Transcript for:
Exploring Life's Purpose and Faith Dialogue

Is there an ultimate purpose of life? Yeah, sure. What is it? What we're doing here. Which is what?

Hopefully trying to make peace. Is that enough? We'll see.

Yeah, because... It's better than the alternative. What's the alternative?

Hell. Okay. Which we're toying with. I don't mean us. Well, us too.

That's for sure. But, you know, things are shaky at the moment on many fronts. And we have this opportunity in front of us, all of us, to have a very abundant world, right, where everyone has enough and maybe more than enough.

And we're shaky about that. We're not sure that that's acceptable. And we're not sure everybody should have it.

We're not sure everybody deserves it, even ourselves. And. And we're retreating into our corners in some real sense.

And we're not addressing the elephants under the carpet. And you can't do that. The things we're discussing contentiously now, they make for rough conversations, but they make for a lot rougher streets if you don't talk them out. And you have to do that in a spirit of ignorance.

So our first special guest is Dr. Jordan B. Peterson. He is a clinical psychologist and professor emeritus at the University of Toronto. From 1993 to 1998, he served as an assistant and then associate professor of psychology at Harvard.

He spent 15 years writing maps of meaning, the architecture of belief. Dr. Peterson has penned the popular global bestsellers Beyond Order, 12 More Rules for Life, and 12 Rules for Life, an Antidote to Chaos. In 2016, before the publication of 12 Rules, several of Dr. Peterson's online lectures, videos, and interviews went viral, launching him into unprecedented international prominence as a public intellectual and educator.

With his colleagues, Dr. Peterson has produced two online programs to help people understand themselves better. and to improve their psychological and practical functioning. He's currently working on an online university dubbed Peterson Academy.

Please welcome Dr. Peterson. We also have with us Jonathan Peugeot. He is an artist and he studies Christian symbolism and he also studies Postmodernism, right? God forbid for some, right? So we also have with us our beloved Mohamed Hijab.

He is an author, comparative religionist and philosopher of religion. He's the co-founder of our institute, Sapiens Institute, and is a researcher and instructor for the organization. He has a BA in politics and a master's degree in history, and he also acquired a second master's degree in Islamic studies from the School of Re-entering African Studies.

And he completed a third master's degree in applied theology from the University of Oxford. And now he's studying his PhD on the philosophy of religion, specifically on the contingency argument for God's existence. In addition, Hijab has undergone formal training in Islamic studies with a focus on the Quran, prophetic traditions and legal reasoning.

Hijab has completed Islamic seminary courses and has been given formal permission to relay Islamic knowledge on selected Islamic fields. Muhammad Hijab is one of the very few Muslim public figures who deal comparatively with political, philosophical and theological issues such as and has amassed a following on with many subscribers on YouTube in English and Arabic. So please welcome Muhammad Hijab and of course Jonathan Pujol. So because I'm 100% disagreeable and not polite at all, I want to just I want to get the elephant out of the room.

I do like to do that. And there's been a recent video that you put up, a message to the Muslims. And before I say this, I do want to speak about the important topics, the theological topics, and all these kind of postmodernism.

That will come. But I just wanted to mention this first. Because for me, it's just get the elephant out of the room and then we can move on.

Sometimes it's just replaced by a slightly smaller elephant. Well, a smaller elephant is better than nothing. What I was going to say is that it didn't land well with a lot of the Muslim community. And I think the reason why is that it was seen as condescending, it was seen as kind of patronizing. What was your intention with this video exactly?

To start a dialogue stupidly and badly. Because that's how you have to start. You know, we talked already about the idea of tolerance. And I'm actually not here to be tolerant.

You know, because tolerance sort of presumes that I know what I'm doing and you guys don't, but I'll put up with you anyways. And see, I don't actually think I know what I'm doing exactly. And so I think, well, you might have something to teach me.

And so it's not so much tolerance as... I would say, hopefully, something approximating an expression of reasonable humility, which is, well, first of all, we occupy the same space, and as far as I'm concerned, it'd be better if we got along, and we've all had our own revelations, you know, personally and, let's say, socially, and we don't know how to integrate those revelations, and that's rough, that's hard, and so I'm here to listen, and The message was preposterous in some sense, although not much more so than the message I made to Christians, which I wouldn't say was exactly flattering. And, you know, I thought it would probably ruffle some feathers, but I thought it might also initiate a dialogue, or at least further it.

And that has happened, you know, I mean... Certainly, there were many people who were irritated at me and thought that I was being condescending. And I wasn't trying to be because I do have a lot of people who are paying attention to my lectures around the world on the Islamic side, which is quite surprising to me, especially with regard to the attention that's been given to the biblical lectures.

And I don't take any of that for granted. And I wasn't trying to either capitalize on it or interfere with it. I was trying to... do the next stupid thing that might move things forward a bit.

And that's actually, it's actually worked, I would say. Well, first of all, I am here. And I know that's not a direct consequence of that message, but at least it didn't break it.

And there have been many other Muslim groups who've reached out to me in a serious way, at least in part because of that. And so I think we have to understand that we're going to stumble into each other a fair bit if we actually try to talk because of all the elephants and the snakes that are lurking under the carpet and I think it's a very good thing to get the mountain open. I'm a very agreeable person as it turns out, yes I know it's to my detriment but I wouldn't have guessed to be honest that you're very agreeable. Yes it's one of my major character flaws but I don't like conflict at all and but the reason I would say I'm prone to engage in it is because sometimes you What's under the carpet needs to be revealed because it's going to cause a lot of trouble if it just sits there and brews or broods and multiplies.

And so it is one of the advantages of disagreeable people having them around because they will haul things up for inspection that everyone else might be loathe to confront. The downside is, well, you might do that too often, you know, and that's a hard thing to get right. So I'm not here in a spirit of tolerance.

I'm here in a spirit of ignorance. And I'm hoping, see, the other thing I've been thinking through, and you guys can tell me what you think about this, is it seems that in the situation we're in now, sort of globally speaking, that it would be useful for people of religious faith to note that there are other people of religious faith with whom they have much in common, one of them being religious faith, and that they are... also confronting as people of religious faith a world that is attempting to, let's say, shake itself free of that. And so it isn't exactly obvious to me that it's a great time for people of religious faith to concentrate on their differences, given that there are perhaps more important elephants to address, let's say, or fish to fry. And so I've been trying to, I'm very ignorant about the Islamic tradition, and I'm trying to rectify that.

it's very difficult to step outside your own culture and to really understand someone else's. And so, and I'm under no illusions, I hope, about the degree of understanding that I've managed, but I have tried to understand what we might share in common, and that's crucial. And so certainly one of the ideas that we all share in common on the religious front, let's say, is that there is an ultimate unity that should be...

placed above all else. And so that's part of the great monotheistic tradition. And I'm going to speak mostly as a psychologist rather than as, say, an advocate of the Christian tradition because it is obvious to me that I...

Let me kind of push back a little bit on that point because you're an individual like, obviously in your newest book, you're talking very categorically about precision. And I would say you're an individual that is very precise. You're categorized like, if I was to say anything, I would say that you're an individual that's scrupulously meticulous in exactitude and...

I don't know, meticulousness or whatever, yeah? So you speak and you think about what you're going to say before you say it. That's what you're known for.

In fact, if someone says something which is kind of off the market, you pull them up for it, right? Usually because I don't understand it then. Yeah, for example, like the Kathy Newman interview, like the assumptions and the questioning that she had when she was questioning, you pulled her up on it.

And that's why it became so popular, the discussion was so popular. And you're a clinical psychologist. So what I was going to say is this. For example, if I were to make a video, right? I'll say this message to white Canadians or something, yeah?

Yeah. And I said, you know... It's hard to talk to them.

And I say, look, you know, sensitively, why don't you reach out to some Russians, you know? Or, you know, heaven forbid, you know, reach out to black Africans or First Nation people, you know, whatever it may be. How do you think the community of white Canadians, let's say, for the sake of argument...

will react to that kind of message. Well, if it was you? Yeah.

Well, you're pretty disagreeable, so you'd probably get bit back a lot. Yeah, exactly. It's hard to say until you do it.

I mean, I have reached out to other communities, let's say. I did an interview with a friend of mine who's a Native American carver who lives on the West Coast. And, you know, I'm not very happy with the narrative that's being promoted in Canada, which is that the European...

settlement of Canada is best viewed as genocidally colonial. And having said that, my friend, this carver, was in a residential school in Canada, and the residential schools were put forward by the government in an attempt, and other institutions in an attempt to separate the indigenous children from their families and then socialize them rapidly according to European norms. And there was some positive motivation for that.

And sometimes that helped and worked, but one of the things that did happen was that some schools were, let's say, invaded by people of a pronounced pedophilic and sadistic bent. And my friend ended up in one of those schools, and his life was so dreadful that you can't even hear about it without serious emotional damage. And so I went forward with that discussion, and it was very contentious, but it went very well. It told a story that was true and needed to be told.

And so, you know, you step into foreign territory at your peril, that's for sure. But, you know, and it was relatively difficult for me to arrange for this to be a possibility. Yeah, of course.

