I wanted to make the best film I could in the circumstances that I had I always say I was ready to go to the ends of the Earth to achieve that I got to go to Berkeley College of Music on a full scholarship and through Ted I was touring and speaking at conferences all over the world being a creative person in Pakistan most of the time you're just forced to not be that either Society or parental pressure and seeing so many brilliant artists that just aren't doing it anymore that look of regret and pain in their eyes when they talk about it being a creative person in that conflict that's happening around you what does that mean art is creation war is destruction so the Jos of a glass shop in Wartime the most fragile of substances in the most destructive environment animation was always the dream when the opportunity came and embark on this journey I had to take take that plunge cuz if I I didn't do it then I would die inside something just kept pulling me towards it I felt like everything else was just a waste of my time this is the one thing I should be doing keeping my heart open because I really many points wanted to close it off if you're not afraid if you're not nervous then it's apathy courage is the the fear and overcoming that fear and still moving forward that was the hardest part about [Music] andman R I said I can't believe we're here you know honestly I can't I'm really happy about it no I'm supremely grateful and for me it's an it's an honor to be here with you so thank you just to position this for everyone we're here after the world premiere of The Glass worker yes um now I don't think I'm not sure if anyone knows what that means so I'm going to hand it over to you for a second just to explain who you are Osman I think it's really important and why you decided to make a handdrawn animated feature in a country that doesn't support that structure big questions yeah no it's been a it's been a very long journey so I'm usas I am the co-founder of mono Animation Studios which is Pakistan's first handron animation studio studio and I am the director animator and co-composer on the glass worker which is our debut feature film and my directorial debut for handon animation I've directed two liveaction short films before this planned those two liveaction short films the same way I planned the gloss worker I drew every single storyboard but never imagined I would get to make a traditional 2D animated film in Pakistan it was a it was a childhood dream that I began the journey on in at the age of 23 uh in 2014 and now sitting here at ansy 2024 10 years later I'm 33 now but with a finished feature film which feels surreal to see a finished feature film wow what a thing to say yeah how did you find a reaction yesterday it was amazing because there's no better place for the glass workers World premiere than ansy because um it's the greatest Animation Festival in the world and also it's the most educated audience that will ever see this film in terms of The Craft of Animation everybody sitting there knew how long it takes to just make one second of animation and they sat and watched a 100 minute feature film from Pakistan our first uh animated film and I think every one was just uh in the moment I was trying to be very present and and just enjoying every second of it and trying to view the film from a detached point of view but I think viewing it with the audience and viewing it with uh people who are seeing it for the first time because I've seen it so many times um over the course of these especially these last two years it was a different experience and I'm humbled and grateful that we got to have that moment well thank you for inviting me I do want to say that of course but you put me sitting with all the crew and you know people kept coming up to me afterwards and congratulating me the fil I just like after a while I was just like yeah it was the labor of love thank you amazing no I'm glad and and and it meant a lot and I know ansy is supremely hectic for everybody so thank you for coming and watching the film and uh yeah I'm glad I to share that moment I've watched so many of your videos and uh it's a huge honor yeah well it was actually a real honor for me and I know we bantered that around but I I do really want to say that because I mean the the reality here is you've made a handdrawn animated feature right and I just want to impress on anyone who's listening like that is not an easy thing to do really and truly but the fact that you're able to backwards engineer uh from watching films you love because there's DNA of what you love in this heavy heavily because that's how you figured out how to do it you know everyone who sees the promotion work I think they would say it's very jibbly inspired but I think that's aesthetically in terms of the characters the volume of their clothes very inspired by Mia zaki's hand yes but there's also like colors and you know when he's sketching designs from the glass workk that's very Makoto shink Kai mhm you know you've got the the story elements of someone like like MOS that that like tight energy when it comes around to family um and it's just like you're wearing your influences heavily on your sleeves there was that just because it's what you wanted to do or you were just engineering it that way was it like a conscious thing I'm very open and honest about my influences the films that I love are the reason I want to make movies and um I wanted to just take the things I love about those movies and create an amalgamation that is my own um because nobody can be the next hayaki nobody can be the next makut shinkai and nobody can be the next Mur hos they are so um their work is so personal and and it's it's not genuine to try to replicate their work so all I can do is I can take what I love about their work and put it out through what I see in my mind and uh there's also a lot of love I have for the early Walt Disney works and uh the ones that he himself directed um there's this magic to those films that all I was trying to do when we made the glass workers if I can just take 1% just replicate 1% of that magic in my film I know I would have done something right and um that's all I try to do and what I can do is be myself so there were a lot of times in the in the cinema when we were watching it with the audience uh it was a packed Cinema so I felt this more than ever I felt very vulnerable while watching it because it was like people could everybody who doesn't know me was getting a very intimate look at what I value and cherish and and what the things that are important to me in the film and from an artistic viewpoint but also from a very personal Viewpoint so that was a new feeling for me um but now I wear my influences on my sleeve I love those films and um they're the reason I want to do this as well the story boards are still not a complete picture they're they're very detailed drawings of what will be happening in the film but it's still theoretical you have to put it all together with the music with the sound with everything thing fully finished the animation the backgrounds once it's all together and cut sequentially and when people watch that that's when they really see the vision uh because I can see it when I read my story boards but an animator working on one of the shots in a sequence of 12200 or 1400 Cuts won't see that so seeing the movie is when I truly felt that vulnerability but I embraced it and it was a new feeling for me uh I've been on the the Ted stage many many times and I've done everything very rehearsed and I know I'm prepared um so this was a different feeling but it's something I I grew to enjoy okay during watching it yes during watching because I was sinking into my seat the more uh as the viewing went on and then I said what are you doing just enjoy this moment and then I got back up and and I'm very proud of the film because I said this when I opened uh when I spoke that I wanted to make the best film I could in the circumstances that I had uh and I always say I was ready to go to the ends of the Earth to achieve that and I feel like