um David I'll let you introduce the panel from the IAB thank you so much for being here awesome thank you so my name is David Cohen I'm the CEO of IB it's great to be here great to see all of you uh we have got um a lot to cover in a short amount of time so I'm just going to do a quick uh round robin of intros so just go down the line just say uh your name and who you are and where you work I'm Lori Baker I work at infillion and I oversee all of our strategic Partnerships Dan Meridian VP of global Client Solutions at innovate I specialize in all of our Advanced products including measurement and creative Darren Sheriff Fox Corporation I work in Advanced TV and basically manage product and operations Dan Reese Chief growth officer for Televisa Univision Shane Ankeny president of Vos Media Group and I foolishly have been chosen to represent the agency by side all right awesome you guys did great so some of these we're going to do as jump balls and some of them I'm going to call on you okay so you have to pay attention the first one's gonna be a jump ball ready just as an icebreaker question uh for anyone what is the best CTV ad you have ever seen and why I'll jump um the best ad I've seen there's two that come to mind the first one is a personalization experience everybody knows the Share a Coke campaign uh we rendered users first names onto the bottle and it was in partnership with a publisher that was passing us that information so it was all opted in information but a beautiful beautiful execution full motion video the spokes models holding the bottle as she's moving it in Space the name is rendered onto the bottle and uh and the other was a a wonderful interactive experience that allowed the user to explore recipes download those to their phone via QR code great great experience so did you see those as a consumer or as someone that works at innovid okay I won't discount that anyone else have a uh yeah yeah I'll just add one also but um to answer your second question first have not seen it as a consumer um and I'll give a little plug to in Philly in but we did an incredible um opportunity with Amazon Alexa where the consumer could actually speak to the to the television through the remote and engage with the commercial that way so they could turn the lights on they could play with the fish in the fish tank um and so I think that that's um an awesome opportunity to start seeing more voice enabled uh come to the ecosystem but yeah okay one last one I'm gonna give a bias one as well seeing as the rest of us did uh the 2b1 during Super Bowl right the sitting on a remote I think everyone got freaked out by that one uh I I saw it as a consumer even though I work for the company uh but I remember where my remote was and I know nobody sat on it so I'm watching this and my wife was like what is going on did you change the channel and I'm like laughing to myself because I knew what was going to happen yeah I have to admit that was a good one that was really good yep all right so next question is another jump ball uh so in the battle between subscriptions and ads which there is at the IAB the A is for advertising so we like ad supported uh environments um do we think that that balance is going to change over time our consumer if you ask a thousand consumers what they prefer for ads and a defrayed cost or would they prefer paying more subscriptions where does it reside today and where do we think it goes in the future my my gut tells me that they would all prefer no ads but I think uh from a cost perspective everyone will appreciate ad Center or at least accept ads because it gives them opportunity to enjoy great programming and I think also it's so easy today to go in and out of services that you're going to continue to find everybody either paying for some and then pulling out and then going on an ad supported and pulling out so I think it's I mean I think that people are going to enjoy both and continue to use that can I do a quick follow-up actually um what do we think threatens that it well if we don't do X as an industry how can we screw that up change the ad experience to be a better ad experience because that's what's pulling people say is when you still have three minute ad pod traditional I don't want to be disrupted let me have how I consume this content either all that adds up ads up front adds in a different experience more often more um I think it's just the ad experience yeah I think to answer the first question I don't think it ever underestimate the cheapness of the American Consumer so if we give them an option that is less and will be ad supported then they'll that will continue to grow I think to answer the second question add load as long as we keep it down as soon as we could experience then I think it will be there will be plenty of consumers that will pick the ad supported option it's something that they've naturally grown up with have been you know viewing that way for for decades if the ad loads continue to or or rise to be an unhealthy experience and I think we could see it seems I think that the um from a business standpoint that you'll see the trends shift towards ad supported the balance it'll never be all but I think subscription alone is a tough business especially with all the competition and to run that is expensive and I think that you'll see you see Publishers looking for both revenue streams and just to build on what everybody is saying David and I I love that you positioned this from a consumer experience perspective and Lori and everybody built beautifully on it what we're seeing in as an ad server we serve about a billion Impressions a day across all the different uh across all different services and formats we see every brand every creative every platform and what we've been able to observe with our data is a shift from Q3 22 into q1 23 making sure I'm getting it right we've seen the shift of Impressions into ad supported from a user time spent perspective this is a user Choice users and platforms that were both ad supported and non-ad supported over time we've seen through that time period about a 25 increase in users spending time with ad supported content