Our current PR is to orbit our culture and privacy, to convince the world that the world is not the Atlantic. It's not just just the United States, it's not just Western Europe. the Javanese mindset at that time.
And of course, Dipo Nogoro. Dashaat, don't be mistaken, nature guarantees one reality for the Javanese. Let's go back to Dipo Nogoro. 1830, he was a thug. Thug.
If he really had the sixth sense, why did he want to meet? Thug. It's a paradox of history. You lose, but ultimately you win.
History is not a luxury, it's a DNA bangsa. This is what makes you. The people of Orasare, they're alive, they're well, they're kicking, they're watching. We hope that you will write history from the roots, not from the colonial vision. Hello friends, it doesn't feel like it's been almost 4 years since we started our mission to give a stage to national narrators.
I'm happy to see how the endgame has evolved, which at first was only discussing episode by episode, but this is already a community. Where ideas that are needed for the future can be discussed, discussed and discussed. We are quite proud of the Endgame team because of the evolution and for those who haven't heard it yet, we will do a new experiment called the Endgame Town Hall where you can learn directly and more deeply from a great narrator. Don't forget to come on September 14, 2024 in Jakarta. Check the event details and tickets at endgametownhall.com Hello friends, today we have a guest, Peter Carey.
He is a historian and also an Indonesian who has long stayed in Indonesia. Peter, thank you very much. Thank you for the invitation, which is very special for me.
Amazing, this is a chance and a respect. I want to ask, you were born in what was called Burma, in Ranggun. Myanmar. Then tell us. perjalanan hidup Anda sampai bisa nyangkut di Indonesia?
Ya, sebenarnya orang tua saya adalah petualang. Ibu saya lahir di Shanghai, generasi ketiga dari orang bule yang bermukim di Shanghai, di International Settlement. Dan ayah saya lahir di Liverpool.
Waktu dia 20... One year, he was asked to go to Yangon, during the Rangoon period, to open a branch of import-export. Because Burma at that time became one of the largest rice exports in the world, more than 2.8 million tons per year.
So she lived there and her mother was also there. But there was a gap between the war and the international world that made them meet during the war. In 1943, they got married.
When my mother lost her first husband, who became the head of the intel section. kedua di Hong Kong dan dibunuh Jepang. Dan ayah saya dalam hitungan enam minggu, semua dunia kolonial di Burma, di... was attacked by the Japanese. And he had to walk 750km from Yananjiang to Mila in Bangladesh to save his life.
He was hit by severe tropical malaria and was sent to Quetta to join the staff college there, like the commando staff in Bandung. And his mother was killed by the Japanese. Then you can travel around Buana, get interested in history, then move to Oxford, then to Cornell, then back to Oxford. How was that journey?
Yes, I actually don't really care about Asian history. And when I was studying in England, in Winchester, and preparing for school in Temple Grove, I was thinking about the history of the world. Burton and Speak in Africa or in the empty city.
But when I was the last test as an S1 in Oxford, I was not ranked 1 and not ranked 2, and I was preparing for the Lisan test. And when preparing for the Lisan test, there was a good friend of mine, my professor, Richard Cobb. named Jack Gallagher, who joined us at Lone in Balliol. And he said, Bung, I will not reveal the secret, but if Bung can convince us tomorrow with the Lisan test, you can reach the first ranking. And with the first ranking, automatically there is one...
peasiswa dari pemerintah SSRC Grant, dan kalau dengan SSRC Grant, akan memilih apa sebagai judul penelitian? Dan saya bilang itu gampang bagi saya sebab, ya, saya sudah dikirim sering ke Prancis dan saya gapia di Grenoble, jadi saya cukup fasi bahasa Prancis dan saya akan memilih salah satu wilayah dari Hexagon di Prancis. to create a local history of the impact of the French Revolution on the local community. And he said, don't, this is too solid. But if you are interested in the time of the French Revolution, let's take the Java island.
Because the Java island was affected because Napoleon chose one of the... Marskalk, namanya Dantos, untuk datang ke sini untuk menjadi salah satu sapu bersih dari VOC dan meletakkan fondasi dan letakkan tiang-tiang untuk salah satu negara baru, negara kolonial baru. Jadi dengan... Ide dari Daendels dan ide dari Pulau Jawa, saya injak kaki di Cornell dengan ESU, English Speaking Union Scholarship, untuk mendukung saya sebagai graduate student.
Dan di sana, di Cornell, mereka bilang ini bukan bidang kita colonial history, jadi Anda belajar lebih dulu bahasa Indonesia, bahasa Jawa, dan bahasa Belanda untuk membuka aset-aset dari RCEP. And if it's still titled, we will appreciate it because it means from the roots, not from the ship's ship or from the balcony of one of the VOC offices. But we hope that you will write history from the roots, not from the colonial vision. Thank you very much.
my knowledge in Dutch, and that's a lot. Unlike Oppenheimer who can in six weeks master Dutch to make a show. That's what we saw in the film yesterday. Yes, in the live.
And I borrowed a book from my professor, Ben Anderson, Gesindes van Indonesië van de Graaf, and then... In the beginning, one page, in the end, one chapter per day. And when I went to the chapter about the war in Ponegoro, the Javanese war, there was a lithograph from the son-in-law of the Dekok, the Dostoyevsky, which told the story of Ponegoro entering into a war in... the island of Calipro, Metese, with its 700 troops fighting. And there was a kind of mental contact at that time.
I saw Tiponogoro on the top of the hill. I couldn't see his face clearly, but there was a kind of mental contact. And I said, I will take this as a transitive figure from the Dandels.
Amazing. Let's go back a little. You met a ship called Jakarta Lloyd on Staten Island. And you always illustrate your experience on the ship for about three months. Like in Taman Mini Indonesia, before arriving near Sumatra at that time.
Yes, it was a coincidence. Go ahead. Yes, it was actually a coincidence that I went to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. I went to Mardi Gras on February 14, 1970. And I...
berlibur pergi ke Mississippi untuk lihat suasana di Darmaga dan saya lihat banyak kapal dayung dan di sana ada satu areal dari Darmaga khusus untuk Jakarta Lloyd. Jadi ada dengan huruf besar sekali, ini adalah the mooring place for Jakarta Lloyd. Dan ini seperti Lord Jim Conrad, membri saya inspirasi saya sudah empat. years of recording seminars and conferences and lectures and receptions and conferences.
This is the time to find Indonesia in reality, not from imagination, not from books. And I return to Cornell. I met my professor, the head of my faculty, George Kane, and he said, This is a coincidence, I studied in Georgia during the second grade of high school, and my teacher is Imam Pamujo. And he is an agent from Jakarta Lloyd in New York. So please, I will bail, like we will bail directly to the president of Jakarta Lloyd.
And he did one interview for me with Mr. Pemujo, with his wife, an American, in a pretty good apartment. Scenario di atas Hudson River. Dan ya, kita ada sepakat. Saya akan naik kapal Jakarta Lloyd, Samaratulangi, yang dibuat oleh Kristjof untuk Bung Karno di Danzig pada tahun 1962. Dan ini satu kesempatan yang sangat langka dan sangat bagus sekali.