with this film we did that I don't think I could have pushed it more than what it was and uh I'm very proud of proud of the movie for what it is in this moment of time you think hypothetically in the future you probably feel different about it right cuz you'll see the thread of where they started and how it's gone on I mean it's hard to answer that actually because we're not there no but the the thing I can draw parallels from is I released a lot of music and wrote a lot of music as a child as well and my earlier drawings but music is something I actually put out there um and that I was 19 years old and when I look back on it now I I don't cringe when I hear it because all I hear here is that was where I was at at age 19 uh and I don't think I could have done any better at age 19 if I'm I look at it like if I made something like the work I produced at 19 now then there's a problem because I haven't grown and I haven't improved but if I look at it just like a time capsule that or or a snapshot of where my skills and my um artistic ideas were at at the time I'm able to just appreciate app and enjoy it so I'm hoping that happens for the glass worker when I look back on it in 10 years that this is the best we could have done in this moment of time given the circumstances we gave it our best yeah you were talking a bit about you being 19 there and what jumped into my head is you know it's astounding for anyone to hear that you've run a handrawn Animation Studio Pakistan right but you're up against a lot of cultural boundar and in terms of hiring staff and we've talked about that before in a previous interview but I want to know from your perspective you've dropped out music College to make this right yes how did your parents react to that they said not again because I dropped out of my arts college in Karachi where I was studying illustration and uh graphic design I dropped out of that to pursue Ted and through Ted I went to Berkeley College of Music cuz I was touring and speaking at conferences all over the world um and I got to go to Berkeley College of Music on a full scholarship which was amazing I'm very very grateful but then 2 years later when the opportunity came to make a studio in Pakistan and and embark on this journey I had to take that plunge cuz if I I didn't do it then then I would never have done it so when I told my parents I think I'm going to drop out of Berkeley as well uh my father um my father was was okay my mother was just like why why are you doing this again just graduate you have two years left and something in me was just saying I have to I have to do this now so I'm grateful they were understanding and my parents have always been very supportive of my work in the sense that they've never discouraged me they've said whatever you do just do your best and I come from a very uh artistic family I've learned a lot from them but also growing up that was also a hindrance because whenever you would do something they would be like this is good but it's not as good as uh your uncle or your cousin and I remember being 10 years old and thinking but I'm 10 years old can you just cut me some slack here but it lit a fire in me that okay I have to prove myself here and if I can prove myself here then then I would have made it and um I remember just working really really hard very early on in my teenage years to just get my family to like a piece of music or a painting I had made but then I slowly began to realize that just do it for yourself and and that's when I really started making strides with my work that it's not a competition uh it's just how much can you push yourself and that's when the thrill of it started coming and and like when I said I liked the challenge of making the glass worker I did have a lot of fun because it was constantly just pushing yourself can I do this finding the strength inside to push through so I'm very grateful for this experience in terms of like a growth mindset for your your P personality right both personality and uh just learning how to get better in the Arts uh and creativity so just pushing yourself in in all aspects well I think you've always kind of had that right I mean you're Ted fellow and you've an incredible guitarist a great musician as well thank you I know but you you are like I've seen those videos that you playing and I can't remember like the style of guitaring that you do but it's like totally fingers you're playing up and down like um Andy mcke or any of those brilliant brilliant artists that's not easy right yeah but you can do that you're also a really good uh public speaker that's also not easy right but now you're a really good artist as well do you think all these things have been leading toward animation like the whole time or are they just kind of feathers in your cap along the way animation was always the dream animated movies was always the dream growing up as a child I would say and just draw and I remember pausing movies and studying how the animation was done um and when uh YouTube and everything came about and and people started uploading animation work on on YouTube I think it was 2006 2005 it started I would constantly search for things that people will be putting up because you can pause uh and and just go frame by frame and look at everything and that was that was amazing and my my public speaking and music all of that I was able to refine and hone in because of the Ted platform one thing I'll never forget is the first Ted coaching session that I had in 2012 uh where all the Ted fellows were gathered and one of their speaker coaches came and said everybody at Ted is talented what separates you is how you present your work so I'm going to teach you how to talk about work that really opened my eyes up and I was I was 20 years old at the time so it it it broadened my mind so much that it's not just about putting in the work and and the vision and the talent it's also about how others perceive it how you present it and that adds to the entire Journey that adds to the The Experience itself so I really valued that that's why why I put so much time into the behind the scenes documentary documenting everything for 10 years um I didn't think it would take 10 years the entire Journey but I felt it was important this these moments will be relevant later because I kept thinking back to it's everybody is talented it's how you present your work um so those life lessons were very important and ultimately coming to animation which I again never thought would be a possibility in Pakistan I did at some point think maybe I should go work in America or Japan and I did explore that idea when I went to Tokyo in 2015 uh when I spoke at one of the conferences there and was invited to a lot of Animation Studios I kept thinking that maybe this is the next step I need to take but it was actually at Studio jibli when I was invited and I burst out crying but after I saw everything uh Shin hashida was showing me around um and we sat down in the jibli cafeteria and I showed him my very early story boards and he very kindly said you're clearly uh talented and you can do this but if you want to make this film start your own Studio he I'm paraph phrasing it but he said something along those lines and and like I look back on it now maybe he was just trying to get rid of me at the time but I took that advice to heart and I think it was much more worthwhile starting our own studio and building on everything that I had picked up along the way and applying it at mono Animation Studios you talked before about an opportunity presenting itself that pulled you out of college what did that look like I remember I was staying up we had already started uh pre-production on the pilot for the glass worker so the the kickstarter pilot yeah we had raised the money we had raised $116,000 to make at the time what I thought would be 8 minutes of Animation that turns out no it was just 5 and 1 half to 6 minutes to create like a a Prelude to what I envisioned the glass worker can be working in Pakistan and I was going to classes in the day at Berkeley and then staying up