Excited to welcome Oklahoma head coach Jenny Baranchek to the Basketball Podcast. The 11-year head coach spent nine seasons at Drake before starting her Oklahoma tenure in 2021-22. In Jenny's first year at Oklahoma, she led one of the greatest turnarounds in the country, guiding the Sooners to a 25-9 record and into the second round of the NCAA Tournament.
The 13-win improvement from the season before Jenny's arrival was the second largest turnaround in program history. She was named an A. Smith National Coach of the Year semifinalist for her efforts.
Through two seasons, Jenny's teams have earned the two NCAA tournament appearances, the most recent of which ended in the second round. Prior to Oklahoma, Jenny won back-to-back MVC Coach of the Year awards after her team's historic 2016-17-2017-18 campaigns, leading Drake to an 18-0 regular season conference record both years and winning both MVC tournaments. She left Drake with 192-96 record that includes six consecutive 20-win seasons and three appearances in the NCAA tournament.
Jenny, welcome to the Basketball Podcast. You know what? Thank you. And yeah, that was easy to say.
It's a lot easier than my last name, isn't it? Your last name's great too, and we'll get it all right. And it's wonderful to have you here.
I've followed you for a long time, know about your success at many places. Let's start with a real simple, long answer question. And that's what's gone into your success at so many different places. Honestly, you get lucky with the people that you're with and around. I think anywhere, obviously the players, right?
Everybody goes to the players and you have to have good players. You can't have good success. But there's so much more to it.
And you know that. And it's coaches that coach with you. It's people that you get to work for and with. It's administrators.
and how supportive they are in the program. And, and then honestly, it's really building up that fan base too. And you've got to have those people that believe in you that are kind of in it, but they're not really in it with you every single day, but they're in it with you in those really high pressure moments.
And so it's a combination of a lot of different people. It's always about the people and it's fun to come from different angles. So in talking to people around your program and some of your opposing coaches that I know, I mean, two things stood out.
One is that you engage the fan base. So I want to dive a little bit deeper into that because that's pretty cool that people recognize that from the outside looking in. And then the second thing is your offense.
And in watching so many of your clips and watching some of the things that you've shared, I mean, it just seems like a fun offense to play in as well. So maybe let's start with the fan base because I know coaches all everywhere. That's a big, important thing. So what are some strategies that we can do to engage our fan base? I think some of the things that we want to make sure is that our fans feel a significant part of what we're doing.
It's not just, hey, come watch us play. We need you to, you know, we need you to be there. We need butts in seats. It's not just about that. It's about really having an active participation in what you're doing.
And you want to be the best for them you can possibly be. And I think that's where, as long as we as a program, as whether it's players, again, coaches, doesn't matter. We need to serve our community.
And so when we, when we engage, when we fully engage in that community and want to be the best for the community we can possibly be, then people tend to really get involved in there in it because you can't convince me that they are not part of the outcome of some of those games. You know, when you can have an incredible crowd that's in it and engaged and believes, it's amazing what can happen. And I think just some of the strategies that we try to do, we try to engage a lot in the young fan, because you want these young boys and girls to look at these women and watch them play and say, you know what, I want to be a Sooner someday.
That's what I want to do. That's my dream. And in order to do that, they have to know the players.
They have to know the people that they're cheering on, and they have to see them, and they have to see people that looks like them. You know, and it's not just about the little girls. You know, I have a son, too. And he looks at these women and, you know, he he nicknames them.
Right. I mean, one of the players on our team, he calls the bucket, you know, and I'd like if she made a few more buckets, you know. But it's but it's fun to be able to watch them interact. And we do the autographs after games. You know, you do the community service.
We do what we call a three minute drill after every game. We go from the stands and we thank people for coming. And.
Obviously, COVID got in the way of some of those kinds of things, but we're kind of getting back. We have different events throughout the year that the fans really get to know. these, these amazing women.
And when they get to know them as people, and then they get to watch them play, it's, you know, it's your, it's your cheering on your family. I mean, that's, that's the reality of it. And, and we're in it together.
It's not, hey, come do this for us. It's, hey, let's do this together. Let's really build this thing. Yeah, it's wonderful to watch. And another word that, you know, you shared with me, but I heard from some of your assistants as well as love.
And that seems to be it. big cornerstone of your program in terms of that. So can you talk a little bit about how love impacts your program?
Well, love is the strongest human emotion that we have. And, you know, I've always looked at it and in sport, we constantly talk about discipline and hard work and, you know, those that's true. That's a huge part of it. You know, I mean, I'm a pretty blue collar, roll up your sleeves, dive in it kind of person.
Um, but what keeps you. going every day is that love that you have for the people around you and for the game. And, and that's, you know, you, you, you talk about the highest level, you know, whether it's the Navy SEALs, you don't go to war because you hate something you go because you love something so much.
And I think as a mom, you understand that too, of, you know, one, your love actually can multiply. There's not a cap on it. And I think that's also where. I can look at these women and you love each and every one of them. And that doesn't mean that you're always nice.
And it doesn't always mean that we're always smiling and everything's fun all the time. But you find that love and that passion in your work, in your daily process, in that, you know, even when it gets hard, if you really love something, you keep going. Well, I love that.
