Transcript for:
Lecture on Career Path and Founding Peak Projects

so I grew up in planwell Michigan it's a small town of 4,000 people in Southwest Michigan um grew up on a little Lake mom was a public school teacher dad was a wastewater treatment consultant grew up outside fishing boating um playing in the woods you know it was great um my grandpa was was pretty artistic my dad was a ceramicist um at night and so was kind of around those creative people early on which was was awesome um kind of fostered my love for art and creativity was really into drawing and painting um my dad was also pretty handy you know when we were growing up when something broke we kind of just fixed it ourselves um so I love building model rockets with him growing up and you know As I Grew Older I built you know bigger things like skateboard ramps and in the winter built built Big snowboard jumps and rails um to use with my friends um nice so was was always into you know design and and kind of building things from from a young age you know in high school um kind of did odd jobs like stained decks painted houses um that stuff so I could work outside work my own hours um I got into hockey at a young age um and played a lot kind of traveled around the Midwest went to traveled to Canada and kind of um in eighth grade at at that point if you're decent you kind of go to Canada and play Juniors and um that was kind of late out for me but I didn't want to move away from home I wanted to stay and grow up with my friends and not live with a host family so stopped and my dad was kind of like what are you going to do with uh with your time and I was like you know I'll keep playing soccer snowboarding you know do the do the high school thing he's like well let me show you what I did um he popped in the VHS it's him you know shirtless short shorts um mustache uh pole vaulting and I was like whoa that's that looks rad he was like you know I'm happy to show you you know I had a lot of fun doing it I was like all right so we went to the high school track and uh I started pull vating and got super into it and that was what I was doing um throughout High School um got pretty good at it and um helped me get recruited to to Brown um so I ended up leaving Michigan going to Brown um I wanted to kind of go get out of smalltown Michigan go somewhere um near a bigger city um either out east or out west um and so landed at Brown it was amazing experience super diverse P vaulted through Brown um I actually I studed economics um huh was was very into um the stock market finances Etc but you know always had that love for building and art so Ry Rhode Island School design was right down the hill from Brown and so I took a lot of art and architecture classes there um which was fun that kind of like scratched that itch my yeah my junior year I worked uh in on Wall Street New York um didn't have a good time um you know wore a suit rode the subway every day cranked an Excel that seems from what we so we know you that seems like the very polar opposite I can't imagine you wearing suit in Wall Street that doesn't seem to fit at all I know um you know influenced by the um the East Coast kids I went to school with and it was it was interesting work and you could it was very lucrative at a young age but um you know I just I loved um I wanted to after college you know be in a place where I could snowboard and and and play outside and stuff um and so I just didn't really have a good summer I mean I I had a lot of fun but not in uh not working so an actual friend of mine on the track team had a similar experience and um he said hey you should really look at um this cool company called DPR in the Bay Area and I was like okay tell me about it so um I went to a job fair with him um met the DPR guys and you know they flew me out to San Francisco I had a great visit um San Francisco was close to Tahoe so I could snowboard it was a progressive place it was sunny I was like this sounds like a great place to you know start a new career so um and so DPR was was a finance company it was actually a large commercial construction company um and they build um a lot of medical manufacturing facilities Stanford buildings stuff like that and so they actually had a strong Brown contingency at DPR um and they were known for taking um kind of non-engineer earing students and turning them into to project engineers and project managers so um yeah I was one of the few economics Majors that got a job there I think I told you before you know in in college I built bars for fraternities and some furniture to kind of make money and I actually use that in my interview I'm like hey I didn't study engineering but like I can build stuff and I think it went over well so I got a job there moved out to San Francisco with some college friends um but you know was in it was that was in ' 07 when you know the economy wasn't doing well right and I wasn't put on very interesting projects um and I really wanted to build you know interesting complex contemporary sustainable um projects and that just wasn't happening at DPR for me so kind of leveraged my network um got some interviews and actually interviewed at a family office um that was Bayshore Global Management and um they were doing some really cool projects for a singular family um and so that sounded super interesting to me the interview went well and I ended up getting a job there just six months after working at DPR so I was only at DPR for a short stint went to Bayshore and then I was at Bayshore for seven years um managing this one family's residential real estate portfolio we were doing projects um in San Francisco and uh Silicon Valley as well as New York and that's what really exposed me to um high-end residential design and construction um and it was super fun we did some really cool projects um the clients were were amazing um and after seven years you know I was like wow this is this is fun I think that there's like a real Niche here there's a real need for my services um for these services in the broader market so you know mustered up the courage um left Bayshore in 4 amicably I must say um I still consult back to Bayshore to this day and that was 2014 so started Peak projects um 10 years ago wow that's interesting so what were you doing at bayor was it uh kind of like being an owner's rep like a lot of the same things you do now it was yes um we would help that principle um acquire properties so manage the due diligence process um as well as build teams and then support and manage those teams through design permitting and construction and then there we also helped with property maintenance and management gotcha yeah interesting good ah no go ahead I was just goingon to ask so what was the motivation to go off and do something on your own and I asked that question because I do think it's it takes a certain type of person to want to do that and then continue to do that like we were just talking before the call that having a business is not is not for everybody so I'm just curious like what was the the motivation to attempt this and then obviously keep going with it once it started yeah um basore was a great place to work but um you know I I always um kind of wanted to to do something on my own um and I wanted to have kind of more control of of my own schedule um and you know a lot of Architects contractors that I met were just really um excited me about doing this for other people and I couldn't do it for other people at Bayshore right so uh me wanting to to help more people um kind of led me to to start Peak and really take the concept to the the broader public and I've always been um a pretty hardworking ambitious person um I I got was instilled that with uh from my parents you know they're they're hardworking middle class folks and so um always want to do something on my own um that you know I Had Creative control over yeah it's really interesting because if we kind of like look back at your story you know like it seems like you've always somehow managed to use the both sides of their brain like their creative and the more like rational um you know analytic type of type of mindset which is very interesting and it seems like you're so very conscious in trying to find like your personal balance in what you do um the other thing that's interesting is that eventually you move pretty far from Michigan at the end of the day yeah but you're still surrounded by snow you can see the but you still move pretty far um but I could see how how you were already very entrepreneurial at a young age like doing the bars and kind of like even even getting into like different types of physical activities or or creative activities on your own so it's interesting I found every time you kind of like look at where you are in life and look back like the things you went through it wasn't by accident like it was kind of like most expected you know for those things to happen in some ways yeah definitely um I've always been interested in in trying new things um and I've always had a variety of interests um and I really think you know this line of work now kind of suits me really well well um you get to use both sides of of of your brain um the analytical side um more creative qualitative side um so yeah definitely the upbringing the interest and and all that kind of definitely led me here so talking about Peak projects um maybe give some give the folks listening some background and some descriptions as to you know the size of your operation the types of projects you focus on how many projects you have going on so we get a a sense of the operation and who you guys are yep sounds good um so Peak projects is uh owner representative in project management consultancy um we're 59 people uh as of today we're managing a little under a 100 projects we're currently working in 12 States Hawaii California Nevada Washington Colorado Utah Montana Wyoming Texas New York Pennsylvania and Florida you should just list the states you should just list the states you're not operating in eventually that'll be the shorter list day one day yes um we're also doing some projects in British Columbia Canada Mexico Puerto Rico and the domican Republic um majority of those projects are high-end single family residential projects um our typical construction budget is between 15 and $50 million we do have some out liers at you know 100 million 150 and and even one uh behemoth at 250 million what um yeah pretty pretty wild project um in in Florida but we yeah we help clients um throughout the entire process um you know we play a critical role in overseeing and representing the owner's interests you know throughout the planning design and construction phases of a project um um kind of like I described earlier will help in All Phases as early as due diligence to help clients acquire properties um intelligently help build High performing teams negotiate those contracts and then help create momentum and maintain momentum through the design permanent and construction process you know overseeing the project from the owner's goals and objectives perspective as well as the budget and schedule perspective um and really just have the team have an amazing time with the project have the client enjoy the process make it efficient for all the team members and and make it an enjoyable experience along the way yeah it's interesting so maybe you would know better than us but I feel like the role and position of an owner's representative in the single family residential space is relatively new I want to say the last maybe 15 years or so it's become last 10 years it's become much more popular I think owners reps are have been much more common in commercial space in the commercial space which with you know the budgets are much much higher for big projects but um the question is I guess for most folks who might not have heard of this position before why would such an individual or company be needed in addition to the typical two big players