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That's www.giftedlearninglab.com slash power. Thanks for hanging around. And now we're jumping back in. Yeah. So it is like a couple of days before Thanksgiving.
It's like super dreary and raining outside here in Asheville and you're sick and the holidays are coming up. So. I think we wanted to talk about at least a lot of the major American holidays are coming up.
So I think we want to talk about just neurodivergence and holidays and how to navigate them and how to protect yourself and safeguard your own energy and mental well-being. Absolutely. Yeah, it's complex, isn't it?
It's hard. I think regardless of whether you are neurodivergent or typical, I think the holidays are hard for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. And I think they can bring up a lot of emotion.
I think they can bring up a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of dread. I think they bring up a lot of almost like for those of you who are high maskers having to perform or show up a certain way and act as if like you feel a certain way about being there. So, yeah, I think.
Absolutely. And then the guilt of feeling a certain way about being there. Like.
if you don't enjoy it but all of the shoulds i should enjoy this this yeah yeah the combination of like the cultural pressure of like this is the happiest time of year like time to connect with family and xyz and then the internal experience if that's not your experience yeah yeah and i think it's further complicated when you might you know be neurodivergent and you might be struggling internally if you especially have not discussed outwardly or publicly with family friends colleagues whoever you might spend holiday time with And I also think there's complications that may arise if you are unmasking publicly at a holiday event or if you recently talked about it publicly and then your family or friends or whoever want to ask a million questions about your experiences. It feels like hell. Yeah, like to have private conversations, but not in a private setting.
Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah.
So. I want to talk about strategies. I want to validate those of you who are like, I hate the holiday season in general.
I don't participate. I don't have people to spend time with. I don't look forward to them.
Society throws this message in our faces of how we're supposed to perform and how we're supposed to feel. So I get that. And I'm definitely one of those people.
I don't enjoy the holiday season. Never have, never will. Don't look forward to it.
Dread it. Can't wait till it's over. How about you?
I actually like it. Okay. But I haven't always, you already talked about that, I know. I haven't always liked it. But I think in the last few years, so I definitely didn't like it before.
In the last few years, once we've understand our family and our family needs, we've taken it pretty serious to have a cozy, comfortable holiday season, the four of us. So there's things kind of actually slowed down. No, that's definitely not always been the case. I think discovery and we used to travel and that was horrific.
That was so terrible. I do not recommend traveling while neurodivergent with neurodivergent children during holiday season. So I don't enjoy to like this week in the U S is, is Thanksgiving for folks who. still celebrate that holiday that I think we should probably stop celebrating. That's another episode, but like that I've always, always disliked.
Cause it's like, you go into a room, there's lots of people. It's kind of fancy. There's a lot of smells that like, I've always really disliked that holiday. But again, this family would like the four of us are going to hang out and partly complicating factors. which most people just aren't thinking about anymore but like exposure like to go to a large family gathering covid when i get it and my daughter gets it it knocks us out like and so i'm still thinking about exposure which a lot of folks i realize aren't but so there's that it's a good point you know because i know you've been battling long covid so for those who you know we did that episode on chronic health and and just um illness in general with mel and i think that's another factor yeah this i mean this episode is not going to come out before thanksgiving but like talk about sensory hell walking into a passive busy room with like all the smells all the all the textures like all the people it can it feels it can be so overwhelming so quickly and i myself am also looking forward to just being at home with my wife my dad's coming up today and that is it And we are not doing anything.
And that feels pretty perfect to me. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I mean, so I think when we can lean into the comfort of the season, it can be nice. Like for Christmas season, you know, I love the smell of pine or fir or whatever that fresh tree smell is. I love the twinkly lights, not the bright lights.
I love hot chocolate and like warm, fuzzy blankets. So I think. When I can lean into the smallness of the holiday and release the pressures of making it big, I've actually been able to enjoy this season.
But most people can't release those pressures of the big. And I definitely didn't enjoy it before I could do that. Yeah, I agree with you.
I myself don't sell, you know, I sell Bird Christmas, but like it's only because my wife does. I'm Jewish. by like not by religion but by ancestry so I don't really I have an air on the side of like not giving a shit about any of it it feels so commercialized like all around for me it's very much like my autistic side where I'm like this feels wrong this feels like black and white to me I don't enjoy any of this it feels like what's the word I'm looking for not commercial again that's what I already said but if we're you It feels so capitalist, you know, like the whole cycle of it.
So like for me. I just want it to be over. I know my wife enjoys it. So I think that's another challenge when we've talked about cross-neurotype partnerships and different needs in general as human beings, like trying to show up for the, if you do have a partner or family who want to participate, who are looking for things and then trying to figure out like, how do I get myself there or at least able to be there? So this is kind of divergent, but are you running a Black Friday sale?