And I love this part of the offense that everyone. has the green light. To me, there's so many coaches, and I'm not saying they're wrong, but so many coaches that approach offense at the highest level as restricting.
We're going to go to specific people, specific matchups, and this is your role. And to me, your offense seems very inclusive. And I love that.
Well, it is. And it's, it's really, it's one that in those pressure moments, the true leadership rises anyway. Right. And, and you get the ball. in the hands of who we need to get the ball in the hands of.
And that's not always just the coach's decision, right? So when everybody takes ownership of that, that's going to happen. That's always the number one question you get is, Oh, do you have the wrong people shooting at the wrong time?
And the answer is sometimes, yeah, that's going to happen. But I also feel like that's also part of the process of the season is, is early on, because if you do get restricted, you can kind of get bitter. And, you know, we talk about love being a really strong emotion. So it's bitterness and that you don't want in your, in your locker room either. And so everybody has a sense of versatility.
We don't want a one-hit wonder. We don't want somebody that has one skill set. We want somebody that has multiple skill sets, but also has a lot of confidence in what they're really good at.
So maybe our best three-point shooter is really good at that, but she might not post up. But then she needs to have a lot of confidence in that person that's posting up. And that person that's really posting up might be able to shoot a three. but that might not be their main strength.
And so then they all of a sudden don't just find value in what it is that they bring. They also find that value in the people around them as well. And so then they start to tend to play to each other's strengths. So when everybody has that opportunity, and also it's hard to guard, you know, it's hard to game plan when all five people on the floor have the green light, they're all scoring threats.
And even though their skill sets might be different. They can play to each other's strengths. And when you get a team playing to each other's strengths and they value their own and they value each other's, it's really amazing what can happen. It's awesome. And a few things stand out I want to connect with here.
One is you talked about shot selection a little bit there. But the players know, and I imagine throughout your career in using this, the system probably never failed to have the best players shoot the most shots, did it? You're right. You're right. But then you also have to have a lot of good players.
you know, cause you don't want, well, you don't want to, you don't want the pressure to be on one person or even two people. I mean, we know in basketball, you constantly hear that term, the big three, you have to have three people that are very consistent in order to win. You just, you just do those, those years that you have two players and then it's you're rotating third.
No, you've got to have three people that are very, very consistent. And then you want five people and double figures in every game, or at least to have, have the potential to. And so I think when you have that, you again, you play to each other's strengths.
Not everybody is going to be built with the capacity to be able to come in and have to bring it every single day because those players. that are at the top, right? There's a different level there. You know, not everybody can be Batman, right?
Like that's just a reality of, of our sport. But I think when you, again, aren't restricted, I like that word, like you're not restricted. Um, but when you feel like, okay, I have pressure on me to be able to hit an open shot too, right? Then those best players, they're going to pass you the ball because if they can have one-on-one coverage, then you know what? That's the best case scenario.
When there's constant double teams all the time, that's hard on everybody. And so you've really got to be able to share that ball. But you're right. You're still going to be able to go to players that the ball needs to be in their hands. It's going to find them.
And the best part is when it's not the coaches telling them to find them. It's your team finding them. I was going to say that, too. And the other part about it is your best players know that you trust the other players as well.
And that's got to help build that. So Batman knows that you trust Robin. And that's got to help the whole process.
The other thing is I share this a lot with youth level coaches, especially. And I'm curious your thoughts on it. But I find this type of philosophy really drives player development.
Because players see the opportunity to be able to become Robin or to become Batman in their time. Well, and they're not in a box. Batman is not a box. You know, there's not. You know, you look at the best players in the world, whether they're the highest level of, you know, WNBA or you're looking at the NBA and you look at those players and they don't do one thing.
There's no box. There's no box. And they also make the people around them better.
So their confidence doesn't just come from the number of shot attempts they get. Their confidence just doesn't come from one thing that they do. It's because they do multiple things while they play on both sides of the ball.
You know, they value everything. And so then all of a sudden the people around them do too. And so you're right.
It also promotes major team chemistry when you have that. And I mean, I love, I love the idea of player development, right? Because sometimes we're like, I have all these things I got to work on.
Right. And so all of a sudden we're working on all these moves, but maybe we haven't really worked on finishing. Right. But being versatile, it's about falling in love with those details and it gets boring.
It gets really boring. Like you got to be really good at making layups. We got to be really good at making layups.
And that, that's not easy to work on. That's not easy to go into a gym. It's fun to go spot shoot threes. Everybody can go spot shoot threes, right? Everybody wants to do that.
But how many of us are doing Mike in every day? And how many of us are teaching Mike in, you know, how much, how much of our, how many of us are really teaching? Hey, be really good dribbling with your dominant hand.
And then now work on your other hand. And then when you're doing my kid, are we working with both hands? You know, those are the kinds of things.
And, you know, I'm also really biased because I'm looking at, you know, my oldest is 11 and we have three young, we have three kids. And so I'm looking at that player development, you know, heaven forbid that I know how to do anything right to coach them. You know, I'm still a mom in their eyes. But those little details, you know, we kind of forget sometimes and we start pressing or we start zoning and we start. you know doing all these things but teaching basic fundamentals of defense is that just as key as making a layup or being able to get good shooting form at a young age especially well i can see in our future having a conversation my daughters are 10 and 12 and uh you know isn't amazing how little you know it's amazing well and to be truthful my philosophy uh without knowing much about me maybe in terms of my philosophy my philosophy is very ecological in this approach And a lot of it comes from this philosophy of creativity comes from permission and freedom.