But my thought, again, because I'm trying to look for what we have to offer each other rather than what divides us, I thought it was worthwhile. In an economy as volatile as this one, it's important to have control when you're making a big purchase like a new car. That's where Carzing comes into play.

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So, for example, it's not always what you say. Sometimes it can be what you don't say. So, for instance, I think you've become somewhat of an emblem of Western civilization, right?

In terms of you're an intentional... Heaven help us. You have. And I also push back on the point that this is a foreign culture because I think that Islam, and you've mentioned this in the lecture as well, that Islam has now become part of Western culture.

Yeah, well, that's the open question. As we noted in the introductory remarks, it's like, well, is Islam part of the West? We're kind of having the same discussion about Russia in some real sense. And that's really going well at the moment.

Yeah, so there's that part. But what I would say is that, you know, if... There is a bloody history of Western colonialism, and that's almost undeniable. Like, for example, look at Algeria, for instance.

Algeria, when it was annexed by France. There's no dispute in that. There's no dispute in what happened there. So I'm giving you one example of many.

The Spanish colonialism of Latin America, for example. There are things that happened. And I'm not saying that's not things that happened only just on the Western front.

Yeah. There are things that happen on the Muslim front as well, of course. This is true. No doubt about it, right?

I'm not going to stand here and defend the Mu'ahidun who came and were very intolerant to Jews and Christians and kicked them out of their homes and so on like that, who existed in Spain as well, in fact. So the point is, I feel like, I don't know, as a psychologist, I think my question would be to you, don't you think, is it of any benefit to be concessionary in this regard? Like to start off the discussion by saying, we know that these are things that could cause resentment.

Yes. Because, for example, I know a lot of Algerian people, and this is very clear in their historical memory. Yes.

And the accusation would be that the West have colonial amnesia here. They are not taking into account what they've done. I'll be honest with you. They don't even know how.

Well, okay. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, look, here's how I would address that psychologically.

In many of the mythological stories that I've read, there is... the motif of the evil uncle. And so, for example, in ancient Egyptian cosmology, there were four deities, four central deities, although a host of associated deities. And one of them was Osiris, who was the deity of the state.

That might be a good way of thinking about it. And he had an evil brother, Seth, who was always conspiring in the background to overthrow the state and to establish his own rule, say, based on power. And the Egyptians, this is...

thousands of years ago, had figured out by that point, because their society was quite large, that there is something in the social structure itself that posed a threat to the structure, and that was the tendency for the structure and its leaders to become willfully blind and for conspiratorial powers or patterns that would use resentment and the desire for power to overthrow that. They thought of Osiris as willfully blind and Seth as an eternal danger, and that's true. And then, but there's a There's another element to the evil uncle too, which is that in some real sense, and it's a very difficult thing to sort through morally, all of us walk on blood-soaked ground because human history is in some regards a nightmarish catastrophe.

And some of that's just because life was so difficult, but it's also because people did an unbelievably cruel and malicious and deceptive, committed, committed, unbelievably cruel and... atrocious and deceptive acts. And so we're all stuck with this problem that here we are in relative peace and harmony so far, although we seem to be doing everything we can to try to disrupt that at the moment, and part of the price that's being paid for that is an endless litany of historical catastrophe. And then we all have to face up to what does that mean for us in terms of our individual responsibility? And how do we construe ourselves in our society?

in light of that fact. And we could go back and forth continually about whose historical atrocities were worse, and that's a rough contest because, you know, the devil is definitely in the details there. And then it also brings up the other problem, which is, well, when the Spaniards went to Central America, a lot of the bloodshed they produced, the death they produced, was actually a consequence of the introduction of disease.

Because that took out about 95% of the native population in the Western Hemisphere. And then the conquistadors were... Well, maybe they weren't the finest representatives of the highest flowering of Western civilization.

We don't know to what degree they were the sort of thugs that couldn't get along at home and went out adventuring. And even if I, say, attempted to take full responsibility for that, I'm not sure what it would mean. Because I suspect I have a lot more in common with you people in the modern world than I do with Spanish conquistadors from 300 years ago.

Now, I'm not saying I bear... no responsibility for the bloodshed of the past. But I would say we all bear that responsibility.

And that's something, I would say, that's something like the conception of original sin. Yeah, and that's the point of difference. To be honest, I would disagree with that point. Like, as a Muslim, there is a verse in the Quran that says, وَلَا تَزِرُوا وَيَزِرَتُمْ وِزْرُوا أُخْرَىٰ That one soul should not bear the responsibility of someone else's actions.

Yeah, well, that's the other ethical complication. It's like, can you call me out? in relationship to the atrocity of the past. Of course not. But it's complicated, right?

Because at the same time you do say, and I don't mean you personally, but we can say things like, well, the West is not bearing sufficient responsibility for its colonial past. And so at some level that kind of devolves down to the individual. Let me kind of rephrase it then. I think that's more of a left-wing criticism. It's like, you know, there's reparations and affirmative action programs.

Yeah. I'm not advocating any of that. And nor do I even believe in any of that, to be honest with you. Nor me.

Yeah, so what I was putting as an alternative to that is this. There is this kind of, I would call this, maybe an Orientalist, a new Orientalist narrative, which states that Islam is incapable of X, Y, Z. Call it tolerance, call it whatever it is. And look at what's happened in Islamic history. You've got all of these deaths, and you've got all of these kinds of things that are happening, comparative to what we have in the West. And what we're saying is that let's look at what you have in the West, because liberalism was an ideology that was started in the 17th century.

I mean, really, it was crystallized, you know, with John Locke and all these kind of things then. And after liberalism was established, in fact, the Constitution and the documents of the founding fathers and stuff like that were based on the liberal secular principles. Even after that, you had Napoleonic Wars.

Even after that, you had colonialism continue. You had slavery continue until 1867, whatever it was, you know, the American Civil War ended. So what we're saying is that this picture of history that, you know, the West is best, basically, this idea.

because our ideology can fix all problems. It's not reasonable when you look at the historical records. I mean, one scholar called Navid Sheikh actually done a piece, it's called Body Count, and he was counting the amount of people that died in each civilization.

And he put the Western civilization is the highest. And because you have things like World War I and World War II, and these things were, World War I and World War II were nationalistic conquests. They were not religiously inspired.

I mean, you can argue to what extent were World War I and World War II religiously inspired. But... Certainly, Islam was not a main feature of the 30 million people that died in World War I or however many million people died in World War II. So the point is that we're saying is that, and obviously you've got concepts in the West like manifest destiny, which I think every single president of the United States of America believed in, westward expansion, these kind of things.

The point is that it's a proposition that the ideology of the West can fix our problems. This is what we have an issue with because what we're saying is that if we look at the historical record, there is no evidence of that. In fact, what it's shown us is that there's more bloodshed. Individualism has caused more death.

Like, with all due respect, I know that you do cherish individualism. I'm not saying everything is bad about it. When you have a society deplete of a communitarian ethic, is bereft of a communitarian ethic, then you can have these issues.

And so these are conversations. And I think you are moving towards a communitarianism. Your newest book, you were talking about institutions and these kind of things and the respectful tradition and these kind of things.

I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but these are the kinds of conversations I think we need to have. But on that point, I think, I don't want this to be interrogative. I just want to interject one thing because I think it's important.

I think, Jordan, you're very kind. And I understand. I also watched the message to Muslims and I thought there were some problems with it, definitely.

But when you said there's an elephant in the room that I want to address, my mind immediately went to videos I've seen of you. with some of your friends in the street and suggesting violence and suggesting aggressive actions against other communities, which in the West is something that, let's say in Canada, people don't do that. And that even though there might be civil conflicts, we have a state, we have police, we have an apparatus, which is not completely perfect, but which functions to install the rules.

So when I see someone in the street surrounded by men wearing masks who are talking about If these other groups come out, you know, they're going to see us and we're going to be there. And I'm looking for Jews and we're talking about blood. And there's these very strange behaviors that...

When you say we're looking for Jews, do you remember when I said that exact statement? I just remember you talking to police about... About Jewish people? Yeah. I'd like to get an exact quote.

I don't remember. I recall saying the other one. The one that I definitely saw that you spoke for quite a while was relating to some issues with Hindu. So what happened recently? I don't want to get into it.

I think the reason why it's important is that I'm a Christian, very much a Christian. I have many problems with modern Western culture. Yeah.

Right. But we are in the West. Okay.

And you are in the West. Yeah. And I am a Westerner.

Right, and you live in the West. And I'm British, just like you're Canadian. Exactly.

And so to me, the elephant in the room, that's part of the elephant in the room. There are many people who told Jordan not to come here because of those videos. Okay, well, there's a lot of people that told me not to have this conversation with Jordan because of some of his videos.

And that's why me and Jordan... Lots of people don't want to have difficult conversations. But what I'm saying with Jordan is that what makes him... gallant and brave is that despite those voices that are the voices of disunity because he's been cancelled more times than I have yeah despite the fact that he's been cancelled in Cambridge University whatever I don't care about all these institutions with all due respect I know this man is a person of influence and in my estimation I see him as one of the most if not the most influential western public voice right so for that reason I speak to him and for that reason I don't apologize to anyone for doing so.

