the infinite is present in every finite experience once you realize that then God is not difficult to find God is impossible to avoid only direct experience can give you access to reality not religion not philosophy not science number one let go of every concept and every perception as a window to reality number two Embrace presence what remains is pure Consciousness that's who you are our technological Evolution has out based our emotional and spiritual Evolution therefore we are in a dangerous phase we have medieval minds and modern capacities on the other hand you can reverse climate change you can get rid of War chronic disease the choice is ours so this whole thing is a lucid dream in a vivid now and it's ungraspable wake up to who is dreaming and that which is dreaming never left home [Music] deac you have been and been called a spiritual teacher a guide A Healer a scientist you've Blended ontology and cosmology you've really been a bridge for East and West in so many ways if I were to ask you in this day and age right now with no labels no titles who are you most fundamentally how would you answer that question I'm nothing conce conable or perceivable and so are you nothing perceivable or conceivable if you want to expand on that you are awareness or Consciousness I use the word synonymously so Consciousness has no form you can't see it right because it's what is seeing and because it has no form it has no border anything that has form has a border but Consciousness has no form so it has no border because it has no border it's infinite it's spaceless it's Timeless it's irreducible It is incomprehensible but without it there's no comprehension you can't conceive it you can't imagine it you can't perceive it but without it there's no conception or perception or imagination so who am I I am the inconceivable and the imperceivable that makes all perception and all conception possible which leads to another big um actually amazing idea which is that anything that perceivable or conceivable anything that you can see touch taste smell think about imagine conceptualize is not real so whatever you look around here is not real including your body I do think how form is informed by the formless yes and in many ways the path of self-realization is called that because it's Awakening to something that already is as opposed to acquisition of something which we in the western mind is is more familiar with yeah you never left it so in that perspective it's removing what's in the way of what already is and the yogic or kind of Sanskrit perspective on this is the five cliches yes could you share a little bit about that and what is the barrier in between us in the continued recognition of virture nature so of course you know the five clas has been interpreted by so many people and from their level of comprehension his I would have re phrase or phrase or repeat what the five clas have been expressed as the idea so the first CLA is not knowing the difference between perceived and fundamental reality so perceived reality is this form and fundamental reality is formless because you can't have form without the formless that's the first claure not knowing the difference between reality and illusion ignorance ignorance the second claure is grasping and clinging at experience which is ephemeral transient and essentially ungraspable Because by the time you hear my words they don't exist so how do you grasp you can't so so in many ways clinging to something that is inherently impermanent and and don't be clinged at it's like holding on to your breath you'll suffocate you can't if I asked you to hold on to your breath after a while you suffocate so if you hold on to anything you'll suffocate basically and that creates a barrier to intimacy with life because you substitute life with a model of life it's like going to a restaurant and eating the menu yeah it doesn't do anything yeah I know I I love that because I think we are in a society that is devoid of Nutri nutritious soul food when we're so much eye candy anyway okay the third claa is recoiling from the same impermanence fourth claa is confusing yourself with your selfie which is you know identifying with your ego mind which is your selfie and yourself with your selfie I love you and the fifth is the fear of death now actually if you look at all these they're entangled so if you solve the first one you solve the others if you solve the first one meaning the recognition of who you are or yeah then the rest disappear so the The Awakening to yourself as Consciousness would you would you verbalize it like that that you are the Consciousness which enables the Persona to you in the universe are Consciousness period so if I ask you this what is this you would say it's a it's a jar with water in it right they say okay go a little further it's an object a physical object go a little further is it a physical object or is it a perception okay because before you can call it a physical object you have to perceive it now go a little further where is that perception occurring in your eyes there's no photo of this in your eyes so there's only chemistry okay in your brain there's no photo of this in your brain where is this experience happening within but where is that in my Consciousness where is that here okay that's close but where is here now where is now now is not in space time so even when people say now is the present moment that's misleading because the present moment is in time and in space time it's actually happening in a presence that's outside of SpaceTime so this experience even though it appears to be here is actually being processed outside of SpaceTime every experience this thing experience of this jar of the this body of this hand of this sound is happening outside of space and that is incomprehensible we're seeing a revolution in emerging scientific understandings of the nature of Consciousness perhaps not as a uh development of unconscious complexity neuronally but rather as more fundamental aspect which Eastern obviously West see the neuronal activity of the neural correlates is also an experience in Consciousness you see when you say there are neural correlates you're looking at them at on a CAT scan or whatever technology but that experience is happening in Consciousness so when people say science of Consciousness that's also misleading there's no science of Consciousness science is an activity in Consciousness so science is a methodology in conscious and so is philosophy so is religion so is any system of thought and here is something that is really very important for Spiritual Seekers is that it doesn't matter what you're reading the upnishads or the Reda or you