If I give them some permission and freedom to, again, not tell them exactly what to do, but to put them in an environment where they can problem solve and figure it out on their own, they're more likely to become creative and they're more likely to become motivated because they see the point in what you have already said, the point in getting better at your weak and strong hand or your mic and or whatever it may be, because you see that you get to apply it someday. Rather than just being a rebounder, a screener, or just stand here or do this. No, freedom. No, exactly. And I love that.
I love the creativity piece because I think we stifle that sometimes in, you know, when we get into our data analytics, for example, and it's okay, this percentage shot. And there's a place for that. Like, do not get me wrong. I'm not knocking that because we utilize that too.
But I think there's times where. you know and especially in like you're talking that youth development where it's oh you're tall you're a post right you're small you're a point guard and I think there's so much in their development that then we then we miss out on um as they as they get older and you know that's that's the best part of the game is the creativity and the innate intuitive play I mean we try to do that every day in practice we try to have five minutes where they're just intuitive play and it's not structured it's not a set and we don't run a ton of sets anyway we're more about spacing and making your reads but I think that is where sometimes we say and we and we label people oh they don't have a high basketball IQ you Do they, is that true? Are we allowing them to understand the spacing and to be able to make the reads? Because I think everybody, everybody has it.
If you love the game and you watch the game and you're part of the game and you know, and you just play, you kind of have it. You kind of know sometimes when you need to cut and you kind of know sometimes, but I think sometimes, and trust me, this is a me too statement. This is not a judgment statement.
You want them a certain way and you want them to. think this way and be able to see this. And of course you're supposed to help here, but I always love watching that as well.
And being able to see just their intuitive play. And even when they're at a young age, you know, they, they can learn those things. They can learn those concepts.
Um, and, and we can really instill it. And I feel like again, and I know I'm going off kind of on a tangent here, but I also feel like that's where you fall in love with the game. is when you can feel like you are part of the game and you, and it's not that you're right or that you're wrong.
I love that. And I love your connection there to basketball IQ. I just, reason a lot of players don't have a basketball IQ is because practice and games are a dance recital where they're just doing exactly what you've told them to do.
And if they don't do exactly what you told them to do, then you coach them hard and that's not going to help them develop a basketball IQ. So I love this coach at. At the foundation here, we'll get into some of the details of your offense, but maybe let's start with where did this unique offensive approach that's been so successful for you, where did this come from?
Well, over the years, we've kind of put some things together that we've liked. And selfishly, I, you know, and I was kind of, as a player a long time ago, I was kind of that tweener, right? There was never a position.
And so I liked. I liked the versatility that that brings. And I love being able to make reads.
I got to do that when I was, you know, coming up. And so that's how, how you want to coach the game is to allow them some of that freedom. I love, you know, watching a point guard just take over a game in terms of not just scoring, not just, you know, some games you have a lot of points, some games.
You don't. It depends on what the team needs, when the team needs it, and to be able to watch them navigate through that. I love everybody should post up, in my opinion, because everyone should know how to post up.
You know, everyone should know how to post up. Everyone should know how to pass it to a post. Everyone should be able to shoot the ball and we need to continue to be able to teach that. There's different techniques. I understand that.
But everything's also unique to yourself. So I wanted to be able to continue to create. an environment that is for everybody, everybody that wants to do multiple things, but still wants to play team.
And so you can showcase your different skill sets. And every time there's a substitution, it looks different and feels different. And I love that. I love variety.
I love creativity. That's one of my core values is being creative. and thinking outside the box, and giving them the keys, and giving them the freedom to be able to make those reads, and make those decisions, and try not to call it good, or bad, or right, or wrong, but really kind of navigating through it.
There's still a discipline in it. In fact, there's more accountability, because the more freedom that you give them, the more autonomy you give them, the more that you, that green light that you give them, guess who has to own it, because I can't do it for you. I can't make that decision that you're going to get in the gym and you're going to work. I can't get in the, I can't get in the gym.
I can't make a shot for you. I can't tell you, oh, it's okay. If you're not making shots, like you get to work through that. You get to fall on your face, you get up, you know, sometimes you crawl sideways, but you're always going forward. And I think, um, and then you have a team that also can find that confidence and that strength in them.
And then all of a sudden, when you're more confident, you believe in the people around you a heck of a lot more. And And that comes out on the floor. And so that's what I like.
I like the up-tempo style. It gives more people a chance to be able to score, to be honest. It gives, it's fun to play. It's fun for the fans.
It's fun to watch. I like the, you know, we call it motion. It's not just your typical motion, but I like that. because then it teaches more concepts and spacing.
And then they're making those reads and then they communicate and they problem solve. I love that. I love that.
I love that we can take basketball, especially when they're 18 to 22 or 23, however old they are now. You know, I love when you can take that concept and you can problem solve and you can make decisions because that stuff you go on in life and you can as well. Fun to watch and successful.
