Transcript for:
Review of the Latest 40k Update

The Army Painter is my favorite hobby company in the entire world. My desk is literally full of Army Painter products and it takes me from being an average painter to putting above tabletop standard model. out into the tournament scene. Not only that, but the Army Painter is sponsored more competitive play than any other hobby company in the industry.

They allow us to keep doing the things that we do. If you enjoy the Army Painter as much as I do, head over to thearmypainter.com, where you can use the discount code ARTOWAR5 to get a discount on your next order. What's going on everybody welcome back to another hype art of war stream as we are going to be talking about the biggest winners and losers of the new 40k update.

You're saying there's a balance slate there Seegs? There was in fact a lot of changes yesterday so if you haven't checked it out definitely head over to Warhammer community and go ahead and look at that but also go ahead and read or watch our content from yesterday where we went through the MFM in the morning then we went through the core rules the codex FAQ changes the primexes changes and then we had a stream game in which we pitted the brand new Blood Angels, finally with their Codex points, up against Biosanctic GSC, which received some significant buffs in the update. So really hype game. That was a fantastic one to watch.

Came down right to the wire, actually. Literally. Yeah, yeah.

So great game to watch. If you want to see more content from the new slate, guess what? We've got two more battle reports in the War Room with tons of facts.

Yeah, Jack. Just today, this morning, I released the Vanguard Ultramarines, John's updated list. You remember it from last year's Smash and Worlds?

Well, guess what? It's back. It's updated.

John's hype about it. And it's played into Thousand Suns, which receives some nerfs, but they're still quite strong and they do a lot of damage. It took a licking and they are still keeping on ticking. They're still ticking.

So that game's in there. We've also got brand new Aldari versus CSM. Both entirely new lists that you haven't seen before.

So a lot of experimentation is going to be happening. Come on over to the War Room, thewarroom.vhx.tv. There's a three-day free trial for you to check it out. But there's going to be tons more content coming very soon with State of the Factions.

for every single army in the game, and you also get access to our awesome international Discord community. That is a deal. You don't even need to pay for the war room to watch the videos. No, but we would appreciate it. We would appreciate it.

I mean, I'm not going to lie, right? Supporting us really helps us keep making this content, of course. All right, so thank you so much, everybody, for joining us.

We're going to have an exciting kind of, you know, our usual Thursday live show, and we're going to do a little bit of a ranking here for... biggest winners versus biggest losers and kind of give our analysis of the changes. And then if you do have any questions, feel free to super chat.

We will be answering them throughout, including SloppityBialTyper. Welcome in. Thanks so much for your super chat.

He says, love the content for the update. Homies, appreciate you. Thanks so much for coming over. Thank you, buddy. Okay, so without further ado, let's drop in over here.

And this is not going to be ranking the factions based on their power level between other books. It is simply... whether we think the update is, you know, a huge boot boost to this faction, whether it's a large nerve to the faction where they're probably going to drop down.

Um, we'll kind of see. Yeah. And this is entirely speculative because guess what? I still think even if you received significant nerfs, it's not like going from. top of the meta to one of the worst armies in the game no i think everything that was in s tier that got hit and everything that was in s tier got hit um i think they just fall into like a tier honestly that's my opinion probably and uh we'll do a full tier list of course on the faction rankings uh probably next week so look forward to that but this is going to be a rough and ready kind of impressionistic thing of whether they are by themselves a winner or something worse.

Well, let's start out with Adeptus Sororitas, Sisters of Battle. They went up a lot of points. They did go up a lot of points. I believe Quinn's list went up 185-ish.

Whoa. Somewhere around there. A lot of that was in the Triumph. So simply dropping the Triumph out of your list, which is not so simple because she is amazing, it does get you to a lot of places.

It does. You get to run the same list, or you can drop another tank and all of a sudden get some Exorcists in there. Sisters of Battle. Still, I don't think they're going, I see a lot of sisters players saying that their faction is dead.

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think so. I think that they're still quite strong.

I don't think they're going to be quite as dominant. I don't think they're going to be the winningest faction in terms of events in this new meta, but I think they will still be probably in the upper half for sure. I think so. I mean, they definitely took a pretty big hit, right?

180 points is a big swing, but they needed it. They were really really good like they were way too good obsessed army in the game beforehand. They just did things that other armies Look at and go, what?

Like moving 21 inches, kicking girls out, shooting, getting back inside, shooting you with all the castigators. Like it was too much. It was ludicrous. It was too much.

They took a hit in a couple different ways. Yes, points. Cherubs also don't split anymore and turn into two different cherubs. So if you drop the triumph, you're down eight miracle dice. And five of those.

Which is not insignificant. Which is not insignificant. And because you get five for the triumph. And. Three for the cherubs.

So you're down eight, which is a decent amount. And five of those are sixes. So, like, you might not drop the triumph. But if you don't drop the triumph, then you're dropping a tank and some other stuff.

Possibly two tanks. Like, she, 250 is, it's a price. It's a price.

It's a price. The triumph is expensive. You also lose the movement and certain bonuses.

So you don't fly it, or not fly, but, like, move quite as fast as you. Blitz across the board. You don't get every angle possible.

Yeah, like, the triumph. is a lot of what took that army over the top and if they still pay for it man it's 250 but like it made you know cascaders move 19 inches if you spend a miracle die now they move 16 16 is a lot more reasonable if they have to go around terrain you know uh immolators no longer moving 21 the volgon's no longer moving 17 now they move 14 you know like just take a little bit off the top that you don't get reroll ones to wound aura you don't get to double miracle dice and uh in bringers of flame you don't get your six up feel no pain that means that the volgons are actually kind of really annoying to kill like there's all these buffs that take these units and make them over the top right six up feel no pain double miracle dice it's just like oh now one thing to point out is that in the northeast meta where there's some top sisters players um like jeff claudner his list only went up about 75 or so points and that's the point where you basically drop the mortifier you know the dialogist and something else It's effectively very close. There's that change to Cherubs, but that list wasn't completely relying on it.

So I think that, yes, Bringers of Flame, that specific archetype was hit, but there's Triple Exorcist that was certainly coming into the meta the last month and a half. Yeah, that didn't get hit at all. It got hit, but Exorcist themselves didn't get hit.

Exactly. So I think the... Obvious answer would be to say hey they receive significant nerfs 185 points for bringers of flame list that is significant on the other hand I think a lot of sisters players are secretly like whoo That could have been a heck of a lot of 10 points on a castigator that could easily gone up to 170 175 ish And some of their other units could have gone up further as well like fall went up 10 points She won up 10 the cat the ball guns went up 10 so 20 for that whole package Dude, that package is still worth whatever you have to pay for now i forget is like what now 390 um 390 super worth it it can kill almost anything in the game and with miracle dice anything is possible still so i mean what do you feel in here i feel like they took a significant nerf but they're still a pretty good army yeah they definitely took the significant nerf but i could see them like in a sneaky category where they were like oh thank god i didn't get hit harder this is actually a blessing you I think sisters are still going to be strong.

I think sisters are still going to be at the top at or near the top of the meta. Taking the top off that list, right? 180 is, is, is taking the stuff off the list that made it like unbeatable, like broken, right? You take a full tank and change out of the list and suddenly the list doesn't shoot nearly as hard.

It's that critical mass of not having enough guns faster. Can't cover every single angle, right? Like it's.

it's nice it's really nice and if they lose the triumph to cover for it then each of their tanks is worse than otherwise and that is also a big deal also the triumph is just a massive pain in the ass late game like late game when all their tanks come out and she's 18 wounds with a three up four up on the center objective with oc6 and like 18 attacks you do not have time to shoot at her with any of your guns and so she just gets to kind of vibe there just just being on the center objective, stealing it away when they commit their whole army. So I like the changes they made to Sisters. It also opens the army up to experimenting with different archetypes, which I think is great. Now, Exorcists, I think, was a big miss on GW's part. I really am not looking forward to the standard list being like three Exorcists, three Cascaders, three Immolators.

I'm not looking forward to that. It just shells you and it's like, oh, do you want to step out? Okay, now I'll use them as direct fire anyway, and they're still just good. Like Quentin, I'm like, no. quoted me a list like right after the the update dropped that was three castigators three exorcists two emulators and the volgons i was like wait Didn't you just go up? Like, what are we doing?

Sure, he cut stuff around the edges. I guarantee you he did, and the list is worse than it was before. But that list is still like an eye-watering amount of shots.

It still brings the crippling damage. It still does. Triple Exorcist, man.

They may have messed up with Exorcists a little bit. I think so. All right, we've got Greg Gonzalez here with a $10 Super Chat. Thank you so much, Greg.

Thanks for pinging me to keep me informed. And please pay special attention to my beloved Death Guard. We will definitely get there. And honestly, we'll just bump him up right now. We'll do it next.

We'll bump him up. We'll bump him up, Greg, just for you. Thanks so much for your super chat.

And then Azuma, Kazuma, thank you so much for the $5 super chat. Hey, guys, hope you're great. The Black Templar nerfs hit me right in the heart. That nerf killed all my lists.

Hope December update is good for Space Marines. Yeah, the Crusader build is, like, shot through the heart and dead. If you liked...

spamming out Crusaders, I have bad news for you. That list went up 200 points. That list is the hardest hit list of the slate.

Like, legitimately no joke. Sorry, more than 200. That list went up minimum 220 because you have the two characters. Yeah, I don't think it needed to be quite that much. Now, to be honest, I think that's just one archetype. I think the Sword Brethren, I think Sword Brethren are actually still quite good.

Oh, amazing. Helbrecht. took way too many strays that dude at 130 is wildly over costed but i think he needs to be like 105 something like that but we'll see if he drops he drops and that just is what it is clearly they didn't watch the champs cup streamer hellbrick failed his charge with his unit and it was bad times but grimaldus i think grimaldus is still kicking right along i think he's still really good and i think going with sword brethren that sort of thing i actually don't think the the black templar gladius is that bad It did go up, which is a little ridiculous, but, you know, that's fine, right? It's 40 points up for the Eradicators and 10 points up for Grimaldus.

We can figure that out. If you switch the JPI to other things, you actually don't take that many points changes. I do think JPI outside of Sons of Sanguinius or whatever, Liberator Assault Group.

When I look at five points more, it gets me Heavy Intercessors as a trade piece on objectives. Hell yeah, I'm taking that. Yeah.

You can really make a durability Black Templar list that's like Heavy Intercessors and Sword Brethren with Grimaldus and things of that nature. But the Crusaders are way over-costed at this point, and I don't think you take them. I think, sorry, Olivier ruined it for all of us. I don't even own a single Primaris Crusader.

We didn't have that build. We're just not going to run it. but i'm excited for other black templar stuff yeah just the premieres crusaders are are uh dead i think your righteous crusader builds that you've been testing are still very strong yeah i think heavy heavy intersets are actually a pretty big change for that yeah because righteous crusaders giving them a six up feel no pain is pretty nasty man like that that unit is oc2 and thick as hell and 19 points a model and i don't know man like that's That's a lot.

That's a lot. You can make a durability skew that's pretty solid. We just talked about all the Black Templars things.

So how do you feel? I would put them in loser. They did not gain anything. Yeah. They didn't gain anything.

The Primaris Crusader is obviously a significant nerf, but the faction as a whole, you're just going to switch to the Sword Brother and Heavy Righteous Crusader builds or the Gladius builds. And in that case, it's a bit worse than before, but not huge. Yeah. You can still take the Hellbrick.

The hell brick on the way put them down here just because primaries Crusaders got obliterate like a whole style died I mean the problem is I don't want to like black Templar players are Feeling a little hopeless right now, and I think that if you are a primaries Crusader player I think that's fair. I think if your plan is to play a hundred primaries Crusaders your list objectively is just not that good Like, any more. 220 minimum points. It probably went up by a little more than that, depending on your other choices.

Is untenable for that army. I think you take the two 5-up Fielno Pain bricks, and then you play Sword Brethren. The big Sword Brethren units.

Yeah, yeah. That would be the pivot I would go for. I think that's what you do.

