if you're trying to break into the tech space you need to show an uh an energy and enthusiasm around technology therefore you should be demonstrating some personal projects that you've been working on so that when you're speaking to potential uh managers you know you're able to say well look I'm trying to break in I'm really passionate I've done some qualifications right I've got a project that I'm doing here this is you know and you're able to show them some of the interesting stuff you've done hello everyone welcome to the cloud career mental show we have a really good episode today because we have a really special guest he's the director of a cloud recruitment agency called zentech talent and he's here to share some of the insights as to what you can do to get jobs in the cloud industry from a recruiter's point of view I'm very excited to have him on and I'm looking forward to the Insight is going to share today welcome Jesse Dylan how are you I'm very good thank you for me that's a great introduction I'm doing really well thanks no that's great um yeah I'd like you just for the listeners just to introduce yourself what does your recruitment company do and just just shed some light into that sure so just echoing what you said you know I work with businesses who are looking for infrastructure staff you know experience takes me back 14 years when there wasn't cloud and it was kind of on Prem and then obviously we've shifted now from from on Prem and and virtual machines into into the cloud so businesses ultimately who are looking for infrastructure staff which obviously then fits the cloud space AWS azour some gcp and um yeah that's that's what we do are you interested in getting your first Cloud job if you answered yes then I have a free guide just for you this free guide walks you through a proven step-by-step process to help you get that first Cloud job it walks you through the three simple steps you can take today to make yourself highly employable the link is in the description below so make sure you download it now if you're interested all right let's get back to the show awesome so let's let's dive into it uh you know you you must interview or talk to a lot of candidates who are breaking into the cloud what mistakes do you think uh either Junior Cloud Engineers or just most Cloud engineers make in their job search that's a great question I think it comes down to a mindset I think people in this Cloud space are sometimes can be misguided doing uh you know obviously kind of getting qualifications and then expecting to go into a role as a cloud engineer um I think you know the the reality is an entrance into Cloud tends to be in a first line support capacity from my experience Cloud Engineers Junior Cloud Engineers from the people that I've placed tend to have a couple of years of experience they've been doing perhaps some support work and then they're shifting into that cloud space so I think it's a mindset of understanding uh Cloud Engineers you know doing qualifications off the cuff doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go straight into a cloud engineer role uh ultimately what you what you will be doing is you know you want to get your foot in the door from a support perspective get your head around that and then opportunities will come to get into that Cloud space no I think that's great because one of the questions I get asked a lot is you know where are all the entry-level Cloud roles and I kind of tell people that the cloud industry almost by default by definition it's midlevel because you're dealing with a lot of infrastructure you're dealing with things that are critical to the business and if you if you mess up it could be quite serious but even apart from that you need to have knowledge of multiple disciplines like networking security not to mention like the cloud itself so I like what you're saying where it's like look you just need to get some technical experience some support experience and that gives you a bit of an advantage yeah when Cloud you know when we transitioned to cloud and there wasn't much Cloud experience in the marketplace what we were looking for from an entry perspective were Windows systems administrators that had Powershell experience specifically you know Powershell was a key thing and it's still a key thing now you know kind of um having those languages where you're able to to use for automation but that that used to be the entrance level for for cloud engineers so we would look for third line system ad administrators who wanted to get into cloud Who hadn't done any experience had had no experience but that was the entry level so if we look at it Cloud Engineers coming in they're not systems administrators right they they have some qualifications which ultimately means to get into you're getting into the support environment so you start at first line that's pretty much what it is yeah that's great so if if you're listening now you've been having some trouble breaking into Cloud industry you know it might be worth looking at first line support of you know either like on premises stuff um service desk and if you're already in like a service desk industry you're at a unique advantage to begin thinking about moving into the cloud if that's what you're into because ultimately it's all about what Hands-On skills you're bringing in what automation you know can you script in python or bash or Powershell you know you need to bring some attributes to the table here you can't just show up with a couple of certifications absolutely and I did some research and I'm sure your um listeners will do as well if you type in junior Cloud engineer online you know you what I found was not very much uh to be frank and and even when you are looking at those and you read the specs they're saying three years of experience right but then if you look then at first line roles there's a load of firstline roles and that's the entry that's the entry into cloud and I think sometimes it's misguided if if people just understood that from the beginning then they perhaps save a lot of time because they wouldn't necessarily be searching Cloud rolls they'll be saying okay great I've got some Cloud set if ation now I need to get