And I think in a way, he sees the same thing in me. Maybe not to the same level, but the fact that I'm half his age, he knows what's going to come in 30 years time. So he's playing the cards right. And I think at the end of the day, my voice, my emotions, what I'm saying in the streets of London or Leicester or whatever else, is how a lot of Muslim people feel. But don't forget, yes, I'm disagreeable.

And my temperament is not the temperament of the average Muslim. So you've got to differentiate between me as an individual, me, Muhammad Hajab as an individual. and Islam.

Do you see? If you say, Muhammad Hajab, you are a hypocrite, you are a bad guy, you are violent. So you know what?

That's something I have to look into. Do you know what I mean? If that's your advice to me, that's something I have to look into. Well, I would also say there's no moral advantage in being a pushover either.

Yes, I agree. And so these things are very hard to calibrate correctly. And so, well, if we come at this in a spirit of mutual ignorance and with some degree of... Maybe this is where tolerance is more of an issue. You know, we're going to have to tolerate each other's rough edges and imperfections in order to talk, even if we think that there's something useful to be gleaned.

And, you know, my sense is that, well, we're called upon to separate the wheat from the chaff, and that's not so much to damn the chaff as it is to gather the wheat. And it seems to me in the biblical stories in the Old Testament, there's an immense emphasis. strange emphasis in some real sense it's one of the things that makes the text so remarkable on the moral stranger and foreigner and so when the society is unstable and shaking in a variety of ways it's often the moral foreigner who comes in with something wise to say and I think that's definitely true of those biblical narratives and it's very interesting that they point them out but I think it's also true practically it's like it's not as if any of us like we want to have faith in our faith and we need that because it keeps us together individually and it unites us socially but then if we insist that my if i insist that my faith which is more like my pride in my own belief is 100 correct then i've i've confused myself with my faith, I've confused myself with Christianity, or perhaps you've confused yourself with Islam, and that's a big mistake because...

So let me ask you both a question then, since we can talk about, by the way, one clarification before we call the question, I've never asked for violence, and that's an accusation I think that needs to be, you need to look back at, because I've never said let's go and do violence. I said that if such and such group come out again, which were a group of armed people, then we'll be there to defend the community. I've never said in my whole life, and I'll challenge anybody to find anything that's opposite from what I've just said. Now, that's one thing. Second thing I'll say is this, is that, and if it was a violence issue, if I did say that, what's happening with the Metropolitan Police?

Why am I not behind bars? Why has there not been a single investigation? It's 210,000 people have watched the video. Unless the police have put their fingers in their ears, or that they want to accuse the police of negligence or incompetence, that's a different story. Let's go to the second point because you're saying now about this basically dogmatism.

Let's just call it for what it is. Like, you know, it's pride in dogmatism, right? And that's something we all have to watch because it's a hard line to walk because you want to be an advocate for your faith.

But what in the world do you know, right? You're ignorant beyond comprehension. Let me ask you a question. And both of you, this is a question to both of you.

Is there an ultimate purpose of life? Yeah, sure. What is it? What we're doing here. Which is what?

Hopefully trying to make peace. Is that enough? We'll see.

Yeah, because... It's better than the alternative. What's the alternative?

Hell. Okay. Which we're toying with. I don't mean us. Well, us too.

That's for sure. But, you know, things are... Things are shaky at the moment on many fronts.

And we have this opportunity in front of us, all of us, to have a very abundant world, right, where everyone has enough and maybe more than enough. And we're shaky about that. We're not sure that that's acceptable. And we're not sure everybody should have it.

We're not sure everybody deserves it, even ourselves. And we're retreating into our corners. in some real sense, and we're not addressing the elephants under the carpet.

And you can't do that. Like the things we're discussing contentiously now, you know, they make for rough conversations, but they make for a lot rougher streets if you don't talk them out. And you have to do that in a spirit of ignorance.

You know, like I was hoping to come here today and, well, listen, I talk a lot. There's my flaw, you know, but I don't know how to feel the right way forward. I think part of it is, well, first of all, to find commonalities. We believe in the fundamental necessity of a uniting book across the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths. That's not nothing.

That's a strange thing to insist upon, and yet we all seem to agree. We believe in a higher and purposeful unity, the necessity of that, and then also in the necessity of putting that above all else. And we also agree that...

We're not very good at that, but that's the hardest one to get, is that even if you do claim in some sense to worship the highest, in this monotheistic sense, that doesn't mean you're very good at it, and that's a hard pill to swallow, especially when you're trying to also be a courageous knight of your faith, let's say. It's hard to be properly humble in the face of the divine, but... That might be, in some sense, the proper command. I mean, the fact that Islam means submission is a reflection of that in some sense, right?

Just remember who's God here and who isn't. And so, and that's a very hard thing to keep in mind. So when I listen to you, you disagreeable character, I'm trying to separate out the wheat from the chaff, you know? Because there's no doubt I have many things to learn as I learn to some degree about that message.

And we, honestly, I appreciate this part of like, you know, I learned from your... humility honestly the way that you come across and once again i do appreciate both of you coming here you know and i appreciate disagreeability as well like what you've said there's good i deserve the accountability just like he does i don't want to be a person who you know who doesn't can't dish it out who dishes out what can't get get it himself i deserve it what i wanted to say is this to both of you i want to do a thought experiment yeah and so imagine you're going to sleep i don't know where you guys are staying now what hotel you're staying you're watching my videos you know me with the masks and stuff like that before you go to sleep subscribe on the channel whatever you do yeah And now you're, after you've, you know, put the dislike and done your negative comments, which I deleted already and put it in the trash, which is what you do is all the tweets, you know, we can talk about that later. But after that's all happened and you've gone to sleep, you've both gone to sleep now, right?

You wake up and you find yourselves on a ship, on a ship, yeah? And people are eating food, people are drinking, people are this and that. So it's happening. Now, what would be the first questions that you would ask to people around you? Would you ask things like, how did I get here?

Where are we going? Are these? Those seem like the first two good. Those are good questions to ask in general. Where are we?

How did we get here? And this is where are we going? Beautiful.

That's what I wanted to actually get to. Because this is what Heidegger, you know, Martin Heidegger. He's a controversial figure in his old, right?

Okay, but he described this as the thrownness of life. Yeah. Because we're chucked into life. We're thrown into life, right?

So the fact now that we're in this world, these questions that we would be asking if we were on a ship. and we're just chucked on a ship, are the same very questions, like you said, that we would be asking if we're in this world. Where did we come from? Where are we going?

I think if we can't get these two questions right, nihilism will persist. You're a nihilistic expert. You've spoken a lot about nihilism. I think if we can't get those... He's a counter-nihilistic expert.

I'm not a nihilist. If you want, ask what I think my purpose is. It's to be united with God.

Okay, beautiful. Yeah, beautiful. Okay, so from the Islamic perspective, it's this, right?

First of all, ask these three questions. Where did I come from? Where am I going?

What am I doing here? What is the purpose of life? And the answer is, we came from a creator, okay?

So we can approach this in whatever argument you like. I'm doing a PhD in contingency argument. You can do anything you want.

You can do it, for example, through the fact that the universe is regular and stable and uniform and possesses life. What's the best explanation for that? Is it knowledge or not knowledge?

So we say it's knowledge, right? Or as we say, it's a creative capacity of some sort. We came from this creative capacity. We came from this knowledge force, right?

So that's the first thing we say. We came from this force, this higher power. Where are we going? We're going back to the higher power, right?

And we're going back to the higher power with our deeds, which we have to be responsible for, which is exactly the hallmark of what you stand for. And I believe genuinely that's why you're asking, why are so many people listening to you? Because we reject original sin. What would you respect? Original sin says that one man gave us a sin, the other man took it away.

Basically, I mean, we're fallen creatures, and then Jesus, you've got to believe in sola fide. You believe in whatever you know about Christianity. I'm Orthodox, so I don't believe that.

Oh, fair enough. I don't believe in original sin the way you described it. But that's fine. Fine.

No worries. Eastern Orthodox, yeah? Yeah. Okay, fine. But the issue is that this...

I didn't say I believed in it either. I just said that the concept of original sin is an expression of this problem that we're describing, which is that we're all burdened with something approximating. Well, the thrownness and this ambivalent relationship we have with the atrocity of history, and that's worth it, because if you study the atrocity of history with any degree of seriousness, you have to take account of the fact that people like you did it. And you might think, well, I wouldn't do it. It's like, yeah, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

For sure. I mean, you know, you were talking about the kind of, you were talking about the suffering. And obviously one of the major sufferings is the Holocaust. I was reading the book Meaningful Life, Victor Franco, I'm sure you're aware of it, where he then produced logotherapy and all these kind of things. And it goes back to what Nietzsche said, you know, if you have a why, almost any how is possible.

You know? Bearable. Yeah, if you have a why, almost any how is possible. So it goes back to, everything goes back to purpose.

Logotherapy. Yeah, just, if you have a purpose, then everything is possible. That's why I think that you can do the best as a human species, yeah, in the human condition, if your purpose is transcendental.

It's higher than the physical, the material. And for us, the purpose is mentioned in chapter 51, verse 19 of the Quran, which is, وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسِ إِلَّا لِيَعْبَدُونَ We have not created human beings and jinn, except for that they may worship me. What is worship? It's the epitome, the higher point of submission.