which are the Architects and the contractor kind of the two that people think about and then throw in designer possibly those are like the three that everyone knows of and you know folks might be wondering well that those two or three people those that covers all my basis so why would I have an owner rep on top of that yeah totally um I think like you said the position has evolved a lot in in the last 10 years right I think the reason owner reps exist more so now is there's an increased emphasis on project management you know I think there's just a growing recognition of the importance of professional project management in construction projects um the projects overall are increasing in complexity you know I think you're right it was more common in commercial projects but you know as the size and scale and complexity of these residential projects increased you know so did the need for you know holistic Professional Management um I think there's also been a shift towards like integrated project delivery models you know which which promotes collaboration risk sharing and definitely like the early involvement of all key stakeholders like precon gc's Etc you know in this model you align on Project goals and optimize project outcomes right um whereas you know traditionally you might hire an architect complete the entire design and then hire a GC you know I think the integrated project delivery model needs more upfront Management in that process um I think good owners now really focus on risk mitigation you know there's various um risk and challenges along a construction project you know economic uncertainty supply chain disruptions regulatory changes weather Etc um I think ORS good ones at least are tasked with identifying assessing mitigating those risks on behalf of the client and the project team and you know at the end of the today I think affluent owners want specialized help right successful people are always looking for ways to improve how they do things you know if you can hire an expert they typically do you know which is led to a rise in in owner's Representatives yeah because you could ask your architect and contractor to kind of like figure stuff on the Fly and do it as best as they can but they ultimately that's not their training their Forte or even sometimes their interest well that that's an interesting comment because speaking to your Point Grant about the complexity of projects and obviously when you have projects that are $20 million in construction they are complex but I think folks also kind of they underestimate how complex smaller budgets smaller budget projects are too um and I so I think before let's say the architect was sort of the one that was being the owner's rep and when there's not an owner's representative your responsibilities as an of O typically falls on the architect but speaking to the complexity of projects it's it's sometimes we' even forget how complex these things are and there is therefore an advantage to having let's say this third person the who kind of is a project manager in a sense but also sort of overseas and keeps tabs on all all of the things everything across the entire entire board and it's very easy in a project that lasts 2 years which is a typical timeline for even a modestly sized project a house for things to fall through the cracks because the archit we as Architects we have enough stuff to worry about and um and I feel like when there is an O there's kind of from our perspective in a way there's also a safety net that you bring for in case that we are the are the contractor forget something when we are specializing and focusing on the architecture the contractor is focusing on the building I think the word focusing is very important because if we lose focus on what we've been hired for then I think that's where the projects maybe start to not be as successful as it could have been you know because we just try to take on too much on our plate um so having an O to to me the best Advantage is that we can really focus on what we're really good at and kind of let everyone else focus on what they're really good at yeah well said um I think yeah traditionally um Architects played that role and you know I think there can be conflict sometimes right of of um between maybe for the architect and the GC right um I think it really makes sense to have someone in the owner's seat just to mitigate any conflicts that the contractor might have of managing their own work or um with the architect you know project athetic and Direction conflicts you know sometimes those are can be at odds with with the client sometimes and it's I think it's beneficial and nice to have a a non-biased third party um managing um those folks on behalf of the client so like you said the architect can focus on what they do best and what they want to do and the GC can focus on putting good work in place um and the O can kind of take care of the rest all the administrative burdens Etc um and also hold the client accountable um to make decisions in a timely fashion we find our architect and GC Partners really value that with us um and that we're helping them get the information they need quickly and efficiently yeah there's a few things I want to pick up on what you said first was a non I forget what you called it non-biased uh third part third party non-biased third party yeah it's a it's a great phrase because it's a it's a very good description and um you know this because we we've talked about it before but I think that something that that that as a value ad just to the due to the nature of your position is significant because when a client speaks to an architect and then they turn and they speak to a contractor again we're representing our the you know the best for the project but also our own needs to a certain degree and there's always a little bit of friction between the architect and the contractor generally and so I feel I find sometimes for clients especially at the beginning of a project they just don't know who to fully trust because it's very easy to feel like well the architect's going to give me certain answers because they are an architect and the GC is going to give me certain answers because they are a GC whereas an owner's rep I mean obviously you have stake because let's say you want the project but it's it's different like you don't you're not at you're not designing it and you're not building it so it allows you to be a non-biased third party which I think from a client standpoint would be very beneficial especially in the early phases just to have that that person who can say I've worked in your case on I don't know how many projects you have going on almost a hundred I've seen a bunch of things I can tell you that you know this is the the way to go this is fair or not fair etc etc yeah well said I think um one thing that you know because we ideally love to get involved early um to help set those expectations um we get involved later in the process um often too when when the team hasn't um set um clear goals objectives um for the project and then we kind of have to step in and do that so um I think it's really important to to work with the client in the very early days of a project and establish their goals their objectives any constraints and talk about budget and schedule early and if you do that well in the beginning um that that just set you up for Success right I think um there's a business management author I like Peter lenion I think he says something like you know in a good organization you have to tell people um what to do seven times before they start hearing it so I think you know that happens or that doesn't happen a lot on projects right we'll talk about budget and schedule once and then like then it doesn't get talked about again right that's what happens when we come on late and there's budget or schedule issues on a project right it's like well the team didn't always track back to those original goals right and we always are are holding those at the four front of the project they're in every weekly update and we're tracking them so they they don't get lost and they don't get forgot about right the client goals are always um held in in front of us it's interesting that sometimes you guys are brought on later on into a project and this has happened to us uh I feel like more often than an average architecture office where we are called on when the client is already partway through a process with a designer an architect whatever whatever and it's interesting because in that in that role we're acting at the in the beginning as a consultant to kind of do an audit let's say but I still sometimes sense that there's not as much trust in what we're saying simply because again we could have skin in the game so it's kind of like oh yeah you should redo everything and hire us and we'll start the project from scratch even though that's not what we always propose um but because we're the architect they're like ah I don't know if I should listen to you um so in in some of those cases like because of that you know miscommunication or non-existing communication about the sensitive topic which are budget and schedule it feels like if you don't talk about it during you know the design process and the design phases it becomes kind of like this taboo that like the elephant in the room that nobody wants to bring up and then you just just kind of burn your Bridges and kill your relationship between the client and the architect or designer and it's kind of too bad because it went that way because nobody really like did what they were supposed to do or brought it up and it's kind of too late at this point to I feel yeah you know sometimes Savage what's what's there when maybe if you feel like somebody needs to step in to actually help the situation then that might save the project from going past then that non return and and Grant to your point the reoccurring um emphasis on things or or weekly meetings or however you kind of interpret that the seven times right um is crucial it's when stuff doesn't get talked about for a long period That's when problems end up happening yeah bad news doesn't age well but so how do you how do you how do you see clients finding you um as an owner's rep is it because the architect or the contractor like mention mention it to them be like you know you should probably like hire someone else to like work on this project are they aware of this profession existing in that field or like how how how do they come on board basically yeah great question um I would say the majority of of our inbound referrals are coming from industry Partners you know like yourselves Architects contractors interior designers um folks like that who are on board with a project and a client and and see the need for um a collaborative empathetic owner's rep like Peak to jump in and help so I think that speaks to um how well we work with our industry partners and that our industry Partners value us as you know strategic collaborators or strategic Partners if you will um in helping these projects come to fruition um a efficiently and effectively so majority our industry Partners we do get clients who are doing repeat projects um Family offices single family offices multif family offices land use attorneys real estate agents um those are all the folks who are are referring us referring us work and you know we don't do much much marketing you know our websites um pretty vague we're just busy heads down executing doing really good work and we think good work but gets more work it's interesting because if you were to if we were to speak with uh an architect or designer and ask their opinion on an owner's representative you would get mixed answers depending on who you're speaking with and I usually find there's not a lot of Middle Ground neutrality it's either they had a great experience and they love it um or they hated it and they're like be careful of all owner reps it's it's sketchy territory so um