a first line roll that is really good Insight so if so I guess we should think of cloud like a long-term game where you know if you've been searching for six months a year you know you haven't gotten anything it might be worth reframing that and looking that okay what are some first line roles I could get into you know get my foot in the door and then build up to to that absolutely and then the other thing is once you're into an organization the chances are they're going to be using the cloud and then you'll have an opportunity to build those relation ships internally um let your uh you know let your seniors know that you're you're targeting This Cloud space and they they will perhaps look at your trajectory and say right okay we can work with you over the next couple of years to get you into that space good Insight this is really good Insight because I don't think we we've heard this anywhere else before so no thanks for sharing that do you have any other mistakes you see Junior Cloud engineers make maybe even in like the job application process or or anything else around that not necessarily mistakes but I'd say what one the the key thing is when we're looking at support is uh if we put the tech experience to the side for a moment you know the softer skills of customer service is really important um and the you know confidence to to to get on the phone and ultimately also be client facing because from a first line support perspective or support perspective generally you're interacting with with customers you have to have the softer skills of being able to articulate yourself you know articulate yourself clearly um have phone mannerisms uh be able to deal with difficult customers you know so actually it's really important to know that it's not just about your Tech skills it's also about your softer skills and how that comes across which is probably more important because tech tech skills you could be talk but customer services you kind of have to have a little bit of flare and you've got to be able to you know kind of get across really well and and deal with difficult customers a lot of the time that are annoyed frustrated because something's gone wrong and you know so it's kind of understanding that as well as the TCH I think that's again another valid point and I really want people to take a note of that because from my experience a lot of my background before I got into like the tech uh Tech space was in sort of retail and customer service and I realized that that the training I received in these customer service roles really translated well in my cloud role in terms of you know how do you communicate with a customer when something goes wrong because a lot of the time if you're and Cloud support they're reaching out to you because something's gone wrong um people don't really reach out when everything is going really well so how do you communicate then and also devops and Cloud Again by definition it's you're always working with other people and other teams it might not be customers it might be the developers it might be the project manager it might be um someone else so you're always communicating with people and your ability to communicate is so important because that's the difference between you know being someone that people want to work with and being ineffective and even staying on that communication piece as well it really helps in your interviewing because a big part of what employers are looking for from what I've noticed is do you f fitting well with the team and that that comes across in your soft skills you know how do you communicate in the interview are you smiling are you able to talk about yourself and your experiences really well so I think that communication piece is like you say Jesse even probably even more important that you need the technical skills but that communication is what actually takes you to the next level absolutely and then the other thing i' would say um where I think uh people can can help themselves is just doing some projects at home so we know that um scripting is really important um you know po scripting or whether it's yaml or bash or or python you know there there's um I always push people back to uh the Raspberry Pi and say look you know if you're if you're trying to break into the tech space you need to show an uh an energy and enthusiasm around technology therefore you should be demonstrating some personal projects that you've been working on so that when you're speaking to potential uh managers or or hiring you know hiring managers you know you're able to say well look I'm trying to break in I'm really passionate I've done some qualifications right I've got a project that I'm doing here this is you know and you're able to show them some of the interesting stuff you've done but if but if I would if I would focus on anything I would be saying focusing on the the the kind of the scripting side of things because that's what's gonna that's what's going to make you stand out um because we we're going into a place where obviously efficiencies and automation really important um and if you're able to demonstrate that you you've got a a good command of you know pelf for example paral scripting that's going to make you stand out so it's just basic things like that and I I speak to a lot of people that will say yeah you know I'm going to do it but when I follow up or if I'm speaking to people they kind well I haven't got around to it yet yes and again not a surprisingly I wholeheartedly agree especially if you don't have any real world experience it's all about the projects and I like your idea of the Raspberry Pi because I actually had a Raspberry Pi when I was starting out I think they're like $30 or something really cheap you know you can SSH on create web service do projects and also for those interested I created a YouTube video called Nine high quality AWS projects you can do and that walks you through like from what I've seen in the industry some of the most common things Cloud Engineers do so for example setting up autoscaling for ec2 working with terraform you know doing projects with python uh get cicd so check that out if you want some ideas of some projects you can do in your spare time because the