[Music] this is everything happens I'm Kate bowler I lived a pretty shiny life but lately not so much on one level everything is perfect I married by highschool sweetheart I'm the mom of an amazing little boy I have my dream job as a professor at Duke Divinity School where I am a historian of North American religion okay maybe not everyone's dream but it was my dream perfect right except that life has been hard at 35 I was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer there was no history of cancer in my family and then poof there I was trying not to die I was watching my son learn to walk and trying to keep him away from the toxic chemotherapy bag attached to my waist this podcast is about those times when you realize that your life does not look great on Instagram it's about trying to figure out how to be a human being in a world that loves you more when you are shiny and whole and what you learn when you aren't [Music] so I know this may sound difficult or depressing and you're thinking please let me get away from this now but hold on in this series I have conversations with some wonderful and sometimes hilarious guests who've made it through their own terrible times and who have interesting and surprising and even funny things to tell us about how to make it through the dark I've learned a lot on my own journey and I'm still learning in part through these conversations and one quality I've come to really appreciate during this time is frankness another is openness the willingness to meet other people's troubles head-on my guest today Nadya bull's Weber is famous for both she doesn't mince words when dealing with life's hard stuff Nadya bull's Weber is a New York Times bestselling author of books including past ryx and accidental scenes she's a speaker and a mom Church founder CrossFit athlete yoga enthusiast a comedian and will definitely get to that later she's also very famous for her cool tattoos and her foul language which I find endearing she's a minister but she doesn't just preach to the bright shiny well-dressed people instead she seeks out I guess everyone else Nadya is annoyingly cool for being a Lutheran pastor a tradition we should all equate with casseroles and Swedish people in the Midwest Nadya I'm so grateful you could make time for this today oh thanks so much so I have to admit that you're the kind of person that I always want to tell all of my horrible problems to be not the fun secrets like the genuinely awful stuff oh that might be the nicest thing anyone's ever said is that like a skill you've nurtured over the years well no I just think I'm such an obviously horrible person that people are like boy that bar is pretty low you know so I have a bad could my stuff be might as well just fess up well it's it's also like you know I take people's private confession and absolution and this one woman after she went through the whole process and the thing she could it was juicy whereas usually people confess stuff that I might look you know nothing personal but I'm unimpressed with your sin like you should probably go out and try harder but she confessed something nice and juicy and then when she was relaxed and kind of laughing at the end she goes I'm so glad you're my pastor because I just I just know that you've done much worse than that well I I thought a lot about the kind of person that you want to tell your horrible stuff to and when I read your book I kind of wondered if a lot of what set you on your present path was that first church who was really Church to you do you mind telling us a bit about the rowing club as you called them oh yeah I mean you know as somebody in recovery it's just hard to do on your own you know you have to do it with it with a group of other people who are messed up in the same way you are but have found some light you know yeah in their darkness and so you know sitting in those rooms and 12-step meetings you just sort of I don't know there's there's a particular type of hope that only comes from being in the midst of people who've really suffered and who have suffered at their own hand and can be just completely and totally honest about that you know I mean there's so much more hope to be found there than to be found in people who their project is being as good as they can there kitchen yeah I mean I hear a lot of people's dreams their dreams seem really instagrammy yeah yeah my dream is to take a yoga class where I don't get angry [Laughter] king of you is bringing a rage to hobbies that don't necessarily elicit right yeah yeah yeah there is always a point you know and it's always a 20 year old and a hundred dollar yoga pants who will keep me in horrible uncomfortable positions for like really purgatorial amounts of time until I start grimacing and she's like we learned so much about ourselves on the mat you know exactly so you cultivated though I mean I think part of what I immediately loved about you was that you tend to cultivate the company of others who get that suffering who get that outsider yes and I'm are those people from your first church still kind of your template for those that you want to surround yourself with yeah in a way I mean there are ways in which like my congregation looks like two different communities I was a part of before I started the church in a way I wasn't aware of until after the church have been going for a few years and one of them definitely is you know 12-step community in terms of truth-telling you know I I feel like you know a lot of these 