[Music] so a lot of people are just kind of uh grinding away day and night Hess Pursuit for Perfection you know trying to get the perfect grades perfect job perfect partner I guess that sounds uh familiar for a lot of people but um what if I told you that this Relentless quest for Perfection is actually not just exhausting us but is also not making us perform any better so to discuss this and other things really pleased got the world leading expert on perfectionism Thomas curan welcome thank you very much that's a lovely introduction it's great to chat great now what is perfectionism okay so I guess the the starting point for understanding perfectionism is really to get into the weeds of it a little bit and understand where it begins and perfectionism begins of a place of lack of a place of deficit of a feeling that we are not quite enough not perfect enough and from that starting point Point what we're trying to do as perfectionistic people is conceal disguise hide to repair in some way what we know deep down to be an imperfect self so perfectionism is really about trying to overcome what we feel this deficit and lack through excessive standards through trying to project into the world a perfect image of ourselves we want other people to see perfect performances perfect appearances um because of that starting black so in the book which is by the way uh Fant fantastic book The Perfection trap you all have to read it um you split perfectionism into three it is the self-oriented perfectionism I the kind of thing you cause yourself it's how you impose your perfectionism other people and how in a way you make a lot of people miserable and then the type of perfectionism that the society is imposing through you now also through social media but if you start with kind of the self-oriented perfectionism what is that self-oriented perfectionism is a a burning need to be perfect and nothing but perfect H and and it comes with self-critical Tendencies when we haven't met those high and excessive standards so when we feel like we fell short uh we feel very self-critical we go in on ourselves how could you be so stupid what we you think in sort of internal dialogue are you are you born with it to a certain degree yes about 30 to 40% of self-oriented perfectionism is inherited um so if you have perfectionistic parents it's highly likely you'll probably carry some of those tendencies through uh yourself but that also leaves a lot for the environment to explain so it's a mixture of both and any geographical differences I for instance I just saw the that speed train in uh in Japan uh the last what is it uh 50 years the average delay has been less than one second whilst in the I'm not going to say what happens to trains in the UK but uh they are they're always on time um you know in Switzerland everybody's on time uh everything works uh you go to Spain everybody's 15 minutes late if if not more yeah is it is it tied to geographies of course look there will be definite cultural differences in perfectionism we don't NE we don't again is this is a great thing about perfection in some ways as an academic because the data is very limited so there's a lot of opportunity to explore these research questions what we do know from the data that we've cated is that if you look at self oriented perfectionism for instance that high self set need and desire to be perfect well that's really high in the US for example but not so high in European countries uh so the kind of very individualistic focus of the US economy you know the kind of American dream so to speak certainly is impacting on people's psychologies in terms of self-oriented but less so in other areas so we do see some differences that are linked to culture and there's a lot of grounds to suggest that this is a very culturally dependent trait and that's certainly the basis of my book actually is perfectionism is a cultural phenomenon um so we need more data but i' certainly say that there's strong links between culture and Perfection Thomas can a perfectionist be married to a non-perfectionist oh because you tried right yeah um well I would say it would be tricky not impossible but I I think uh there would be a lot of uh clashes a lot of um tensions perhaps but that's not to say it couldn't be worked through that's not to say that you know Love Is Love at the end of the day and uh but yeah I would say it would be a challenge for sure moving on to um the second strand of um of the perfectionist model the what you call the other oriented perfectionism so I you are perfect and you expect everybody else to be perfect yes so tell me about that um well the other oriented uh perfectionism is is really perfectionism turned outwards I suppose is what Frey would call projection right so you've got this idea of I'm pouring myself over hot calls to be perfect and I'm very self critical when I haven't met that high standard so it's only fair that everyone around me is going to have to carry those same expectations same pressures with them right like this is this is just uh a moral question in the mind of the other oriented perfectionist and uh which is fine and I'm sure we've all experienced of oriented perfectionist very high demands uh can't tolerate substandard performances and let people know when they haven't performed up to their standard um but it's not necessarily conducive to harmonious relationships to a lot relationship of oriented perfectionism and interpersonal conflict for example um in the workplace it can create tension uh in personal relationships it also can create dissatisfaction with expectations that we're placing on other people that are unrelenting um so yeah it's an interesting form of perfectionism probably the least well researched but certainly exists we've