[Music] yeah [Music] hello viewers and welcome to the latest episode of the Huddle I'm with Melanie Ellis partner of Northridge law melie thanks for joining us um thanks for having me Tim yeah it's uh it's not a problem at all obviously you've featured in gambling inside the magazine before and uh today we're talking at the the Kindred sustainable gambling conference um maybe if I could ask you a quick couple of words on on what this kind of event means to um to you from maybe a lawyer's perspective but in general also just as a as a member of the industry sure um I mean just generally it's always really interesting to come to this sort of event and hear from sort of a range of speakers from different backgrounds I mean particularly we just had a um lived experience panel and I think that always just gives you a sort of a fresh perspective sometimes on the work that you're doing to understand you know where people are coming from who may be affected by gambling harm so I mean just just a sort of a catch up of other from the industry as well as as hearing from people with different perspectives yeah and in terms of your experience and your journey can can you walkr through the kind of the kind of work you've done and what's maybe LED you to where you are at the moment okay well I mean I've actually always um worked in the gambling industry as a lawyer from the very beginning um so starting from when the uh gambling act 2005 was first coming into force in 2007 so I guess AG me a bit but yes I've been working in the industry right through from sort of the the outset of online gambling um and taking that through the um changes in 2014 obviously with the uh point of consumption rules all the operators having to become licensed by the commission to sort of where we are today um with the white paper new reforms coming out MH obviously a lot of change in that time although as as many have pointed out there wasn't actually that much I guess a clear legal change since the 2005 hence we had the white paper well overdue um from your perspective U well there's there's a there's a lot to to discuss but um overall views of where we're at at the moment okay I mean so we in a bit of a difficult time at the moment really because I mean we've got a bit more certainty about the direction of change um now that we've had the white paper but it's a bit of a waiting game now isn't it as various consultations coming out of the white paper is still going through and that is taking some time as would be expected so you know I think to an extent you know operators my clients are trying to gear up to those changes but they're still not entirely certain the detail of them um so a slightly difficult time for the industry um but yeah and hopefully in the next year or so we'll start to get to a more certain point in terms of you know what the rules and regulations are yeah in terms of how the regulator they G commission is is managing the process um I spoke with Tom Banks earlier and uh I put to him very much he agreed that they're engaging a lot more now with the industry um and I think uh I use the phrase firm but fair with Andrew RH in particular who uh spoke at the betting game and Council AGM which was uh you know no one from the commission had done that previously how how would from your point of view um how would you sort of rate the you know the gam commissions managing the process but also that increased engagement with the industry yeah I certainly appreciate this increased engagement we really felt like we went for a period of a few years where the commission wasn't really listening to operators and what their concerns were so I think that yes now we're seeing more from Andrew rhods that's great and also I just really get the sense that the commission is listening um not necessarily um responding at this point to what concerns are that may be raised but they're certainly engaging with operators you know we saw them at ice for examp example going to some of the stands and actually meeting with sort of senior Managers from some of the operators to to to just understand you know what issues they're facing at the moment so they can take that away um so yeah certainly I think we're in a a much more positive place and you we've got the industry Forum that's just been set up um which again you just demonstrates I think the commission does want to hear from the industry now um so yeah hopefully continues MH in that way yeah in in terms of the specific areas I say there there's there's plenty obviously affordability checks are taking a lot a lot of colum inches a lot of headlines um I mean from your point of view um where where are we there and and potentially what what could be done better I'm almost I'm almost hesitant to ask because it's just such such a complicated topic yeah I think the issue at the moment is there is just still this real uncertainty about what operators are supposed to be doing now they're not even sure now are they supposed to be doing affordability checks or should they be doing Financial Risk checks and what levels should they be doing those checks because we've had guidance from the commission a few years ago that it should be based on average discretionary spend seems to have moved on from that but there's been no um sort of really clear guidance on what we should be doing at the moment so that in particular once the um the new thresholds and and methods for Financial Risk checks come into force that will be I I think good news for the industry um because they'll know what they need to be doing when MH um in terms of other things coming out of the white paper as well I think the um the new stake limit of online slots will be um a really big development I do have some concerns about that s of really stemming from those customers who may be looking to take higher amounts they the customers who probably more likely to be at risk are they going to take that business elsewhere to Offshore operators so um I think that's a big area of concern for me is it yeah yeah no that's always the kind of the the the fundamental um fundamental debate really how how responsible and how how well regulated you make a market without because it pushes if it pushes players too far um there's been a new survey recently from the gam commission as well um uh I understand you you have some you have some thoughts on it on uh on there's been a lot of discussion about about the use of data and and certainly with when it comes to the gambling commission for for years now um just in general even yeah I start from the fact that I think it's really important that the gambling commission and the government is able to um evaluate the impact of the changes coming out of the white paper and in fact there was a a blog post from the commission yesterday indicating that they do propose to to use data to to sort of you know come back and look at what the impact of the changes has been um but we have a a completely new survey methodology the gambling survey for Great Britain that is um going to become or has become official statistics now the the full data um set will start to be released from July with data for problem gambling it looks like we're going to have a very different um measure of problem gambling rates coming out of that survey than we've had from the previous um official statistics from the NHS Health survey and the commission's own telephone surveys which it did for a number of years so that puts us in a bit of a difficult position I think in terms of evaluating the impact of changes we'll have have this one baseline from the new survey in July which will be before things start coming into Force but this is from a a new survey method the pilot stages of it have again r quite different rates for problem gambling so how much confidence do we have that you know this this data now from July is going to be a a good Baseline and we're not just going to see fluctuations in that data from the survey methodology if we see them are they due to that are they due to um one of the changes from the white paper or all of them a combination is I think that's going to be a challenge um going forward which G given how important it is we make all these changes that we know have they been effective have they actually served to help people it's going to be difficult to do that so potentially to to put you on the spot and you may not have the the overriding answer for this but but how do you how do you reduce that uncertainty what what is something that the gambling commission or the The Wider industry or even the government could do to to help in this situation um I think if it was up to me I would want to continue um with probably the n survey data as the official statistics for now until the new survey method has been properly evaluated and tested there were a number of measures recommended by professor sturis in his review of the new survey method he recommended the commission go away and and do some further research to test the reliability of the data they're not going to do that before they get the data out in July so if it was up to me I would stick with what we've got we've got a sort of a long-standing history of results of of data about problem gambling and then we can use that much more effectively to track changes from the white paper yeah fair enough um if we're looking at next steps obviously it's it's not it's not necessarily in your hands or the operator's hands it's it's it's with The Regulators with with the government but um what are you um and and perhaps some of your clients uh looking for as the next steps uh as as obviously we have we have Myriad consultations we've had we've had some some you say the St limits have come in um but but there's plenty to come what what's next basically on the horizon well well I the next step for quite a lot of the main measures from the white paper is we're now waiting for responses to consultations and final proposals so this is the actual text of the lccp provisions that will come into Force this is a text of the new regulation so we can then actually look at that and begin to try and Implement that into operators policies and procedures MH and uh you so are you hopeful of perhaps let's say by the end of 2024 we'll be we'll have we'll have a bit more clarity that we that you kind of operators will be seeking yeah I hope so so you know when the white paper first came out the government said we're hoping most of these measures will be enforced by summer 2024 that doesn't look very likely now but you know perhaps we've slipped by around six months so yeah hopeful that over the next few months we'll start to see those actual draft regulations and and lccp Provisions sure well melie thanks very much for your time and uh best of luck a lot of change a busy time in the industry for sure you're welcome thank you you