It's the epitome of love as well. Jonathan has an interesting take on that too, that has to do with celebration, which I think is psychologically appropriate. Do you want to, I don't want to put you on the spot, but... But it's something I've been struggling to understand more. I've attended some Orthodox ceremonies with Jonathan and also on my own.

And he's very perspicacious when it comes to describing the role of both worship and ritual. And so there's an element. Anyways, I'll let you continue with that.

No, I agree. I agree that worship is also the manner in which we bind together. And so without something we celebrate together, then we don't. And so we have different levels of what we celebrate.

You know, we can celebrate in our families, the things that bind us, but ultimately that has to reach all the way up into something which is beyond. I think that's actually very powerful, you know. And in fact, the first, very first lines of the Qur'an is, which is, all praise and thanks belong to God, Lord of the worlds. All praise and all thanks.

And this is a kind of celebration. This is a kind of praise. You know, we agree that praising God at the highest level, celebrating God, I mean, the word hallelujah. Well, I would say in some sense, if we're doing that, well, there was some comments at the beginning about the importance of music. And you opened this event with music, and I've been beginning to open my events with music.

And part of the reason that that's very much worthwhile and has to do with this drumbeat that underlies everything is that music is a manifestation of something like the joyful spirit of harmonious play. And it's not semantic, right? It grips you.

And... I've heard you say something before about this. You said that music was impervious to refutation. It's impervious to refutation.

The meaning of music is impervious to refutation. Yeah, I think that was a very powerful way of putting it. It's something, man. It's something to know.

And so with the musical manner in which the Quran is presented, a major part of that is the music. And the music speaks. We know the music speaks of layers of patterned harmony.

And you talked about... the individualism of the West. And I think that there's a flaw in that. particularized conception that needs to be addressed by something that's more approximating a communitarian ethos and I think you can understand that relationship to music because look to some degree the three of us can sit on stage and everyone in the audience we can be comfortable at the moment psychologically so we're not too anxious and we're kind of engaged because there's a certain degree of playful harmony that we've established especially with him now Yeah, so it's...

He knows my dark secrets about my violence. There's some fractiousness, right? But we're able to integrate that. And so that means we can remain calm. And so one of the things that indicates is that part of our ability to remain calm and focused is dependent on social integration.

So you have to ask yourself, well, could you be sane if your marriage was insane? Could you be sane if your relationship with your children was too fractious? Could you be sane if you had no friends? If you didn't integrate yourself into the community and maybe the state and then maybe a higher vision. And as far as I can tell, the answer to that is no, you can't be sane by yourself.

It's not merely a matter of psychological integration. It's not merely a matter of the isolated individual. And of course, we understand that in the West, although perhaps not as well as we should formally, because we'll punish criminals, for example, by putting them in solitary confinement.

That's another indication of the impossibility of, maybe if you were an expert meditator and a religious man, you could tolerate the solitude, but you probably wouldn't be a criminal then. So my point is that I view this process of integration as a multi-layered process that involves the integration of the community all the way up to the highest place. And that highest place has to be a unity, as Jonathan pointed out, or we're divided.

And so we might want to seek... amongst us as much as we can for a common unity, at least start with that. And so, and that's what we're trying to do in this conversation. Yes, but unity is different to uniformity. So I say the difference being is that, you know, in the Islamic discussion or discourse, it's like there is this, there is a verse in the Quran, in fact, it says, لَكُمْ دِنُكُمُ الْإِدِّينَ You have your religion, we have ours.

There is, we can demarcate and still tolerate, that's the point. And I think... Appreciate even. Yeah, even appreciate. That would be good.

We can even love each other. Well, go on. I don't know if we can manage that. No, I think we can. That's the thing.

Going back to the message of Muslims, I think this is where... Can I ask you a question? Have you ever been to a Muslim country? Yes. Which ones have you been to?

I've been to Morocco, and I've been to Turkey, and have I been to any other Muslim countries? Not yet. Okay, okay.

There's many on the itinerary. Go to a Muslim country with a Christian population. I'm originally from Egypt, yeah? We've had Coptic Christians there for years.

Yes. Yeah, we've had them for 1,400 years. I mean, they were there before the Muslims came, right? And the point is that if you go to Ghana, go to Nigeria, this bleak image of Muslims and Christians kind of fighting each other, I don't think that's what's really going on. I'm not saying that there's no grievance there when the Christian community is in Muslim-majority lands.

That would be a lie, and that would be false, and that can easily be refuted. What I am saying is that it's not as bad as you think. If you go to these countries, you will not find, I do not think you will find... What's going on, for example, you're talking about Hindutva, in India with the Muslim minorities and a Hindu supposedly, you know, majority, which is a peaceful religion.

What's going on there? What's going on in China with the Muslim minority there? Or, for example, may I add, like, sorry to say, but what's happening in Palestine as well?

I don't want to paint any large-scale endeavor with a brush that's, let's say, dipped in the blood of its worst excesses. I don't think that's helpful because then we're all... irredeemable in some real sense.

I think it's much wiser for us to see what we can jointly celebrate and see if we can manage that in something like a spirit of ignorance and hope. You know, because one of the things I learned a long time ago, it was very helpful for me as a clinician, was that if everything wasn't perfect around me all the time, it was probably at least in part because I was much less than I could conceivably be. And one of the things I learned from Carl Jung, who's a great thinker, was that what you need most will be found where you least want to look. And yes, well, and it's almost by definition, right? Because you can imagine that you're most likely to be most ignorant about what you're most afraid of and most contemptuous of.

And so by definition, that's the last place you want to look. And if you're an advocate of a given religious faith, one of the last places you might want to look is in the wisdom of an alternative faith. I agree. So, but... But, you know, who are you to be such a committed advocate of a faith that's so complex that there's no way that someone like you can understand it?

And I mean that of your own faith. And so it's not so obvious that the stranger you think is the devil doesn't have something to say. I get you. But I once heard you quote Carl Jung because obviously you mentioned him a lot in your books. And I learned a lot from you about Carl Jung.

Yeah. That he stated that, you know— The West are technological giants but moral dwarfs. In comparison, yes.

Yeah, yeah. And that's the problem all over the world increasingly, right? We're technological giants but moral midgets.

To some extent. But what I was going to say here is that... Going back to Carl Jung here, because for example, and going back to the issue of purpose, yeah, if we're speaking about purpose, I watched your discussion with Sam Harris, and you were speaking about your...

The last one? No, there was one that you've done, I don't know what, it wasn't that famous, you weren't speaking to him like this, but there was one point of it which really was like, it gave me an insight into your, I don't want to be a psychologist here, right? But maybe I dare say it gave me an insight into your psychological state. Because Sam Harris, he said to you, he said, your conception of pragmatism, that truth is malleable or whatever, it's not one capital T truth like correspondence theory.

Well, there's no, I said more that I don't believe that the most fundamental truth is objective in the scientific sense, and I don't think it can be. Not that objective truth isn't useful. So in that sense, your perspective, and you know this as well, is more epistemologically pragmatist rather than correspondence theory, right?

So correspondence theory says there's one truth out there. I think correspondence theories have to be nested under pragmatic theories in some real sense. So you're saying the same thing as the American pragmatist said, Charles Pierce and William Jenkins. Yes, very much.

So what I was going to say with that, he said, if you believe in this, it will be at your peril. And you know what you said? You responded, you retorted, you said, it has been at my peril. You said it has not.

Let's focus on this because this is actually deep. You said it has been at my peril. Why would...

Everything's at your peril, man. No, no, no, no, no. But think about this for a second because I heard your voice and these words stuck in my mind, yeah?

You said it has been at my peril. Now, let me submit something to you today. Could it be that it's at your peril because if you don't believe in truth with a capital T in the correspondence theory sense that there is a God and that's a true statement just like 2 plus 2 equals 4 is a true statement.

Just like the heliocentric model is a true statement. In that sense, there is a God out there. And he created the world.

He created you. He's sustaining the universe. He is maintaining the universe. There is a true statement and that is in a correspondence theory sense.

If you don't have that level of certainty, then you will end up being in existential angst and you will end up being depressed. Because that's what the Quran says. The Quran says, وَمَنْ أَعْرَضَ عَنْ ذِكْرِي فَإِنَّ لَهُ مَعَيْشَةً ضَنْكًا Whoever swerves away from my remembrance will have a depressed.

life. So for us... Well, I think almost by definition, when you veer from a path oriented towards the highest unity, then you fall apart. It's by definition.

Now, I don't know what that means specifically with regards to a correspondence theory, because the correspondence theorists tend to be more oriented towards a materialist viewpoint. That doesn't seem to me to work out very well when discussing something like God. Do I think that we strive towards a higher unity, that that unity is real and that it's necessary?

No, but there's no contradiction in having correspondence theory in dualism or idealism. It doesn't have to be materialism because that would indicate the truth of pre-empiricism. Well, I would say then my answer to that is that I try to act as if that's true.

And I think I say I act as if it's true because I don't, I'm not in a position to make any final judgments in some real sense. But I am in a position to stake my life on certain faith-based propositions. That's what you can do.