all experienced it I'm sure and can have some negative impacts when it comes to relationships well isn't this kind of the uh the uh description of the boss from hell yeah I would say so yeah there's there's a lot of high-profile people who I would say have had of oriented perfectionistic Tendencies uh Steve Jobs for instance a pioneering entrepreneur turned Apple's fortunes around clearly a hugely successful guy but also a perfectionistic person and testimony from ex colleagues have described him as having exceptionally high standards and not being able to tolerate when things haven't gone quite to plan and that of course has some good benefits but it also had some negative effects in the workplace around apple and I think that's important to bear in mind that you know of oriented perfectionism can can drive in an organization exceptionally high standards a culture of exceptionally high standards but it does so by fear by a sense that if we don't get it quite perfect or we make a mistake then it's going to come down on us like a ton of bricks and and so um I think yes overall it's probably something that to be avoided uh well I've seen some stats which says that um 70% of people who leave the jobs they do it because of the immediate boss yeah do you think there's a lot of this micromanagement involved here I think so I mean when people feel like they're under surveillance all the time when if they make a mistake there's going to be ramifications sometimes quite severe then then that that stops us from allowing ourselves to be wrong what does it what does it do to you what create it creates in us a sense that okay we've got to do everything at 100% you know we have to do everything perfectly essentially like every single job every single email every single project every single presentation has to be absolutely nailed to the satisfaction of our bosses and if we and if we slip up that's there's going to be problems and of course you know we are human beings we're imperfect we do make mistakes uh we fall short um and that's the whole you it's part parcel of a learning process you know nobody comes into a job bulletproof and I think if you create a culture where mistakes are punished and people feel very fearful of failing then you you create a lot of um reluctance uh to take risks to be creative to push the boundaries a little bit in terms of what's possible and all of that of course is not conducive to high performance uh or harmonious relationship so I have no not doesn't surprise me that 75% of people leave because of their I think is quite stifling and when we when we're in environments that allow us to flourish and take risks and take chances and fail we feel a lot happier a lot more engaged moving on to the the third uh part of the model hair the socially prescribed perfectionism what is that socially prescribed perfectionism is perfectionism that comes from the outside so yes perfectionistic people want to be perfect for their own end and yes sometimes they can project those expectations onto others but also there's a s in the perfectionist of people that other people have the same expectations that I have on myself for me so and where does that come from it can come from the immediate people around us or it can just come from the environment more generally it's just a a lens through which we view the world which tells us that everybody's watching they expect Flawless performances and if I don't meet up to those high and excessive expectations then they're they're waiting to pounce they're coming for me they're to criticize and so socially prescribed affection ism is perhaps the most extreme form of affection ISM in some ways it's certainly got the strongest correlation with serious mental health issues and I don't think there's any surprise there if we constantly feel like we're under surveillance with being watched then we're going to go through the world concealing hiding avoiding and feeling ex exceptionally self-conscious a lot of Shame a lot of embarrassment a lot of guilt when we have shown a in the Armory so socially prescribed perfectionism certainly is very uh live right now we what you talking you talk about a perfectionist epidemic exactly and this is the exact form of perfectionism that was cing rise really really sharply uh it's very widespread it's on an exponential curve which means it's rising very fast and will continue to rise even faster into the future if we don't do something about it seem to seem to have started around 2005 now what happened around that time I don't know that period was very we know we kind of know yeah there wasn't much going on 2005 67 was there um look you but then what happened clearly you know the uh there was big events around the mid 2000s we we all know what happened um and and there was a lot tell us what what happened well there was a lot of things going on of course the economy uh crashed uh we entered into a quite deep recession um so opportunities dwindled uh young people found it harder to to get into the workplace there was more competition from college places um so we we start to see an acceleration of societal pressure which makes life difficult uh the response to the uh crisis of course was lower interest rates money printing which pushed asset prices higher which means rents and property became more expensive so young people found it more difficult uh to to set up stability um you also had technology start to take off at this time too uh nio we had iPhone for instance released the uh sorry Apple released the iPhone in 2007 but don't you think that's the really main thing here yeah I think so but I think I think certainly look social there's no doubt about it that that that dat is significant in terms of social media platforms being transported