my advice is is always never win the argument that's winning an argument is not a thing if you win an argument you've You've Won contempt you've You've Won regret uh You've Won resentment it's there's it's a lose lose game um what you've really lost is that person's respect you might have lost the relationship the connection that you once had because you thought that saying that hurtful thing was going to make you win it was going to end the conversation like in a negotiation the advice is the person who speaks loses right well in a relationship you want to build it's typically the person who speaks last loses because you went too far you you you ratchet you ratchet so as soon as let's say you said something to me Doug that was at a louder Tone If I go louder than you in my mind I'm winning got to beat you well I've now just done two things I've Justified your ability to go even louder I've also just confirmed every fear that you had about me i' I've now confirmed every thought you had I am rude I am ugly because I haven't denied it I've just given you all the tools and resources to feel even more afraid so it's it I'm I am it's like it doesn't make sense to me that how would you respond to a threat with a bigger threat often that just that does not create connection with the other person it it it doesn't it just makes them not like you more U so that's that's that's kind of the advice that I always fall back to is that if you win an argument your priorities are in the wrong place it is a it is a race to the bottom uh whenever you just ratchet it eventually it hits a Tipping Point you know the the sympathetic turns into the parasympathetic the ratchet the fight ORF flight you did something to you fought too hard you threw that very hurtful word and now it's the cooling point where you feel regret you feel dread you feel sad and you got I just feel bad about the whole thing and then you focus on what matters but you should have done it in reverse yeah there's nothing that drives somebody more nuts like in the midst of a high conflict conversation is when when the other person says like nothing you know they kind of walk away and it really drives that I can't believe they're not reacting and responding yeah to how I am right and it's like it's like like sometimes when you send like a hurtful text another person just doesn't respond you just more more and more somebody answer because you wanted that dopamine right you wanted that like you wanted that like ah yes they are fighting back with me and you feel powerless now because you feel like that person has gained authority over you because they're not giving in exactly to what you want like why why are we so dri driven to not walk away from arguments even though deep down we know that that's how we gain respect authority value through somebody else's eyes is been is by knowing when to walk away yeah absolutely yeah what's what's worth your time uh and and exactly right you can you can shoot that text that you thought was a Zinger right you thought you just sent that Zinger of a text and then they don't respond to it and all of a sudden when 5 minutes 10 minutes 20 minutes go by it feels less and less like a Zinger and more and more like you're wearing you know the dummy hat of like why did I send that ah this doesn't make and now you're frustrated now you realize oh they just have full control over my emotions now I feel like I'm you know I'm not anywhere where I need to be you all meanwhile they look like they're calm cool and the bigger person and do you think that's like an ego thing that like people they just they their ego gets in the way their their self-esteem gets in the way and that's why they feel they just can't walk away and they they feel that if they're not winning this argument or being quote unquote right that it's just a reflection of how they feel about themselves that's part of it I think it's part of a bigger picture it has a lot to do with your upbringing I think and just what you saw as conflict it's some people I grew up in Homes at my house my parents didn't really argue in front of us they went in another room you know if they needed to have some words there are other people who had it all out right there in the open didn't matter where they were could be at a restaurant it could be at the house it could be in front of other kids so conflict looks different to other people and they've some people have grown up in that very toxic argument Behavior where they do say the terrible things where they they understand the really bad arguments as a process of feelings or to get it out so it's it's it's relative really to how they grew up so ego is part of it but I a lot I think too is what they learned and imitated to see as their measure of this is how to handle conflict they they weren't taught or equipped better ways what do you think gets in the way of that is it when somebody wasn't raised in a way that modeled healthy conflict they get into conflicts as adults a lot of times there's physical symptoms that come along with the conflict because you're in fight or flight mode do you think that is harder for people to deal with or is it the the lack of um understanding on healthy conversation tactics in the midst of something like that I think the behavior is is learned I I mean I don't think yeah we're born we're born to say no you to not like I got two kids I didn't need to teach them how to argue with me they just did it you know you want them to have this certain food no I don't I don't want this it's the their favorite word growing