12-step programs are held in churches and I'm like man people are people are speaking honestly about their lives and are connecting to God and to one another so much more frequently in church basements than in church sanctuaries and so I think house for all sinners and saints the congregation that I've served for 10 years that I'm the founder of a little more church basement to you than church sanctuary this like like stark honesty about ourselves and our lives in the world that is spoken in that room and then the other one is this oddly this Unitarian summer camp that I worked at for five years in my early 20s and it was it was just such a profoundly accepting place and it was the first time that it felt like being me was a good thing instead of a problem and I showed up you know there on staff and I was like celebrated like people are like you're awesome I'm like I don't get that reaction much you know and and being in a space where I felt accepted and even celebrated man it allowed me to relax into myself in a way that that felt holy you know and and so I think that's one of the things people end up saying about the congregation is they're like you're just people are just accepted you just walk in the door you can relax you know so I think that my congregation ended up being this weird combination of these two communities that have affected me so profoundly well and remind me again why would they called the rowing club why did you call them that again well it's because there's this sense of like were this like rowboat of idiots or just doing as best we can and like when one of us jumps ship everybody else has to paddle harder and he not really had to do with my friend PJ committing suicide and he was he was a fellow stand-up comic and a member of the rowing team this 12-step meeting I went to and when PJ died it felt like all of us had to row harder because there wasn't a lot separating us from PJ and he had been doing some of the rowing for us you know and I actually think a face that way in innocence as well like I've been known to say that faith is a team sport not an individual competition in that like we we hold the faith on each other's behalf so like when I can't believe somebody else is believing for me and vice versa you know sometimes we're the ones being lowered through the roof to Jesus and sometimes we're the ones doing the lowering you know and I just think of it collectively in that sense you know yeah yeah I mean I loved your writing about how you really became a pastor in those moments a pastor to that particular beautiful community at a Funeral yeah yeah yeah I never meant to be a past I mean nobody had met me and thought you should go to seminary yeah but it was a fact that you know PJ died and my friends just looked at me and they were like well you can do the funeral right I wasn't in seminary at this point it was just I was the only religious one in my friend group you know and then I was standing there look it was at the comedy works in downtown Denver and it was just packed with queers and academics and comics and recovering alcoholics and I was giving PJ's eulogy and I just looked and I thought they don't they don't have a pastor and then my next thought was oh I think that might be me what what so it really might call you know quote called ministry is like really particular it's not generic in any or general it was really particular and it seemed like it came about in this really unvarnished way I I wonder I mean I wonder if he's still when you're doing funerals now if you ever do any of the same things you did in that first moment if there's like a something you discovered about how to do that hard work that just felt like it fit well yeah I guess I'd never thought about that I've already done a couple of funerals we don't really have elderly people in my congregation so to speak like yeah my parents I think might be all these people so I've only done a few funerals and 10 years of being a pastor I think I've done three so it's not a huge part of my pastoral practice but I think just in terms of being unafraid to speak the truth you don't have to make up things you know you can just speak the truth because if you do that about somebody both the sort of good and bad then there's going to be hope and humor and grace in it you know I like to say nothing's ever only one thing and like people are never only one thing so I think even in death you know we can tell the whole truth and it's okay so there's more hope to be found in this sort of both this and this thing you know than the this or this thinking so both end rather than either or you know weirdly enough that was my favorite part of the Tina Fey memoir right is when she said the best thing she learned from comedy was the like the yes and yes and you know I really found it like the worst my life gets the more I really revel in the absurd humor of life that makes sense to you absolutely I mean before you were a pastor you were a stand-up comedian and I loved that line in your I think it's in pastor X about how you learned honesty in these green rooms of comedy shows but it was a kind of emotional Darwinian ism people say the truth but they're like eating each other alive right I wonder though if you found a comedy that actually helps in dark times oh my gosh absolutely I mean that's why like super happy people who haven't had much suffering and don't have unusual brain chemistry's usually aren't that funny no no I feel like I know a world of girls named