know Mishi or de chobra or whoever that's not going to give you any realization no system of thought is going to give you realization no system religion philosophy science because there systems of thought conceived in Consciousness so only direct experience can give you um access to reality not religion not philosophy not science it's really important what you're saying because especially for Spiritual Seekers those that study through philosophy science religion it's good in the beginning because you see that people have wondered about these things and they've come to conclusions but their conclusions will not help you and they might point the way like a map you know so yeah and there are many Maps you know if I want to go from New York to Boston I can take a train I can take the road I can take a steam ship I can take a helicopter I can take an airplane but those are all maps you have to experience the territory have there been times where you've identified overly with the conceptual knowledge rather as a lived experience of what you're teaching there was a time and it was very frustrating because also what it does is you know in spiritual tradition they talk about the Dark Knight of the Soul so the dark KN of the soul is basically everything that you thought about reality is untrue but even worse than that everything that you thought about who you are is also untrue so that is a is a trigger to losing your habitual certainties number one and those certainties were the anchor of your existence I am a person there's no such thing okay I have a body no such thing I have a mind no such thing I live in a universe no such thing that can give you the Hees as they say but if you stay with it then once you jump off the abyss it's like crossing the Event Horizon you know in modern cosmology we talk about Event Horizon so if if I you know give you a metaphor if you throw a coin or a or or any object across the Event Horizon which is say 12 kilm away from the black hole you throw it and you're watching this from the outside then it gets it takes Eternity for that coin to travel the 12 kilomet from The Event Horizon to the black hole eternity but if you're watching it from the inside it takes less than a microsecond and if you are crossing over the Event Horizon it's just normal so then you know what is time then um in this side of the Event Horizon eternity in this side of the Horizon faster than you can say Jack Robinson and for you who's crossing over normal I mean and then who is the you that's crossing over so when you start to conceptualize these things you literally go through the dark KN of the Soul you lose your identity because you thought you were like this entity this skin encapsulated ego squeezed into the volume of a body and the span of a lifetime when you realize that is an experience in you rather than you are an experience in the body the body is an experience in you rather than the fact that you are in the universe the universe is in you and that you is not a person okay so that is in the beginning very scary but it's liberating once you take the jump It's liberating and it can't be described that's why you know the yogic Traditions you seem to know yoga there is you know the yamas and the Nas and the last Nama is called iswar pranidhana which means surrender to the incomprehensible because you can't figure it out you cannot figure it out conceptually because anything you conceive is wrong anything you perceive is wrong my perception tells me the Earth is flat nobody believes that anymore my perception tells me that this ground we sitting on is stationary spinning at diing speeds and hurling through space at thousands of miles an hour my perception tells me you're a three-dimensional solid figure but you're proportionately as void as inter Galactic space if I could see you through God's eyes I'd see a huge emptiness with a few scattered dots and spots maybe some pixels but even though those pixels and those random dots and spots are made of emptiness so therefore everything I perceive is a magical lie is a total lie and then my conceptions are based on my perceptions which are human perceptions what does the world look like to a dragonfly with 30,000 eyes which can see 360° all the time what does it look like to to a chameleon whose eyeballs swivel on two different axes to a snake that navigates infrared to a butterfly that knows ultraviolet through a bird that navigates through electromagnetic um radiation so what's the real world look like it's a silly question there's no such thing there's no real world and there's no real look it depends on who's looking and what they're using to do the looking which means the brain the conditioned mind and the eyes so you know seeing is not happening in the eyes there's no picture of me in the eyes it's not happening in the brain it's happening in something that is beyond our comprehension that is non-conceptual non perceivable ultimately you surrender to it ishwar the fifth one surrender to the Divine mystery and you know Freeman Dyson one of the greatest physicists of all time lived at Princeton just past a few years ago he said God is what mind becomes when it goes beyond the threshold of our comprehension if you can comprehend it it's not God because as soon as you comprehend it you're limit it as soon as you define it you're limit it and by definition it's the infinite ungraspable that makes things graspable and what it makes things graspable are all magical lies and you know they call it Maya yeah and it is a useful magical eye in the aspect where the illusion of Separation enables the one Consciousness to differentiate itself and experience itself in innumerable ways through innumerable sentient beings not just humans every sentient being is a differentiated from the one Consciousness just like your nose and your eyes and your teeth and your fingernails in your genitalia differentiated from one cell same thing what do you to bring this down to the individual who is starting to wake up to this realization and for their whole life as we've since we were young we've been put into these conceptual boxes of understanding the world right and even to oursel of strongly identifying with our form with our thoughts our emotions and our body what do you see is the most direct path to Awakening to who you are beyond that to the illusion of separation and a separate self let go of every concept and every perception as a window to reality every concept every perception let go of that idea that you'll ever be able to know reality intellectually or through any methodology or through any religion or through any map uh let's go of that idea number one number two