pretty much all night working with the team in Pakistan and then whatever moment I would have free at University I would be sitting with my drawing tablet and and either giving feedback or Imagining the story boards and drawing the story boards for uh the first version of the film and it got to a point where I was starting to fall sick um because I wasn't getting any rest and I said I have to choose do do I continue Berkeley or do I just jump fully into the animation that we're trying to achieve and it was a pretty simple Choice was it like um you talk about this feeling inside you that was driving you how how could you describe that I wonder in terms of emotional like was it a a fear H and like I don't want to miss this opportunity or is it like this is the only thing I feel like I should be doing this is the only thing I should feel like I should be doing uh it was exactly that it was why am I again I I'm very grateful I went to uh Berkeley College of Music and I learned a lot there but I felt like everything else was just a waste of my time and that this is the one thing I should be doing MH and I felt like it's a strange feeling but I I felt like I would I would die inside if I didn't do this um something just kept pulling me towards it and I entered this sort of tunnel vision state where nothing mattered apart from getting this movie done and that was very difficult as well it was difficult on my family it was difficult on everybody around me that this is all that matters but I feel like I had to do that to get this done yeah it's hard right it's hard to make that decision because you're sacrificing social elements of your life right that are necessary for survival but at the same time this is an idea and I I'm not sure if we've spoken about it yet in the past but this kind of sense of creativity where there's something in humans that we just need to create and when we latch on to that it's like the true life begins if that makes sense we're we're trying to not not even sure whatever that creation looks like for that person you know in our space it's artistic you know whether it's animation or for me it's conversations I have this uh deep pull toward just understanding where people come come from and trying to help give that back to people to help Inspire them right to say you know you may look at something in the outside and say oh my gosh you know what a beautiful piece of art but then when you hear what's in the inside it shows how possible it is and it shows people like who may be struggling with making that choice to say actually it's worth it you know yeah it's not easy as you know but it's it's truly worth it you know and at least Le then you can build your bridge and you can finish that and know what's on the other side of that door when you open it because it's for me I always visualize it as a door you need to open but with that comes a lot of pain a lot of Sorrow there's so much like immediately but then it kind of levels itself out I'm not sure if that's your experience with it but that for me talking to creatives is generally how it goes that is precisely what it is like absolutely and you know everyone I completely agree that you you don't know how difficult it is till you actually take that plunge yourself and I'm grateful that going into this because I had studied so many of my heroes and their Journeys they all talked about how challenging and difficult it is so that it it really does help it helps prepare you mentally that what you're about to do is not going to be easy and having said that you don't know till you experience it you don't the only thing you can do is prepare and and then when you're in the thck of it then it's just your wits that keep you going and and for me it was just pure stubbornness uh going through this entire Journey everybody was saying uh early on that you're crazy for for trying to do something like this and especially in Pakistan and the only thing I kept thinking is why why are we limiting ourselves to the fact that it's not possible when just because nobody has done it before doesn't mean we can't nobody has done it yet is how I kept telling myself how I motivated myself going forward not that nobody has done it because it's impossible it's just it hasn't happened yet so we can be potentially the first to do it and then it might become supremely easy for people later if this film does well and like I said at the when I spoke at the premiere that will a thriving film and animation industry in Pakistan exist time will tell Will I be very jealous of them when they do have it much easier yes I will be but uh it it is a plunge that yeah you you take and you understand how difficult it is only when you're going through it my dad used to say um if you're between two things like a dry land or a boat you won't know until you step onto one fully yes that it's the right place for you and I always found great he only told me that like two years ago but that's amazing it's a good advice it's a very good advice and I put it a lot through that filter of being like I won't know until I try it and it's kind of I always find it like a this is a separate side point but it seems to be like the limitation of humanity is we can learn from what people people have done before because everything that's happened to every human ever has been written down you know the whole experience is mapped out but we as individuals will never really know what it's like until we actually gain the experience ourselves you know we can read all the books in the world but it's not until the emotion sets in and you've got some kind of experiential thing that I think you truly learn from it and that's where you know even though I love films it's not until I've had similar life experiences that I'm able to connect to it deeply and if we think about that in terms of something like the glass worker because you've positioned it in kind of a Proto uh influence Pakistan world right in terms of artistic how they're constantly having you know those round Suites the gulab jamun and that's all they want to have all the time you know that's all very specific to your culture but at the same time it does have that Japanese design flare but because the voices are so British it also feels British so this kind of interesting mix but underlying all that is like this simple Love Story first love right and that makes it so much easier to connect to something that complicated because it is a complicated story really within that Simplicity you know and you guys I was so worried I never said this to you at all right but when I first watched the promotional work I was like okay this feels so romantic like in a romantic setting I know you have the war H also displayed but the music everything is so romantic I hope it doesn't fall completely that way and boy it didn't at all it it does not pull it punches there was bits where I was like oh my God I don't to spoiler for anyone watching but um what's the general I don't have a question here I'm just talking what's it what what's in regards to the general release of this what's the plan for putting it up out like so I was just so focused on premiering it here at Anese I'd forgotten that we're releasing the film in Pakistan July 26th so as soon as we get done with the festival uh Kar maram and I have to go back and and plan how that release is going to happen but um there so we're we're working with Shades Shades is our sales agent and very very grateful to be working with Johan and his team and they are currently working on uh the deals that will hopefully get the film into territories where International audiences will be able to see it so I'm just biting my nails and waiting for those announcements and we'll see what happens but uh I'm just the film takes on a life of its own and that's what I'm coming to terms with now that once it's out there it won't just be mine it'll be every body who watches it so that's something I'm excited and nervous to experience because I've just kept it to myself for so long and just tweaking and adjusting and improving whatever I can knowing