Caitlin and their lives are going great but they're not the funniest people particularly funny no I mean it is this sort of interesting survival mechanism that we have as a species you know because interesting thing about laughter and humor is there is a brain chemistry element to it you know so it's a bit of a reset button for our brain chemistry if we can laughs so it doesn't it keeps us from getting pulled under too deeply you know it's like that's how you come up for air you know so the other thing that I think it's important to note about humor is it's never funny to talk about it no there is no way when discussing humor you know it's like it's like when somebody has to explain a joke also I feel like in some way this is bizarrely related to when you see on someone's social media profile that they say they like to have fun you know you're like you can be guaranteed that they're not actually a very fun person to hang out but it's that they see other people having fun and they know that that looks like enjoyable stores are made for but I do love though I mean I love in your writing how transparent you are about the fact that during some of the worst moments they were also some of your more sort of comedic ly fruitful times so was it I mean you've been pretty transparent about your early years of comedy it was at the same time where you were battling alcoholism oh well and also just a note some of the funniest people are ICU nurses okay like just like okay I'll just say like when I was doing CPE CPE was clinical pastoral education where you have to go be a chaplain for a while I found them terrifying ICU nurses are terrifying I just tried to stay like keep my distance but I was checking in on this one patient who I was following and she had she tried to commit suicide she took a lot of pills and she had a brain injury from the overdose and they were keeping her under you know waiting to see what her functionality was gonna be so every day I would check in like is she awake and they'd be like no so we didn't know what her functionality was gonna be and so finally I went and I said is she awake they go up they go yeah yeah and I said so well you know what they go well you know she'll never be a jeopardy contestant but she'll play a hell of a chutes and ladders you know and I was only only people who are constantly around faced with the tragedy and could make that kind of joke yes yeah I've always had like my real high moments have always been those pre-surgery moments and you know I some of them have been unconscious like when I grabbed the nurse and pulled him really close to my face for my wisdom teeth removal and said keep the teeth yesterday what I made those creepy comments to the internorth nurse about like and how do you know how this procedure is done well the surgeon will claw through my skin like a badger ya aware I think maybe for ministry and with nursing that there's a pageantry that you have to go through yeah that also makes you just aware of the heightened drama yeah and you know it's just like I'm my congregation there's a there is a lot of just a bra rias laughter in the liturgy usually when we do something wrong like we think it's hilarious like we're anti excellent pro participation so you can imagine nothing's ever really done that well and we think it's so funny but but also they laugh most weeks the congregation laughs during the scripture readings to be honest because there's so much human folly in Scripture yeah and so instead of being pious and like listening to what the Lord say you know in a way they're listening for like where am I in this like where is the folly in this text and they just laugh and there's a lot of humor and sort of what other people might consider inappropriate laughter yeah throughout our life as a community and it's related to suffering in the sense that I think that because it's a congregation that is unafraid of suffering unafraid to speak the truth of suffering that that excavates something out within us that joy couldn't fill deeper that laughter can go deeper because that suffering has excavated something out within us yeah and I don't I can't totally explain how our capacity for to hold suffering is related to our capacity to experience joy but man I I think they're related I think that's exactly right I don't know like this last month was especially dramatic with health and oh my gosh you know and like the second I got bad news it was weird but I woke up the next morning and I sort of felt like someone had slapped me in the face and I felt like like bright and clear and some of it was so I had to take the stupid work trip and sorry wonderful work trip for those two I went with and I got off the plane saw friend and I said do you want to go visit the world's largest Ukranian sausage they're like yes yes I do it went right to the love of absurdity standing in a field jumping up and down for no reason throwing a party I mean I just wanted to do the stupid and the fun and yeah I mean I think that's right like the pain dig something out and then like yeah and joy fills it yeah I was I was thinking about how hard it is to hold on to some of the lessons you learn when you are broken because I mean I know you surround yourself by people you cultivate that sense of fragility I think in your life in a way that's really beautiful but I sometimes I feel like when I go through something awful it's more like pregnancy and childbirth like it's terrible I remember it I'm deeply implicated by these