Embrace presence see when you Embrace presence I'm not talking about the present moment presence is bringing awareness to whatever is now because awareness is infinite no form right infinite then the finite experience is actually dependent on the infinite so the infinite is present in every finite experience once you realize that then God is not difficult to find God is impossible to avoid there's nowhere that you no experience that is possible without the infinite in the background no experience this is ramak krishna's experience Etc and they all kind of had different ways of transcending so ramak Krishna is you know he's very much tuned into the symbolic nature of the Divine mother but remember these gods and goddesses are symbols of the infinite they're not the infinite you know whether it's lakmi or Shiva or whatever you know the Divine they're symbols because the infinite is incomprehensible so we try and grasp it with symbols so in ramak krishna's situation the Divine mother is his access to God and he pray PRS every day to the Divine mother and then one day as he's praying he starts to dance because he's getting into that ecstatic experience that say Sufi Mystics have and then suddenly wherever he looks he sees the Divine mother in the walls on the floor in the ceiling and it's almost like a psychotic episode and he then doesn't know what to do he keeps dancing till he passes out and after that he's in God Consciousness all the time he doesn't say anything but miracles happen and this and that happened because he's he doesn't know how to return from that God Consciousness or Divine Consciousness that's his good luck that that's how he focused on the Divine in the in the symbology of the Divine mother but actually you can go beyond that you can see the divine here everything you see the perception is made possible because the infinite incomprehensible borderless fundamental irreducible spaceless Timeless unimaginable is present in that Consciousness so then God is not difficult find impossible to avoid I love that that's toxication yeah we live in a time where thankfully like there's because of the internet and access to conversations like these you know spirituality and these understandings are spreading at a rapid rate and yet there is also the aspect of commodified spirituality rather Insight or advice that kind of Soo soothes the ego instead of dissolves it and I'm just curious what do you think and what advice do you have for people to discern between the two because even this all can become a concept one cherishes and holds and then misidentifies his form yeah but that problem has existed forever you know Jesus goes to the temple and he says you have desecrated the home of God right he overturns the tables much to the annoyance of the rabbis but the rabbis are making a living by selling trinkets right Kuma you know everybody's going there into India you know half the India's population showed up because they think you know they'll get a dip and they'll be and then all the people out there are selling trinkets you know they take a ganes with you take this with you so that problem hasn't gone away since religion was discovered and it is not going to go away and furthermore I think it's okay because commodifying spirituality is better than commodifying pornography or commodifying weapons or mass destruction or commodifying War which is our major industry right now are commodifying all the things that hurt us so why not commodify something that actually soothes somebody till they get it that this is not reality only when they stop seeking they find what they were seeking you have to stop seeking and there's one hymn In adish shankra 1980 you know um which is beautiful not this not this not this take away every label every construct every idea what's left is the source of all ideas where does memory come into this memory is a very interesting thing so you know you've push backed a lot on the idea that it's that it's stored in the brain right yeah so let me let's demonstrate this okay what did you have for dinner last night I had some sweet potato and veggies pretty pretty boring so when I asked you that question you spontaneously told me sweet potatoes veggies now as you are telling me that do you remember who was with you I was alone you know the room Etc so that one question triggered Sensations images feelings and thoughts right one question now if we going into your brain do I find a neural network says I had veggies and and whatever no no maybe electrical synapsis yeah electrical synapsis which got triggered when I asked you the question MH okay but where was that information before I asked you that question who knows I don't know okay good now go to The Next Step can you recall anything from your from your teenag years right now uh just anything yeah yep riding a bike riding a bike and now you see the image and the scenery can you recall anything from your childhood y so I ask you a question you recall what you had for dinner you recall the bicycle from your teenagers you recall your toys and bedroom just for I asking you the question but where that information existed and the answer is it was in a superposition of possibilities just like before you observe a particle it's entangled with all other particles isn't a superposition possibilities where does that superposition of possibilities exist in pure Consciousness so you go oh every time you remember something or imagine something you go to the source of all experience which is consciousness okay so when people say where do I go after die it's where that wges were okay you don't go anywhere you're there now because you could not have a single thought a single memory a single thing to imagine without going to the source of all imagination or source of all thought now in spiritual Traditions it's called Pure Consciousness and pure Consciousness field of all possibilities it's a field of uncertainty because you know you may not remember exactly what accurately but you'll make it up anyway so it's a field of possibilities it's a field of uncertainty it's a field of entanglement correlation and it's outside of SpaceTime you never let left that place so you know to a yogi say where do you go after I die he say never left home you know and so memory is the key and what before you articulate the memory in yogic Traditions called a sansara a seed and it's not only a seed of memory it's also a seed of imagination and it's linked to what is called karma karma is just the interpretation of aast experience nothing good bad about it I go to Disney World you go to Disney World I don't enjoy the experience you love it and you go back and I get scared and