foreign and it went over a million next notification I got it said like The Rock Dwayne Johnson The Rock yeah yeah like Yeah The Rock yeah I just I looked at it and then immediately just like put it down like that didn't happen so it turned out I had my first panic attack that was terrible thought I was dying what is going on this is John with the Dr John deloney's show show we talk about your mental health your emotional health what's going on in your marriage what's going on on in your bedroom what's going on with your kids whatever you got going on in your world my promise is I'll walk alongside you and we'll figure out the next right step for two decades thousands and thousands of people I've sat with when when the wheels have fallen off talk to groups across the country what do we do next and I don't know much but I do know how to sit with folks and say all right let's figure out what to do next I'm so grateful for you all just giving up your time just sit with us and um listen to the show and apply some of these things into your life uh yesterday I was in Arkansas speaking at a university and after I spoke I came and sat down and the president of the University followed up and was on the stage and I won't embarrass him because I know it would but a an extraordinary man showed up walked all the way down the aisle in front of everybody wearing his um facilities and maintenance shirt and he's sitting next and he just leaned over and said I listened to the show every single day and it's helped my marriage it's helped my family it's helped me thank you so much and I just I was almost I was trying not to weep as I was able just to receive his hug such a gift but that's what he shows for folks who are just trying to do a little bit better in their home just trying to figure out what comes next so if you want to be on the show go to John deloney.com ask a-s-k and if you don't want to be on the show thank you for listening thank you for sharing it and for your fancy reviews all right today very special episode incredible episode if you are an Instagram person surely you know who the Kardashians are and right after the Kardashians you know who Jefferson Fisher is Jefferson Fisher is a um a really renowned trial attorney um young guy in Houston Texas or just outside of Houston and what's unique about Jefferson is he was one of my students when I was a dean of students at a law school now I say that I came in and he was already a third year student who basically him and a couple of others ran the law school and he already was brilliant already was an incredible scholar an incredible um about to be licensed attorney so when I say like he was one of my students you know I can take no credit for his nunchuck skills but I do like to walk around and tell everybody he was one of my students because he has become one of the most followed people on Instagram he is a an attorney who has decided to take the skills that attorneys learn on how to deconstruct have hard conversations how to make people annoyed how to get people to say certain things and he's taking those skills and he gives very simple bite-sized lessons on how to be a better dad how to be a better husband how to be a better wife how to be a better neighbor and Community member and as you can imagine they've just blown up the other day I was I was texting him back and forth because the number one comment on his post was from The Rock The Rock you know that guy who I have about the same upper body so anyway Jefferson um was here in Nashville um somebody that I just care a lot about I have higher high respect for and um I've just been amazing it's been amazing to watch him grow up if you will from a law student to somebody who now has a team of attorneys working for them and more importantly or as importantly is now taking his message um Global which is just just powerful what we talk about on the show we talk about deconstructing hard conversations how to have them what does anxiety and panic look like in somebody that's not a mental health professional somebody that's got it all together somebody that would set would tell you this doesn't happen to me and it does um how to be a better dad how to be a better husband we talk about all of it um he's incredibly well spoken it's embarrassing to talk next to him um when you're a mumbler like me and he's so clear and concise um because that's he's clearing concise for a living but he's also an incredible dad an incredible husband to his amazing also attorney wife um I just can't wait for you just to to be a fly on the wall of this conversation my time with my good friend former student and guy who I'm now in awe of Jefferson Fisher stay tuned it's not uncommon at all um like over the last 20 years I've thousands of students I've interacted with and so over the last few years as I've transitioned into this wild new world yeah um students will reach out and say hey man it's good to see you or it's so weird seeing you whatever and that's all awesome right so you reach out and I get this note and it's like uh hey man it's on Instagram on Instagram proud of you you're doing awesome it's great to see you and I was like ah thanks yeah yeah but I treated it kind of like oh that's cute and like kind of perfect and I felt that I was like Hey there you go you go man go buddy yeah and you mentioned something like I'm kind of Dipping my toes into this world yeah yeah then uh send that message off and then I go to it and I'm like two million who is this guy's like super famous and so I started going through your stuff yeah and it's it's extraordinary right thanks man the main reason I would have you here one is um almost all of the people that reach out to our show are facing boundary issues with their in-laws or facing a husband who's hasn't hit them yet but it's abusive right or they're staring at their seven-year-old and their 14 year old they don't know what to do right or the two-year-old and three-year-old yeah or their sex life falling apart and they don't know how to have a conversation about what happens next yeah what you have emerged like like almost overnight which we all know is a Decades of practice right is like really a world-class teacher on hey say it like this instead of like this and it's it's so counter-cultural that it's and it's such a gift to people and you've got a clear way and I'm always telling the folks who who watch the show I mean if you get pissed off at your wife or husband there's nothing wrong with you right you probably got a generation of wiring and genetics and the way you your parents treated you like you've got all these things what you don't have a set of skills a set of tools correct and so I thought this would be awesome to run some scenarios by you and you can teach me decision this is not my family because I'm perfect this