Self-Inquiry and Inner Freedom

Hi, my name is Fritzie Horstman and welcome to Compassion in Action. My guest today is Byron Katie. Byron Katie is the author of the work, and here's a bio of Byron Katie. In 1986, at the bottom of a 10-year spiral into depression and self-loathing, Byron Katie woke up one morning in a state of joy. She realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered, but that when she questioned them, she didn't suffer, and that this is true for every human being. Her simple yet powerful process of self-inquiry, which she calls the work, consists of four questions and the turnaround, which is a way of experiencing the opposite of what you believe. Byron Katie has been bringing the work to millions of people for more than 30 years. Her books include the best-selling Loving What Is, now in a revised edition, I Need Your Love, Is That True? , A Thousand Names for Joy, and a mind at home with itself. For more information, visit thework.com. I'd also like to read Byron Katie's invitation. She writes, an invitation to inquiry. Welcome to the work. I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered. But when I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer. And that this is true for every human being. Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment. That joy is in everyone, always. And I invite you not to believe me. I invite you to test it for yourself. Byron Katie. Byron Katie, welcome to Compassion in Action. Hi, Fritzie. Hi, Katie, how are you? Hi, oh, just so grateful for your good work in this world with those prisons. Oh, what a privilege, huh? Right? Oh. Yes, and what a privilege to be here with you. Thank you. I've been doing the work for the past couple of days. to get ready with you and i got to see my greatest hits of my of my painful thoughts and and what a gift you know they're just i just know anything like a self-inquiry it's a self-inquiry oh my goodness yeah and the wisdom is right there right there and i i'm gonna just give you a couple of the thoughts I came up with. And then my turnarounds just to launch the conversation, because I really want the men and women in prison to get a handle on how every thought that comes through, if it's painful, is not the truth. Yeah. If it's painful, yeah, we can just together make this just as clear as possible. possible for them to understand how yes who understands something that we can both speak to so it's so simple but it's it doesn't seem possible and yet yes it is yeah uh i've done your work i i met you and worked with you 20 years ago right when i was pregnant and These past three days, I really just got it. I just, just got it. And wow, and wow. So here's a couple of the complaints. The complaints, I wrote down the complaints. One of the complaints was, this person annoys me because he complains a lot. Well, who's complaining? I'm complaining about this person complaining. So who's complaining a lot? Wow, just that, so simple. And it wakes us up. not so easily understood. Like you have this, like the last couple of days, you just get it. But boy, this, yeah. It's, it's, it's grace. Yes. And it, things are a little different now. Another of my greatest hits was with my ex-boyfriend, and he betrayed me, right? He betrayed me. I keep running the script that he's betraying me. Who's betraying who? He's gone. He's in the past. This is 40 years ago. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So. powerful. Yeah. And it changes everything. And, and, and, you know, one more, um, she's violent. Now my thoughts about her are violent, right? So who's being violent? Who's being violent here? But so it's basically everything that goes through the transom. needs to be looked at if it's painful. I mean, I think all of them, but the big ones are, look what he did to me, look what she did to me. Yeah, and how do we react when we believe the thought? We end up in prison and we can justify it and wonder how did we get here? Yeah. Yes, and so with prison, some of the most painful thoughts, I think, for what I've been... What I've been witnessing is I'm no good. I'm a bad person. So, and I've had those thoughts too, right? So. Yeah, they're universal. Yeah, yeah. And no new stressful thoughts are universal. And then the ego, you know, it. attaches to whatever will give it the identity that is going to lock it in. Yes. And who would I be without that thought? I'm a bad person. And then that turnaround, so powerful. I'm a good person. And the ego would just repel from that. No, I'm in prison. bad person and ah but no i'm a good person just hang in just ponder that you know just find one one good thing about you one thing you did today right down to you know for me it's i brushed my teeth i'm a good person now we can start with the with with the personal when we're just so locked into I'm a bad person. And I spent so many years working in prisons with those guys and occasionally women's prisons and teenage lockups. And what a privilege. Yes, yes. I truly believe they are the critical agents of change in the world. Because when they get it... We can look at the people, yes, and we can look at... There are people not in prison that are living in the prisons of the mind. And prison is prison and no way out. that they can find and we get desperate and then we we end up and you know behind with real bars and or or just suffer the prison of the mind but we can be in prison and free ourself from prison and i've seen it happen over and over and over and some some of the people i've worked with in prisons Most of my time is spent in men's prisons, but I've seen them get free and then become teachers of the work and lead circles. of self-inquiry. And the more that person leads that group, the more deeply their mind runs and the freer they get. And then that becomes contagious and contagious. And yeah. Yeah. And they get to see when other people are not free and then helping them find their freedom. Yeah. it gives them a whole new life, a whole new life. I've seen people wanting to go back to prison for their fellows, you know, their friends, because they're free in or out of prison. So they can go in and help and support those that they become so close to. Grateful for. Yeah, so I have a thought that I think we need to address here, which is they killed my son. Okay, so is this yours or just simple? No, it's not. But I have a painful thought about my son. It's that I've hurt my son. Okay. So, when you are considering, I kill my son, what you mean is, I really hurt my son, like something like he's scarred for life. Yes, I have traumatized my son. That's the thought that is the most painful thought I have ever had in my life. Okay, so let's work through that. So, what is the situation? That comes to your mind when you think the thought you traumatized your son. An anchor there in that situation, that time and place where you said what you said, you did what you did toward your son. What is the situation? There could be a thousand, but anchor in one that comes to mind. What comes to mind is we're sitting in the car and he's playing with the phone. I'm working on navigating and I'm getting distracted and stressed out driving. So I pull over and I yell at him and I send so much anger and vitriol and disgust and hate to him. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So be there in that situation. Witness you, feel that, look at your son. Is he cowering? Is he trying to apologize? Is he just quiet? Is he, just look at him, get really, really, really, really. Does he attempt to defend and you interrupt him? Just get in touch with whatever was there, just anchor in that situation then. You traumatized your son. Is it true? Look at him. Is he courageous? Did he argue back? Did he just go silent? How old was he? He was eight. Eight years old. He shut down. He shut down. Okay, shut down. And does he look at you? No, he's trying to escape in the car. He's just trying to be as still as possible. Okay. So he's trying to be as still as possible. You're both in the front seat. Yeah. You've traumatized your son. Is it true? Now, this is interesting because we can't know another person's mind, but the ego is so sure. I traumatized my son. So look at your son. Does he have a way of protecting himself? Does he go into his own world? There are things we can't know, but look at him. Is he looking at you? Is he looking away? Is he? I don't know that part. but I, and I don't know if I traumatized him. You're right. I don't know that. I. I know I traumatized myself. I do know that by doing that. I do know that. So rather than jumping ahead, notice how you react. Maybe you didn't have the thought, I traumatized my son, until years later. Now go to the place where it hit you, you traumatized your son. Maybe you heard it in a lecture or... or read it in a book or watched a movie when you had the thought, I've traumatized my son. Maybe it was your son not wanting to go to a school function and you had the thought, I traumatized my son. So find that moment when it came to you later in his life, that situation where you really You really locked into, I traumatized my son. I don't remember the first time, but I know it kept coming up when he would get reactive and mirror some of the things I had done to him. Okay. So he took on your behaviors as a way of communicating back to you and others in his life. So you traumatized your son. So anchor there where he's acting out in that situation. Listen to him respectfully. Just listen to him. Look at him. You traumatized your son. Notice how you react, what happens emotionally when you think the thought. I traumatize my son. I feel shame. I feel low. I feel bad. I feel like I'm a bad mother and sad. Yeah, you can't be sad. If you're not witnessing those images of the past in that situation where he's acting out. Yeah, I'm bringing all those images up right now. Do you see how the ego offers up proof? Takes the moment and then it shows the past, the past. past. Even if it's not the past, those images of the apparent past, those images of the past are brought up in that situation where your son is acting out and you're believing the thought, I traumatized my son. So be there now witnessing that. Now notice the difference between your thoughts. And your son. In other words, who would you be in that situation without the thought, I traumatized my son. Now, listen to him the way you could not do when he was that little, about eight-year-old in the car. Listen to your older son in that situation without those images of past, future. Listen, get connected. He's hurting. I want to help him. That's it. That's all I got. Yeah. Well, just listen. Yeah. You've got that. That's a lot. Now just listen. I don't hear that he's harming you physically. I don't hear any of that. Just listen. give him in that situation, what you couldn't give him growing up, like that little eight-year-old? And what is he saying? What do you hear him say? I can't figure it out. I don't know how to do it. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm stressed out. That's who you are without it. You're available. You're a mother. You're patient. You're listening. You're open. I traumatized my son. You see an opposite. Try I traumatized myself. I traumatized myself. Yeah, I've done that many times now. watching him grow up. And then you notice that little eight-year-old in the car, you were seeing these images of the future, of what he's going to do next, what he's going to say next. He's going to continue to interrupt you and move your focus when you're trying so hard to get focused. Yeah. And he wasn't necessarily doing that. He was just in the moment, just... saying what he's saying yeah just ego projects he's not gonna stop and it's remembering the past where he was just bothering you bothering you moving your focus yeah yeah well that wasn't him that was your ego flipping you out of past future watching that movie And your head, just like the adult, you know, this traumatized you. It's like, I traumatized my son, I traumatized myself. What are you noticing? What are you becoming aware of? This image of him traumatizing him has been a movie in my life for 10 or 12 years now, about 11 years now. And it is on replay and replay every time I think about myself as a mother. And I mean... Yes, so let's break the trauma. I traumatized my son. I traumatized myself. Now listen to your son in that situation where he doesn't know how to do it. He's telling you he doesn't know how to do it. He doesn't know. Okay, so be there now. And who would you be without the thought, I traumatized my son? Now just listen to him. You don't have to change him. You don't have to fix him. You don't have to show him the way. Nothing. Just don't traumatize your son. You know, I traumatized my son. I didn't traumatize my son. Who would you be without those thoughts? Now just see what it looks like not to be traumatized. Fritzie, listen to him. Notice. Other than what he's thinking and believing, he's okay, trying to find his way. He's telling you, I don't know how to do it. Yeah, and I'm just there for him. I'm just there for him. Without the trauma. Yes, yes, and I have a year left with him. I can do this now. I can. be with him for a full year without traumatizing him or myself. I can just be there with him. Now specifically, he's saying, as I recall, he's saying, I can't do this or I don't know how to do this. What was it he was saying? Yeah, he was doing a math problem and it was frustrating him and he was just really acting out or just... demonstrating his frustration. Yeah. Saying he didn't know how to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just let him have that. He's got a problem. Now, just silently, as we're sitting here together now, just silently, when you feel like he's open to it, not before, but when you feel he's open to it. Just say, I'd like to help you if you're open to it. Or you might say, How can I support you? I see how difficult this is for you. Now notice he might shut you down. He might just expect it. Yeah. You're living a life with your son without the trauma. Yeah, and I'm just showing up for him, and that's enough. That's all I can do. Gosh, they begin to trust us. And, you know, my children, they have no right to trust me. Do. This is not new work for me. Yeah. And they know math is my weakest. They trust if there's any way I can, or I can get them a tutor. Yeah, yeah. That would be up to them. I could offer a tutor. Yeah, and he's brilliant. And when he quiets down, he figures it out. There it is. When you quiet down, it's the oddest thing that happens. It's like you quiet down and he just runs out of steam and begins to notice that there's no trauma coming at him from you. Yeah, yeah. And it has been shifting, but this is... This is a really big piece that we're doing right now because... Big deal. Yeah. I learned that my children can find their way without me, that love is the power. And love for me is listening without interjecting or trying to save them. The ego really wants to do all that, though, doesn't it? Yeah, that I know mind. I know I can fix him. Well, we've had years of trying that, so maybe he can fix himself and I can just be here to support it. Wow, that is generosity, isn't it? It is. It's true generosity. It's compassion. It's generosity. It's listening. It's love. It's connection. It's just all those good things. It's mothering. It's connection. And connection, you say, is one of the keys here. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, just be there now. Look how connected. you are. He doesn't have to connect. Look how connected you are. And you haven't said or done anything to fix him. You just listen and you might say something like, just know I'm here for you. That idea of fixing him, right? That is such a painful idea. It is. And I transmitted that to him. That's where the word trauma comes from. You know, we have traumatized them. We've traumatized ourself. And then they carry on the tradition. And you can break that chain. I know, you know, I can do it, you can do it. Yeah, well, I feel much more empowered today to do it because I have a different awareness about it now. Now, what do you want in that situation where he has that math problem? I'm assuming math, that math problem, and he just can't do it, he thinks, and he's in that agitated state. What do you want him to think, say, feel, or do? I want him to do whatever he wants to do. I think that's it. I want him to figure it out if he wants to. Okay, now go back into who you were in that situation. Anchor there. Notice how you reacted. What did you say? What did you do when he's having that math problem? Oh, I wanted to control. I wanted to control everything and fix it and apply it and get under it. Okay. Yeah, I wanted it. I wanted it. Well, I wanted it to stop. I wanted him to stop his. Tantrum or whatever I... Okay. Now notice how you treat him when you think the thought, I want him to stop that tantruming and settle down and focus. Yeah. Notice how you react, what you say, what you do when he's in that state, in that situation. Yeah, I think it reminds me of my family back when my mother was yelling at me. There she is, living through you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, trauma. Yeah. Yeah. So you want him to stop his tantrum. So now just be still. Give him no advice, nothing. I want him to just be there with him, listening, watching him act out, listening, just being there, not trying to change him, not trying to fix him. I want him to stop his tantrum. Turn around. I want me to stop. My tantrum. Yeah. Trying to fix him, trying to force him to hear me, trying to have him. Yeah, just so much pain and violence. You know, I don't even think of it that way. It's like it feels justified. It feels superior. We think it's good mothering and being a responsible parent. And he's having no peace of that. No. Get out of my life, Mom. Get out. Yeah, he's got that eight-year-old in him. Eight-year-old all the way up to that, just like you do. So I want him to stop his tantrum, turn around. Now just be there with him. Anchor there. See him in your mind's eye. And then take this leap. I don't want him to stop his tantrum. I don't want him to stop his tantrum. Let him be. Just get connected. Look at your son. Notice his frustration, his heart, his... Just notice. I want him to stop his tantrum. I want me to stop my tantrum. Just let him be. And another turnaround, I don't want him to stop his tantrum. I don't want him to stop his tantrum. No, he can do what he needs to do. That's how he finds his way. It's how he has had to find his way. He's had to get maybe louder than you've been, more. protect his mind from listening to you and finding workable situations at the same time. And you're giving him all that space. He knows how to find his way and you're dropping half of that off his, half of his burden. Just by trusting, he'll find his way. He always has. Creating the situation again feels like it's real in a sense. It feels like we're doing this to him in a way. And I don't know if that's what's happening, but it feels almost like we're doing this for him and for me. You mean our work together? Yeah. Yeah. If it's for you, it works for him. Yeah. We're becoming better mothers, and that makes kinder, more understanding mother for our children. Yeah, there's so many parents in prison, you know. Yeah, child abuse. And there's so many children that are now adults in prison. And these traumas, you know, we're just getting a snapshot that is a big deal. It's a big deal. It's life-altering. But the ego will take the enlightenment. Shoo it up. and justify itself just like it's always done. That's why I suggest a full worksheet, you know, from number one to six. Yes. A situation with your son when he's got the math problem or the one in the car of the eight-year-old and then another one will come up and then that's another worksheet. And then your ego will tell you, oh, I've got this handle. Things are really working well now. And it's like, thank yourself for sharing. And you lose your patience again. Then it's another worksheet. Or you feel like you're almost ready to leave him to his homework. You go do your homework, your internal homework. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. eye. I mean, almost every thought needs work, needs some work on it. Well, it's like riding a bicycle. You know, it's clumsy at first, and then we find we're just riding it consciously in real time, even without the questions, because you've got enough worksheets under your belt that life begins to make sense. Boy, oh boy. Oh my goodness. My daughter, when the work found me, she was in her teens, and she just got her driver's license. And I was always so guilty. Of course, I had to buy her a brand new red Camaro that was really hot in those days. And there she was, alcoholic. drug addicted, as it turned out. And I'm so full of guilt that, and the work found me. And she would say, she wouldn't even say goodbye. She'd just give me the look at night, and she was into drugs and alcohol and just take off in that car. I really understood the worst thing I could do is try to stop her. Because she'd win, and she'd win in the end. How would she win? I don't understand. She'd take the keys or call a friend, and they would go in their car. I can't stop someone that you can't stop. You know, what am I going to do? Lock her in a room? I mean, that lock doesn't last long. It just doesn't work. So one day she just called me and said, Mom, I can't do this anymore. Whatever you're doing with those people, please do it with me. But I let her go to the death countless times, and I had the work. I had to work, and I would just sit there with pencil and paper, and I would see her just dead in the dark with no one. She's screaming for me, and there's no one that can hear her, and she's in agony, and I'd do a worksheet on that as though it were happening, and it was certainly happening in my head. I was being traumatized by the ego. And then I would just, it takes a lot of courage to do this work, but it's We become more responsible as parents, not less. It sure seems risky, you know, let our children go. Well, nothing we have to do, but they go whether we let them go or not. Just like your son, he, you know, in the car, not easy to stop. And then there's resentment and with the math problem. And your fear, it sets them back. Yes. It's got a good mind. And through you, he's allowed to use it. And he begins to see that you trust him to find his way. And that gives him all the security. That just, it's such a shift. It is a turnaround. Yeah, I'm letting him go. It's as hard of a thing I've ever done. But he's got to find his way. I can't do that for him. Well, you've given it your best shot. So when you say that, you're really an expert. You know, you can't stop him. You can't stop him. Well, you're into some really good stuff. I'm so glad. we have this time together. Yes. And I asked a couple of the men in prison if they had anything they wanted to ask. So I have one which I think it's, well, I'll just read it and we'll see. He said, my nephew was murdered on April 5th, 2023. Since then, I've had numerous conversations with my sister. During those conversations, I could tell that she was blaming herself for his murder. She would also say that she had to stay strong for her three children who lost their older brother. I asked her to clarify what she meant by she has to stay strong. She said she can't give up as if that were a present thought. She's also angry with the man who murdered her son. I do a worksheet. What I recommend to anyone is what I would recommend to myself always. but I'd do a worksheet on the man who murdered my sister. It was his sister's. His nephew, yeah. Yeah, his sister's son. I'd do a worksheet on that murderer, whether I'd ever seen him or met him before in my life, I'd do a worksheet on that man who murdered the son. And because the ego, it can... easily do it from one to six on that worksheet on what we're thinking and believing about anyone that would murder a child or anyone for that matter that affects our life. And then a worksheet on a sister. Yes. Like she'll never get over this. You know, is it true? That's so powerful. And then notice how you react. How do you talk to your sister when you hang up the phone? How do you treat yourself? Notice the images of past and future in your head when you think the thought, my sister will never get over this. Yeah, the images of past. Turn it around. You know, my sister will get over this. And if this man really sits in it on that turnaround he'll find She will get over it. And people talk about they don't get over it. They hang on to it all their lives. There are those moments. She'll never get over it. She will get over this. And when she's focused on one of the other children or when she's flushing the toilet or that moment when she goes to sleep, she's over it. I mean, we can just find example after example. She'll never get over it. She will get over this. Well, how could that be possible, the ego says. That's my child. That's my nephew. It's just, yeah, we get over it. The ego pulls it up. That's how the ego... Ego is a state of mind. It's not a state of body. It's identification, and it's just... You know, images of past and future running in our head that aren't even real. It's not the real past, it's imagination. It's not a real future in our head in the moment. It's an ego play. It's an illusion. And when we see those images in our head, that's the cause of why we kill. It's the cause of all suffering. Can you expand on that? That seems very important. Yes. It's like if I say the word banana, you just saw banana in your mind's eye. Well, if I am thinking my sister will never get over her son's, my nephew's death, I can see an image of my sister. I can see an image of... my nephew, maybe at the funeral, or maybe alive and happy and then dead. And then all those images, they're horrific. Okay, so we have the word, like banana, and then you have the image. So the name, the word, the name, and then the image that matches the name. That's life. That's the ego's life. So that is the cause of all sadness, all fear, all anger, all of it. It's a trance. Just the way you were able to be with your eight-year-old in the car, you know, and you were awake to that trance. You're aware. You're imagining it, but there it is. So when you're talking to, anyway, that's a worksheet on my sister. And I would say, you know, I'm just, I'm traumatized at my sister over my nephew's death. She'll never get over it. And then Go to number two, what do you want in that situation? I want my sister to be free of pain and trauma. And then number three on that judge your neighbor worksheet. That's number three is all about the advice for my sister. You know, my sister should in that situation where she's just dying of sadness. My sister should. And then just meditating, what advice? She should, she shouldn't. And then you're going into your own wisdom when you fill in these worksheets. And then later, we're going to question everything, every concept there anchored in the situation. You know, Fritzie, I have a thing I call 1-2-3. And it's, have you seen it? Yes. They list complaints. Yes, that's what I was doing this morning, yeah. They just fill in complaints. So then they learn the ego will just offer up this complaint and that complaint and to become aware of not just I complained about my son because. um i traumatized him and you're in the car you see it when you're filling it in i complained about my mother because um she never really cared about me and you're seeing a time and place yes you could have had the thought a thousand times you're seeing a time and place and so you anchor in one so as as you direct as as you fill in that i complain Become aware of the time and place, the situation. So then when you're doing the work, when you're questioning what you've written, one complaint at a time, then you anchor in that time and place. And there are your answers. You experienced it. We experienced that together. I watched you in both situations with your son. And the answers are. there. They're not just something that we just answer out of the blue. We anchor in a time and place, and then it all starts to unravel. And so it's similar. We're bringing up the images the way we live in the past, but because we're anchoring it, we're getting more information. We're getting the wisdom out of... Well, we had the thought. And the image is that is the situation. And that's where the problem was. So it's just handy dandy would anchor there and enlighten ourselves to what we were unenlightened to in this situation that causes such havoc. Yes, which you say what you said earlier is what allows us to be violent, allows us to justify our behavior. towards others. So which is why I'm, I'm so fascinated by your work for the people in prison, because they're all working on why they did what they did to put them in prison. I mean, except for the people that are innocent, but they're even working on that. I don't know why they're in prison. They were believing their thoughts. If I believed what they believed, I would be in prison too. But prison doesn't support them to see the cause of their suffering. They can experience remorse and repent and all of that, but it's a big help, and maybe they'll make it. But if we don't know the cause of our suffering, the ego is going to justify anything, and it would go to prison to save another human being or someone they love, like the sister. You know, it's like in a heated moment, yeah, you know, I die before I let so-and-so get away with that. Well, we can't. We can die in prison. Well, or, you know, if someone