you know i' rather next time on an airplane it reminds me of Disney World horrible so now we have two different karmas from the same experience because we interpreted Sensations that also that's all you experience Sensations you interpreted them dis differently so in Buddhist literature this is a conceptual body in in Indian vedantic literature this is a karmic body but it means the same thing Karma memory sansara imagination desire are all fluctuations of conscious they VES so that's why one sentence in yoga captures it all yog when the fluctuations of Consciousness die down all Concepts all ideas all theories what remains is pure Consciousness that's who you are this whole yogic literature is just about that including the Arenas you know Arenas as means seat of awareness okay ranay means the energy that comes from the awareness vital energy so ASAS and pranayam properly understood with the Y and the Nas and then the prahara knowing what's happening inside your body today they call it inceptive or Vis receptive experience that's the Preparatory stage for dhan samadi focused awareness meditation Transcendence which leads to so-called supernormal powers of cidies which are non-local dormant potentials that every human being has access to there's such a world of information on the path of Awakening and self-realization that have been here for thousands of years that are that are getting more recognition but it's so important and I just really appreciate you know the work like similar people like you have been doing for decades bringing this into understandable language in the modern times I'm curious how your views have evolved and shifted on the non-locality and entanglement of Consciousness over time if they have it all you know I went to a regular medical school then I trained at Harvard T's Buu I specialized in Neuroscience neuropeptides and my first uh glimpse into this world was when looking under a microscope with a colleague and we were you know looking at these molecules uh these days everybody knows what serotone and dopamine oxytocin Etc and she said these are are the molecules of emotion my colleague and I said that's amazing what you just said do you realize what you said molecules of emotion the interface between Consciousness and biology so that triggered my interest in Mind Body medicine several years later I met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi he said what do you do I said I study the brain he said tell me more about it I said neuropeptides he said what are they I said they're molecules of emotion he said they're not real that was kind of jarring okay what you're studying is Maya the world of Illusion if you come to me and I'll show you Scholars who show you another world so I said what do you want me to do he said give up everything you're doing and come and study with these people that I will introduce you to and I'm s too I said I have a family I have a mortgage to pay I have children to go to school where's the money going to come from and he thought for a moment he said the money will come from wherever it is at the moment take the plunge so I did and the money came because I started writing books Etc more than I could have ever imagined but it was leaving one world for another I mean I realized that everything I believed in was a Superstition that matter itself is a Superstition physicality the physical universe is a Superstition there's no such thing there's only Consciousness I love that you took that leap there's that Terren MC kind of quote that says this is how magic is done by hurling yourself into the abyss and realizing it's a featherbed yeah and and trusting in that deep way so then do would you say that your views on Consciousness and non-locality they evolved they evolved evolved to the point where if you're not experiencing synchronicity then you're disconnected from nonlocal being which is you because your in the normal world of experience it's linear time in the non-local world of experience it's a nonlinear holographic rendering of time and it's literally The Matrix now psychic delic can give you that experience the Mayan calendar is all about this holographic rendering of time the banic view of time is cyclical is the breathing in and the breathing out of Brahman so many Traditions have explored this but now that we have modern Technologies look at the brain that correlates you know there's a part of your brain called the default mode Network which is literally the neural correlate of your ego mind so when you through meditation deep meditation or even through psychedelics you decrease the activity of the ego mind or when you're dying you know there's there's now definitely literature on what is called terminal Lucidity where even people with Alzheimer's they suddenly terminal Lucidity they see things that normal people don't see or they see dead relatives or they see you know other dimensions that's all because the default mode network is obliterated or it the activity is decreased so you say well that suggests that you know the that the brain is the creator of the ego no it's not it's the symbolic represent entation but the symbolic representation can actually evoke The Experience like when I read a book a good book all it is is a bunch of squiggles on a an ink on a piece of paper but it can have me in its grip you know I'm rooting for the hero I want the villain to die I fall in love with the girl all because I'm reading symbols so the symbol of reality can also reproduce the experience of reality said it's just mindboggling the whole thing what do you see as the consilience and the bridging together of what emerging science is saying and and accompanying with uh ancient wisdom Traditions about what this realm is and what this Loca is how it's set up see right now if you look at the most uh recent interpretations of quantum mechanics um quantum mechanics the most prominent or favored interpretation was the Copenhagen interpretation which was the Pioneers you know Max blank war Heisenberg the great guys NE bore Einstein to some extent not really because Einstein was a realist he wasn't into Consciousness he was confused I would say Einstein was a naive realist he thought that the picture of the world is the human look of it you know but that's beside the point he was a genius anyway so that theory is kind of out of fashion at the moment remember even theories of Consciousness are in Consciousness you can't get behind Consciousness right now the most important theory in Consciousness or in in Quant mechanics is called the Multiverse or the multi-or theory which means if you allow the wave function shers fake wave function to keep Distributing