talking from from the latter position I think the the concern that other professionals have so the architect and let's say the contractor is that when there's an owner's rep involved and maybe the client would have the same concern too that it's just another layer of um like another person have to go through to get to the client so there's not going to have there's not going to be direct communication between the architect and the client or the client and the architect there's going to be this hindrance that's in the way um this kind of middle management person you know um can you speak to to that if it's true false or how how you guys operate so that it's it's not that way um because I do know this is a concern amongst a lot of professionals no totally we we find ourselves um having to explain ourselves um or apologize for um our competitors but um I think uh since 2014 you know we've always taken a collaborative empathetic and objective approach to our work which I think is really different you know like you said unfortunately owner reps have gotten a bad rep in the past because some individual reps or firms try to prove their worth by you know grinding down other team members to prove their Worth or selectively holding information to maybe make themselves look better um you know our process is simply to support owners in setting clear goals and objectives hiring the best and brightest teams compensating them all fairly creating a great work environment collaborating sharing expertise and resources freely and doing what's best for the project you know in the olden days maybe that you know Gruff heavy-handed model worked but I think it only worked for clients right it didn't work for the team the know the project they were burnt out no one wanted to work together again there was Project fatig you know I think in this day and if you read any leadership or management book that's not how you you get the best work product from people right it's pretty simple to us but I guess it hasn't been that simple to you know others in the industry um and so I think that's why we've been successful is really looking at it um from a strategic partnership lens and trying to help um and not not oversee or manage but help the team have what they need to be successful and meet the client's goals um I also think you know some owners reps might just do one thing or the other like specialize in just setting up contracts or just doing you know traditional construction management um you know I think a lot of a lot of folks think that you know the O is there to manage or police the general contractor whereas our expertise and scope aperture is is much wider you know like I said before we get involved with the entire process from due diligence to team selection through construction you know um and I think that that really sets us apart I think we also Peak we hire well-educated experienced kind detail oriented highly motivated people um you know we have a culture of learning where everyone's encouraged to make our projects process and Company better each and every day and I think that that that um ethos you know really sets us apart and um we're hoping that you know more more companies follow suit so if an architect is working on a project and you guys are the O does the architect and the contractor still have direct access to a client or is everything going to you and then to the client you know obviously each each client is different but we strongly Advocate that they definitely still have direct access to the client right for the design process to work well the architect needs to interface with the client it's such a personal thing that you know we strongly advocate for client involvement at least in the early stages of design and through you know final material uh selection right um I think for there to be true trust um amongst the team though the client has to have a good trusting relationship with the architect and the the GC right some owners um may go to us for information as we're one point of contact and maybe that's more efficient um and that happens from time to time but we're always trying to pull in the team um to have client interface um like I said in the design process um or big project Milestones right like it's important that a client shows up is respectful and thanks people on their team for working hard on their projects I agree with that um but that that's I laugh but it's ALS it's definitely true and it sounds like babysitting to me but it's kind of an interesting thing right because the owner's rep is the representative of the owner and you're kind of like the advisor agent throughout the entire process ideally of the client and the owner but there's also you had mentioned the idea that really you are advocating what's best for the project which is not always the same thing as what the client wants in fact we find right fairly often not necessarily to the client's fault they're not in line because the client doesn't know this process it also sometimes they ask for things or suggest things or want things to go a certain way and we have to say uh look you're the owner if you really really want to try that we can but I'm telling you that's not the recipe for success but anyway so it Go the idea though is that I think one of your the value ads you guys bring is that again you're championing the project and whatever is best for the project and it doesn't mean that you are again just cracking the whip on behalf of whatever the owner wants yeah correct well said um that that happens often where an issue will come up and you know we're collectively problem solving and the the recommendation the team makes to the client might not be what the client originally wanted but it's what's best for the project and if you go about laying out options in a databased objective manner pros and cons of each and the recommendation on why good logical owners will understand and come to terms with that and usually make the right decision do you guys have like a an onboarding process to take on clients and project like are you are you selective as to like basically which which project you engage with with and which ones you're not besides just the scope but in terms of you know Vibe and and relationship yeah definitely um we're we're lucky now where um we can be a little bit more selective on projects but you know a good project to us um is architecturally obviously interesting um complex in a in a cool place but more important than not the client you know has to be the right fit yeah they have to share similar values to to Peak um they need to be respectful and appreciative of of us and what we do and um ideally they like they need to like allow us to advise them properly um they need to allow us to hire good teams they can't just hire a worldclass architect and the rest the Consultants off Yelp right they got to do it right right so we um when we're we're doing like initial um you know business development and new client calls you know we kind of have our own little list of questions we're asking to try to get and pick at that and understand how they tick and how they think what their um what their feelings are towards budget and schedule do they have realistic expectations or are we going to need to significantly modify them right yeah um do they have big blind spots or not right how's this going to be because these projects as you know not short right if we're getting involved early we could be working with this client for two three four five six years right so you got to make sure it's it's a good fit um personally and professionally and you're going to be most likely the person giving them the good and the bad news too so I feel like that's right yes that's the other advantage of having you guys involved like o this is a challenge this is the problem Peak will handle it talk to the client for us yeah we're we're happy and we do that a lot we Shield the the team members the architect the GC from a lot of um unnecessary negative noise on a project right but that's to allow you to focus on what you want to do and not get bogged down by um you know bad dynamics of a project right yeah we if we can we can Shield that from you as much as possible I was wondering does the style of projects you guys work on matters for what you do like a modern versus super traditional versus whatever else or is it not so relevant oh good question um it is relevant I think since I started you know 10 years ago in the Bay Area you know technology really influenced that these were Tech Founders private Equity VC type folks most of them um were were were doing more contemporary projects right so predominantly most of our work is is is leaning towards the Contemporary side we have done a little bit of traditional work we've also done some some classical work you know with you know Ferguson and shamamian Andrew skurman um Mark Appleton folks like that um but I would have to say most of it you know sides on the traditional side interesting contemporary yeah yeah uh maybe talking about you know getting to the nuts and bolts of what happens typically I know it varies depending on the project but typically during the phases so let's say I'm a client I'm approaching you we're having our first meeting and I've been smart enough to approach you from the very beginning as opposed to later on when hits the fan and I said okay I I I don't know anything about construction or architecture none of that stuff um maybe I have an architect in mind and a contractor in mind um I have a healthy budget I'm going to do a house um like what would be some of the key things that you would tell me or some of the like you mentioned blind spots what are the common uh blind spots that clients have at the beginning that they're not aware of most clients are think about budget they think about style but beyond that and and maybe schedule but beyond that there's not a whole lot so what are the things that you would tell me that I would you know I'm missing from my my vision yes definitely um the biggest blind spots I think are kind of not really defining um your your goals properly in the beginning and taking time investing time to to do that upfront right um a lot of clients will acquire a property ask a friend who they used call that architect and then like get going right I think it's really important to to take your time um think about Ponder what what your goals are for the project is this you know know the home for the next 5 years is this a forever home do you want to have multiple family members and grandkids use it you know like really really understand what this is going to be and then do your due diligence and obviously PE can help with that um like architecturally what's what's interesting to you um and from there we try to get uh get insights from the client on on what makes them tick um you know are they going to be okay okay with more of an artistic nonlinear process or are they going to be quick decision makers straight down the middle right there are different firms that are better for each of those types of people or maybe they want to hire an out of town architect where they're going to need a local a to execute the project properly so we really just kind of understand what their long-term goals are what they want to accomplish how do they want to accomplish them what's their working style and then from our experience in current projects can kind of match um them up with potential good design partners and help facilitate um interviews and help kind of compare them side by side and help them make an informed decision um but it's really ultimately up to the client and what they want to do um in in that realm but let's say we've helped them acquire a property um we've helped them select you know an amazing architect you know then kind of Cruising Into The Phases right in the early concept design phase right we're collaborating with the architect and client to ensure there's very specific