is clearly for everybody right right right right so the person X grows up in a home whose mom's real domineering dad was real quiet just hid behind a newspaper by his behind his iPad and there's this inner rage that happens then your wife comes home 20 years later and that same story just kicks up again right yeah so husband gets home he drives up the driveway wreck real fast dinner was at six they had just had like a a marriage Retreat a few months before where he was going to work really hard on being on time because it she felt his wife felt disrespected right he drives up he's 45 minutes late and he's already preparing the story right and he was at work but he's also just kind of scrolling on crap and joking around and laughing or whatever and he actually feels bad that he's late but then he also feels pissed that she's gonna get mad that he was late because I've been working so hard and I can't just spend 15 freaking minutes talking to my buddies right yeah so he walks in the two kids are there already halfway through the meal and then he gets that mix of anger and shame like I should be here with my family and how dare they start without me it happens at the same time yeah right and he looks at her and she just has that look like I thought things gonna be different and he launches into a story well dude I was walking out the door and then so and so came by clearly making this up yeah and she knows he's lying and she's at a Breaking Point and she thinks I got him and suddenly we're at a proxy war over here and we're fighting about you lied and you uh never tell the truth like this whole thing happened yeah what are some ways that a she can defuse that situation yeah and B actually get to a place of where we can interact right it's a hard spot to be you find yourself on the same Battlefield that you felt like you were you had already won yeah you know you have this kind of this one-on-one that's hey we had this meeting of the minds we had an understanding and then something happens and you fall back into ordinary life and all of a sudden you realize we don't even know each other again it's almost sense of betrayal very much so in this the sense of I thought we had a pact I thought we had a baseline connection and all of a sudden you realize that connection is is broken like in a like a light switch Yeah if you're gonna have a light on there's that circuitry that connects them but if it's switched off then it's then it's broken then then it's dark and then you're going I can't see where are you where am I and you have that sense of I'm just feeling around and and that's scary for both people and if I'm sitting in that room you know at a thousand foot View and I'm looking at this family that is going through the same thing both of our family I mean everybody's family yeah I mean I can anybody can relate to that um what comes to mind is three things one you can't have that conversation in front of the kids I believe you're in a similar mindset of there are certain things you talk about in front of your kids and certain things you you don't because and from what I recall I mean growing up if my parents got in an argument I thought my life was over you know what I mean like like if they were in an argument I mean even with my kids if my wife and I are just doing something easy they're like what's what's happening yeah yeah that shakes them they don't need that second of all is there is a power and timing and a power and discernment and knowing when to have that conversation so you know it's not then and then you know it's later this guy's coming in she already knows that he's late he knows what he did wrong is there's no question right and so whenever he comes in she has a choice at that moment do I become the attacker or do I choose later in that moment to have a conversation to connect again to see if this is something he's willing to fix and you have that's hard man very hard yeah because I want to hit him there's nothing easy about it but but you play it out you play it out that what's she gonna do she stands up oh really you're going to be late oh okay yeah I guess it's gonna be cold uh go ahead and do it in the microwave hey kids guess dad didn't want to come home for dinner you go I mean and there it's off and then all of a sudden you are the bad one yeah you you've already ruined it and if somebody is a scolded dog coming in there's no use kicking them right then I mean they already know and so what I would tell that Mom is you enjoy time with your kids you finish dinner you let's let's do bath time let's let's say prayers let's get them in bed and then you come back and sit down and say how was your day that's a power move man that's the flex of like you saying that even makes me go yeah yeah but imagine but imagine the the strength that you would also show oh yeah when you sit back and you go how's your day I mean that husband's going it's a power vacuum right yeah can you just please yell at me yeah yeah can you yell at me like I already know what I did wrong can you can we just what's up with you yeah but that ability to sit back and um have that bird's eye view of I can I become more confident and I become stronger the less that I put out I mean in the scenarios I give is it's very much if I add ice cubes to the water or you know ice cubes of the drink you diluted and many times we add way too many ice cubes we want to start off being angry we want to start off saying all the wrong things and when it's concentrated it's it's you're much more potent it's it's not easy I also think you give somebody well two things I'm going to touch on one there's been some kind of some turning in the psychological literature over the last decade or so about um it's really important actually to have some level of disagreement in front of your kids because there's a generation taught go fight in the back bedroom yeah and what you ended up with a group a generation of young people that started you know having getting married and then they'd have their first big fight and they hadn't had no reference point right oh this is over yeah we're breaking up we're getting divorced we've been married nine months but that's also you liar you like that she's ready to like come full force don't do that in front yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and and so the husband comes in and what he's wanting to do when he starts and he's already got a story he's going right so what he's wanting to do is control that narrative before she even has it out you'll see that a lot and you have a disagreement with somebody they want to they'll back up and back up and they'll say okay I came in and when I came in you did this and then that made me say this that made me say this right and so they then become a character in their story ah and that's what they're