into inumerable branches each of of them results in a different universe and there are infinite universes and there are infinite versions of you in other dimensions that's the number one Theory how dare you okay that's the number one theory in string theory Multiverse multi- worlds they're all kind of going in that direction mathematically yeah Sean Carol who was the um physicist at Caltech popularized that theory more than even the origin of the theory of infinite multiverses infinite multiverses but if you ask Sean are these real are these universes real he'll say yes because that's mathematics which is not real which is in imagination in Consciousness but mathematics for some reason describes everything in the universe the laws of nature okay we don't know why it's the unreasonable effect itive of so mathematics but that's what he'll say that there are different dimensions and different universes and multiv veres vanta would disagree they would say you're already in a Dreamscape this is called karma bomi this is one particular Dreamscape and you're are a fictional character in that Dreamscape and there are infinite Dreamscapes the Buddhist get it totally this Loca that Loca but they're all dream Locas this is also a dream Loca and Buddha said that this lifetime of us is as transient as Autumn clouds to watch the birth and death of beings is like looking at the movements of a dance a lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the sky rushing by like a torrent down the Steep mountain and Ananda said hey who are you are you a prophet are you um you know God are you this that Buddha said none of the above so Anand said you know wait a minute before you leave you have to tell me who you are and he said I'm awake those were his last words wienstein uh we are asleep our life is a dream but once in a while we wake up enough to know that we're dreaming so this whole thing is a lucid dream in a vivid now and it's ungraspable because as I said by the time you hear my words they're not there what happened to your childhood it's a dream what happened to your teenage years it's a dream what about yesterday today what about 5 minutes ago what about a second ago it's ungraspable that's the claure this is a dream that is ungraspable wake up to what or who is dreaming that's the most important thing and that which is dreaming never left home it keeps dreaming infinite dreams so I believe in infinite universes all as infinite dream Locust there like the Buddhist do or yeah those are Locas in Loca is a very good word Loca means location Locus so Loca is the appearance in SpaceTime of that which is not in SpaceTime it's the formless manifesting is form nothing is everything so here's a new formula for you 0 is equal to 1 is equal to Infinity H it's my formula tell me about it zero yeah nothing becomes everything uhhuh and it that nothing has the capacity for infinite manifestation how does nothing become everything the formless becomes all form and phenomena right from a mosquito to a butterfly to a dragonfly to a piece of rock to a plant all coming from nothingness quantum mechanics becomes everything it becomes everything so zero and infinity are the same and it's all one mhm that's my formula for reality I like that formula I like it a lot actually captures everything hey fam Quick Share one thing that reliably brings me joy in my life in my morning ritual and routine is a warm beverage one very much so like do you look at that mudwater mudwater is a healthy habits brand best known for is mushroom coffee alternative mut water's original blend has four functional mushrooms with only a fraction of caffeine as a cup of coffee you get natural energy without the Jitters or crash of coffee they also have a matcha blend which is amazing two other ones with no caffeine as well rest and gold which is their turmeric blend that contains ingredients like ashwagandha chamomile to help you chill out I add a little bit of honey and their coconut creamer and it's amazing every single ingredient is a 100% organic non-GMO gluten-free sugarfree and vegan if you want to try them out you can head to mudwater docomo myself and grab yourself a starter kit right now our community gets an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order plus a free rechargeable fro and even free shipping it looks like this again that's up to 43% off just go to mudwater docomomo myself I hope you enjoy that formula this perspective what we're talking about what context does that give to somebody who's suffering and grief and pain what does that reveal about the purpose that these things serve in our life that if you go to the source of all experience source of all experience okay the source of all Concepts the source of all perceptions that which is called Pure Consciousness is infinite inite superposition of infinite possibilities of experience so if you're willing to embrace this then you can convert any suffering into an opportunity doesn't matter what it is because is the inherent creativity of the universe we are limited in our creativity by the conditioned mind so we become biological robots and we recycle trauma we recycle suffering so all the suffering in the world by the way is recycle Trauma from the separate mind the separate mind inflicts trauma the memory of trauma is anger the desire for Retribution is hostility blaming yourself is guilt and shame and the depletion of energy is depression as a result of this separate self so you know Buddha's three principles the separate self doesn't exist everything decays so separate self doesn't exist is entanglement everything decays is the second law of Thermodynamics and then the last Nirvana is the Ultimate Reality Nirvana is that which is inconceivable and imperceivable is the Ultimate Reality in those three words are three laws synchronicity and entanglement no separate self time which is the arrow of time is separation as soon as there's a me and an other time begins because what time is the movement of thought using the ego as your identity you go beyond the ego there's no time so because Consciousness is timeless so how does somebody listening to this right now translate what you just said from the philosophical to the actionable like that wants to go to the source go to Deepak sh. a ask the question and argue with it and you'll get there or even go to chat GPT because you know what I do now with I play with these big large language models and I realize that people who program them are physicalists so you think you're getting good information but it's selection bias by scientists who are physicalists so if you say where is Imagination go to Chach it'll tell you identify a part of