hurt my son, right? Who? Where? Great example. Yeah, it's like, I'm, you know, I'm going to take care of this. I don't care what happens. That's my kid. Yes. There's got to be another way, because in that your child could lose their parent. It just doesn't make sense. Yes. But so, like, how do we stop the baby from falling into the water? That's... Look to myself. What am I thinking and believing in that situation when I said that, when I did that, when I was 13, yesterday, day before yesterday, anything that comes up that I experienced guilt, that's a worksheet. Yeah. Yeah. So everything, the fear of the future and the regrets of the past are the images that come up in our brains. which allow us to do things that we regret later. And, you know, the ego's busy justifying it before they act. Or being a victim. Look what they did to me. Exactly. That's really good. Yeah, so it's this is allowed, this is okay. Or look what they did to me. And this is worth it. This is worth it. Well, no, it's not. Yeah. If I get away with it, it is. If I get caught, not so much. Yes. Well, you know, a lot of people have said, I didn't really actually do the crime I'm being incarcerated for, but I have done 12 other things that I should be incarcerated for. But an interesting, another justification, right? Well, still, there's some truth in it for some of them saying that. You know, it's, yeah, I'm guilty. I know why I'm here. And I've done more. And something had to stop me, which is gratitude, right? Gratitude for... stopping this? You know, I would, when I, for example, I was in a men's prison and I would go maybe once a month, sometimes twice, into maximum security. And they're tough. And some of them are such... good dudes, you know, that are so smart and, oh. Just to die for a door. Yes. But, you know, they did the crime. Yes. And some of them have done a lot of crimes. And the crimes they do out there, they do inside as well. And they're, they do, you know, they don't. get caught always like they do out in the world. You know, we all get away with so much. But when one of those guys fall, like I'll work with someone that's vulnerable on the microphone in front of the entire population that they allow in. And I'll work with one vulnerable dude. Then those really smart guys, you know, the ones that are really admired and running the place. This one guy I'm working with, his mind is so open, and one of those other guys get it because they're in the audience, and they're not being challenged personally. Right. Yeah. Right. Of that one, two, three. So we're all doing worksheets. And they're so smart. And they get it. The whole population starts shifting. It becomes not a sissy thing to do or, oh, you know, should I go to group today or anything like that? They're just, they're in. And it's fascinating. The mind is fascinating. The ego is fascinating. And to understand it. It's what we're all looking for. It doesn't matter what walk of life. We're all looking for a way out of the prison of the mind. Exactly. And I believe the people in prison actually have more motivation to get this. Yeah, yeah. And when they get it, it gets to their families and gets to their communities. Yeah, yeah. They're like people on the outside that just... They just have nothing left to lose. They're just so depressed and feeling so hopeless. Yeah, and what a gift for them to realize their true nature. And our true nature is pure goodness without opposite. Yeah. Pure, pure, just pure God consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And thank you for reflecting that. Yeah, I just can't help it. Some things are just true. And that's the thing that's true. That's why it's so painful when we think against it, and then we act on it, and then that keeps it going. It's like identity is just like cementing itself in our head, like where we started with, I'm, there's something wrong with me. I'm a bad person and there's something right with me. I'm a good person. And to give them one of those one belief at a time worksheets and take them through I'm a bad person. Boy, boy, oh boy, oh boy, that would be, yeah, I can see a lot of value there. And to anchor in a time and place the way you did in the car and with your son's homework. Yeah. Yeah. And your prison video is in our curriculum now. So they'll also get. Well, I hope it's a good one. I think it is. I'll make sure. I'll run it back by you. Yeah. If it's not, then. I don't know if I'd have another. It's been, that one's so old. I would, well, they have you, so that'll be my consolation. Well, sometimes, but yeah. Well, there's other. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it, see what the best is. And there's nothing we can't do when we question our thoughts. No. You question yours, and out of that experience, if they stumble, you'll have already been there. Yes. One of the things I say to them is, why are you in prison? And, you know, they say because I murdered someone or armed robbery or whatever they say. And I just say, no, you're in prison because you're here. That's it. There is no other. There is nothing else to talk about. This is in the present moment while you're here. Unless you're reliving that story that I murdered somebody. But I learned that from you. Yeah, and I would take them and do, just before you murdered that human being, or did what you did for those that did not murder, what were you thinking and believing? And then that would be number one on the worksheet. Yes, and... And then they'd go to the want. We're going to be videotaping this. putting this into prison so would it be okay if i put the worksheet up on the absolutely video all three of them okay the um i complain about and um and the um one belief at a time and the judge your neighbor worksheet yes that way we just cut to the chase yeah it's to the chase like like like we were able to go back to that beautiful mother. It's like the best of mothers, and there we are, just in a kind of trance, not knowing what to do and doing our best. Yes, in a trance, and there's more children that need her. If we're talking about the one whose son was murdered, or if we're talking about me. Yeah. My son needs me. If I'm in a trance, what good am I doing? Yeah. Or if we have our son in a trance, meaning I see the son of the past, the son of the future, am I with my son at all? Oh, God. Oh, God. The son of the future, you know. What if you don't pass? What if you don't succeed in school? Yeah, and when you look at what's going on in your head, I mean, you just went off on a train that shows you that's going on in your head how you treat your son. And that's what allows one to think it's for their own good. I'm trying to spare them all of that stuff in my head. But it's a journey to get to all those places we want for our children. And we start where we are with that one math problem, let him figure it out. And just say, you need help? Here I am. I'm available. I love you. Done. Done. Yes. Yeah. Oh, God. It's grace is what this is. Yes, it is. And... With itself. I'm sorry, what did you just say? A mind at home in itself, with itself, present. Yeah. Yeah, you said in another interview, you said, there's no downside to being here now. Anything we need to accomplish or do or serve is right now. Gosh, it's a full, everything we need is here. You know, I have a cup to wash and a pencil I'd like just to, it's like this, I just want it like that. I don't have to do it, but. It's nice. It's my world. It was okay the other way, too. This is nice. Yeah. In one of your books, you were talking about someone not picking up the trash. And so you just did it. Instead of going into a whole story, you just house-kept for the world, for the planet. Yeah. And it's ongoing. That way, we're never bored. Okay, precious heart. Okay. Okay. So anytime you need me, just let Keith know, and here I am. Thank you, Katie. And, yes, and maybe we can figure a way to get a couple of the questions live with the guys and the women. Oh, yeah. That would be great. Okay. I will work on that next. I'm in. Thank you. Bye-bye. You continue to blow me away. I love you. Love you. Bye-bye. I love you, son. Yes, I will. I will. Thank you, Byron Katie, for your wisdom and for your practical tools of the work and helping me through working through another piece of my past that I now feel better about. It's amazing for me what can happen. When I look at the thoughts I have and realize they're all images from the past that don't exist anymore. And the pain that I'm calling up again and again and again to live in a place that doesn't exist. This conversation is a punctuation mark on the past couple of days that I've been doing this work. I will continue to look at my thoughts and the pain that I'm causing myself. So if you are not in prison, please be sure to visit Byron Katie's website, thework.com, and read all of her books and listen to her work. She sometimes has online sessions where she does the work with people, and I highly recommend visiting that. And if you're in prison, we will be putting the worksheets up at the end so that you can access these questions. And I highly recommend doing these worksheets. Even just the I complain about worksheet is so powerful when you look at what you complain about and then turn it around like I did. He is always wasting his life. Well, who am I? When I turn that around, I'm always wasting my life thinking about this person who's always wasting his life. So very powerful ways to really question what's going on up here. So thank you so much for watching and listening to this podcast. Please go to our website, CompassionPrisonProject.org and like, subscribe to this podcast. undo the work. What else can I say? I've been doing the work for 20 years, and I'm sure there's about 20 more years of work left for me, and I look forward to digging in again. Thanks so much for listening and watching. Shift happens, and I'll see you next time.