goals objectives and constraints um we're assisting the architect and the client in engaging any other design professionals necessary at that moment um we can provide input and feedback during that design concept um we start establishing our project budgets and timelines we start our NDA insurance and invoice review process um we'll start holding coordination meetings to ensure forward progress so very early um we're kind of getting into the project management rhythm with meetings document Administration budget and schedule management and kind of carrying this thing through um after concept obviously there's schematic design um we're helping the client and architect select and engage additional design professionals Structural Engineers precon gc's Etc um also reviewing and providing feedback on the design um as needed continuing to ensure alignment with the original project objectives constraints and goals um and then we also can help kind of facilitate discussions obviously respectfully with the architect around design uh options materials and systems you know leveraging our experience from all of our projects um early on we like to talk about you know the operating and maintenance of a home because those preferences can influence design um and in every phase we're obviously obtaining updating pricing and schedule information right um yeah and in these early phases this is where we really want to make sure the client loves where they're going and what they have right it's so much easier to iter in the early design phases than later on when you have a bunch of Consultants right and so we really advise the client to spend as much time as they need with the architect in SD to dial in what they want um before they bring in a bunch of other folks I I totally agree um you know jumping back to that that first meeting you know i' asked you like what would be the things you would cover with the client I did not expect your answer to be what it was which is to make sure the client understands and really thinks about their goals and what's funny about that answer is that it's precisely the same thing that we would say if we were asked that question that what would be the thing that a client should do that they Overlook in 95% of the time it's you should really think about really what are your object like think about it what are your goals what are your objectives what is the big why behind the project um because of course and and you know this but for us if we have that then our scope of the work goes way more smoothly if we don't have that we end up it's sort of like a pyramid we end up building a design on a false foundation and it at some point it causes problems and that's often I find I have seen that's part of the reason why sometimes when you get later on into design like say let say significantly through SD or maybe even beyond that there's a shift and the client says I want to change just dramatically and you realize it's because we didn't actually have that conversation at the beginning of what are the goals well said I like how you said that yeah designing on a false Foundation um it seems pretty pretty trivial and simple but I think establishing those goals and objectives and the why early on is just so critical and then tracking back to that at every stage of the project right because like you said after SD you cruise into to design development the DD and you're collaborating with like an entire design team to further that chosen design concept there's Specialists and systems and consultants and all this Jazz that that go into it and that thin plan set starts to get a little bit thicker right and then it gets real thick when you get into CDs right and if you change something there you know there's just like a massive reverberation through the whole plan set that's that's really disruptive um expensive and timec consuming so um before design starts you're you're you described kind of the conversations you would have with a client you're putting together the team or helping them do that during um concept design are you guys typically sitting in uh and being present during design concept design and schematic design meetings and giving your I guess opinions or thoughts on whether or not design option A or B is better or worse or how does how does that go yeah we we definitely sit in on design meetings I think to be able to properly um lead and oversee a project we have to be you know involved in the design process for sure um mainly from a budget and schedule perspective um you know we try our best to stay in our lane as an owner's rep right we're not the Architects um we're happy to leverage our um data and our expertise from our Tech years of projects and our 100 plus current projects now some clients and Architects want to understand what other people are doing or what Peak thinks about things but you know we really leave it to the architect to lead the design with the client and we'll comment if or as needed throughout that process but we really want to empower the architect to lead and manage that yeah so I asked that question because I I I can feel the Architects listening thinking I do not want another person in that room saying well I think the blue one's better uh no that's not that's not what we're saying for sure no but I I could see how it's super beneficial for us to kind of also have an understanding of you know the reality of the ideas that we're proposing because often times there is a huge gap between what Architects have in mind and what actually is fible so I think having that check in Balance you know like as you move through is super important in being a ient and being efficient in term of creativity right putting the effort where you know things are going to be possible yeah um I think you know great Architects do do an amazing job at defining the program with the client right yeah um we everyone has unique experiences so I think the best teams leverage everyone's experience right and I've yet to met someone who knows everything right so I I think it's it's awesome when one can kind of um get along and leverage everyone's expertise um we're working on some projects where the Architects are very strong in the design but in the systems you know eek actually has more experience and we're helping them ask about backup power redundant backup Power Systems you know off- grid capabilities um security it AV type stuff that we're seeing on other complex projects s and asking the architect and client hey other people are doing this is this of interest to you right those are questions that the architect didn't ask right yeah and so we're being helpful and making sure the owner knows all the potential options they have so they can make the best informed decision I I like that point because it ties back into in my view the the complexity of projects and it's one of the reasons why we love have taking the collaborative approach to working with other professionals and working with other and sometimes even new professionals is because if everyone's cool then you get this share information and a contractor we're working with they have you know a lot of times there there's a lot of older contractors who've done lots of projects a lot of different types of projects and it's just a resource it's like hey we've done this detail a bunch of times it works but take a look at it do you have a better way of doing it um because as an architecture P again you mentioned these projects take so long right there's there's a cap to how many projects we can take on versus kind of the people power well and Custom Homes are also very unique so every time it's kind of a it's a different it's a different recipe in some way right like there is always new things you can learn depending on what the design wants to be where it's happening if it's in a state where there is snow or in a place where there's no snow you know it comes back to that's true like there is a lot of different things to know about yeah definitely um I think where we've been helpful there too is you know we're doing projects across North America where one project the architect may only have experience in in warm weather climates andum they're doing a project in Tahoe or in a high Alpine environment and they don't know the nuances of Designing in in in such a place right and if they're open you know P can help um inform them of best practices in those environments right um so we can kind of help Elevate Architects um as needed different projects and just help them be successful in areas where they may not have um the most uh most current experience yeah it's funny this is sort of an aside in a sense but um because we practice on the east coast and the West Coast we have a pretty good sense of of those two climates and like snow and things like this even just gutters a lot of California homes don't even have gutter I don't get that and you know having like an airspace behind siding and all this kind of stuff um but uh what I was to say is that sometimes I hear you know stories of an architect who is used to practicing as you said in one climate let's say a moderate climate and then they're doing a house in trucky or something and they also for whatever reason them or the client have decided to hire a contractor who also doesn't have experience in that area and then sometimes also an engineer who doesn't do Engineering in that area and and I'm like that is I've I mean if it works out then hats off to all three of all four of you but if it doesn't and you're gonna and there's problems which you probably will have in that case then I don't know why you did that um you know I I would not speaking as an architect I were practicing it in a place where I wasn't familiar with my first instinct would be to not hire a GC who does not do work there uh because the GC is the one who builds the things and they know best practices and I wouldn't want them or an owner's rep or somebody who was local when it comes especially when we're talking about construction the detailing keeping water out and all that kind of stuff I don't want to mess around with trying to reinvent the wheel in a new place like that's just I don't need that totally um yeah if that were to happen you know that's when a client I think um just didn't do a great job selecting um a contractor didn't do a great job selecting um the team and putting them together to give the project the highest chance of success um yeah and you know in the in the team structure the way I say it too is that there is more how do I put it more flexibility or it's easier for an architect to do work in different places uh definitely you know uh it's not to say the architect should not is not responsible for thinking through the construction aspect of a project or the engineering or whatever else but you know the engineer does the engineering the contractor is in charge of constructing it so it that's benefit for us we can work in a bunch of places yes yeah and you can work too a contractor can't that's true contract B more complicated um yeah similar to your business model the owner's rep business model at least ours is is more fluid like that right like we can pick up and manage projects kind of anywhere right and travel like you as needed where obviously a GC needs to have more of a localized um presence in terms of people equipment Etc to do work so it's definitely harder for for any GC to to scale quickly or go to New Markets effectively there are some who already have that infrastructure who do it well but it's really hard for the average local contractor to to kind of um to scale and go to somewhere different yeah yeah and the amount of um call it building science knowledge they accumulate when they work in a specific territory is is so deep to that um it's a weird thing for us we're a lot of Architects will say that we're kind of generalists like we know a lot about we know a little about no how do I say it we know a little about a lot of