so from a data perspective 24.8 percent to be precise but we've seen that that move and consumers are choosing the ad supported model and I think uh with more inventory coming online and if we preserve the experience and we don't give them two minutes of ads or five minutes of ads for every you know X minute of content we're gonna we're gonna continue to see it we're gonna dabble in this a little bit more in a second but the the flip side of that is making money uh which I think most folks want to do so lighter ad load than certainly linear television how long can we keep that up for uh I mean or are we going to be able to charge 5x for CTV ads that we charge for linear ads that's a Lucky Strike extra for anyone that wants to take it um I'll take it only because I think that's what we're doing now with our guaranteed attention product as our core Truex product we're giving the consumer an opportunity to engage with one ad for 30 seconds and we'll take them right back to their programming when you can go to an Advertiser and say when you have a human opt-in one you have a guaranteed human interacting with your commercial and it's the an exclusive opportunity within a pod that's when advertisers are going to pay two three four five 10x what they're paying from a CPM perspective as the sole buy side representative Shane oh I'm looking at you oh yeah is that is it about Effectiveness not efficiency well always efficient Effectiveness is what I'd like to say um yeah I think I honestly I think it is I think it's just a matter of how much we can scale it uh or or if there is scale there it's always going to be that that's always going to be the question is always by Effectiveness as long as we can scale and as long as it doesn't get to be too outrageously expensive but yeah we can actually buy guaranteed Effectiveness why wouldn't you yeah okay cool we're going to skip to next question aphilian and innovid just announced a partnership can you guys talk a little bit about that and why are you excited about it let me just start because it totally follows up on Shane's comment the reason that we did it at infillion is to scale Innovation so um one of the challenges to scaling Innovation today is the demands on the publisher side where Innovation comes with software software takes engineering resources when innovit has an SDK and I have an SDK and brightline has an SDK and Nielsen has an SDK and comscore has an SDK the only way that we're going to evolve and innovate is if we can co-mingle technology and that's exactly we did we brought our technology together so any publisher that has innovids SDK can now render our Truex core value exchange ads so it's all about bringing scale so we can go back to Shane and all of the other by side and say we have massive scale that gives exclusivity and guaranteed engagement to your advertisers exactly I teed her up without even knowing her yeah well done that's a panel right here and on the end of its side yeah we're really excited about the partnership as well um you know from our perspective enabling these experiences making them easy to activate making them easy to create and then seamlessly flowing those tags into the partners where that inventory is made available and again you know where we sit in the ecosystem it's all about the enablement of these experiences and and bringing those to Consumers awesome so we talked about um light ad load uh we talked a little bit about consumer experience can we talk a little bit about that before we move on to the next topic which is attention um the consumer experience in CTV ad supported VOD um is wide-ranging as a consumer you watch it sometimes there's frequency issues with the same ads um I'm not going to answer my own question but what what how do you assess the consumer experience today and what are any of you doing to change that for the better so one of the things we're trying to try to focus on which I think it talks about attention and Effectiveness Etc is building out sort of custom and integrated creative so that it matches the uh the context and that is harder to scale but if you look at what goes on in Social for example there's a ton of much quicker turn much more integrated content the platform and I think that's going to help a lot of the different challenges that are faced by CT right now it's harder to scale from a reach frequency standpoint it's harder to measure but everything that you're trying to do that improves consumer experience generally is so we're focused on that and I think on CTV there's a really fabulous opportunity to mix data and targeting and getting the right thing to the right person with advertising that fits in the context that it's in I think just to build on that um the data targeting the ad relevancy CTV brings some of the sort of core digital pieces that you had in the linear streaming world now into the digital world and you you have some of these Advanced tools so whether it's addressability whether it is uh you know sharing uh log files after the fact for uh attribution on the end I think there's just so much more value for The Advertiser and then also from the consumer standpoint I think one of the big things too is discoverability right we're talking about all of these um different subscriber platforms or ad supported platforms but I think one of the key things when we talk about user experience is discoverability of content we have so much out there but you log into a screen and you just see like five six options and you have to scroll scroll scroll and then I get like I hear at home hey I don't know what to watch there's nothing to watch and I'm like there is so much content out there right so I think just making that part of the consumer experience sort of easy for the consumer to digest I think that's gonna you know continue to change things yeah I was gonna add I mean everybody has the experience of logging into a platform and scrolling through trying to find something and then an hour later you're still there and I think that's what uh that's what folks were talking about a couple years ago with CTV being this laid-back experience uh and I I disagree with that