I think, like, legitimately, a bunch of Sword Brethren that have a 5-up Fielno Pain is pretty good. Honestly, there could be a list where you run a couple 10-man heavy intercessor units. two five of phenopane crusader bricks and then some amount of sword brethren after that i could see that as a body's approach i honestly like the sword brethren with the feel no pain because not killing them is so brutal oh yeah you're like oh i left four left okay i'm dead i left four alive and then they kill something the next turn Just go on the terminators are also quite interesting They went down ten which is kind of nominal but that unit is thick as hell So if you don't want to take the hell brick you can take ten per mares crew sorry, not Crusaders ten sword brethren with Grimaldi's and ten assault terminators with a chaplain and the Tannhauser's Bones.

Tannhauser's Bones. I can't believe I forgot that, but yeah. I got you.

Tannhauser's Bones. And then you take a bunch of heavy intercessors who are toughness six with three wounds and a three-up save, armor of contempt, and six-up feel no pain, and just, dude, those units are thick, and they're cheap. I think you can really make that build work, and you take some eradicators to go with it, stuff like that, and you just have a lot of dudes. A lot of dudes.

A lot of dudes. We've got CAKF. life us thanks so much for being a member for 24 months really appreciate your long-term support of us three by six death shrouds with morty is my mainstay for all my lists now it's an archetype that actually was having quite a bit of success at teams um sometimes with morty sometimes without but we've seen both variants actually do quite well in teams and now that that list went down significantly it's it's nasty that list is pretty if you have to engage in the middle if your army is designed to engage in the middle that's a very scary list to play against Yeah, it's 960 points for 18 Deathstrap and Morty, and that's pretty damn good.

Pretty damn good. I will be okay with putting Black Templars in significant nerf. They did take a significant nerf.

If you played with any amount of Primaris Crusaders, you are feeling it really hard right now. And I don't want to undersell that for people. I do think there are ways to pivot and make good Black Templar lists from here. So, you know, I'll be exploring that in the future. Absolutely.

Also, the ballistas being 130, I think, is a really good place for a durability-based, like, thick boy list where you just take a lot of durable stuff. I actually like the ballistas at 130 to take, like, a couple of them. All right.

So for Death Guard, we already mentioned some of those big changes here. And then they also had a change where their stratagems will work on the whatever is called spread the sickness objective. I forget what the exact term is. So here's how it works. Brief rundown.

Sticky objectives. and infected objectives are two separate effects that are applied to an objective at the same time. You as the opponent can remove the sticky objective, but you cannot uninfect the objective.

And so what that means is there's strats that trigger off of being on an infected objective. Those will just always work. When your opponent's in control of the objective, it does not hand out contagions as well. you still, like, you'll still be able to trigger the effects of your opponent being on an infected objective, even if they take it back, which is legitimately a very nice quality of life change. They also got some points drops.

Mortarion came down 25 points. I actually feel like Mortarion was not great before, but, like, fine before. People were taking him and doing all right with him, and Death Shrouds were, like, all right, and now that list, they weren't great, don't get me wrong, they weren't insane or anything, but, like, they were...

playable. Now they went down a significant amount. I would say, yeah, for sure.

They're a winner. Yeah. I think they're a clear winner and Death Guard fans should be quite happy. Also, if you were a brigand person who liked allying brigands, they also went down a bit. So you save some points there.

There's, there's some real benefits here. Okay. Then we have Super Bahara. Thanks so much for your $5 super chat.

Can you help me understand why exorcists are so good in 2000 suns? Uh, the reason is, is that thousand suns have a bunch of rubric squads. and or solo characters hanging around just to give them that threshold of cabal points and as soon as you put three indirect fire pieces back on the table that are really good at picking up marine bodies it's a problem thousand suns are on a clock at that point they need to find a way to win the game so that they don't just get shipped down over time and by the time the actual fight happens they just don't have the cabal points that they need yeah they're just on a clock the whole game on a timer yeah they have such little stuff that they need to always control when they're taking damage and when they're dealing damage and it always needs to be the game played at their pace if you take good indirect which exorcists are a little inconsistent but they are good indirect uh if you take that then they are not in control of the pace of the game anymore and they don't have the unit count to support that yeah i mean imagine that they run like their trash is only three units of three zangor enlightened that's their like kind of mission play that's their action you just pick it up You're just like, all right, turn one. Boom, boom, boom. Yep, you might not get all of it, but you'll probably get most of it.

And you're like, cool, now you have to do all your actions for the rest of the game with Rubrics and Vortex Beasts as long as they survive. It's like, I don't like that. I don't believe Thousand Suns have access to sticky objectives. I could be wrong, but I believe that they don't.

So whatever they leave back there, if you just keep popping it, they have to put multiple units on the objective. What do their cultists do? Their cultists give you a CP on a two-up whenever they die or kill something. Wow Army but yeah, no, it's not.

Wow. I'll take sticky objectives. Yeah So I don't think there might be some unit in there that gives sticky objectives and I could be wrong But I'm pretty sure that if you if they just like park Basically, I think T-Suns need a unit of cultists just to be 10 dudes on an objective, which means Ectruses can't chew through it in one turn. They just don't have enough shots that hit.

But if you have like three goats back there holding the objective, no, you don't. Six of influence, baby. All right.

Will, I really am. Two pound super chat. What would you take to win a singles event now? I mean, I'm going to just, let's just move this army up because I think it's the strongest in the game right now. Guard?

I would take Guard. If I could play any army right now and my goal was to win whatever I think is the biggest tournament, I guess Worlds is the next big tournament happening. If I didn't care about my factions and I really wanted to win it with one army, I think Guard is the strongest army in the game now. What were their positive changes?

I know that some stuff went up. The Tank Commander gained Squadron. It went up in points but gained Squadron. And then their Ogryn went down.

And Scout Sentinels went down like 5. They didn't get too many points buffs, but Ogryn was their only points nerf, really. Or Bolgrin. Or Bolgrin and then the Tank Commander, but he got a buff. A rules buff, yeah. And then they gained Aclons.

And the amount of trickery you can do with the new unit of Pseudo-Psyons is kind of ludicrous. I would say Guard is in a pretty good spot. If I were to go to a singles event, I like Grey Knights. Grey Knights didn't change at all, which is positive because...

you know, the things that they were competing with came down, which is nice. We'll talk about why, in my opinion at least, Custodes staying where they are isn't really a change for them. But for Grey Knights, staying where they are is a change because they were competing with top things that got nerfed. So that is nice for Grey Knights. I also think that Retaliation Cadre is in a very good spot right now.

It did not get touched. I mean, it went up five points here, down ten points there, like whatever. It didn't really get touched, and I think it was starting to catch on. I think either of those is probably what I would take right now if I were to go to a singles event.

I mean, those are my two frontrunners for WCW, for example. Yeah. I don't play guard. I'm not going to play guard, but I'm more in the hypothetical scenario here where I just think it has such a... The thing is they layered multiple buffs over many months onto their key rules, like orders, how they work, and then...

how their born soldiers detachment rule works and then they drop points on almost all their key units like the tanks are very cheap for what you get you know the Lehman Russ tanks um so I I think they have a lot of cheap units they have a lot of units that can do many many things they just basically have every tool in the game right now and that feels very strong it does I think they're a winner I think they're a big winner they didn't like change that much they just didn't come down while also being like one of the better armies in the game i think they end up in a very good spot but that's because they started in a very good spot i don't think they are like delta is that big i think they're the best army in the game right now i think so period yeah but i think they went from like a top five army to best army in the game i don't think i think it's because the the stuff that was sitting around them did receive much more significant nerfs now you can say bulgren that is a big nerf to bulgren but the army wasn't bulgren the army it had a lot of other tools and he gained a new one Yeah, you could make an argument for cutting some amount of bull green. I played with them. They're very, like, whittledownable. They're not bad.

Like, they were very good. But you could make an argument for cutting them. Now you are making the argument for cutting them.

Yeah, I actually think you just cut them and you run even more stuff around. Like hellhounds. Yeah. Hellhounds are cheap as chips, man. They have so many cheap things.

I think they're a huge winner. Sure. I'm not going to argue against it.

All right. Let's see. We got a couple more super chats here.

Sam White, thanks so much for the $2 super chat. And he says, whoops, guard don't have kill rigs though, my man. Yeah, that's true. Let's do the orcs.

Let's do the orcs. You want to talk about orcs now? Let's talk about orcs.

Let's talk about some orcs. Orcs, big winner. Like straight up, no questions asked.

They are just a big winner. I think we're starting. I've actually been very happy with the orc lists that I've been building.

Like I have actually been very happy with those lists. I think we're starting to hit the point in the lists where you get a lot of stuff. Just a lot of stuff. And orc lots of stuff builds are my personal favorite, so maybe I'm a little biased here.

I love orc builds that just have way too many transports with way too many dudes, and they're all over the board, and they're scoring every point, and they're killing your units, and they're doing everything. And you can kind of do that now. I think Warhorde is solid. I don't think the army is insane or anything. But I do think it got a big buff.

Like, kill rigs, I think, at 155 are incredibly tasty. I think Beast Boss, Beast Boy kill rig combo was already pretty good. Like, already pretty good.

It was good. It was. It was. Listen, say what you will about how they got there. I forget what tournament it was, but there was a recent tournament where there was a scandal or whatever, but the person playing triple kill rigs played the top eight clean and did really well in the top eight.

How they got there, that's a whole nother story. But that list is good. Like legitimately, it's pretty good.

You take a Warhorde, you take three kill rigs, you take the Beast Boys and Beast Bosses to go in them. Now you get a lot of points after that. It's 990 for that combo.

You get 30 dudes, three killing characters, three kill rigs, 990. I've written a list that is just three kill rigs, the dudes inside, six trucks, and just flood it with boys. Just put boys in all of them. Boys came down. Boys came down. A lot of stuff came down a little bit.

But I think we're starting to reach that critical mass where you can run the MSU transport dude build that I loved from the index. I'm super excited for that. I'm playing that. I'm actually going to play that today. And it's going up today, I think.

It's going. No, the Ultramarines Vanguard versus T-Suns went up today. It's going up tomorrow.

Okay, so tomorrow you'll be able to find a game with my orcs versus Quentin's sisters. Quentin's trying out some new stuff as well. And I'm just excited to put a lot of stuff on the board, man.

I have various builds. A lot of them have like five trucks, three kill rigs, and it's just a ludicrous amount of stuff. And I'm excited for that. I really am. I think also the changes to letting you actually use like your war bosses rules.

I mean, about friggin'time. I think... There's a bunch of factions in the game that have weird transport interactions. They just need to go back and rethink that.

Yes. So I'm excited. I mean, I don't think the power level of the army has fundamentally changed on like a deep level.

But I think the army is going to jump right up into the middle of the pack of armies and be an army that you can just do well with. Yeah, absolutely. All right, we got a couple more super chats here, one of which is from Sam White. $10 super chat.

Thank you so much, Sam. Oh, handsome. I'll let you read this, honestly. Oh, handsome Jack, please give me the play to keep my three kill rigs okay. They're a big, mean, green ride, but with three of them to hide, I'm worried they'll get blasted away.

You got to live your life without fear, Sam. Honestly, that sounds like a man who has not truly embraced the law. Also, what you can do. is you don't just take three kill rigs.

I agree if you take three kill rigs and you go second and you get shot, it's a, it's a big problem. Um, but what you want to do is you want to have, you want to have like herd defense. Basically, if you take three kill rigs in like five trucks and you fill them all with nasty wasties stuff, that'll stab your opponent in their face holes.

Then what'll happen is your opponent goes first and they kill like a truck and a kill rig. And that's just like not enough. And then you flood the center of the board and you have bottom of turn at least to start doing stuff. It's nice.

You can also hide trucks in little holes and crevices, which is also very good. And if you go first, the trucks, like your opponent wants to kill the trucks, but if they kill the trucks and they don't kill the kill rigs, if they kill the kill rigs and they don't kill the trucks, you want to kind of have that tension. Also, you can't live your life full of fear, you know?

Also, orcs are one of the big beneficiaries of the change to secret missions where you can't score primary turn five if you take one. Because orcs can open up a big primary differential. They can open up a big can of whoop-ass on your opponent's primary score, for sure. Just steal it away from them over and over and over again. That's something not to be undervalued.

That is huge. No, it's good, man. Ten boys in a truck is $1.45. That is cheap as hell. You'll kill a unit of battle sisters or whatever, steal the objective, your opponent has to then take it back.

