I think AI overall though is far bigger than people realize people are scared of it there's so much fear of like I'm going to lose my job the robots are going to kill [Music] us and that Providence moment of truth's about to come very handy cuz AI is about to make a lot of fake stuff there's already videos of me on the internet of me saying things in my voice that I didn't say I'm thinking about becoming a music artist I think I can be good at music one problem I can't sing for [ __ ] and I'm not Musical it's pendulum swings technology in technology out and I think I will use AI to actually make hit music I really believe that before I'm done I would argue food styling and commercials is more [ __ ] AI than AI yeah I haven't seen a [ __ ] Whopper in my life yeah that looks like the ones on TV I think that this is a demonization of modern technology that is a misnomer of human behavior there will be incredible room for originally created Human Art but there will be incredible room for generative art so I haven't had a full conversation with anybody yet this week on the record about AI I figure you are a good person to pick their brain on around Ai and less about where it's going to go in marketing and advertising but more how consumers are overall going to feel about it and general Society CU I think you have generally been smart about how you think about the future um and so I I want to start with actually looking back for a moment you know you made a huge bet on nfts and eventually morphed it into Vayner 3 yep uh as you saw the nft market change and how Society feels about metaverse and all that change over time so I'm curious what lessons you learned from that knowing that AI is also the next big thing and I know they're different because that was a platform and this is a society changing techology no it's a it's a very smart question no no I think you're right similarities it's interesting like if you look back at my content on web 3 and specifically nfts and you got to dissect it I think the same thing is going to happen with AI you're going to appreciate this in a world where everything is headline reading yeah I'm sure that you actually I'm C I need to start asking more journalists like how they feel about most people just reading their headline and not their actual work so let's break it down uh I'll go backwards and I'll go forwards backwards so much of our biggest point of view was that metaverse wasn't real that there was nobody actually there back to day trading attention yeah comma blockchain was a profound technology I think blockchain's relationship with AI and deep fake videos is going to be a really interesting conversation over the next 10 years yeah three you know my biggest point of view is that 99% of nfts were going to go to zero and that the 1% would be meaningful Collectibles like trading cards and comic books and and uh sneak speakers biggest learnings that I apply to where we're going to go with AI one they are different because the nft was a form an individual form factor on top of a technology yeah uh that was also based on collectible speculation which created so much of the radical ups and downs yeah AI is oxygen it's such a profound overwhelming technology but I think I think the parallels will be similar for Madison Avenue I think the biggest observation is that uh M Madison Avenue is very different than Silicon Valley yeah so I think the depth of conversation at AI at the conference has been really interesting it's by far the buzziest word yeah I think back to what I focus on with it which is about like today yeah I think the biggest AI conversation that I'm sh you know what I was surprised about even though I you know was funny you said earlier it wasn't surprised but I was surprised yeah I'm not I'm not surprised but I'm surprised the biggest AI conversation currently in marketing is the algorithms of the four U pages of all these social networks yeah the most significant AI that our industry is feeling is in that environment H now to Consumer yeah uh people are scared of it there's so much fear of like I'm going to lose my job this is bad the robots are going to kill us so there'll be a sector that I think will be similar to electricity when it first came out yeah electricity was like incredibly demonized when it was first available to people the most common belief at the time was there was demons in it and so you should still use candles yeah cool right yeah have you do you know that have you ever heard Google it or or chat GPT it back to the point perplexity it or perplexity it um so so I think that's what's that that's my historical comp that I'm feeling people are very very worried about it yeah I think you'll have a a a a group of that I think there's we're already seeing profound profound consumer changes so I hate using a focus group of one but boy did it capture my attention my 37-year-old brother and co-founder Vayner who runs our sports agency now he doesn't use search anymore at all 100% of his search behavior is that chat chbt or perplex or things of that nature so I think you're going to have an entire generation of gen Alpha and young gen Z that is going to like potentially probably gen Alpha potentially live in a world where they don't even know what a search engine is the way that how old are you 36 did you ever use the Yellow Pages yeah oh yeah yeah you caught it a little bit 30 no but you're right no no no but you're you know as you know if you have if you have a younger sing libling under 30 like no shot that there's people 25 that don't even know when I use the reference they don't even know yeah so I I think it's going to be the classic thing I do think the te I I view that so nfts was a build on top of a big technology known as blockchain and that Providence Moment of Truth is about to come very handy cuz AI is about to make a lot of fake stuff there's