things yeah um but getting back to to the to the to the process so we left off at DD but I did have a question of project budgets right so in the initial conversations with the client there's always the there's always the construction budget like what is your construction cost you have in mind and then a lot of times that's used as a way to give an estimate as to the other fees and on top of that for example The Architects V being between let's say 10 to 15 as a rough average sometimes it's more sometimes it really shouldn't be less than 10% but let's say 10 to 15 you know Engineers are like one to 2% of project cost but from a client's perspective are there other things in the project budget that they should be ey or they should be mindful of that are not just the construction costs the architect the engineer and the designer yeah definitely um in the early phases in even acquisition or say in in concept or schematic design we do a highlevel preliminary development budget and we like to break it down to into soft costs you know those are costs with the from the architect engineer owner's rep Etc hard costs which are general contractor costs site or Landscaping costs which are typically under the GC but we like to to break it out um Furniture FFN and those are kind of the four big buckets right but then there are also miscellaneous owner costs like Builder risk or project insurance and then we always like to add a line for contingency um unforeseen conditions scope changes Etc over the course of the project and escalation Market escalation and so that's kind of how we typically like to build a budget in the early stages of a project right you have limited information so your budget's only as good as your information so we start with a range based on historical data and current project data and as the plan set gets more defined well our budget Gap or range Narrows um that's kind of how the progression of our our budgets work on projects is there a typical um contingency contingency amount that you suggest for projects I know that's a tough one because things uh early on um it's typically 10% we've increased it if there are larger larger risks at play um but that's kind of typical and then you can kind of reduce that as the project gets um more defined gotcha um so then going back to the process so we left off so during SD we're you're getting um ROM a rough order of M udes from contractors uh rough estimates let's say and then uh once we get into DD what is your role when we're in design development yeah totally so it's it's kind of similar to what we said before right so in DD we're collaborating and leading a larger team of design professionals you know to further develop that um SD design um like you said we're obtaining updated pricing and schedule information um and then as we cruise into CDs you know that's kind of finalizing the the design right we're reviewing the final construction documents prepared by the design team um assisting the architect to make sure they're fully coordinated and meeting the client's goals and then um we are assisting with the preparation of the bid package and procurement documents for contractors um then typically in a bidding and contractor selection process you know the O is going to manage that bidding process right we're going to issue the invitations to bid evaluate those bids and do side by-side comparisons make sure things are apples to apples you're looking at them fairly um will then help the team make um the design team and client make an informed decision an informed objetive decision based on the the pricing and the proposed um Team Etc will then help negotiate the GC contract on behalf of the client um at that time too we'll help the client procure um necessary insurance for the project and then we'll coordinate with legal councel to review and finalize that GC contract um kind of the next phase is is typically you know a permitting phase and we're going to work again with the team to ensure the project or the plans comply with you know building codes zoning regulations environmental requirements other permanent criteria and then we'll help coordinate you know the preparation and submission of the permit application let's say that gets approved you know we're cruising into the the construction phase with you know finalized drawings and a GC on board right and in that phase is um when we're kind of overseeing the construction process along side The Architects who's performing CA construction Administration um to ensure that the contractor's work is carried out in accordance to the plan specs and you know the owner and our quality standards right um similar to an architect and O is conducting regular site visits usually coincide with an owner architect contractor meeting or a big pay app to review the work in place we're just there to monitor progress quality um what have you um you know we're actively participating in coordination meetings in that phase as well in addition to the OAC meeting um and in that phase you know we're we're addressing and resolving issues and conflicts and and change orders that arise during construction um I think the gc's will like this you know a big thing that we do in construction is we ensure quick payment to gc's and venders like that's a big thing that the owner holds that can really affect the project if you can pay your people and especially your GC quickly yeah keeping the money flowing you know keeps the interest level high and keeps the GC hungry and engaged to to continue putting work in quickly on your project yeah that's an interesting that's an interesting one because it it reminds me that there is a a lot of times in a project where the professionals let's say The Architects designer uh contractor want to convey information to the client that is just objectively helpful good information but again I find it's not always easy for a client to just take it and just go with it because there's that they're not they're not non-biased as you put it and i' I guess it's B basically reemphasizing that point of being a non-biased third party is just super beneficial because you're really acting as a trusted agent of the client and I feel like they could trust you because why else would you be advocating for this thing it doesn't affect whether or not you make money yep yep well said well said no we're doing that a lot with with the teams during construction you know mainly you know change order management um we all know that that's going to happen um and so we we have a good process in place kind of let everyone understand what that is um and when they come through you know make sure that they have all the sufficient information right here's the original cost um base budget the new base budget why it changed how it changed Etc very clearly laid out um in email form and our goal is to to send it and get an approval right one and done and not have multiple emails back and forth or multiple meetings to discuss things right that doesn't help you know make the process more efficient you know if it's a fair change order we need to process it quickly and efficiently and get on with our work right yeah and that's what we're trying to do is just make the whole process and construction more efficient for all the team members you know including the client are you guys often reviewing pay applications and reviewing the work for that uh with the architect or are you doing it on your own do you find no um you know our preferred process is to um kind of take a majority of that work off the architect's plate we're reviewing for mathematical accuracy correct backup leans excuse me waivers Etc and then reviewing the work in place and then serving it up to the architect and saying hey you know Peak projects has reviewed this um we would also like you to review it as well because typically in AI contracts the architect sometimes signs the pay app as well yeah um but we like to collectively do that together but with Peak doing the majority of the heavy lifting making it easier on an architect nice that that's one specific aspect of the whole process but during construction that I think was much more common for the architect to lead and do on their own but uh and in some ways it makes sense because we want to review the work but in other ways more and more Architects are like really truthfully at the end of the day if I didn't have to do that or do the bulk of the work I'd be happy not having to look into all the stuff you mentioned and just focus on on the I mean there's different types of Architects for sure but you know and it creates also a weird dynamic I think between the architect and the contractor because rather blame the own my work and I mean you know it's just it's just a little bit awkward um going back quickly on the on the cost I mean I think one of the question that uh probably our listeners would have is that how does the the the professional fee of hiring an O works is it a percentage of construction is it is it a fixed fee is it an hourly like what is you know maybe more typical in in in your field oh and then also on top of that what is the typical fee in total if we were to think of it as a percentage of the project cost you got it um yeah we typically tell our clients you know our an O fee can be two to 6% of hard costs and that's depending on at what time in the project we're hired you know the needs of the owner quality of the team and a number of iterations um so that's a we typically kind of say you know holistically you know we're seeing soft costs on a project kind of between 25 and 35% of hard costs and you know R Fe kind of falls into that you know in addition to the architect ID structural Etc um so it really depends on on the projects um on all the aspects of the project that kind of ultimately determines our fee yeah makes sense and we Bild to answer your other part of your question we Bill hourly you know we feel like it's a disalignment of incentives to charge a percentage on the project cost um and so if we're really representing our owner in their best interest we need to Bill hourly yeah yeah I think it goes back to efficiency I mean if the client is efficient in making their decision and you know then you you pay for what you need and no more and no less yeah I mean you know I we have this debate often about hourly versus fix versus percentage um but there is it's a funny thing as as a as when I am Contracting with someone and I'm paying someone else I actually like hourly which sounds nuts because most people don't like hourly right because it's going to bleed on but I just like knowing that if if they were working they're being paid I don't like the idea that I'm underpaying them that's actually my biggest concern I don't like taking advantage of people and also of course and also of course I don't want to overpay necessarily either but I think in your case especially keeping it divorced from the construction costs make sense I me I know some Architects and I think I used to be a thing that was more popular where their fee is based on the a percentage of the hard costs and uh but a lot of Architects say they don't want to do that because of the conflict of interest that creates yeah we we've definitely seen that that shift in the industry where um you know a while back it was always you know 10 15 or whatever percent of hard cost and now we're seeing it hourly you know with a rough estimate based on um a percentage of the project but it's buil hourly yeah yeah there's just um and and to your point the reason why that is it's because it's just hard to know how many iterations are going to take place it'll go as you said for you guys from 2 to 6% from us two to 15 10 to 15% or whatever based on how long we're doing revisions uh and again that goes back to the importance of the first questions that you mentioned of what are your goals for the projects and let's build on this uh kind of pyramid of information instead of just