up no uh that doesn't need to be taught it's just within our our our system but the people who that's what they grew up with are these toxic behaviors I think are much more prone to not knowing how to handle it on the other side there are people that were taught it they just find that when they behave a certain way they get their sense of power they get their sense of ego they get they think this is what success is they think this is what it is to achieve and to overcome and be machismo with it all you know I I think there is a a a fine line between using what you know and falling back to what what you think works speaking of being charged I know throughout the course of your life you've struggled with anxiety panic attacks Etc it's recent in like the last two years yeah well I mean over the LA I mean I know it exacerbated for you I believe right when you started your Instagram Channel and things started to really pick up right uhuh yeah when it started blowing up where did that all come from and how did you begin to diffuse it in a way where it wasn't bringing you down so much I'm one of these people Doug that I will I'm a thinker I'm a internal processor I think a lot on things whereas my wife talks all the time out loud that's how she processes I'm the opposite and when social media was starting to take off totally unknown to me because this is not why I got into this space I never had ever the goal still of gaining followers or this is what I want to be it just started happening and that was overwhelming in some sense terrifying because this time last year you know I didn't I might have had maybe 200,000 followers which I thought was just absolutely Bonkers and then within a course of a week I was gaining I had gained over a thou a million I was gaining over 100,000 followers a day just randomly uh about this time last year and I didn't know what to do with that I didn't I just the number just kept going and but I felt extremely exposed that was the that's what did it I felt very alone and very exposed because I was not prepared for this I did not expect this and nobody in my life can relate to it as much as my family my best friends they don't get it they it's not it's not happening to them and we don't see you know I don't see a million people in a room all of a sudden but they're there so that just felt very Alone um that night at the kitchen table yeah I mean I'll blame it on the Rock that's fine but uh he'll take it like when I saw that he started following me it was commenting on my stuff it was like I just I kind of got dizzy for a second like what what is what what is happening I I I make videos in my car what are you talking about and it was late at night at the kitchen table and then that's when it just all a sudden the way I explain it is I felt like somebody just wafted a sheet of paper in front of me like I felt a cool breeze almost and then all of a sudden my ears started thumping I mean you know it and I had never felt that feeling before I was convinced I was dying told my wife I was absolutely dying and the way I've dealt with it is the one recognize when it happens it's a very familiar feeling like you know when it's happening once you've had it once you know and then breathe is the number one thing that helps for me I started therapy uh for it and as work I've worked through that I did that for about eight months and breathing is the biggest thing that helped I just felt alone I didn't I didn't know anybody anywhere around me where they've called themselves an influencer even though I don't even like that word and I just I couldn't talk to anybody like hey what do you do how do I what do I do with this now there's a lot of that do you think if you had had other people in your life life that were in the creative space at that at that time you would have still felt alone or do you think because a lot of people when they get to that point when they have a lot of success Fame Etc they talk about this how they feel way more alone than they ever did before yeah it's it's it's different in the sense of I'm not really I'm I'm followed in the social media world but I'm not a celebrity it's like this hyper reality of like I'm not I can go out the wherever I want and some people might recognize me because of social media but most of all I'm not I got Paparazzi around me I'm not that kind of type it's not I'm not even anywhere close to that so it is I could see how that could be much more lonely versus in my life I still go to the law firm I still work cases I still do regular stuff nothing in my life has changed zero uh aside from the number that was on my phone the digits and pixels that showed a number show a different number that's much bigger um but it was it was just that I if I known other people who had large followings then then yeah I could I could probably feel better about it but there's not like a Blog it's like oh hey you you blew up and and are now have millions of followers here's what to do next you there's just no there's no none of that for me but so who was a big still is kind of been a a big brother type to me was uh Andrew huberman so he he started following my stuff and we got to talk and I was like man can I just like use five minutes of your time he's like absolutely within like 30 minutes he and I are on the phone and he's honestly just making me feel more normal like what's what's happening and so I'm always I'll always be grateful to him for that yeah I know Andrew he's a great guy super great guy what was it that made your account take off was it a specific reel