Her simple yet powerful process of self-inquiry, which she calls the work, consists of four questions and the turnaround, which is a way of experiencing the opposite of what you believe. Byron Katie has been bringing the work to millions of people for more than 30 years. Her books include the best-selling Loving What Is, now in a revised edition, I Need Your Love, Is That True? , A Thousand Names for Joy, and a mind at home with itself. For more information, visit thework.com.

I'd also like to read Byron Katie's invitation. She writes, an invitation to inquiry. Welcome to the work.

I discovered that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered. But when I didn't believe them, I didn't suffer. And that this is true for every human being.

Freedom is as simple as that. I found that suffering is optional. I found joy within me that has never disappeared, not for a single moment.

That joy is in everyone, always. And I invite you not to believe me. I invite you to test it for yourself.

Byron Katie. Byron Katie, welcome to Compassion in Action. Hi, Fritzie. Hi, Katie, how are you? Hi, oh, just so grateful for your good work in this world with those prisons.

Oh, what a privilege, huh? Right? Oh. Yes, and what a privilege to be here with you. Thank you.

I've been doing the work for the past couple of days. to get ready with you and i got to see my greatest hits of my of my painful thoughts and and what a gift you know they're just i just know anything like a self-inquiry it's a self-inquiry oh my goodness yeah and the wisdom is right there right there and i i'm gonna just give you a couple of the thoughts I came up with. And then my turnarounds just to launch the conversation, because I really want the men and women in prison to get a handle on how every thought that comes through, if it's painful, is not the truth. Yeah.

If it's painful, yeah, we can just together make this just as clear as possible. possible for them to understand how yes who understands something that we can both speak to so it's so simple but it's it doesn't seem possible and yet yes it is yeah uh i've done your work i i met you and worked with you 20 years ago right when i was pregnant and These past three days, I really just got it. I just, just got it.

And wow, and wow. So here's a couple of the complaints. The complaints, I wrote down the complaints. One of the complaints was, this person annoys me because he complains a lot.

Well, who's complaining? I'm complaining about this person complaining. So who's complaining a lot? Wow, just that, so simple.

And it wakes us up. not so easily understood. Like you have this, like the last couple of days, you just get it.

But boy, this, yeah. It's, it's, it's grace. Yes. And it, things are a little different now. Another of my greatest hits was with my ex-boyfriend, and he betrayed me, right?

He betrayed me. I keep running the script that he's betraying me. Who's betraying who? He's gone. He's in the past.

This is 40 years ago. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Yeah. So. powerful. Yeah.

And it changes everything. And, and, and, you know, one more, um, she's violent. Now my thoughts about her are violent, right? So who's being violent? Who's being violent here?

But so it's basically everything that goes through the transom. needs to be looked at if it's painful. I mean, I think all of them, but the big ones are, look what he did to me, look what she did to me. Yeah, and how do we react when we believe the thought? We end up in prison and we can justify it and wonder how did we get here?

Yeah. Yes, and so with prison, some of the most painful thoughts, I think, for what I've been... What I've been witnessing is I'm no good.

I'm a bad person. So, and I've had those thoughts too, right? So.

Yeah, they're universal. Yeah, yeah. And no new stressful thoughts are universal. And then the ego, you know, it. attaches to whatever will give it the identity that is going to lock it in.

Yes. And who would I be without that thought? I'm a bad person.

And then that turnaround, so powerful. I'm a good person. And the ego would just repel from that.

No, I'm in prison. bad person and ah but no i'm a good person just hang in just ponder that you know just find one one good thing about you one thing you did today right down to you know for me it's i brushed my teeth i'm a good person now we can start with the with with the personal when we're just so locked into I'm a bad person. And I spent so many years working in prisons with those guys and occasionally women's prisons and teenage lockups.

And what a privilege. Yes, yes. I truly believe they are the critical agents of change in the world.

Because when they get it... We can look at the people, yes, and we can look at... There are people not in prison that are living in the prisons of the mind.

And prison is prison and no way out. that they can find and we get desperate and then we we end up and you know behind with real bars and or or just suffer the prison of the mind but we can be in prison and free ourself from prison and i've seen it happen over and over and over and some some of the people i've worked with in prisons Most of my time is spent in men's prisons, but I've seen them get free and then become teachers of the work and lead circles. of self-inquiry.

And the more that person leads that group, the more deeply their mind runs and the freer they get. And then that becomes contagious and contagious. And yeah. Yeah. And they get to see when other people are not free and then helping them find their freedom.

Yeah. it gives them a whole new life, a whole new life. I've seen people wanting to go back to prison for their fellows, you know, their friends, because they're free in or out of prison.

So they can go in and help and support those that they become so close to. Grateful for. Yeah, so I have a thought that I think we need to address here, which is they killed my son.

Okay, so is this yours or just simple? No, it's not. But I have a painful thought about my son.

It's that I've hurt my son. Okay. So, when you are considering, I kill my son, what you mean is, I really hurt my son, like something like he's scarred for life. Yes, I have traumatized my son.

That's the thought that is the most painful thought I have ever had in my life. Okay, so let's work through that. So, what is the situation? That comes to your mind when you think the thought you traumatized your son.

An anchor there in that situation, that time and place where you said what you said, you did what you did toward your son. What is the situation? There could be a thousand, but anchor in one that comes to mind. What comes to mind is we're sitting in the car and he's playing with the phone.

I'm working on navigating and I'm getting distracted and stressed out driving. So I pull over and I yell at him and I send so much anger and vitriol and disgust and hate to him. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So be there in that situation. Witness you, feel that, look at your son. Is he cowering?

Is he trying to apologize? Is he just quiet? Is he, just look at him, get really, really, really, really.

Does he attempt to defend and you interrupt him? Just get in touch with whatever was there, just anchor in that situation then. You traumatized your son.

Is it true? Look at him. Is he courageous?

Did he argue back? Did he just go silent? How old was he? He was eight.

Eight years old. He shut down. He shut down. Okay, shut down.

And does he look at you? No, he's trying to escape in the car. He's just trying to be as still as possible. Okay.

So he's trying to be as still as possible. You're both in the front seat. Yeah.

You've traumatized your son. Is it true? Now, this is interesting because we can't know another person's mind, but the ego is so sure.

I traumatized my son. So look at your son. Does he have a way of protecting himself?

Does he go into his own world? There are things we can't know, but look at him. Is he looking at you? Is he looking away?

Is he? I don't know that part. but I, and I don't know if I traumatized him. You're right.

I don't know that. I. I know I traumatized myself.

I do know that by doing that. I do know that. So rather than jumping ahead, notice how you react. Maybe you didn't have the thought, I traumatized my son, until years later. Now go to the place where it hit you, you traumatized your son.

Maybe you heard it in a lecture or... or read it in a book or watched a movie when you had the thought, I've traumatized my son. Maybe it was your son not wanting to go to a school function and you had the thought, I traumatized my son. So find that moment when it came to you later in his life, that situation where you really You really locked into, I traumatized my son. I don't remember the first time, but I know it kept coming up when he would get reactive and mirror some of the things I had done to him.

Okay. So he took on your behaviors as a way of communicating back to you and others in his life. So you traumatized your son. So anchor there where he's acting out in that situation.

Listen to him respectfully. Just listen to him. Look at him.

You traumatized your son. Notice how you react, what happens emotionally when you think the thought. I traumatize my son.

I feel shame. I feel low. I feel bad. I feel like I'm a bad mother and sad. Yeah, you can't be sad.

If you're not witnessing those images of the past in that situation where he's acting out. Yeah, I'm bringing all those images up right now. Do you see how the ego offers up proof? Takes the moment and then it shows the past, the past. past.

Even if it's not the past, those images of the apparent past, those images of the past are brought up in that situation where your son is acting out and you're believing the thought, I traumatized my son. So be there now witnessing that. Now notice the difference between your thoughts.

And your son. In other words, who would you be in that situation without the thought, I traumatized my son. Now, listen to him the way you could not do when he was that little, about eight-year-old in the car.