Sebab ada laut lepas dan ada kapal. Di atas kapal dari Nahoda sampai ke Klasi. All the Indonesians from all kinds of people.
Nakoda, Minakabau, Obsir Perwira 1 is from Ambon, Kepala Mesin, Jawa, and I can combine with everyone. So this is like floating in mini-Indonesia. And every day I have to adjust to the food.
I eat with Taruna. And I was also involved in washing machines and re-sharing from holes and taking everything that was missing from iron. And yeah, in six weeks, that's one, because we flew from New York to Senegal, Dakar. From Dakar, we have to go through Cape of Good Hope.
Then we bring 7,000 tons of gandum for Saudi. So we stay in Jeddah for two weeks. And from Jeddah, we go through Djibouti to Engano. From Engano, we receive telex from Jakarta Lloyd in Jakarta. Jangan kalt.
Priok, tapi langsung ke Sumatra Timur untuk ambil karet. Jadi kita dialikan dari Jakarta ke Pelembang, Indragiri, Jambi. Menarik sekali. Jadi ini satu kesempatan yang sangat langka sekali.
Saya pergi to America, to board a ship, I came back from America to board a ship. And we can see and there can be an atmosphere from a distance, an atmosphere from the 17th, 18th century, when we had to sail through Indonesia, not by plane but by ship. And one of the things, it's like an introduction. to the Yavan Sasamandlaving, Javanese community living.
And also there's some kind of gossip too. It's not smooth because I'm very stingy and on board I eat a lot of something made with Javanese sugar and peanuts. Usus buntu.
Usus buntu saya pecah di tengah-tengah kalimusi. Jadi seperti, it's like Demeter and Persephone. Kita membawa 7 ribu ton gandum ke Saudi.
Tapi saya juga harus turun ke dunia dari King Hades selama 6 minggu di Palembang. when he was operated on, but he had acute peritonitis, so he almost had to die to come to Indonesia. And I have a very good friend who waits for me in Priok.
When I didn't show up in Priok, he took me to the airport and looked at me at the Caritas Hospital there. And every day, I looked worse and greener on my face. full of dirt from, yeah, I'm in a very bad situation.
And he, with very precise and very precise, he used the class system to suppress. Our chief deputy, Haynesworth, to get permission from Changi, who at that time was still RAF based in Singapore, they could send one of the planes to Talang Betutu in Palembang so that I could be saved and brought to Singapore. So there was Malaykat and also there was...
Hades, and there are many, many. So, yeah, it's like what the Rolling Stones say, you know, life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans. Hidup adalah yang Anda mengalami. You can't always get what you want.
Terus tiba di Jakarta, terus Anda naik kereta api senja ke Jogja, terus langsung ke Malioboro. It's like there's a call. Yes, that was the first time in my life I visited Jogja. I didn't know many people. I took the main bus that arrived at the Jogja station before Maghrib.
And I went to the Maliaboro street and happened to take one of the hotels. Jasmine or Lozman, a little girl. I went in and went into the bathroom. And outside the bathroom, one of my friends from Jakarta came in who was managing one of the gizi programs in Gunung Kidul to raise gizi for children.
And he said, let's go, Peter, we're going to watch Wayang Wong. And I said, and... Yeah, Wang Wonton Pundi, and he said, I have no idea where it is. We've got to go by Becak. And we went up Becak.
Hopefully two Becak, not just one Becak, because poor Becak with two fat and big bulls. And we went about three kilometers with Becak through Jalan Sleman. to the area of the West Coast of Georgia at that time, surrounded by a boat and there were bells on the boat and so on. And in the end, we entered into a field where the Wayang Wong was being deployed.
That was a camp, a camp made by General Serono from the Bonagoro Division. total baru. Tapi saya sadar waktu saya masuk ke dalam pelataran itu bahwa ini adalah puing-puing dari Tegar Rejo, adalah kediaman dari Diponegoro.
Jadi hitungan jam sejak saya injak kaki di Jogja seperti saya dipanggil untuk sewan. Dan itu bukan sesuatu yang cukup elok, tidak mengancam, tidak ada penampilan atau wangsit yang... terror, but something that is pleasant, like I went to the state and was given one of the blessings in the beginning. Can you give an illustration?
You have illustrated several times that the period during the decades that were passed by Raden Mas, Onto Wirjo, or Diponegoro, was affected by the tsunami, the world's events. Which may have started with the French Revolution in 1795, then Napoleon's rise in 1799, he became king in 1804. But maybe illustrate how the influence of the conflict between the two great powers of France. and the Netherlands, even the third one, namely the UK.
How did those powers influence the early 19th century in Indonesia? Yes, actually for me as a historian, this is the First World War. The Napoleonic War, the Revolutionary War, was the first global war for the Western world.
Francis... cut off the neck of their king in January 1793. And in the same month, England declared war on Britain. And republic became one of the real threats for England because all the sentiments from the people and the English constitution were based on one of the banking and one of the monarchy and so on.
And all of that was destroyed, assuming that we would fall and France could conquer England. So this was one of the war ideologies. an ideological war.
War without us sending expeditions to Argentina, we sent expeditions to Syria and Egypt. Also the Indian Ocean became one of the centers of war because we had to defend the waters to be able to defend India. And India was one of the tanks in the Indian Ocean for us, 250,000 SPOI troops that we can use in all areas. And if that is frozen by French military assets, it can be fatal. Lord Minto was ordered by the British government to occupy the islands in French hands at the time.
So the islands of Bourbon, Mauritius and Java in the Indian Ocean. And every island, 1809 for Bourbon, 1810 for Mauritius and 1811 for Java, He wanted to join an army. He was not a military man.
He was a politician. He was a Governor General of India. One of the duties, or Governor General of Bengal at the time, that's the nickname. And he spent nine months, from three years or four years as Governor General, to go on an expedition to Java. And we have to ask, why?
Why did he take the time to come here? Yes, this is something that is important for the British. Something that, from the decision of Minto himself, he ignored instructions from the government and from the Indian government at EIC, but what... Pulau Jawa ditaklukkan, lantas tarik semua pasukan. Dia bilang itu tidak manusiawi.
Sesudah ditaklukkan, kita harus ada semacam administrasi. Dan administrasi adalah sesuatu yang expensive. How can I get a cheap administration? Dan dia ambil kartu truf. Dia adalah, dia seorang Freemason.
Mason bebas. Dan dia pikir. If we hand over all the Franco-French military assets in six weeks, already game, set, and match, then we will unite the big families, the Cronsons, the Muntingies, the Van Brams, so that they can join us. The most popular rope is the rope from Mason Bebas, because they are Mason Bebas and we in India have brother lodges.
And what Minter did was that he put raffles, at the time he was still very young, in the environment of Mason Bebas and under the supervision of Nicholas Englehart, who had one of the riots. Hebat skali di cililitan, dia masuk di dalam the Freemasons. Dan itu menjadi salah satu tali, salah satu, mancaminkan, this is international. Mungkin sekarang kita adalah lulusan Oxford atau Harvard, adalah salah satu.
gabung yang khusus. But this is the First World War. Java is in the First World War.
