Hello and welcome to the Compassion in Therapy Training Series. I'm Kaleigh Isaacs. I'm the founder of the Awake Network and I'll be your host for this session. I'm so delighted to be here today with Kelly McGonigal to talk about the science of compassion. Kelly is a health psychologist who specializes in understanding the mind body connection. She's the bestselling author of "The Willpower Instinct" and "The Upside of Stress," as well as the "Joy of Movement." Through the Stanford Center of Compassion and Altruism, she helped create Stanford Compassion Cultivation Training. A program, now taught around the world that helps individuals strengthen their empathy, compassion and self-compassion. Currently, Kelly is focusing on the topic of joy. And I've been told that there will be a forthcoming book. So look forward to hearing a little bit about that as well. Thank you so much, Kelly, for being here with us today. Yeah, thank you. You know, compassion is one of my favorite things to talk about. So I just want to start off very basic and just hear your definition of what compassion actually is. Yeah, so I'm trained as an emotion scientist, so I tend to think of compassion as an emotion. It is a response that coordinates our brain and our body, our thoughts, our feelings and our actions to allow us to respond skillfully to suffering or pain. So compassion begins actually kind of begins with a general motivation or disposition to be sensitive to and interested in relieving the pain or suffering in the world. I think one of things that's interesting about emotions is your tendency to have specific emotions, whether it's compassion or anger or fear or sadness or enthusiasm. Like we have these emotional dispositions that are based on our values and our beliefs. And so compassion kind of starts with this basic goodwill and a desire for others to be happy and free from suffering. And then you have this emotional readiness to respond when you become aware of pain or suffering. And as an emotion, if you become aware of pain or suffering, there's a kind of, like an empathic distress where you start to think like, I don't like this. I wish that this could be different in some way. I wish that this person were not suffering or this conflict did not exist. And it gives rise to this motivation to respond with care or with kindness or with action or with listening and presence. And all these changes happen in your brain, in your body, to help you do that effectively. And one of the things I think is really interesting about compassion as an emotion is that even though it's a response to suffering, if it unfolds in its like full glory, it also involves a kind of a warm glow. That is, there's a reward, a sense of connection that's built right into the biology of compassion as an emotion that allows you to feel good about yourself and good about others because you chose to engage or because you were able to make a difference. So I guess that's sort of like my baseline definition. Thank you. That's great. So what does the research currently tell us about some of the impacts of compassion, both receiving and giving compassion? Yeah. I mean, so, you know, going back again to how I think about compassion. As an emotion. It has a certain function. And so the benefits of compassion are achieving the function of the emotion. The reason that human beings have a capacity to notice and respond to suffering is to relieve suffering. I mean, this is going to this probably sounds kind of obvious, but when I think about compassion, I don't think about ancillary benefits. Like if you're compassionate to someone, it'll improve your own immune functioning. I mean, there may be some downstream benefits that we can talk about, but to me, it's so important to focus on what the function of compassion is. And the reason that it's it's built into human nature. It is because life is difficult. People suffer and it's really hard to get through life on your own. You know, human beings are interdependent and we need to be available to help people in their worst moments and to lift them up. So the core benefit of compassion is that you have this capacity. That you are hardwired to be able to find courage and presence and energy and warmth and kindness when the situation demands it, and that if you choose to engage, ideally, you will also it will it will boost your own sense of contribution and belonging and meaning and purpose and strengthen that interdependence that helps people thrive and survive. So the like, the essential benefits of compassion are exactly what the emotion is for. And I think sometimes when I talk about compassion, I often talk about I also talk about it as like a system that you can be a part of where sometimes you are the one receiving the compassion. Sometimes you are the one offering compassion actively, and sometimes you're part of the system where you are observing compassionate actions, so you're witnessing someone else be kind or help or be brave in a way that relieves suffering. And you might be elevated by that. You might feel encouraged by seeing that that good in your community or in your workplace or in your home or wherever you're observing that compassion. And so when you think about the benefits of compassion, I also think about the benefits of being in a system that allows you to have all of those roles and how you know, for compassion to have its strongest benefits and for it to serve the function that it has in human nature, it's really important to create systems and relationships and even within ourselves, beliefs that support our ability to not only be compassionate, but also receive compassion and look around and see that we aren't the only source of compassion in our environment, that there are other people who can contribute and who care. Yeah. What are some of the things that get in the way of that natural flow of compassion to relieve human suffering? Isn't that interesting? Every human instinct has these counter instincts. I mean, there are a lot of things if you think of, if you think of compassion as something that kind of like something I talk about as a train, it kind of chugs along and you can get stuck at different stations along the way that can make it difficult to either engage skillfully or engage in a way that that sustains you rather than depletes you or engage in a way that actually makes a difference. You can get stuck sort of along the path of compassion. And one of the very early ways that you can get blocked is kind of suffering blindness, kind of inattention. Sometimes we can be very self focused or sometimes we can have a lack of curiosity about other people's experiences or even just a lack of attention to signals of distress. I mean, even literally, if we're just if we're so stuck looking at devices, it can be harder to notice other people's facial expressions or it can be harder