So we'll give coaches a little bit of the idea. Second nationally in scoring. I think it was tied second nationally in assists and then third in pace of play. All of those statistics, are those conscious on your part in terms of we want to be in the top 10 in these categories?
Well, I don't know if it's necessarily that's the goal that we want. However, we do want to be up-tempo. And I never set out to say, OK, here, we want to make sure that we're ranked nationally in this and we're this.
But through that process, right, that is a byproduct. It's the same as winning. You know, it's, it's not, you want to win every game you play.
And obviously we haven't done that. But that's, that's part of it, but I don't want to just be chasing that. I want them to really understand how to do that.
And it's part of the process and it's part of playing together and it's yeah. And you're right. It is successful.
But when you have five people on the floor at all times, and it doesn't matter because we play a lot of people too, to be able to play at that pace. So it's really good for chemistry. And I think chemistry wins games.
You know, I think a lot of times your chemistry is better than some strategy. Right. And so you've got to be able to to have that where it's yes, you're yes, they're very talented. And I know.
But winning is a byproduct. Those statistics are a byproduct of how we want to play. That's probably an easier answer. I could have just summed it up a lot easier. Oh, it's great.
I love it, coach. This is the place to go deeper and share. And it's beautiful.
Thank you. So much. And, you know, you mentioned byproduct and I'm imagining, and I haven't seen your team practice by imagine your games are a byproduct of how you practice.
Can you give us an impression of how you practice to be able to, again, build this pace, build this type of style play? Are you asking if we turn it over and practice too? Because we do.
Of course you do. You can't develop pace without doing that, right? Right. No, you're right.
You're right. Yeah. No, we want it to be. up-tempo high energy. I want it to be, I want it to be a place that's fun.
And, and again, but fun is also learning, learning to have fun is also rolling up your sleeves, diving on the floor, being competitive and playing with passion. And it's not just, Oh, it's fun. And we have a snow cone every day. Like that's not, that's not, that's not it.
Um, now there's probably a time and place for snow cones. We haven't found that yet here, but you know, some places there might be. Um, but I do feel like you want them in, you want them out, you want them running everywhere. You want them to be able to play at a certain pace.
Cause that's exactly how we want to play in a game. So everything is pretty uptempo. Uh, we don't, there's not a lot of stop.
Um, and there's not a lot of disengagement, you know, you're, you're not going to want to come here. If you don't, you know, have a great attitude every day. I mean, I, I very much consciously check myself every time I go into a practice that I'm in a really good space. even if we lost the night before, even if you're not feeling good, because there is the pressure, your bandwidth is shorter, especially as a head coach, you know, there's so many different things, but that space, when you step across those lines is always my sacred space of, you know, no matter how it's going, I'm coming in and in the best space that I can. And I've had to become really conscious of that.
Uh, you got to take care of everything else outside so that you can do that because that's the only thing that matters when you step across the lines there. And so I'm not going to treat. a game differently than I'm going to treat practice in that same, in that same way.
I love that. And you mentioned your motion. And I want you to talk about this because you mentioned it's not a typical motion, but let me just share the four things you shared with me for the motion type offense. One versatility is key to everyone has a green light, three make reads.
And then four, we want five scoring threats on the floor at all times. So in your mind, coach, what? makes this not a typical motion well part of it part of it is that is our space and you know you you hear you know and porter mosers are our men's basketball coach and so you know and he's he's a rick mageris disciple and so you think of like that kind of motion you know where you've got your four out you've got your one in so it's not that anybody can be in anybody can be out you um, this, this spacing, you know, you've got your kind of secondary actions that you flow into. Um, but the, but it's not, uh, It's more of an entry than it is anything else.
And then it's literally about spacing. So there's times where you can have two people in, you could have five people out. And so there's not, it's more about here's the play.
Here's the places on the floor in terms of like what our spacing is and less about what you're supposed to do. Now, the ball goes here. You're supposed to do this. It's less about that. It's also, it's a lot of two on two.
uh, with the ball or two on two with a plus a passer without the ball. And so there's constant movement. Um, um, and so it's actually, it's, it's very simple. It's very simple.
It's not easy. You know, you got to cut to score. You got to be able to set a screen and understand your angle, right. Of where that person's going.
You've got to be able to read each other. And then you've got to be able to play to each other's strengths, right? So if, uh, if somebody that's strength is shooting.
Right. And they're setting you a flare screen. What are you going to do?
Are you going to use that? Are you going to curl it? Are you going to slip it?
And so it's making those kinds of reads, but every read is a scoring thread. Every single one, every time, every person, you know, my husband grew up in, in Wisconsin, in green Bay. And so we were Packer fans. And so obviously Aaron Rogers in the off season and all the things, but I, I watched Brett Favre a lot.
I watched Aaron Rogers a lot. And so every person with a ball is a quarterback. That's what we want.
We want our players to think every single person that's a ball is a quarterback and everybody is running around every cutter to the basket. It's a receiver. And so that's a lot of how, how we'll teach that because a lot of times we think, oh, they're not open when they are open.
Right. So you've got to have that risk element of being able to understand if your receiver is going, you're not going to back off your route. You're not going to half cut a back cut.
You're either going or you're not going. And then part of it is also being able to communicate. And so we talk so much about communication in basketball, but most of the time we're referring to defense.