Dua pertanyaan. Apa yang menurut Anda yang secara struktural membedakan perlakuan atau sikap Inggris terhadap Jawa dibandingkan apa yang dilakukan oleh Dandles dari 2008 sampai 2011? Mulai dari tahun 2011. Dan kedua, apa...
Is it true that from the beginning, raffles or raffles, the fascination is indeed with the Java Sea from a young age? Yes, actually it is, it is rising from zero. It becomes a paintbrush at East India Company House with a salary of about 90 pounds per year.
Maybe 20 million per year. And he came from scratch, but he was very smart. There were no Xerox machines, no photocopies. He became a photocopy maker.
Because he had to make a selection from all the reports, from Deshima to Mocha to... Coromandel, to all the assets from East India Company. And because he had photographic memory, all the documents he published, he could have a retention. Like Einstein at the patent office.
He's like a patent office. Or Benjamin Franklin at the Boston Museum at the time. Yes.
Amazing. And he could be multitasking. He could be doing this.
At the same time, he was dictating the Bhagavad Gita to his writer, and at the same time dictating a letter to Lord Minto, a dispatch. So he was a multi... He had a lot of experience. He was also a person who...
He was a social climber. He was a person who wanted to improve himself, and he had one of those... cara yang sangat jeli untuk merangkul orang-orang yang jauh lebih, kedudukan masyarakat jauh lebih tinggi, seperti Lord Mintel. Tanpa, he didn't patronize them, dia tidak, ya, tidak ketelaluan, tidak orang yang asal bapak senang atau orang kaya baru. Alamiah sekali.
Dia cukup alamiah, dan seperti, idea from Mintos himself, even though it came from Raffles. And he could arrange everything from Malacca and Penang to send letters to all the high-ranking officials and all the kings of the international community, from Palembang to Bonne and Bali. Yes, he's a political agent for the government. And he learns the customs, how to persuade people to work with the British.
Because even though we send a team that is quite meaningful, 12,000 teams, almost all of the military assets must be directly withdrawn from Java and took care of the military assets. in other war zones, or in Egypt or in Europe itself. So he had to work hard to create one of the systems where people were isolated here. So he had some local leaders, like Suria de Mongolo in Torboyo, a Bustaman family that was very Arab-Java-like. The Apu Nia Paku Nata Negara di Sumanep, Sultan Abdul Rahman yang menjadi penasihat dan kerjasama dengan Raffles untuk History of Java.
Dia punya pangeran Nota Kusumo yang kelak akan diangkat Inggris sebagai Paku Alam. Jadi dia bisa dengan jeli tahu bahwa budaya adalah salah satu kunci. untuk bisa membuka hati dari orang lokal. Dan kita bisa lihat, sebenarnya kita pakai sekarang bahasa Indonesia, tapi pada waktu itu bahasa Jawa. Dan kalau John Crawford, resident, dia bisa menguasai bahasa Jawa Kromoingil di dalam enam bulan, dan Kromoingil menjadi salah satu paspartu bagi dia.
to perform his duties as a resident. He could speak directly to the Dipponogoro Paro-Atutu and his father, Sultan Ketiga. All negotiations.
And if we look at the Dipponogoro family, it was very large. And the medium which joined those was Javanese. He had a private doctor, an Indian, a Sepoy.
from Bengal. He has a favorite family member from the Chinese family, Joyo Kusumo, whose mother is Masayu Sumersanawati, a Chinese person, a favorite from Hamagamono II. He has a house guest, Alansari, from Jeddah, one of the Arab families, Saudagar.
And he has a friend, that every day meets John Crawford, a Calvinist from Edinburgh. So, in this one world of the majority, it's not in a box. This is China, this is Pakodjan, this is the area of our tribe in Tamansari.
It was a very large world and the glue which bound that together was the ability to use Javanese. Yeah, that was the lingua franca. Interaction, social interaction, and culture like that, is a big contrast compared to what happened three years before, right? 2008, 2011. Because the approach of Dandles was... Yeah, Dandles was a fighter.
He was a skilled administrator. This is what I want to mention. But at most, he could speak Malay, could not speak Javanese. And he was very aggressive and very cruel.
He was the one who became the commander of Ambon, because he lost Ambon and the city, the city of the British. He was shot. Someone who was fighting him in the area from Posfeg, also was taken to Posfeg, and someone who was tied up with a favorite soldier from the second division, was also shot by a firing squad.
This is a little different, yes? And I think in my mind, it's a little different. far-fetched.
This is because Diponegoro wants an English biographer and not a Dutchman, yeah? Because he looked back to this era of the British time as a Zamanmas, yeah? Well, that's right. He really felt that this was something that was an enlightened period, and it was a period where Budaya Jawa mungkin, for the wrong reasons, dihargaid and diorbit kanam, obviously. Raffles is knighted on the 27th of May, and he's just published his book on the 10th of May, 1817. So this is a knight down, not only because of Conwallis, Saratoga and Yorktown, or because of Hugh Hope, the Peninsula Wars, but also because of Malang Lang Buana, with Asset Budaya, and the history of Java was a phenomenon.
banha orang yang meng-inchar, Java became a fashionable term. People wanted Javanese furniture. Princess Charlotte, who was married to the heir to the throne, diadibri aset-aset spati, Sumbanese ponies and Javanese oak furniture and krist.
wayang collections. Ini menjadi booming di London untuk satu beberapa waktu. Tapi di belakang itu, jangan salah, ada salah satu unsur yang sangat keji dari semua, ya, kita semua tahu buku dari Remy Limpak. Namanya The Burundan The Kampungs van General Spoor.
General Spur had villages that were being burned down. Or burned down, destroyed. Actually, from Malacca to Surabaya, Malacca was occupied by Albuquerque.
Malacca at that time, three, six times as many as London. London had 50,000. Malacca had 300,000 people. It's not a small place. and they were captured and all the prisoners were captured and buried with Floor Del Mar when they were taken to Goa.
Until Surabaya, when General Mansek, we lost one general and for that we took Maubalas Dendam by joining the 5th Indian Division with fighter jets, with tanks, and street by street in Surabaya. Ditaklukan. So the subtext is written in blood. Ja, satu example. Kita menaklukkan Jogja.
Kita ditaklukan oleh orang Amerika di Saratoga dan Yorktown. Sesudahkan Wallace ditaklukan di Yorktown. He left his sabel, his sword, to Washington.
And he was invited to dinner at night, as soon as he got up. Because there was a kind of friendship, there was a kind of respect for each other. They're gentlemen. Georgia was executed. Georgia also had a prisoner.
Sumodiningrad. seorang dari Trah Mataram sampai ke Pragola di Pati yang bermukim di Keduh Selatan dan adalah panji dan ponakawan dari Hemangkebono ke-2 dan night down sebagai Bupati Kori dan Panglima. Dia ditaklukkan, Inggris menaklukkan, dalam blitzkrieg, dua jam.