reality is employers want someone who can come in and help fix their problems and you need to be able to demonstrate that you've done something like that before or at least show that you have the initiative to learn things on your own and you can talk about projects you've done because a big part of that communication is your enthusiasm as well it's because if you can talk enthusiastically about this Raspberry Pi Project you did or this you know Autos scaling project you did they will be able to see that because every cloud engineer was a beginner once and so we know how to spot the people who are really passionate about it and you know if you don't have any projects then you can't really talk about anything in the interviews which put you to disadvantage I I was going to say the other thing is this is if if perhaps your looking to break into the field and you've done some qualifications and it's In This Cloud space and you got a bit of time maybe you might want to start having a look at something around the developer space because actually also getting breaking into technology uh you know there's two routes youve got the infrastructure you've got development and I think development you know there's a massive need for developers coming through and software uh businesses will look for a junior developers who actually might not have uh much experience but the entry level is probably slightly higher in terms of pay and also what they're going to be looking for is people that have projects so if you can demonstrate again you know if you wanted to break into Tech and maybe you're struggling from an infrastructure or from a cloud point of view then hey you you know the other option is the development space you can become a developer uh and and actually that's a really solid skill set too because like we know now it's you know infrastructure and devop development are coming together in this devop space yeah so it's all scripting you know exactly so I think it's really important to kind of understand it's tough to break into technology but you have to give yourself the best chance and don't give you you know don't maybe look at Only One Direction try and open it up to say okay well I'd like to get into infrastructure which means it's going to be a first line support role or at the same time I'm also training in order to perhaps become a developer and these are the languages that I'm working with and that skill set there if you're speaking to businesses they'll be like well great this guy's really interested to get in we could potentially have him on the first line we could potentially have him as a junior developer um but even with that skill set you might go in and then ultimately you can utilize it in the right cu the most important thing is just that foot in the door just however you can get it it's that and that's it's so funny when you're speaking it's just like um flagging up things in my head as well because I remember when I was first breaking into the industry I was applying for because I learned python as well um just in just in my general learning I was applying for like software developer roles Cloud roles just Linux administrator just whatever like I was just applying because I'm like okay I have these set of skills and like you were saying how can you just get get a foot in the door because once you're in then you can then you learn how the industry works and you navigate and I think this is actually a point for any software developers listening as well is that your skills are very valuable in the cloud space and I think a lot of the best you know Solutions Architects or Cloud Engineers I've seen they actually came from a software background because with almost everyone I've spoken to especially people who are looking to break into the cloud industry they always ask me ah do I need to learn programming I'm like yes yes you do yes absolutely yes you do um and that's usually the hardest part so I think if you just accept that you need to learn that then that that'll definitely put you put you in in right stad and yeah if you're from a software background there's a career for you in the cloud as well if you're interested if you want to learn more sort of systems design and how how all of that works that that works so Jesse I think I think you've given them you've given them more than enough to to get started on and I think even just taking actions on these things already put you ahead of the game and what what I like to say to people in terms of my messaging is that it's all about probabilities you know anyone who can say yeah I guarantee you a job in three months is lying to you all I can say is what we what we're trying to do here is give you the tips that just gives you that added probability of achieving your goal and just takes you a bit closer to it just gives you the edge um the next question I have for you is again you must prep a lot of cloud people looking to get jobs especially at the interview stage what advice would you give to Cloud Engineers on how they can prepare for their interviews or what they can do better there that's a great question and I think um actually the key to success in interviews is preparation right um you you really have to understand what the hiring manager looking for and be prepared to an extent sometimes you can have a little bit of control in that interview a lot of people go into interviews thinking well I don't know what's going to come up you know I'm just going to you know do my research on the company and that's it but the way I would work uh and the way I have worked with with candidates is yes you need a sentence a very quick sentence to tell the hiring manager that you know what the business does that's great but ultimately you You' really got to be I I would actually say go online and find some basic so if if we look at entry right we're we're talking about people trying to breake into to technology so it's going to be first line let's take it back to what it's actually going to be so you're going to get a firstline support role in which case you need to go online and and identify what those first line questions are going to be right and there's a whole load of stuff online that says these are