You get the trucks to do a bunch of actions and secondaries and whatever, and then trucks can tie stuff up. It is greater than the sum of its parts. You look at it and you're like, oh, it's just a bunch of boys. But it's a bunch of boys hidden behind trucks and that are wedged behind walls. And then you take away your opponent's objectives and your opponent just looks at the board on turn three and goes, I'm never scoring a primary point again.

What is happening to me? I've done it in the past. Like, that's the list that I was excited for in the past is like 90 boys with with stuff in there. Right.

You still get knobs and stuff and knobs hit hard. They hit hard with a war boss that now has nine attacks on the water. And so you basically.

You stage, you set up the WOT turn, then you take your WOT turn and you crack your opponent really hard. And then it takes them like four turns to dig their way out of it. And they just don't score primary for the rest of the game. And like by turn five, you're very dead and it doesn't matter.

Like it's okay. It's great. I love that variant of orcs.

Brother Tobias, thanks so much for your two euro super chat. Zero days since Dark Angels got Codex Marines nerfed and they'll do it again. those dark angels are nasty man yeah it seems pretty clear that gw's design philosophy of is What they want to do is they want to buff the units that don't get seen, and they want to nerf the units that do. And it seems clear that they expected what that will lead to is an army that starts to take, like, an army that stays the same power level but takes different units.

And that's not how it works, right? If I, you know, if I nerf your linchpin unit and I buff a unit it's not good enough to take. your army is not staying the same power level. And maybe we'll see them not do that in the future or something. They have said in the article from yesterday that there will be an update later this year, which I guess means December, that they're going to do a big update to the game, a new MFM, all that stuff.

And one of the changes is making Codex Marines more fun, or I forget what the terminology they used, but they're going to do some sort of update to Codex Marines. I'm excited for that. We propose doing things like taking each of the special characters like Khan or Shrike and just having them give some sort of additional benefit or to certain types of units that would fit that archetype better. Like if you take Khan and Stormlance, these units also get this cool role. There's a lot of things they could do to make Codex Marines more worth taking because right now it's basically Ultramarines.

Ultramarines are good. They are good. The other lists just keep getting worse.

Yeah, if you're running like a Raven Guard list. It's like, what are we doing? The Codex doesn't give you an incentive to do that versus all the other options.

It's not. It's a Codex that is just there to kind of shuffle units into the supplemental chapters right now. Yeah.

It's a delivery system for... For Blood Angels and Black Templars and Dark Angels. Yeah. And Space Wolves. So hopefully, I mean, they said something about Codex Marines in that article, and hopefully they'll be able to fix it.

And then we got a super chat here from Trey Dudley. Thanks so much for the $5 super chat. How could slash would you build an army around my boy Bobby G?

Well, look no further than Mr. Thomas Byrd from Perfect Tabletop. Because that man runs Gilman. Doesn't matter how many points he was.

He was running him at 350. He's going to be running him at 285. Tommy B running Bobby G. So there are people who run them. 285 is not bad for what you get for him. No, I think what you want to do is you want to decide whether you're taking Kalgar or or gallman because together they are expensive less expensive than before each part i think is worth taking together you don't get enough stuff so decide if you want to run kalgar or gallman and then build like a gladius around it because the gladius's rules are pretty sick like they're actually really really good you have to take marty's calgary yeah you have to take calgary so that means you're taking gilliman for his you could take you could take all men instead of cal no you cannot you cannot marnies is so good he is literally is one of the best data she rules in the game and gives you a cp on top of that the man isn't and he has two vitrix guard yeah but you know golem is big if you want to see why marnies calgar is so damn good check out the game just released today with ultra means vanguard into thousand suns in the war room calgar is a poster child of i put the game on my back But if Trey loves his boy Bobby G, if he loves his boy Bobby G, take him alongside as many as you can take him alongside Calgar. I personally think you end up with like 400 change points of like 460 points of support and you need more units. I would just take like a gladius, just a good stuff gladius list with the eradicator, apothecary bomb, a land raider, vindicators, all of that.

And. Then you put Goleman on the end of that, and you have him walking up the board, giving you a bunch of free strats, and eventually stabbing someone in their face. You actually don't need the land raider because you have Kalgar.

It's true if you have Kalgar. I like land raiders, though. Kalgar does not have 2d6 plus 6 flamers at 622. I like killing land raiders. i like using land raiders i don't know man it's it's a conundrum um okay cool then we have uh mike logs dog blog and clog shop thanks so much for the two dollars super chat how do we feel about double infiltrators and marines it's good one is just i i would never not take one if i was taking uh most of the space marine builds and then if you go for two you're really just shutting up shopping your backfield and your opponent has to interact in front of you Yes.

It's 200 points to do it, but that's not that much. Yeah, I think it's any list that needs to keep their opponent on the other side of them. Like an example would be Stormlance, right? Stormlance needs to keep your opponent in front of your wolves. They don't turn around well.

Same thing with old Black Tide, the Black Templar Crusader spam. Anything in that vein needs to keep their opponent. in front of them and does not turn around well if they get in behind them. Those lists need double infiltrators, otherwise I think it's a luxury. All right, and then we've got a super chat here from Sam white $5 super chat Also gas or no gas for three kill rigs feel like I'd rather have more stuff.

I don't think you need gas He's not like bad or anything. I think gas right now is actually pretty good but you don't need him and I think the perfect complement to three kill rigs is just a cavalcade of stuff and just dudes in trucks is just the best pair to kill rigs. Because if they focus on the kill rigs and they fight the kill rigs, then you just win on points, which I like. So yeah, I would probably say that you could run Gaz because Gaz in and of himself is pretty good. But if you're running three kill rigs, the best pair to that is just an overwhelming amount of stuff.

And that's the direction I'd want to go. Yeah. And then we got fish.

Thanks so much for your $5 super chat. No amount of points drops will make the bad units good. There is an amount that will make bad units good.

There are an amount of points drops. We've seen it in the past. This is the first time you're going to see heavy intercessors in a meta.

So get ready for it. And then when you nerf a faction, only good units, then the faction as a whole stinks. Well, at the end of the day, like if you're talking about Marines specifically, there are still good units in there.

Like the eradicator brick, it did go up. It is still one of the strongest units in the game for doing damage to something. Yeah.

um so let's let's talk about some space marines let's talk about some space marines let's talk about codex space marines here how you feeling about codex space marines well they definitely they definitely took a hit um because of the the thing we talked about before where the good units went up and the units you didn't see went down they will gain some different play styles in that in that you know in that trade but that's definitely not what you want to see like I'm excited for ballistas at 130. I think 130 for what you get from a ballistas is the point where I don't care if sometimes it bounces, right? Sometimes it shoots and it bounces and that's fine because you can take another one or another two and those might not and they're cheap and they hold ground well. Like you can do that, right? That unit was not good at 140. 130, I legitimately think it might be just because it's cheap enough that if it doesn't kill the thing it's pointed at, I don't care.

as much um heavy intercessors are pretty neat but jump pack intercessor is getting nerfed by 10 points is like a nerf to most builds right so and eradicators same deal if you're running a gladius that unit went up 40 points you'll still play it it's still really good it did go up 40 points so i would say basic marines are a loser out of the book unfortunately i think the other reason that they're going to be in loser here is because at the end of the day I still think Dark Angel's Gladius is very strong. I think that Black Templar's Gladius is very strong. Those supplemental chapters still are just better.

They're better to run. You have Ultramarines, and Ultramarines are very good, as John's going to be showing off. But that's one single detachment, one single play style in a broader book.

So it's definitely a loser for that sense as well. I do think the Ultramarine Vanguard is pretty decent. Like, it's pretty good. Yeah.

Ultramarines Gladius is also solid, but there's not a lot of wiggle room to write that list, honestly. Like if you include the good Space Marine units, which there are some, and you avoid the bad ones, and you probably take a bit of a points hit from the changes on balance, which is not ideal, but still, it makes Space Marines a loser from the book. You can still play Ultramarines.

If you don't want to play Ultramarines and you don't want to play any of the non-coast compliant chapters, you are in rough shape. I agree. You're like, it's quite bad, actually.

Hopefully, whatever that update later this year will help with that issue. Yeah. All right. Let's do Thousand Suns.

Let's do Thousand Suns. Thousand Suns took a big hit. Their list went up an average of like 100, 115 points, I would say, depending on what was being run.

So every character went up 10. Yep. and infernal went up 15 infernal went up 15 magnus 25 magnus went up 25 and rubrics went up 5 and mutalisk went up 10 each zangor enlightened up 5 as well zangor light went up 5 so if you look at the list i mean i can pull up the list that i had built there was a 2000 point list that's like standard stuff mike's went up 105 which meant he had to drop five rubrics or a sorcerer mike's went up less than average i would say because he was running a 10 man squad he's running slightly fewer characters The list that I wrote that was 2,000 points before and I was like okay with it, this list is 2145. So I think it went up 150 because I think I had five floating. So I think the average Thousand Suns build is going to go up about 140, 150. Mike's went up less than average, I would say. That's fair. The 10-man rubric did go down, so that helped him.

Yeah, it did. It offset some amount of it. And, yeah, I don't know, man.

It's a lot. It's a lot of points. 140, 150 points is a lot of points.

That's going to be a character and change, right? Like, to make that list fit, I'd have to cut a character and a squad of Enlightened. And at a certain point, the army is going to just kind of collapse.

I don't think we're at that point yet, but we're like teetering on the brink. It just gets more punishing to play. Yeah. It doesn't make it, you know, it hasn't really dramatically reduced its power level in the sense of if you stand in front of a T-Suns army or you get hit with them on their terms, you do just die.

They have that power, but it means that if a Thousand Suns player makes any early game mistakes, it's punished that much harder. Absolutely all of the slack has been taken out of the list. Like the rope of the list has just been pulled to the breaking point.

There is no more room to give. So if they lose a unit because, oops, something went wrong, then it's a horrific cascade of events that happens from there. I think it's a significant nerf.

I mean, 150 points in an army that is. It's definitely significant. It's definitely significant. It's definitely significant. I do think we'll still see some Thousand Suns players doing well.

Yeah, a good player with this army can still do a lot of magic. It's just from game to game, it'll be a lot harder to win a big event like a nine round event. Because at a certain point, something is much more likely to go wrong. Yes, you lose a unit you weren't accounting for and suddenly you are just in deep trouble.

Like your army is 20 funny tactical marines, maybe two mutalists, depending if you can make that work. And, you know, Magnus. And if you...

lose those funny tactical marines you don't have an army left one thing to point out here is that the cabal points are on the razor's edge of what you need to pull off like the three key plays that you want to because if you cut a rubric squad or a sorcerer you're down a couple more and then if you use umbralific crystal in any of the earlier turns all of a sudden you don't have that critical mass of cabal points yes which it can be problematic not great um yeah i mean that's that's the thing right because the way that thousand suns is designed You can't cut into the Cabal Point package. You can't cut into that or the army stops functioning and you can't have that happen. So what's happening is the rest of the list is being reduced to its absolute most bare bones essential parts. Right. Clarion said it pretty good in the chat there.

But basically, it's just like anything that isn't part of the Cabal Point shooting package. is just being stripped to its bones. It's like it can't go anymore without breaking.

So, yeah, I mean, I think the army's still fine, but I think this could be the update that breaks them. Maybe it's the next one. We'll see.

All right, how about Imperial agents here? They received a nerf to Canis. Sorry, Imperial Knight players.

And then... Um... They didn't take a nerf on sub... If you run them pure, subductors didn't go up.

If you run them as allies, then those did go up. At the end of the day, the meta did get worse around them, for the most part. It's a weird place to put this. I think I'd put it into side grade, and let me explain why. So the same thing for Custodes as well.

Grey Knights were actually competing with the top armies, and those top armies came down. Imperial agents, custodians, those sort of armies, they were not competing with the top armies. More armies being added to A tier does not affect the fact that they couldn't hang with A tier.

So I don't think it makes a big difference for them that the top, top of the game came down because the average power level of the game has come down a nominal amount. And that is what they're competing against. It's not like they need to be able to beat specifically... thousand sons sisters dark angels in order to win they need to beat a lot of things in order to win so the fact that those three came down and are still probably not playable is not actually helpful i mean i think there's a couple armies that are like this so you mentioned custodians at the end of the day there is no new style there's no real any difference like a couple units are a bit cheaper maybe you can try dreadnought spam you That really remains to be seen.

They move six, man. It's so brutal. I have a list on my phone that is pretend Dreadnaughts move nine.