for somebody to reach out and let you know that they need help. So that's the first roadblock is are you in a state where you can notice that somebody needs compassion? That compassion would be useful in the situation? And then as sort of chugging along in this compassion pathway. You can get stuck at the stage where you have an emotional reaction like distress. Oh my gosh, that person is suffering. And you can veer off into just kind of like catching the suffering. Like that person's scared Now I'm scared, that person, sad now I'm sad or that person is sick now I'm afraid. Or you know, that person is angry. I need to get out of here. We can have these these rather than being like a complimentary response. We can have a kind of contagious response or a self-protective response where now we have to deal with a difficult emotion that actually would lead us to avoid engaging or be less skillful at being able to engage. But let's say we had an empathic response that gives rise to a motivation to help. So we see the suffering. We may be distressed by it, but we're we're grounded enough or we're connected enough to to some perspective that allows us to want to engage. And then you have to decide that there's something that you can do. This is not always the case. You know, compassion is not, compassionate thoughts are possible in any circumstance. But compassion as an emotion isn't really about your thoughts. It's about your actions and your ability to to engage in a way that makes a difference. So you could get stuck at compassionate thoughts and feelings, but maybe feel like there's nothing I can do in this situation. And sometimes that is reality, but often it can just be a sense of feeling low compassion efficacy. Maybe you're exhausted. Maybe you're overwhelmed with your own stress. You don't have a lot left to give. Maybe you can't think of anything that would actually help. Maybe you undervalue the benefit of just being there with someone. If you think you can't take away their pain, you don't understand that you might actually relieve their suffering just by being present. So there are so many ways we can get in our in our heads about limitations, or there can be actual real limitations that make it difficult to respond. And then, like, we're still moving on. But I'll skip some of the barriers. But I'll say one of the the final barriers that I think is important to mention is there's this concept in the science called "compassion pseudo-inefficacy". So that means false inefficacy. False ineffectiveness. And sometimes, you know, compassion becomes more self-sustaining when, let's say you are with someone who's in pain or you help someone out who needs concrete help, or you forgive someone who you choose to forgive, like you've done something and it actually does improve the situation and relieve suffering. Sometimes you just can't feel it. You don't know how to accept gratitude or you have a story in your head that what you do doesn't matter, or all you can focus on is the people you couldn't help. And you get kind of lost in that sense of maybe I helped one person, but there are 10 or 20 or a thousand people I didn't help. And you can feel like what you did didn't matter. And that can become a block to how compassion is meant to kind of settle as an experience in this warm glow where you feel your values affirmed and you feel connected to other people and it gives you a kind of a recharge, a renewal, so that you could engage again the next time the compassionate instinct gets alerted. So those are just some of the ways that compassion can can become blocked or a golf course or so many other ways. And I think it's nice. I'm glad you asked about it, because it's so important to recognize that that even when we have strong intentions, there are things that can make compassion difficult. And I know you and I have talked about this many times, but I think one of the things that makes my perspective on compassion different than than some other people's is that because I'm so focused on compassion as an emotion and just like the biology of human nature, I'm very aware that compassion is an energetic biological response that requires energy, that requires resources. And, you know, in that way it's similar to so many of the other amazing capacities humans have, like to run long distances or grow a child and give birth to a child. Like these are biological capacities that are hard and they require energy and support and yeah, and courage actually, all those things I mentioned also require some courage. So thank you. There's so much I want to follow up on there. So for those who are working with people who are suffering on a daily basis, especially in the therapeutic process, what are some ways to bolster those resources or make sure that the key elements are flowing in that way, where you're receiving the warm glow and and some of those other aspects that allow that natural human response to keep happening. Yeah. I think, you know, especially because of who the audience for this event is. One of the things I want to highlight is something that probably most people who are here with us today already do. I want you to value that and understand that as like a biologically consequential act of compassion, which is your ability to be with someone. One of the things I have gotten really interested in as I've been studying, joy is our ability to synchronize physiologically and neurologically with other people through a kind of positive regard and presence. That when you are in, especially when you're in a physical space, when you're actually in the same room with someone. But it can also happen virtually to some degree, but especially when you're physically present with someone. And you attune to them with this kind of just basic level of goodwill and attention. And this this physical shared space. Your body starts to align your breathing, your heart rhythms and your brainwaves. And what's interesting is. Most people experience that as a soothing and rewarding state to be in. That is something that is like an act of compassion. Like that when you are able to create that kind of physiological synchrony just through basic attention and goodwill. It has the effect of a true act of comfort or encouragement or kindness, but one that can be kind of easier for some people to receive, who would get overwhelmed by really obvious acts of compassion or expressions of empathy. And so probably there are the people who are here with us today are already doing that kind of act of compassion through their skills, through their presence and through their orientation to other human beings in their work, and to value that, to know that although we were talking about compassion as something that requires a response, it doesn't require being able to take away another human being's pain or suffering in this moment by solving their problems. And so when you're thinking about being able to appreciate what you do and not fall into that trap of pseudo-inefficacy, to actually trust and value your own skillset and your own presence. And that would be true not just in a professional capacity, but, you know, as you know, I just got back from being with my father in home hospice care. There is no doubt that literally just being with and being beside is an act of compassion that relieves pain and suffering. Could you share with us some of the mechanisms of how that happens, Kelly? How does it relieve suffering just to be in the presence of another individual that's really being with us? Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you know, how does it happen? I think that, you know, one thing I fall back on is there is no doubt that so much of the wiring of our nervous systems and the structure of our brains that they are built or designed or adapted to help us connect with others. I mean, this is like just a profound truth about the about who humans are. And so, you know, one study that that I looked at people I don't know how they get ethical approval to do these sort of things, but this was a study where where a romantic couple came into the laboratory and one partner was going to receive thermal pain so that you get heat applied to your forearm. And it's calibrated. I'm trying to remember in the study was calibrated to something to be like on a scale of zero, no pain to 100, the worst imaginable pain that no human could endure. It's calibrated really high to like a 60 or 70. So we're talking real pain. And in some of those situations, they put the partner outside the room just to watch. And sometimes they put the partner in the room just to be there. And in some situations, they had the partner, I believe, hold their hand right? And the closer the person got into the room, the more their brain, their brainwaves synchronized. And it was actually interesting. You've ever seen brain imaging studies that look at the relationship between two different brains? There are two ways that brains can synchronize. Like, let's pretend it's our brains right now. If we were doing let's do an action together. Let's, like, pretend that we're clapping together. Got this? Yeah. We're so good at that. Okay. If we kept doing this, our brains would synchronize in a way that they're doing the same thing at the same time. Do you know what I mean? Our brainwaves would look like our clapping because we're engaged in the same action. But another way that your brains can become synchronized is that my brain activity can somehow reach out. I can't explain this and then change what's happening in your brain in a way that relieves your pain and suffering, which is what was happening in this study. As partners moved from outside to inside and then to just holding their hand, so the closer they got to compassionate presence, the more the partners brain seemed to reach into the person in pain's brain and change what was happening in a way that dramatically reduced their felt experience of pain and the activity in the partner's brain who wasn't in pain. It was related to their also their empathic accuracy. So to the degree that I understand how much pain you're in and there is activity in my brain related to empathy for you, that activity was directly related to the activity in your brain that was reducing or relieving pain. So rather than like our brains clapping together, it was like somehow my brain was going in with an analgesic effect of compassionate presence, that that changed how your brain was processing pain. So and again, the question like how? What? Neuroscientists don't know exactly how brains talk to each other, how brainwaves coordinate. But I think you know that since I can't explain it, I always fall back on this idea that we're built for this. That physical presence is actually really important. And that. I think, to to understand how important it is to be able to do both sides of that equation as well. You know, one thing we haven't talked about is what gets in the way of receiving compassion. And I was just looking at there's a new review paper that was looking again at the relationship between compassion for others and compassion for self. And so often we hear that, oh, you can't be compassionate for others unless you have compassion for yourself. And that's not what the research shows. There are a lot of people who can have compassion for others but have a hard time with compassion for themselves and especially having a hard time receiving compassion from others. That dimension of self compassion. And I think when I think about that study where one person is in pain and their partner's presence, that person's brain can come in and make your brain regulate your pain in a way that relieves your suffering. You have to be open to that. And there are certain certain beliefs and attitudes that we have that make us more or less receptive to being regulated by other people. That, you know, if you are if you if you work with other people who have these challenges, you know, some people are harder to to offer presence to. But even those of us who love to help others, we can sometimes be the hardest people to be receptive as well. So when I think about developing your capacity for compassion, I really urge people to consider how much you are allowing yourself to be receptive rather than like immune to the compassion that is coming at you. I want to loop back around to this idea of how we can sort of develop our capacity for compassion in general and also our capacity to receive. But I just want to touch on one of the obstacles that you brought as well. So you're speaking about this sort of response where sometimes we can receive someone else's suffering almost like a contagious response, where we experience the pain in a way that actually makes us less supportive, less able to relieve suffering and brings upon our own suffering. Can you speak about why that sort of happens? And especially for people that are working with others who are going through a lot of their own process, how one might protect against that? Yeah, it's a hard one because even the idea that you need to protect against it starts to create new barriers to compassion. So the reason it happens is that compassion as an emotional response, it relies on a kind of more primitive capacity for empathy. Which one, the most primitive form of empathy is true contagion, where you witness something happening and your brain creates a mirrored response or a simulation to help you understand it. So if you see someone in pain, it can activate the pain inducing regions in your own brain. Or you see someone who's sad and it activates sad circuits in your own brain. That's a foundation for compassion. If you block, if you try to block that, you will have a very different, you can have compassion that