the first these These are interviews that will come up from a first line perspective and you you need to know what those questions are you need to have rehearsed the answers so that when someone says to you what is this or what is the port number for this or what is you know how would you and you need to be able to kind of come up with it but you you you kind of have to to preempt the questions that are coming up and have looked at them rehearsed them so you're prepared for technical questions and there's a lot of that online so yeah that that that's I'd say yes you kind of youve got 30 seconds when you when an interview starts right your first impressions are so important and usually the first question that's asked of you is what do you know about us right so you have to be able to articulately with within 30 seconds be able to say this is what I know about your company you know are you happy with my understanding uh of what the company does right and then it goes into the tech space and from that Tech space you're kind of you're already prepared because you've gone through 50 questions right and you you you got your qualifications you kind of you know you're understanding technology but those questions the answers to those questions are so important you have to know them and you have to rehearse it yeah and in fact I'll take a step back I think you're assuming that a lot of people research the company I think you'd be surprised by how few people actually research the company that they're going to work for and you know I've I've I've helped prep a lot of people for interviews and I'd say there's two main aspects there's you know the technical stuff like okay you know what port number is this all of that but also where I see a lot of people fall down is also the non-technical question something as simple as oh tell me a bit about yourself you know a lot of people fall down there or or you know why would you like to work for us a lot of people fall down there and it goes in L with what you were saying is that hey you need to prepare as much as possible but also you need to have structured answers so you need to do research as to like you're saying what the company does and you know also how do you talk about that you know it's like oh I see you do a and c and I'm really passionate about ab and c and I want to use my skills to contribute to that or you know answering based on a job description so if if you see they're asking for certain things in their job description use those in your answers you know as as opposed to just talking generally so how do you tailor you could have sort of general answers but how do you tailor it to that specific industry or sorry that specific company or that specific role and I think that's that's a bit of an art that a lot of people aren't even aware of absolutely and also I'd go further and say look let's split the interview up in three parts you have the beginning which is the introduction you're right what do you know about us and also tell me a little bit about yourself that answer needs to be rehearsed it's like a presentation you don't just go and deliver a presentation you write it you rehearse it you show someone your present ation you deliver it a few times and then you go ahead and deliver a presentation and that's exactly the same as an interview so in the first instance if we break the interview up in three parts the first bit is what do you know about us tell me a little bit about you that needs to be that's your hook so you need to be able to be demonstrating in that what do you know you know tell me about you you need to talk about your projects your passion in this sector and your qualifications that you're bringing to the table right and it needs to be rehearsed you need to have kind of and you only want to be talking for maybe a minute Max maximum because you're not going to get you know if you're talking for too long people are not people are going to stop listening so you kind of have to have a short sharp to the point this is a little bit about me and that's your hook in the middle bit will go into the the text side of things and then actually the third bit which is at the end which is really important which is questions right an interview will always say what questions do you have for me and actually preparing those questions are so important because it shows your interest but also it's an opportunity for you to dig a little bit deeper ask some intelligent questions and and get them talking about the opportunity at that point you're always going to stay away from any you know any any kind of questions around benefits or ha it's nothing to do with that you never want to be asking what the working hours are you never want to ask anything about the the kind of semantics because that kind of stuff you can eye on out ultimately you want to be talking about right what kind of tickets am I going to be dealing with right what kind of customers are you working with um you know what's the what's the learning what's the potential in terms of how will I be you know what I mean like you want to kind of find find out about the role and dig a little bit deeper and it should always stay away from any benefits or working hours or anything like that even even in terms of hybrid because to be frank in the first job you got to take what's what's coming to you if you got to be in the office if you got to be in the office 5 days a week then you got to be in the office 5 days a week yeah all right if you got you got work nights you got to work nights oh anything that gets you got work night you got to just get in I'll be yeah again you're bringing off so much stuff that I've forgotten my first job in technology at all was in like it was in a support role for video conferencing thing and it was literally night shift 10: p.m. to 8:00 a.m. I did that for three months cuz yeah you just have to take what you got to take right and you sort of work your way up from there and I would argue go and find night shift roles because the chances are so many people don't want to do night shifts but you have to be the person that's able to put it in and say actually you know what I'm willing to do night shifts because I just want an