Listen to your older son in that situation without those images of past, future. Listen, get connected. He's hurting. I want to help him.

That's it. That's all I got. Yeah.

Well, just listen. Yeah. You've got that.

That's a lot. Now just listen. I don't hear that he's harming you physically.

I don't hear any of that. Just listen. give him in that situation, what you couldn't give him growing up, like that little eight-year-old? And what is he saying?

What do you hear him say? I can't figure it out. I don't know how to do it.

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm stressed out. That's who you are without it.

You're available. You're a mother. You're patient. You're listening. You're open.

I traumatized my son. You see an opposite. Try I traumatized myself.

I traumatized myself. Yeah, I've done that many times now. watching him grow up. And then you notice that little eight-year-old in the car, you were seeing these images of the future, of what he's going to do next, what he's going to say next.

He's going to continue to interrupt you and move your focus when you're trying so hard to get focused. Yeah. And he wasn't necessarily doing that. He was just in the moment, just...

saying what he's saying yeah just ego projects he's not gonna stop and it's remembering the past where he was just bothering you bothering you moving your focus yeah yeah well that wasn't him that was your ego flipping you out of past future watching that movie And your head, just like the adult, you know, this traumatized you. It's like, I traumatized my son, I traumatized myself. What are you noticing? What are you becoming aware of?

This image of him traumatizing him has been a movie in my life for 10 or 12 years now, about 11 years now. And it is on replay and replay every time I think about myself as a mother. And I mean... Yes, so let's break the trauma. I traumatized my son.

I traumatized myself. Now listen to your son in that situation where he doesn't know how to do it. He's telling you he doesn't know how to do it. He doesn't know.

Okay, so be there now. And who would you be without the thought, I traumatized my son? Now just listen to him. You don't have to change him. You don't have to fix him.

You don't have to show him the way. Nothing. Just don't traumatize your son. You know, I traumatized my son. I didn't traumatize my son.

Who would you be without those thoughts? Now just see what it looks like not to be traumatized. Fritzie, listen to him. Notice.

Other than what he's thinking and believing, he's okay, trying to find his way. He's telling you, I don't know how to do it. Yeah, and I'm just there for him.

I'm just there for him. Without the trauma. Yes, yes, and I have a year left with him. I can do this now. I can.

be with him for a full year without traumatizing him or myself. I can just be there with him. Now specifically, he's saying, as I recall, he's saying, I can't do this or I don't know how to do this. What was it he was saying? Yeah, he was doing a math problem and it was frustrating him and he was just really acting out or just...

demonstrating his frustration. Yeah. Saying he didn't know how to do it. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So just let him have that. He's got a problem. Now, just silently, as we're sitting here together now, just silently, when you feel like he's open to it, not before, but when you feel he's open to it.

Just say, I'd like to help you if you're open to it. Or you might say, How can I support you? I see how difficult this is for you.

Now notice he might shut you down. He might just expect it. Yeah. You're living a life with your son without the trauma.

Yeah, and I'm just showing up for him, and that's enough. That's all I can do. Gosh, they begin to trust us. And, you know, my children, they have no right to trust me.

Do. This is not new work for me. Yeah.

And they know math is my weakest. They trust if there's any way I can, or I can get them a tutor. Yeah, yeah.

That would be up to them. I could offer a tutor. Yeah, and he's brilliant. And when he quiets down, he figures it out. There it is.

When you quiet down, it's the oddest thing that happens. It's like you quiet down and he just runs out of steam and begins to notice that there's no trauma coming at him from you. Yeah, yeah. And it has been shifting, but this is... This is a really big piece that we're doing right now because...

Big deal. Yeah. I learned that my children can find their way without me, that love is the power.

And love for me is listening without interjecting or trying to save them. The ego really wants to do all that, though, doesn't it? Yeah, that I know mind.

I know I can fix him. Well, we've had years of trying that, so maybe he can fix himself and I can just be here to support it. Wow, that is generosity, isn't it? It is. It's true generosity.

It's compassion. It's generosity. It's listening.

It's love. It's connection. It's just all those good things.

It's mothering. It's connection. And connection, you say, is one of the keys here. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, just be there now. Look how connected. you are. He doesn't have to connect. Look how connected you are.

And you haven't said or done anything to fix him. You just listen and you might say something like, just know I'm here for you. That idea of fixing him, right?

That is such a painful idea. It is. And I transmitted that to him.

That's where the word trauma comes from. You know, we have traumatized them. We've traumatized ourself. And then they carry on the tradition.

And you can break that chain. I know, you know, I can do it, you can do it. Yeah, well, I feel much more empowered today to do it because I have a different awareness about it now. Now, what do you want in that situation where he has that math problem?

I'm assuming math, that math problem, and he just can't do it, he thinks, and he's in that agitated state. What do you want him to think, say, feel, or do? I want him to do whatever he wants to do.

I think that's it. I want him to figure it out if he wants to. Okay, now go back into who you were in that situation. Anchor there.

Notice how you reacted. What did you say? What did you do when he's having that math problem?

Oh, I wanted to control. I wanted to control everything and fix it and apply it and get under it. Okay.

Yeah, I wanted it. I wanted it. Well, I wanted it to stop. I wanted him to stop his.

Tantrum or whatever I... Okay. Now notice how you treat him when you think the thought, I want him to stop that tantruming and settle down and focus. Yeah. Notice how you react, what you say, what you do when he's in that state, in that situation.

Yeah, I think it reminds me of my family back when my mother was yelling at me. There she is, living through you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, trauma.

Yeah. Yeah. So you want him to stop his tantrum. So now just be still.

Give him no advice, nothing. I want him to just be there with him, listening, watching him act out, listening, just being there, not trying to change him, not trying to fix him. I want him to stop his tantrum. Turn around.

I want me to stop. My tantrum. Yeah. Trying to fix him, trying to force him to hear me, trying to have him.

Yeah, just so much pain and violence. You know, I don't even think of it that way. It's like it feels justified.

It feels superior. We think it's good mothering and being a responsible parent. And he's having no peace of that.

No. Get out of my life, Mom. Get out.

Yeah, he's got that eight-year-old in him. Eight-year-old all the way up to that, just like you do. So I want him to stop his tantrum, turn around. Now just be there with him. Anchor there.

See him in your mind's eye. And then take this leap. I don't want him to stop his tantrum. I don't want him to stop his tantrum. Let him be.

Just get connected. Look at your son. Notice his frustration, his heart, his...

Just notice. I want him to stop his tantrum. I want me to stop my tantrum.

Just let him be. And another turnaround, I don't want him to stop his tantrum. I don't want him to stop his tantrum.

No, he can do what he needs to do. That's how he finds his way. It's how he has had to find his way.

He's had to get maybe louder than you've been, more. protect his mind from listening to you and finding workable situations at the same time. And you're giving him all that space.

He knows how to find his way and you're dropping half of that off his, half of his burden. Just by trusting, he'll find his way. He always has.

Creating the situation again feels like it's real in a sense. It feels like we're doing this to him in a way. And I don't know if that's what's happening, but it feels almost like we're doing this for him and for me.

You mean our work together? Yeah. Yeah. If it's for you, it works for him.

Yeah. We're becoming better mothers, and that makes kinder, more understanding mother for our children. Yeah, there's so many parents in prison, you know. Yeah, child abuse. And there's so many children that are now adults in prison.

And these traumas, you know, we're just getting a snapshot that is a big deal. It's a big deal. It's life-altering.

But the ego will take the enlightenment. Shoo it up. and justify itself just like it's always done.

That's why I suggest a full worksheet, you know, from number one to six. Yes. A situation with your son when he's got the math problem or the one in the car of the eight-year-old and then another one will come up and then that's another worksheet.

And then your ego will tell you, oh, I've got this handle. Things are really working well now. And it's like, thank yourself for sharing.

And you lose your patience again. Then it's another worksheet. Or you feel like you're almost ready to leave him to his homework.