ultimately we're completely leaned in we're engaged we have the remote in our hand so by enabling these interactive experiences you're presenting an option to a consumer to have a better ad experience overall um and it it benefits from what everyone else is saying in terms of this is where digital has finally begun to you know impact what's happening on the big screen in the television for so many years the linear experience has influenced the digital experience and now we're seeing whether it's measurement whether it's creative experience whether it's interactivity all of what we've been doing for years and years and digital is now happening on the big screen it's a really really exciting time cool awesome there's some Wizard of Oz Vibes every so often with the wind here isn't it good all right uh we'll take that though other than the heat so Shane this is for you um consumer attention so on the spectrum of opportunity to see on one side business outcome measurement on the other side attention is probably somewhere in the middle um instead of getting into a whole debate which we'll talk about a little bit around measurement versus currency where do you look what signals do you look for in terms of determining where you find the best quality attention or said another way what's the best environment for Quality attention in your mind well I guess for first um I'd probably put a 10 a little bit on the writer the right side a little closer to business outcomes we feel like it's it's an even better surrogate for the business outcomes um and thank goodness we actually released yesterday our meaningful ad unit so we're all about meaningful media we think that money spent in media that is Meaningful to the audience is a better investment for our clients so what better gauge of meaningfulness than attention so we literally just announced yesterday thank goodness the meaningful ad unit with Adelaide and the whole metric around attention and we are now embedding it in all of our planning tools all of our partner selection tools for our teams to be able to identify best best places best Partners best availability of uh in media of where consumers attention is greatest so for us it's hugely hugely important we've been doing it for a while now we actually have an actual unit an actual measurement that we've embedded in all of our tools so for us it's it's hugely important and again a better better surrogate than opportunity to see or even reach and some of the others because it really gets to actually a consumer that is paying attention to our ads yeah we're working at IAB on um standardizing for lack of a better term what attention means because as you say it and if someone else says it actually means different things so we have a whole task force that's working on that so that's super exciting and hopefully we'll get some good progress soon from what we hear as we talked about buyers and sellers there are a lot of buy side folks who are interested in moving into kind of currency attention as a currency um and on the sell side uh not so much not not as many elated sellers because there's stuff that they can't control in that equation and I know you're going to talk about what you're doing creative is a huge component of driving attention engagement and business results and it's out of your control I open it up as a jump ball what do you guys think about that how do we solve that I would just start with let's separate outcomes from attention because I think that that's the most important thing is sell side we can't get outcomes but to build a creative that draws and captures consumers attention and gets them to engage with you um so I mean that's that's where I think we as long as we can separate those kind of pieces maybe we can find a happy medium between the cell and the buy side others I mean I think it's interesting because on the publisher side you you let's say in an hour you've got 48 minutes of attention that you're developing so I think with a hand in the creative or help I know that I can create things that people will engage with for Brands it's challenging to sell that but you know the talent and the context all makes a huge difference in terms of intention there's it's not just about the publisher making all the ads that doesn't make sense but there are things that in Partnership Publishers and advertisers can do to make sure the ads around it the right way even if it's six seconds or a few seconds yeah I completely agree I think it's a it's a partnership between everyone the publisher the seller the technology provider to make sure that you know you're providing that best experience and then you're gaining their attention no person can do it all and let's not forget it's difficult so we can measure everything so if an Advertiser is interested in attention then we can give them that metric if they're interested in engagement we can give them that metric so you know uh depending on the client and the use case and the kpi and the inventory and all of the dimensions that make up a successful campaign the availability of that data has to be there and I think that's the that's where we sit in terms of the you know how how we want to provide value to everyone in the on on the panel and you know who we all represent ultimately so I'm being corrected which is fine um are we are we all okay with with attention as a currency I have a question for you what's the timeline on the task force because I think everyone's philosophically okay with attention as a currency and they're all defining it differently in their own brains um as you can imagine when you get a lot we had 140 people on the first call we had 110 on the one that was just recent getting everyone to agree on anything is difficult um this year is the is the plan hopefully it'll be done this year I can give you an out um attention is currency sure but engagement as in currency reach frequency is currency absolutely all of the above I think currency is not going to be a one-size-fits-all thing I think it's going to be a multi-currency environment and so if you want attention great let's give you attention if you want reach frequency