doing they've become they've become the author and the lead yeah you know and and the victim all in one and that's where you have the chance to continue to pull apart if if they're really invested in fixing that and owning that I mean because you're catching them in a lie essentially is what you're doing but there's also a moment where if you're truly invested and this is hard man especially if you've been in an abusive relationship over time if you're truly invested in healing there is a chance that at 4 48 as he was getting ready to leave his boss came in and said I have to have this before you walk out the door right and no text could have that happen um even though y'all had said hey if you're gonna be late just shoot me a text like the whole thing is Avalanches on you and you get upset you get frustrated that approach does give an Avenue for Humanity that's right for me to say give it a chance no really I was texting and driving because I was trying to catch my wife at the hospital I wasn't just this out of control yeah right yeah so there's some there's some Humanity there and also man it just vacuums power oh yeah yeah you become you become the most credible in the room yeah when that happens yeah and so a lot of the times you know as as an attorney I might have somebody who makes a snide comment in the courtroom and one of my favorite moves is let's say let's say you would we're at let's say we're at a deposition right now you're on the other side and I'm cross-examining you just like Dustin kind of did you said something like hey all you all you attorneys are the worst you know what you're the worst thing that could happen in this Society my favorite move is for me to just kind of take it in and go well maybe so that right there is just that little maybe so okay I give them nothing in return I dropped their words off a cliff they go but but you were supposed to catch that yeah I said I oh it's on the floor yeah yeah they're like no no you you were supposed to catch that and throw it back at me I said no I don't it's it's in the trash I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go pick that back up and so it's that that that thought of you are completely within your own control of how defensive you get so if you cannot measure your reaction then you measure your response and you do that in a way that always puts you as the most credible the most confident in the room but what a power Flex every time because it's they're expecting me to say oh really we're the worst in in the world what about you yeah yeah that's exactly right yeah me what about you yeah because the class it's like a kid coming up and hitting an adult as hard as they can and just not moving yeah and the kids like that's all I got yeah right I mean it's such a yeah I'm not going to push you back I don't have to right you're not gonna react oh that's even worse okay what you've given us is I think one of the most important and poignant and hardest lessons in human relationships which is nobody can truly make you do anything and man that's hard to learn yeah all right we'll be right back this episode is sponsored by betterhelp hey this is deloney I hope you all are doing well listen sometimes it's hard to get our brains to turn off and I know what I'm talking about I am the king of racing thoughts they've kept me up at night they've got me up early and kept me from connecting with people I love if you find your thoughts start to race right before bed or during other super inconvenient times a great way to make those racing thoughts slow down or stop is to talk them through and therapy gave me a place to do that so I could get off the negative thought treadmill learn positive coping skills set healthy boundaries and find some mental and emotional peace and it can help you too if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try better help is convenient because it's entirely online so it's flexible and can fit into your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and you can even switch therapists at any time for no extra charge so take a break from Raising Thoughts with better help visit betterhelp.com deloney today to get 10 off your first month that's better help h-e-l-p.com slash deloni how do I learn and I think it's a set of skills but if you grew up in a house where your job was the emotional regulation of the adults if it was your job to make sure your dad didn't get mad or mom was always saying hey you all need to do this because Dad's coming home and he's you know how he gets when or Dad's like oh dude your mom's about to get set off if you all don't get this the kids learn oh it's our job to make sure Mom and Dad are okay right which is a weight they can't no kid can carry no that transitions to adulthood either you're a spouse who takes [ __ ] on as your responsibility to make sure your husband or wife is happy at all times yeah or there's such an inner age that you circle the wagons around your own life and you're gonna get the life that you want whether you got to borrow up to the hill you're going to drive that car you're gonna live in that neighborhood in that house you're gonna marry this person you can do whatever you want ultimately the grenades that are thrown back and forth are well you made me fill in the blank or you said this thing so I couldn't just sit there and you did it like um everything is I have to or I'm in responsive the greatest Flex I've ever heard in my life ever ever was somebody was having a conversation with Jocko and they said so you're walking with your family down the street right former Navy SEAL jacked human beings just being in his presence is like yeah yeah I I need to go and on top he's in world class world world class Jiu Jitsu player so he guy says so somebody comes down the sidewalk and just confronts you and your family and it's like what's up man we got a problem he goes what do you do and driving said well I reach over and grab my wife's hand and my daughter's hand and we would just go to the side of the street and go that way and head home and the guy was flabbergasted it was like what but what about defending your wife's honor and like your kids and he said two really important things number one he said there are a handful of men on planet Earth who can defeat me in hand-to-hand combat and they do that for a living and he goes what honor do I get out of beating up some guy on the sidewalk yeah and then he said something that was super powerful he said if I have to wait until that moment to show my wife that I honor her I have failed her in every way the smartest thing is to get my family home safely I don't know if this guy's got a friend with guns or with bottles or with like I don't know right he's gonna go home and I remember thinking that ability to step out of Chaos in that moment right