You go do your homework, your internal homework. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

eye. I mean, almost every thought needs work, needs some work on it. Well, it's like riding a bicycle. You know, it's clumsy at first, and then we find we're just riding it consciously in real time, even without the questions, because you've got enough worksheets under your belt that life begins to make sense. Boy, oh boy.

Oh my goodness. My daughter, when the work found me, she was in her teens, and she just got her driver's license. And I was always so guilty.

Of course, I had to buy her a brand new red Camaro that was really hot in those days. And there she was, alcoholic. drug addicted, as it turned out.

And I'm so full of guilt that, and the work found me. And she would say, she wouldn't even say goodbye. She'd just give me the look at night, and she was into drugs and alcohol and just take off in that car.

I really understood the worst thing I could do is try to stop her. Because she'd win, and she'd win in the end. How would she win? I don't understand. She'd take the keys or call a friend, and they would go in their car.

I can't stop someone that you can't stop. You know, what am I going to do? Lock her in a room?

I mean, that lock doesn't last long. It just doesn't work. So one day she just called me and said, Mom, I can't do this anymore. Whatever you're doing with those people, please do it with me.

But I let her go to the death countless times, and I had the work. I had to work, and I would just sit there with pencil and paper, and I would see her just dead in the dark with no one. She's screaming for me, and there's no one that can hear her, and she's in agony, and I'd do a worksheet on that as though it were happening, and it was certainly happening in my head. I was being traumatized by the ego.

And then I would just, it takes a lot of courage to do this work, but it's We become more responsible as parents, not less. It sure seems risky, you know, let our children go. Well, nothing we have to do, but they go whether we let them go or not. Just like your son, he, you know, in the car, not easy to stop.

And then there's resentment and with the math problem. And your fear, it sets them back. Yes. It's got a good mind. And through you, he's allowed to use it.

And he begins to see that you trust him to find his way. And that gives him all the security. That just, it's such a shift. It is a turnaround.

Yeah, I'm letting him go. It's as hard of a thing I've ever done. But he's got to find his way. I can't do that for him.

Well, you've given it your best shot. So when you say that, you're really an expert. You know, you can't stop him.

You can't stop him. Well, you're into some really good stuff. I'm so glad.

we have this time together. Yes. And I asked a couple of the men in prison if they had anything they wanted to ask. So I have one which I think it's, well, I'll just read it and we'll see. He said, my nephew was murdered on April 5th, 2023. Since then, I've had numerous conversations with my sister.

During those conversations, I could tell that she was blaming herself for his murder. She would also say that she had to stay strong for her three children who lost their older brother. I asked her to clarify what she meant by she has to stay strong.

She said she can't give up as if that were a present thought. She's also angry with the man who murdered her son. I do a worksheet.

What I recommend to anyone is what I would recommend to myself always. but I'd do a worksheet on the man who murdered my sister. It was his sister's. His nephew, yeah.

Yeah, his sister's son. I'd do a worksheet on that murderer, whether I'd ever seen him or met him before in my life, I'd do a worksheet on that man who murdered the son. And because the ego, it can...

easily do it from one to six on that worksheet on what we're thinking and believing about anyone that would murder a child or anyone for that matter that affects our life. And then a worksheet on a sister. Yes. Like she'll never get over this.

You know, is it true? That's so powerful. And then notice how you react. How do you talk to your sister when you hang up the phone?

How do you treat yourself? Notice the images of past and future in your head when you think the thought, my sister will never get over this. Yeah, the images of past.

Turn it around. You know, my sister will get over this. And if this man really sits in it on that turnaround he'll find She will get over it.

And people talk about they don't get over it. They hang on to it all their lives. There are those moments. She'll never get over it.

She will get over this. And when she's focused on one of the other children or when she's flushing the toilet or that moment when she goes to sleep, she's over it. I mean, we can just find example after example.

She'll never get over it. She will get over this. Well, how could that be possible, the ego says. That's my child.

That's my nephew. It's just, yeah, we get over it. The ego pulls it up. That's how the ego...

Ego is a state of mind. It's not a state of body. It's identification, and it's just...

You know, images of past and future running in our head that aren't even real. It's not the real past, it's imagination. It's not a real future in our head in the moment.

It's an ego play. It's an illusion. And when we see those images in our head, that's the cause of why we kill.

It's the cause of all suffering. Can you expand on that? That seems very important. Yes.

It's like if I say the word banana, you just saw banana in your mind's eye. Well, if I am thinking my sister will never get over her son's, my nephew's death, I can see an image of my sister. I can see an image of...

my nephew, maybe at the funeral, or maybe alive and happy and then dead. And then all those images, they're horrific. Okay, so we have the word, like banana, and then you have the image. So the name, the word, the name, and then the image that matches the name.

That's life. That's the ego's life. So that is the cause of all sadness, all fear, all anger, all of it. It's a trance. Just the way you were able to be with your eight-year-old in the car, you know, and you were awake to that trance.

You're aware. You're imagining it, but there it is. So when you're talking to, anyway, that's a worksheet on my sister. And I would say, you know, I'm just, I'm traumatized at my sister over my nephew's death.

She'll never get over it. And then Go to number two, what do you want in that situation? I want my sister to be free of pain and trauma. And then number three on that judge your neighbor worksheet. That's number three is all about the advice for my sister.

You know, my sister should in that situation where she's just dying of sadness. My sister should. And then just meditating, what advice? She should, she shouldn't.

And then you're going into your own wisdom when you fill in these worksheets. And then later, we're going to question everything, every concept there anchored in the situation. You know, Fritzie, I have a thing I call 1-2-3.

And it's, have you seen it? Yes. They list complaints.

Yes, that's what I was doing this morning, yeah. They just fill in complaints. So then they learn the ego will just offer up this complaint and that complaint and to become aware of not just I complained about my son because.

um i traumatized him and you're in the car you see it when you're filling it in i complained about my mother because um she never really cared about me and you're seeing a time and place yes you could have had the thought a thousand times you're seeing a time and place and so you anchor in one so as as you direct as as you fill in that i complain Become aware of the time and place, the situation. So then when you're doing the work, when you're questioning what you've written, one complaint at a time, then you anchor in that time and place. And there are your answers.

You experienced it. We experienced that together. I watched you in both situations with your son.

And the answers are. there. They're not just something that we just answer out of the blue.

We anchor in a time and place, and then it all starts to unravel. And so it's similar. We're bringing up the images the way we live in the past, but because we're anchoring it, we're getting more information. We're getting the wisdom out of...

Well, we had the thought. And the image is that is the situation. And that's where the problem was. So it's just handy dandy would anchor there and enlighten ourselves to what we were unenlightened to in this situation that causes such havoc.

Yes, which you say what you said earlier is what allows us to be violent, allows us to justify our behavior. towards others. So which is why I'm, I'm so fascinated by your work for the people in prison, because they're all working on why they did what they did to put them in prison. I mean, except for the people that are innocent, but they're even working on that. I don't know why they're in prison.

They were believing their thoughts. If I believed what they believed, I would be in prison too. But prison doesn't support them to see the cause of their suffering.

They can experience remorse and repent and all of that, but it's a big help, and maybe they'll make it. But if we don't know the cause of our suffering, the ego is going to justify anything, and it would go to prison to save another human being or someone they love, like the sister. You know, it's like in a heated moment, yeah, you know, I die before I let so-and-so get away with that.

Well, we can't. We can die in prison. Well, or, you know, if someone hurt my son, right?

Who? Where? Great example. Yeah, it's like, I'm, you know, I'm going to take care of this.

I don't care what happens. That's my kid. Yes. There's got to be another way, because in that your child could lose their parent.

It just doesn't make sense. Yes. But so, like, how do we stop the baby from falling into the water? That's... Look to myself.