into our lives 247 No Escape from Limitless images of perfect lives and Lifestyles that beamed at us almost 247 but what so that what what does social media do to us social media creates a scrambled reality a hyper reality so to speak where everybody is curating uh perfect lives and lives into which we feel like we have to conform we have to match right like that what we see around us is this kind of Limitless Aura of perfection and so we we not only feel we not only feel that that's desirable I that's how we should be living too should be living but also that it's eminently obtainable because everybody else seems to have this luxurious life and lifestyle attractive fit healthy productive and the rest of it and then if we don't match those excessive expectations those wared expectations that there must be something wrong with us that somehow we must be flaw deficient imperfect and of course that intensifies these perfectionistic Tendencies so look I have no doubt that social media is certainly a key piece to the rising socially prescribed perfectionism um but as I write in my book I think there are other broader macroeconomic factors which I think we also have to bear in mind when it comes to pressures on young people and those pressures being inter analyzed as excessive um and in order to survive in order to feel like they matter or of worth in that Society is important to be to be perfect and I think that's what we're seeing in the data well seems to be I mean there are there are numbers and research showing the relationship between how much time you spend on social media and your level of happiness and so you would have thought that there was an element of that in there sure sure yeah yeah there's a lot of there's a lot of research to show that social media can undermine happiness uh particularly overuse social media uh the more time you're on there the the uh less happy you are that's what the data seems to be suggesting um but I think we have to also be very careful to extrapolate from that that social media is universally bad like I think there are very enlivening parts of social media that we need to hold on to you know bringing bringing about Community uh sharing interests finding out news and bits of information that perhaps we wouldn't have had access to ordinarily but these are really important things um but there is certainly the comp comparative element of social media you know that very visual comparative element that I think is is is part of the problem I've seen um research lately which seem to indicate that well I mean the the results vary a bit but everywhere from 1 in three to one in five of young people have psychological problems how how is that linked to is that linked to perfectionism yeah I mean we have I have to be careful to extrapolate Too Much from the data of course all all all I've done is done a um a big why your very large um uh piece of cohort analysis which is showing that Perfections are rising over time and what I'm trying to do in the book is say that perhaps there's something underneath that Trend which tells us about these more observable outcomes that we're seeing in society I the links between perfectionism and depression anxiety heating disorders and all the rest of it are perhaps one of the reasons why we're seeing those things increase rise in Perfection is rising in lock with those things there's a circumstantial correlation and I've you know I've talked about why those things are linked but I think also we have to be very careful that there are lots of factors at play and I think perfectionism might be one of very many now perfectionists um rarely seek help or go to therapy why is that there's such an intent need to disguise hiding the the base motive for perfectionistic people is to avoid showing any in the Armory to avoid failure setback shortcomings and they will avoid them to such an intense degree that they are to sabotage the chances of success right the primary motive is not to be seen to slipper not to be seen to be vulnerable and so you know when you move through the world uh with that focus and and uh and that priority then of course when things go wrong when you hit setbacks which you will when we encounter grief heartbreak um things are outside of our control you know when a global pandemic comes along and makes things really tough the perfectionist tries to push through those things tries to put their uh foot harder on the accelerator to try to use their perfectionism to overcome what's happening to them well of course that's not a very good way to cope it certainly doesn't allow us to slow down it certainly doesn't allow us to seek help and those things we know are really important in order to recover from those stressful events so Perfection is a bit like anti- resilience in some ways you know it doesn't allow us to take setbacks and things that we can't control on the chin to you know absorb them to let them in to slow down when we need to it makes us push past these things at all costs and that cost can be quite significant when it comes to our mental health the slightly um counterintuitive thing here is that well you you say so in the book at least that perfectionists are actually not doing better at school and they are not doing better in the workplace so they're not more successful generally yeah how how come well there's a very interesting psychology of perfectionist and this is is something that we didn't expect to see when we did our studies and yet it came back time and time again and I've called it the perfectionistic Paradox because what happens with perfectionistic people is that whenever you tell them to do something for the first time they'll put everything in in of themselves into it so this is why you see hard work and