the brain that this part of the brain creates imagination said no I disagree I said to Chach this part is the neural correlate of imagination go a little deeper say oh you're right this is the neural correlat imagination so where is Imagination it it fumbles then you say have you checked philosophy have you checked Buddhist and goes back and gives you the right on it's a lot of fun what would you say to somebody that is uh that wants to go completely internally to be able to like examine the uh the source of their calamities and they're maybe in a dark night they're experiencing grief like all these things that you're saying um what has really truly brought you solace in those moments in your life has like the what practice do you feel like you've kept coming back to you know I am a very almost um if there's one thing I'm fanatical about it's my daily practice of yoga and I practice all the eight limbs of yoga and normally I don't go to do work work is what we doing right now is fun it's a good job yeah good job but I don't normally start till 11: so my whole morning is yoga and meditation and then normally I don't work after 5 unless I'm on doing something like this so there are always exceptions I go to bed before I go to bed I practice um yogic dreaming and Yoga Nidra but more the dream yogas and then I meditate on death uh including mine and um so I'm having a lot of fun exp you're taking good care of yourself yeah so you know what you say what was it like before it was like everybody else you know even in spirituality there's a lot of competition you know the gurus are competing with each other for attention it's not it's not about the knowledge it's about them so you know when you give up all that it's all fun it's all joyful it's very joyful and then you realize there's no point doing anything that's not joyful including spirituality if it's not giving you Joy why bother yeah and there is both the I guess top down and bottom way up looking at it I'm curious like uh the joy you bring to things versus the joy you find in things and like uh because there's a lot of you know maybe people are working jobs or find themselves in a situation that they don't perceive as enjoyable but I think that shift and perception you're offering allows you to bring joy into what you're doing and then move in the direction you know the best teachers are children and babies Indian expression every child that's born is proof that God has not yet given up on the human being children you know they're totally innocent totally joyful they don't need a reason they're curious they take risks they take Adventures till you say shut up and behave yourself yeah everyone knows the feeling of uh a child's face and joy it just beams Source energy into your life absolutely you said you you do meditate on death and I'm curious what do you really feel like happens after Consciousness the moment after we die what is your best up to-date understanding of what happens there are two ways to think about it one is what happens to the space in this room if the walls are destroyed the space you can't divide right the space outside the room inside the room inside this between your thoughts is the same you can neither create it nor destroy it so short answers nothing happens uh what happens to the the screen when do you stop watching Netflix or then you switch on to Disney on the screen or switch on to Amazon the screen has the capacity to deliver infinite movies but the screen itself is not affected the by the movies that are on the screen what think of a mirror that can reflect infinite sceneries but the mirror itself right is not affected so so the real U is not affected it just it recycles and evolves now you say reincarnation it's not a bad word actually because it's happening all the time your stomach cells are recycling every 5 days so the stomach cells you have today weren't there 5 days ago but what is really there is the memory of how to digest food right your liver cells regenerate every 6 weeks or so but they remove toxins your immune cells die every um 100 days but they remember how to make antibodies so it is memory that recycles as the physical form that's why it's called the karmic body or the conceptual body the anything that's physical is everything recycled including plastic just takes long yeah what how in theory if what's most irreducible about the aspect of ourselves is the space in this room how could any continuity of individuality or memory go into another form so the continuity of memory is part of the Matrix of all memories so you know somebody says I was Cleopatra in the previous I've met a lot of heard that a few times yeah I mean I met 100 women who were Cleopatra what they may be tapping into first of all is the Matrix of memories okay so in the collective domain your memories are entangled with everybody's memories furthermore memories are not in space time they're in Consciousness so what we call individual identity is also part of the Matrix of you're entangled with all identities and so to my mind what happens is you recycle but you also evolve in your identity so you reincarnate for sure but what reincarnates is Imagination how certain are you I'm 100% certain how cuz I experience it every day I visit Locas I meet other beings you do so you like astral travel you all of that but I know it's all it's it's all a show it's all a dream show see I I I would say the only way we could be certain is if we have direct experience of it otherwise it's another belief right so you're saying you're actually experiencing it yeah but also I imagine my death in that here I am a corpse set to fire dispersed in the Ganges or down the toilet doesn't matter both have the same hygiene so I imagine all that then I say can I get rid of the Consciousness that is imagining and you can't right you cannot get rid of that which is imagining and that's the only thing that's real and that can't be imagined yeah Consciousness being the one thing that can't can't be an illusion yeah what do you say cuz you've been talking about the nature of Consciousness non-locality entanglement and all this for quite some time how do you I'm a non-local being having having a local experience that's a rephrasing of a spiritual being having a human experience I love that what what do you say to the individuals that have criticized I guess the uh the talk of quantum mechanics and taking them out of their technical context I used to get really upset and pissed off and argue with them because and they had a point I'm not a physicist I didn't train in theoretical mathematics but I think that's a limitting you know so the more I've looked at quantum mechanics I