What am I thinking and believing in that situation when I said that, when I did that, when I was 13, yesterday, day before yesterday, anything that comes up that I experienced guilt, that's a worksheet. Yeah. Yeah. So everything, the fear of the future and the regrets of the past are the images that come up in our brains.

which allow us to do things that we regret later. And, you know, the ego's busy justifying it before they act. Or being a victim. Look what they did to me. Exactly.

That's really good. Yeah, so it's this is allowed, this is okay. Or look what they did to me. And this is worth it. This is worth it.

Well, no, it's not. Yeah. If I get away with it, it is. If I get caught, not so much.

Yes. Well, you know, a lot of people have said, I didn't really actually do the crime I'm being incarcerated for, but I have done 12 other things that I should be incarcerated for. But an interesting, another justification, right?

Well, still, there's some truth in it for some of them saying that. You know, it's, yeah, I'm guilty. I know why I'm here.

And I've done more. And something had to stop me, which is gratitude, right? Gratitude for... stopping this?

You know, I would, when I, for example, I was in a men's prison and I would go maybe once a month, sometimes twice, into maximum security. And they're tough. And some of them are such...

good dudes, you know, that are so smart and, oh. Just to die for a door. Yes. But, you know, they did the crime.

Yes. And some of them have done a lot of crimes. And the crimes they do out there, they do inside as well.

And they're, they do, you know, they don't. get caught always like they do out in the world. You know, we all get away with so much. But when one of those guys fall, like I'll work with someone that's vulnerable on the microphone in front of the entire population that they allow in. And I'll work with one vulnerable dude.

Then those really smart guys, you know, the ones that are really admired and running the place. This one guy I'm working with, his mind is so open, and one of those other guys get it because they're in the audience, and they're not being challenged personally. Right. Yeah. Right.

Of that one, two, three. So we're all doing worksheets. And they're so smart.

And they get it. The whole population starts shifting. It becomes not a sissy thing to do or, oh, you know, should I go to group today or anything like that? They're just, they're in.

And it's fascinating. The mind is fascinating. The ego is fascinating. And to understand it.

It's what we're all looking for. It doesn't matter what walk of life. We're all looking for a way out of the prison of the mind. Exactly. And I believe the people in prison actually have more motivation to get this.

Yeah, yeah. And when they get it, it gets to their families and gets to their communities. Yeah, yeah.

They're like people on the outside that just... They just have nothing left to lose. They're just so depressed and feeling so hopeless.

Yeah, and what a gift for them to realize their true nature. And our true nature is pure goodness without opposite. Yeah.

Pure, pure, just pure God consciousness. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

And thank you for reflecting that. Yeah, I just can't help it. Some things are just true. And that's the thing that's true.

That's why it's so painful when we think against it, and then we act on it, and then that keeps it going. It's like identity is just like cementing itself in our head, like where we started with, I'm, there's something wrong with me. I'm a bad person and there's something right with me.

I'm a good person. And to give them one of those one belief at a time worksheets and take them through I'm a bad person. Boy, boy, oh boy, oh boy, that would be, yeah, I can see a lot of value there.

And to anchor in a time and place the way you did in the car and with your son's homework. Yeah. Yeah.

And your prison video is in our curriculum now. So they'll also get. Well, I hope it's a good one.

I think it is. I'll make sure. I'll run it back by you. Yeah. If it's not, then.

I don't know if I'd have another. It's been, that one's so old. I would, well, they have you, so that'll be my consolation.

Well, sometimes, but yeah. Well, there's other. We'll talk about it.

We'll talk about it, see what the best is. And there's nothing we can't do when we question our thoughts. No.

You question yours, and out of that experience, if they stumble, you'll have already been there. Yes. One of the things I say to them is, why are you in prison?

And, you know, they say because I murdered someone or armed robbery or whatever they say. And I just say, no, you're in prison because you're here. That's it.

There is no other. There is nothing else to talk about. This is in the present moment while you're here.

Unless you're reliving that story that I murdered somebody. But I learned that from you. Yeah, and I would take them and do, just before you murdered that human being, or did what you did for those that did not murder, what were you thinking and believing? And then that would be number one on the worksheet. Yes, and...

And then they'd go to the want. We're going to be videotaping this. putting this into prison so would it be okay if i put the worksheet up on the absolutely video all three of them okay the um i complain about and um and the um one belief at a time and the judge your neighbor worksheet yes that way we just cut to the chase yeah it's to the chase like like like we were able to go back to that beautiful mother.

It's like the best of mothers, and there we are, just in a kind of trance, not knowing what to do and doing our best. Yes, in a trance, and there's more children that need her. If we're talking about the one whose son was murdered, or if we're talking about me. Yeah. My son needs me.

If I'm in a trance, what good am I doing? Yeah. Or if we have our son in a trance, meaning I see the son of the past, the son of the future, am I with my son at all? Oh, God. Oh, God.

The son of the future, you know. What if you don't pass? What if you don't succeed in school?

Yeah, and when you look at what's going on in your head, I mean, you just went off on a train that shows you that's going on in your head how you treat your son. And that's what allows one to think it's for their own good. I'm trying to spare them all of that stuff in my head.

But it's a journey to get to all those places we want for our children. And we start where we are with that one math problem, let him figure it out. And just say, you need help? Here I am. I'm available.

I love you. Done. Done.

Yes. Yeah. Oh, God.

It's grace is what this is. Yes, it is. And...

With itself. I'm sorry, what did you just say? A mind at home in itself, with itself, present.

Yeah. Yeah, you said in another interview, you said, there's no downside to being here now. Anything we need to accomplish or do or serve is right now.

Gosh, it's a full, everything we need is here. You know, I have a cup to wash and a pencil I'd like just to, it's like this, I just want it like that. I don't have to do it, but. It's nice.

It's my world. It was okay the other way, too. This is nice. Yeah.

In one of your books, you were talking about someone not picking up the trash. And so you just did it. Instead of going into a whole story, you just house-kept for the world, for the planet. Yeah. And it's ongoing.

That way, we're never bored. Okay, precious heart. Okay. Okay. So anytime you need me, just let Keith know, and here I am.

Thank you, Katie. And, yes, and maybe we can figure a way to get a couple of the questions live with the guys and the women. Oh, yeah. That would be great.

Okay. I will work on that next. I'm in.

Thank you. Bye-bye. You continue to blow me away.

I love you. Love you. Bye-bye.

I love you, son. Yes, I will. I will. Thank you, Byron Katie, for your wisdom and for your practical tools of the work and helping me through working through another piece of my past that I now feel better about. It's amazing for me what can happen.

When I look at the thoughts I have and realize they're all images from the past that don't exist anymore. And the pain that I'm calling up again and again and again to live in a place that doesn't exist. This conversation is a punctuation mark on the past couple of days that I've been doing this work.

I will continue to look at my thoughts and the pain that I'm causing myself. So if you are not in prison, please be sure to visit Byron Katie's website, thework.com, and read all of her books and listen to her work. She sometimes has online sessions where she does the work with people, and I highly recommend visiting that.

And if you're in prison, we will be putting the worksheets up at the end so that you can access these questions. And I highly recommend doing these worksheets. Even just the I complain about worksheet is so powerful when you look at what you complain about and then turn it around like I did.

He is always wasting his life. Well, who am I? When I turn that around, I'm always wasting my life thinking about this person who's always wasting his life.

So very powerful ways to really question what's going on up here. So thank you so much for watching and listening to this podcast. Please go to our website, CompassionPrisonProject.org and like, subscribe to this podcast. undo the work. What else can I say?

I've been doing the work for 20 years, and I'm sure there's about 20 more years of work left for me, and I look forward to digging in again. Thanks so much for listening and watching. Shift happens, and I'll see you next time.

Transcript for:Self-Inquiry and Inner Freedom

Transcript for:
Self-Inquiry and Inner Freedom