that's an egregious example on the street with a Navy SEAL 99 of us are at home yeah and our wife says that thing or a husband does that thing again right every time our kids come in and say this thing and every defense mechanism we have gears up and here we go right you had to cultivate over years an attorney's job is just to get and I you're at a place now I guarantee you they're like I'll get Jefferson I'll get it yeah you know what I mean like yeah I'll set them up oh it's a challenge now it's a game yeah like uh like and you know there's so much ego in the legal profession I'll get Jefferson I'd set him off what are some skills that people can practice to begin to back up detach as Jacob to disassociate to to take myself from in the middle of the hurricane to 30 000 feet where it's safe yeah what I tell my clients when that happens because I train them because somebody's about to try and knock them off kilter like you started with I have to train them and how not to let that happen yeah and you you're training people who have been like oh yeah their kids are not alive anymore oh yeah or they they think they had a leg amputated like you're dealing with people who have are highly charged right extremely highly charged people who who do have a chip on their shoulders somebody who has been a victim of something but it's it's even more than that I mean I am hired to handle other people's problems I get hired to handle somebody else's beef that's not even mine so somebody's other side's mad at me I'm like hey I didn't cause this there's a hundred bucks yeah but I'll be glad to step in right and then on the other side there's another attorney who's been hired to make me look bad like that's their sole purpose it's to ruin my case yeah you know and and that's and you have to coordinate and balance how I'm gonna have them communicate because how they represent themselves is everything and how they communicate and so what I always tell them is let your first word be your breath the first word out of your mouth is your breath and so when I instead of just say take a breath I say no make your first word I turn it into I mean like the affirmative yes here's an action yeah that's that's what first thing you say is your breath and because so often I mean and you know this that our body's tight our shoulders it gets up in our ears like we're just a dog with you know the back of the hair standing up ready to go but when you take a breath I just was you said it I did it and my body went yeah right it's physiologic right yeah oh yeah it's huge well yeah you're telling your body there's no threat oh God you know yeah and so too often when I respond to somebody in a way that is equaling their energy somebody comes in and makes a comment at me I have the choice in that moment do I do I try and man up I try and oh you want to have this measuring contest but if if I'm able to take their power away without doing any of that because I'm I'm telling my body and I'm telling them you're not a threat to me and like I physically I'm telling my body they're not a threat and with my words you know just like saying maybe so or I'll say you know well maybe you're right oh they go uh what do I do with this what do I what do I say now if I tell them maybe you're right you know they go all right uh I mean they have no words they have no words I mean too often then then they come back and later apologize yeah because now that now they're thinking you know what else why'd I say that yeah but but had I responded defensively they got exactly what they want then then I've Justified their next step then so if I come back with something you know with a another comment that gets defensive that's offensive to them I've given the rules of Zinger I've just given them a stepladder that's all I've done I mean they they they're throwing it out hoping that I take a bite you know and if you if you don't bite it then what you do you just kind of reel it back up and go home yeah nothing happened but there there is I mean not to generalize on multiple fronts here but I'm going to yeah you're a Texas male like I am right and there's a and I'm using that like broadly speaking there is a wired in response it's like you can't talk to me like that like yeah so for men and women or I'm tired of taking this or I've been taking this my whole life or yeah there is a truth to I'm going to respond in in the in the moment like this because I'm playing a different game and I'm playing I'm I'm working towards an outcome right but there's also that very human I'm driving home and I can't believe that dude said that yeah man that made me mad yeah so going back to that previous uh the previous law experiment yeah there's a wife and her husband comes home and she's lying and she sits down and immediately her first words are her breath [Music] how's your day not in a it's a check-in yeah not in a sarcastic way but a genuine like how's your day there's still that you told me you're gonna be on time yeah and now you're gonna rattle off some story yeah yeah right hey how do you give a process on the way home I can release I can have them release that kind of frustration it's not the way you say it's what it's what your words are and for example so this woman she takes a big breath husband sitting in maybe he's standing up by the sink he has he hasn't said anything he knows he's not right kids are in bed she's at the kitchen table and she takes a breath and goes so how was your day he goes all right blah blah blah blah blah blah can we talk about something this is something important to me you frame the conversation and so about her not him you guys was genius yeah yeah and then you say one she's she's not starting with you did it again it's gone he has to go to war now yeah yeah he had no choice that's right but when you say you frame the conversation of I like to talk about something that's important to me and I know that it's important to you too and my hope is that it when we get done talking you know we're gonna be able to you're gonna be able to come back tomorrow and we're gonna all have dinner the right way and you you just have that that you say what do you do with that frustration it's not the emotions it's that you need to get out it's the words because you feel like they don't understand me they're not acknowledging me they don't understand how important this is and you're not going to relay that message with your emotion when you when you come when you come at it strong like that they're not hearing your words they're hearing your tone it's physiological dead body's responding before they've even thought of you you got it so and most of the time we're I mean we're horrible predictors of what our message sounds like and looks like and feels yeah yeah you could say why are you yelling me I'm not yelling at