is kind of cool and calculated. You know, you see a lot of that in like emergency situations where people don't have time for the empathy. They're being, they're being compassionate by the definition of the outcome. There's something you can do that relieves suffering, but that requires a lot of, you know compartmentalizing and skill training, and I think a lot of people they're, the form of compassion that they're interested in extending to others doesn't try to bypass the empathy, but is looking for a way to actually feel the empathy and then transition and transform it into something that can hold the empathy but not become overwhelmed by it. And so this is where I mean, this is why mindfulness practices, grounding practices, wisdom practices are so important for compassion. Because what often helps when you're starting to catch the suffering is it's not it's not the sharp boundaries and compartmentalization. If you're like a surgeon who doesn't have time to cry about someone who might die if you don't give them the surgery. It requires a softer kind of boundary or distancing. Where you can sense yourself as someone in relationship to a situation that that has that is not fully inside of you. It's a it's a hard to explain. It's kind of it's almost like if you were to think about different vantage points that you could have if you were on top of a mountain and you were looking down and you'd have a kind of bigger perspective on things. That's the kind of vantage point that often helps when you're in empathic distress because empathic distress can pull you in and you get this kind of like tight focus that makes it hard to breathe, that makes you want to escape or that can drive you towards less skillful responses. It has that urgency either to escape or to fix. And so we often need practices that allow us to pull back a little bit, breathe and have an awareness of some part of ourselves who has a role to play in this, as opposed to someone who is consumed by the suffering that you're engaging with. It's a hard. See that? Like that sounds it sounds really abstract. But sometimes it's as simple as sensing your feet on the floor. Often the same kind of skills that a mental health professional might teach to someone who's overwhelmed by any type of distress. It's a similar kind of process of, this is what I feel in my body. This is what I'm seeing from my vantage point. Yeah. I appreciate that. And actually, the other thing I wanted to say. Empathy as an instinct has different consequences for positive and negative emotions. And so one of the other ways, if you're someone who gets easily overwhelmed by empathic distress, you can actually leverage your sensitivity to create more balance. So positive empathy runs on the same kind of primitive empathic instinct as empathy for distress or pain, in that it creates in you a replication of the joy or the excitement or the enthusiasm or the inspiration or the love. And so one of the ways that you can work with empathic distress is to get your radar, your empathy radar and reset it a little bit so that you are actively looking for positive emotions to catch as well. To look for either in the actual situation of suffering because there often are moments of connection or lightness or love, even in difficult situations, or turn your attention to the broader world and look for other events and other circumstances that that give you an opportunity to experience contagious joy. Because that form of empathy is so invigorating, is so renewing. It doesn't deplete in the way that empathy for negative emotions can. And I, I think that rather than you'd mentioned, how can you protect against the effects of empathic distress? Sometimes we have to lean into our sensitivities. This is something that I have done, is to really try to tune my empathy radar to the good so that there is a sense of more balance rather than try to dial down my sensitivity to the bad. Yeah, I love your sharing sort of a porous version of boundaries rather than a brick wall to protect and keep things out. You're allowing the good and also the feeling in and sort of self-regulating in a way. Is that. Yeah I mean I it's just I'm trying to think like a brick wall. Yeah. That boundary makes me think of like wanting to go into a safe room. Like, yeah, there are some situations like it's all too much. Yeah. That brick wall is really hard to be compassionate through. Yeah. I feel like that's just an interesting contemplation for me these days around boundaries and a lot of things, sometimes advocating that sort of protection. And there can be so much that's closed off in that process. And, you know, one way to think about boundaries for me is to think about temporal boundaries also. So I mentioned to you that I view because I view compassion from this biological framework. To me it's running on the same energy that other capacities run on that requires energy. It's not unlimited, unlimitedly sustainable without rest, support from others, inspiration and elevation, sleep. You know, there are certain things that compassion as an active response capacity it depends on. And so when I think of boundaries, you know, sometimes I think about the boundaries you put around you being the compassionate responder and that there can be there can, you can choose for yourself to kind of shift the roles. Which doesn't mean that if, you know, some some emergency happen that you wouldn't be able to respond compassionately, but that you can have a sense of stepping into that role. Where in this with in this time I choose to be open in this way and to use my energy, but also to know I need a certain amount of time where I'm going to let other people be the compassionate force in the world. If that's possible. And so time can be a boundary as well as and by time time spent, not just sleeping or eating or not working, but also time that you allow yourself to experience the things that re-energize and elevate you so that, you know, as a as a form of self- care that supports collective care. And that's another way to deal with the sometimes the burden of empathic distress. It's really hard to stay engaged in difficult roles in which you are making a difference in the world and not experience high levels of empathic distress. I really wouldn't trust somebody who said they're doing it and it's like, does, it's nothing on me. I just. I just go in there. It's about suffering, and I help. And so you need to find the things in life that that really give back to you so that you can choose that role. So you helped to create this amazing Compassion Cultivation Training Program. What are some of the ways that compassion can actually be cultivated? Yeah, it's so one of the things, this is like the secret first step of the Compassion Cultivation Training is just by signing up for it you are affirming compassion as a value, which actually I think