That doesn't mean you're right, but that's what you have at your disposal. And so I am trying to do that to feel the proper way forward in this spirit of... let's say playful unity yes and to put that above all else which is partly why i also said that i did it at my peril the thing is what i would say is that if you take the proposition that truth is utility yeah and what is useful is that which is true that's basically the american pragmatist stance if you take that if well it's not exactly not exactly well there see i think that's what charles pierce said almost by word i know i know i know yeah um the pragmatists are more like engineers which is well you can't build a perfect bridge because what do you know you can't build anything perfect but you can build a bridge that's a bridge insofar as it will stand up and allow you to walk across it for 400 years and so and then then the notion there is well it's not perfect it doesn't correspond precisely to the ultimate nature of reality let's say but it's good enough to move you from point a to point b and so yes but going back to victor frankl and the idea of meaning yeah what i'm saying is I know you're a psychoanalyst.

From the Quranic paradigm, this will not be enough. Meaning, based on your current paradigm, according to the Islamic diagnosis, you will be depressed. Why?

Because your purpose is not strong enough. Do you see the point? Yes, well, that's probably true. I know that sounds a bit intrusive, so I do apologize for that.

No, I don't think it is intrusive. Because I think if you deviate from that orientation towards unity, then I know this from a psychological perspective. If you deviate from orientation toward the highest unity, which you might think about as the highest goal, two things happen.

One is... You experience less positive emotion, so joy and enthusiasm and engagement, because positive emotion is experienced in relation to a goal, not as a consequence of achieving it. So if you're pursuing the highest goal, then you're celebrating most intently. And then if the goal you're pursuing isn't unified, then it's multiplicitous, and then you're confused and anxious and unstable and depressed.

So I would say that's true by definition. What I was reading recently, I've read all your books. And I even read some of your peer-reviewed work. Because when I was going to speak to you, then I said, you know what, I'm going to do my homework. So I read everything.

One of the things that you said one time in The Maps of Meaning, you started off the book by saying, when you were a young lad, I don't know how young you were, you said that you found the doctrines of Christianity incomprehensible and absurd. And you also said that you had some kind of issue with Christianity. of the Genesis narrative and how incongruent it was with scientific narratives.

You went to a pastor, you said, or a church cleric or something, and then you left the church. Now, I've got a question. Do you still have the same position or have you changed your position? Well, I've changed my position a lot.

I was only 13 then, you know, and I was caught up in the battle, you know, insofar it was manifested in me when I was 13, I was caught in the battle between enlightenment rationality and traditional narrative belief i had no idea how to reconcile those two things you feel like you can do that now i'm doing my best to reconcile yes and i think well i certainly can do it a lot more than i did when i was 13 let me give you an example right this this point when you were 13 i think you were thinking straight i'll be sorry to be very straight it's hard to believe that someone is disagreeable with you as you know because someone with an iq 180 or whatever you have, yeah, someone of your intelligence. When you were 13, you probably had an IQ of, I don't know, 120 or something, yeah. So you were operating like my friend over here, Ali Dawes, on his level, at the age of 13. But what I was going to say was that, you know, the reason why I think you were...

Because look at the Trinity, for example. Look at the schisms. Now, this goes to your specialism.

The idea of three all-powerful entities, that Jesus is all-powerful, that the Father is all-powerful, the Son is all-powerful, and the Holy Spirit is all-powerful, but there's not all... there's not three all-powerfuls, there's one all-powerful. You have one ultimately willing being, which is a person, which is Jesus, and another person, which is ultimately willing, which is the son. The Quran says about this, it says, مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِنْ وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِذَا لَذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلَ بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ In chapter 23 verse number 91, it says that, Allah has not taken any son, and He did not have any creator with Him. Had that been the case, they would have...

stripped one another for what they would have competed and tried to outstrip one another for power meaning this idea of three all-powerful persons is unintelligible to say the least the idea that Jesus Christ exhibits two natures for I know that there are schisms and there's differences of opinion among Christians but the fact that you have this human nature where Jesus is walking and he sees the tree and he can't eat from the tree he doesn't know that the tree is in season or not Although he doesn't know when the hour is or whatever it may be. The Quran says it very clearly. Him and his mom used to eat food.

This proposition that they're limited and unlimited at the same time is a contradiction. It's an affront to logic. This will cause you cognitive dissonance.

Because if you want to be a rational actor, and you want to be... See, that's the thing. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to be a rational actor.

But you do when you do your scientific experiments. That's true. So why do you separate the two things? Because rationality should be subordinated to something above it. And I'm trying to subordinate myself to that.

And so my reaction to what you're saying is that this isn't an insult. I'm telling you what my reaction is. Please say it. It's not even a criticism.

Of course. I find that discussion, as soon as it started, I found that less interesting than what we were doing before. It was harder for me to focus on. And I think the reason for that is that It transforms to some, and I'm not saying this isn't necessary at some times, but it transforms the transcendent into...

Something like an intellectual and propositional discussion. And so in some sense, we're debating perhaps not the fine points of theology because they're more like the blunt points of theology. But there's something about that that isn't what I want to do with you. Yes.

You know, and it isn't that it's not necessary. So let me flip it around to some degree. So one of the things I'm very curious about is, obviously, the figure of Christ is contentious.

Yes. And so... The Jews don't know what to make of Christ in some fundamental sense because he seems like the last, he seems like a continuation of the prophetic tradition in some real sense, plus he was Jewish, so that makes things complicated. And then, of course, the Christians put the figure of Christ as central in some real sense, but that begs the question of the relationship between Christ and God.

And then in the Muslim community, Christ is also a central figure. And so... I'm curious about that.

And we could say we have doctrinal differences about what constitutes that centrality. It's like, fair enough. And I would also not say that I understand what that centrality means. So one of the ways I would understand that, let's say, is that in the Western tradition, and I don't know to what degree this is true in the Muslim tradition, one of the attributes of what Christ is, psychologically is the logos and so if we're engaged in dialogue which is dual logos then we're embodying the spirit of something like mutual enlightenment and that's then the presence of that spirit in the in the genuine confines of temporal reality right it's something like the infinite descending to the finite to illuminate us and to the degree that we can have a dialogue in good faith, which is also a religious notion, then we can engage in that process of dialogos, and that transforms and redeems us. And then when I say, well, do I believe that?

I say, well, it isn't just that I believe it as a proposition. It's that I can tell when it's happening. And so can you, I think. It's like, you're going to see that this conversation will ebb and flow, you know?

And some of the time it's going to grip you. You think we're at the heart of the matter, and sometimes your attention is going to wander. your attention is going to wander when we're off the path. So I would say that to the degree that you and I are communicating, this is a religious way of thinking about it, is that we're doing our best to embody the spirit of the logos. And if that's working, then we're making progress.

And I know that in the Western tradition, that's part of what has been conceptualized as the fundamental attribute of the figure of Christ. And I know that Christ is central in the Muslim tradition. And so one of the things I would want to know is not how we...

differ doctrinally yeah because i don't even think i'm qualified to debate you on that we've got the guy here well jonathan might have some things to say but but what i would like to to know instead is why do you believe that the figure of christ is central in some sense or maybe i've got that wrong although i don't think so why do you think the figure of christ is central both to the muslim faith and the christian faith and what do you think that says about what we share in common you Because I really don't understand that. It's a mystery to me. Okay. So Jesus Christ, if secular historians will look at him and differ on his existence or not, the majority, to be fair, do believe he existed, right?

Even secular historians, atheists and agnostics and whatever it may be, right? It's the simplest explanation. Yeah, it's the simplest. Of course, yeah. So I believe that, first of all, Jesus Christ existed, which in the modern age is worth noting, right?

Muslims actually, Muslims are the only other major world religion who believe in Jesus Christ. as the Messiah, as the prophet. Right. He had the virgin birth. This is a strange thing.

So we should definitely be trying to sort that out. All right. So this is the first point of commonality.

We believe in Jesus Christ. We believe in his miracles. That he cured the blind with God's permission. That he raised the dead with God's permission.

We believe that he even, you know, he created some things which in the gospel of Thomas and Amish in the Bible, like, you know, but for example, the clay bird and so on, that he blew into it and it became an actual bird. That he cured the leper with God's permission. We believe that he was one of the mightiest human beings that have ever lived on the earth. And we believe that his mother was the best woman who ever lived on the earth. The Quran actually explicitly says that.

Well, that seems like a good starting point. Right. And so that is the first thing we believe. When we look at the Quranic verses relating to Jesus Christ, we don't look at those metaphorically.

No orthodox Muslim normatively looks at those in an etiological way. It's not etiology for us. It's history. So we believe that this is actually historical. That's the first thing.

And the reason why I mention that to you is because... I listen to all of your biblical series. I think a lot of Muslims have.

And you know that right here. A lot of people like it. Because obviously...

Yeah, strangely enough. And no, it's not very strange if you know the Qur'an. Because the Qur'an actually tells us to go to the people of the book and to listen to them.

And you'll find in exegesis, like for example, Tafsir ibn Kathir, like one of the staple exegesis of the Qur'an. They use biblical verses all the time. Let's go to the people of the book. Let's see what information they have.