you right right yeah but I'm going I'm looking for ways that you're hurting me yes and you can say hey you're late why are you yelling right and now yeah and oh yeah that and that's a very like classic it's you're just diverting the attention you're deflecting and all of a sudden it's uh and I know if I think maybe I've done something on this before it's like well I'm sorry that I'm such a horrible person person yeah and that's like it's so gross it's so manipulative but it happens all the time well I'm sorry I'm just trying to be a good husband I'm sorry that I have to work so much and it's just straight manipulation yeah is what that is and the the way to back up is how so if somebody were to come in and say like some I'm just trying to think I'm thinking of a particular co-worker who would look at me go sorry I'm just so dumb and I don't know everything that's just it's just such a passive weak move and I have an Impulse to yeah be like no you know what man but it's backing out and me saying that's that's that's some good on his life not mine oh that's that's a perfect way to say it so whenever they put out that kind of apology it's not an apology it's it's um it's a bunch of slathering of sun lotion on their guilt and they're just trying to cover it up because your son is beaming right right so they're trying to protect 50 SPF because they know that you could be coming in hot and they're wanting to deflect you anything else because once you say that sorry that I'm such a Negative quality self-deprecating whatever they're hoping that you take the bait and go you're not terrible oh you always think I'm terrible I mean you always and then like remember that one time and boom is gone yeah like that you've lost you've lost the moment but instead if you're able to say I don't need you to apologize for how you're you're feeling but you can't apologize for coming in late you know the the ability to to shift that because you're caught one you're calling it out second of all you're still maintaining control it got you the third thing that is a gift and this is doesn't feel like a gift in the moment but for especially for people in professional relationships or romantic relationships you're actually giving me a road map and we expect people especially when we're mad to read our minds and to know exactly what they did and why they did it and how you can make me feel better because it's your job right yeah by saying you don't apologize for how you feel right I do need to apologize because you were late yep I just gave you a laser path right and you can choose to follow it or not but I have to have enough control over my emotions to know what the actual issue is here and what I'm going for here and is it to win is it to crush you is it to catch you yeah or is it to have dinner as a family around this table that's my long-term goal here right oh yeah you just give somebody a path yeah but man you got that takes a lot of humility to take that path but it's just not easy I think it's a gift it well yeah it is not it's not easy and even for somebody who practices it it's it's still it's it's not it's not easy because you you want that immediate you know just guttural reaction to yell to fight to get after it never ends well I mean it just doesn't because what happens let's here we go I like this so you you you and I get an argument we're I mean we're after it we're saying terrible things to each other I'm my face looks mad I'm bowed up you're bowed up or husband or wife you're saying horrible things bring the stuff up in the past what happens there's a there's a break where everybody says I'm out of here different room whatever what happens when you come back your Tone's a little softer you're slower with your words you had I didn't mean what I said there I I was just I was frustrated with when you know our our son did x y z and it just makes me feel like a failure that I I couldn't do I can't get him to and and all of a sudden you realize that what they were initially mad about was nothing even close to what y'all were yelling about but I mean if you can just do that at the beginning at the beginning that's right yeah I always tell folks don't if you can now as an attorney you're getting paid to enter into an octagon together right yeah in a marriage I always tell like don't have that fight right now when you're mad that's not the time to dissect what just happened same thing with an email or a text yeah just don't time has a funny way of just clarifying yeah and it's not dissolving it yeah like if I hold off on a text or an email I said maybe I'll get an email that's snarky from an opposing counsel oh I have a response I'll type that out here then all right delete delete and then within a day I hadn't I don't need to say that what I wish everybody like could really chew on is that there's so much power in that ability to be able to know your own strength inside of you that I nobody can make me say anything that I don't want to say and I have the ability to not react if I if I so choose because what they said I put in the trash Oh you wanted me to put that on my plate that's funny no it's the dog's eating them probably the number one lesson I took away from working with attorneys for all those years was that phrase there's power in the pause and the person who speaks last loses and it was this like I don't have to say anything right now I had never heard it I love you you say it better like oh was that for me because yeah is that supposed to hurt yeah yeah yeah like oh I'm sorry like oh is that your best uh my bad right um but there's something so powerful about I'm not gonna say anything yeah oh yeah I'm just gonna let it hang yeah it's a and once you get the hang of it it changes everything oh man it's it's it is a game changer in your life it really is and you know this when somebody put something out there well I had to do this and this and this and your first word I love how you say that my first word is breath yeah just takes about 60 seconds before they start going well I mean yeah and then they'll you see that Liars they'll reverse their their they'll reverse the car all the way down back the driveway oh yeah all the way up that's exactly right like people who who say something that some would have a lie I want you to believe something that's not true that it's you just imagine them coming in hot in the house they Park up to the garage and then you don't respond and the way and go away it is he's not buying it I'm gonna actually put this in Reverse yeah yeah because I can't take that silence yeah they can't take that side I learned um doing student conduct all those years it became important for me to when I would call a student in and say hey I just got this report that you should actually assaulted somebody are you you're selling drugs or whatever