lessons and then it's over and I I find it really hard to hold on to but I know the sense of connectedness I had with other people who are also in pain do you think we're sort of destined to forget the important things we learned I can't remember yeah of course yeah and that's the hard thing is when you know I'll have some sort of aha moment I'll have a moment of clarity or something like that and then nine months later I'll think of it again for the first time in nine months do you know what I mean you know how much of a capacity for growth could we realistically have you know it's kind of like tide detergent has been improving itself since it was invented you know they new and improved I don't know like how much I mean I think that my hope is that we grow in wisdom like that there's wisdom that can that can sort of accumulate maybe in our lives that's my that's I mean if I have any hope for humans it would be that more than the hope being we don't make mistakes or we remember all of our lessons or we're constantly improving like Tide detergent or we've we've undergone the process of our own sanctification so perfectly that you know we don't actually need God anymore why is community events so important in making us all stop being total monsters well because it provides something we can't provide for ourselves but then it also confronts us like one of the reasons people avoid community is because you know other people are disappointing you know and yet by being in community we take turns being the ones who are disappointing and then forgive each other and move on you know and maybe it's that guy's day to be disappointing but next week it'll be me you know so there's that culture of turn-taking when it comes to being the ones who need grace or who are giving grace or who remind each other that grace is a thing you know that's why I think communities that are set up like here are the designated helpers and the healthy people and here the designated you know problem people everybody's both you know I've seen the more highly functional people in our community have a need met by some of the less functional people in the community yeah you know and if we tell ourselves a story other than that we're just not getting it you know yeah yeah I I've struggle with Church I mean I had to start a church I'd feel comfortable showing up to honestly but church in general is so limited in the it the way it's embodied and expressed in it it feels accessible only to certain types of people like if you happen to have that personality and you happen to have that life story then it's a great fit for you and you'll feel comfortable but like what about everyone else that's why I'm like house for all sinners and saints it's like if you took one of those colanders like a pasta strainer yeah with the little round holes in the bar and you put all the Christians in Denver anise or even the people who were even vaguely interested in Christianity in the big colander and like the ones that are - like oddly shaped to fit through the holes the ones that are left in the bottom afterward right those are the ones that's house for all sinners and sage you know there to sort of oddly shaped to go through the holes it's the lumpy Church oh gosh yeah my dad calls it he said it's sort of like high church at the Star Wars Cantina [Music] ovo players you know I I think for me one of the most painful parts of going to church and being sick is I'm often forced to explain why I'm sick like I'm the problem to be solved I think everywhere I go in every Facebook comment section it's a lot of everything happens for a reason yeah I wonder why you think people insist on being so trite about suffering because our own fragility is terrifying to us you know it's why people who are physically disabled are hard to be around because one thing could happen to me today and I could be physically disabled the rest of my life and I don't particularly like to embrace that fragility I like to ignore that that's even a thing or a possibility so it's easier to go well there's a reason that's happened to that right or whatever so I think it's like we're terrified of certain parts of ourselves yeah I mean this was a huge thing for me with which I've written about with like why are there so many socially awkward people at house for also sensation and I was like and I'm like why R&I attracting people like me you know and it wasn't until I was able to really look at my story and myself and things I tried to hide and not show and stuff from my childhood that was really painful and that profound alienation I experienced in my life like when I was able to look at that I was able to go oh well I have been attracting people like me from the beginning but it wasn't the you know funny tattooed sarcastic person it was the the bug-eyed sick painfully skinny girl who ate all of her lunches alone in middle school you know that that's who is bringing them in and so instead of reacting and going wow this person makes me uncomfortable you know I I kind of went oh like by loving them and accepting them I'm loving that you know twelve year old girl in me who I've done nothing but try and hide from everyone you know so it's hard I mean that's hard work so when people are sick it makes us uncomfortable because we could be next you know we don't want to we don't that kind of fragility and uncertainty is is a pretty devastating thing and so we try to cover our ears and go yeah or love the shiny version of me I really like that