Mulai jam 5, sudah habis jam 8 pagi. Sumerian England was defeated when the southern allies were defeated by the English troops under the secretary of state John Dean, a Scottish man. They mentioned that Sumerian England was defeated, and it was defeated by Sumerian England.
between Alonalan Selatan and Krapiak. They have a large, good legacy with everything made from tech, old teak pavilions. And when they occupied Sumediningratan, they couldn't go anywhere else.
And in the end, they realized that he was in a private mosque. The private mosque was besieged and drilled by the Second World War troops. The Second World War had one of the benchies, personnel, for the British. And he became a lion in the mosque. The secretary came and took a kind of selfie at the beginning of the 19th century.
He wanted to look at himself as the one who killed Sumedin Ingrat. So he broke a heavy cavalry sword, and it was very sharp. And he wanted to cut his neck on the face of the people of Sumedin Ingrat, when he had become a lion, had become a jasad, in his own mosque.
He didn't succeed. The head was still on the body. But basically, untuk membanggakan diri dan dia lapork kepada raffles di benteng Frederberg, bahwa dia bisa menaklukkan.
And then he ordered his troops to burn everything. Everything was burned. Dan layon dari Sumedin Ingrat, a bit like Sir John Moore at Karana, you know, they buried him softly at dead of night, the sods with their bayonets turning. Hanya bisa dimakamkan pada jam, antara jam 10 dan jam 12 malam. di jejeran.
Ya? Bayangkan, Cornwallis dan Washington. Bayangkan sama-sama.
Ya. Yang ini kontras. Ya, ya.
So there's, ya, ada two weights and two measures for the world. Ya? One weight and one measure for orang yang dianggap sesama.
Another weight, totally different weight for yang dianggap bukan sesama. Ya? And this was the default setting, yeah? From beginning to end. When I was born in Burma, the first thing that was inculcated into me was that to be born an Englishman is to win the first prize in the lottery of life, yeah?
That's Cecil Rhodes, yeah? So there's a mindset, yeah? There's a mindset. And what we have now is to orbit Buddhism and our personal lives.
Untuk meyakin kan duniya, but the world is not the Atlantic. It's not the Atlantic world. When Dipanagora was born in the Caputren in Jogja, in November 1785, 56% of world GDP was in the hands of two countries. And they weren't Western countries.
One was China and the other was India. Yeah. Sabananya orang Inggris pergi sebagai like beggars.
Yeah, kita tidak kenal kebersihan badan sendiri. Shampoo is an Indian word. Yeah, cara untuk bisa mengelola James I and VI never took a bath.
He just covered his body with perfume. Jadi kalau dibandingkan antara budaya Barat dan budaya Timur, But in fact, it's very, very recently. It's only in the past 200 years.
200 years ago, there was not a single military asset in America, the Navy, in the Indonesian airspace. This is often called a historical aberration. 200 years ago, where the West could dominate the world economy. But many people forget that...
until the year 1800, the world economy was dominated by China and India. Yeah, and England was saved by India. I mean, England was going bankrupt in terms of the balance of trade and the balance on the financial account.
Oh, and we also know what England did to China to balance its trading accounts or trading assets with the export of opium. That's what caused the Opium War in the 19th century. But I want to go back to Raden Mas, Onto Wirio.
He was born in 1785. There were many events, not only in Java, but also in the world, that affected his mindset. How far, I'm just curious, how far did the eruption happen in Tambora? and Merapi in 1815 and 1822, influenced the mindset of the Javanese at that time.
And of course in Pono Doro. above anything that has been told, the events in Georgia. Yes.
There is a poem by Shakespeare, Hamlet. The times are out of joint to a cursed spite That ever I was born to set them right. Oh, curse the times.
These are times of conflict. That I was born to straighten them. Times. There's an element of that with Diponegoro. Everywhere he looked, there was change.
Biasanya kita pikir bahwa dunia hanya sedikit-sedikit berubah. Tapi sebenarnya pada waktu itu, siang dan malam berbeda dalam hitungan tahun. Waktu dia lahir, 20 tahun awal, 20... three years earlier than in Ponegoro, like the old state will be eternal.
And the old state, Batavia, Jakarta, must be protected not from VOC assets, but VOC assets that call Sumanap people and Javanese people and Bugis people to be raided and challenged. Supaya orang Inggris tidak bisa mendarat di sini atau orang Perancis tidak bisa mendarat di sini. Jadi dalam hitungan beberapa hari saja, beberapa tahun saja, itu mulai berubah hampir total. Dan human beings can't, you know, they can't adjust to that. Keluarga saya dalam tiga generasi diusir dari dua negara, dari Irlandia yang runtuh.
The British, the Protestant descendant, for seven years. And Myanmar, fell in six weeks against the Japanese Empire. And in Ponegoro, it's a bit like that.
And below that, nature guarantees one reality for the Javanese. We don't live in one room. There are many rooms. sekaligus yang membahagiakan kita punya hidup. Dan sumpah mani ada, well, Tambora cukup jauh, tapi memustakan dan lululantakan asal-usul dari Diponegoro punya eang buyutnya, Ratu Ageng, sebab keluarga dari Bima.
Dan Kesultanan Bima sama sekali diratakan dengan tanah, dengan Tambora. Dan Tambora... Dasyat, it's like Toba, Lake Toba. This was a stratovolcano. It was around the world for several days.
Around the world. And that's why Napoleon could be captured in Waterloo. Because in June, we thought June was full of sun, but in June, which was very full of rain, he couldn't use his cavalry assets there.
Everything became... 1815. 1815, June 18th. And inside he had a tricolour hat.
It was full of water when it was captured by the British. So, this is the butterfly effect. So, for Tambora, Tambora, a resident in Solo, Major Jeremiah Johnson, thought that Java was being attacked, wanted to be attacked by the French Navy again, because the dentum in Tambora could be heard in Solo and Jogja, and they thought this was the artillery, the Navy artillery, which was far away in the east, was happening.
So, Yeah, this is a major event, major event for the world. Yeah, it's a bit like Krakatau for Proust. All these wonderful sunsets, which he saw in Paris, is due to Krakatau. With Merapi, it's more local.
Yeah, lebih local. Tapi Di Pono Goro, yeah, he said this was an interesting night for him because dia pergi untuk main chatur dengan diapunyataman sohibian. the closest, Radhanayudana Kusumo, who also read the mystic Islam and Tasawwuf.
And it was the Qitanan from his brother, Surya Bronto. And he went home at two o'clock in the morning. And so...
Lelah, dia tidur hampir 12 jam dan dia dibangunkan oleh letusan dari Merapi, 27, 28 December 1822, dan dia pergi ke pelataran. He said, I looked up and I saw the blood-red skies and I saw the earth heaving, I felt the earth heaving. Ini adalah kutukan ilahi. You know, this was, ini adalah amarah. dari Tuhan, dari Allah.
And he wrote this in his babad. And for him this is a sort of, yeah, ada cholera, there was the kakringan, ada pests, like, yeah, lots and lots of things which were going wrong in dan di cerminkan di dalam Yeah, nature. And this is a sign that there is something that is not finished.