was it a specific couple of reels like do you are you able to pinpoint anything so it was about this time last year that I was starting I was just now starting to post once a week I was doing it like once every two weeks and then I started to slowly do it once a day well out of nowhere I had this is what happened I had three videos I had posted two weeks before all just start going nuts and they were all feeding off each other and then they all in the millions of views and then everything just started it was all it was it was my stuff was getting shown to whatever you call it your for you page or your your other stuff where it's your non-followers and they were just following it like crazy and I related to I was like there's been a mistake because all of my analytics went quiet I didn't see any more follows I didn't get a single it was all gone I was getting notifications of just like follow follow follow follow follow follow but there was Zero analytics and then for days later I saw it it was like a huge Spike where i' gained like 120,000 followers that day and then the next day it was like everything was over 100,000 on followers for like a solid week and a half I just thought so I thought Instagram messed up I thought in my view like you know that scene in a movie where like the security guard late at night like has a bunch of screens and then he falls asleep and his coffee pors on the like keyboard you know it was like that that's that's what I was confident I was like somebody mistake but that's what happened is all all the same stuff I think it just it found the right message to the right people which videos of yours seem to relate most to your audience to the algorithm to the people that follow you the ones that seem to do most who well to to the let's just say the algorithms form of success are ones that are conflict driven so if I'm dealing with a bad argument you're dealing with somebody who's narcissistic you're dealing with somebody who is a difficult personality uh the the hard stuff the ugly stuff the difficult Stuff how to maneuver those types of things tend to go tend to hit more but I'm I'm hesitant to to talk too much about narcissism I I'll do a video about that like every five weeks ago you know five six weeks or so I just feel like it's too much of a dynamite for some people you know it's just some people that they make it their whole page all about that like we didn't even have this word I feel like two years ago it's wasn't even it was even a real word so I gotta you gotta be careful too many people are real quick to just paint somebody as a narcissist just because they said something they don't like so I'm very very cautious uh about using that word yeah it becomes desensitized now for the people that actually are dealing with somebody who's like a diagnosed narcissist now their voice isn't heard as loud because you know it's be it's been the word's been so Overexposed I don't think I've seen any DM from somebody who just said you know hey I am going through something with a regular ex a nice ex of mine no it's always a narcissistic ex every time it's whoever is not in my life anymore or who is anymore it's it's always a narcissist so I I'm not going to say they they haven't been diagnosed I'm just saying there is a a sense of discernment you need to come into that conversation with and for somebody who has a lot of followers and gives advice that's just all the more responsibility to be very careful with your words and so for for more difficult scenarios like the ones that you're talking about harder conversations people who are quote unquote difficult is is it the same PlayBook take the breath practice the pause it's the same thing yeah it's it's a lot of the same thing except you just you know when to walk away very quickly uh because there words can be much more harmful um understanding that when you're dealing with somebody who's a narcissistic type it is a game in a sense they either want to provoke you or they want the praise from you and there's a a a line that that comes with that so it's more of informing them when they're in those situations and giving them a sense of just because you walk away does not mean you're a bad person just because you need to step away from a conversation does not does not mean that you've lost you know often that's it's You've Won you've won that your peace of mind what are you walking away from or what are you walking away with that's that's that's the difference obviously in your line of work it can be easy to feel manipulated feel like your reality can be warped and that maybe your truth isn't your truth you question whether or not what you're thinking is actually what's going on because of just the Dynamics of a court case or maybe what's another lawyer might be saying to you or whatever and I think this also happens a lot in these more difficult conversations where because of the words of somebody else and what what they're saying to them the person could have started out great felt confident felt you know like they had a level of self- respect but now they're like oh no like maybe is this person right like am I really doing those things how do how do you you maintain that balance to where you are able to understand whether or not somebody's words to you are actually true and that you know you're not questioning your own reality in that situation well that touches on the elements of gaslighting right have somebody actually coming in and trying to take advantage of you by by distorting your sense of reality and and Truth what comes to