this makes me think of all the times in the last couple years when I've been the most raw and the most exposed and the most vulnerable and I have found it almost impossible then to separate how I see other people from how they see me you know and in the midst of the most vulnerable I think it does require you know the kind of community the kind of coming alongside but yeah I mean the kind of forgiveness you're describing in which we take our burden selves to each other and we say like I see that right yeah yeah so what do you say to people who think they're too hurt for community well sometimes I'll say vulnerability is Invitational when people have risked telling the truth about themselves in our community that has been unbelievably healing for other people for whom that thing is also true and have not been able to say it yet so I think that you know again it's the rowing team idea you know when somebody says something like takes that risk and I identify with it I feel less shame I feel more hope you know I feel less hidden and alone and so we do that for each other you know yeah and I think that's an important piece you know it's funny because people will fault me for saying bad words and you know as a pastor and you know on social media or whatever you're you're supposed to be an example you know I mean like an example of what like competitive piety or pretending to be someone I'm not what an example I'm like look if I'm an example yeah of something I'm an example of what it looks like to be in need of grace I'm an example of what it looks like to have received grace I didn't deserve is there something in the midst of the terrible times that someone can say that's especially helpful I get that question a lot and I'm curious about what you would say don't know I mean I can tell you what I said to my daughter when she had her first boyfriend last year and she was really happy and I said honey there's a reason so many songs and poems and movies and blah blah have been written about this feeling [Music] and and you know if this goes south or if he then hurt you or you break up there might be a commiserate low to the high your feeling and that will feel as shitty as this feels good and if that happens you should just know a couple things just because it feels bad doesn't mean something's wrong yeah and nobody escapes that you know like this is part of the deal so I don't know I think that those kinds of ideas you know the reason it hurts is because it's painful right not like the reason this thing in your life is hard is because hard things in life are hard yeah it's not a spiritual failing of yours that this feels bad but hard things are hard period yeah that's no that's a perfect thing to say mmm in the hospital I always think this sucks because it's painful I wrecked exhausted because it's exhausting and sometimes the church thing we can do for each other is to look honestly at one another's pain and say wow I can honestly say that that sucks yeah absolutely I mean it brings me back to my first thought about you you're someone I really want to tell my horrible stuff to peoples horrible I thanks so much for doing this today I really appreciate it you bet any time talking to Nadia makes me wonder if we all need to go to Alcoholics Anonymous immediately and just learn some things her whole imagination for what church should be like and friendship should be like seems to rest on a couple ideas that are staples for anyone in recovery first tell the truth it hurts but it also sort of feels good tell the truth about yourself and be the kind of person who wants to hear it when someone else says here is my horrible secret second you're probably useless by yourself Nadya had that rowing club her wonderful rowboat of idiots she said I had my besties who flew in to save the day my two best friends from Canada flew down to see me in North Carolina and then drove the 7 hours with me to Atlanta just so they could be there when I got my first chemotherapy treatment because I was terrified all I could picture were these awful chemicals pumping into my body and I thought I would immediately never be the same so they came along for the ride they brought snacks and they made fun of the hypochondriac nurse who advised me never to take a nap again they fixed my hair and they took pictures in order to perfect the chemo selfie I needed them to be there and to tell the truth even if the truth was oh honey yeah you look awful but then one of them took out some concealer and we were off to the races again [Music] so in the next episode I'm gonna talk to my friend ray Barfield ray was the best person for me in the worst moment of my life ray treats kids with cancer so somewhere along the way he had to figure out how to let people break your heart [Music] everything happens is produced by Duke University in association with North Carolina Public Radio W UNC support comes from faith and leadership an online learning resource this podcast is produced by Beverly Abel and Allison Jones sound engineering is by Dennis Foley with assistance from Ivan pan or us key special thanks to Amanda height and the B to change revolution team and Random House and we'd love to hear from you if you like what you're hearing please post a review on itunes and while you're there be sure to hit that subscribe button you can find me on Facebook always Instagram often and Twitter every day at Kate C bowler let's chat until next time this is everything happens with me Kate bowler [Music] you