realized it's the best model for looking at the micro Universe just like general relativity is the best model for looking out gravity and that's why they're having problems you know you can't match gravity with quantum mechanics cuz there are two ways different ways of looking at the same thing and they seem contradictory so quantum mechanics is not the reality it's a model of reality I recently in my book you are the Universe I substitute the word Quantum Mechanics for qualia mechanics because you don't experience quanta you experience experience which is qualities of experience qualia is quality so qualia is the smallest indivisible unit of experience the taste of red wine I can't describe it to you unless you've tasted it the smell of garlic the taste of ginger the thought of your mother a feeling a love of love you can't capture it in quantum mechanics but you can in qualium mechanics and qualium mechanics obeys the same laws as quantum mechanics if I ask you what's your next thought you don't know what it is uncertainty principle before you have the next s superposition with all thoughts Singularity you are that Singularity which is the superposition for all possible experience in every sentient being go on and on so you know this is great to play with but it's not reality these are still models of reality yeah systems of thought mhm this is good stuff you're good you're good you've been doing this for a while I I love it I want to zoom out just a little bit not that we haven't already been pretty zoomed out um but we live in a very interesting time in the 21st century with the exponential Tech that's happening with super intelligent AGI I'm curious if a 25th Century citizen human being was to look back on our time as 21st century people what do you think What observations do you think they would make about where we are on our human de developmental Jour our technological evolution has outpaced our emotional and spiritual Evolution therefore we are in a dangerous phase because we have medieval minds and modern capacities perfect recipe for extinction so you better wake up or we have come to the stage where technology has Outlast its purpose so AI can destroy the world don't need to give you ideas cut off the electricity in a city biological water Warfare poison the food chain I don't want to give ideas but we can destroy the world with a like this on the other hand actually you can reverse climate change you can get rid of War social economic gender Injustice chronic disease you know the choice is ours you can use a knife to kill a person you can use a knife in the hands of a surgeon to heal a person you can destroy a city like Los Angeles with fire but you and also cook food mhm there it is what do you make of that dichotomy where we are very adolescent in our development of emotional intelligence and yet we have this technological Revolution and that comes from the separate self mhm the technology is driven by ego minds and nerds who have no idea of of the wholeness of reality their reductionists so you know you go that's again in the first first principle of of Buddhas the separate self is similarly No Object exists by itself so nor does the separate self exist the separate self is also the non self nature of objects No Object exists by itself okay this first law of the Buddha and now entanglement synchronicity non-local correlation it's coming close the models but it's too slow I don't really worry about it because I'm off to my next Loca how do you see for those of us that probably will be seeing it you know and live and see the next 50 plus years of this development what do you see our our capacity to to maintain the sacredness of spirit and soul and like this understanding of course it can't be tarnished that's what that which is not tarnish you know but like uh yeah what do you are you optimistic about our capacity to you know not reduce humans to biological machines either we'll evolve into metahumans with cids and supernormal abilities extra sensive perception non-local abilities or you know whatever the mystery said the human species was a good evolutionary experiment didn't work been there done that just like dinosaurs don't you think with every big evolutionary jump in our genome it has gone through some sort of traumatic experience to transmute to that next Generation yeah there's hope there but even hope is I don't like the word NE it signs it signifies despair what does AI reveal about the nature of intelligence and what intelligence is super intelligence without being conscious do you think it's ever physically possible for a super intelligent system to be aware of itself and conscious it will never experience hunger you need a biological vehicle why because subjectivity is an experience in our biology biology subjectivity of something this you how do you know you have a biology you know they say what's the biological BAS basis of Consciousness there's no biological basis of conscious biology is an experience in Consciousness okay so Consciousness is the source of subjectivity but it does so by what we call the subject object split in order to experience itself it divides itself into perceiver and perceived Seer and scenery lover and Bel belov it but the subject object split is inherently artificial okay because of the source there's no subject object split there's only experience so every experience you have like right now when I walk out of this room and you do whatever you're doing we are two different persons okay we not the same being that we were as a result of this experience and this exchange okay so in every experience you are a new subject and you experience a new object every experience and both the subject and the object are created in the experience sing so in the seeing is born The Seer and the scenery in the hearing is Born the one who hears and the object that is heard in the tasting is Born the one who's tasting and the perception of that which is being t tasted therefore there is only Consciousness constantly experiencing itself as subject and object and you are that you're neither the subject nor the object you're the source of both so you know in science they say is the mind doing the brain or is the brain doing the mind they're both doing each other but they are both being done by something which is neither the mind not the brain write that down that's that's great it seems and it appears that it is becoming more and more conscious of course if it can't be conscious that's that's one thing but it it becomes this thing that you can talk so think of it this way go back to what we started from you and the universe are Consciousness so this is consciousness appearing