winging it and going with shooting from the hip and going with the first people you find on on Yelp or whatever it was um yes well said uh so during construction uh you guys are Vis visiting the site you talked about that um I guess after construction you know the client moves in are you guys still involved and if so in what capacity typically yeah so um taking a step back at the end of the construction phase right there's the close out or turnover phase um and we're working as you know feverishly with everyone at the end of a project to facilitate you know the completion of construction we're we're commissioning the systems training either the client or the client's team um on how to operate the home um you know there's the review and approval of final project deliverables you know your as built drawings operation manuals warranty um excuse me we're working with vendors to create a digital and tangible um manual for the client um so they can reference you know information about the project quickly um obviously we're working with you um and the GC to ensure all the punch list items are addressed and resolve to our client satisfaction um and that's kind of like the closeout phase the project and making sure you know everything's perfect arts on the wall everything's dialed so they can move in and start operating it um or using it as as they wish right and then we're also ensuring that all the proper maintenance contracts and Service uh items that need to happen after move in because once a project is done it's it's it's really not done and that's like a common misconception some clients have right like when you invest 10 203 $100 million into a home like there's a significant ongoing effort that takes place to maintain that asset so it looks and operates like it does um when you know the Architects and O approve the project right yeah and so we're um helping with that we did last year start um an estate management Division and so we have folks in New York San Francisco and La that are actually helping clients post construction um a fractional basis you know manage um maintenance and operations of the home kind of in perpetuity yeah that makes sense sense I mean it's like you buy a nice car you know you need to get a check once in a while change the oil change the filters I mean you know if you want to keep it nice that is something that most people underestimate or they completely forget about and and I think also in terms of cost right like you have to factor those maintenance cost over time too as part of the probably the total project cost definitely yeah you definitely should the man go and also this is funny I was talking with someone recently in the um there's a client who completed a a new large house very expensive and that was a result of they recently you know became very wealthy kind of overnight so to speak tech tech money and they did not realize the utility bill was going to be so much per month and um The Professional team was like well yeah you're not living in a studio apartment anymore like this is a giant house like if you run the water and the electricity it's going to be a lot more than the 200 bucks you were paying a month beforehand um and most of the remind me though that a lot of the contractors that that we've spoken with and we know they also have dedicated call them like maintenance teams or sometimes they're called special division teams that do maintenance and also projects small projects for repeat clients or for new ones in odd odd situations yeah we work with a lot of those teams our Estate Management division will oversee or work with those teams on clients projects um you know to help ensures success nice the there was another thing you said early on um a few times which I thought was interesting is helping clients compare apples to apples when they're considering contractors or Architects and I want to pick up on that because one of the one of the things that is really challenging about the single family the residential construction space is that a lot of contractors practice very differently from other contractors and Architects practice very differently and the scope of services they provide is sometimes radically different from another architect and so what we see from our side is that we are oftentimes having to explain to clients and tell them like make sure you are comparing Apple to Apples like understand if a contractor if you bidd it out to three contractors you have one that's high middle and low and let's say the low one is significantly lower it's for a reason and it's not just because they're a bad person or they don't do good work it's probably because quantifiably they're leaving out work the same thing with an architect to be honest yeah well said um so we're we're big on making information um clearly digestible is so you can make actionable decisions based on it quickly right because our clients have limited time right so we need to present things like they get presented in the boardroom right um and so we're we're big on you know clear um and effective communication um so we we do well in that I think going to the contractor question you know I think oftentimes people pick contractors just based on cost right which is just like one tiny element in the responsible decision-making process right like the way we help clients pick um or select contractors is is through a pretty detailed um RFQ process you know request for qualifications we want to understand everything about them right um we want to check their credentials um their experience on similar projects their their um organizational and management structure their financial stability we want to review portfolios and past projects we're calling and checking references um we're considering their communication and collaboration style we're reviewing their deliverables you know I want to see how how dialed their meeting minutes are what their schedules look like what their different budget formats are RFI submitt process mockup requests Etc right um we're big on evaluating the proposed project team right we want to ask for resumés of who's going to be on your project like oftentimes it's the owner selling the project but you don't know who the PM super PE Foreman Etc are going to be like you need to know that before signing a contract with a contractor um then going to the financial part right understanding their contract terms like what are their hourly rates their fee percentage their division one how are they going to manage the project like I that's an important thing to look at when you're trying to figure out who's going to be more expensive than the because at the highend residential level gc's are a lot of the time are using the same Subs right so it's about how they themselves are going to manage the project and that's what you know clients need to need to really determine and hone in on um clients you know should also visit ongoing projects right walk up is the site clean organized are there Subs on site is it like a well oiled thing like you got to see it to believe it um I think where Architects can play a big role as well as us is you know you can ask about their preferred subcontractors good Architects know good subcontractors right and so like if they're talking the same language if they know the same people you do that's a good sign um going down the list you know we got to check warranties and post construction support like those are big things like when when if and when stuff goes wrong how does that work and how do they deal with it um and a question I really like to ask is like understand how they would creatively manage your project like not all projects are the same right like some projects have multiple access points increased laydown area um this and that each project has like unique uh optionality to be creative with from a contractor's perspective right um and and good contractors are creative um yeah and I think you know like last but not least personality alignment like do you get a good vibe from them they share similar values you know like I said before can you spend two three four five years with this team you know those are like yeah some of the many things that you know you got to look at When selecting um anyone on your team yeah yeah and what's funny about that is you see know it's some of the many things but for most folks most clients that's an already an overwhelming list of things uh for sure that's that's the case and I can see where having a person who's going to do that on their behalf who they trust trust has to start somewhere is very beneficial because especially a lot of folks who have a a lot of money um they're busy they don't have the time or sometimes the interest at all to be running around and doing all this research and they I like what you said earlier too about um something like distilling information so it's it's concise so that the client can actually make a an informed decision but not have to spend like you know a month out of their year doing all of all of the work and to be honest that's something that we're always trying to further refin and better because sometimes I feel at the beginning of the project I feel this urge to convey the the whole Bible of information to the client but in reality you can't do that uh because there's not time to do it and so anyway I I think that's an interesting way to frame that particular problem yeah and we um I think I mentioned this before but if if we we do that well and if we do that well with you know collaboration from all the team members um we do believe that leads to like less um less stuff that you guys have to do as well right if we all can get decisions made quickly and approval signed off quickly it's just less email comms traffic that that we all have to deal with so we're if we can communicate things clearly and effectively once that that is good for the client but really good for all of us and the project team yeah for sure I you know it's a funny thing too I think that I think sometimes it's easy for folks to forget that the the architect and the contractor also want things to run as smoothly and as efficiently as possible um in our case throughout the project but I was specifically thinking about design like I have no interest in staying in SD for a year that doesn't interest me I I mean I love desig be a paper architect but I'm not a paper Architects and all of us are trying to get stuff built as if things take long enough already like as efficiently as possible and so it that's so there's actually I think more alignment between the architect contractor and client than maybe people think like I'm not trying to draw out the process I don't want to do that and often times the thing that slows down down the design phase which is the phase where it's the most unpredictable in a sense um I have to say it's the client you know if it take a month to get back to us well that's a month off the schedule uh and if you if that if that has to be the case because they're on vacation or something happened that it's what it is but you know clients basically should recognize that that's the case like we will out produce you I guarantee it we'll be ready for the next meeting and but we'll be waiting for two or three weeks or whatever what whatever it is um I don't know where I was going with that but uh yeah no no I I agree and you you said it well um you said well and that's what I think why a lot of Industry Partners you know really value US is we're holding our clients feet to the fire and helping them make decisions and if they don't informing them the budget and schedule ramifications of not making decisions right right that's one of the key things we manag at the beginning of a project I talked about the macro budget but there's also the macro or Global schedule right that goes from acquisition through design through permitting through construction through turnover right and we're we're working with the team early on to