that I'll never be able to do that um that's when I bring up the mentality I was talking about earlier that in this moment in time this is what the film is and this is the best it could be and whatever I learned and whatever I want to improve I can hopefully apply to the next project yeah let's talk a little bit about story development then because you talked about presentation in terms of Ted right how something is good it's packaged surely that idea of how to present something must have fed into the story yes how did that plan out like well let's say in a very um tactical sense that's kind of stay story technical even though I know it's emotional how does that like lay out for you where it's like I know I want to tell a story but what's the most impactful way to tell that right so these are all things I was thinking about while we were developing the story The the technical angle of whether to make the film a linear story or not and the way I simplified it the film is told in a series of flashbacks but it's still a very linear sequence of events so you have your present day timeline going which is Vincent in and his father preparing for their glass exhibition and then the the other timeline going for the past with Vincent and Alise's relationship and what happened there and the good thing about having those two parallel timelines going is that I could just visit certain key moments in their relationship or in Vincent's life and just show exactly what the character is going through um so I I because sometimes when movies have flashbacks that they're not linear it's just for this one it was just cutting back to then this happened and then present day then that happened and then present day and then the way I saw it is you see when you meet a human being uh you just meet them for what they are in that given moment in time and then as you get to know them you learn about various stories in their life that add a lot of depth to to the character of or version of that human that's in your head so for Vincent I tried to do that which is that you see him in the beginning as this uh accomplished glass blower who is running their shop and then you keep revisiting him and finding out more about his bust and then hopefully the Vincent you see in the end which which is in the same day uh as when you saw him in the beginning of the movie you see all the depth and and experience that he's gone through and hopefully the depth to his character um in terms of the technical presentation that's what I was thinking about and Alise's letter was the perfect way to visit their relationship and also Vincent to explore uh just himself and and we get to go into his mind but that's the technical way how I rationalized the format of the movie when I was drawing it I didn't think about any of this okay you laid out the story at that stage and you were just going through drawing the emotions right yeah so now when I said earlier that there's only like one ha Miyazaki he famously doesn't even write his scripts he just draws the movie the way he sees it and I love in documentaries where he's just sitting there the I think it was uh 10 years with Miyazaki where he's just struggling to find the ending for Pono um I didn't have that luxury nor do I want that uh I had a script and I adhered to the script as much as I could the good thing is once I had that Foundation I could deviate from it and then come back to what the story foundation was so I really enjoyed that and because we had done all of the technical thinking prior to actually drawing the storyboard uh this the foundation was solid so I could just kind of read it and close my eyes and see the movie in my head and then draw more story boards and I enjoyed that process very much and it was it was very peaceful because I was in a corner of the studio I had a stopwatch with me uh and I would just draw frames and then time them and see the movie in my head and see multiple versions of it like the characters can do this now will that be interesting no and then think of something else and then draw that and keep moving forward I really really enjoyed the the storyboarding process I think in terms of everything that was my favorite part about the movie because that's when it's coming together and and you're seeing what's in your mind's eye on the page and I followed the the Japanese approach to how the film is made with my storyboard papers and sheets and writing my notes and dialogues and planning every single frame and uh there's a technical approach to it as well where you can plan for the multiple planes of animation and what you want happening when the camera bans or moves and how the different layers will uh affect the Parallax of the shot I planned a lot of the key frames as well and because the team was so inexperienced I felt like I had to draw in great detail so that I could explain to every department whether it a background being painted or uh some of the character animation being done uh what the character will move like what key poses I want them to hit sometimes the shots turned out exactly the way I wanted sometimes they were not what I wanted at all but good enough and sometimes uh the animators who I worked with came up with something so lovely that I was like we have to do this instead um my shots I obviously sat and made them exactly the way I wanted um and sometimes there would be accidents that would make it either better or worse but has to keep moving forward I just love the craft I love sitting there and just building this movie Step by Step but that couldn't have happened without all of the planning we did prior so that I could have this free flowing storyboarding uh and animating session on it so it's a mixt of the technical and the creative the the storyboarding Oh you mean the whole process just the whole process we did a lot of planning and then execution and there was freedom in that execution because of the planning you guys have to for the freedom in that execution you need to be pretty locked tight in terms of your budgets and what you can do at that stage right so had that all been mapped and planned out totally at that stage because I know you at some points you're still looking for finance years you know you're still kind of chasing in around bits and pieces but is the core of the work lock budgeted done and then if more money comes on board that's for extra things kind of stuff definitely that that is what we we set out with we had the budget in mind for what is technically achievable for us and we had the timeline in mind um as we kept working um obviously some things shifted around but the goal was always to complete Within These certain number of years and then when charades came on board we had an exact month to it rather than like okay by this quarter we should finish so it was all working towards that goal of completion and regarding the budget absolutely like there were only a certain amount of drawings we could afford a certain amount of backgrounds and and detailing that we could afford so because we finalized the style in the beginning and we uh laid out our character sheets planned everything as much as we could we were able to kind of just cookie cutter create each shot now there's a story that goes into every single shot but when we when we uh pull out and and view it from uh a broader wider lens we were able to cookie cutter each shot and create everything the way uh we had envisioned fitting the budget and the aesthetic of the film um and certainly if we had more budget I the first thing I would put that into is the amount of drawings that uh went into each uh individual shot and like the shots I animated myself that's when I was like money is not an issue time is an issue but money is I'm going to sit here and make the amount of drawings I want uh because a lot a lot of the work that we did like you would plan the key frames and then send it off for inbetweening but I would in between my own I would I would put in these are the exact amount of drawings I want here so I can get the kind of motion and movement I want in those