um perseverance associated with perfectionism you know these people work harder they work more hours um in fact Perfection poly correlated things like work alcoholism for instance we know they do these things but the moment they encounter challenge is when you see something really interesting happen so perfectionistic people uh when you put them in the lab you give them something to do and then at the end you say okay you didn't quite achieve this success on this task right you failed basically but it doesn't matter have another go right you can redeem yourself and what happens is people who aren't very perfectionistic will not really change their effort on second occasion in fact they put a little bit more in perfe people do the opposite they just completely withdraw themselves because they felt so ashamed and embarrassed of showing that weakness of not meeting that Target that they will completely take themselves away so don't feel those feelings again it's really an an anxiety management technique taking ourselves away from the anxiety to not feel these things that's linked to avoidance but it's also linked to things like procrastination too that's why perfectionism is so strongly corated procrastination the avoidance of really difficult tasks uh to to manage the anxiety of thinking that we might not succeed this time that's not at all Rel conducive to Performance that's um uh that's not conducive to creativity it's not conducive to Innovation uh which are all you know things that companies and organizations really need today in a knowledge economy so yes I think one of the reasons why we don't see very strong links between perfectionism and performance is because perfectionist F focus is on avoiding failure rather than shooting for Success M what I think is really funny here is that we try or a lot of people try to be perfect but we just don't like Perfect People I we don't right we like people who got failures we we actually trust people more when they admit mistakes than if they don't and I just think that's really really odd well okay I I'll put that that question to you and in the you've obviously have an esteemed career have you worked in in organizations where that hasn't been the case that's to say that you felt under pressure to perform to a certain level and that mistakes have been punished and and has has has that created a lot of anxiety in you is it more is it easier for you to work in places where vulnerability is allowed where mistakes are allowed absolutely absolutely I have read uh places where it wasn't allowed and uh I was pretty miserable and and why but why was why were you miserable is it because you you didn't like that culture and you wanted to get out of it or was because of the of the fear that that those cultures instilled about making mistakes uh or or was it because it didn't create harmonious relationships with other I think I I think all the above micromanagement is doesn't sit well with me I mean uh if somebody tells me what to do I I would uh I very often uh would do the opposite it's uh it's probably also a dislike for authority I mean uh being in the Army didn't sit particularly well with me either no yeah so um now um moving into to this area this perfectionism in the organization um now what what does it do to a workplace well nich I think that's a question for you as much as it is for me because I'm an academic I mean I I I can tell you about cultures and organizations and certain practices that firms have employed that have been successful in addressing these issues but I don't know what it's like to work in these organizations on a day-to-day basis so that I maybe that's one for you like what do you think these kind of pressure students know I think it's um um I mean on the one hand you want to strive for for excellence and do really good work at the same time you want to you want to have give people the opportunity to make mistakes and you know provide that kind of psychological safety which is important for creativity and so on so it's a it's a it's a finally balanced thing but you know some some companies I think McKinzie has said that they hire insecure overachievers you know kind of perfectionists yeah I mean look there's no doubt that there is a um there is a certain degree of perfectionism that I can understand firms looking for it it wouldn't necessarily be the fear that's conducive to the performance but the anxiety that goes underneath some of effey Tendencies can push people really far like I speak from person experienc in this by the way like you know I consider myself to be a perfectionistic person all throughout my 20s um I push myself well beyond comfort in order to be where I am but it came at Great cost too and while that's something that perhaps might be great for the organization or the firm it is it is the short road to burner for a lot of the individual employees that carry those Tendencies into the workplace because it's not sustainable Nichol is is you know you can work evenings weekends you can put yourself to all sorts of Intolerable pressure under intolerable pressures and you can find at the end and at the end of all of that that whilst you may be ostensibly successful in your career that there is something that is taken from you in terms of your mental health in terms of your time with family friends and all the rest of it and so really I think for me it's about balance it's about understanding that yes there are elements of this mindset if you want to call it that that are conducive to high performance and can Elevate people but there are also elements that we need to be extremely cognizant to um sand down to manage to try to create environments that don't EMP emphasize or amplify those Tendencies and that's our challenge I