mind is twofold really you maintain that balance by understanding who you are and loving who you are often we want to look to other people for that validation of of love because we have a hard time loving ourselves and the more you are good with who you are the more you're okay with I'm okay if you misunderstand me I'm okay you know if if that's what you need to you go do it I'll let you but that doesn't mean that I'm going to take down anything else that I have so there's that that sense of loving who you are the second end of that is to be firm often when I talk about it in terms of people who want to break up your self-esteem who try to Gaslight you in certain ways it's somewhat like the laser pointer with a cat right they they want to jump you from place to place to place even though you get there and there's no laser it's it's all just distraction it's it's manipul it's man manipulation in that sense you need to stand still and be still one of the best ways to do that is to use phrases that I I teach are I remember things differently I see that differently I I take another approach you it's often just using and repeating the same phrases eating means that you're standing still because they might bring something up to you and you have that KNE reaction and go that's not what happened that's not what I said that's not true well you're just jumping around to where they want you and it's it's not where that is versus if I just repeat what I said I see things differently they want to distract you you just repeat I say things differently you're standing still it's like the person who's not responding to that text you're saying I got I got control over me and that's the only person who does do you think there's benefit to saying it's one of one of the things I've used in the past is like it's okay like you have your truth I have my truth you have your perception of reality I have my perception of reality neither or right or wrong but we're GNA have to agree to disagree on this like do you think that saying something like that can be effective or am I not being assertive enough it depends on the situation you know it depends how how much this person matters to you often I like to use an opening of is this something we have to agree on I use that a lot I say a lot I mean I use that as a opening frequently is is this something we have to agree on almost always the answer is no because then it it it Keys you into priority is this is this something that matters is this something we really want to fight over the second answer is if it is something you need to agree on the question is is that something we need to agree on now at this exact moment at this at this exact second or if we wait until tomorrow or next week it is the world going to shut down and so it is a um timing is a big aspect because often people will try to push you into conversations and the problem you fall into is when you agree to get into the ring when you're not ready you're tired you're hungry you know you're not you're not you haven't worked out that day you have you have built up built up tension you don't go into the match if you're not prepared for it so often you're just not ready so you need to you need to make sure that when you are it's the conversation happens on your schedule not theirs and is there anything that somebody can do beforehand before entering into a a planned discussion that may get heated like for instance if people who are dating get into some sort of argument they're like let's take some space come back in an hour two hours whatever is there any kind any kind of best practices for being able to make sure you're coming together in a healthy way what I uh try to tell people is use a frame around the conversation you you frame it which is somewhat similar to to others who talk about this but it is calling your shot is what I say it like a like an old baseball player you're pointing into to the left field going that's where we're going so right at the beginning of the conversation say I want you to know that before we talk about this at the end of this conversation that's key at the end of this conversation I still love you I still care about you I still want to be friends I still want to do this and then you go into so here's what we want to talk about so you make it very short and concise of what you are to talk about but what you're doing is eliminating the unknowns often somebody in a conversation you have start to feel fear of like if I say what I really want to say am I going to lose this person uh you you remove that barrier when you say hey we're I want to have a discussion with you about X Y and Z but just know at the end of it I'm still going to respect who you are we're still going to choose to love each other and it's like you're getting their permission and their acknowledgement and now they know the parameters now they know the discussion it's much harder when you go hey we need to talk talk about what anything you know how does it end who knows yeah that's that just that all it does is bring anxiety of I have no idea where we're going and so that's what you're leaving an open pasture for you just to Ram that's the conversation lasts forever because there's no fence you just you're just going wherever it goes and then you realize wow where did this even start how did we even get to this point so if you uh come in from a a a frame you're going to be much stronger because you're giving people less choices like if you're going to like as a kid you know pick out a pair of shoes if you have like 30 shoes on