is an underappreciated first step to cultivating compassion. And it's, you know, not to not to perseverate on this, but you had asked what are the benefits of compassion? And I really feel like it's important for talking about something like strengthening compassion. You can try to sell compassion with benefits, which is not values affirmation where you can describe what compassion is and say, Does this sound good to you? Do you want to be able to respond to pain and suffering in a way that helps others and also uplifts you? Do you want to be able to see the good in the world and be elevated by it? Do you want to be more open to other people's care and kindness for yourself? Do you want do you want to be able to be kind to yourself when you need to be? That, not some other benefits. Not like it'll make you better at work or less stressed. Or you know, live longer, but the actual thing itself. Do you value that? Does that sound like who you want to be in the world? That's how that's how we try to sell compassion is through a connection to to, you know, a core, core human needs. And the fact that we have this capacity and most people actually have this as a value. So that's the first step. You cultivate it by, you know, not thinking of it as transactional, but thinking like, yeah, this is this is a way that I want to be in the world. And then, you know, we, we then it's almost like we march through the different steps that I talked about. Being, choosing to be aware of other people, turning our attention to the fact that all human beings suffer and all human beings want to be free from suffering and we practice equality of attention. That's really rooted in a basic goodwill, a basic, loving kindness towards other people and to ourselves. And just establishing that that disposition, that is a ground for which when you then notice pain or suffering, you start to feel that motivation to relieve it. And we, you know, we have these practices that go through the different stages. But I think what we focus on the most in CCT is the creating the increasing your readiness to respond with compassion. That's how I would say what what we're really doing rather than focusing in like skills, like how do you listen compassionately or what is the most skillful way to relieve physical pain versus emotional pain rather than practicing compassion skills, CCT really tries to create a mental, psychological, physical, physiological and social environment in which you are, your readiness for compassion is strengthened. And. And you're you know, you are able to experience your natural capacity for compassion in a way that feels supported, in a way that feels sustainable. What do you see the role of sort of formal practices or meditations versus in everyday life sort of opening to that awareness that you just shared? Yeah, I think, you know, so one of the practices that we teach in CCT that I think of as being really core and transformational is Tonglen, this meditation where you imagine breathing in suffering, making that, suffering makes contact with your compassionate motivation and like just the basic human capacity for compassion. It makes contact with that something bigger than you and it allows you to breathe out hope, love, strength, encouragement, compassion. And I think like that that's my favorite of you're going to sit down and do something because it's so similar to what you actually have to do in real life when you're confronted with pain and suffering, right? You notice it, and in that moment you connect to your physiological capacity to respond. But you also need to connect with that part of you that's bigger than like, frantic Kelly needs to solve suffering. There's something bigger, whether it's wisdom or the human capacity for compassion, whatever, however you think about it, that allows you to shift into a mode of being with and responding, that's a little bit more skillful. So I love like that kind of formal practice. But there are other things that that I think of as formal practices that other people might not necessarily think of as meditations. Like if you're on a bus looking at the person next to you and thinking that person might be suffering right now in ways that are not visible to me and being curious about it, that is an essential kind of reflection or contemplation to do to the point where you are not surprised by suffering. You don't have like this, this belief that so many people have, that other people are happier and their lives are easier. So I think of those as being essential contemplations. But when it comes to the next step. I think that, you know, we talked about how humans are interdependent. And so for me, the idea that compassion would be like a do it yourself project in your head, that would be a limited framework. And so we do these practices in our head with a very explicit intention to look for opportunities in the real world to enact those values or those attitudes. And going back a little bit to when you were speaking of some of these obstacles for those that might have difficulty receiving compassion, whether it's self-compassion or compassion from others, what are some ways of working with that, whether it's for yourself or with clients? Yeah. You know, so the biggest, the biggest psychological reason for having that barrier is attachment insecurity, which probably I, I think. Do you think most people. Should we talk about what that is or most people understand secure attachment? Yes? Okay. So, you know, if you're asking like how to actually deal with it, finding ways to to increase your willingness to be close to others, to depend on others, and to increase your sense that other people are trustworthy rather than fundamentally untrustworthy. I mean, that's if you want to become more open to receiving compassion, that's the if you want to dig in, that's really where the roots are. But if you're looking for a simpler way in, like, you know, that that's going to take a lot of therapy, that's good get started on that and also something that you can do immediately. I love the practice of allowing yourself to be uplifted by witnessing other people's exchanges of compassion. So I'll give you an example. In when I teach CCT, I often will have people listen to a podcast called StoryCorps and StoryCorps, they bring together two people who have played an important role in each other's lives. And sometimes it's a long relationship. Like the teacher who really supported me when I was a child and had a difficult home environment. But sometimes it's the one person, it's the ER doctor who helped in an extreme crisis and, you know, for ten minutes. But it was so important and life changing and they get these people together to talk about the experience that they shared. And what's so wonderful is like, you see, you see how both people are uplifted by the experience, the person who was