in I just want an opportunity in so you might have to cut your cut your teeth for 12 months in the nights you frol but ultimately everyone's batting it away that's your opportunity in so you got to find the for example people are you know want to work from home it's like look if I need to be in the office for five days a week I'll do it you kind of got to do what's necessary in the first instance just to get yourself in the door yeah I mean I have a post coming out on LinkedIn soon where I'm talking about how you know remote work is the enemy of cloud beginners because if you're applying for jobs like in your area you're only competing with people who can get that location if you're applying for jobs remote you're basically competing with the world so so again it comes out to the probabilities how do you improve your chances and I really like to go back a bit to what you said about sort of the three stages in the interview so the intro which is about you and the company then the technical meat of it and then the questions at the end and a framework I teach in my program for those looking to you know interview is to think of your answers in bullet points so you have your two or three bullet points you're going to talk about so for example tell me a bit about yourself bullet point one this is why I got into Cloud bullet point two uh these are my qualifications and projects and bullet point 3 like you know I'm really excited to see how I can add my skills to your company and by having bullet points it helps you keep to keep your answers succinct and on point because something I've noticed is a lot of people waffle you know they they just keep talking and talking because they don't really have points but if you know okay I need to hit point a point B Point C or point a and point B that's it and you can you know stop and allow allow the interviewer to ask questions so in addition to that what I'd say is I have this wrap-up technique right so I always kind of say to my guys look after you've delivered your answer you want to be saying does that answer your question yeah is is there something more you know did that answer your question did you want me to elaborate on what I've just said because what that does is it tells them you finished and it gives them it asks the interviewer a question does that answer your question which is yes you're getting a confirmation of yes does that make sense if you're constantly doing that makes a lot of sense so if you're saying hey does that answer your question does that make sense did you want me to elaborate on what I've just said firstly you're wrapping your answer up secondly you're getting positive confirmation from the hiring manager that yes that does answer my question so as you go through this process you're getting lots of yeses also what what that does as well is that it actually shows the interviewer that you're confident in answering more because I feel like a lot of people they just want to like quickly answer the questions and like don't ask me anymore this is all I know but if you're like yeah let me know if you'd like me to elaborate it shows that you have more in you that you can bring out if they need and you're taking control of that because what you're doing is you've been asked a question you're answering then you're asking a question back hey does that answer your question is that what you're looking for because sometimes if if you get asked a technical question this is really important if you get asked a technical question and you don't wrap up they'll accept your answer and move on if you if you say Okay port number is that is that does that answer your question is that what you looking for you would say oh not not quite and actually he'll engage in a conversation with you and and most times especially at the entry level they're not looking for you to be perfect technically but they are looking for the communication the confidence and you know um the ability the aptitude to be able to pick up these things because you're going to learn right so if you know if you've got that those wrap-up techniques as well you know it it gives you a better chance because you're taking a little bit of control and you're just confirming with them is does that answer your question does that make sense did you want me to elaborate and that's really powerful yeah I think again I I completely agree I think this is the communication thing again back to that super important it's also the most neglected thing everyone wants to know oh do I learn kubernetes do I learn like nah just learn how to what you've done a learn how to do the basics really well get some projects on your built and then learn how to communicate that because if there are two candidates even if candidate a is better than candidate B technically if candidate B is a better Communicator then candidate B will get the job every single time so now don't forget to neglect that again just just so many gems uh so I I want to have one more question then you know we'll go into some some questions from the community so you know I think you've you've you've shared a lot of really valuable information here today if you had someone coming to you you know saying if you could summarize as maybe one or two pieces of advice you give to someone at the start of their Cloud Journey maybe they've done one or two certifications maybe they've done one or two projects and again it could be something you you've said before but what's the one piece of of of advice you'd look to give to someone at the start of their Journey looking to get their first job okay so uh that's a great question um and there there's a couple of things I'd say not necessary one so firstly is your process so let's talk about process of actually going to identify a job because I think sometimes that that could be missed by simply applying for a role online it's not enough there's a if you go on to jobsite now or CW jobs or whatever job board you'll see a 100 first line engineer roles by applying to those and waiting for someone to come back to you isn't enough you have to apply pick up the phone speak to the consultant build a relationship um and be front of mine because there are hundreds of people that