Because you're a business owner. I am not. I hate Black Friday sales too.
I'm just like, I can't do it. What do I do? Like a couple hundred dollars off a retreat registration or like, it's just not for me.
Yeah. No, I always like, it's so interesting. Speaking of the commodification of this time of year, I always feel so torn of everyone in entrepreneur land is like, you should be prepping for Black Friday for months. I'm like, that just feels, I don't know. I don't have good feelings about it.
I think I'm going to put together like a neurodivergent gift guide. But yeah, it's a weird thing as a business owner, the commodification of this season of like, do you lean into that? Do you just like, no, no. I'm one of those people that like, if it's like everyone tells me I'm supposed to be doing something, I'm not going to. That's just always who I am.
I didn't watch Game of Thrones for years because everyone was like, you have to watch this show. It's amazing. And I'm like, no, this is stupid. And then all of a sudden I've watched it 60 times on repeat.
But yeah, that's been my mentality around basically everything, despite whether it impacts me negatively as a business owner or not. Yeah. Yeah. No, I like that. I like that.
So yeah, commodification, which I mean, that can be a stress in the holidays, right? That just the financial aspect for people. I think family, like if anyone has like, if anyone has a dysfunctional family, which most of us to some extent do, like the holidays can be hard. If anyone's lost someone, like we talked about grief a couple months ago, holidays can be excruciating. The sensory aspect, the shoulds, like, yeah, what if we miss?
There's a lot of reasons. Or if you're like struggling with sobriety or if you're struggling with pain. substance use in general the holidays are typically a time where that's going to ramp up quite a bit yeah whether it be for coping um there like whether it be for coping whether it be through navigating loneliness or feelings of i don't feel connected to this or like i don't belong um so you're going to see a lot of that as well absolutely absolutely yeah for sure for sure Wondering about like, and you know, also holidays tend to come with like, if you're working right for an employer, holiday parties and get together, gathering situations where you may have to really, you know, figure out a way to either manage that energy and that boundary and that sensory overload and that social expectation for your job's sake.
Or you may decide like, I can't participate in this. And does that. I have ramifications for my career or for my coworkers and colleagues and my relationships. Yeah, absolutely.
And work, gosh, yeah, work, social events can be really complex to begin with for autistic people because the context shift and the rule shift, but it's not clear. It's like, okay, so at work, we don't talk about personal things, but then when we have a holiday party, we do, but like, it's still. limited like it's i think in general those work social events are really complicated to navigate yeah yeah absolutely and you're talking about small talk hell once again um never looked forward to those always found reasons or excuses to try to get out of that so i think it's important to also think about like okay we're talking about what the holidays can bring up some people may have good associations some negative etc but boundary setting ways to manage some of the stress and anxiety as you're going into a season where you're supposed to feel happy and joyous and connected that's right yeah yeah because it makes you if you're feeling disconnected it makes it all the more apparent yeah absolutely and i think it feels for me like oh what's wrong with you well how come it's you know how come you don't look forward to three months of fucking christmas music going on and orders that you go to to go shopping i'm just like looking forward to reese's changing the trees and then eggs and like all the seasonal reeses.
I'm real excited about that. But boundary setting wise, I think it's important to have some strategies so that you can Kind of try to set boundaries with family and friends and colleagues as you're going into a couple of months stretch where you really want to protect your energy. You really want to sensory. You really maybe don't want to have certain demands placed upon you. So I think it's important to think about strategies and techniques where you can at least have some of that in place.
You know, I know it's not always possible for you to say, like, I'm not going to participate in this, but. to the best of our abilities to have some strategies i think would be um the ideal yeah absolutely and some of it like back to um cross neurotype relationships some of it might come back to strategies and like if someone's partnered with their partner because um i think those are sometimes the hardest conversations if like one partner really wants to travel to see their family but traveling is really hard for the other um Or just in general, one partner might want to be doing a lot of holiday events outside the home. Well, that's hard for the other partner.
So I think starting conversations in that partnership of someone's partner is probably really crucial, especially if like one's extroverted and one's introverted or, you know, one likes to be out of the home more. Yeah, absolutely. I think start those conversations. You know, obviously we're talking like this is going to release. probably sometime in December.
But going into 2024, start those conversations early next year to be proactive in that communication. Because for us, I've talked about my relationship on here before. My wife has a very large family. They all get together for the holidays.
They love it. She looks forward to it. But we've had this agreement where for Thanksgiving week, we won't go anywhere.
We won't go to her family's. We won't go to all the gatherings. But like for Christmas, we'll go for the day so she can see our nieces and nephews unwrapped presents.