helped and the person who was doing the helping. You see the beauty of the full cycle, the relationship. And so I think allowing yourself to be moved by witnessing the beauty of the full cycle, not just the helper, but the person who's helped and just how necessary that is and meaningful that is for both people to let yourself be moved by that is an emotional way to prime yourself to recognize when it's your turn to be the one who receives. And understand that as an essential part of being human. I have worked on this, if you can tell. I mean, this is this is something I've had to work on. I think about. There's an experience I had, when was this was this was early 2020. And I remember. So it was I was probably one of the first people to have Covid before we knew what it was. I was so sick and I had walked to CVS to try to buy medicine because I was at home alone and I was so sick and exhausted I'd forgotten to bring my ID and they wouldn't let me buy the medicine. And I'm like crying on the conveyor belt. I'm like, "I don't have the energy to go home and get my ID," and I just wanted some medicine to feel better. And the woman behind me had an ID and bought the medicine for me. And you would think that this would be like an experience it'd be like, wow, a stranger helped me. But I remember being so ashamed. I was just. I was so. I felt so ashamed to be the person who was that vulnerable in that situation. And if I had been an outside observer, I would have been like, how lovely that was. The stranger helped this woman who was practically collapsing in the CVS. And that was a real turning point for me to recognize like, why are you so ashamed? Why is this? Why do you feel like a bad human being because you needed help from a stranger in this situation? And so, yeah, if over the past four years, it's been a really important part of exploration for me to realize that especially as somebody who cares about compassion, that you have to, I have to fully embrace what it means to allow that that stranger. Hopefully she was uplifted. Hopefully she went home and told someone about how she got to help a sick stranger in CVS and felt, you know, felt her value for compassion affirmed. So I'm wondering. I just want to try an experiment. You have painted a picture of these different moments of compassion and different opportunities to open and the sort of naturalness of it. Could you walk us through this sort of full compassion loop of of a compassionate act from the, including all the parties and what that sort of looks like when everything is flowing? I love that. You're like, we can put witnesses in here, right? Because I have to tell you. So in working on this this new book about Joy, one of the things that I ask people is, tell me your favorite memory of joy. Or tell me about something that brought you joy recently. So many people share moments of witnessing other people's acts of kindness or compassion. So I love that we can actually include in the full compassionate response the fact that there are people who can observe this and be uplifted or encouraged by that. So we'll put that out there too. Yeah. So compassion begins with pain or suffering that is present and real. Right. So that is a reality in the world. And somebody. Becomes aware of it. Brings it to mind or directly perceives it. It could be your own suffering. But we'll, for this sort of classic case. Because when you when you think about compassion as an emotion or an instinct, it most likely evolved. It's adapted for person to person help. It didn't evolve for you to have as a response to yourself. Although we can try to we can try to turn it in that direction. So we'll stick with classic compassion. Someone's in pain. Someone becomes aware of it, turns their attention to it, and. And has the presence of mind, the capacity that fundamental disposition to witness suffering and not be happy about it, not to not be also to have no response to it, to actually have a response where you want to relieve that pain or suffering. So from that awareness. Usually what happens next is this kind of empathic response where you feel some distress. Sometimes people don't always feel a contagious stress. Sometimes what you feel is actually like love. So it's not it's not like a fixed thing where you have to experience the contagious sadness or fear or pain. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes people experience instead this kind of warmth, a love that feels more like a caregiving instinct. Like if you had a baby and the baby was crying, you wouldn't necessarily start crying too. And think I'm cranky I'm hungry too. Sometimes you might. It depends on your own state. But most of the time you might just have a complementary response that's like, let me step in. I feel. I feel love or connection or warmth or just a desire to give care. So there's something going on that feels kind of emotionally charged. We have this desire to respond. And then all sorts of other things start kicking in. So your brain is going to be problem solving. Your brain is going to be trying to access strategies and skills. And this is where that that kind of discernment or wisdom or training comes into play, where you now have to turn to the suffering and make decisions about how to respond. And there are all these channels that you can go to. You can go to presence, listening, touch, emergency responding, physical action, physical, tangible help and support. You could pull back and think about the causes of the suffering and be even more strategic about long term change that you might need to create. So there's this. There's this, it's this. We don't often talk about this process of compassion, but the brain is sorting through options and making predictions about the value of different responses. And depending on your orientation, your compassion may be very present moment focused or your compassion may be very long term focused. I don't know if you have. So, for example, for me, I am so present moment focused like I am not the person who is going to change the world. I. I don't even think about the future very often. I'm so tuned to, like, now. Can I make now better? Can I? You have a you have a dog. Can I put the dog in your lap? Are you in less pain now because the dog is in your lap? That's like that's my kind of compassion. Do you know what I mean? And other people have this have a different kind of skill set where they're like, I'm going to change the circumstance, the system. You know, your compassion can drive you in different directions depending on your temperament and your and your strengths. Okay, so let's say you've done something and then there's this. There is this energetic and cognitive checking in with how things are going. And that's part of compassion. That is, you have to continue to pay attention to the thing that gave rise to your compassionate