Most of the time we're saying, okay, who's in the hole? Who's here? What's next?
You've got your gap. You're denying whatever your philosophies are. But for us, communication's on both sides of the ball.
If you don't say what you're doing, then you're going to hurt your teammate. If you're not going to cut as hard as you can, if you're just going to. cut to cut, that takes away a layup from us. So everybody that cuts has to cut to score.
Everybody that screens, you've got to communicate what those reads are through that screen so that we're not going to the same spot because that does happen. I love that example because I was going to say, as you were saying that, the part that I think we misunderstand about basketball and communication is a lot of communication in basketball is nonverbal. It's nonverbal. It's your actions that communicate.
And that's the motion offense concept that you're sharing, right? Well, it's your eye contact, right? It's your touching.
It's if someone's going to set a screen, you can shove your screener and tell them where to go, right? I mean, there's times where it's if you're going to curl, how tight's your curl? Like you can't let your defense in there.
And there's a lot of talking and touching. And those are the two things that you constantly have to do, again, on both sides of the ball. The more that you're connected with your team nonverbally.
And whether that's through your eye contact or through touch, that's what separates really good teams from great teams is that ability to just innately connect through your talking, but also through your touching your eye contact. I love that. And I share this. I've shared this with a few college coaching clients that I work with in the sense that to get them to understand. And I don't mean this as divergently as it sounds, but communication is overrated to a certain extent because before you even.
execute a skill, you perceive, you decide, and then you execute. So in a sense, what's more important than actually saying it is doing it. And that type of process that goes with it, the decision actually shows you that you communicated in this beautiful nonverbal way.
And I see that when I watch your offense, players do seem to understand each other, especially later in the year when I was watching some of the games on the way to the NCAA tournament. Uh, so dive into that a little bit for us in terms of. You mentioned already variable spacing. Is that matchup specific or is it based on your personnel or is it just the flow of the game and where they end up?
Both. Both the last two. So it's not necessarily I mean, I guess it can be matchup, but it's also because we face a lot of switching, right?
So a lot of defenses are going to switch on us. And so then it becomes a little bit more matchup specific, but not necessarily prior to the game and saying, okay, here, you know, there's going to be some games where we'll say, okay, look at these certain actions. Right.
But also. You also have to innately feel it. You know, there's a time and place where you're going to pop and you're going to have that shot. And if you're really comfortable in that space, then you need to do that.
But a lot of times, you know, the pass isn't great. Something happens. So you can turn it to a dribble handoff, you know, things like that.
You want them to be able to make those reads. The spacing, anybody can be in any of the spots, right? So we have about eight spots on the floor. um, that anybody can go to at any point and then you play off each other. So some of it, you know, sometimes on the block, for example, that's one of our spots, it could be a post and you're going to say, okay, that person's probably going to look to score out of that.
Right. Or maybe have a two player game with, with their, with their guard that's on the wing. Right. But sometimes that could be a point guard.
Who's not somebody that really wants to post up. It's a really good passer. they can get their self into that spacing.
And now their angle of passing is different, right? But we also know, okay, when you do enter that ball into that space, if it's my point guard, what's going to happen? Somebody's got to cut to the basket for her, right?
And then everyone else can read and she knows the different spots she needs to look at. If it's our post that's in there, don't cut on top of her, she's trying to score. So part of it is us not just understanding what it is that you bring, but also what... the other people around you bring. So that's the stuff that takes a little bit of time.
And inevitably we stand when a point guards in there. Right. And inevitably we cut right on top of somebody making a post. That's stuff's going to happen.
It's now, how are you going to respond and how are you going to adjust? Right. So as you start to see that, even if you recognize it, now, what do you need to do?
You can either stop, you got to move, you got to, you know, then cut if you're the point guards in there. So it's things like that. that you're trying to constantly do. So in practice, we do a lot of five on five.
We also do a lot of three on three. And I love the concept of three on three, especially at a young age. I think, I think the game of three on three is so fun because it just forces you to have pace and it forces you to communicate.
It forces you to match up because yet fourth person is subbing in constantly. You know, it, it teaches you concepts of the game, makes you read the game. You can't just pass and then use your little flare screen.
Like you got to read that flare screen. You know, you got to read that down screen. Like you've got to, you know, it can't just be, I'm going to follow somebody instead of all screen cause I'm tired.
Right. You've got, you really have to be able to understand your spacing, what you're looking for. Everybody has to be scoring threats. I love that.
Uh, so we do a lot of that in, in practice as well. And sometimes we'll do it where they have the whole floor and sometimes we'll do it where those three have half the floor. And so you got to get creative and you got to space really well when you only have half the floor.
I love that. Thank you. That was going to be one of my questions was just, again, like you mentioned cutting, you mentioned finishing your cut. The biggest challenge, I think for a lot of coaches with cutting is what happens after they cut, where do you want them to re-space? Where do you want them to empty?
Some coaches hold the post, say until there's an action, some empty to the weak side and the different kinds of decisions that go with that. And that I believe is one of the biggest challenges with teaching cutting. That's, you already mentioned, that's a little bit specific to relative to where other people are.
Are there any other kind of phrases or principles that you apply there? Well, I always want when they do cut, they've got to have two feet in the paint. So you can't half cut. So that's, that's one thing that we want to be able to do.