shots uh so I I'm grateful I got to do that but definitely uh more drawings I mean you do see like it does appear and this is brings back to the point where this is the most technically apt audience you're ever going to have watching this you do see the limitations of technicality and ability but that's only because we're able to bring critical eye it it does not detract from anything at all and at times I'm actually marveled at the stuff you guys were able to get done that train turning in perspective you know um grains of sand falling through people's hands that bit where comes up in the beach and you see the little specs of sand being washed away as well they're not easy things to do right they're not you know hand playing violin abut yeah this is not easy it's so ambitious absolutely and I think like the level of passion that I brought to it a lot of people who were involved in the animation brought to that so the shot that you're talking about with the the the sand moving away into the water that was all our animation director Amir rit's doing and he was just so passionate about bringing that same level of detail and and and movement to the shots that I was and our approaches might be completely different but the the the passion was the same and the same goes for our animation supervisor and everybody working on the project that loves the craft of Animation everybody worked very hard given the time that we had and the circumstances that we had to make this movie as good as it can be so yeah um where did you make it easy for yourself at any stage that that happen I think uh just purely from a tech technical uh Viewpoint what we did to make things easier was uh just some of the kind of shot the some of the shot compositions that I chose some where uh maybe you don't see the the movement happening like when Vincent this is a just a technical uh explanation like when he discovers a box in a tin crate that's in the store room the shot I chose to show him taking that box out of the crate and placing it on his lap was a closeup so that we see his expression and reaction to the the discovery and then with sound design you just you have good character animation for the eyes and the face and you you register his emotions and then he turns and then you choose the next shot as wide with it on his lap and through sound design you can fill in the blanks like that's where we made I tried to make things easier that you know I can get into the technicalities of how he will lift everything out and place it on his lap and I just thought it wasn't important in that moment and it's a good shortcut to keep moving forward and progress the story but then there are moments where I chose a mailman coming and pulling a leather bag out and animating all the physics on that just because I wanted to so um again uh given the circumstances I'm very proud of what we were able to achieve and the the way I rationalize that with myself as well is I love Nintendo and the the aesthetic of a game like Super Mario 64 I mean sure now it doesn't look as amazing as what they're doing then but they had such good art direction that they just made the blockiness part of their aesthetic when you have great art Direction everything can just uh you can do the suspension of disbelief while you're watching the movie and just accept the world the way it is same for video games uh like the the early Nintendo 64 games like Ocarina of Time and Mario 64 where they hadn't quite figured out what to do with the 3D uh environments but because their art direction is so solid those games still look great today uh games like the Persona Series where they they have a very defined aesthetic and art d ction that they're not photorealistic nor do they look as complicated as other video games that Japanese developers make but it's just aesthetic that is so uh identifiable and the world so uh beautifully imagined that the mind accepts it so with the glass worker that's how I rationalize that if we have solid art Direction and if the aesthetic is maintained throughout then people will just accept it and and be sucked into the world that's really interesting it's funny where influence comes from right it's it's really like everything you love is just poured onto this film absolutely yeah but you'd think that's something like you know the reason why I ask about making things easier for yourself when I think about someone like you know the guys in cartoon Saloon their character design was more even though there beautiful aesthetic a lot of that was also budget wise where they're going to have animators at loads of different levels like very good and you know more Junior to be able to handle that and it can go through their hands and not feel different but also it's just quicker to animate less detailed right but you threw in lots of detail you know you've got hair on characters faces you know you also have characters growing up over a series of years yes so you're constantly changing their design so it's kind of hard to for an animator to get the grasp of something when they're animated kids to teenagers to adults like that's big stage differences as well like it's a very very difficult thing to do so that's why I'm always just amazed at you guys because it doesn't seem like you gave yourselves many shortcuts in doing this but that stands to the strength of the movie as well right no you're you're absolutely right and I think cartoon Saloon their art Direction and aesthetic is just so vibrant and beautiful um and because of the simpler character designs they're able to put more drawings in um and the movement is extremely fluid throughout all their movies um what Japanese animation does is they focus on poses rather than movement they have very defined poses that the characters go from so the key frame animation looks very different compared to uh Western animation I think that choosing that sort of an aesthetic play it in our favor because okay if we don't have the budget to put so many drawings in the film what can we do to still make it aesthetically pleasing and that was a call I took early on where okay we're going to focus on making the majority of the drawings as good as they can put a little bit more detail into them and focus on hitting good poses that create interesting Silhouettes that make the the composition of the shots interesting and just the film a hopefully Pleasant viewing experience um so it was a technical limitation that brought that about actually okay that's amazing as well then it's funny how these choices come about isn't it in terms of that because you wouldn't you you don't necessarily feel that I know you're saying next time more drawings you want characters more fluid walking across the camera and stuff that's in terms of developing the world right you know you've got background characters and stuff um your world definitely felt very populated you've got these Market scenes and you've got characters living in in their lives and you've got some really beautiful background characters as well very well designed for a very short period that they're in the film as well is that an area you'd like to focus on next time as well to fill that out more or I think the so first of all our character design team worked extremely hard I know I detailed the story boards and did all of that work but it was an added layer of detail that everybody had to add so I'm very very grateful to everybody who did that uh but I think the focus on the primary characters in the the again the type of Animation style that we chose for the glass worker and then keeping the backgrounds uh and background character is a little more impressionistic not really moving constantly that there's a pleasant there's a charm to that uh because that's in a lot of the films I grew up watching and and I always loved that about it that the world is still behind but uh the the primary characters are the ones moving in front um and that's an aesthetic that even now like um obviously directors like makot sha muru hos and uh Studio J alyia Zaki still do I think that's a just a a choice that