yeah I knew that by walking in my office every fight or flight mechanism that human had was set and so I used to always walk them through everything and then I would always end it with you got 24 hours from this point you had 24 hours to come back and say Here's what actually happened here's my role in it and I'm going to count it as though it happened here because my end goal was I was trying to teach students how to become functional adults yeah and had a field fight or flight and still tell the truth anyway how to feel like ah yeah yeah and then hang in there in the moment yeah and I think if you have that same kind of Grace with your spouse like the goal here is not to win arguments the goal is to have a great life to make a great marriage and to raise great kids and if we can always keep that thing in motion then it might be we're gonna Circle back up tomorrow right I feel often in in spouse relationships and and I see this on the legal side it's not that they just want to call it out they want you to they want you to know that you're bad they want you to know that you're not a good husband so it's like they it's like they want you to download I think you're bad and I need you to know it you don't feel it yeah and they and nothing good comes comes out of that I mean I am if you take the position of I'm never going to be the first to throw the first stone because when the Microsoft microscope you know turns on you yeah it's you want that same you get real quiet yeah that's right that's right but there's something even about if you if I'm sitting with a couple and they've you know you got a Serial cheater just infidelity infidelity you're not making me leave I'm choosing based on my values that I'm not going to be with somebody who cheats on me I am taking full ownership but I'm ending this marriage that's right right you didn't make me do anything yeah and the more I can sit in that yeah I'm standing up just explaining right right you just sit up taller right yeah um there's just strength and power in oh you you can't make me do anything but then you also have to choose I chose to scream at that guy or I chose to try to make her feel really bad yeah which is just weakness and cowardice to be honest with you I wish it was a different language for it that's kind of weird no no that's exactly what it is it's a it's a reflection of your your lack of confidence because most of the time when we do have that that yelling reaction we do say something that's snippy if you're really honest with yourself you regret it every time yeah and it's not too long that you you regret and go why did I say that and what you're going to do you apologize and so often especially manipulators kind of these people that have very strong narcissistic traits are masterful at getting you to make these kind of comments so that then you are the one who is now the offender you're the bad guy you're the bad guy yeah I'm the one who came in late through the door but you're the one who can't appreciate this who always nags about this and now all of a sudden you find yourself the one apologizing and also it depends like how you say it well I need I I didn't like how you said it you need to apologize for the way you said your tone yeah your tone which is also very true but the the people who are masterful at it with somebody who's not equipped for it they'll they'll they'll run that song a million times a day long yeah all right all right so I want to take a a hard left turn here okay wonderful from like tactics and tools to just to you guys have known each other for a long time now it was a decade now as well and kind of the reality you have reached a level of personal success you own your own firm you've got a team of attorneys that work for you you've got a team of staff that work with you and you guys have an extraordinary reputation for what you do right you come from a long line of attorneys and there's kind of this this sense that this is what Jefferson's going to do right it's just in the air right yeah so you've reached level X financial success you reach level X professional success you reach level X with what I think is one of the most important credentials on planet Earth which which isn't a Juris doctorate a JD a law degree from a reputable American University and then you go out in your car and you start making Instagram videos yeah and it goes from like 200 to 2000 to 5 000 to a couple of million right it goes from dude some lawyers are passing this around to oh my gosh this celebrity to this celebrity to The Rock gets in touch right right and suddenly there's this moment when your body goes I've been warning you Jefferson for a long time and we out yeah you're right there yeah so walk us through there walk us through what happened uh yeah I was telling you at this at dinner you know I I haven't I've never shared this with my my audience before my followers I I never expected any of this John like ever ever and that was never the goal just a guy making videos in his car and when the account started growing it's very easy just to say this that's just pixels on your phone it's not real it's not a real number and because they're not there and as it grew it still just felt fake but when my account started to grow I would tell like I would tell my wife and she'd go that that's great okay so are you able to pick up daughter at swimming lessons right and and then okay we need to make sure we have this dentist appointment like that's that's real world that's here that's that's right in front of me yes they don't see that yeah but as it started to grow I remember working I was I put up my own little website it's still my own website that I just my Cracker Jack little box that I had because I was like I need to have something out and I I looked at my phone and it went over a million and I just thought like huh that's funny like you know what I mean and then next notification I got it said like the rock whatever I remember looking at my phone and just like immediately just putting it down like I didn't either Dwayne Johnson The Rock yeah yeah like Yeah The Rock yeah I just I looked at it and then immediately just like put it down like that didn't happen like you just can't do that so anyway I was I was working on it and like I told you it was it was at 12 30 at night I'm like a night owl I'm not not great at that and I felt like somebody just wafted a piece of like paper in front of my face like a cold just flash and I said out loud in my kitchen by myself I said what was that like I just remember looking around going what was that and all of a sudden I felt good good like like everything my chest got tight yeah everything just kind of hit all at once and my body was telling me something something ain't right so it turned out I had my first panic attack yeah that was terrible