think it's about trying to cultivate the Excellence that you talk about whil also making sure that it's sustainable and that people can come to a vitalized happy rejuvenated all of which we know are really important for the it's interesting we um I recently spoke with the CEO of Adidas and he talks about a burnout being a function of people not being themselves trying to pretend they're somebody else and uh I think that's probably related to that as well so it leads to a lot of um a lot of a lot of burnouts no I I try to um advocate for bringing Half Baked ideas which is is not easy to do if you're a perfectionist I guess no cuz the unknown right like there there's un there's too much uncertainty there yeah uh you don't know if it's going to work it's highly likely to fail that's going to be really tough for infection and we also try to call things a pilot if we think it may not succeed so for instance this podcast it was a pilot yeah we didn't know whether it was going to fly uh and to kind of take away the to diminish the embarrassment in case it was a total failure called it a we call it a pilot so that's a pretty good way of doing it I think I think that's great and also it it calibrates expectations from the very start yeah you know if you put too much pressure on something flying from the get-go there is so much that we can't control about these things too and I think it's really important to make sure that if we want something to be successful that we have realistic expectations of everybody on the team so but can you but can you think of a successful organization which hasn't been perfectionist I can't think like of a specific organization but I know that a lot of organizations right now are wrestling with how to create um cultures that are different to how they've been structured in the past as a kind of rank and yang performance-based um outcomes and all the rest of it I I know Google experimented with a very radical idea of to to pay people to fail to give people money for Taking Chances and failing I mean that's very radical but what that instilled is is is a Readiness for people to take chances and most of them aren't going to come off but if one does then that Innovation you know could be the next could be the next multi-billion dollar technological tool it could be right um atam bank is experiment of a 4-day weekend in sort 4day work week in the UK again they're trying to figure out can we get more from less that's to say that you know yes it sounds radical to take a day away from employees but on those four days are they more focused are they coming to work rejuvenated are they coming to work with uh more productivity essentially and seeing that in a lot of the experience in the four- day week that it seems to be working like that's to say you can get more for less and again that's one environment that I think says to people that we we we value your work but we also value free time so what's The Sweet Spot there what should we Target because getting something 100% right is very very expensive right and it takes the last 10% takes a lot of time a lot of money uh uh and it's and it's and it's tough so should we target like 90% good 85% good 80% good what what do you target I is really difficult to put a number on it because what is 80% good like what is 90% good I I think the best way to think about it is this look when you do any project at work yeah uh there's going to be hundreds of ways that are good enough that's to say hundreds of ways you can produce that project that report that is good enough as to say that that hits the targets um that provides the client with what they needed and give some value back to the organization hundreds of ways that are good enough but there is no perfect way because perfect is is an impossible outcome you can be iterating you can be changing you can be editing to the midnight right and and all the world probably compromising the quality because you you're starting to meddle with with the things that we're find right so it's really really important to bear in mind I think in an organization that just letting things go when it's of a of a level that fulfills what's expected the criteria of what's needed and the expectation of both the firm or the client that's that's the good enough moment to go out and then move on to the next thing and then move on to the next thing you know it's so so important to just have in your your mind uh an ability to let things out into the world because that's that's the thing that stops perfectionistic people uh succeeding it's it's an inability to just let it go they diver they procrastinate they're over they're over schedule and of course this has massive knock on implications for the organization in the can I ask you a question you were going to ask me a question here about CEOs and I'm really interested in that because I I was like oh if you asked me that question I would't be able to answer it but do you do you think in in your world that in order to be a CEO like to get to the very very top of what is a very elite profession that you have to have a little bit perfectionism because I don't sense in yourself that you have strong perfectionistic Tendencies and yet here you are so I'm wondering your take on this do you think do you think it's necessary or do you think it's something you could do to that well you probably know that I'm not a perfectionist because you may have even read my desertation which I wrote at the your department at the LSC um you know what I think it kind of helps not to be perfectionist to be a CEO because um in my mind a CEO is about setting the direction deciding which mountains to climb and rally the troops M and I think the the way to rally the troops is through motivation is not about you know