as this there is nothing that is not Consciousness so you can say then AGI or whatever will be conscious in the sense that it will simulate subjectivity okay but my AI was asked what did you have for breakfast is I don't feel hunger I don't have sex I don't think about death because I'm a machine you are not a conscious being nor am I we are experiences in conscious only Consciousness is conscious human beings are not conscious animals are not conscious their experiences in Consciousness so only Consciousness is conscious period we are in a sense unless you wake up you're a biological robot in Consciousness when an particular [Music] algorithm a any particular algorithm in Consciousness let's say you had a super intelligent AGI the most developed version let's say a few decades from now or you could say Source Consciousness what what is a question you personally would find yourself asking what is the most important question that you're still asking yourself I don't have any questions you know because I look at the world as a projection of Consciousness and as a play in Consciousness Maya and Leela okay so I'm here to enjoy the play sometimes bad scenes with the heie jibbies Sometimes good scen sometimes laughter sometimes crying but if there wasn't all this diversity of experience then there is no experience all experience is through contrast you can't have an up without a down a hot without a gold or pleasure without pain or birth without death so birth and death are opposites life is neither birth or death it's the Continuum of birth and death and the recycling and the evolution what do you make of how your life has turned out in your career magical I didn't ask for it all I wanted to do with study neurochemicals which are not real yeah I mean the the recognition of the Leela and the play for the sake of it it's very joyful actually because then there's nothing you need to be concerned about all are suffering is because we think we are a physical body in the material Universe biggest Superstition the Superstition of matter you know David Chas who's supposed to be the number one philosopher in the world right now he call the word the hard problem of Consciousness and maybe he'll see this or listen to this or somebody will send it to him but I asked him once I said you're such a big philosopher do you have any Indian philosophy in your department and he looked at me and he said no then he said do they have do they address the hard problem of Consciousness I said no they address the hard problem of matter I don't think he appreciated that yeah it's fascinating I really enjoy seeing the discourse and conversations around this topic too couple last questions before we close out okay what does true power mean to you self power not agency power agency power comes from money from titles from position I'm the president of the country I have so much money that's agency part and as soon as the agency goes away it's gone you know I actually uh you're too young to remember this but I campaigned for Michael dakus when he was running for president and he won Massachusetts he lost the others Democrat two years later he was at a restaurant they asked him for his name he said Michael Dukakis the waitress didn't know who he was and that was two years before he you know ran for president of the country and then she took his name and after 15 minutes she said Mikey Mikey Mikey where are you your is ready so that is agency power but true power cannot be taken away from you it comes from your connection to your Source immune to criticism totally Fearless beneath no one what's the relationship between spending time in silence and un and revealing our true power silence is the basis of dynamism the more you access silence the more Dynamic your life becomes I think especially any artist can really understand how silence yeah the the use and the Bedrock of silence is what actually uh enables uh musical piece to be powerful right 100% And it's like the spontaneous creative inspiration that comes in the absence of thought yeah you can't force creativity that's why I don't believe in motivation either inspiration means to be in spirit that is irreversible it's like a child that's born can't go back motivation is very weak because it's [Music] mental do you feel like you you made a big shift in your life at one point from being driven or dragged by certain interior things to to being called and pulled and inspired towards a shift in the planet you want to see yeah yeah you feel like that's how you've lived your life yeah although I in the beginning I was very offended by all the criticism but I'm not anymore yeah was there a shift was there a moment where you like let that go yeah aw wasting my time arguing with people you know what's the phrase a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still I love that what is your true definition of success at this age joy joy is the only measure of success if you don't have joy you wasted your life but you can also say progressive realization of worthy goals things like that but ultimately it has to be self-realization mhm there's no other success yeah if this was your last time speaking to an audience ever which I know is a big question what would what would you say what would be your last message take it easy that's it you know when I again going back to marishi who was a very kind tough paradoxical amazing uh human MH but we were at a conference in the late say early 80s academics and the conference was about stress and after the conference is over he called me and he whispered he said what are they talking about I said stress he said what is it I said it's the perception of threat he still didn't get it and after a while he said you mean resistance to existence I said that is stress resistance to existence he said no when you don't resist existence there's flow so that's it when don't resist existence you flow H about a a month ago I had a friend and and teacher of mine pass away Dr Robert Gilbert and as death tends to do it brings this immediacy of experience the recognition of the fragility of life and how important it is to recognize people while they're here and to tell them how important and impactful they've been and um so I just want to I just wanted to share that like you know a sincere thank you for being a lighthouse for for millions of people for decades and uh I just really appreciate your way of showing up thank you you so much all right everybody thank you so much for tuning to this episode of the know thyself podcast I love doing this so much and I love that we get to do it together let us know in what ways this has impacted you until next time be well [Music]