Yeah. Not finished. And in... Yeah, Ayah Mertua Sayyad, during the Dutch period, was called when he was studying in the area of... He was a ship's designer, designing a fishing fleet for the Java Sea.
And he told them every day to explain to them about... Ramalan Joyoboyo, yang muncul di dalam Koran het nieuws van de dag van Nederlandse India, para waktu itu, and he was called by his mandor, Dutchman, explain this to me. What is this Ramalan Joyoboyo? What is this Ratu Adil?
Yeah, what's Diponegoro, what's Bunkano on about when he's talking about these things? And for Diponegoro, it's not just in a Koran, it's something which is deeply felt. So, so, so, so. bisa merasakan itu.
Dan dia bisa merasakan bahwa, ya ini adalah tugas saya. Tugas saya. Dan dia, yeah, he was a mystic.
His default setting is a mystic. He's an administrator, he's a panglima, he's a sastrawan, but he's basically a Javanese Sufi mystic. And he gets wangsit.
He gets, dia bisa menghadap dengan dunia leluhur. Dan dia diberi, yeah. Salah satu petunjuk apa? Peter, apakah itu alasan kenapa dia menolak untuk meneruskan amanahnya Amangkebuono III? Ya, dia sudah diberitahu waktu dia menjelang dunia dewasa, dia menjelang kira-kira 20 tahun.
Like Mandela went to Outback to catch and kill a lion with his own hands. He went on a tour to the Sea of Kedah. Walking. 70, 70 kilometers, yeah, through the Imogiri area, through the Vono Kromo, through the Golo Golo cave, until Golo Langse, where he can meditate and can have a first penultimate penultimate from Ratu Kidul, then to Parangkasumo. And in Parangkasumo he is told by one of the visitors from Sunang Kalijogo, Manke, in the Somali state, the land of Javanese, the land of Javanese, in three years, will start to destroy the land of Javanese.
And that's exactly, right in January 1808, when the Dynals came. And at that time, he was told, don't accept the opera. Pun dari Belanda, pun dari siapapun, dari gelar Putra Makota. Do not accept the Crown Prince's title. Ini pesan dari Lorokidul?
Bukan, pesan dari Sunangkalijogo yang memberi salah satu. Ada wangsit dan di dalam dia punya babat, dia menulis, sungguh itu akan menjadi satu dosa besar. if I accept this.
And actually, England is targeting Tiponegoro because he is a little bit like Gibran for Jokowi, he is a smart boy, a smart boy, he has been painted in a book that was written and completed long before the Javanese War, that he is a hero, even though he is only 28 years old. or 22 towns, 26 towns. This was an age for young men.
You had the younger Pitt, 22, Prime Minister of England. You had Saint-Just, 26, member of the Committee of Public Safety. And Di Ponegoro, he was a panaceat for his age. And at that time, the English wanted to have a secret meeting before they became a country. with Diponegoro and his father.
And Diponegoro was given the opportunity to be shown as Putra Makata. And he refused at that time. Even though Hamangkebono IV was only 10 years old?
Yes, but he was a son of Parmasuri. And Diponegoro, he already knew that was not his world. I felt a bit of a tangle in the kingdom.
His mandate was bigger than that. He defended Diponegoro after the battle of Jogja was fought and then he said to the Jogja's leaders, as the third general, that Diponegoro must still live in the battle of Jogja, in the area of the Kancona and other areas. And Diponegoro wrote in his babad, you know, in i bukan, yeah. It's not my space, it's not where I feel at home.
I feel at home in Tagarecho. He built this beautiful meditation area right under the shadow of Mount Merapi, with a flower, with a pond, with a pond, with a pond, with a pond. You know, he had, he lived with nature, you know, and Harus.
ada pondok di midjen, ada pondok di kraton, that's not his, di anum manulis di dalam babat, sama rasa kikuk di dalam situasi seperti ini. It's not my default setting. My default setting is, you know, living partly in the natural world and as a mystic.
So it was not for him, and he knew that. And he also knew it because of the various bisikan gaib. And then...
I mean, he has the 6th, 7th, 8th Pancrean, like Mangkabumi. It's not strange. 1825. What led him to start the Javanese War? He was already a warrior in the natural world. Ada cerminan, bahwa the times are out of joint, occurs its bite, yeah?
Ada satu geguro di dalam alam. Geguro dalam alam ada banyak lapis, ethnic tensions between bandato, Orang Tionghoa, bukan orang peranakan, bukan orang sampun manjing agami sedoyo di Lassem, tapi orang yang datang langsung dari Canton atau Fujian atau Kwandung, langsung diundang oleh Belanda datang ke Pulau Jawa untuk menjadi ujung tombak dari satu-satu kebijakan fiskal baru, indirect taxes, yang berlimpah-limpah. Dan men-buat bahwa... dunya desa di jawa, di jawa tanga salatan menja di tong mesiu.
You couldn't go to a market without going through a toll gate. Coming here from Tangarang Salatan, I have to pay, I don't know how many tolls. And it's the same with the added edge of ethnic tensions.
There was a famine, there was a flood in Merapi, there was the first cholera epidemic in 1821, and a terrible situation. If the city of Pernik didn't collapse, the people of Chile in the southern part of the country did collapse because there was a kind of heavy flood from the people about a situation that... can't be defended, because there are changes, there is fiscal burden, there is burden from land tax that has to be paid in bank accounts, silver money, not pitches, lead.
Yeah, it's like the start of the French Revolution. Yeah, lots and lots of, it's not just going hunting in Fontainebleau. Akumulasi dari banyak hal. Akumulasi. Dan yang paling dasar adalah ya, merasa penghinaan.
Ya, martabat. Merasa, pada abad 18, pada abad 17, pada abad 16 dengan Porto dan Spanyol, mereka tahu menau bahwa mereka hanya segelintir orang. If they don't understand local language, if they act in a way that is too much, they will be finished quickly.
But in the 19th century, there were assets, industrial assets. They're now repeater rifles, early, you know, Congreve rockets. Yeah. you know, you have rifled barrels of, you know, so you can drop canister shop within at a thousand yards, at a few yards distance. At a revolution, industry and politics change the way of life.
And this becomes a reality here in Pulau Jawa. And this is what we're facing in Ponegoro. Sumpah, mani, tidak ada revolusi industri, tidak ada French Revolution. Mungkin lain sejarah. Mungkin kalau dia ulung di dalam prang Jawa, we wouldn't be sitting here.
There would be no question that basically Javanese was satu asset, budaya. Immediately you got the memory of the world for the Baba Dibonogoro. Everybody would know that.
But it was penghinaan, ya, ada satu penghinaan dan ada merasa bahwa di dalam semua lini pakaian, bahasa, kuliner, ya, cara untuk mengatur hidup, semua diabeikan dan dilecehkan, ya. And the Java War can be summed up in three words. I want respect.
If you gave me respect, no problems. But you didn't give me respect. Di hina.
Tidak dijuluk sebagai kanceng gusti, tapi dijuluk sebagai orang yang gila. Seperti badut. And people who become representatives of the Netherlands in Georgia are very uncomfortable.