At-Tabari mentions what you call Isra'iliyat, which is basically... passages from the Bible, passages from the Torah and so on like that, from the biblical tradition and from the Torah. So it's not abnormal for Muslim people to be interested in Christian explanations.

That's been going on for 1,300 years. That's the first thing. The second thing is that, because symbolism is important, and you've mentioned, for example, Egyptian symbolism.

You mentioned, for example, Orasis and, I don't know, Isis and all this. Not that Isis. I know you're thinking, he already thinks I'm a hooligan.

This man is, but you know, the Egyptian god, I have to make that very clear. And so on, yeah. So my question would be therefore, before we talk about symbolism, because a symbol can be something, you can have a symbol and an expression of something which exists at the same time.

For example, you can have something which is not metaphoric, because you can't have a metaphor and non-metaphoric. But you can have a symbol and something which doesn't exist. For example, I say that you are a symbol for Western, I don't know, whatever it is. intellectualism yeah possibly i mean this debate is jordan pearson a symbol for western debate it um and he exists now here's the point like you know you know that there are central doctrines to christianity like the crucifixion the ascension the resurrection and all the all the above right these are doctrines how do we look at these doctrines because the reason i'm asking i think you are qualified or at least you have some because you did mention in your lectures that you are taking the approach of the alexandrian school which is like origin of alexandra and his jewish teacher philip and these kinds of people who take what you call the spiritualizing text they spiritualize the text they were known the alexandrian school was known for spiritualizing the text and they were aberrational in that in that sense and that's why they were one of the reasons why they were seen as heretics by the by all i think all the churches the eastern i think just origin but the the origin said some things which are heretical but he has massive influence on church fathers that are respected but to your point yeah the the the Let's say the notion that facts have meaning, that is something that as Christians we should believe.

God created the world with a meaningful structure, so the world lays itself out in a way that when we see it, we can see the meaning. Exactly, and this is something which all types of Christians will agree with, Catholics will agree with it, Eastern Orthodox and Protestants. All of them will say you must believe in these doctrines as happening.

You cannot believe in them as symbol. You cannot believe. So the reason why this actually is...

So when I hear something like that, then... the question that arises for me is what do you mean happening and so so let me just unpack that a little bit so i did a lecture last night at the apollo on the story of cain and abel yes and one of the things that i proposed was that not only did that story happen but it's it's always happening yes it always happened it's happening right now and it's always going to happen into the future and so I would say to some degree the mere reduction of these profound stories to a historical reality is an underestimate of their truth because they're a strange kind of truth because they're the truth that always happened and is happening now and always will happen. So the Cain and Abel story, for example, you have a story of the eternal battle between something like the spirit of joyful and appropriate.

sacrifice, which characterizes Abel, and the spirit of resentful resentment against the structure of existence as a consequence of thrownness and the shaking of the fist at God. And that's always happening because for all of us, you know, we look at our lives and we think, well, should we be happy to be alive? Should we be grateful to be alive? And the answer to that is often, but not always.

And if you put someone in the position of Job and He's being tortured to death by fate and tragedy and catastrophe and malevolence. He might well come to a point where he's motivated to take the resentful path and shake his fist at God. And we have those spirits inside of us warring constantly. And so then when I look at a story like Cain and Abel, I think, well, the question, did that happen, begs the question, what do you mean by happen?

Because when you... are dealing with fundamental realities and you pose a question, you have to understand that the reality of the concepts of your question when you're digging that deep, are just as questionable as what you're questioning. You know, so people say to me, do you believe in God?

And I think, okay, there's a couple of mysteries in that question. What do you mean do? What do you mean you?

What do you mean believe? And what do you mean God? And you say as the questioner, well, we already know what all those things mean, except belief in God. And I think. No, if we're going to get down to the fundamental brass tacks, we don't really know what any of those things mean.

And so, for me, belief, for example, is often reflected not so much in proposition as it is in action. If I want to know what you believe, I could ask you, and hopefully you have some idea about what you believe, but I'd rather see what you do. Can I push back a little bit with this? Because, for example, when I was reading your book, your newest book actually this time, yeah? 12 More Rules.

They're very good books, by the way. I mean, I recommend them. Thank you, sir.

Honestly. Buy them if you haven't already bought them. I would specifically recommend the 12 Rules for Life. Because 12 More Rules, I have some criticisms of it. But it's good.

It's a good book. But one thing you did say about it. It's really hard to believe that you're disagreeable. Really, yeah?

So one thing you mentioned in the book, you were talking about some psychological theory, which I don't forget. I forget what it is right now. You mentioned something. You said this, you know, the problem with this such and such theory is that it doesn't have any evidence. Full stop.

Categorical. All this, what you're doing now, you didn't mention that. You didn't say, well, it depends on what you mean by this.

It depends on what you... Sorry to say, yeah. But it depends on what you mean by this.

It depends on what you mean. You become postmodern all of a sudden. It's like you've become now.

Yeah, that's a definite. Oh, yeah, that's a definite. Look, I think that's partly why the postmodern critique in some sense was inevitable is because we started to dig down into something like, say, the meaning of stories because that's really where the postmodernists got their impetus because the postmodern literary theorists, sorry to drag this up, but it's relevant.

They hid a mystery which was, well, if you read a given text, story, or even a paragraph, and you get a hundred people to offer their opinion on it, in some way you get a hundred different opinions. And you can tell that if you assign students to write an essay, let's say. And so then a problem emerges is if, well, if there's a hundred different opinions, and some of them even appear to oppose one another, how do you know what the true significance is of the text?

And then worse, how do you even know that there is a true significance? And then you think, okay, well, that's a major problem. And then here's a worse problem. Imagine you have an assemblage of texts, like the biblical corpus, let's say, which is really a library, and it's in some sense canonical, right? Well, if you can't decide on the fixed meaning of even a given paragraph, How in the world can you make the statement that this selection of text, which are much more complicated than just paragraphs, is somehow canonical?

Now, the answer to that is, this is the answer. We don't know. Now, the problem with the postmodernists wasn't that they figured out that this was a mystery, because not only is this the mystery of textual interpretation, which is a major mystery, how do we understand a text?

But it's also the mystery of perception, because at the same time, people who are investigating perception, Jonathan has been talking about this with John Vervaeke, a cognitive scientist, at the same time, scientists on the perceptual front in AI labs and neuroscientists, we're discovering that it's so complicated to look at the world, which is to interpret the world, let's say, that it isn't obvious that it's even possible, which is partly why we don't have autonomous robots. They can't see the world. Now, it's easy for us because we just look at it, but that's not so easy.

And so, well, so what's the point of all this? Well, the point of all this is that if you delve into questions deeply enough, you do run into the problem of perception and the multitude and multiplicity of perception. And that's a real problem.

And so when I do something like I interrogate a question, well, the postmodern problem does emerge. Now, I've been trying to work out solutions to that, and Jonathan and I and John Vervaeke have been discussing this a lot. The postmodernists were correct, I think, in their diagnosis of the problem.

They leapt right to the idea that the way we solve the problem of perception is by exercising power. They just took a Marxist story and said, well, there's the solution. When you say they, who are you talking about in particular? Mostly the French intellectual types like Derrida and Foucault. I would disagree with this, by the way.

I don't think Derrida or Foucault took a Marxist position at all. Well, Jonathan, you want to have that for a bit? But that's not my fight.

It's a worthless victory for me. Are you sure you want to talk about that? No, no, no.

I don't care. Okay, well, we can either delve into that or not. Let me just say something, André, about what you were saying.

I think that... When there's this question of, do you believe in God? I think one of the problems that Jordan, no, the difficulty that Jordan faced was faced with a modern Protestantism, which was very propositional.

And it was like, just, I believe, and it's just a bunch of things that you believe in in terms of thinking. And I do think that what Jordan is trying to grasp at and trying to understand is actually probably closer to something that most traditional Muslims would believe, which is that If you say that you submit to God, but you don't submit to God, then that word is empty. That I agree with. Yes. The question is, why is it empty, right?

If you said the words, why is it still empty? And so I think that what he's grasping at is to find a more encompassing, it's like, stop asking me if I believe in God, watch me. Yeah, okay. No, but I get what you're saying.

But what I'm saying is this, is that the attitude that you have towards scientific investigation, is that which is more congruent with a correspondence stereotype. Yes. So you simply ask the question that, by the way, the Quran asks. And one of the central questions the Quran asks us to ask Christians and Jews is, Bring your evidence if you're truthful.

This is the central question that Muslims are asked to ask. The same question that you, as a scientist, ask, we have to ask as well. And I'm using the word ask a lot here.

What I'm saying is, This is where the cognitive dissonance may come in. It does come in. That is part of what's torn the West apart on the basis of the Enlightenment versus the religious tradition, to the degree that that's a conflict. Just to add to this point, for example, going back to the origin of Alexandria, the origin of Alexandria, because he has this hermeneutical dilemma. He has a hermeneutical dilemma, right?

He doesn't know what to do with what verse. Is he going to spiritualize it, metaphorize it, or is he not going to do that? He was asked by an apologist called Celsus. He said, what do you say of the crucifixion? And he responds to an effect to say that not everything was true, what happened in the crucifixion.