they make that it's not necessary those details aren't necessary the sound design uh kind of fills in those gaps and we're really focused on our on our characters where the action is happening but then you also have M films where he has a a tremendous amount of CG extras in the that are constantly moving throughout so I don't know uh I guess the type of project that we choose to do next would determine the direction we go in I think it made sense for for this film well you're you're so um protagonist focused right as opposed to World building focused even though there's great world building in this as well you know but you found a story reason for everything you know which is very very smart to do as well and how everything ties together but you have fun with it like you know the general parachuting in home not necessary you could just walk in the door you know I I burst out laughing when I saw that in the cinema is it was just a fun sequence that wouldn't it be interesting and the characters also responding to it like what is going on why is he doing this come look so we we made something fun out of it um but the protagonist Focus thing was very important because I learned this early on I I love behind the scenes documentaries and have watched so many not just for animation but for liveaction uh films as well and I remember I had read Lord of the Rings prior to the the movies that I saw cuz my parents were huge uh and they're Avid readers but they're huge fans of Lord of the Rings and I read that and I remember the book being brilliant book I love the book but it's all over the place in terms of uh continuity and character perspectives so when I saw Lord of the Rings and I heard Peter Jackson saying that we're going to make it based around Frodo's perspective of everything that's happening especially in Fellowship of the Ring I knew what the book was like so it was like viewing it from a completely different lens M which was very very interesting and for the glass worker the original script was much longer and the original cut of the movie was much longer and we had both Vincent and elise's perspectives on a lot of things I had drawn the 1477 shots for the glass workers original story board that we then reduced to 1,200 shots uh we cut almost 300 out which were other characters perspectives and just made it Vincent's point of view for the world and when we were working with the editor that's what I Revisited where I was like I remember they did this for Lord of the Rings we should just focus on Vincent's perspective it's called The Glass worker originally I wanted both of their perspectives and and and you see the world from her point of view as well there was this whole sequence that I drew that I just loved which was um the colonel uh is not home and Alise's mother is alone and Alise is playing the violin the piece that she writes in the film um and it's just echoing through the house and I just wanted that moment with the characters uh and I was really wanted to play around with the sound design but when we were sitting with the editor which is Jose uh Manuel Jimenez uh one of Manuel Christal's proteges and just a brilliant editor I had to take that call with him and say it's not serving Vincent's perspective even though it's a just what I thought would be a beautiful sequence and never even got to the animation stage on it because we cut it out in the animatic process um but I I wanted to see the world through his eyes and because I had drawn most of the story boards from his perspective it was fairly easy to do but it's it's important it's important to be for everything to happen in the story through the characters but you know that plays into something that you love and you adore which is a sense of mystery you know you're all about mystery that then allows someone to just put their own idea of what Elise is going through rather than giving away everything right that's really the strength of a story is to leave gaps for the audience you're respecting them in that sense yes I I completely agree and I mean it's that again I'll go back to video games where link from The Legend of Zelda the silent protagonist but I love that because he can embody whatever I want him to embody and I love it when movies don't explain everything I I don't enjoy Exposition dialogue where every motivation of every character is explained and I think it's so much more powerful to be silent m um there has to be a lot of technical proficiency to be able to achieve that of course but I love films like that and um hopefully we were able to achieve that with this one I think you did at least for me because Elise is still a bit of a mystery right you can kind of get her sense of where she's going but there's still that kind of mystery of um you've given enough that you kind of understand who she is and and and stubborn she can be right but at the same time you you're also giving everyone enough to be like questioning things and you're not quite sure where she's going to go next you know that kind of way which I think is powerful storytelling that's powerful thank you and if you go back to the Lord of the Rings you know those those documentaries that they released in those extended edition DVDs I devoured those as a kid yes and they were what made me want to be work in film like I I mean the craft and I keep going back to them as an adult and I'm learn I'm getting more as a kid I was just like oh would you know that the charge the ride of the rerum when they're like attacking the Orcs at minister right as a kid I was like oh this is cool back to Aragon and the Gang come on but as an adult I'm just like how terrifying is it to be in that charge of men oh yeah you know running into that Army screaming d at the top of their lungs you know like that's powerful now as an adult I'm just like I would not survive that I'd be gone you know the battle in the grave Ravine I'd be one of those Lads falling off absolutely you know and there's a reality that comes with that as you age whereas as a kid you're the hero as you age you kind of are just like oh maybe I'm not going to survive this but which you guys in the glass work you showed that as well you know you have loads of characters but when you get get to these battle scenes it becomes real like the it really starts punching you in the gut and that's respecting Humanity I think in something like this first of all I just want to say that the the Lord of the Rings behind the scenes feature at on the extended editions is exactly what made me also want to just be a part of this magical world because you when you love the film so much but then you see the experience of making it and they documented everything they they they had footage of the the the hobbits just sitting there in their trailer with their wigs and feet being glued on and uh everything you could you felt like you were a part of the team and I really loved that George Lucas also did that with episode one The Making of featurettes on the the the DVD for Phantom Menace and that was when like DVDs were just coming and and and all of a sudden you had access to how the movie was made I devoured those as well and that's also the motivation for me to make the behind the scenes documentary for the glass worker cuz I was like how can we not do it I love those documentaries and you just you see the camaraderie they had while making the film with animation it's different cuz you're sitting in one room and you're not building all of these amazing sets in locations in New Zealand and um I mean w a workshop is just incredible but the there was still that camarad and I would sometimes show the team that documentary and said watch this because this is why I love films and movies um And in regards to the the war scenes in the glass worker I think there's a tonal shift that comes along in the movie where the harsh reality of War really sets in MH and it's timed with Vincent and El's obviously entering puberty and the their world is changing and they're growing up but I wanted to to tackle that headon because you keep talking about I kept