outcomes if you want uh you know engagement those are all those are all valuable metrics that I think make up the banner term measurement and you know currency will be ever revolving we're not going to be in a place where there's one currency anymore I think attention is too abstract like it's attention to me is going to be very different than attention to PNG so it's going to have to be Broad and it's going to have to be defined by the specific campaign Advertiser publisher Etc you ever wanted to be an actual currency you're going to have to agree on a definition totally yep all right we'll talk about additive add Innovation for a second uh what features within interactive ads QR codes quizzes voice control what's the best way of engaging consumers we've found at least that on in Philly and that anything playable drives engagement so quizzes and polls and the question I think that's still out there is is scanning a QR code interaction is that I mean is that considered interaction maybe but yeah we have our data has shown that you know that quizzes and playables and kind of is Right winning right now anyone else I mean I think the QR code is has been really strong in part because the I know we're going to talk about shoppability but that that process is a very different by platform and the QR code is almost like the lowest common denominator but I think it's just taken a long time for Consumer Behavior to catch up and um I'm not sure why I think maybe it was menus in covid and everyone had this greasy plastic Cube that we also touched instead of a paper menu but for whatever reason QR codes are are very effective for us they're a little more respective of the consumer Journey because I think people can hold on to them and not buy right away um which is I think how people want to they want to try something out and look at it so that's actually been really effective for us I think one quick thing to your point the playable ones you know people just get sucked into some sort of poll some sort of quiz uh you know they don't want to interact with the ad they're like I know the answer to that and they typically do interact one thing we do see with QR codes is uh making sure that QR code is available throughout the entire ad uh too often they show up at the last five seconds and now I'm stumbling find my phone and by time uh you know I I can scan it it's already gone so really just looking at the entire customer experience for that ad and making sure that you're doing the best to provide and gather the metric that you're looking for there yeah I would also say it also depends on device and if we're thinking about CTV consumer it's going to take some time to get soon members adopting to the fact that everyone has a phone in their hand but they may not have the remote remote control in their hand and so some playables require the tell the device remote control to engage if it's QR code you're always going to have your phone it's a lot easier to oh I've got it right here so I do think that that consumer adoption and getting the consumer with as an industry even on one place can the telephone control your channels and everything then but yeah we just need the the consumer to to adopt but also back to my point respect that yes they have their phone but they're not necessarily engaged with the the commercial yet right so just because they have their phone doesn't don't mean they stop looking at Instagram quickly to get it right so you have to have that engaging experience and once again that QR code available the entire time and dual stream you're seeing a lot more so all of a sudden a QR code shows up on the TV they have their phone they scan it we have playables now mobile device while the commercial is happening so you can get that dual screen experience with a consumer as well okay we're gonna so someone's talked about uh Commerce and shoppability so endemic definitely kicks kick-started uh QR codes um it also changed Commerce probably forever we've been talking about buying Jennifer Aniston's sweater for about 20 years uh from from friends we had a good pre-call conversation about this so um what's the the leap between inspiration and shopping cart in the living room there are those that say we're almost there others are saying no we're not going to be buying stuff on your big screen in your in your home what do you guys think what's the future of shoppability in the living room yes well there's a there's certain moments when that may happen to certain types of purchases but I think um consumers tend to want to take their time right if you social is actually really interesting you'll scroll through the same Carousel five or six times look at the same pair of shoes a couple times before you actually buy the thing so I think we're putting too much pressure on Jennifer Anderson's sweater um I think that that might get bought but it might get bought at a later time and we need to sort of build for that anyone have a complimentary or different thought I mean from shoppability in the TV I've Seen On TV is not new been around for years and years and years and I think one of the things that I mentioned earlier was the idea that digital has influenced linear TV rather than the other way around in this case and consumers are used to buying things on their phone I mean I know you you just mentioned you know you get a carousel you start through it you see it you expose to it several times eventually that purchase happens it's not going to be very different and we are seeing you know platforms that are enabling add to cart functionality directly from ad units so you're not going to a product landing page you're putting that item directly in your cart via a QR code the thing to remember about QR codes is anything that you can do with a URL you can do with a QR code so if that's executing an API call to add something to your cart shortens that path to purchase if it's if it's uh you know saving something for later all of those things can be executed with the QR code it doesn't just have to be a product landing page and I think that's really the thing that's exciting about what we're seeing in the shoppable CTV