Not people who are new to the country. Not people like John Crawford who can speak Bahasa like Oppenheimer. In a calculation of a week or a month, he can speak Promo Enggil.
What gives him endurance to be able to survive for five years? And this is also in the context of how this has a very negative impact on the position of the Dutch economy at that time. Yes, he exposed it. He is like, he is the richest person in Georgia, not because of corruption, because he is a successful administrator.
He had a well-off family, he had assets in his house and his land. Everything was sacrificed for war. It was all or nothing.
It wasn't just a sting. And he was a person who didn't compromise. And since he was little, I swear there was no... Mangkubumi, who has the 6th, 7th, and 8th Pancendra, can see the great in the middle of the city, when the city council was being planned and built.
If he wasn't... For the Pernukoro, you didn't have to learn to shoot because it was his second nature. You know, he was carrying a gun every day.
Wearing a shoulder bag, going on a tour to the sea, he was a good man, like Kyayeng Abdul Rahim. He could be a good man. So when he was in the Javanese War, He knew, you know, I mean, this is the greatness of that life.
He was going to go down to defeat. He's like the last samurai, but he's going to leave behind a legacy. And that legacy is going to be one, a legacy going to be one, which is, he writes this incredible 1,100 page babad.
not for himself, but for his children, so they could grow up as Javanese in a Buginese and Makassari's environment. And he leaves behind a tuladan, and that's recognized almost from the minute he dies. He says, this is Chris, Kanjeng Kiyai Bondoyodo, a noble man who can fight without a weapon.
Chris, this cannot be held by anyone from Chuchu and Chichit and Anaksaya. They don't have... enough to be able to protect my trust, this has to be buried in my grave. Because this dharma is already finished.
But when he died, not far from Makassar, in one of the lands that no one knows, in the Malay village there. One of the simple maqams near the second son's house. The Dutch already understood that this was a tradition. And a resident of Banu Mas sent a surat to Batavia Sunutskap.
We must translate the Baba Diponegoro into Dutch. And we must have this as a fixed set reading. in the Leiden Reichsinstelling for Inlander, Amtenaren and Engineers, so that they could understand how the brain of a native person came. So the Dutch recognized that immediately, and the natives recognized it, because when you have the national war, you have Bung Tomo, and you have Suwardi, and you have Ciptomangu Kusumo.
When they start the Indische Partei in 1913, December 1912, who is the figure that they choose? They choose Diponegoro. When the PKI want to have pictures on the wall, they have the picture of Diponegoro.
And when PSI want to have a poster, they have Diponegoro pointing the way to the masjid because basically he boxes, he ticks all the boxes. He's a Javanese nationalist. He's a Orang Imam young. Quat, orang Islam, dan juga baum en baau dengan Wang Chilik. So, you know, yeah, it's a sort of conundrum of history.
It's a paradox of history. You lose, but ultimately you win. Yeah. It's a bit like Britain at the Dunkirk.
Dunkirk is a defeat. 400,000 troops, they come out without any assets. Leave all behind all their equipment.
And yet it's celebrated as a great victory. I was thinking about the same thing. Were you? Yeah. 1830. If he really had the sixth sense, why did he want to meet the cook?
Then... It's a bit naive to think that he wouldn't be a member of the Gondokasumo youth movement in 1879. Wachtendorf told us how we could speak and speak in a way that was not haram, not satirical. And Gonogosumo said, you can think that way.
But I was very impressed with Diponogoro when we prepared ourselves that morning. Then we went to the I feel like he already knows what will happen. Okay.
But he doesn't feel that it will happen in Halal Bilal. Halal Bilal is a day of sakti. He feels that it will happen in another opportunity.
But in the realm of Islam, if we make... to one of the greater powers to us, there is no victory or one of the victories. If we are forced to, like the Nabi must leave Mecca to Medina, this is reality. And in the last three or six months, He was caught in Gunung Gowong in South Kedut.
He had to jump off a horse, leaving behind a magical rock that could whisper where there was danger. Sand that had just been found in Hetlu, a castle in the Netherlands. And all his assets, his clothes and clothes, he jumped and...
melindung di bawah glaga dan blanda kirim pasukan melacak tidore untuk bisa melacak dia. Dan dia harus raib dengan dua ponokawan. It's a bit like, say, Washington is defeated at Saratoga and Yorktown. Dia raib dengan dua adjutan militaire across the Appalachians. Cornwallis sends him a message and says, come to New York.
to negotiate. He comes to New York to negotiate and he is arrested. And he's sent and he dies in Botany Bay, in a little island in a fort in Botany Bay. And the British control America for the next 112 years until the Kaiser sends the high seas fleet and the men by Bascom America. And that's why America speaks German and not English.
That's the reality. That's the reality. And that's the reality of what you had to endure.
Yeah. For, yeah, the culture still, the Dutch took 832 million guilders. That's about the equivalent of purchasing power parity of $11 trillion.
Yeah. They paid their national debt. They created-You want to hear the Indian version of what the Brits took? Yeah. Well, it's much more.
45 trillions. 45 trillion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And the time has come for that money to come back. You know. a small country like the Netherlands. You know they were very poor.
You go to the Netherlands and you admire all these wonderful buildings in Delft, in Utrecht, in Leiden. The reason they have all these wonderful buildings is they were too poor to pull them all down like the British did with Bradford and Leeds and rebuild in the early 19th century. They were completely And the reason they were able to have the transition to an industrial economy, bisa ada transisi kepada satu ekonomi modern, sangat diperbantukan oleh Batik Slot dari Pulau Jawa. Mereka bisa membayar hutang negara, bisa membuat salah satu...
a large embassy from the Cretan and Canal lines, and to build fortifications in the south so that France could enter again. So this is reality. It's one of the reasons why it's so rich.
I mean, when Prince Henry the Saviour, the only member of the royal family, the people who were killed by the Nassau people who kicked the Nusantara, when he died, he had a huge portfolio of Banka Biliton Matsukape shares, and he had no children. So all this went to the royal family. Wilhelmina was a billionaire by the time she was in her 20s.
This is a bit of a segue. I just read Farid Zakaria's book, The Age of Revolutions. What's interesting, what's concluded in that book, is that three revolutions happened.
related to what the Netherlands, the UK, and the US did without touching anything to India and China. And what the Netherlands did in the context of anything that revolutionized the world was the introduction of governance. The Netherlands was the first.
And the Central Bank of Amsterdam. Right. Government for anything. Government administration, banking, financial services, and everything. In the UK, of course, industry.
Industrial revolution. And in the US, anything we see during the 20th and 21st centuries. But it's kind of funny not to make references to what was done by China. And I asked, even though in 1800, the portion of the economy of China and India was over 50%, but the reason or argument was that yes, economically they were great, but they didn't innovate. India and China.
Now that's not what I expected. That's stupid. That's very...
Salah is a hero. I am Samuel Bentham. He is the secretary for the English Revolution. And he was the one who made a revolution in the design of the Revolution with the bulkheads.
Where did he get the idea of bulkheads from? He got it because he was in Russian Siberia and he studied the design of shipwrights, which had built in. the idea of bulkheads so that you don't have a titanic situation in which you have, you know, one bulkhead being breached and the whole ship going down.