already videos of me on the internet of me saying things in my voice that I didn't say so providance on the blockchain is going to actually become pretty powerful yeah I think AI overall though is far bigger than people realize yeah and so what do I think I think you'll have some early users that are going to get a lot of value out of it you're going to have 50 to 70% incumbents that are going to demonize it or demonize it cuz they can't make money out it or demonize it because they're scared of it yeah this one isn't going to be fatty like nfts this one is going to slow build like social media yeah yeah I'm in that very unique age range where I started High School where nobody had a phone I finished high school everybody had a flip phone started college maybe a few people had a smartphone and by the time I finished College everyone yeah makes sense yeah it's a funny group so in eight years went from phone personal phone wasn't a thing unless you were an adult to the superu the iPhone whatever you needed in your um but I want I want to ask about your point about blockchain are you pointing out blockchain and and deep fakes from the standpoint of blockchain can track how something the progress of something so we'll be able to verify something is accurate based off every video every video I make I'm going to put I'm going to make an nft a nonf funable token the way everyone knows nfts right now is a collectible and the way they know it right this second is a collectible that was like fatty yeah but nfts aren't beanie babies in individual projects at nft land are Beanie Babies nfts are stuffed animals they will be forever one of the most important use cases I think in the next decade of nfts is going to be using the blockchain to put your content on to say all the content that I make about me is here first then I'm putting it on the internet so anything that you see that you think is from me you better go see the providance because this is somebody manipulating what I'm saying we've lived in a 100 Years of believing every video that we've seen is true we're about to go just your 8year analogy let me use it now as a as a build we will go from everybody here sees any video they believe it's 100% true to an 8 to 10 Years everybody here seeing a video and not believing it's true yeah that is societally a it is it is until you say wait a minute or the blockchain and then truth and so I agree with you in the short term it's like who yeah but this is why I'm kind of uh very fascinated by the blockchain Yeah Yeah I've been pleasantly surprised there hasn't been a ton of deakes around the election yet I mean I assume we event going to get there but I guess maybe we're too far away from November but uh yeah I I'm I'm curious how you see the perception of how societal perception of of generative AI is going to change cuz I think we already saw the first bit of it with the Apple ad where even though it was ounting AI you know it was crushing art and I think people view AI as we don't want it to replace art so do you are you optimistic that people are going to put up a fight and save arts and not give into just well anybody can create any kind of content using no Ai and that's it no do you know that everyone thought a canvas piece of art was not art hundreds of years ago that if you did not do art on a actual building wall that that wasn't real art there was an incredible fight that art on canvas was fake art I one of my good strengths this history tells me the future this is my second cool H yeah okay and I and you can see how my brain works a little bit and this is when I see new things like this I'm like let me get educated it's not like I know all this you know I do the research right and then it becomes part of my life so I think it's I think this industry actually this is a good parallel to the overall industry and it's the answer to your question I believe one of the biggest shortcomings of our industry is that we like or not and sure the answer to your question is and yeah there will be incredible room for originally created Human Art yeah but there will be incredible room for generative art yeah and the consumer will accept both you know why cuz they're already consuming both they're already accepting both yeah the indust the world world is not the opinions of the artists that this EV yeah the opinion is of the 8 billion people and how they interact with the art yeah so to that point do you I mean when when something like let's just talk music with AI music is going to become even easier for anybody to figure out how to make do you see Society pushing in a way where someone who can play a violent at a high skill is going to get pushed out for somebody who can create whatever on their laptop on their phone using AI or do you still see a future in which both of those are going to be equally valued and that we're going to really fight hard to protect human made art I think both will happen what about house EDM music what about DJs yeah I mean everybody told us electron what about uh uh autotune yeah t pay [ __ ] had every hit song for three-year window uh I I'm very bullish on Ant I think to your point like I'm thinking about becoming a music artist I talk in the way that would work really well for music I'm very you know I'm good for interviews right like I it's how my brain works analogies Snippets headlines um I think I can be good at music one problem I can't sing for [ __ ] and I'm not musical I got that in common with you and me I can play mean saxophone can't sing a tune that's pretty cool so I got nothing yeah other than I think I can write Hooks and have bars and and I think I will use AI to actually make hit music I really believe that before I'm done yeah and so will some people say like what the [ __ ] [ __ ] Gary VZ now of course they will yeah I I could 93% will 7% will say like the same thing you