space got it okay what other questions that I ask every interviewee interview for a job throughout my career because we're in a business that is very very into over sensationalizing and over hyping something uh is what do you believe is over hyped these days and it's a great stumper question uh but you knew you knew that question was coming so it's not a stumper what do you guys think is overhyped in the video ecosystem these days I'll give it a shot okay I I think that we've decided that certain things are fixed that aren't fixed um and so it's a it's not a it's not the metaverse that's over hyped too but that's not necessarily CTV um but I think that the the frequency cap issue which is not so much I think on the publisher side we fixed the frequency cap issue but we can't always control it because you have buy-in coming in from multiple channels so I think as a consumer uh I think it's over hyped that we've solved that problem for the consumer because there's there's the same ad is being placed by multiple places sometimes in the same pod for the same reasons by different buyers um and that's going to take a little while to work through but that's my best stab at overhead I like it nice someone else give it a whirl singular platform currency sorry singular metric currency okay I think as a broadcaster here uh that TV is dead right I think TV is we just need to look at it as the evolution of live linear streaming just moving to CTV and from a user perspective they turn on their TV and they don't care if it's their cable box or they go to an app they still want to see that live sporting event live news whatever it may be linear live TV is not dead okay I'm gonna give you guys a c plus on that question actually hire any of us none of us okay the flip side is what do you bullish on let's do everyone let's go down the line what are you excited about over the next 12 to 24 months we'll start here let's start with me um Innovation I I mean that's like I anything other than a 30 second commercial data Mobility how fast the data can move from platform to platform to to make things more personal or Interactive I would say audience data audience data leads to information leads to action I would say the combination of content and commerce and creating places on PTV or linear where consumers can discover things that they might want to buy and partnering with brands that do that I'd say brand experiences might be off topic for this one but I just feel like maybe building off what you said it's it's how can we make sure that everything a brand does communicates what the brand is and there's so many more options and abilities to do that now that to me is what I'm foolish on now that was crisp that was an a that was excellent very well done all right so we're going to do we've got three more questions um and then if anyone has any can we take questions from the audience okay but anyone has questions here please uh think those through um I'm gonna give everyone a magic wand and you're gonna wave that magic one you're going to change anything you want about the industry today that's a jump ball who waves their magic wand what do we change add pods expand um I I think the concept of programming today where every you know four minutes five minutes six minutes you have to stop and spend you know a minute or three minutes watching commercials we have to create a different commercial experience in this new digital economy it just it can't look like old linear commercial modeling I love that answer okay anyone else I would look for well if we talk about CTV and we talk about it as that's kind of merger between the best of linear and the best of digital we're really talking about digital 1-0 and basic interactivity and things like that a little bit more of the social media thinking coming into CTV the liking the sharing the um full video which I think is really interesting the easy edit and quick creative all those things I think should should be thought about okay cool we're gonna we're gonna play a game uh second to last oh so I'm so sorry so sorry Lori took my answer seriously I'm sorry but we build on it nice yes yes we keep feeding each other take this on the road this panel No Doubt um no I just I I do want to build on it because I feel like we keep trying to apply old models to New Media and it drives me nuts and it's kind of like when you first think about mobile and it was basically a big giant uh you know a internet page website on your phone and you're trying to scroll around and it's a horrible experience and it's a little bit surely tried to figure we ultimately figured it out kinda we still are applying the old model so ad pods perfect example that's how we did it for decades in linear television doesn't mean that is how we could or certainly should do it today and so for me I want us to figure out what an actual user experience is that still enables Brands to connect with consumers don't get me wrong but it doesn't have to be in the content Interruption content Interruption sort of model amen nice like that build well done all right we're gonna get back to our game so we're gonna do uh what I like to call word association this is going to test our metal I think we're going to go up and down the line I'm going to give you a word or phrase and you're going to say the immediate thing that comes to mind okay one word first word is or first thing I'm going to say is generative AI we'll start at the end Mr Havas Game Changer hyphenated nice double-edged hyphenated innovative a tool progress okay currency start here go back down attention multiple agreed there's no benefit to being the fourth person in life that's a sentence I'll go with multiple money AI oh I said that right premium video right back there premium video quality valuable entertainment valuable long form measurement yes you currency transformative value slow Wild West frequency management chain storytelling then confusing scale crucial crucial okay that wasn't great sustainability green non-negotiable Imports important hyphenated I just seconded because that's what I do sometimes [Laughter] it's critical Jane Sports premium okay Fox