They also, by the time that Cheng Ho was coming here, 27,000 people boarded his ship in Suzhou, yeah? Yeah, Gustur, yeah, Dan Gustur, when he came to Oxford, told me, you know, he's the descendant of one of the classy of Cheng Ho, who jumped ship in Surabaya. Who knows, many of us could have been.
Yeah, Surabaya. And he came, he came with these floating... I mean, you know, he was a eunuch, right?
Yeah, that's right. Well, he was a hui, Islam. Yeah, betul.
Islam dan eunuch, though. Yeah. The theory that he had a descendant is a bit hard to believe. Maybe his friends around him.
But what Gusto told me was that one of his class, he jumped ship in Surabaya. Okay, fair. And it was a margatan.
And he was one of the leaders of Gusto. One of the leaders of the ship. And the interesting thing about that was that they never had to worry about scurvy. Because these ships were floating vegetable gardens.
Every lunch, every dinner, every breakfast. They had fresh vegetables. They didn't suffer from scurvy.
And when they came, they had 27,000 people. They did seven great voyages, some of which went to East Africa. And it was partly for tribute. But you never hear about violence.
But when Albuquerque is here, when Louisa, or when you're in Magellan, or when you have Legaspi, it's all written in blood. Yeah, there are books that... You know, Nathaniel Znadmek.
It's quite telling, what our friends from Europe did to our friends in Indonesia and Southeast Asia. Back to Dipo Nogoro. In 1830, he was caught, then he was transferred, put on a ship, sent to the United Nations.
After that, he was sent to... Makassar. Ujung Pandang or Makassar.
When was the title written? Yes, actually, the story from Diponegoro is interesting to me because this is one of the living beings who can reinvent himself. At every stage in his life, he didn't say, well, I've lost an empire and haven't found a role.
He could reinvent himself. And in the sphere of Pengasingan, what happened was that he, in the nine-month period between May 1831 and February 1832, he wrote 1,100 folios by Baba Diponegoro. Not a mere historical exercise, but in order for his children to have reading material. in exile.
And when he came to Makassar, he became a guru tasawwuf. We know this because he left behind his lakus spiritual, his notes, lakus spiritual, his Makassar notebooks, and he was giving out ijasa. to his pupils in Benteng Rotterdam to confirm their spiritual attainment, their mystical attainment. So here is someone who is living, he's not murung, you know, until he lives to 70, which is an old age for someone living in the 19th century.
He has lots and lots of different lifetimes. He lives five different lives. He's a young man in the court. He's brought up. He has 10 years under Ratu Agung, and he has this lifestyle.
He's the panasiat of his father. He has to turun ke medan prang. And then in exile, ada hijra dari fizik ke spiritual. And he dies, and he leaves behind this corpus of material, which shows that he is a guru tasawu in Makassar.
He's continuing to teach until the end of his days as a panganut tarikat syatiria. And for me, he's not perfect. He gets criticized by one anti-Tionghoa program.
He has one of the best images of women. But he's honest. He says he doesn't make a good figure. He drinks alcohol too.
What? He drinks alcohol too. Minum anggur, tapi bagi Timonogoro, bukan minum anggur sebab, ya, it's not a sort of social.
Dia bilang, anggur ini dari Afrika Selatan, dari Konstantinia. Sheikh Yusuf. Sesuatu Sheikh Yusuf, dari Cungkup, dari Sheikh Yusuf.
Ini adalah obat saya. Sesuatu yang bisa membangkitkan. He said to Knöller, his very... Yang nemenin dia di kapal.
Ya, menemenin dia. Ayo, kalau ada minuman yang sangat luar biasa itu, yang waktu saya ke keresidanan, istri dari residen selalu mencari untuk saya, Monggo, saya akan menerima. Sebab ini akan memberi, seperti di negara saya, di Elandia, kita...
di brita'o le docto'n to minum ginnis, babarad baniat besi, di dalan supamaniakita agat low, agat nusu. So for him, it was an obat. He wasn't a drunkard.
He wasn't like Radan Massai, diyan ke gamaran yenefer. But it was, yeah, and he wasn't a killjoy. He rolled his own cigarettes. He liked playing chess. He liked looking at picture books of the Crusades, and he liked looking at...
texts of Buddhist texts. So you know he's tidak berkotak-kotak. He's someone who, yeah it's like this glass, there's water in this glass, but the water takes the exact shape of the glass. He's able to fit himself in wherever he is.
Peter, Anda itu sangat kaya dengan apa ya, ilmu dan informasi dan pengetahuan yang I think it's appropriate to be wrapped in a film. I think this has to be shared. That's right. And I've been thinking for the past hour, how can this be manifested in a film that can be a lesson. For hopefully not only Indonesian people, but anyone.
Because this character, in my opinion, I don't really like to learn history. And I always think that historical knowledge is very important for us to be able to predict the future. This is the phenomenon that I often call historical amnesia.
And this may be correlated with how we use our two thumbs to use social media or social media that is only It's a way of connecting with others about the present, but not about the past. This is not very wise. What is this medicine? This medicine, I'll just give you a little bit.
I'll show you this. This is a small book. It's a little pocket book.
And it's about, this is about Kartini's sister, Rukmini. We don't know about Rukmini, but in fact she was an artist. She was the person who brought back the Jepara era. And sent by Uki Ranjapada, who is actually our president. He's a good person.
Yes, he's a good person. Because he's a part of the world as a... Diapunia Mobile, Diapunia Industry Mobile, the solo, yeah? So if you make a little book like this, somebody can take it in there, they can take it on the commuter line or they can put it in their pocket, but it can also be part of a fashion line, yeah?
So I was inspired by Melissa Sunjaya, by Tuli-san, by the fashion line, yeah? Diapunia Fashion Line, 1830. Yeah? Dia punha fashion line, iam baru saja pram puam pram puam berkasa.
Dan Rukmini, we don't know about Rukmini, but she's in fact a very interesting person. She's someone who mendobrak adat istiadat. She decided not to accept an arranged marriage.
She negotiated her own marriage with the wadono of Mayong. Dan waktu dia menjadi janda. Her husband died at 46 of diabetes. She became one of the highest, the most holy, and she was one of the assets, because she studied verbal educational techniques and Montessori techniques.
So she actually was a part of the education world. She was the person who... Japara Woodcut, she was a orang yang bisa mencaminkan how we can use education and culture to win respect and to actually win back our independence.
Dan waktu tahun 1935, dia bergabung lagi dengan dia punya adik di Semarang, Sumatri. Sumatri wrote to Abandonon's wife. Abandonon had died in 1925. It's amazing the distance we've traveled in these past 35 years. We now have women doctors, we have women lawyers, we don't question that women have to get the same education as men.
But 30 years ago when we were growing up in Japara, we had to fight for this. She wanted to go. This is a picture of Rukmini at the doors of the academy in The Hague. the painting academy.
She wanted to go to The Hague to study art, and she wasn't allowed to do that because of Pinkitán, daughter of Upati. Kartini also wasn't allowed. I mean, these are brilliant people.