the wall you're going to take a whole lot more time but if I give you two here's the two subjects we want to talk about that's much easier to digest and then it makes conversations feel a lot more productive once you've chosen one you know you I know you probably don't want to be overly um structured with some of these conversations especially if it's like in a romantic sting but do you think that there's benefit to having some sort of time limit within that frame so that the other person makes sure that they're feeling heard too and they don't feel like the other person who maybe is setting the tone for the conversation is taking up a bunch of time to talk and then now you know an hour has gone by somebody's got to go to work somebody's got to take care of the kids whatever the example is do you think there's effect there's a is an effective way to make sure that both people can hear each other out yeah I I mean one tactic is to say okay I'm going to let I'm giving you five minutes here's my phone we're gonna agree you get five minutes to say whatever you want to say and I'm not gonna say a word whatever is on your mind about this you get to say it all and then I get five minutes I get to say all that I want and then after the end of it that's the end of it we're not going to bring it up again you know I mean you you get to lay those parameters as as a couple as a relationship of if that works for you or not but what it does make sure is of is you get to say what you want and I'm not going to be defensive about it we're both just gonna bent pour it out get it out because often that's all you needed to do anyway is just to get it out what about like non-physical cues body language we talked at the beginning when when somebody's trying to in conversation you know gain Authority respect Val you know value from somebody eye contact chest up shoulders back I mean you also hear a lot about people who like you they cross their arms that can that can give off a certain so what are some some tips you have for body language well again it it depends on the person you know who you how familiar you are like I know when my brother is mad you know way before anybody else knows you know I you you know of sisters who can like come home from a first date and you're like she hated them as soon as she walks through the door they just know so crossing the arms yeah that's That's a classic just closed any closed position where either my body's turned away from you my face is turned away from you my eyes are looking away from you anything that says I'm not wanting to directly engage that doesn't all the time mean that you're not wanting to engage maybe you're thinking of something maybe looking at somebody's eyes bothers you I'll tell people typically try to try to look at their eyebrows people can't tell the difference so if that that really sets you off you can look at their eyebrows and they really won't know um especially if you're standing farther farther away people who have a bigger breath so they I mean that's just that longer big exhale that you can tell okay they're they're not in a good they're not in a state of mind maybe they're fence fist or clinch or they're real fidgety but again if you maybe if you have ADHD that's you're on a whole different Spectrum yeah I mean you're not gonna be able to yeah that's much harder to that's much harder to tell so it's it generally just goes with Vibe like in my view everybody comes into an argument or a conversation with a particular frequency just like a radio station can you tap into that radio frequency turn the knob and and get there or not so that's that's the that's the real cue how do you show up in conversation like what are some things what's your body language like when you're getting ready to sit down for an uncomfortable discussion with somebody smile that's my because it makes me happier it's not really so much for them it's for me I need I I I want to feel like I am at all times positive confident and settled so you have to think in your mind the values you want to portray so there are things called conversational values that I'm a big proponent of that is every time you get into a conversation what is the value that you're wanting to stand by like a company has their own values they have their own brand that people know them by because that is the corporate message that they have sent out for their company same way applies to you as in your human body that I apply my values what I want to be so one of my values is where there is room for kindness I will use it any time if there's space anywhere in that conversation for kindness I will choose it period I don't care if they've been ugly to me is there space for kindness that's what I'm going to do then it's not a question I don't have to think about what I say I know that my value drives my action so another one that I have is if I can't be a bridge be a lious that's fine if they need to if they need to go away from me if we don't need to talk anymore that's fine but you know what I'm still G to be I'm still G to be light I'm still gonna be positive I'm still gonna be somebody who you know is here in case you need me so these values of conversational values help you show up more as you because these values align with who you are is as a person so you have to think whatever I'm wanting to portray it does not work unless it becomes you like that's who I want to be in this conversation I we talked earlier about like somebody who's portraying this false sense of confidence they're you know overly charismatic they're