And it literally is what if they did move nine? What would the list look like? And the list looks fine.

They should just move eight. They should move eight. They used to move nine, I believe, but I forget.

Yeah, Custodes Dreadnoughts were slightly faster. Yeah. Not the Telemont, I think, but the... Telemont, I think, moved eight.

Yeah. But now they move six, man, and it is... It's untenable. Six without advance and charge access is not great, especially because you don't have infantry. Custodes are in a pretty rough spot.

Their army is just... Like, the army can probably limp along at, like, a lower half of the barrel. I think it was like 48% for most of the last minute.

I don't know exactly. It was around there. It was a little bit below 50%. Yeah, it was a little bit below 50%. So the problem with custodies is that custodies do a thing that is very hard for below average players to deal with, which is they just present you with stats.

It's incredibly easy for high level players to deal with. It's not even difficult. I can't beat, I don't think, anyone in this house with custodies. realistically outside of some wacky stuff happening but i saw you beat those demons jack that was might have been a hard counter who's to say i take the detachment that screws over demons and then we find out oh guess what but by and large like given given a non-jokey matchup i would say custodians should lose into top tier players most if not all of the time and I think that Custodes presenting most players with just like, or presenting like a, you know, below 50% skill level players with just a bunch of stats is enough to carry them through 46% of games.

Here's what I think. That's totally fine. I think they should, um, they have like two or three detachments that are just basically a joke, kind of like AdMech where they're just, why are they even here? What I think they should do is they should write a brand new one like sky splinter, um, that they add in. Like a bike detachment.

They should do a bike detachment and a Terminator detachment. That was what was missing from the Codex. Those two styles don't exist currently.

And they should. That is literally part of their lore. I don't care about Sisters of Silence. Jack!

I don't care either. I don't care about them. I don't care either. Why are we writing detachments for Sisters of Silence?

Stop! But it's not even that. It's that there is nothing...

cool or flavorful about custodians at the moment they surgically excised them from the book which means that it might be an army you can get to 46 percent win rate but it is a miserable grindy army that is not fun to play they should at all i love my custodians i really do i love my custodians i want them to be better but there is no fun there are no fun rules in that book at all they took them out all of them and likes your t6 i what is that yes you Yes, legitimately. I have a whole custodian. There should never be a codex released where six months later I am begging GW to just remove the codex from the game and go back to the index. Like if they did that, if they literally just took the custodian's book, threw it in the trash and said, you don't have to play with that anymore. You get to play with the index again.

I would throw a party. Okay. That should not be what happens.

That should be fixed. It was not fixed. Points went down. trajan who lost all of his rules and is like 50 points over costed right now went down 10 cool he's cheaper than call man dreadnoughts that move six and are not very good came down five or ten i think i who cares and bikes came down 10 and bikes are really understated and paying for ninth edition so i think what they need to do i i think if they were going to change it points.

I think they need to drop points dramatically across the board. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants it. Nobody wants that.

What they need to do, like the easiest thing to do, is just to say hey, the codex doesn't exist. Go back to the index. And I would love that. Or rewrite the codex. They should do two detachments that actually buff custodian units.

There's not enough things that are going on in there The the other problem is all the units lost their rules like all of the characters lost the reasons to take them Why is the shield captain 140? He is one of the worst characters in the game because he lost his once again You get all three and every turn you get two katas also, you don't really care about lethal hits that much so two katas doesn't really even matter that much anymore and The free strat there are no like this the strats aren't worth Making cheaper like I don't care anymore what they should have done is they should have changed the warden data sheet to not make it So all or nothing they should because they were hung up on that The wardens were the problem before if you know pain should not exist in this game. I hear you I have a different experience with wardens I don't actually think they're that durable anymore because you used to be no I'm saying they were I'm saying you had minus one damage You had for a phenol pain like that unit took all their attention and they were like custodians have good data sheets They can't have as strong rules. That's what I'm saying. I guess.

I think they got over-focused on that. Like, the Wardens held that thing together, the Index. The Wardens were what was holding the Index together. I don't know why they did what they did, but I will say that basically every character lost a rule.

Literally no units gained an interesting rule, except for Sisters of Silence, sorry. They gained a datasheet rule that is better. But, like, whatever. And I feel like the...

The... I don't know. I don't want to get hung up too much on Custodes.

What they did to AdMech they should do to Custodes. Exactly. Revamp the army. Make people actually interested to play their army again. Make them more points.

But worth it. Because our Custodes. I know our Custodes channel in our Discord is not feeling very happy about this. Because they were really like this army is not fun to play.

And I really hope they do something. And then GW came along and gave them 10 points on Trajan. It's just like a unit I wasn't taking. What are we doing?

I would be shocked if whatever they do in December doesn't have something with Custodes. God, please. You know, I'm sure they'll deal with Custodes properly this time.

Puts on my sad clown makeup. Like, I'm sure. I'm sure it'll happen. Demons?

I think they fit firmly inside grade. Firmly inside grade. They got a, like, Ren Master went up. The Great Unclean went didn't go up, which is nice.

yes and that is that's basically all that happened to demons the meta got worse so like sisters going down is big for demons because sisters was one of the hardest counters um two demons out there so um that's at least good news for them but Them as themselves. And T-Suns too. T-Suns were a pretty nasty counter for demons.

Disgusting counter. Stand in front of my T-Suns army with your big demons. What will happen?

Bad things. Would you like to touch an objective, good sir? Ah!

Dead. Oh no! We got a super chat here from Nick Hurting.

$2, thanks so much, Nick. Jack, what does your Silver Tide list look like now? The Terminator build looks the same. The Grey Knight build looks the same.

I still think it's really good. Yeah, let's do Grey Knights. Yeah.

Grey Knights is an example of an army that was already doing pretty well, so staying where it was was fine. I'm not going to say the word custodians for the rest of this. I think I've exhausted it. But I think they're a winner. Staying where they were was good for them.

Because you're already quite high in the meta, and then staying there, that's great. Because you have people falling from above you to below you. Right? So you're actually gaining power. Whereas other armies have armies falling from above them to also still above them, which is not like I'm not like it's a it's a nominal gain in power.

Whereas I think Grey Knights legitimately did did gain quite a bit from staying where they were. Thousand Sons now have like if you have dude, if you have librarians, you will you will hold their head underwater and give them swirlies. It's great. sisters also were pretty tough and are now going to be significantly easier to play into and uh same with dark angels so i'm excited my list stays the same but it does get better it does it does all right uh how about uh some dark angels dark angels i think john's list went up like 120 something like that yeah this is dark angels gladius um 40 on the eradicator unit and then 30 on jpi that's 70 15 each on the Deathwing Knights.

That's 45. I honestly think, like I wrote one last night, and if you cut two JPI units, add one scout unit, that's the list. Or you can trade one of the Deathwing Knight units for a Judiciar plus six more Inner Circle Companions. Yeah, that's also pretty good.

So there's a decent amount of stuff that you can do with Dark Angel. I still think that list is quite strong, personally. I think Deathwing Knights are still good. I still think they're going to be seen.

all over the meta. They are technically a loser because they lost a cheap unit and got a worse cheap unit. But you can't really convince me that it's a bad army anymore. No, I think it still falls. I think it falls pretty solidly in A tier now.

I would say it's a loser because it gets knocked down the ass, I'd probably say. Yeah. But like, still a decent army. It's still going to be strong. It's still going to do well.

If you're a Dark Angels fan, you're in a great spot. Bonsai Kitty Gaming. Jack, can you build on a concept of three keepers of secrets and shalaxy? I mean, build on my concept?

I mean, I haven't really, like, worked on that build at all, so I don't know what else goes in there. My guess is you take the guo with the forward field in the pane because he's just tough as nails and didn't go up, and then you fill the rest of it out with, like, infantry. You probably want one squad of plague bearers to hold, to stick to your backfield objective and hold it, and then just a bunch of cheap stuff to... They'll hold and take objectives from there. I do think that build is pretty decent though You can take a bunch of demonettes which are not terrible in that in that build Uh, celeski as well is a great way to confuse people between shalaxy and celeski.

It's like a caladius and a calidus Um, but I think that's probably where I'd build on it. Probably add the goo-o and then fill the rest of it in with cheap infantry and stuff like that. Yeah.

I think that sounds pretty reasonable. Then we have Doug Hensing. Thanks so much, Doug. Welcome to, uh, hanging out with us and appreciate your $5 super chat.

Trimming a hedge in the crisp fall air to your melodious takes, which of the marine trash units that went down are most techable? success suppressors reavers suppressors i actually quite like in the blood angels angelic host oh that's interesting because you can 3.1 away them it's only 75 points they can finish off a trash unit or put some damage on one and instead of spending 130 for three inceptors you can spend a cp and use a 75 point unit instead to do that role and i think that's that's pretty pretty they're pretty cheap reavers for 75 are actually not bad in liberator assault group Because they hit pretty hard. I think they scout, not infiltrate.

But you can also have them deep strike in to do secondaries and stuff. And at 75, they are cheap. You get more mobility than assault intercessors. They do less damage.

But they'll still beat the tar out of other skirmish units in Liberator assault group because they get plus one attack, plus two strength. Yeah. I don't know if I'll run them in any of my lists.

But I've been trying. I have to actually get suppressors. It's one of the models I don't have.

And apparently... Games Workshop doesn't make the individual kit for some reason. Weird. So I'm going to try and find a couple suppressor units for my Blood Angels. But outside of that, Heavy Intercessors is the other thing that I'm excited about for Marines.

Yeah, Heavy Intercessors are pretty good. I'm excited for Ballistas. I kind of want to try them now in like twos and threes because I don't care if they fail to do their thing. They're so cheap and durable. Just having two up save high toughness vehicles is good.

They're also OC4. OC4 really? Yeah.

There's a lot of OC3 things out there. There's a lot of OC3 stuff out there and they don't take it away from the Ballistas. That's quite nice.

Yeah, the Ballistas is priced like it used to be like 170 or something, which I think it used to be and now it's 130. That is competitive. Yeah, it's competitive. It is.

All right, we got Imperial Knights. They're a loser. I don't understand it.

They're definitely a loser. Brian's list went up 15 for Canis and then 15 each for the Subductor squads. So his list went up 45 points. It was 2,000 before. It's so sad.

Like, Knights can take that because they have a bunch of weird points amounts, but they didn't need it. Certainly didn't need it. So very clear loser there. It's not a significant nerf. They needed help, not nerves.

Yeah. And I see people talking about the gallon, you know, 380 points for the gallon. Like, have you heard of a move block, good sir? You can stop knights from doing anything. And if you want to see an example of that, check out our five-way battle report on this channel in which we played a random solid space marine list and took the knights to the cleaners.

I mean, spoilers, anything could have happened in that game. Anything could have happened, but it's going to show you why. But the thumbnail was appropriate.

Let me put it that way. Yeah, knights are not good. And that's the best knight player out there.

This guy plays knights just permanently. The best knight player, yeah. Sorry, Brian. Let me put it this way.

Sorry, Brian. Let me put it this way. The man came to DreamHack with us, and he played Votan.

Votan is the most vanilla army in the game, right? It's the most vanilla ice cream. Just solid 40k.

That's it. No frills, no nothing, just vanilla ice cream. And he's coming out of that tournament being like, I didn't know people had all of these options at their fingertips. The sheer dynamism of the Votan army is blowing my mind.

I'm like, yeah, this is your brain on nights, man. He's like, here's all the plays I was doing. I'm like, yes, Forget having an army like Grey Knights or Stormlance or something.

Or Eldar. Or Eldar, god. No, Votan.

Like, I like Vanilla too. It's just very funny. It's very funny that that was the army that was like a wild amount of dynamism for him. All right.

Chaos Knights, I think very firm side grade. Yeah. A couple things went down.

but not enough to really change it. Somebody was talking about a 14 war dog list. Somebody told me about that.

And then John just, I was like, Oh, you could run a whole extra word. That sounds pretty good. And then John was like, yeah, you can do it if you have no brigands. I'm like, Nope, put that back in the trash.

Do not want. So I think they're very clear side. Great.

They also need something else going on. I just nights in general or not. They need something else, something missing.

What about your boys, Admech? Admech, very clear side grade, in my opinion. Effectively, the 100 cohort list went up like 35. Or if you were running a lot of Teraxi, you went up a decent amount. So that would be more in the loser category. Effectively, no other playstyle got opened up.