Kartini talked about everything. You know, she's like Ibu Tutiharati of Japara, and she's someone who, you know, men dobrak sumoa. And she wrote it all in fluent Dutch. And when the Dutch came, they were invited by her father to have lunch, Karimondjawa.
They were surveying the Karimondjawa Islands. She addressed them in Dutch and they refused to speak in Dutch back to her because Dutch was too beautiful a language to be spoken by a brown mouth. That's what she said.
And these are people we need to honour. History is not a luxury. It's a DNA bansa.
This is what makes you, yeah? Le luhur orasare, yeah? They're not sleeping, yeah?
They're alive, they're well, they're kicking, they're watching, yeah? And we have to honor that. And it's just because the New Order abolished the study of literature in 1972, torpedoed Pramudya Ananda Toor's book. Nobel Prize for Literature doesn't mean that we should always tete-a-blengel, you know?
Literature is part of our culture, yeah? Here, you've talked about Napoleon, you've talked about Cornwallis, you know, Saratoga and Yorktown. I mean, America is not a closed book for you.
That's part of your, you know, as Ajahn Chah said, you know, if you have an enlightened Westerner, they've got many more rooms in their mind, yeah? This is interesting. This might be the last question, because we have a time limit. But often when I talk or we talk to Indonesians, we assume that we are not as advanced as other countries.
What we often make mistakes about is that we were once oppressed. How can we not be trapped by such a mindset so that we can be more... can grow and can be more advanced.
And you have made a statement that your style or your hunch, that there is no reason for Indonesia to not be able to reach the top. Now, illustrate your hunch, so that Indonesia can be more cultured, more able to project our soft power to the whole world and we are known. Sebagai bukan hanya budaya, tapi peradaban yang keren banget. Ya, saya kira ada ujung tombak praktis dan juga ujung tombak yang boleh dikatakan lebih dasar. Ujung tombak praktis, baru saja Pak Gita bilang kepada saya, we're going to found a Southeast Asian Center in Stanford.
Sebenarnya pada waktu... Bad as they were, the Dutch left Awarisan. They created the Commissie for de Volkslektuur, the Commission for People's Reading. Jadi, buku kecil seperti Rukmini, atau Baba Diponogoro, mungkin excerpts of the Baba Diponogoro, or Josip Dipono's Baba Gyanti, or the Soracentini.
They published these things so that people had reading material. It doesn't grow on trees. You have to have... a, you have to have a policy, a cultural policy.
When Vadiman, I'm going to meet Vadiman, when Baba Dipanogoro becomes a memory of the world, this is an asset for you. You have to make a film like that, like the Eisenstein Battletrip for Tienkin, or, you know, um, Tegucarrius, November de Lapan, Blas de Lapan, this is an opportunity for you to actually orbit. De Ponagoro should be known. He's been recognized by UNESCO. He's part of one of 299 manuscripts from all over the world, which have been recognized, as has Hila Gallego.
Why does Hila Gallego, which is a creation myth of the Bugis, why does that have to be brought to the stage by an American director, Robert Wilson? Why don't you do it yourself? Yeah.
You have to have, you have to put out hard money. Yeah. Into this. And you have to be Jali.
You have to be like the Singaporeans. Where do we want to be in 50 years time? Where do we want to be in a hundred years? A hundred years from independence. What sort of country do you want to be?
Yeah. And Jangan Mindavadik, Dissini. I mean, I've met people who know what I'm thinking. Yeah.
I met people who have a Hati Naluri, Yang Bisa. Yeah, they can train people to descend into the Medan Prang of Surabaya and know where danger is coming from. Yeah, they've got an internal radar.
Yeah, people here, you've got to, just because this is not off the, you know, the Hodian right field, it's off the left field. You have to, it's not a tabula rasa. It's not just the United States.
It's not just Western Europe. There are lots and lots of different types of cultural asset. There are lots and lots of different types of kalibian.
And we've got to create a condition for the world in which there is cultural biodiversity as well as this. And there has to be respect and you have to earn that respect. You can't just say, here we are, Indonesia, come and find us out. You actually have to make this available every week on a Tuesday flying from Bangkok.
are special condiments for all the Thai restaurants in London. Yeah. They know this is an asset for them.
This is a culture that's part of soft power, Thailand's soft power. Yeah. You have to strategize this.
It's not something, somebody like myself doesn't grow on trees. You have to actually have support in an easiness. You have to cultivate people.
And you have to, it's a bit like when I was in, East Timor, I became a friend of the Japanese ambassador, and he roomed with Bob Zulik, who is the Commerce Secretary, and he can phone him up. If there's a problem for Japan in terms of trade, you know, you need to have jaringan, which are international jaringan. In the earlier period, Rukmini had a jaringan, and she was a friend of Theo van Deventer and a friend of all the top people of the ethiqi.
The Abandonons adopted her. Absolutely. Don't be a little bit. You have to...
I don't think you can win with anyone. Very easily. I think of Ahmad Mokhtar.
Ahmad Mokhtar was 28 when he defended his thesis in Amsterdam, and he'd... Yellow fever. 28, if he hadn't been bulldozed by the Kempeitai.
you would have got a second Nobel Prize. Here in Batavia, you opened the whole cornucopia of vitamins in diet because you discovered vitamin B1. Admittedly, that was a Dutchman, Eijkman, but he had a whole team who were pre-boomy. You know, you need to actually, malang-lang buwane, you need to actually advertise these assets.
Sangkot Marzuki, salah satu. Sangkot Marzuki, and you brought him back from Australia to head up. the Eichmann Institute. If it hadn't been for Habibie, he wouldn't have an Eichmann Institute.
1993 he revived it. These are assets, aset negara. And don't forget...
I still have a lot of questions, Peter. But I will ask one more. In Indonesia, I think we are less of a storyteller. There are many stories, but we have to be able to tell more stories to the whole world, starting with ourselves. How is that?
Seperti president kita, Gibran, dinamakan Gibran dari Khalil Gibran. And Khalil Gibran said, after eating and drinking, the most important, salah satu necessity is the hearing of stories. So sudah makan dan minum, kebutuhan yang paling pokok manusia adalah dengar cerita. Dan dengar cerita, we have to hear it from our mothers, we have to have it actually online, we have to have it in videos, we have to have it in layar lebar. We have to have it on Netflix.
Yeah. Why isn't Dipona Gora on Netflix? Why isn't there a six part series on Dipona Gora?
It will be. Yeah. That's a promise. Yeah.
It's fascinating. And we get Tegucariam, we get Slamat Rahadjo, we get Eris Jarot. You know, you've got assets here. You've got young directors. Yeah.
Maybe they're making like Joko Anwar horror films, but they, you know, you've got great talent. And that talent has to be supported. And not the cringe mentality that just because you're not a graduate of Harvard or Oxford, you don't mean anything. Terima kasih banyak, Peter.
Okay. Sorry, it's my rant. Teman-teman, itulah Peter Carey, sejarawan dan Indonesianist. Terima kasih.
Inilah Endgame.