know is aichi good some people think aichi is the best yeah other people think that he just took other people's [ __ ] so is Andy Warhol the best at the time was the worst now we think he's the best some people think he's the best some think and so I I really I'll go back to my and I think that and uh let's talk about technology I couldn't believe more in Social and the phone do I believe that now that we've had 15 years of it that a lot of people enjoy putting their phone in a safe for a week and not being on a phone I sure do it's pendulum swings yeah technology in technology out you know D D D D D D and so this you know look at Fashion yeah every 20 30 years are we supposed to wear tight jeans or loose jeans yeah you know like so that's I I think that's what's going to happen with music and entertainment yeah I mean I think we've seen it seen to an extent with social media I mean you know if you would have told me 10 years ago that by 2024 I would have pretty much given up sharing any part of my life on social which is a thing that a lot of people are starting to buy into I think you I would have said you're crazy but I think eventually also just grew tired of sharing our lives constantly I I live the life the whole time people are very confused when they I don't think people realize how I played it I've never shared a single thing about my personal life yeah I it makes so much sense to me why would I want to give up my privacy yeah there's nothing more valuable yeah what my relationships my family I'm one of the most prolific content producers of the last 15 years yeah with zero of it being about my personal life so I understand that's I saw that coming from a mile away yeah putting my children in my content what if they don't want it yeah putting my relationship so that the world didn't anybody see what they do to Brad and Angelina like why are you giving the world obviously not we're not all famous but if you're by the way when your life is small when 30 40 people your relatives and your friends are your world their judgment on your relationship is powerful yeah yeah uh so let's let's let's start to bring this a little back back yeah Mark let do uh have you when you talk with your clients and brands in general have you started to see Brands figure out where the line is on where they want to use gen one more time my friend have the brands your clients started to draw a line in terms of where the line is on gen so for example Dove Dove has said we'll use gen gen but we will never generate a human got it got it no we we think that our recommendation to our clients is don't jump out too fast yeah that would be like there was uh we had there was clients it's buried in history now that said they would never use influencers they only believe in real celebrities um no we've we've uh our conversations with clients my conversations with clients are very heavily predicated on um the following which is you don't need to make an official statement yet right we like this is very profound technology sure many of the Bill Gates said the web was a fad he's a smart man you don't a little you know you don't need to be out in front you know like you know like let's like let's take a beat uh and so that has been our recommendation and I think that's the right thing like it's early ready for this I'm on the record that's saying Dove at some point in its consumer brand Journey will make generative people okay because not that I believe that anyone at Unilever is a hypocrite or stupid or is wrong but in 27 years yeah when it's a different regime and generative AI human content is incredibly important yeah I don't think that Dove is going to want to give up market share very fair you know so like I'm sure it's and by the way I know that it's well intended it actually comes you know I think most things are well int like eighth place trophies were incredibly well intended but I think looking at history it's not going to be viewed as a positive thing for kid development yeah Dove talking about real Beauty that's a beautiful like it comes from such a good place yeah on the record I don't see any scenario that in 35 years they haven't done it cuz it'll be a competitive disadvantage to a business yeah I mean even even in instances where so I was talking to the CEO of um he was C of okrp and now he's part of brol thy and he said you know I have restaurant clients who they'll let us use gen for anything except the food 100% because they their chefs they only want to show things their chefs can actually make and even if they use gen to Perfection nobody made that burger let me let me take the Counterpoint yeah every single commercial that Burger King shows the Whopper looks nothing like the Whoppers I get at Burger King it's a good point uh yeah food styling is a thing no [ __ ] I would argue food styling and commercials yeah is more [ __ ] AI than AI yeah I haven't seen a [ __ ] Whopper in my life yeah that looks like the ones on TV yeah do you do you have a sense with brands that they even have their heads wrapped around gen AI that well because I was talking to Sir John hegerty earlier today and I asked him pretty much the same question h of you know are have you seen Brands draw the line and he and he goes well no I mean it's it's so early days that most of them I think he said can't [ __ ] wrap their head around it or don't I forget exactly what he said but you know he basically said they don't know what they're doing and someone as someone irresponsible for that as someone who came into this industry and has been in it now for 15 years I'm so glad that sir said that cuz I've always liked him a lot actually I always have uh uh he's a smart guy and he's right that's absolutely my take I said I think it earlier Madison Avenue versus Silicon Valley like it with all due respect and this is an incredible Community Tech deep technology