Corpus Gari and Full Grace went down 5 points for 5 guys, but Robots didn't go down, Call didn't go down, The Honor Girl only went down 5. Like, almost all the stuff you never take didn't go down, Dragoons didn't go down, so I would have liked to see a bit more internal diversity work here, especially for, like, Cataphron Destroyers. Three-man Breacher units could have gone down. All of that would have helped Adesan become more viable.

It has like a 31% win rate or something ludicrously low. And I think that that's a big miss here. It's not helping out the really poor detachments. Like robots are trash in everything except for cybernetics because they don't get the army rule. But in that detachment, they're just over-costed.

So reducing them would have helped that become more viable. I see people saying that you can now ally three brigands. You could always ally three brigands.

It's not 500 points locked. It is you just get three. three it's one big night three war dogs yeah it doesn't matter what their cost is you get three war dogs yeah that was a ninth edition they had a points limit on it all right uh let's do blood angels so they finally got codex points they finally got codex points you can legally play the brand new codex for the first time in two months i uh i played them yesterday i think that build check that game out i think that build had too much expensive stuff in it the uh I think they're very side grady from where they were if you look at the back of the book.

The back of the book points are a little too much, and I think they have a little too much, so you need to go with the cheaper Space Marine things. I'm excited to run like, let me put it this way, three Ballistus, three Ball Predators is $7.95, if I got my math right. And that is a great place to start a list where you have a decent amount of backbone, and you can still fit in like... two big combat units and a bunch of skirmish stuff. I could play from there, right?

Or two ball predators or something. I could play from there. So you need to make the army cheaper because it's just too expensive. If you take all your good units or all your high impact units, I think the army ends up being a little too expensive. So I need to put some work in on that and try and figure out what a good split between expensive hard hitting units and units that can like.

play the game and take up space and that sort of thing i want to see what the balance there looks like saying when i regarded 270 i still think it's a little too much probably a little too much i think 250 240 you were saying 250 i think 240 is basically the same thing yeah i think around there they'll eventually end up going down to that point i think the 10 death company with jump packs can go down another little bit like surprised they went up i wasn't like sure if that unit was worth it at 330 and that's 350. i'm like i don't get that really So I think some of the hard hitting stuff, because you are getting access to advance and charge whenever you want it, which is amazing. It is amazing. Do not get me wrong on that one.

But these units don't quite hit as hard as previously. And I think the biggest thing that we've seen with the new Blood Angels is used to be able to run the Sang Priest with jump pack with the Vangor Vets, and Vangor Vets randomly got points nerfed. Yeah, I don't understand that at all.

Did they forget that the jump pack Sangrient Priest is gone? I guess. But, um...

You used to have a 5-up Fianna Payne unit with 4-up Involve, 2 wounds apiece. That was just, it could go out there, draw out a lot of enemy firepower. Blood Angels don't have that type of unit anymore.

You can have Lamorti's Brick, but it's not that durable. It gets whittled down fairly easily. Sanguinary Guard, you look at them, their two best defensive buffs are only melee, and so guns do tear them apart.

2-up save, having 3 wounds apiece, 4-up Involve, armor contempt axes is good. But guns will chip them down. Especially toughness four.

They'll hand you a lot of saves. So I think that the kind of overload style Blood Angels isn't quite as strong because you have less stuff and you don't have those two durability units. Yeah, you definitely have less stuff than you had before, right?

And compared to the Codex cost, I think the list went down like 10. I think my list yesterday would have been 2,000 points in the back of the book. And the back of the book was too much, right? Because I got 60 points back on... on sanguinary guard but i lost 10 on the ball predator i lost 20 or 30 on the jump pack intercessors and i lost 20 on the the death company a lot of those points increases are just like will add up so you need to be very cognizant of how many expensive units you're including which means you don't have an army where everything's high impact and you just can't anymore unfortunately here's the here's something that doesn't make sense to me if they think that mephiston is worth 125 right how can they justify sanguinar being 140 there is no universe where mephiston is not better than the sanguinar he's he's he's better i mean the sanguinar is faster which is nice um you have need of advance and charge you do You do, but you have to roll five to be as quick, and you can one-CP it.

Like, I get it, right? But no, the Sanguinar is over-costed. Yeah.

I used to think he was good at 140. I no longer think that. It's because he's an entire unit's worth of stuff. And what happens is your opponent finds ways to not do any important charges in turns two and three, and then you're like, oh, I got to rapid him in now, or I just had to bring him in naturally anyway.

That's not actually been my problem with the Sangonar when I played him. My problem with the Sangonar and with a little bit with Mephiston, a little bit of my problem with both of them is that 7 attacks and 8 attacks at damage 2 are just not worth over 100 points. They're just not.

You can get characters that hit that hard or harder for cheaper, and you can get units that hit that hard or harder for cheaper. I can only imagine what you would say if you had to swing Necron characters. I mean, yeah, they have four attacks.

It's a joke. It's literally a joke how shitty they are in combat. It's insane.

It's insane. Yes. But that is a problem with Mephiston and the Sanguinars, that their offense is limp and unreliable, right?

Because I've been there, right? You roll a couple extra ones to hit and a couple extra ones to wound. A lot of the time you're wounding on threes, and all of a sudden you're like, I handed you...

a save, two saves, and they're damaged two or D3. What is this? So there is legitimately in a, I know you're going to call me crazy.

If you are starved for stuff, there is an argument for dropping Mephiston. I'm never going to do it. I understand you're never going to do it.

I'm in love with Mephiston and I have no regrets. His offense, his defense is swingy. His offense leaves something to be desired.

He is fairly cheap. His rules are really good. but that's something i'm thinking on not saying i'm gonna cut him though don't you dare cut him jack don't you even dare cut him i might i might he's my fisting i know lord of death he's insisting on it all right uh votan is literally the definition of side green they went up 10 points the five man hearth guard went down 10 how did none of the enhancements or some of the characters go down i have no idea um but yeah that that happened so there's there's they're basically the same You can try and squeeze a 3x5 Hearthguard list in there, but you start running low on stuff.

But I think I found one way to do it, so I'll share that once I do the Votan Save the Faction. Sweet. We've got a couple super chats here.

We've got JC with a two-pound super chat. How do I build around Abaddon in Renegade Raiders? Thanks so much.

We have a bunch of games like that if you want to check out. A lot recently. There's like five games. Quentin has played it.

Not in Renegade Raiders, but he played it in Packed Bound. You can run the same thing. And... Our boy Russell Tassin has played a lot of games with it.

So you can go check that out. And Nick as well. Nick as well. I don't think he, did he run Abaddon?

Yeah, in Against Your Space Wolves. Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, technically.

So typically what you see him in is he takes five chosen. He's kind of the main buff piece in the center of your army around Vindicators, possibly Predators. And he's a really good counter-assault unit when you really need to send him.

But he's a late game piece. You use him as a buff piece early, and then he's a late game destroyer. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much for that super chat. We got Scott Robb.

Welcome to the War of Brobs. Bronze, really appreciate your support and so glad to have you with us. Make sure you sync your Discord account to your YouTube account so you can access to our Discord community. And then he also upgraded to gold. Really appreciate that.

Thank you so much and so glad to have you with us. Can't wait to see you in the Discord. Okay, we've got KSB Springs.

Perfect. Accursic Cult has got... A nerf, so the Dark Commune and the Accursicultist Fullbrick went up 30 points, which is not the end of the world, but now their Blood Surge can only be used once per phase, which is not infinite anymore. Yes.

So the unit itself is still good. It's just not... The abusive things that you could do with it aren't really going to work.

Maybe you run one now just to have that tool in case your opponent isn't able to handle it that well. But running the three of them is still like all in on. Still all in. It's 90 extra points, which is not unfindable. Yeah, you cut one legionary unit.

The units are easier to deal with because they only blood surge one time. So all told, I think the army got hit pretty decently hard. But then other stuff went down.

Other stuff went down. So you obliterators went down, like five man raptor. What, the blitz went down?

Or 10-man Raptors went down, 5-man Warptowns went down. Yeah, Blitter Rangers went down 10. If you do well at LGT, your list goes down. That's what we learned.

If you make the finals of LGT, your list will go down. It's the only tournament where that happens. It's true.

Both armies in the finals went down significantly. And then a bunch of other units. I'm forgetting exactly which other CSM units went down. But honestly, their win rate didn't really represent the tools that the army had. And I still think that they're in a pretty solid spot.

I think that just reflects that they have a lot of data sheets and eight detachments. So it's not hard to find something in your back pocket to be pretty good in that. If you like Vashtor, he also does a lot more in Soulforge than previously.

I think the army is I mean, I didn't really love the play style of the accursed occultist So call me, you know biased or something if you love the accursed occultist, you're probably shedding a tear this day I don't think the army is unplayable, but I do think it's significantly worse But if you liked literally any other data sheet in that book you are pretty happy right now Yeah, I mean cipher didn't go up. I would expect it that chosen didn't go up and though they were dominant lgt. I mean They could be a winner here.

Certainly a Curse Occultist or a loser. Yeah. Where is this kind of balancing in literally the rest of the game? What are we doing? This was well thought out, I think.

They gained a bunch of stuff and their one abusive combo got substantially worse. Where, where, where, where was that elsewhere? There's a winner part of it. There's a side grade part of it. And there's a loser part.

I don't know. Where should we put them? Let's put it in side grade. Yeah. I think they are a bit of a side grade.

Yeah. All right. Uh, Drukhari.

Oh, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, don't you dare laugh at Drukhari, okay, Jack? It was the strongest army in the game. The audience never lies.

I laughed at Drukhari. We said that they were on the weaker side, specifically in top player versus top player. They needed buffs. Chat, you were like, no, you're totally wrong about that. They are the best army in the game.

We tried. We tried. We tried to save you, and instead Games Workshop said, yeah, exactly. There's art of war you guys don't know.

Chat knows. Drukhari broken. They receive some of the most significant nerfs out of any of the armies.

And I think that Sky Splinter 30 Incubi list is a double core. It is completely dead. How many points did that go up?

Like 200? No, it went up like 130 to 50 or so. God, that's so much. It went up a lot because Mandrakes went up.

So then Reaver Jetbikes went up, which is more on real space raid, but you could still run them in Sky Splinter. But the Incubi went up. The Archon went up. The Beast Pack went up 15. Well, I didn't expect that to go up.

Who's getting abused by beast packs? Jesus. Dude, I don't know what to tell you.

When the Urgle starts hitting you with, or not the Urgle, the, what is the Chimera? The Chimera and the Quad Fiend. Dude, don't mess with the Quad Fiend. If you get Quad Fiended.

Significant nerf. Yeah, significant nerf. What is going on? Listen, man.

Hellions did go down. Do not forget the Hellion, which somehow doesn't have the infantry keyword because it's mounted. friggin drukhari players coming after us being like no you don't understand our army's super broken and then they got the crap nerfed out of whoever the guy from the uk was who insisted drukhari were broken then didn't come to dreamhack to prove it you got what you deserved however i will say we were trying to argue that hey because like by the time the nerfs came out the meta was starting to shift a little bit drukhari's win rate was dropping there's an entire stat check video on it where the jukari for the most part had their best win rate at small gts and lower yep literally what we were saying uh which isn't to say that the army was bad we didn't say the army was bad it's just very difficult to outplay good players with it that's all we're saying and uh i think that means they didn't need any nerfs i would not have nerfed a single thing in jukari I would have left them exactly where they were. And instead, they did not get left exactly where they were.

They got hit hard. Yeah. Like, they got hit like they were a sister's level army. The silver lining is that, oh, Lelith went up as well.

But that's deserved. She is actually really good. Lelith is pretty good.

But the silver lining is that the style that I was playing, and I will be playing more in the War Room coming up, is Real Space Raid with a lot of the Covens units. And none of that went up. So my list only went up because the Mandrakes, the Reavers, and Lelith. So it went up like 35, 40 points. that's nowhere even near the end of the world.

So I'm excited to put that on the table. Scourges didn't go up, so I'm ready to keep shooting. Wait, Scourges didn't go up? Yeah. Something's going to go up.

It's honestly the only data sheet I would have expected to go up. Yeah. But no.

No, I did say they were bad. Richard said they were fine. I said they were bad.

But, you know, now they're worse. And that's how it is. I stand by it. I don't think they were the worst army. I don't think they were the worst army.