are applying for that role and if you're not picking up the phone and speaking to a consultant and introducing yourself and making yourself known then the chances of them looking at your profile uh or even getting to you from the 100 or 200 applications that are that are in uh are are Slim So the first thing is the process of applying for a job isn't on an email it's actually picking up and trying to speak to the consultant just to introduce because when people call me um you know I'm listening into so many other things apart from the text the tech side of things but also at the same time we're you know Consultants are working on multiple jobs right so we're spinning many plates we got several jobs on um we're looking for the best candidates we're obviously having we've got time frames you know we've got to deliver within a particular time frame as well um so someone calling me and saying hey you know I've seen your job that's just brilliant uh I I I love the fact that people reach out to me most people don't surprisingly enough you know surprising enough most people just send an email and uh or send a send a CV and expect for a callback but you got to inter you got to interrupt that from the consultant perspective because when you know we're we're resourcing we're looking for candidates people calling in introducing themselves they stick out they're at top of mind and that's really important yes I think and and this is one of the the valuable insights I I'm happy you're able to share because you know as candidates or people in the cloud industry we don't actually know what the workflow is for the recruiter or the consultant you know all we know is I'm sending a job and that's it but yeah like you said like you're actually handling multiple job roles multiple candidates so it's like how do we sort of interrupt that and stay top of mind one of the things I always encourage is how do you again how do you make it easier for a recruiter to to to find your skills valuable and one of them I always says like make sure you're constantly posting about what you're doing on LinkedIn because again that's just the shortcut like oh I see this person has done like five posts about this interesting projects they must know what they what they're talking about as opposed to a candidate that maybe if you go on their profile there's nothing there but also I really like what you say about like yeah just just calling the recruiter um because yeah now you're top of mine and I think that's such an important one because that's not something any of us would have thought of really um in fact one of the candidates in the program who like recently just got a job like a month before he got the job he was saying that well I'm getting all these calls from recruiters and I don't know if they're just like farming my CV or anything and I'm like don't worry about that just talk to them like it doesn't matter if there's you know like potentially a fake job I mean I don't even know anything about that but I think the fact that you're even having conversation it means you're top of mind it means your your CV your resume is looking good you know that's that's always positive but I like that proactive approach of yeah just just apply and then give them a call so yeah I think that's really good Insight actually yeah um no that's great um yeah so I guess now we can move to a couple of questions from the community for so for those who don't know I on a cloud career mental program and people in the community I asked them that you know you've got Jesse coming on you know what questions would you have for him and the first question I received was again maybe you've answered this but it's always good to sort of summarize these points um one of the students said how can we make ourselves more appealing to recruiters when transitioning from a non-it background although we're constantly gaining new skills and working on projects to increase our knowledge there will always be another applicant with with relevant experience that we don't have so how do we compete it's a great question and I think like you said we've talked about some of the areas that they they need to stick stand out on I think you know some having something in the locker to say what you're doing uh as projects is massively key because that's going to make you stand out right focusing on the I say from a first line point of view as the scripting right you you should really be you should really be getting ahead round parall scripting as a as a as a as a minimum to show off the skill set um you you know or bash scripting those are Linux absolutely yeah so poell bash scripting so that that's definitely something that that you know you want to you want to be looking at so it's the projects it's the kind of additional work it's kind of show showing some projects online so having some kind of portfolio which is always going to it's always going to help and then in order to stick out you need to pick up the phone you need to pick up the phone and you need to build a relation have get into this get into the sales game you have to sell yourself you have to you have to be able to build those relationships because ultimately you know we when we put a short list of candidates together um it's not just about the tech stack it's more especially when we're looking at firstland Engineers it's more important that they have the softer the customer focus skills and you want someone who comes across really well who's you know got a good personality who's going to deal with customers and and and I would say you you you got to be front of mind for that because there's a lot of people want to do that so you got to be in the at the top of the queue which means pick up the phone and speak to the Consultants that are hiring first line engineers and there's a lot of them no that that's that's great advice thank you um the second and final question is how exactly do recruiters select resumés are there any AI techniques or keywords they look for When selecting these resumés is there any truth to this ATS thing we've we've heard so much about um I mean look there's there's a there's a number of ways um from an ATS point of view there will be like word searches