And then you do, and then you have half a second to make a wreath, right? So once you've cut and you don't get it now, pause, that's, that's where we kind of struggle. right? Because we're like, I should never stop. I'm supposed to move, especially motion teams, right?
I'm never supposed to stop. And that's where you've got to stop and evaluate whether you come back to post up. That's a read, right? You can pause.
You can see where the ball is. You can see the action because sometimes a lot of times, let's say you're on a wing and you back cut that ball might go to the other side. So if you're cutting away and you just, you're going to cut right into action, right?
There's sometimes right where there was a cut on the other side, because we have action on both sides a lot of times. And so you can't cut into their action. Right. Sometimes the ball goes back because there are three people on your side.
So you do need to go and clear out. So a lot of it is cut as hard as you can. But also, I think sometimes it's not just, oh, I cut and I don't know where to go.
It's you have to constantly see the basketball. You should constantly see it. we preach that so much on the defensive end. We don't preach it enough on the offensive end, where if I'm cut, like I have to have ball awareness all the time.
It's not about, oh, I don't know where to go. See the ball. If we can see the ball and we make that cut, you're naturally going to know where to go and where you need to be.
Because it could be, oh my gosh, my, you know, someone on the other side is posting up and there's nobody at the top and we need a high look. Right. And so I've got a flash up there. So as long as you can constantly see the basketball and you play the basketball and every cut has to count to score. And so if I'm back cutting, right, if I slip a screen, a simple down screen and I'd slip it and I'm cutting to the basket, then the person I was screening for, they need to fill.
But if neither of us have our eyes on the ball, we could be in some action and we could get a five second count on the other side because we're not seeing the ball. So we, and we also have to play to each other's strengths. Again, we're post players.
Like if I'm a post player and it doesn't mean that I'm, you know, six, three, it could be, I'm, I'm a two guard that's posting up. So anybody that's posting, right. You have to think a step ahead, but so does the ball. And so there have to be people in those spots to be able to get that post the ball.
So if we don't see the ball and we don't understand that concept and you're just kind of on your island doing things, it doesn't flow very well. So, again, that gives them a lot of autonomy. It gives them the keys a lot of times. But when you can really figure out those concepts, it is really hard to guard.
I love it. It's really. fun to play.
Really fun to play. I have no doubt about that. And I love that concept of the pause that you just explained in great detail with that.
Cause it's, it's, it's something that's changed a lot in basketball. It used to be, Oh, you gotta be constantly moving, but holding a spot is a decision that adds value, especially when you run these conceptual or these motion types of offenses. And honestly, it's one of the harder things to teach, isn't it? Oh my gosh. It is, it is really hard.
I mean, the whole idea of cutting to score. the whole idea of keeping your eyes on the ball. And then especially people that aren't comfortable in the paint, you know, and being able to hold that spot. I might, my spot might just be stay on that block for a minute, you know, and be able to see some other things evolve and then be able to make that read as to when I can go out or where I need to be going from the next, the next thought. But we get a lot of times where it's like, again, you have to make a decision.
If you make a decision, you're not wrong. you're not going to be wrong. Maybe you could have made a better decision, but you're not going to be wrong. The indecision, the gray areas, the turning in circles, that kind of stuff, because we're confused because we've taken our eyes off the ball or we're like, what am I supposed to do? That's the hard part.
And I think that's probably one of the biggest adjustments that are, you know, and for the last couple of years, we've had freshmen because we've, you know, we've had a lot. Everybody was a freshman because it was a new style, a new system. And so it was good for me to be able to reteach that after having nine years of implementing a system and then coming in and, you know, trying to run a, run the same system that looks different with every substitution or with every, you know, every player every year, but reevaluating that because it goes back to, wait, what do you want me to do? And I'm like, I don't know. You have to make that read, you know, and there's time and place where you can throw something in or make a look or make a suggestion.
But it turns into. Your coaching turns into question asking in conversation unless you're supposed to do this and this inch is here and this is here, which I love. And it works for us.
It doesn't mean that it's right, but it's right for us. Love that. It's right for you. And another thing that is a bit polarizing sometimes to talk about nowadays. I just had this conversation with the NBA assistant.
We talked about ball reversals and the positives of ball reversals and then the potential downfalls of ball reversals. One of those being obviously potentially, especially at younger levels, you turn it over, the more you reverse it. And you don't get direct to the action that creates the advantage for you. And then also it contradicts the goal of pace. And I'm curious from your perspective where ball reversals fit into your motion offense.
I think there's if you can score early, you want to score early. That's the highest percentage shot you can get. If you have an open shot, you need to take it.
And that's. Again, that's another challenging thing to be able to teach. You would think that would be like, oh, everyone would love that. But that's not easy to be able to do. Because again, there's a lot of accountability in that.
From a ball reversal standpoint, it can't just be one side to the other outside the three-point line, right? There's different ways to ball reversal. There's dribble handoffs actions. There are, you know, through that post, through that block.
They're through baseline drive drift actions. And so I think for us, we don't want the same ball reversals all the time. You want to be able to have, it could be a ball screen on a wing and, you know, flowing in from that standpoint too.