streaming oh my God can I add one yes bedding okay good I got two more Creator economy Creator economy future growing confusing vibrators future okay and last one can Shane windy I still can't get away from hot it's gonna happen in about an hour valuable debaterous [Laughter] I was doing homework important nice I'd give that a B plus that was pretty good all right nice well John all right last question and then if anyone has any questions in the audience we're going to each end with a bold prediction for CTV in the coming year why don't we start here no ad pods that's a bold prediction okay consumers have chosen already uh I think at this point it's going to be we're going to see Legacy linear TV brands like in the cpg in the automotive space shift more Impressions into CTV than in linear okay I mean I think growth oh we skipped oh I didn't know if we were going online I mean it's a growth engine it is it is a a growing part of the media ecosystem um and linear is is is balanced per se um so I think there's going to be a lot of attention on it and it's gonna it's gonna grow fast and um you'll see a lot more experimentation I'm just gonna say Evolution right uh once again as a broadcaster CTV is the evolution of TV viewing TV consumption uh users have tuned in you continue to buy Smart TVs this is what they want we have to listen and we have to continue providing that great experience bold prediction um Apple buys Disney or big Tech buys Legacy content company I think consolidation which would have been my answer um is inevitable I think there's lots and lots of uh companies out there and a lot of complexity and I think that that is probably true if you look at the financial markets that's probably a likely outcome anyone have any questions yes how you doing Ken weiner CTO at gum gum I have a question about QR codes um you guys were talking about QR code engagement is there the name for the metric for how many scans for how many options uh that you see on QR codes and also what would you say is a typical uh value or range of values for that metric for what you need for your average are we call are we considering it interaction a rate an interaction rate engagement rate scan rate interaction rate engagement rate our metrics that you can use scan rates probably the one you're looking for in terms of uh like the an analogous to like a click on an ad or a click-through rate um with engagement rate our May benchmarks report has metrics on the overall performance aggregated across you know billions of Impressions that we've served through the year we see engagement rate for um for interactive creative choice-based formats to be about six higher than parole that's engagement rates we're seeing around 17 higher than inner standard right and what about the number for scan rate scan it's in the benchmarks report I don't have it on me off the top of my head unfortunately anyone else thank you thank you there's a there's a part of this which is um on the Commerce front right so there's a part of this around understanding from The Advertiser as a publisher what happened after things went into the advertiser land which I think is probably if you want to do more complex Partnerships um it's probably going to have to happen over the next couple of years first to really help uh across in the Commerce space yeah if we talk about partnership that data has to come back for us uh really truly see what was effective and continue building on that partnership completely agree yeah and representing that side of it I I completely agree it's incumbent on us slash our clients to be able to make that those data available completely agree not always the case I had a question around attention especially with the partnership announcement this morning um oftentimes when I'm watching TV I'm also on my phone my fiance is incredibly ADHD and is also on his uh iPad watching numerous tick tocks but he's always listening so he is catching everything that's going on in the TV even though he hasn't looked up from his iPad in 10 minutes and he has an earpod in his ear is that something you're thinking about given gen Z and that generation they're able to multitask even faster than me as a millennial is and I also think there's a rise in people that recognize that they have ADHD and that that actually is a better way for them to pay attention when they're multitasking versus trying to focus on one thing yeah you actually took took the first part of my answer because I was going to say as we get into current and future Generations it becomes multitasking is a natural state of existence it's actually it's a preferred state of existence so everything we're we're contemplating which is why I feel like ultimately even though I'm very proud of us for for making this announcement and trying to lead the way um I think ultimately we need to arrive at a definition that works for everybody especially if we get it to the level of currency there's no question you have to have an agreed upon definition but all of those factors factor in so it's something that we are thinking about or something that we tried to factor in but you know again developments so we're at the nascent stage developments have to happen you know we're held accountable by by the advertisers and should be and right now the priority is on I think getting the consumer's attention entirely on the advertiser's message best possible that's it I think there's room um and people do interesting things it's CTV I mean I think the the YouTube TV does an interesting job with sound bites you know when they're when they have slate or whatever they're getting people's attention with things that are abnormal to be the Super Bowl Etc um so I think it can go both ways and again if you st if we start to rethink the model and not apply old ways to New Media I think that will help us even more because again we keep trying to well how do we make the ad interruption maybe it shouldn't be an ad Interruption like so I think the more we can expand our minds in that way it's going to help us solve these other problems as well please join me in thanking my panel thank you very much thank you thank you