thought I was dying you are a world-class attorney yes whose reputation has been forged on correct I'm unravelable you got it I this this whole row of Suits down here who all make seven figures a year yeah come guns and blazing and the other side of that table is just freaking Jefferson smiling at him right right okay right right that's that's who you are well I've had it it was like me at the council table five of them jury like I'm like let's go exactly you just have that kind of that sense but and to be in your presence just for it's like being in the presence of a walking Xanax it's just like I come in hot you know that like I'm like oh hey everybody and it's like yeah so it's it's awesome and so for your body to be like hey man you can't trick me I'll tell you this is how Wild that was I've always been one my whole life it's it's very family driven too for reasons you and I know but anxiety that's for people who don't have their life together you're right that's what I always thought it was I'm talking I'm talking this happened this year right this year yeah like in February and when they told me I was so convinced I was having I was gonna die I was like any time lord any time lord like when something's like come on can you stop this it was a horrible feeling because you had been several days in a row right yeah I had my first one and when they told me that it was not a heart attack oh yeah I thought I was dying I was I was sure of it and when they said this is how dumb I was I was so sure that I didn't have anxiety or panic attacks weren't a thing I was like I don't have panic attacks that's how strongly convicted I was that it was a heart attack yeah because in my head I was like I don't have that sure enough my body said oh yeah you do you're right right oh yeah you do and I was so wrong and uh because of that I go to therapy every week and I'm a I mean I've gone to therapy in the past but now my body's like no you you actually have some stuff on your brain that you're not you're not telling people and it's it's such a healthy thing and that I'm it would never be embarrassed to share but after I had my first pink Tech I had one for like a week and a half every day but as that happened I got better and better with them gotcha how is that um got a very similar situation yeah like where I was Johnny Rockstar and suddenly my body says hey I've been trying to get your attention for a long time and you're clearly not here and so I'm we're shutting the system down that's a great way to put it that's exactly like you can't well I put like when I saw that The Rock the followers and I put that down in my head I was like that doesn't bother me and then my body was like it's the room yeah my body's like the hell it does you know what I mean yeah like all of a sudden it was just like I don't they have way too many eyes on what I'm doing like for me to be a muscle hey what's up Dr John deloney here check it out my new book building a non-anxious life is now available for pre-order here's the great news anxiety is not the enemy we've been led to believe I know this because I've walked alongside countless folks over the last two decades and I've struggled with this too if you create a life of intentionally living out the six daily choices I've outlined in this book you're gonna be able to better respond to whatever life throws at you you're going to learn the choices you can make day by day to create a more peaceful joyful less chronically stressed non-anxious life plus when you pre-order my book I want to give you something to help you today that's why you'll instantly get my newest talk smoke fire and freedom that I gave to several thousand folks a few months ago where I break down the misunderstandings and myths we believe about anxiety how to reclaim your freedom and how to build a non-anxious life so pre-order building a non-in life today for just 20 bucks at John deloney.com you and I live um not a traditional life right I don't know right not now there you go but I would say before this I was good in my professional world yeah you're great in your professional world right good what we did and then this other thing happens and there's a perception that um if you are a mom who's a counselor in a local community and you work 60 hours a week and you've got two kids and you're exhausted and your husband didn't help that much but he's trying and you're just making it right and you are a plumber and you got four plumbers that work for you and you have a small little business and you've got two kids who want little league and you're trying to coach too right yeah there's this at life we're running right yeah the illusion is if I can just get here if I if this would just happen if I could get this dollar amount yeah the whole thing is ah yeah right then I can finally fill in the blank yeah and I've come to wrestle with over the last few years especially that if then thing is a it's a myth I knew that psychologically if you'd come to see me like as a client or just like yeah like I would have told you that like that's not true but I believed it it's so funny you mentioned that like I'm like maybe this was maybe three weeks ago talking with my wife and she's we're at the kitchen an island and she puts her hands down and goes I just I'm ready for life to just to slow down I'm just I'm ready for this to happen this to happen and these things you know in life is going to slow down and I looked at her and I said this is life I said this is it I said this feeling this this this is what it is it's never going to slow down there's always going to be something like you just need to enjoy this is exactly what I told her you just need to enjoy the present of where we are at any time because there is no nothing to chase I mean there's no there's not going to be a well as soon as we get over this hill we're gonna Coast yeah if you've got kids if you got you know for your family it's it's constant yeah it's on it's on and it's on from the beginning to to the end but yeah I was like this is it yeah that's what I told her I was like this is it there's no there's no we get here and it's going to slow down well and when you see that okay here's the Calendar's got some space in it that's when your kid breaks their arm if that's when the teacher calls and says your kid just said called somebody a such and such and you're like my kid right it doesn't stop yeah that one weekend that you're like oh we have it free and that's when somebody in your family gets sick that's right yeah and or your buddy calls and is like hey I need a lawyer right now right okay here we go right yeah some or something uh you have a like we had a major storm power goes out for like three days oh okay I guess we won't be going anywhere because y'all's Texas power grids yeah duct tape yeah string