So I think it's understanding the concept of Also, how quickly are we going to reverse it? Because sometimes what happens is we dribble, dribble, dribble, pick up, pass, right? And so your defense can be set on every one of those dribbles.
So sometimes it's getting that pace of the pass even more than off the bounce. So it also depends a lot on how you're flowing into your half court offense. You know, if you can't score in that fast break, how quickly is that ball reversed? It's still going to happen before the defense can get set.
But if you're holding it, especially on that wing for a long time, which again happens at that youth level, and you dribble and you dribble, right? That's two seconds. Every bounce is a second.
And so that really allows that defense, especially at those younger levels where you're constantly trapping and you're constantly, you know, picking the ball up full court. Sometimes we underestimate our ability to really learn how to pass it and to get open. So I like the ball reversal. I don't like seven or eight. I like the variety of how you can do it.
Well, it's purposeful is what you're saying. And the goal is to score. And that's what you're keeping in mind for all this. So the different ways to ball reversal, we're trying to create an advantage.
We're not just counting our ball reversals. Exactly. Yeah.
I love that. That's such a great answer in terms of that. I want to ask you about transition. We haven't got into that a little bit in terms of flowing into this motion.
You mentioned it already. Obviously the goal is to score fast if you can. So I'm curious, do you have transition set spots or is it fill any spots in transition in terms of your spacing spots?
Yep, fill any. Most of the time your centers are gonna run to the rim, but we'll give our freedom for our guards to do that as well. And then everybody can fill the different spots.
So it's mostly about spacing and it's mostly about how do we make those decisions if I have court. Is the cue to read the person ahead of you? or, you know, behind you or what, what's the cue in terms of figuring out where to go?
Yep. Yep. You have to make that read.
So obviously the first person gets the first look. So anyone can ball handle too. Is it anyone that can go with the ball?
And again, the people that are going to be not comfortable doing that, they're probably going to outlet. I mean, we're still going to always have an outlet option. You know, we want to be able to have multiple outlets.
Actually, we like to play with two, but it's, you're not going to. Not everyone's going to just leave. And then all of a sudden, someone that's really uncomfortable is going to bring the ball up a press like that's not going to happen. And so you're going to be able to play.
But again, we do a lot of intuitive plays or a lot of intuitive play during practice that there's a lot of, you know, your 11 player breaks, right? Your constant advantage, your four on twos, your three on twos, those kinds of things. We do a lot of that so that you naturally are able to read that.
Yeah. And I agree. I mean, it sorts itself out over time in terms of those different things and the strengths and the different, is it an emphasis on hitting ahead, passing ahead, or is it dribble push type of emphasis? Well, it's going to depend, but most of the time we really like to push with a pass as much as possible.
So just to really advance it faster, but sometimes your point guards are faster than everybody else. And so you also want to give them the freedom to be able to, if they can get to the rim, get to the rim, or if they can pass ahead and that person can get to the rim or has an open three point shot, then you want to be able to take that. Obviously, I didn't watch every clip. So this is just based on some of the stuff I saw.
There seemed to be an emphasis to go opposite, to be able to get to the opposite side, to be able to cross the court, to be able to shift, obviously, transition defense. Is that something that's an emphasis? Not necessarily, but they do have the freedom to do that.
So you can outlet, you know, either side works. And then. We like to have that spacing. A lot of times we get stuck on the same side and it would be nice if we could balance the floor a little bit better, but sometimes that's, that's what happens. But no, anybody can bring up the, up the, you know, bring the ball up the floor at any point.
And then we just have spacing where it's like, they can go to any one of our, you know, the excess you put on the floor. And then we know where to fill from there. So it's not, it does give them the freedom. If we can get a layup, we want to be able to get a layup. If we can get it into the paint, we want to be able to get it into paint.
If not, then we'll really let them, you know, be able to have that, that freedom and that creativity. So a lot of times our, our four player, um, is a pretty good ball handler and can really stretch that. Uh, and, and you've got to work on that ball handling a lot, right. And that's also something that we don't necessarily always work a lot on. We work a lot on dribble moves, but not just necessarily straight line.
How do you make one decision, you know, or maybe two. It's not about making seven or eight, especially those kind of tweener players that aren't necessarily point guard. Your point guards might have to navigate a little bit more, right? And some of our combo guards might have to navigate a little bit more and get creative because we get picked up a lot to try to slow us down.
And so. You do have to work on that, but our, but our, you know, our fours and our fives essentially really have to master one move, you know, a couple dribbles. And, but it also gives them the freedom if they can get to the glass and get to the glass. It's great stuff.
It's beautiful to watch. If coach, and we know your preference, but if coach Jenny was to call a play, what would be the reason she would call a set play? I mean, end of game situation probably, or, but we also do.
you know, we have different formations, but they're still about them making reads. So it might be just to change the tempo or, you know, your fourth quarter management or things like that. So you'll emphasize a certain alignment or a certain spacing.
Is that what you mean by? Yeah. We might do some like four across stuff where it's, you know, allowing them to have a little bit more, more, uh, not necessarily more freedom. But a little bit, or it might be just be an emphasis on, okay, sometimes I feel like our decision making is we're settling a lot for an outside shot where we need to get it in the paint.