response. Like making eye contact with the person who's in pain or asking them what they need. Is this helping? Or looking at the actual consequences of the changes you're trying to make? There is this there's this process of checking in and being responsive. Compassion is very responsive. And this, you know, can have this could last for seconds, minutes, hours, weeks, years, depending on what suffering you're trying to relieve. But let's say, let's let's wrap this up. Let's say it was a simple interaction, like the kind that I'm better equipped to do, like put a dog in someone's lap and be like, "Let's breathe and let this puppy look your face." Which, by the way, is a skillful intervention. If anyone is doubting that, you know, just go into a hospital and look at when they put puppies in people's laps. So that you've done something in an attempt to relieve pain or suffering. And I would say that the sort of the closure of that experience is interdependent. It's shared. That if you if you've been effective in some way, you should be able to sense through the relationship with the situation or the person. There should be an increased connection and an awareness of your values and the outcome that uplift you. And, you know, in the brain, you're going to see the reward system activated and the meaning system activated together so that you start to feel good about the interaction. It's it's rewarding in the sense that it's going to encourage you to engage in this way again. It's rewarding in the sense that it's going to help you feel more connected to whether it's a cause or a human being or community that you were able to engage in compassion with. And ideally the other person would feel that as well, that that both people would feel that increase, that increase intensity of connection and interdependence in a way that gives a warm glow. But, you know, as we mentioned, that doesn't always happen. Like if you're someone like me at the CVS who's think, who's ashamed of needing help, you can see how this stuff gets and can get blocked. But in theory, that's how that happens. And then let's throw in all the witnesses again. There could be somebody who saw it. Could be, you know, a family member or a stranger or a classroom full of people who witnessed something. And ideally, witnessing compassion is going to increase people's commitment to positive interdependence. When you witness compassion, it strengthens your commitment both to the like that the community in which you witnessed it, like if you witnessed it in your neighborhood, you feel better about your neighborhood, your school, your workplace, your whatever the it is, and also should strengthen your commitment to just interdependent life in general. And the value of compassion. That's the whole cycle. Thank you, Kelly. I love zooming out and just seeing the whole process laid out. And to close, I'm wondering if you might be able to lead us through a guided practice that might be from your Compassion Cultivation Training or just one that you think might be helpful to touch in with what we've been speaking about? Let me teach you a practice that I think of as increasing your biological readiness for compassion and for joy. Let me describe what it is. Because it's funny, I actually remember leading a version of this practice with you in another event and seeing in the chat that people were misunderstanding what the practice was. And I was like, we should be really clear about what this is that we're doing. So I call this heart breathing. There are a lot of different versions of this, but it basically combines two things. One is that both compassion and joy physiologically, they often bring the nervous system into this interesting state of both readiness to respond to life. But also groundedness and calm. That's not like dissociative or relaxation. But it's this, it's this nice balanced state of the nervous system ready to respond, but also grounded and connected. So we're going to breathe in a way that helps shift us in that direction. And also, we know that when you ask people to describe what compassion feels like or what joy feels like, both of those emotions are often heart centered. People feel it as like a warm glow, fullness of the heart, especially the aspects of compassion that are not empathic distress. Right. Not like the heart pounding or the overwhelm, but that like the being moved, the wanting to help, the feeling connected or the warm glow afterwards. As well as when people feel joy, they often they feel it here. So this breathing practice is going to increase your ability to notice real physiological signals that that come to you in moments of compassion and joy. You can actually increase physical sensations from your heart, your chest, your breathing. So we're going to bring our attention there. What this practice is not because we're going to be practicing breathing and feeling the heart. Some sometimes people think of this as a practice of like opening your heart, like increase your vulnerability, like just that. You know what I'm talking about? That's actually not what this practice is. I think of this as a practice more of it's a stabilizing practice that brings awareness to a part of your biology that allows you to respond to difficult moments with compassion. And positive moments with celebration and connection and appreciation. So. Well, what we're going to do. I always set this. I don't want anyone to ever be surprised by a practice like, my gosh, she's having me breathe in my heart now. So we're going to breathe. We're going to breathe in a way that is kind of slow and deep, but don't over control it, because as soon as you're trying to control your breath too much, you're creating a kind of tension that's incompatible with compassion and joy. So we'll breathe. We'll take it kind of easy and then I'll have you bring awareness to physical sensations around the chest and heart, not to try to force or create "compassion or joy," but just awareness. And then the final step is to actually imagine that you could breathe in and out of your chest, which is something we sometimes do in that Tonglen practice that I mentioned, this idea that you can breathe in and out right through here. Kind of bypass the face. Bypass the ego. Bypass the nostrils. And just breathe right in here as a way of connecting that, that core capacity to respond to life with compassion and joy. Should we do it? I wish I had a cat back on my lap for this. It really helps if you if you have a pet who wants to sit on your lap. It's really effective for both compassion and joy. Okay, so. But you. Or you could just be with your self here. You could rest your hands on your own lap, finding yourself in the position that you're in. You don't need to even overcorrect it or make it perfect. You're going to just have this breathing experience in reality, in the moment that