talking about the war in the film and just I didn't want it to be a Let Down When You See It ultimately that was the fear that oh they're all talking about this war this war is coming this war is coming we have to within the budg that we have make this war sequence as the actual term awesome as it can be um so we we worked really hard to do that and I gave myself out of the shot allocation that we did for the movie I think 32 shots to show the entire War sequence and we were able to pull it off in in 32 and just show the scale of it but also the the intimate moments with some of the characters yeah I think I think those um the flying ships do a lot of work there as well in terms of bringing the war around with them right and um when you talk about that kind of great Ravine sequence um they're a central part of the battle as well you know and it shows the scale of this kind of stuff um which is really dark and dangerous and gut-wrenching when the reality comes in and you know a film like this needs that because like I said otherwise it would fall too much in the Romantic you know you know that scene where uh Vincent's talking to his dad and like recounting the story of their mother and Vincent keeps talking over his dad that's very sweet yeah but you cut it off at the exact right time you know where it's just like this could go on and it could be too romantic and it could be too sweet but it they literally walk into the war you know which is powerful powerful storytelling there really and truly and your influences in the glass worker from your life let's talk about how you came about this story and what part of you living in Pakistan let's say or growing up in Pakistan at the time came through that outside of all these artistic influences is right there has to be a real world influence as well yeah so the original intent for the story was just to kind of capture the feelings I had growing up in a country like Pakistan being a creative person where there you're growing up around a lot of conflict the world changed after 9/11 um but when you're a child it doesn't fully register what's happening so you still keep living your life and still have what you think is a normal childhood but then when you are older you look back and say maybe that wasn't the most uh normal thing you could have gone through so that got me thinking that I would like to explore this because I don't think I'm uh damaged or traumatized in any way but it was a unique way to grow up and being a creative person in that conflict that's happening around you what does that mean uh art is creation war is destruction those two Polar Opposites um so the jux toos of a glass shop in Wartime the most fragile of uh substances in the most destructive environment that visual metaphor and just there's a wonderful line at the end of the film that Mariam wrote um which was without art and music what do we have in this world full of conflict and War um I think that was motivated by something she read which was that you go to war to preserve the Arts and your culture and everything else and and war is is uh I keep saying this that is not the answer to anything ultimately it's the people caught in the conflict that suffer regardless of whoever the Victor is so how do you deal with all of these emotions and feelings for me it was just getting lost in creativity but then you're told that that is a useless skill set when everything is falling apart around you what are you doing uh to progress Society um all of these things the questions the characters ask each other was motivated very much by growing up in Pakistan why are you studying art wen't you becoming an engineer things like that what does it mean to be an artist again this all came from the mind of a 23-year-old I was 23 when I wrote all of this and then we developed it further with Moya but um would I make it differently now of course I would but then again I apply the same ideology that at 23 these are the things that mattered to me and actually my younger self kept motivating my older self because whenever I would get too jaded and I was like what am I even what was I thinking when I was making this I would be like no but 23-year-old Usman would have expected you to see this through so I would keep looking back at how motivated and passionate I was like 8 years ago 9 years ago and be like no I have to push through uh because I believed I could get it done then uh which is a strange way of talking about what motivates you but I would I would think about that quite often I think you've answered the complexity very succinctly in the film you know how they're labeled as cowards and all this kind of nonsense but the the one character that shines through the most in terms of that complexity is the konel because this is a man clearly in love with the Arts who was never given the opportunity to pursue that you know wishes he could play music to to the same way his daughter can and is Sheltering her so she can pursue that you know and you've got that beautiful family portrait where he's behind his dad right and his dad is a colonel and you can just in those like visual beats you're like I understand who this man is he's got this Daredevil personality and you know he he understands the sacrifices he needs to make but at the same time you can tell that like part of his soul died when he couldn't you know experience art in that sense and I think that's strong strong stuff right because that that's where I see the influence of you know we haven't talked about it yet but how you set up the studio and having to convince people to work there who really wanted to but then having to convince their parents as well that must have been quite a journey I don't think I've ever actually asked you how that was on a day-to-day basis like I know you're trying to push through a passion but it must have been tough as well right it was extremely tough and the Colonel's character is a perfect uh a and representation of just what it's like for some people growing up in and being a creative person in Pakistan most of the time you're just forced to not be that and pursue more traditional uh Avenues and I've seen people who's who I would remember from school who were so brilliant and and they just stopped in whether it was music or art because they had to either Society or parental pressure and um at I mean I do understand they have to make a living and there was no future and nobody very few people will just keep pursuing their passions uh maniacally I know what you me yeah um so I do understand that do you mean maniacally like you yeah um not everyone is as lucky and that's something I I'm very thankful for every day that I got to do it but I remember just seeing so many brilliant artists and musicians growing up that just aren't doing it anymore and that that look of regret and pain in their eyes when they talk about it it hurts me a lot when I see it because I can I can empathize I can understand if I didn't get to do something I really love uh just because it's frowned upon that's that's unfair um and so the the the colonel represents that I mean I I tried to inject as much of that as I could into it so I'm very grateful you saw that um it's it's difficult growing up in a in a country like Pakistan um I'm only realizing it now uh like I said when you're a child you don't notice it yeah it is difficult it's very different you know to talk a bit about my upbringing it's very creative you know I had very creative in a sense of my mother was very against um Society she just reallying yeah it's amazing in one way but and and that gives you freedom of expiration which is truly beneficial and you're kind of always seen as an outsider so it was never really a problem for me but on the other end of that she she would do it because of it it was like a an ego-driven decision so that's that's a difficult thing to unpack then as well because it's not like um something out of the kindness of your heart she's doing it because she doesn't want to be like everyone else you know which is a fine thing for someone but when you're under that