knowledge is not what's happening here this is sales and marketing and so yeah no I don't think they have their heads wrapped around it and by the way there's a lot to get through with copyright and trademark law yeah this is probably one of the more conservative stances we've taken as an organization we want to really understand like where the content's coming from like because we have to indemnify our clients so I'm like [ __ ] like are you kidding me I'm not looking to battle Disney if they claim that the elephant that was made from this was inspired by the Dumbo IP yeah so we got a little ways to go I think he's right I think it's early I again especially after four glasses of Ros at can people like to pontificate about their knowledge about AI it's not H this is not the epicenter of AI this is an industry that will be affected by the epicenter which is the technology sector yeah you brought up algorithms earlier and know we've talked a lot about geni but with algorithms it's also a very good point because we've seen how quickly Society has fractured how content has fractured in terms of audience my Tik Tok feed is going to be drastically different than yours ESP different harriets and so we're losing a sense of community because we're we slowly growing into I'm fans of these people you're fans of these people and you have no idea who are I I would I would argue that that is a false Po in the society right now okay let's take it back pre- social media you chose to watch Fox and I chose to watch CNN you chose to read the New York Times and I chose to read po but the options were much fewer now there's a million different influencers and 72 may end up in my feed and you might have two of the same ones just cuz the options were few do you know what the average amount of channels people watched when they had 36 channels to choose from in Prime cable era in the 80s three the options were fewer yeah but I still didn't watch Food TV I watched ESPN and I watched when the Jets highlights were on and I turned off when the Broncos highlights were on I I think that this is a demonization of modern technology that is a misnomer of human behavior yeah the fragmentation has existed forever yeah people always read the books they want and read the newspapers and watch the TV and listen to the radio yes to your point absolutely on fewer options the misnomer is we didn't take advantage of those fewer options I'm not quite un I at that Point's not Landing for me cuz you know if back in say the '90s or ' 80s when you had fewer options and cable to use TV is first exploding we saw K you know amount of people who watch a program far higher than today so you went into the office correct you likely had a number of people correct who you could talk to about something and so what I'm saying is more it's fragmented so much that I could go in the office and there's no guarantee that any single person that that I'm a buyer on that I'm a buyer on I'm a full buy I'm a full buyer that but I would I would say the Nuance there is that um that the genre of it would be within the same realm meaning you may know of a hip-hop artist that's emerging that I don't know yeah but we may both like hip-hop yeah right and I would actually say the discoverability of that game is real but to your point the extreme fragmentation is well taken yeah and I'm a very big believer in that um I don't think it's focus groups of one yeah but we've definitely to your point gone to smaller groups of interests yeah but the and so I think we're going to find out what that all means yeah to your point we all watched Mash yeah now we all watch humor in 87 pieces of mash that add up to one Mash yeah and to your point that I think you're making is that has the potential to make us not be as connected yeah and I think that's real yeah uh I know I get excited when my wife shares a Tik Tok that I've already seen cuz it's like almost a shared experience of like oh I've already seen it I can laugh at this already yeah um where's I going to go from there so do you see do you see a Tipping Point in which at some point we are all driven back to maybe more communal yeah I think so I don't think but I don't think in the short term at all you're 36 yeah you know back to like guessing this I definitely don't know but if I if I had to bet the farm like Gary I'm sorry you have to bet yeah when you're 60 I think we're in the actually I think we're still in the very beginning of fragmentation at scale yeah yeah honestly I do think loneliness is a big concern of mine of fragmentation at scale yeah absolutely I believe that there is absolute early indicators to that but I also think that requires human accountability to be more multi-dimensional yeah like to be more selfless not selfish I have my interests but let me be curious and selfless and open to on my friends interest so that we connect it's it's an in this is a real I'm very fascinated by this combo I spend a lot of time thinking about this it's actually by the way why I think everyone has marketing wrong the idea that you're going to make a 30second commercial and you're going to pump it on television yeah and it's going to work is [ __ ] delusional in the truth of the world yeah final question as we're pretty much at time here is just you know with with uh streaming TV and the ability to really understand who that first is you're showing have you guys begun thinking about using AI to create God knows how many versions of that ad to show each person the way you're already doing with your vein volume model for social and everything yes we have but we do believe it is still a trademark and and copyright issue and we will not go full generative AI over production until there's more CL this goes back to why I think Dove is well intended but a little premature yeah it's early and we have a lot of things to figure out yeah cool cool