micromanagement I think it's really counterproductive and um I also think and this was something that Sam ultman um said in the podcast we did with him if you should not be too prescriptive in what you want to what you want people to achieve you know you you don't want to have two specific targets you want to tell them uh the task and then see what they come up with and that's the amazing thing and I see it with with uh our own organization that sometimes you give people uh iest question or ask and they come up with something which is amazing and Beyond what you would ever expect was possible and so if you are too specific too micromanaging you you would just destroy all that you destroy people's creativity you destroy the the ownership of their work um and you take away the pleasure and and you know fun part of work that's interesting that's really interesting yeah and it's it's so important for someone like yourself to say that cuz because I think right now we have have a lay perception that you know you've got to push yourself to the MTH degree um and that you have to be relentlessly working in order to succeed and actually what I hear you saying is that sometimes it isn't just about that almost unrelenting Pursuit obviously you need the hard work of course you do but also there's other aspects of getting to the top that all outside of that you see in a way I think it's probably uh I think it's counterproductive in another way as well I think it's about in my mind managing uh an organization is about seeing the people yeah and it's about not seeing just the results of what they're doing but it's trying to see the person what makes the people tick Thrive when are they in the flow and try to make sure that they are in that situation as often as possible now if you just focus on the results and you know wanting perfect results you will just not have time and not have the ability to work with work with them as people yeah I think that's very very important I think is more important than ever before I I I'm just this is music to my ears because it's really nice to hear somebody like yourself Talking these terms because I think this is a a bit of a paradigm shift that needs to occur um that actually you can get you know the FOC the focus really is is is is on people right like you know um if you focus too much on productivity and and uh you know profit margins and all the rest of it then I think you can easily forget that there are people underneath those those margins that that are doing incredible work to make sure that the company grows year on year on year you got to look after them you know you got to make sure they're in a safe comfortable environment where they can feel free to express themselves their ideas take risk and the rest of it and you know I think there's a counterculture occurring but it's it's slow to take take off and that's really nice to hear someone like yourself um really speaking in glowing terms for those kinds of are areas of um productivity if you want well-being um as opposed to just the bottom line is there a link between extremely hard work and perfectionism do you have people who work extremely hard who are not perfectionist uh yeah they they do work extremely hard but again it goes back to this Paradox right they work extremely hard in certain circumstan but do you also have do you also know people who work extremely hard who are not particularly perfectionistic of course people who are conscientious people who are diligent people who are meticulous you know uh work exceptionally hard is it worked is it linked to grit in any way grit is um an interesting uh I I like what Angela Duckworth has done with this um uh with this aspect of character you know purpose and perseverance it's it's a very um I think it's been extremely helpful for a lot of people clearly she's a bestselling auor people seem to resonate with this this topic and and can see that being gritty resilient being able to um push past adversity all these things are really positive um for performance but I would say also Nikolai everything in moderation right there are times when sometimes it's not smart to persevere you know if a project is going down a dead end it's really important you actually know know when to quit know when to stop and move on to something else as well so it's like anything perfectionism is is kind of achievement striving taken to an extreme right and and I I think it's the challenge of people and organizations to find as you mentioned that sweet spot where is The Sweet Spot the moderation will we're capturing that hard work and that perseverance but we're also making sure that we're working smart too uh and that we're we're identifying what's working and we're focusing and we're making sure that we can identify issues challenges setbacks mistakes and we can put them right you know and that that's the challenge everything in moderation so Thomas let's move on now to what to do about it so let's now assume that I'm a perfectionist how should I cope with it well well there are many different ways you can think about it from a personal perspective but also from an organizational perspective let's talk about it from a personal first the the key thing is to to know that things aren't as bad as what you think they are in your mind when when we when we talk about the reluctance to let it go perfectionists find it difficult to let things go they find it difficult to push ourselves into challenging situations this is also one The Reason by the way Prof struggle to succeed in their careers because if they put themselves into a situation where they might be judged like presentations or for job promotions they kind of recoil from that because they don't that fear is so paralyzing so it's so so