just talking loud you know for no for no reason all these things is there a way that the average person could pick up of somebody's being fake to them when somebody's just not telling them the truth other than let's just say that they're not overly charismatic is there like I mean there was that there used to be that thing where if they look to the right or the or something they weren't telling the truth I don't know if that's that's that's a a thing or not like what are your thoughts on that yeah there's thought there's ones of like if you look a certain direction that means like you're thinking or trying to find information if you look another way trying to hide it I don't I don't know how valid that is but I know that typically you can tell if somebody is not being them their authentic authentic self is if you can just sense it in the little bitty details so maybe it's the way their eye looks right after they say something maybe it's uh the way their inflection is you know if you ask somebody a question they go um yeah you know like that that makes it sound like you're not you're not nearly a sure or maybe they laugh a certain way that they typically don't laugh like or something feels forced it's often the the cue now this that smile felt forced that laugh that word that intonation in your voice felt forced and if anytime it's forced it means it's not natural and that that just feels that feels out of place um with people one way often you can call out that kind of behavior not really call it out but inspect it a little closer is to ask somebody to repeat what they said that usually will because they have to like oh I I got to re okay now I got to get in the mindset again now I got to rehearse I just gave it to you okay now i' got to do it again and then you're you're making them uh realize that there's a a start contrast in their behavior so that that happens pretty frequently especially in in my world in litigation when you're conversating with somebody do you lose respect faster when you can tell somebody's not respecting themselves or when somebody says something disrespectful to you when somebody says something disrespectful to you if I can if you don't respect yourself that's a that's a place for me to show you Grace and kindness and patience like yeah I'll give you time for that I understand yeah you shouldn't have said that this is what I'm thinking yeah you shouldn't have said that but I'm G to let it go you know you shouldn't have said it versus if they say something like much uglier that was only meant to hurt again it pretends on it depends on context but yeah you can lose you can lose respect for them much faster when they choose harm over healing do you think conflict can be settled at all through text messages or online messaging or do you think with when it comes to friendships professional relationships romantic relationships it's always going to be best to hop on the phone video chat iners meeting yeah I mean they can be if you and the person are mature and intelligent and give each other the benefit of the doubt and not make a you know Mountain out of a molehill but if you're not or if you don't know each other that well always much wiser to just pick up the phone let them hear your voice U that makes a a a big difference I I do it count I me I do all the time text text with my wife and oof I got a response that felt very cold um you it anytime you get the K text just K oh well okay she they're ready to destroy me you know my life is over I just got a k or an m k an m k like there's all different ways that we go oh that doesn't sound that doesn't sound good it depends on the person like my dad my dad will just text okay to anything really you you send him I just know that's him and I'll call him and he'll be like oh that's fantastic but you know the text you got so it it just depends on the person but yeah you're never going to go wrong getting to hear their voice and besides a lot of times like hearing your voice can make somebody's day we we were we are meant to hear and connect and speak as humans to it's not good for humans not to talk to other humans I was always there's that show I forgot what it's called it's like they go up they send them to Alaska for like say spend a 100 days alone in Alaska oh yeah I know what you're talking about yeah and for and at first they love it they're so excited they build their shelter they're like oh yes I just you know got I just harvested this uh rabbit and I'm doing all this but by like 20 days they're like I haven't spoken to anybody I miss my friends I miss hearing people's voices it's it's the loneliness that gets them it's not their capability I I was just found found that really interesting what are some subtle ways that people can sound more intelligent they're speaking and like sometimes people when they'll say when you'll hear people say if somebody says like a lot or um that they they don't sound as intelligent I say I say like a lot num and I'm like I think I still am pretty pretty smart but I know I can get better so what are your thoughts on just some some subtle ways people can improve yeah you want to try to eliminate filler words the best you can but it depends on context so if you and I are just talking and I'm just being casual say Laing them as much as you want but if you're in front of a presentation a group of people and you need to persuade like and un become distractions that's the problem it's not that they're not comfortable everybody uses them it's that they're distractions that distraction is telling you I'm