The point is that when you open the can of worms of homoerotical spiritualization or exegetical or, you know, metaphorization, yeah? When you open that can of worms, what is left of Christianity is basically mythological. Now, then I will say, what makes this myth better than any other myth?

Why are we investigating the myth of Christianity and not, for example, the myth of Hercules and Zeus? Why is the figure of Father and Son and the Holy Spirit more important to me than the Mithraic, would you call it, Trinity? Yeah, well, that's a postmodern question.

And you could take that even farther and say, well, why this story rather than that story at any level of story? And that is a central question. So how would you answer? Because why did you, for example, you've done a biblical lecture, right? So why have you done a biblical lecture, not a lecture on Zeus and this and all these other things?

Well, I have done lectures on other religious structures, particularly on... ancient Egyptian cosmology and on Mesopotamian cosmology. And I'm going to do a lecture on the Tao Te Ching. Sorry, do you consider the biblical narrative as having any level of superiority over the other mythologies? Well, okay, okay.

So let me try to address this psychologically. Oh, even he's interested in that. Well, yeah, because I am a Christian.

So I've been trying to understand. So I'll tell you one thing that clinical psychologists have learned. over the last hundred years, despite their doctrinal differences.

So there's many schools of clinical psychology, ranging from behaviorism, which is very practical and strategic, and has to do with micro-changes in action, to psychoanalytic theory, say on the Jungian side, which is more interested in dreams and large-scale transformations of the imagination, spans a huge range of philosophies and practical approaches. But there is one commonality. And it's emerged, I would say empirically. The behaviorists first discovered it. The behaviorists discovered that if someone was afraid of something and avoiding it, and the combination of those two things are important because there's lots of things you should be afraid of that you should avoid, like playing in traffic, because you'll just die if you go run out in the street.

But imagine that you're moving towards a necessary goal, and you're pretty committed to it, and something comes up that you're afraid of, and it stops you. And now you start to avoid. Okay, and then maybe that gives you an anxiety disorder.

It makes you depressed. Then the question is... What are you avoiding and why and what should you do about it? And what the behaviorists started to do was to expose people to small doses of what they were afraid of and get them to relax.

And the idea was, well, if you could learn to relax in the face of what you were afraid of, then the fear would go away. And maybe you had learned in some way to associate that with anxiety earlier. Now, it turned out that that worked.

But it also turned out that it worked even if you didn't relax. And so there wasn't a learning to be calm. And then the psychoanalyst said, now that's not going to work, behaviorists, because you'll expose someone to this little fear.

And because the true fear is much deeper, the fear will just reemerge somewhere else. They called that symptom substitution. And that didn't happen either, because what happened, weirdly enough, was that if you got someone to confront something they were afraid of voluntarily, then they got less afraid.

That was the first theory. Less afraid of a whole bunch of things. So a little courage generated more.

And that's a more accurate way of thinking about it. Turns out people didn't get less afraid. They got braver. And so their personality started to expand. So what you see often, one category of people who often develop anxiety disorders are dependent women.

And so those are women who've gone from sort of superordinate man to superordinate man who've never established. a sufficient individual identity, and maybe that comes back to haunt them later in life, and they develop an anxiety disorder, and maybe they're afraid to get into an elevator. So you can teach them to confront the elevator, and to get in it, and to take it, and then they'll go home and have a fight with their husband.

And it's because they're braver, and often the husband and the rest of the family will resist this woman's attempt to become more courageous, because they know what's going to happen if it's successful. But what that is what you see is you see generalization of bravery and that's and every psychological school knows this. Okay, so now you asked me a theological question So I'm going to address that so I've been trying to understand from a psychological perspective for example why people have been gazing on the figure of the crucifix for 2,000 years now not everyone and and Doctrinal differences apart. It's still many people for 2,000 years and that begs a question Obviously, there's something about that image that's gripping. Okay, so now you might think, why?

Well, why do people go to horror movies? Because that's pretty strange. Why in the world would you go be disgusted and terrified?

Because that's sort of the essence of horror. And the answer is, because there are terrifying and disgusting things about life. And maybe you should go confront them now and then voluntarily to get a little taste, so you can build a little courage and a little faith. And so...

At minimum, one of the things that the crucifixion story, the passion story represents is something like the sum of all possible tragedy. And so Jung pointed out that the passion narrative was an archetypal tragedy. And this is what he meant by that. Imagine that you took a bunch of stories that were tragic.

And so you could identify them all as tragic stories. A tragic story is something like something terrible happens to someone who doesn't deserve it. That's a tragedy.

So then imagine you have 10 stories about maybe someone got betrayed by his best friend and someone fall prey to a tyranny and someone died young and someone innocent was punished by a court and you'd think, oh, that's tragic. And then you took all those tragedies and you took the core of the tragedy and you made it into one story. And that's, in some sense, what the passion story is.

It's the sum of all possible tragedies insofar as that can be construed by the revelatory imagination. And then you might say, well, why gaze upon that? Well, the reason for that, there's a story in Exodus, it's in Numbers actually, where the Israelites are lost in the desert like we all are.

And people are losing faith because they're in the desert and, you know, and not... and not voluntarily in some true sense. And so they're losing faith. They're getting all fractious.

They're fighting. They're starting to worship false idols. They're falling apart.

And God gets irritated at that. And so he sends a bunch of poisonous snakes in to bite them. And you think, well, why would God do that? It's like, well, have you been alive?

You know perfectly well that if you're confused and lost and then you get bitter and disunited, that all you do is make things worse and that more snakes come up to bite you. It's like, that's life. And so the Israelites come to Moses and they say, you seem to be in quite nicely with God.

Do you want to ask him to call off the snakes? Like, we're sorry, get him to call off the snakes. And so Moses has it. chat with God, let's say, and God says, he doesn't call off the snakes. And so that's the thing about God is very often he doesn't call off the snakes, you know.

And he says instead to Moses that you have to make a staff. You have to cast a staff out of bronze and on the staff you have to place a serpent. And then all the Israelites have to go and look at the serpent. And if they look at the serpent, then they'll no longer be poisoned by the snakes.

And, and Then there's a section in the Gospels where Christ says something approximating that unless his figure be lifted up like the serpent in the desert, no one can be redeemed unless his figure is lifted up like the serpent in the desert. Which is a very strange thing to have happen, right? Because it's a reference to this very strange story that's ancient in a very strange context many thousands of years later. But can you imagine this? It's like, it's a bad thing to be confronted with snakes.

And there's a real reason that the symbol for medical transformation is a stake on a staff, right? And not just associated with the Judeo-Christian tradition. It's a much older idea than that.

And so, well, there's snakes, and that's bad, and you should look at them. But then there's something like the sum total of all possible snakes, and that would be all the terrible things that could happen to you in life. And then you could think, well, maybe you need a story that... encompasses that territory of terrible things that you can then look on and that's at least in part what the passion story represents. Now you can debate about whether or not it's a full account of the comprehensive tragedy of life but like I said I'm thinking about it psychologically.

Now there's more to it because around that story there's also a cloud of mythology of associated imagery and and one of those developed dreams is something like the harrowing of hell so not only does Christ die terribly despite not only being innocent but being good and being betrayed and being subject to tyranny and having to die before the eyes of his mother all of that but that's not enough that hell itself has to be confronted. I would say, well, is that true of your life? It's like, well, terrible things are going to happen to you, and you better be prepared.

And then you might think, well, that's too much. And if it's not too much, it's at least enough. And I would say, yeah, that'd be good to believe, but I don't think it's true, because you're actually going to have to do something like confront the reality, at least, of historical atrocity and human hell. Because that's part of your character too.

And in order to fully reveal what you could be, then you have to contend with all of that and you have to do it voluntarily. And so part of the reason I'm interested in that, the Christian story, let's say, is because that part of the story is where the rubber hits the road in some sense. It's like, well, that's your responsibility is to confront.

the catastrophe and hellish aspect of life forthrightly. And then the question is, is that transformative? And one answer is, what did Nietzsche say? You know, you can tell the character of a man's spirit by determining how much truth he can tolerate. It's a very interesting way of thinking about it.

This is a crushing weight, this notion, but life is going to throw its catastrophes at you, sometimes even if you're innocent. And if you're not, prepared, you know, in faith, well, you're going to fold and then it's going to be much worse. And how much do you have to face?

And the answer might be every bit of it. Do you know, on this point, thank you for that. I think that you've really expressed that in a very powerful way.

And the last comment that you made really was, reminded me of a prophetic saying of the Prophet Muhammad. He said, عَجَبًا لِأَمْرِ الْمُؤْمِنِ Wondrous is the affair of the believer. Wondrous is the affair of the believer. Wondrous is the affair of the believer. All of his affair is good.

And this is not afforded to anybody except for the true believer. If good happens to him, he is thankful. And if... Negative things happen to him, he's patient and he's thankful. Right, that's a hard thing to pull off, that last one.