set a realistic design and construction schedule you know I think what we see often is people produce or issue a standard schedule that that might not fit that particular client maybe that's what the architect sees as as as how they want to run it or um but we uh want to give the client you know a feasible reasonable schedule right if we know they travel a lot or they're gone every summer like you got to put that into the design schedule and let's all give ourselves the appropriate breathing room to execute correctly so we don't have to go back to the well and ask for more when we blow the schedule so it's really important to like work collaboratively together in the beginning to establish a realistic budget based on that client yep yep that's well said to yeah go ahead okay I was going to ask so some questions about projects in general so construction costs I know this would be a question that clients would would love to have the answer to is everyone says that construction costs always go up during a project it always ends up being more than what everyone anticipates it to be why is that the case yes good question um I think construction projects at least in the last couple years years have have just been been going up um in general I also think more directly to your question I think there hasn't always been great budgeting early on or throughout the entire process but why it always goes up I think is especially in today's age people are fast tracking projects right they're starting projects with not complete information and so they're allow or placeholders in a budget and those get reconciled as the scope gets defined and the project gets bought out um you know it's it's been a while since I've done a project where you've had 100% CDs priced it and then started construction right you're getting that permit approval issuing a permit set and then going into construction but you only have like you know 25% CD pricing at that time there still a lot of unknowns like I said and so the reason budgets get blown is because the design continues to iterate and um throughout the construction process and I think that kind of leads to to budget overages um Etc because if you design through the construction process you always are kind of enhancing it clients typically choose higher end products than what the Baseline budget was uh accommodating and all that stuff kind of leads to to budget overages on projects these days especially in the highend residential world yeah yeah that's well said and it's something also that it's surprising to me how many people don't know that a permit drawing set is not a construction document set they are not in our in our space they're not even close to being the same but most folks they are identical and I'm like no they are not I'm sorry they are not there's a lot more information that needs to happen yeah um yes well said so I'm sure you worked on a lot of very complex project but is there one that kind of stands out as you know maybe like one that is just very challenging or very exciting or just one that kind of like stands out from all of the ones you've worked on um if you can share information because I know there yeah it's hard to pick one um we actually have a few right now that are under NDA but are very ambitious um we have an extremely large Ranch project at a very high elevation in Colorado um it's logistically challenging just to get people to the site much less quality labor and high-end materials to the actual site much less the build site which is at 10,000 plus feet in elevation wow um so that logistically is going to be super challenging but super fun to figure out we have a great team on that so I'm excited for that one but um that one's you know very different um another one we have a really cool complicated Penthouse project in New York um similar challenging access but um not the same as a large Colorado Ranch you know like limited elevator access and geometry you know within the peak of the structure and so that one's going to be really cool from um you know an urban project perspective um and then I alluded to it earlier you know this this really large project in Florida you know in Florida there's weather yeah hurricane rated products um we're utilizing super large unique windows and a lot of stone um and and that design is just going to be really complex to execute with all the constraints in Florida um at the speed that the client wants to do it in but it SS for the first two maybe you need to partner with some Helicopter Company you know yes um some elevator companies for that Colorado or some um helicopter companies for that Colorado project yeah the subs will have to be like Supreme athletes to work in those kind of conditions oygen masks to construct this it take a while to acclimate take a while to acclimate for sure like in cases like this do you like have to kind of like talk to the locals to try and find if there is like I don't know like maybe like local people that would be best suited for that or strategies on how to bring stuff up there like how do you brainstorm solutions for those types of challenges definitely um let leverage the team right hire hire the best and brightest and leverage them um on that Colorado project you know we have an amazing architect and general contractor and you know in in the coordination meetings we're kind of laying out all the challenges and and seeing what people have to offer and and leveraging a lot of experience um our our regional principal in the Mountain West you know has a ton of experience and his personal experiences is very leveraged on on that project to help um you know and those in those projects you know we try to leverage as much local um Talent as we can um that can meet the project goals and the the design parameters but when we can't then we leverage outside resources and have to transport them in to accomplish the project yeah so we're going to ask the fun question I'm going to go back to asking the the questions so what would be your advice for a client who's going to embark on a project but they want to as best as they can control the construction costs I mean I don't I don't want to use the word control as in control but but control it to a degree and also the schedule and not have them get blown up yes yes good question um advice for a client you know I think again I'm going to I'm like beating a dead horse but you got to establish the goals and objectives of the project and you got to talk about budget and schedule early and and Define um your appetite for those um you need to fully design the project um and then not change your mind during construction I think if you fully design the project and those that that project is well priced um well pre-planned for you know you will have limited budget and schedule issues during construction but when you change um the scope um during construction that leads to to budget and schedule changes yeah yeah I mean it's like a ripple effect right you change this one thing on the design drawing then all of the Consultants the timeline everything just gets impacted yeah and the GC is then focusing on that change instead of putting the predetermined work in place yeah right yeah we also see a similar issue when construction starts based on a very loose uh incomplete set of construction documents and it's so common and I think it's because everyone wants to move quickly and the misconception that uh clients have is that to have a project go quicker and be completed quicker is to start sooner start construction sooner and from the outside I can understand why someone would think that but from The Insider perspective that's not the case there was a there was a phrase you used earlier on in the conversation which was uh mitigating something mitigating mistakes mitigating something and I like that because I find that the key to project success um all around but if we're talking about budget and schedule specifically is to just do a little bit of work spend some money money and time now to save huge during construction um you know folks are always so eager to start demolition to start paring foundations and it's maybe it sounds counterintuitive but holding out for that extra couple of months or whatever period of time to have a full design and then therefore have accurate pricing at an accurate schedule it just makes it better and also by the way it's way less stressful for everybody including the client I might add you know yeah definitely definitely that's that's the way to do it if you can but um as you guys know it's hard to get clients to accept that um another thing I was wondering is what do you think of the business model design build and maybe that's kind of a tricky question for you because you work with both sides separately so I don't know if you've ever uh work on Project what it's one entity doing both and I'm sure that that was probably very interesting but what is yeah what are your thoughts on design build um you know design build for the for the listeners it's um kind of like you said it's a project delivery method where a single entity is responsible for both the design and construction phases I think it's more commonly used in commercial buildings infrastructure projects you know large residential developments um it's not as common in highend private residential uh in that space yeah um I think generally the deficiencies are like a single point of responsibility um you get early collaboration with them being one and the same and I think they speak to kind of efficiencies and Time Savings um but I think uh you know high-end residential projects demand such a high level of architectural expertise and creativity and that's usually found in Standalone architecture firms and not design build firms um I will say marmal Rader is the is one of the only firms I'm aware that does design build well at the ultra high-end level yeah y yeah we uh that's interesting to hear your your thoughts on that because we see the same things broadly speaking um it's just and there's a distinction also a lot of the design buil companies or how do I put this I think a design buil company that is founded and led by a builder is typically very different from a designbuilt company that was founded and led by architect like marel red xener they do great work um and they're both Architects they both went to to calp my school in fact before my time obviously but and and that there's of course and any person who has a business knows this it's the person or people at the top that it trickles down to everything else and everything they do um and so generally I find that when a designu company is led by a contractor um the design Excellence is not at the level that you're describing I'm not hating on them I'm not saying they can't do good work but it's just not quite the same yeah no that that definitely tracks yeah go ahead I was I was wondering you know we might have listeners architects who are thinking hey you know what maybe being an owner's rep sounds really good are you going to ask him if they're looking to hire well I mean sure no no but I was wondering is there like your your your path toward what you're doing today you kind of went through you know a deviated path maybe or maybe there is no direct path but I was wondering if now in you know 2024 is there like a specific training that uh people can get in school to become uh um an owner's rep or is it more of this kind of like loose fluid path that one would end up depending on you know opportunities and experience and and who who would be on paper like a good profile to perform as a good owner's rep yeah um I think in the past it's been a little more fluid I think um I think it's getting a little bit more straightforward to to become an owner's rep um it's you know not a requirement but but definitely helpful to have you know an educational background in architecture construction management or engineering um you definitely um at least to