not confident I'm not knowledgeable I'm nervous and people start to pick up on those little bitty things so all you need to do is just replace that filler with silence and you sound a thousand times more confident then it sounds intentional but yeah it's it doesn't mean that there's something bad about them I I mean I use them in just normal everyday speech but it's when you want to when you're on a different level of conversation with somebody that it makes a difference so if you're like my boss or something you see how I just said that if you're like my boss then if I need to approach you about a salary or whatever I come up to you and I say um yeah okay so like I am okay here's the thing I like am really concerned about my you've lost them yeah you you just wasted 12 seconds of them going okay whatever com is coming out of your mouth I'm already not wanting to hear it or if you say uh hey I hate to bother you great you just told them I what I'm about to do is bother you so so buckle in you know there's these just phrases and ways to talk that there aren't going to be the best foot forward if you want to come off with confidence so the best way is just to be direct like if you were talking to your boss and you wanted a raise saying something like hey want to talk to you about something that's super important to me I I would even make it more specific I I'd like to talk to you about my salary when's the best time we can visit okay you know just just right out of the gate and there's no question because you have to think of from their point of view as a as a as somebody who's of the employer side what what are they thinking they don't want to be blindsided either uh so why why do you make it to where you wait until your face to face for them to have any clue of what you're talking about you need to be able to prep them for that conversation you need to let them massage it let them think about things so the more specific the better and you think it's better just to leave with that out of the gate sometimes people will put a buffer at the beginning like hey hope hope you're doing well hope you had a great weekend hope blah blah blah you just think it's just like be direct with it yeah exactly yeah yeah because it they know that's not that doesn't matter they know it it's the same way with delivering bad news right if if you're going to deliver bad news same delivering bad news is the same way of delivering sensitive want to have a sensitive conversation with somebody if if you are I need to deliver bad news and I say hey so how how are you so how you been I know I know yeah you're doing good you feeling all right okay okay well I got I got some things to tell you and I mean you're just going just making them Twist Off In The Wind of going okay what's what's happening what's going on here are you are you quitting are you not quitting what's what's going on versus if you come out right out of the gate with bad news they say to you go I got bad news and give it a two-c beat I need to let you go well now now they know great but if if you have need to have a sensitive conversation about something it's much easier to say hey I need to talk to you about what you said at the party on Friday when's a good time to talk that' be very specific and then then they know then they're prepared instead of just the vague text we need to talk period nobody likes that nobody loves that text we need to talk talk about what yeah be more specific and if the other person doesn't respond to that do you give them any time window before like I mean like for instance like if it's a relationship situation you're texting somebody like hey I'd like to speak with you about what you said to me on Friday and they don't respond to you about it or they beat around the bush or whatever do you follow up with them them about it in a few days few like a week like how does how do you handle that sometimes that does happen yeah well it depends how much that person matters to you but the fact that they don't want to interact should mean maybe you've made a mistake on how high up that person is on your priority list or how important you are to that person because often you know people people will want you for what you give them not the other way around and so if they're not willing to talk with you and reason with with you and and empathize with you and listen they may not be your person they they just they might just want to use you for whatever I I I feel like if they're not one to engage that is a big red flag of they don't value you as much as you think they do which is a hard realization how some people just might they might miss the text they might not get it they might try and push it off but understand if it's if it's important to you it should be important to them that's a great place for us to end our convo so Jefferson thank you so much for your time really appreciated this conversation um if people want to learn more about what you're doing if they want to follow along with you on social media where's the best place to do that you can go to Instagram Facebook wherever search Jefferson Fisher you'll find it I have a law firm where I help people in personal injury called Fisher firm uh yeah so I'm there awesome man well thank you so much once again for coming on the show really enjoyed the conversation and I think my audience is going to love it as well awesome thanks for having me Doug I enjoyed it man you got it thank you so much for watching if you like this video I really think you're going to like this video as well I'll see you there