Knights are 100% the worst army. I cannot. They do not let you exercise player skill.

Imperial agents are real bad, man. Like, they're real not good. Okay, maybe knights are better than imperial agents.

That's the question. They're better than a crusade army. Well, they both have canis, so, like, come on. It's true. It's true.

Yeah, no, Drakari, I stand by it. I think they weren't that good. And they got hit by 150 points. Or worse.

I think the biggest weakness that they have is that their transports didn't scale with the game and the damage of the game. Their transports need to be better. Can you imagine playing Scourges into Aqualon?

Yeah, Aquambot, good point. I'm not going to like it. You won't.

You won't like it. At least I have Talos. Yeah, David's pointing out that I kind of rolled my eyes when you were like none of the Coven stuff got hit.

I'm like, this is... This is kind of like the kazoo version of what happened like four years ago or whatever when Thick City got buffed for no discernible reason. Why can't I run three man Talos units?

I just want to run nine Talos. I can only run six. Disappointing. This is the exact same as back then except the army is like...

If you try to play the theme music for the army, but on a kazoo. If we had the Coven rules from back then, it would be crazy. Yeah, of course. The Coven rules back then were ridiculous.

Dark Technomancers, baby. Not even Dark Technomancers. Whatever the minus one damage, Artisans of Flesh.

Artisans of Flesh was also ludicrous. Oh, I miss that. That was a fun time.

Yeah. Yeah, no, the army's not good. It's not great.

It's not great. We'll see how you can pivot if you take the stuff that nobody is taking, but we'll see. There's a time when you could just run over 18 Hiveguard, no problem. Rip Manny. Yeah, yeah, you did pass a lot of 5-0, feel my pants.

Don't mess with me. I'm going to do it. Don't go into the plan where you're going to kill me.

It's not going to happen. Ryan G has a $10 Super Chat. Says, will anyone think of the poor Toxicrene?

It's currently more expensive than old 1i. Outside of John, does the Art of War team even know what the Toxicrene does? Nope.

One hope equals one prayer for Toxicrene. It prevents you from falling back, I think, on a 3-up. And it has a billion, like... crap attacks if i remember correctly i could not tell you what it does or or even care a single shred about the toxocrine i believe i believe its rule does prevent you from falling back on a three up i'm willing to bet that i think i do know what it does there's a different unit that ends with the rin exocrine use that exocrine yeah yeah so that one's pretty good that one's very good but maybe one day it will be good like we're finally getting heavy intercessors on the table they're like throughout the last two additions at some random point something that you have never built or painted before becomes good and eventually the toxin's time will show up yeah probably when it does an insane amount of morals for no reason it's already been like fixed so that it can now have rules that are it can move through it used to be it doesn't matter that it doesn't matter what the unit did it was unplayable because it it just sticks its hands out like super wide and can't move around the board that's fixed now it can move although it has to like end in a position where it can physically end in that is tough but uh now it could be you know handed new rules and potentially made good who knows we'll see all right uh well speaking of the toxicrin let's grab eold's tyranids i think they're a clear winner here what did they get they got a side grade in terms of points but the meta came down around them and things like the exocrine the tranefix none of their good units went up yeah old one i went up 10 but carnifex's which you take with him went down 20. And the winged Hive Tyrant went down 20. Oh, that's pretty, that's sizable. That guy's actually not bad.

Maybe not 20. I forget what exactly. Maybe 15. But he's 200 points flat now. I think he was 210 to 220, somewhere in there.

I really wouldn't know off the top of my head. But yeah, the Pyrovores went up five. The Lichter went up five.

But at the end of the day, none of their key units went up, and the meta came down around them. And I think Sisters going down is a... a huge deal for tyranids yeah also thousand suns yeah um tyranids like gray knights were in a position where they could compete with a lot of armies they had trouble into the s tiers and that problem though those things coming down has directly addressed their power level which is pretty cool um so yeah i think tyranids are our winner by staying still whereas some other armies are a loser by staying still or a side grade by staying still okay aldari they got you This is the first time Eldari has gotten nothing but green on their slate, which...

It is to largely non-relevant units. Yep, it is to not their best units or units that are rarely seen. But honestly, fire prisms going down, I would take that in a lot of my armies. Yeah, fire prisms and falcons are legitimately pretty decent. Wave serpents like 110 now?

Yeah, it also kind of sucks. That's a four up invul, man. No, it doesn't. It doesn't? No, no, no, no.

I think it's a five up. I thought it was a four up. I'm willing to check I'm not willing to bet you on it I did get a pub sub out of Nick the other day Ooh I need to cash that today actually Yes you do Serpent I knew that for a fact they were strength 4 And he was like no no no they're strength 5 I'm pretty sure it is What has a 4 Oh plus the War Walker Yeah the War Walker does but I'm thinking of the Wraith Blades Yes, Wraith Blades have a 4-up in them.

I think that Eldar... I'm still kind of an Eldar stan. I still think they're pretty decent.

I think they're a winner here. I think they're a winner. I think they absolutely are a winner.

Thousand Suns in particular is a massive bugbear for them, and that problem has gotten a lot easier. I think the only thing they won't like is Triple Exorcist Sisters, but that won't be every Sisters list. Triple Exorcist Sisters. I was about to say, like, no, you can build a build that hangs with Sisters. Yeah, not Triple Exorcist Sisters.

That just... I won. Okay.

um but i'm kind of an eldar booster man i still think eldar pretty good if you run the right stuff uh msu aldar has no backbone and cannot like can't defend itself if your opponent says hey i don't think you got what it takes then elders like oh you're right sorry but i think the build was like the wraith guard the avatar i still really like that the harlequin brick is still really good oh yeah none of that came down but i still think the army's pretty solid acolynes are going to be annoying for them 100 yes acolynes are frustrating. Luckily, there are abilities to take units that can be a little bit resilient to that. Also, the triple or double brick variant is less like the MSU Eldar variant.

Aqualons just literally rip them in half and throw them in the dumpster. It's so bad. I also just don't think MSU Eldar is good, like full stop. I don't think it's like not even like that good.

I think it's just not a good army. I think it's fundamental problems that can't really be addressed. But I do think that the, um, like two or three brick Eldar list is, I still think it's pretty good, man.

I know people have kind of like, like poo pooed Eldar. I still think they're pretty solid. I really do. There, there are one of the armies I'm considering for WCW, for example. Like, I think they're pretty solid.

Yeah. Uh, if you want to see heavy intercessors in action, check out this worm game from today of, uh, ultra Marines Vanguard versus a thousand sons. They put in work.

They were actually legitimately good and worth their points in the game. And you will see why we actually, they were probably fine at a hundred with them going down and other options going up. Like JPI were just so cheap that you kind of had to take them as a trade resource with them being a five point difference. Now there's a real conversation of what you get between the two of them.

We've got a bunch of super chats here. Thank you so much, everybody. Colt Hun.

Thanks so much for your $5 super chat. Three ballistas, three Brutalis, three redemptors. All for $1,500. Need a new chassis?

Please design it. What would it be slash do? It would be the Librarian Dreadnought.

That's a good one. Why did they take my Libby Dread? He was so cool. Maybe add three Bjorns somehow. Bjorn?

Yeah. Legitimately, though, if you were running that list, if you're running that in an Ironstorm, I think you would add Bjorn. Or in Blood Angels, you can take the three Death Company Dreadnoughts, right?

Yeah. The problem with the Death Company Dreads is OC0, but it is good. Yeah.

It hits hard. It hits hard. And Blood Surge at D6 plus 2 is pretty solid.

On a vehicle. I like that with Bjorn. If you're going to take an Ironstorm, I think that would belong in an Ironstorm, personally.

That could also do well in a Black Templar Righteous Crusader build. Because you give it all six of Fjallraven. That's not terrible. Can you fit Bjorn and Stormraven in there? To carry the...

Yes, but it's a lot closer than you want. You get a unit to hold your home field and that's it. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we're not worried about that, Jack. We're running Dreadnoughts down into our opponent.

Down main. Yeah. You also have Ballistus that can like park on an objective you've secured and start shooting.

Yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah. I don't think that's a bad list.

I really don't. I think in Ironstorm that's pretty scary. Miles E., thanks so much for your $5 super chat.

Happy Thursday, Jack and Richard. I do enjoy my GK list gaining a free 10 to 20 points. Was running five-man turmys and a Skatros may have made my list.

This is the first time you can really consider a Skatros, which is the Admech Stiltzman. And the reason is that he is now one of the cheapest loan ops in the game. He's 50 points. All he is is a loan op.

Don't pretend he does anything else. But 50 points for a loan op? That's actually not bad. That's not terrible.

That's legitimately pretty good. I wish he did a thing, but we can't have everything. In the absence of that.

In the absence of that, he is cheap enough where you can actually consider taking him. 60 points was too much. Ryan G making a good point that Endless Swarm is deader than dead now because the detachment rule used to let you blood search infinitely.

Listen, if you did not get the memo before when Endless Swarm was nerfed to, you know, it was nerfed really hard. Yeah, it was one revive, cull the horde came into existence. And now blood surging. Yeah.

Yeah, if you didn't get the memo on Endless Swarm then, then yes, Endless Swarm now is worse. Then we have John Apocalypse. Thanks so much for the super chat.

Best number of... Masters of Executioners with Legionaries. It took me a second. In Packbound, yes. I know Nick had run two of them in the past with two different legionary units, and he's since dropped them and just runs five-man legionaries because I think he prefers Lords with Chosen for a damage package.

I think so, yeah. And then Colin Walker $2 super chat. Thank you so much three tank commanders meta incoming guard medic guard meta is real 100% real be prepared. I see somebody A little confused as to why guard meta it's because bull grin Listen took all the sins of guard onto their back and got sunk by a massive nerf to bull grin But the rest of guard is just free to run wild And they gained Acolynes.

Yeah, they basically scapegoated, like, just put all of the problems in the world. It's your fault, Bolgrin. It's like the woman pointing at the cat, and the cat is the Bolgrin crying.

Yeah. So, like, Bolgrin took a huge nerf. But Guard as an army is pretty, has a pretty deep bench, and is pretty, like, is really good.

And they just gained Acolynes. So, like, that army is still ripped. roaring ready to go so good still so good man it's when you're like right below the top but you're damn good and then only one thing takes nerfs and everything else is fine and you're like heck yeah the rest of the guard army held up bulgrim like the the human shields that they are just take them just like they held them up in front they got shot and the rest of the army the ufo flew over the guard army and they just lifted up bulgrim uh Tank commanders got the squadron keyword. Absolutely they did.

Yes, they did, and that's huge. Which means that Leontes doesn't have to order them anymore. Yep.

They can be ordered by themselves. They also gain lethal hits on all their guns, into monsters and vehicles. And they gain access to overwhelming fields or overlapping fields of fire. They went up like 15 points?

Something like that. Yeah. Something I will 100% take that. Yeah. No, they went up 20, I think.

Because I think they're now 240 with the enhancement that used to be 220. I'll take 20 for gaining that keyword. Alright, GSC. They gained points drops on key units and they have been sneaky good this time.

We've been seeing them do well in the meta and now they have three viable builds. They have their index detachment, they've got the biosancting melee list, and then they have the outlander claw high OC trading style. Yeah, I'm going to be 100% with you. People were starting to figure the GSC book out. I don't know.

For sure, they needed a buff. We'll never know, really. I'm just going to put them where they belong. We won't know. But, like, Biosanctic was starting to do some good things.

Innes was starting to do some good things with Outlander Claw. Nick done some really good things at DreamHack with Host of Ascension. It's three different detachments that people are starting to figure out, starting to do really well with.

I think they did need a buff. I think they probably did. But it's possible that they did not. And they got one. Now, I think it's probably for the best that they got a buff.

I do think it is. The army was being figured out. That doesn't mean that most players were having like an awesome time with the army. So I think they probably did need a buff. They got a pretty sizable one.

But I think there is a reality out there that is possible that they did not need it. And they got it. And we'll see. We'll see. I think it's a very interesting army right now.

I'm excited to play with it. I'm excited to play against it. It is legit. Yeah, it's a good army now.

Like, actually just a good army. Then we have Robocon. Thanks so much for joining at the Wyrm gold level.

Really appreciate your support, and can't wait to see you in the Discord and hanging out with us. Glad to have you in, Gavin. All right, we got...