yeah yeah and nwd um so how has even in a limited time going and sitting across from somebody a mental health professional and saying I'm not all right and beyond that not just the act of going to counseling but for a guy that had all the answers yeah and not only had all the answers but people hire you for your answers right and you are a very particular type of assassin to be able to sit in that with that skill set and go that doesn't serve me here right I need help here yes how has that impacted you being a husband how's that impacted you being a dad because I would say arguably those are not arguably those are the most important roles the head of lawyer ahead of yeah Tick Tock sensation but I know that what it has taught me is my mind can tell me pretty much anything that I want to know and what I want to say my mind is like it's it's it's very surgical in the way it will help me control my reactions and responses but it is a terrible doctor of diagnosing what's going on in my body and I've always been the type when and you know this when you're in high conflict situations your mind is what matters like your mind is what keeps you sharp I have to be listening to every word that they say but my body my mind's gonna get out of here just hey no no no yeah you're you're not relevant right now I need your mind and it's as Vandercook says it's keeping the score right oh yeah yeah yeah every day and that's what shut down and so having these like deep dives into where that's coming from and where I found that was and I don't mind sharing it was a just a sense of being alone and I say that because at the time you and I weren't connected um and nobody in my world could like relate to what was happening in that space at the same time it's I'm very just it's a it's a privilege to even use the applications they could inflict if Instagram wanted to they could ban me and kick me off tomorrow I have no free speech right right there it's just they're like thanks for using our app you know what I mean like making us a bunch of AD money yeah yeah that's it and the the continuous tense that I that I live in you I could tell myself you're good no you're fine just and I realized I was not giving myself a lot of that attention and permission as therapists like to say give us a lot of permission I remember being like permission or what yeah like I didn't like that where I was like can we not use that word it turns out I was just that was just Pride you know you were deposing yourself yeah yeah yeah so she was she was uh been great at when so you realize you you do have a mind you do have a body and your body is what is suffering um and you're not giving attention to that and that's been that's been great and and since then I've been it's made me a better father to your question it's maybe a better husband and that I'm taking better care of my selfie actually you know what you should probably go to bed yeah how much of that is the answer so many times that you know what calling a friend and going to bed yeah yeah how about you you're working out those three sleep yeah you know what I mean because you probably need that yeah and that's and that's my evenings it's either I need to have a conversation with my wife to check in rather than us just both going to bed I need to go to sleep or I need to go work out and you know work out that anxiety yeah it's not like there's a Blog that is part of our education yes and wasn't like somebody just said hey read this book you're going to have a a bad crisis here in a little bit you did have if I remember correctly an extraordinary dean of students that tried to tell you some of this stuff but yeah he was a real pain but God's the worst yeah yeah at that time we weren't ready enough I mean I wasn't either man yeah well I mean even even as a student like so many times of like man if I went back to that class I'd learned so much it was I think in different parts of her life were just not ready yeah to absorb you know we're not a sponge yet but or or there's soil and those seeds get planted and it just takes the right environment for them to grow yeah so it all grow a lot quicker yeah yeah maybe they're just uh it takes them a long time to produce anything that's right I can't tell you I told you to dinner last night when I saw the success you're having like my heart exploded in like uh I've had the privilege of knowing that I can just makes my heart so full so man and more importantly you're not just like getting famous you're actually helping people you're handing people tools like oh man and I think most of us think our marriages our workplace our relationship with our kids needs this Grand sweeping thing yeah it usually doesn't usually it needs I'm just gonna start doing this a little bit different I'm gonna start doing this a little bit differently I'm gonna practice I feel myself about to say something yeah first word is going to breathe right I'm gonna practice that yes and then you wake up two years later and somebody says something to just and your default setting is a smile right and it's a total that's when you go oh man yeah yeah I'm changing right yeah I'm growing I'm changing I got a comment not too long ago and I love this one it's a it was a wife she was saying hey I've been following your stuff for a while and I was in an argument with my husband it was very stubborn hardheaded and we was knocked down drag out and she said at the end I took a breath and followed what you said and I said I can do better hmm and she said without a beat he said I can do better too she said never in any of our like 20 years of marriage has this man admitted anything like that wow and it's just like like what you said this was little tweaks that's it it's usually the less words the more impact that's right yeah yeah that's awesome brother you're awesome man congratulations thank you all right thank you all so much for joining me and my good friend Jefferson Fisher please um go to Instagram and follow him after you follow him follow me too if you're not already and check out some of his videos on how to communicate more clearly how to communicate better how to communicate with your friends and family I can assure you I'm trying to take some of those lessons into practice um because as you may have noticed on this show I'm not always the clearest communicator but thank you all for joining us um if you like interviews on the show let us know reach out to Kelly reach out to Jenna um go to John deloney.com ask and just put interview at the Top If you like hearing more if you want to hear more interviews great if you don't if you'd rather just hear from callers let us know that stuff okay um and like always I love you guys I'm so so grateful for you thanks for being with us stay in school don't do drugs be nice be nice see you later [Music]