And so there could be, you know, something like that. A lot of times, instead of calling necessarily a set play, I might call a specific action that we need to have that could look different. But it's a specific action that I feel like, okay, this could be, this can get us a little bit more movement.
You know, dribble handoffs tend to do that sometimes. Just get to a build and a reversal. The other thing I've got to ask about is the assisted shot rate. I mean, just obviously tremendous emphasis on getting assists and creating advantages for your teammates. And I'm wondering how you're building that and how you're creating that type of culture within your program.
You know, we talk a little bit about assists, but we don't necessarily say, OK, we have to have this. And it's a byproduct again, is it? It is a byproduct.
It is. And I think what's been really fun in these last two years. is after a game, I'm sorry. Clearly I'm talking too much.
But after a game, the first thing they ask always is what's our assist number? What's our assist number? And I never told them to ask that.
I just asked them, what do you want? What do you want to know? And that's always the first thing that they say.
And I love that. I think that's a really cool. Now, part of that. It's the culture that was already here. And we got so lucky coming into that.
We just had these incredible people. And then we have incredible leaders that just say, I don't care. I just want to win. Right.
And so we had great talent, but they just wanted to win. So I think there's part of that. But I also think when you start to see and you start to value and assist as much as you start, as you value a basket, because it's just the byproduct, right?
It's you find pure joy. playing and you find pure joy in getting a stop or, you know, picking a defensive part because you do, you face a variety of different game plans. You know, sometimes people try to get really physical. Sometimes people sag off. Sometimes people try to prep.
Sometimes people switch. And so you've seen everything. Some people do triangle and two, and you still run the same stuff, you know, some people's own.
And so it tests your own IQ a little bit and it tests your own versatility a little bit, but yet you realize that you're. part of this team and you start to build this trust and this camaraderie really that comes out on the floor because you start, you start to innately read each other because it's your nonverbal communication that really starts to step up as the season goes on. Yes, there has to be verbal communication, but also that nonverbal where you really start to read each other.
And I think that's, you know, when you can play to each other's strengths and it's not like we sit there and talk about that, but that's exactly what's happening. And so they really value. that number. So I don't know if it's anything that we brought in or they just innately like, because you love basketball.
I love basketball. You watch, you watch the best of the best. I mean, LeBron's praying to other people's strengths. Gianna's placed other people's strengths.
I mean, you watch those guys, you know, and then you watch Sue Bird, look at what she's done. Look at what Diana Trasi's done. I mean, these, these players have been, you know, absolutely amazing.
You know, I just. was that USA basketball this last weekend and listening to Sylvia Fowles talk about how great her teammates were. I mean, that's the kind of experience that you want. And so when you have the best of the best that are talking about elevating the people around them, then they had fun and they were pretty darn good. And so I think if they can do that, I think we can do that.
Coaches have been tremendous. I mean, so much value you've added for coaches and so many things. And I want to circle back.
I mean, the love part is absolutely awesome. I'm there with you. But I know a lot of coaches struggle with balancing love, with holding people accountable to what they need to do to help them be successful and help the team be successful. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you approach that?
Well, I think there's, you know, cause we still have to be disciplined and we still have to, you know, and sometimes as coaches, we get a little bit afraid of that and, and it's hard and it's hard to make hard decisions. It's hard to have hard conversations. It's hard to make sure that they're touching a line. It's hard sometimes. I mean, even I have a hard time when, you know, they're doing a conditioning drill and they're on their last length and somebody didn't touch line and you've got to blow your whistle.
You have to do that. I think that the easiest way to do that is one, we've got to explain the why. Young people really want to know why you're doing what you're doing.
And then we have to ask them, do you want me to hold you accountable? Do you want me to let that go? Because most of the time they're going to say no, and they're going to understand.
And we also have to be okay if they're mad. Now, we also, sometimes we cross a line, right, that we don't need to cross. And so it is, it's a, it's a fine line of being able to have that. I think, you know, we talk a lot about emotional intelligence too, right?
We talked about basketball intelligence. You also have to know some people are going to be able to handle things and some people aren't. And as coaches, I'm sorry, that's just our job to know that. And it's our job to be able to be vulnerable and say, sorry.
And it's our job to be able to explain. It's our job to be able to build that one-on-one relationship with each person, but still there have to be standards. There have to be standards and we have to hold them to that.
I think more often than not, if they can really come up with those standards and you ask them, what do you want me to hold you accountable to? They're going to be harder than maybe you even would. And also you can say, okay, well, we forgot this one.
Are you comfortable? This is important to me. Are you comfortable if I hold you to this standard too?
They're going to say yes. And so I think when we can create that environment and then we also put each other in positions where we say, you know, and I do this a lot to our seniors or, you know, more the more experienced players. OK, if I have to continue to hold us accountable, we're not going to win as many games. If you do, we're going to win a lot more. And so I think the more that we give the keys and we give the tools to teammates holding each other accountable, then all of a sudden your culture looks a heck of a lot better.
And the byproduct is winning. It's a great answer, coach. I knew you had been successful. And now I feel with this podcast, we've learned a bit more about why you've been successful.
So thank you so much for sharing the game with us. This has just been tremendous. Well, this has been really fun. I appreciate you because I have a lot of respect for you too and all the things that you're doing.
And so very humbled to be on here. but also just really appreciative. So thank you.