That's right, I know who you are. Necrons. So, Necrons got... Uh...

A couple decreases to certain things. The Trike Stalker went down. Trike Praetorians went down.

Both of those are pretty interesting. The Command Barge and the Annihilation Barge went down, as well as the Doomsday Arc. That one's kind of surprising because it was seen in most Necron lists or Hyper Crypt lists where you'd see two to three of them.

So them going down is pretty nice. Monolith did go up 25 points. I still think you can effectively run the same style list.

Locust Destroyers went up five. Heavy Locust went up five. Deathmarks went up five.

A lot of the cheaper trash units went up just a bit. But effectively, it means you drop one trash unit, you can almost run the same list. If you're running double monolith, you have to drop a more significant unit.

I cannot believe that the Doomsday Arc came down. Yes, it came down 10 points. That is the most inexplicable change. I don't know. Some of these units for Necrons seem to get, like, very inexplicable changes.

Like, the fact that some stuff went up, but the, uh... But back when Conoptic Court was doing really, really good things, the Doomstalker never went up. I was very confused by that. The DDA is one of the corner piece units of one of the best Necron builds.

And it went down? I'm confused. I don't know. I expected to say the same, honestly.

I think the Monolith getting the brunt of the nerf is probably correct. But it went down, so you're still going to see it all over the place. You'll probably see triple Doomsday Arc 1 Monolith a bit more common. The Tesseract Vault also went up, but then Silent King gained Triarchs.

So Obasin's Phalanx has more things going on. Is it going to be good enough? Probably is not better than Hyper Crypt. It might be better than Awakening Court, but... Probably still not.

But it's at least more viable than it was, which was almost useless. So that's a very nice change there. And Triarch Praetorians being viable does help that out. Same with the Stalker. Yeah, you were telling us about that yesterday.

Yeah, I'm definitely going to run those. I am definitely going to be running those on stream soon in the next Necron game. So Necrons for me, their biggest nerf is not actually the point changes. It's the change to secret missions.

Because Necrons is an army, at least the Hypergrip style, that has... problem if you're able to attack its primary in that it doesn't have a lot of things that want to stand on objectives and not a lot of high OC things if you're not running the warrior bricks, which is rare. And so if you fall behind on primary, you can't guarantee just get 35, 40 points bottom of five with a secret mission anymore.

That's going to be a big nerf because Necrons are going to have to find more ways to contest objectives, which doesn't rely solely on shooting your opponent the whole game. So I think that Is going to stop them from being a big winner here. I think they're just a winner. Yep. For sure.

We're going to see that. Especially coming. Coming up as well.

That. Armies that were. Good. Solid. Like A tier armies.

That didn't change. They're loving life. And as I said. Armies that were like in C tier. And didn't change.

Are obviously. Not loving life. Space Wolves. Space Wolves. Wolf Jail.

Yeah. I mean. Wolf Jail went up. I think they went up. 10 per 3. So, like, that's a hit.

It's not that bad. I don't... And the army lost, you know, jump pack intercessors went up 10. I believe they went up 10 per 3. Let me double check. I believe they're 110 now for 3. I could be wrong.

I think it's 120, 240. Okay, that is expensive. I think it's 20 points they went up. If they went up 20 per 3, that is sizable.

Yeah, they did. They did go up. That's sizable.

Logan went up 15. Bjorn went up 10. Bjorn went up 10. Yeah, I know because he's my boy. Plus JPI, that's like 150 point, 160. That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot.

That's more than I remembered off the top of my head. Yeah, because it's 40 per six man. So if you're running the three, it's 120. And then your ancillary stuff went up like 30. Yeah, that army got hit pretty bad. Got hit pretty bad. What I will say is that I do think there's a sleeper building there.

that is the Sons of Rust or the Champions of Rust. I think Champions of Rust is a sneaky good build, especially on some terrain formats. Like if you get that on table seven at a team event, you're going to kill people. Dead.

Probably hits. It does really hit. I know you were running a lot of the other units that aren't seen in Wolf Jail, and so they didn't change. Yeah.

I was running three-man Thundercalf, and I'd have to really think about if I wanted to still do that. Just to buff up a character that hits pretty hard. But you don't need them. You don't need them at all.

You've got other options. You've got other options. I think that build is sneaky good. I really do. So where would you put it?

You think it's... Definitely loser. Straight up loser. Okay. Yeah.

If you're running Stormlance, honestly, I would say it's a significant nerf. In the vein of Black Templar. Which is the dominant build. Yeah.

I think if... It's basically the same as the Black Templar nerf. Yeah. The build that you had got hit really hard. There might be other builds in there that I think are pretty decent, but that does not mean it isn't a big loser.

It didn't take a significant amount. It did. Bonsai Kitty Gaming, thanks so much for your super chat.

Would you agree any list can 3-2 if piloted right? 100%. Absolutely.

It can be a joke list too. I think, honestly, any list piloted well could go 4-1. Yeah.

At most. Like a 32-person GT. I think if the house here high-fived and all took Imperial Agents, I would be surprised if we lost more than six games between the five of us at a super major or a major. I mean, I'd have to get some reps. I think someone would go X and two. Most people would go X and one.

It is not impossible one of us wins. I think any army can do well if piloted right. We're at that point. Player skill matters significantly more.

If you have a good list baseline and you pilot it well, you should do very well right now. I would say not every list can, like... I'm saying like the best list in every army. If you build a halfway decent army out of that, if you build a halfway decent list out of the army, you should be able to go.

If you're building a random anvil siege force list, I'm sorry, it's going to be tough. Yeah. If you build as good an anvil siege force list as you can, I guarantee we could go 3-2 with it.

Yeah. George Cartilage, thanks so much for your super chat. With this slight change to Riptide points, is there any reason why you wouldn't include three of them?

Still, and what might you replace the third with if you only ran two? Love your videos, guys. Thanks so much. You have a couple options, and it really depends on what detachment that you're running. If you're running Manka and Kaoyan, there's a real reason to think about running Skyraise.

I have personally really liked running Skyraise as my support. They're a good guider. They're efficient by themselves, so they don't need to be guided most of the time.

They have full reels against flies, so they're very good into certain armies, just baseline. and it's high-strength, twin-linked, and you get a reroll to hit. That's just a very good profile, and they can, from very long range, just pick away at stuff, and they outrange most armies quite significantly. So those are quite good. You could go for double broadside.

Now that's 10 points cheaper. You use them in strat reserve. You come down and you railgun something off the table.

You could go for hammerheads instead. I think there's a lot of options. You could also spend...

spend a bit more and go get sunforge with a commander i like starforge and then you're speaking my language then you have a rapid ingress threat so there are options all across tau tau has one of the best internal balances if you still love riptides this isn't going to change anything no they're still pretty good you're going to cut a piranha and be like cool whatever doesn't matter uh or if you're running like a crew talks cool at the crew talks he's gone used to run the same list um but if you want to think about other options or if you want to run two of them and save those points Any of those other options that I mentioned will be viable and good. Robocon, gifting five Art of War 40k memberships. Thank you. It turns out if I do say that I know who you are and I threaten you, apparently, it works. It works really well.

And you also got David Gaylord with your... You did. You did. You got him. Got him, boys.

He 3.1'd away right behind David. Nothing personnel kid who's a membership. He's got the Akelon experience now. And then the membership Vindicare went and gifted a sub to Soren Knudsen.

Thank you so much. Or is it Knudsen? Knudsen.

I'm not sure how to pronounce it, but welcome. You're here, yeah. Colton, my dread idea Repulsor Destroyer, Hover Dread, 14...

Oh, these are What? The funny new dreadnought ideas? A hover dread with 14-inch move?

With a huge chest, acid flamer. Sure. Overwatch threat, baby. And deals mortal wounds.

I would like to see a dreadnought that just sprays fire everywhere. I think that would be neat. I don't think a hover dread makes a lot of sense.

In Talbot would. i suppose or votan he's just got like repulsors on the end of his votan have hover tech they could use a dreadknight size thing um but yeah aoe mortals sounds like a ninth edition thing yes less of that please uh well it's definitely a 10th edition thing because there are plenty of units that are like hey everyone near me takes a mortal but like a lot i mean yeah that's that that's true no don't remember the malice up there chest acid flamer sounds like you just want a ball predator then uh or a redeemer Or Redeemer. Ryan G, $2 super chat.

Thank you so much. Are long fangs good now? They did go down. They don't really mesh well with what you're trying to do, and they're better shooting marine units is what I would say. They're fairly short range.

They're still fairly unreliable. You can run them if you want. I forget how much they went down by.

They're $120 for five, I believe. That's the same price as Devastators were. Are they still get an extra special weapon?

You have to pay for that. You have to pay. That's not free. You got to pay for that.

Paying for war gear? I don't believe it. It's 120 for five, 145 for six.

Okay, so yeah, you do have to pay for the six one. Huh. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I don't think they're really necessary. You want to hit hard in combat and have tools.

And long fangs don't really fit in there. Kind of short range. Gladiator tanks are quite solid. You could still go for eradicators.

They're a solid anti-tank platform. A bit closer range, obviously, but... Long fangs just aren't special.

They don't do anything especially well. Do they ignore hit mods? So their abilities are, if it remains stationary, you pick an enemy unit visible to the long pack leader, and you reroll hit rolls of one.

Every gun there is heavy, so to hit on threes, you need to stand still, then you reroll hit rolls of one against one particular target, and after making a hit roll for the unit, once per game, you can change it to a six. Whoever wrote remain stationary rules doesn't play Warhammer. Yeah, you can hand any number of the long fangs, not the pack leader, a multi-melta, plasma cannon, missile launcher, las cannon, heavy flamer, heavy bolter, or grav cannon.

It's not that good. Just not that good. Like a bunch of random space marine infantry toting around heavy weapons and shooting is very like 8th edition.

It just doesn't work right now. It's not really what we're looking to do. Banzai Kitty Gaming joining at the gold tier.

Thank you so much, Banzai. Really appreciate your long-term support. I know it doesn't say months here, but you've been with us a long time. I always remember reading your comments in chat.

So thank you so much. And then Doug Hensing, thank you so much for your $5 super chat. Someone run Crimson Fist.

I am that guy. first company detachment with pedro slash the blade guard ancient plus one attack enhancement and blade guard pop the buffs plus three attacks per model i am that guy maybe i'll take that to wcw good crimson fist baby run the meme back let's go we're back baby once per game your blade guard have seven attacks depends on what these uh marine buffs are in december uh maybe i'll bust the crimson fist back out uh but yeah that's not wcw but you know yeah it's okay There is an amount of money where I will play Crimson Fist to Worlds with no shame. We've seen that.

We've seen that. All right. Thank you so much for that super chat.

We've got Tau. So Tau gets, we mentioned the Riptide nerf. Then they had Piranhas went up five, Krutox, the solo ones went up five, and a couple other units. But for the most part, points nerfed are meh. And then they got, Farsight went down 10. The Krut units went down a decent amount all over the place.

And at the end of the day, the crew detachment, if you like it, is quite a bit more valuable than it previously was, as it's much more reasonably costed. However, you're still probably going to run one of the other three detachments. And at the end of the day, Tau benefit a lot from the other armies, especially Sisters.

That was one of Tau's worst matchups by far. Yeah, that sounds awful. Now, triple exorcist is going to be an absolute pain for sure, but they will have less stuff, and that alone will help this matchup a lot.

I personally... I know we've been talking about Rek Kadre. I personally think Rek Kadre is like a pretty big sleeper, and it did not get touched nearly at all. If you were running Riptide, the Riptide.

If you're running Riptides, it got hit like 20 points or so. Or in solo Piranhas. But I largely think the build is intact, ready to go.

Yeehaw. Let's do it. I think they're alongside Tyranids, where they were one of the better right below armies, and they didn't change, so they're just a big winner.

I would tend to. Or O to their clear winner. And then World Eaters, last one. So World Eaters took nothing but nerfs.

If I didn't particularly like Gorn Berserkers, I felt like they were over-costed for what I was trying to do. A lot of people loved them, and they were part of the standard meta build, and they got hit really bad. Them only having one blood surge is pretty bad for them because they survived off of a lot of the time.

Like it would take three activations to clear them. Can you risk that they get into you on the second one and then the character hits you? Them only blood surging once is really not good for them. You can still take them, I suppose.