is. Turn your attention to your breathing. And let's release some tension, if there is any. So breathe in through your nose. Exhale through your mouth like a sigh. And if your shoulders happen to lift when you breathe, then that's fine because you can drop them as you breathe out through the mouth. You can even put some extra attention in like yawn, stretch tension in your back or your hands or your face. And then. Let it out. Do anything you want. Just relax your face. Even if there's a sense of having to put a mask on the face. Relax that. And then inhaling and exhaling through the nose. Notice that you're already breathing. And breathe in a way that feels comfortable and not rushed. I sometimes like to think of sipping the breath in like, breathe in, breathe in, breathe in a little more and exhale easily. And you're going to take whatever pace feels good to you. That feels like a relaxed inhale to a comfortable fullness. An easy out breath. Just letting go. This step on its own could be a way to increase your readiness for compassion or joy. You don't even need to go to another step if you like this step. Or you only have time for that step. But if you want to go a step further. Can bring a hand to your chest. And maybe a hand to your belly. And there's this natural expansion that happens when you breathe in. So if you can feel it underneath your palms. And that expansion dissolves when you breathe out. And you can again feel it under your palms, your fingertips. Well, depending on where you are, you might even be able to take the palm of one or both hands, to the skin of your chest. I can't with what I'm wearing right now. But you might be able to actually feel some skin to skin contact. And you could even massage the chest a little bit or put some pressure there. Just to increase your awareness of sensation in this part of your body where we often receive signals of compassion, care, love, courage and joy. And coming back to that idea that when you breathe in, there's expansion. Maybe see if you can feel that expansion under your hand that's on the chest. Not needing to force it in any way. But is there a feeling of lightness or fullness when you breathe in? And a sense of ease when you breathe out? And as a final stage of breathing imagery, you could return your hands to your belly or to your lap or anywhere, to your pet in your lap. And imagine that you could breathe in and out of your chest, almost like your nostrils were on your chest. It's a silly image, but there's a feeling to it if you don't think about it too hard. Like the breath could come in and strengthen your heart. Or like your breath out could be a way of sending compassion or joy into the world. And again, there might be a sense of fullness. Or lightness. Awareness around the chest and heart. And this could be a great time to bring to mind someone that you know is suffering in some way. And just in your own mind, connect to your desire to relieve that suffering. Maybe imagine that your breath out could send them some love. Or support. Or laughter. Or lightness. And then you could also choose to bring to mind someone or something that brings you joy, someone or something you're grateful for. Find that that ability to connect to the energy of joy as something that also supports our compassionate instinct and capacity. Maybe bring to mind someone or something you're grateful for or someone or something that makes you smile. And notice how connected these two forces are. Compassion and joy. If your eyes are closed, you can open your eyes. Look around the world. The space. And you know, what I love about that practice is each step kind of builds on itself. And if you found a step you liked, you got to stay there. You don't necessarily have to move on. Or you could skip ahead to the step that that felt most nourishing or strengthening. Thank you so much, Kelly. As we're closing, I wonder if you have just a moment to share with us. I know so much of your work has been focused around compassion and now turning a lot of your passion towards joy. I just would love to hear any closing thoughts on what's inspiring you in that direction? Yeah. So let me I'll share with you when I think about the relationship between joy and compassion, there's a particular type of joy. That I've been trying to convince people to value more by describing it as like the the partner of compassion. So for people who are here, they probably already value compassion, this ability to meet pain or suffering with a kind of love, support and care so that people are not alone in their pain or suffering. We value that. What I've been trying to get people to value as much, I call it celebration or meeting joy with joy. And that is when you find yourself in the presence of someone who is experiencing something good. To allow yourself to meet their joy with joy in the same way that you would meet their pain with compassion to allow it to activate in you positive empathy to in the same way that someone in pain you might offer a hug. You can do the same thing when someone is experiencing something positive, a hug, a high five, a smile, encouraging words. Just as much as people do not want to be alone in their pain or suffering. Most of the time people do not want to be alone in their joy. They want to be affirmed for who and what they love, for what's meaningful to them, for their accomplishments, for the things they find beautiful in life. People want that to be affirmed as much as we crave relief from pain and suffering. And I think that if you if you've made it this far, valuing compassion to think about it as being as important a gift that you can offer to others to when you see somebody who's really excited about something or something good happened to them to amplify their joy and meaning, it's one of the easiest ways to show someone that they matter and to show someone that you care about them. I mean, just think about if I were to ask you whose joy brings you joy, you probably think of hopefully at least one person. Like if they're happy, it makes you so happy to see them happy. It's just just imagine what it's like to be on the receiving end of that. It's like, I'll bring it back to pets one more time. Your dog hasn't seen you in a while. Have you seen have you seen reunions where a dog and their owner come together again and it's like you've never seen someone so happy as this dog. You know you're loved when someone shows joy in your presence, when when you bring joy to someone else. And so one of the clearest ways to show someone that they matter, that they belong, that they're cared about is when they are experiencing something good, let it evoke joy in you. In the same way that you would respond to their suffering with care or compassion and trust that is as important a way of of connecting. What a beautiful note to end on. Thank you so much, Kelly. You're welcome.