The powerful thing is, and this is what Nietzsche was a great advocate for, ironically he's a father of postmodernism in a sense, but he was talking about human suffering as a positive thing for the resilience, or building of resilience in a human being. It goes back to the point of purpose. Yeah, well, you know, so here's another thing that psychologists have learned. So imagine that you take a group of people and you subject them to a difficult and onerous and stressful task. But you've allowed, you've set up the experiment so one group has that inflicted on them, let's say, and the other group decides to do it voluntarily, and then you measure as accurately as you can the pattern of physical and psychological response to those two conditions.

Thank you. What you find is that independent of the weight of the load, the attitude transforms the response. And so if you confront something difficult in the spirit of voluntary engagement, a whole different spirit takes hold of you.

And you can measure that physically. That's exactly what I remember Viktor Frankl saying. He was saying that those in the concentration camp who are most likely to survive are in fact those...

who made meaning out of... Well, Solzhenitsyn said something, I think, that was even more profound on that front. He said, he left ambiguous the issue of whether or not you were more likely to survive if you were a believer, let's say. Although he was struck, as an atheist, by the composure that true religious believers had in the gulag. But what he did say, more importantly, I would say even, was that if you were a genuine believer...

your soul was more likely to survive. And what he meant by that was many people in the Gulag camps became corrupted. And you can think about them as a microcosm of the world. People were under tremendous stress.

And one of the temptations was to become a trustee and participate in the system of oppression. And the camps in Russia could not possibly have sustained themselves if the prisoners weren't running them. And that's something to think about with regards to totalitarianism. And Solzhenitsyn did note, and it was transformative to him, that there were people of genuine religious faith who were immobile in their commitment to ethical action, even in the confines of the camp, even when faced with something like recant or die, and maybe not just you die, maybe your family die, or maybe you die in misery. And one of the things that transformed Solzhenitsyn And then the world, because his book transformed the world in large part, was his observation that this genuine striving to something like clarity of speech and a higher unity could withstand even the catastrophes of the Gulag camps.

I want to ask you a question just before we end. Yeah, sure. I've only politely sat here just to indicate we need to wrap up. Okay, I just want to ask one last question, because I'm interested in both of you in a sense, yeah? I said that, you know, from a Muslim perspective, you have...

the question that we're asked to ask is bring the evidence yeah if I were to bring reasonable evidence which would satisfy some kind of probabilistic reasoning that the prophet Muhammad we believe is the final prophet right that he was a true prophet would you be willing to become a Muslim I wouldn't um I wouldn't dispute a priori the idea that Muhammad was a true prophet But I don't understand what that means. So this is the way I'm going to look at this psychologically again. People are granted revelations, and it's obviously the case, let's speak empirically, that the revelation of Muhammad united a fractious society.

And so it was a uniting revelation. Now, how to conceptualize, but it's not a universally uniting revelation, at least not yet or not now, because... We're not all united, so why? Well, maybe we didn't understand the revelation properly.

That's one possibility. Is the presupposition what you're saying, that unity is the ultimate objective? Well, not exactly, you know, because then you have the problem of uniformity that you pointed out, right? No, no, even the idea of unity itself. I mean, is there not...

Well, we talked about... Okay, so we talked about... No, unity is a great... Just to be clear, I believe that unity is a great objective, but I don't think it's the all-defining one. For example, if there's a...

if there is an injustice that is so great that disunity is more appropriate, then I can imagine situations where disunity is probably better than unity. Right. I'm sure you can as well.

For example, like in Soviet Union. That would be a false unity in some sense, right? Yeah, exactly.

Well, that's why you wanted to address the elephant under the carpet right away. We can't have a false peace. Exactly. And we can't incorporate things we can't yet incorporate. Yes.

The reason why I'm bringing this to your attention is because I feel like it's my duty as a Muslim, especially in the mosque, right, to tell you that... As Muslims, we believe that the previous dispensations, as they were like Christianity and Judaism, they are part of our faith, in a sense. Not in the sense of believing the doctrines and all of that kind of thing, like we obviously don't believe in the original sin or the resurrection, the crucifixion, all this kind of thing.

We don't believe in any of that. Or the Trinity, of course. But in the sense that we do believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in all of the Old Testament prophets, most of them, if not all of them, you know, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and so on. And we believe that each prophet was sent. was two things.

The message... which is to believe and worship in one God, and some kind of evidence to indicate their truthfulness. So with, for example, Moses and Jesus, we know what their miracles are, splitting the sea, and we believe that actually happened historically, right?

We have no qualms with that. We don't have this kind of materialistic viewpoint on the issue. With Muhammad, we believe that because he was sent to all of humanity, he had to have an evidence base that would satisfy not just...

the eyes. In other words, it wouldn't be just something that could be witnessed. It would be something that can be interrogated and scrutinized for all times and places. So it would be an auditory revelation. In this case, it's the Qur'an.

The Qur'an means a recitation, yeah? So the central message of the Qur'an is tawheed, or the idea of worshipping one God and believing in one God, as we've mentioned. But there are some, there is an attempt in the Qur'an to challenge, like for example, there's something called the falsification test, or the inimitability test.

The Quran says, for example, that try and find a contradiction within the Quran. Had it been from other than God, لَوَجَدُ فِيهَا اخْتِلَفًا كَثِيرًا we would have found many contradictions. This inimitability challenge is to produce something as sophisticated as it in terms of the linguistic composition as well as the structural component.

This is very interesting because now even Western academics like Angelica Neurith and others have said that this challenge has not been met. So German... orientalist she's recently said this um so this is another thing then you have a range of prophecies for example like if you look at deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 21 it's mentioned in the bible that one of the mark hallmarks of a true prophet is that or a false prophet is that when they talk about the future that it will be false but the quran makes very specific very specific prophecies about the future for example in chapter 30 verse 2 to 4 it says you that the Romans had been defeated.

At that time, there was the Sassanid Empire and the Roman Empire, and they were in war with each other. And that from three to nine years, that they would defeat the enemy, you see. It gave very specific timelines. It gave very specific...

And this was a very risky type of prediction. Because if you got it wrong, then it would endanger and undermine the entire prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad. But it did happen.

And in fact, you'll find historical things, which are not even in the Quran. That Rome was defeated? That Rome... No, the...

that the Romans had been defeated by the Persians in a battle. And so it's mentioned in, for example, the Chronicles of the Theophanies, which is a primary source material outside of the Quran and Sunnah. You can find it now, it's even translated into English.

He clearly mentions that eight years after this particular prediction took place, it did happen like that. So we have a range of predictions, even that relate to the current day. The Prophet said that the barefooted Arab, there will be...

competing for the highest building. That sexually transmitted diseases would be proliferated as a result of people having intercourse outside of marriage and that this would be something that would be diseases that had never been there in the past. The interest-based economy that we live in is mentioned by the Prophet Muhammad who said in the future interest will be everywhere.

Whoever does not consume it he will not be able to evade its dust. So this is another thing. So for example, you've got a range of prophecies where Islam will spread country by country. Where, you know, this is mentioned. He's going to go, there's a hadith that says, زُوِيَ لِيَ الْأَرْضِ That the earth has been expanded for me. فَرْأَيْتُمَا شَرِقَهَا وَمَغَرِبَهَا I saw its west points and east points.

وَإِنَّ أُمَّتِي سَيَبْلُغُ مُلْكُهَا And my nation will reach its points. مَا زُوِيَ لِي مِنْهَا What was projected and ascending east and west. If you look at the Islamic expansion.

I mean, Barnaby Rogerson. who is a historian. He said that the similitude of the Muslims going eastward and westward and conquering the amount of countries that they conquered in that early period, which you can read in the book that I've given you, is like Eskimos taking over Russia and America.

That's what he said, Barnaby Rogerson. On the point of prophecies, even people like Edward Gibbons, they agree that the prophecies of the Quran had been met. So I have to ask.

So I don't... I don't understand the question exactly. He wants to know if you'll convert to Islam. No, I'm saying that.

No, that wasn't. I mean, that's the question. Well, look, I would say to some degree, it's not up to me. No, no, but my question was, just to remind you, the question was, if I gave you evidence that would satisfy a certain level of probabilistic. No.

So you wouldn't. No, because that isn't how I evaluate the situation. How would you evaluate it?

This is the crux. Well, I'm a Muslim enough to have been invited to your mosque. No, no, you're always invited. No, no, but I mean this specifically.

I mean this very specifically, you know. I don't think in some sense... It's a very complicated problem.

Okay. You know, when people meet me on the street, they'll say things like, I met a couple of Orthodox Jews in New York, and they said to me on the street that they called me Rabbi, which was a hell of a thing to hear, you know. And so, and then I have Muslim people who are listening to my biblical lectures and they say, yes, yes, more than that. And, you know, they say, well, Peterson doesn't know it yet, but he's really a Muslim.

And, and, and that's very, that's an honor, you know, just like it was an honor to be approached by these Orthodox Jews. And that, that hasn't only happened once. And I've had lots of correspondence with people. The same thing has happened with Orthodox Christians, and to some degree the Catholics, and less or so the Protestants.

And so I don't know exactly what to make of that. We talked about this a little bit, and let's talk about proof. Well, for me, the proof of faith is the attractiveness of its adherence. And that's something to think about, right? Well, are you a shining example of the Muslim faith?

Well, how hard do you shine?