The master of executions went up somewhat inexplicably. But that's not good for berserkers. I'm sure people will still run them.

You know, people will still make them work. And... Then the rest of the list went up a little bit, right?

Spawn went up five. Not going to change my opinion of them. I'm still taking two to three units of them every single time.

I think they're insane. I would take them at 75 or 80. I don't care that they're at 70. Then Angron went up 25, I think. I think he's 435 now.

I could be wrong. I believe that's correct. He went up 20, if that's the case. I'm pretty sure. Yeah.

It doesn't matter. I barely even know exactly what his points cost is because he's just the first thing I populate into the list. So like I, my list personally had about like 40 weird floating awkward points.

Now it doesn't. I think the standard like Anthony Vanilla build definitely took a pretty big hit here. I'd be interested to see what direction he chooses to go with that.

The build with a bunch of Berserkers only gained a blood surge once and the Master of Execution is going up and Angron going up. It's not great. I think that build is still going to be fine.

I don't think it's wrecked or anything. But I definitely think the Khorne Berserkers are feeling it with the surge changes. Would you say loser? Loser.

I would definitely say that. They're definitely not a winner. They didn't get anything good.

So I would put them in loser. They're still a good army, though. My list didn't really change because I had awkward floating 40 points, and now I don't.

I wasn't using Khorne Berserkers. So my army has not gotten worse. But I definitely think most people's and certainly the most like the builds that people were taking to the most success did get hit.

um i do think that um that uh forge fiends are really a good way to go with world leaders i really do i i've liked the double fortunes i've been playing a lot actually all right we got a couple more super chats before we wrap up we got zach point thanks so much for five minutes super chat how you doing zach looking forward to this meta keep up the good content siegs what do you think about the new vespid or cheaper carnivores i was pretty much always running 10 carnivores and the reason was is that It wasn't as much for the Sticky, that's nice, especially against Tyranids, but really why I was running them is I wanted something that I didn't need to observe with, holding my backfield. And if I put Piranhas back there, I was like, I'd rather just have more bodies screening out the backfield than one thing. And so I was like, what else can I run? So I went for the Groot Carnivores.

With them going down 10, 100%, I'm still running them. I like them just holding the backfield objective, or sitting on my expansion if I don't think the backfield will ever be under threat. And then in terms of Vespid, I think the Vespid, the new ones are auto-take.

Having something that goes up at the end of your opponent's turn is fantastic for late game points when the game gets skirmishy. So I think one is mandatory for any tile list, and I might have two in a lot of my lists. Yeah. Because I'm that type of guy who likes them.

It's also good for a rapid ingress in. Who's that guy? I am that guy.

So the rapid ingress in and then go contestant objective, they're just good overall. I like them. And I'm very happy that they didn't increase the five-man cost by, like, forcing...

like a rail rifle they if they force the rail rifle into the five man we're like this should cost like 15 extra points because it has a special weapon that would have been no bueno but because it's five basic dudes for 65 100 love it um and then i don't really see the reason to take the 130 man maybe in monca when you can get full re-rolls on the unit the hundred and the full man yeah the 130 yeah the 10 man yeah sweet so yeah the i think both of them are in a great spot and then whiskey thanks so much for your five dollar super chat hey jack Do you think the Lord of Skulls is back to being interesting for world leaders, with Dark Angels, Blood Angels being challengers in melee? Yeah, I think the Lord of Skulls is actually legitimately pretty good. It's a little under-costed, which is perfect, and it has a lot of things it does that's very interesting for a world leader's army. I've been playing a lot of teams, and it's terrible in teams, because world leaders have to attack, and then your opponent can just pick a board where the Lord of Skulls can't move around.

Although on GW, that's less. Viable than it was before it's like layout one is the only way one kind of sucks for you layout sevens not amazing But then the rest of your armies on layout seven so layout eight who's the Joker now? So like layout one layout seven are still fine for your army like you can you can take it to teams I think it's pretty good I think the Lord of Skulls is particular is a is a pretty good viable way to run the army for sure Thanks so much. And then we have a mini Freddy.

Thanks so much for your five. You're a super chat guys. A bit late on the train, but could you explain all the fuss and the idea behind triple exorcist sisters? Well, it is the fact that they have an AP three indirect fire platform. AP three on indirect is quite rare, so it doesn't ignore cover 10 too, but it's strength 10. It has a, it's damage output looks swingy and it is on the hit rolls.

But then in terms of damage, if you have miracle dice at the time, you can just. guarantee that you get the damage done there was multiple games where brian was playing his votan and dream hack and we shoved him directly he was first offender and every time they had a sister's army with exorcist they were like this is going in there and we were like you're taking it brian good luck good sir and he would take it and he would sit there with his votan army and try and draw the game and multiple times he lost a land fort out of nowhere just on turn one because they would just be like oh I rolled my first miracle dice was a six. So here you take this and then I roll another like two more go through. You're dead. Yep.

And that was with void armor cover. Yeah. Because on a T12 platform. You do fail saves sometimes. They do wound you.

AP three matters a lot. AP three matters a lot. If it was AP two, that'd be so much better. Or strength nine or something.

Strength 10 AP three is just, what are we doing? Like it's actually good at killing almost anything behind a wall. Especially when you remember it's not D6 damage.

it's flat six a sizable amount of the time or whatever it is that would kill you right when you're down to four wounds it's not a 50 50 if they get you or not like if it goes through you're just dead and it's just good anti-tank good anti a lot of things actually from elite infantry from downtown that you can't prevent It's the kind of indirect that was like the Manticores were, right? Like, I thought we moved past this. I thought we solved this. But then Exorcists come out and can shoot, like, a unit of crisis suits to death from across the board.

What are we doing? The only silver lining here is that they'll hit on fours because of the indirect rule. Yeah, no way around that. However, they can just spike amount of shots and they get a couple extra hits and all of a sudden you're taking lots of damage.

And with three of them, it starts to become a heck of a lot more consistent. So it's going to be a problem. It's unfortunate.

Yeah. A lot of sisters went up, so they didn't. It's like a clear sign.

Hey, sisters, players, have you considered taking triple exorcist? And then you can shoot them direct. This is what a lot of the sisters players were doing is they would just say, oh, your opponent did expose things.

We don't even need to shoot the indirect. Let's just blow them up from from direct line of sight. And then they're pretty efficient.

Yeah, at Champs Cup, I got to watch Typhus, who is a phenomenal player, pair into Tau a bunch of times. And the Tau player goes, oh my god, he out-shoots me. Oh my god, he out-shoots me. Like, easily out-shoots me and is shooting me.

If we're both hiding, I'm losing units and he's not. And if I expose first, then he just shoots me with his whole army and kills me. And yeah, that's what happened a bunch of times. Happened to really good Tau players, too, like Andrew Gagneau.

Yeah. uh siege roots i am still looking for suppressors email contact at the art of war 40k.com if you're looking to part with some of them and i'd be happy to message you back um we've got a couple more super chats here one of which is from siege roots thank you so much for your five dollar super chat because we've gotten all the armies here by the way we have all of them so we're just i can switch over chats now messing around with a vanguard list with calgar with 10 heavy intercessors with apothecary biologis with infiltration enhancement just to put them in mid-board objective That is an annoying unit to deal with. It's a very annoying unit to deal with, and Kalgar does punch pretty hard. I think you still want Eradicators because you'd like the unit that starts in mid-board to do things, or Aggressors, although Eradicator's probably better.

But yeah, that unit combination is cheap as hell and really tough. Absolutely. And then Cedric's joined at the Wyrm Silver.

Thank you so much. Really appreciate your support, and I look forward to your message. Then we have Karr...

Care Bear Warfare, $10. Super chat, thank you. Why does GW point Toxicrine and Old One Eye the same?

Toxicrine sculpt is brutal and its stats meh. Toxicrine to 135 or AP 2. That's the more offensive thing, is that Toxicrine is more expensive than an Exocrine. It's wild, man. Okay, come on. Yeah, I agree it needs something, whether that's to justify its points cost or lower its points cost.

One of the two. And we have Mike Pierce. Thank you so much for your five pound super chat with Death Guard infected objectives.

If I shoot my enemy off the infected objectives and move another unit onto it, will I get Nurgle gift if I overwatch? I think so. I don't know, man.

That's a very technical rule. If you move your unit back onto it, I believe you reestablish Nurgle's gift, I think. But check with your TO.

And then we have Lord Penn. Thank you so much for your super chat. Any thoughts of going for 10-man JPIs now? They stayed at the same 160 points. You don't get a second Power Fist, which is kind of obnoxious.

They're all right in Blood Angels. I don't think that they hit hard enough to justify 160. Like, they just don't hit that hard outside of Blood Angels. And in Blood Angels, you could consider... 10-man jump pack intercessors, but you really would have wanted to have them with a sanguinary priest. You can't do that anymore.

So probably not. Probably not. I think the 10-man legitimately needed to get cheaper, like be 150. Because the thing that people liked JPI for was being this cheap trade resource, cheap run out and do things resource.

And as a 10-man, it doesn't really do the hit hard. be durable, justify my points cost role. It doesn't really do that.

In Liberator Assault Group, it can punch up. It can. But that's kind of the only example. Maybe in Champions of Rust, too.

Possibly. I would have really liked to take a second Power Fist per five. That would have been more interesting, but I'm pretty sure it's just the Sergeant. I'll double check now, actually.

I have the Codex. Well, and then we have Ace12342. Thank you so much for your $5 super chat. You spoke of flooding the board with boys. Is the Green Tide Detachment viable with this new up?

update um i think green tide still still struggles with the fact that call the horde is can be quite brutal and there are several armies in the game that have outrageous amounts of firepower to go into those boys even with the five of you know pains uh healing back is great but i think i think war horde and the more msu style is gonna is gonna dominate we've already seen over the last couple months war horde has continued to increase its win rate as people return to the index detachment It just is a very solid suite of rules, and it benefits a lot of different units. And I think the MSU style with the new points is probably going to end up being better. I agree. You do get a lot of boys, but the thing to keep in mind is that the boys aren't actually that durable.

They're all right durable in green tide, I suppose, or something. But they're not actually that durable. And that's not the part of the list that's doing the thing that I like.

The thing that I like is having those boys be inside of trucks. So to kill the truck and the dudes inside, you first need to get anti-tank on target, then kill the truck, which sometimes can be a little swingy with like it's in vault and whatnot. And then the unit gets out, sometimes behind a wall, oftentimes behind a wall, and then you have to go dig them out. That activation, like the problem is your opponent has to activate like multiple times to deal with all that.

That is a lot different to just having more boys. Having more boys is a damage check. The MSU variant that has a lot of vehicles and infantry is a sequencing issue on your opponent's part that makes it a lot harder to deal with you also get a lot more just like blanket unit count so if your opponent has one unit that hits really hard it'll kill a truck right it'll kill a squad of boys it won't kill a squad of 20 boys plus characters that you've invested into also all of these like random units can run in and start jamming up your opponent tagging them which you can't really do as well in green tide without exposing the units that your opponent then just gets to dump damage into.

So I like the MSU version. I don't love just going, what if I have the most possible boys? I don't think it's that great.

All right. Well, that looks like the end of the super chats there. Thank you so much. Everybody who's joined us, who's been hanging out, who's super chatting, who's just been having a great time about 40K and talking about it.

Really appreciate all your support. Please give us a like, subscribe to the channel and tell your friends about us. Also, all of that massively helps us grow.

In addition. Please leave a comment below letting us know how you're feeling about the update. What are you excited for?

What are you going to be playing? We love reading the comments and hearing from you. So please do leave one. In addition, if you want to see some new content related to the brand new meta, some new list ideas, well, guess what?

We've already released three new games. CSM versus Aldari. We've got Blood Angels versus GSC.

And then today we just released Ultramarines Vanguard versus Thousand Suns. More will be coming soon with Jack mentioning Sisters versus Orcs. We're going to play...

all the different armies over the coming weeks. And we're going to, starting next week, start releasing State of the Faction videos for every single army in the game with new list ideas and our overall thoughts on the faction and their place in the meta. So please do check out The Wyrm at thewyrm.vhx.tv.

You'll also get access to our awesome international Discord community. And we'll love hanging out with you in there and talking 40K all the time. It's a really lovely place, and we're eager to see you there.

So thank you so much for all your support. We really appreciate it. and we'll see you all next time for a lot more.

So long for now.