get hired at Peak you need have architecture construction or project management experience um ideally in the high-end residential space I think folks with hospitality and Commercial experience Can Can Do Well if they have the right personality and EQ um you know good owners reps need excellent communication skills they need to know how to negotiate um have strong risk management skills obviously super strong budgeting and financial management skills um schedule management skills proficiency with technology um those are all you know things that that really are needed to be a good owner rep um but the best you know have have experience um in that area that they're that they're o in per se um I think it's just really important to have experience um be kind and respectful and and again have that high EQ because at the end of the day you're you're there to kind of lead and Shepherd the project along and you got to be able to work with all different types of people read the room um and be able to move things forward for everyone yeah that's a lot of different qualities to a person but but the experience part is interesting because I think it could be easy for folks to feel like well if I'm a kind person and if I'm you know empathetic and I know how to read a room and I'm also driven then that's enough for me to be my own on my own uh being an owner's rep successfully and I think to your point those qualities are necessary but I just have a hard time envisioning that individual I described being successful if they don't have any actual knowledge and experience in architecture or constru I just don't see it happening yeah no really agree that you have to understand um how things are built and and the process behind it right you have to understand the different phases of design the players involved um you know basic pitfalls of of all projects project management Theory um and and construction how things get get built right um you know on our team we have folks from like myself the family office world who were very involved in every aspect of projects you know we have licensed gc's and architect on staff that you know these Architects have designed projects prior coming from Fe to Peak have have executed CA um you know contractors have been involved in precon and construction um you know we do have a couple engineers and you know ex sustainability Consultants who have had exposure and experience with all processes and phases and stages of construction projects and like you said you really need that um that real real experience and understanding of of the work to be able to advise effectively on it my last question uh from a client's perspective ER or a question that would be helpful for the clients and you maybe already covered it but what would be like the three most important pieces of information or advice you would give to a client who's embarking on a new project and they assuming they don't have experience in any of this yeah um invest time in comprehensive project planning right set set project goals and budgets Define the why of the project like like you said really build the business plan of the project um secondly uh talk budget and schedule early and often like Define a budget and schedule even if you're okay if that modulates right you got to have um a Baseline and then track it as it goes up or goes down um so there's a a history of it um and a log on on on how and why it it changed right and then you know last but not least you got to build an experienced High performing team so invest time in Project planning talk budget and schedule I a great team yeah awesome um another question which we didn't cover but would be useful is what types of projects or clients would require an owner's representative because I know obviously how you guys operate at the high tier and also the extremely extremely high tier and people might be wondering well do I need to be spending $20 million in order to have an owner's rep is is it only that tier of project that requires this um layer of oversight that an owner rep provides got it um no I think you know any any type of project type could could require an owner's rep commercial Health Care cultural Hospitality historical iron residential I think any any client who's embarking on a complex project wants professional um third party management MH um appreciates you know saving time um and wants the project to be you know delivered in in in a textbook worldclass way right so I think there's all types of projects that can require an owner's rep and a client um who values those things like I said um would make a great fit for an owner's rep yeah I like that point I like the point because it's not just about the project itself it's really about the the client who they are if they' like things to be run a certain way then it could be beneficial even if it's a small size project definitely you guys have been um you know working in many different state like you mentioned and you have also projects oversea is there desire to grow oversea more um is there is it common even in other countries to have owner rep or is it more of a US type of profession first yeah I would love um ever since I started Peak I I've always wanted to just help um different types of people um and so we've been fortunate enough to help a lot of people on a lot of cool projects you know in all the places I mentioned um it would be amazing to to help uh in in Europe um on projects so we would love to um to to to open an office there and and start work there um and then from there kind of see where where that takes us but I really think that there's an endless opportunity for for clients we could help given what we do all around the world um in terms of of um where where it exists and where it doesn't you know I think um I'm GNA I'm going to guess that you know on the west coast maybe 20% of projects have an owner's rep as you move East that number increases yeah um I've talked with a lot of family office folks um and this and that and I think they attribute that to just governance of wealth right the the governance level that clients uh take um out east is just higher than that out west um again could be a generalization but it's typically older money um and they just kind of protect and manage their money A little bit more thoroughly than than new money right in London it's just a known thing you hire a project manager before you hire anyone like no questions asked really right so um you know as you Trend to um you know older older places know the the governance goes up and so does the existence of owners reps so you just have to keep going east it sounds like that might be the plan eventually you come back around I mean speaking from our you know our experience in New York City that it makes sense I mean who knows with these kinds of these kinds of things but it that that seems to track based on what we've seen and experience as well um I want to know what is the most what is the most challenging part of your job as maybe not so much as a business owner or or that as well but but as an owner's rep like what's the most difficult thing the most frustrating thing I think with our teams right now um is just like opaque and um uh opaque bilding departments you know limited information right I know it's pretty specific but um we like to Foster this open collaborative environment you know we expect all of our partners to collaborate back in the same manner um which everyone usually does um sometimes except for them yep yep they're the brick wall I feel like that's the next person we need to get on the show is like a plan Shaker you know the people who actually approve drawings I think we we just if you know one AF I know know I do know some um and I was going to say I don't like to we always Peak uh myself like to bring solutions to so even though that's a problem we mitigate that problem by good land use attorneys um who specialize in entitlements or permit or entitlement Consultants so um we have relationships with lots of those folks and lots of different areas to yeah to try to help mitigate permanent risks yeah yeah and I I feel like another specific role and kind of part of the overall project that is becoming more becoming worse but also as a result has produced a Reliance on specific professionals that you mention to solve those problems it's it's interesting to see how how many more professionals are hired now like specifically for certain things to solve certain things but yeah the building departments um I should have known that was going the answer I mean you ask any architect contractors that that's the answer yeah we just we just talked about it yesterday because you even sometimes look for information you cannot find the legal information you need in order to you really do need someone who is just basically buddy buddy and that's all they do yeah yeah who've done it before know the people yep yep exactly exactly uh the final question that of course we always ask is what is your favorite building um that's awesome thank you um again it's hard man there's so many um is it cool if I give you a couple yeah yeah let's they don't have to be projects you've done they can be non-biased projects awesome awesome cool um I you know a classic I like the Pierre by olssen kundig that's a great one it's in this amazing Cove on Lopez Island up in the San Juans um kind of nestled into the landscape into this rock um there's great photos of it online if folks want to check it out that's that's a good one um my wife is from Seattle and so I've spent time in the San Juans and have seen it um and and just love that area of the world and that's a that's just a beautiful place um we're actually doing a really cool project out west with Walker Warner um that upon completion you know will be up there with one of my favorites you know it's amazing program the detailing is awesome um beautiful concrete work um and the ski and ski out access doesn't hurt either um you know I'm I'm biased to that um another cool one I really like is uh the madori house in New Zealand um it was by Fon hay a really cool firm out of out of New Zealand um it sits at the base of this this mountain range like the edge of a lake um again it's integrated into the landscape super well there's like these interesting masonry massing um it has local engineered Timber and it has this really cool Tusk rounded green roof um you got to check it out that's a good one um looking at it right now it's pretty cool yeah am um let's see last but not least um one of the coolest places I've ever been it's this uh it's this place called the Refugio Frey Hut it's an offgrid Backcountry Hut in baral loce Argentina it's um not by a famous architech but it's it's made of granite wood paneling a tiled roof uh it gets filtered water from a lake nearby powered from a turban um it can sleep like 30 people it's mainly used in the summer by rock climbers okay um but I actually went back in 2011 with a group of Back Country skiers and snowboarders um it's nothing fancy but it's a super cool place and I have like such great memories so I'll end it with that that's awesome I like that so you said two you gave us four that's a great Spectrum I love it uh Grant thanks so much for making the time to be on here uh I think this was very interesting for sure and I know it's going to be helpful for a lot of people no it was great to talk to you both thanks for the time hi everyone thanks for watching this video on YouTube if you like what we're doing then please support our show by hitting that subscribe button you can also find us on most of the social media Facebook Twitter and Instagram stagram we're mostly on Instagram and you can reach out to the hotline 21 3 213 222 6950 you can send a text message or leave a voicemail if you have any reaction to this recording any questions you might have or guest suggestion feel free to send it our way cool thank you for watching and see you next week thanks bye bye