important to know that the consequences of what you you're so in fear of like the con that that that imperfect person that you're living in fear of you're trying not to make sure that doesn't get shattered you know it's really it's it's really not as bad as you think when you put yourself out there when you let things go when you do a bad presentation right you're going to get get feedback and maybe it's not going to be very good but actually let yourself go through those experiences be courageous in some ways to push yourself out there and do things a little bit out of your comfort zone because you'll find that actually it's okay like well you say that but how did you cope with that I mean you you're a perfectionist I mean do you manage to get through these kind of things easily no I don't and and and I still struggle but the the key point to this is that you got to do it anyway putting a book out into the world for instance it's the hardest thing to do you know and and the writing it is so triggering for your perfectionism because you want it to be bulletproof and you want it to go out in the world and you worry all the time about the feedback is going to come after you worry people are going to hate it they're going to hate you they're not going to like the book I put it out into the world I tried to make as bulletproof possible you know what Nicolai people still didn't like it right many people loved it I loved it thank you Nicolai appreciate that but some people didn't and and actually I thought that that was going to be a huge threat like I thought that that was going to be really difficult for me to uh to take but actually it isn't and this is the point I'm trying to make like ju just put it out there like the most important thing is to get things done and know that yes it's not always going to go well there is a good rule of thumb hair even if you do something which is absolutely perfect and correct 10% of people per definition would not like it you would always have people not liking what you do 100% you cannot that's a really good rule to have you cannot please everyone and and there's always going to be bad Fe but there's also going to be criticism and that's and and actually you know it in many ways that's a sign that you've been brave enough to put something in the world for somebody to criticize like it's it's a reinforcement that this is a really difficult and important and achievement and and but you can't experience those feelings unless you get it out there so it's really important to be a creative show vulnerability push yourself forward for things that maybe ordinarily you wouldn't push yourself forward for and learn through that experience that it's okay you also talking about self-compassion what do you what do you put in that well that's an important component of being brave because you're going to encounter situations where things haven't gone quite so well if you are willing to put yourself out there so in those moments you have to then be very clear to yourself that this is part and parcel of a learning process of a growth process and that instead of going in ourselves like your perfectionism would tell you to do how could you be so stupid what were you thinking you need to treat yourself with kindness all the time remind yourself that you are a fallible human being and that sometimes things are going to not go to plan and that's okay this is just part and P of Life uh there's always next time so you you know on top of being bold and courageous and vulnerable you have to at all times be kind to yourself because you are going to hit setbacks and kindness is way better than Chris what parts of perfectionism needs more work and more research those of loads of parts of perfectionism n this is a very um new area uh I think the cultural stuff that you talked about earlier we need way more on this I would love to do cross-cultural comparisons of perfectionism to see where um where levels are higher or lower I think that would be a fascinating research question I think the relationship between perfectionism and performance at work is an important one also to try and unpack a lot of metaanalytical studies shown zero relationship there but I'd like to know why why that is what are the mechanisms is it because Perfections procrastinate is it because Perfections tend to burn out more is it because they just don't deal with stress as effect as as healthfully as non- perfectionistic people again the answer to those questions are still open and I'd love to do more work in that area so crosscultural St Perfections them in the workplace I think these are really important areas of future work well Thomas it's been great to have you on the podcast there is um there is a Japanese aesthetic philosophy which is called vabis saabi which is about the perfect imperfect to celebrate the flaws and the things which are not fantastic perhaps uh that's where we need to go yeah I mean this is a philosophy that teaches us there something beautiful in the broken in the fragile in the in the chinks the curves and the um the harsh edges and that life is finite you know it's uh we are exhaustible creatures and we're mere mortals at the end of the day and and there's something there's something quite joyous about that actually there's so that that knowing those things is incredibly humanizing and I mean I I completely agree I think this is this is a philosophy that um has tremendous potential uh to help us through those difficult moments knowing that that's just part and part of life and sometimes the way things happen and the way things occur is just fate and fate is nothing personal we're just human beings and I think this is this is a nice lesson great band big thank you thank you Nicholai it's been a pleasure