you know um to to catch to catch particular phrases in CVS so that um you know you're speaking to relevant candidates so absolutely you want to make sure you've got the relevant skills in your CV so that people are able to search you so there's a Boolean search right so we'll type in okay first line for example right uh and this support active directory or you know you know DNS or or dhp whatever whatever kind of words we're looking for to filter to filter through the the candidate so having keywords on your profile is important and you got to work out though I think the key is this look what role are you applying for if if you've done a cloud qualification right and you're looking for a cloud job the chances are it's not going to come so you know by having AWS and all that it's great on your CV but you have to then put something else in there too for them to you kind of want to be putting in first line so that you're picked up so that at least you're picked up to say okay well I'm looking for you know I've done these qualifications I'm looking for my entry level now first line into uh into Tech right so you got to have those kind of key wordss I would work backwards and say go on to uh you know find some job specs that are first line have a look at what they're asking and then start looking around those Technologies and then put that in your CV and then that will bring you up but ultimately again if we go back to our point you can't simply rely on somebody to phone you right now in this market you have to be phoning not in this economy yeah you got to be phoning you got you've got to be picking up that phone and also I think I want to add as well it's like don't just throw in keywords because you want to rank up first I I think it's very important to have worked or done projects on the Technologies you're talking about and I think as well you want to put those words in context right you know because I see there's all these hacks of oh yeah you you write all these key words in like in the white so it doesn't appear and I've seen all sorts of things I think a lot of the times the truth wins out so I see when you're talking about the projects you've done these keywords would naturally come up like you know I use the VP and I created a DNS and I did autoscaling and I used ec2 and RDS to do a and c and I think just being able to write about your experience on your resume will naturally a lot of the time bring in those I mean I know with me I never really understood like the ATS system and the keyword I think by just knowing how to write a resume and actually having done projects that use those words um it just it just naturally brings in because I'm I'm always skeptical of hacks and stuff where you know if you if you write it this way it's like I don't know if they work and then some basic stuff like um you want to have because all the way atss work or or when you're doing a search on candidates uh although we have this remote space you know we you you still have to put a post code in so you need to have a I I would I would argue that you want to have a post code on your CV or a location to pick you up because if your CV's out there in public and there's no location then how do we how do we know where you are and and and the ATS w up so you need a post code that's a really good tip and I'm writing that down so would you recommend then let's say they're based in London would you recommend they write London or their post code because you know some people are quite privacy conscious I would say London uh for example tw4 right so you're like okay I've got the three you know three areas so that tells me I'm you know tw4 is West London for example you can have n N3 or you know SW whatever but it but that will pick up on the search to say okay I'm looking for candidates within a within a particular space within a particular radius of you know W1 for example and if you're tw4 that's going to come in with a 20 mile radius I'm going to pick you up but if you're not if you're not that's not coming up does that make sense it's not coming up yeah you're not going to be in that is that is really useful I mean I did not know that um so I think this this is going to help a lot of people um you know I think we might have to have a part two of this I think I think I'm going to reach out get some more questions cuz this has been really valuable um yeah so now I guess we wrap up if if someone wanted to get in touch with you or you know where would you like to point my listeners to yeah let let them know yeah I mean I'm my LinkedIn profile I'm active on LinkedIn so um feel free to reach out um if you Google Z and I'll I'll drop that in the in the uh description as well the LinkedIn profile if you if you Google zentech talent you you know our numbers will come up so youve got the office number there as well and um yeah happy to to speak to to Engineers I mean look I will I will say and I think I mentioned this to you ultimately we we kind of focus in on the mid to senior level in terms of cloud but obviously through that Journey we have taken Cloud Engineers but like I said my experience of taking Junior Cloud Engineers tends to be they they're still kind of senior but I've helped a lot of people transition into uh first line roles because I have relationships to businesses where they're looking for engineers to come in from a first line perspective and I've been able to help transition that um and get people involved because you know that there especially in certain sectors there's a massive need for for people to come in at an entry level so yeah but you can you know reach me I'm available I'm everywhere pretty much no that's great and I think I believe this applies to UK and us people as well absolutely um so yeah I I mentioned to you you know the the US is um our new market which we're quite excited about so um we're starting off in New York and uh taking our services out there working with some clients and we've already already got um got got one of two clients uh uh working with us which is fantastic and looking to to grow that base all awesome Jesse once again thanks so much for coming on and yeah we'll speak later yeah thank you so much I'll speak you soon awesome