umbrella of um uh development you're also like well you you know people are away for a certain reason they just kind of get locked into the confines of society I think Joseph Campbell talks it about it like you know the dragon is in you and each of the dragon scales it says you should you should you should and it's really hard to break out of that but ultimately we all have our dragons that we need to slay and whether they come from creative Role Models or non-creative Role Models as you grow up you kind of gather more and more of these shs without thinking it through at least I anyways and it took a long time to break that and I'm very grateful for this podcast to be able to do that because it gives a voice to creative inspiration I hope to kind of give back to people and say talk passionately about what you love and don't worry about it because that means you're speaking from your heart and you can never be wrong then yes you just can never be wrong in that sense so that's why something like the glass worker and I've said this many times to you it's so inspiring to see what you guys did and obviously there's you there's Mariam as well Hiser and your whole team you know the passion you guys have whether it's they're like siphoning off your passion and your stubbornness but you know it's funny Moya was sitting beside me in the um premere and when you guys are speaking when you're done she turned to me and said they're all poets aren't they and I think that's a beautiful way of looking at you guys because it's it's like you're really thinking deeply about what you want to say and you're presenting it in a digestible way to everyone but inspiring and that's why it was always such an honor to sit down and talk to you even today I'm so grateful for this and I hope I really hope someone who's sitting in your position at 23 kind of gets to see this and says that was tough but worth it yes no thank you and I I'm just extremely grateful and the reason I articulate my thoughts and and think so much about what I want to say is because I really and truly do respect the audience um if a movie or a a piece of music or anything is not entertaining for the the reader The Watcher The Listener then it it doesn't matter if it's a exploration in self-indulgence it has to be personal because that's why they like you that's why they want to see more of your work but it has to be respectful and every single film that I love uh does that it makes me feel intelligent uh when I watch it and um respects me like obviously the works of Miyazaki and and Mos they do that for the viewer so when I speak to an audience I want them to succinctly just know what I'm trying to say understand it I don't want to Ramble On I don't want to uh not be rehearsed I take it very seriously when I go out there and say I I'm going to be addressing this audience and I want to give them the respect they deserve cuz I would like that if I was sitting there I don't like it when people go up and kind of play with their hair and say I want to thank my sister and start crying and not clearly having not thought about it of course if they're nervous that's completely different but I I rehearsed that talk quite a bit before going up on stage don't worry I know yeah we can see that though but that's your Ted training right it's all coming through whereas you're very specific about what you want to say it was the same with the work in progress right very rehearsed who's going to say what at what stage but it was authentic that as well and that's the most important thing about it is you can still be prepared but authenticity shines through and that's being able to open your emotions and share it with people right it's very it's very easy in the world to kind of close your heart you know the world is constantly trying to establish your heart but to keep it open is is a gift to everyone else and to walk through the world with an open heart very difficult to do um and I'm not saying that to be naive or anything but I mean it in a sense of be who you are and show your emotions authentically show your process auth authentically because everyone's changing all the time and I think for me they're the kind of people I want to spend my time with because they're the ones that not only have something to say but they mean what they say no I I needed to hear that because lately I've been just one of the wondering why uh just going through this entire Journey that it was it was difficult it was painful but it was also rewarding and and tremendously worthwhile that was the hardest part about making this just keeping my heart open because I really many points wanted to close it off because it when I said early on that I felt vulnerable while watching the movie that's what I meant that it's it's me just exposed and open and uh any anyone can just destroy that that that feeling um it it's hard to be hopeful and optimistic and and move through the world authentically like you like you said uh I hope that never goes away I will I will keep trying to maintain that um it is hard living like that for sure you're you're absolutely right but those are the people who I also want to spend my time within you're one of them so thank you very very much thank you it is hard but I hope that helps some to say that no I'm glad you have and it's very apparent that you have that your heart is left open in that sense but it means that you know there's a light in there that's going to shine and that's what attracts other people as well and really humanity is about connection and how can you connect to a closed person there's a quote I heard a long time ago which is like you know everyone's cool be warm oh wow yeah be warm and and Powerful it's very powerful isn't it and that's the way I much prefer to live it's far more rewarding it is difficult but you know it's the I think it's a much better way it's authentic I keep saying that word authentic because I mean it for you guys not just you but Mariam and ker as well the most authentic lovely people I've ever met but have powerful things to say because they're speaking from the heart like Mariam as well and all her PO poetry and all the work that she does with spoken stage incredible his a production man you know oh yes but he's great at that because he's authentic to yes and then they've got you at the point of the triangle which is you're you're showing your heart to the world how hard is that right I think courage is when you're afraid but you still move forward so I would like to look at it I always scared I am always scared um I hate being vulnerable I hate people looking at me and analyzing and and and trying to break down everything but and then also trying to just shut that light that you talking about the optimism that like oh this can be done in Pakistan and then just constantly stomping on it and saying no it can't but I think I'd like to think that I overcome that and I keep trying to move forward and that's where the courage part comes in because if you're if you're not feeling anything and you just have nothing but uh if you're not afraid if you're not nervous then it's apathy uh courage is the the fear and overcoming that fear and still moving forward yeah wow I hope uh I hope that helps helps some people but I I can you know in all honesty I can say you definitely have done that truly and and that's like when I first heard your guy's story it was the the hopeful optimism in me it's just like they're going through tough stuff but they're getting through it right and now you've released the film and it doesn't belong to you anymore your heart is out in the world but the person who you are now will be shown in the next one you know yes and and well I hopefully the next time yes God willing God willing inshah you know absolutely and thank you so much for your time us thank you so much for your time and thank you for um just setting me right with the things you've said and everyone is cool be warm I love that I will I will write that down well you are cool as well but thank you so much thank you thank you very much okay let me get [Music]