And like for me, that's a concession I'm totally willing to make. It also allows me to like conserve that energy a little bit more than I had to be prepared to be on the go all the time. Absolutely.
So yeah, like you all have found a compromise that works for you too. Yeah. Yeah.
I think compromise, the other word that comes around is differentiation. Like I think there's this weird idea that. Couples always have to do things together.
Like one couple can like one. I get that it's not ideal not to maybe spend the holidays together, but like one person can travel without the other. One person can go to an event without the other.
Yeah, there might be questions, but like we don't have to do everything together just to co-partner. And I think sometimes we forget that. I feel like you've mentioned this like on 10 different episodes now. That exact.
like sentiment of couples do not have to do everything together so that could be a whole freaking series i think of autistic and or just cross neurotype partnerships and neurodivergent partnerships but um yeah i agree 100 and finding that compromise finding that balance and yeah there might be some conversations to navigate but i do think it's probably in the long run better off for everyone all around to that agreement for sure yeah yeah you And then I've mentioned this on the podcast before too, but like I like to overlay pacing systems and a pacing system is just like any system that helps you think through how to pace your activity with like a value system. So for me and for like a lot of neurodivergent parents, yeah, I'm pretty fine not seeing my family during the holidays, but I want my kids to have memories with their cousins. So like, that's a high value for me.
So I'd, maybe this is confusing because I use like the light system for both. Like that's a green light value. Like that's a high value and like a red light activity for me. Like it takes a ton of energy, but it's like I intentionally make that choice and similar for you to like go see your wife's family.
So I think also thinking through both like energy expenditure, but also values. And then figuring like spending your red light energy expenditures on green light values. Like you don't want to be spending red light energy on like low value things.
That's just not a good use of our energy expenditure. Yeah. So then again, figuring out like what can we drop during the holiday season that's not a high value, but perhaps a high energy cost.
Agreed. A hundred percent. That's a great way of looking at it. And I think prioritizing and it's kind of doing that cost benefit analysis, right?
this is worth it to me, but I know it's also going to drain me. So just having to put the tools in place to mentally prepare for that and then support your nervous system and your sensory system afterwards however you need to. I think the one thing that I'm thinking about holiday related, I don't know why, maybe it's just my own dysfunction in family systems, but it's like uncomfortable conversations at the dinner table. And I think for those people who are like, you know, whether it's... you're new to your diagnosis and you're talking about it publicly there might be some scrutiny there might be questions there might be like maybe even some ableism that comes up and and we just did an rs series so hell we certainly can create a whole rsd at these situations so maybe just creating some like conversational cue cards for yourself too of like you know or some scripts or things like that that can be helpful for you as well to set those boundaries Yeah, I think having exit scripts kind of pre-thought out or boundary scripts is so helpful.
Like, actually, I don't want to talk about that here. If you want to talk about that one-on-one, if that's true, if you're happy to talk one-on-one. But having thought through, yeah, how to kind of get out of those sticky situations beforehand can be really helpful. Yeah.
Do you have any, like, go-to, like, well-phrased sentences of... That kind of shuts down a conversation. I've always been good at like saying like, okay, if this conversation is becoming uncomfortable, how can we switch the conversation to something that everyone's interested in talking about? And that's usually like, oh, like, let's talk about the football game that's on TV right now. Or like, let's talk about whatever else and bring the conversation away from the attention on you and back to something that feels more neutral.
or more common ground for everybody that everyone can participate in it also like takes the pressure off of feeling like the spotlight is just like shining on me and i have now to like to respond or communicate or participate yeah yeah yeah okay i had oh go ahead oh good no go ahead i'm kind of changing gears so i just have the avoidance strategy of just not going so like that's so yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking there, like, I don't really have that experience of avoiding awkward things.
Cause I, what I do is I shut down when I'm in large sound groups. So like, and it's interesting, my, my dad who, you know, we've been talking a lot about, he's also a psychologist. So we've been talking a lot about my neurodivergence the last few years who like, yeah, I'll look over at the table and it's like, it's like you're just not there.
So I shut down, which like, then I just am kind of listening to everyone else's conversation. And it's a group conversations are really hard for me, which is sometimes evidenced in this podcast. So I just get really quiet, shut down. What I didn't realize it.
And it's interesting. My spouse, he's still like, are you okay? Again, this was pre-diagnosis and he'd worry about me. I was just like, okay, she's in her little shutdown mode.
But what I didn't realize. I think this is perhaps helpful for people was, you know, that is a stress state and the body needs to release that the body needs to complete the stress cycle. When I would go home back when I was drinking, speaking of like drinking holiday season, I would often be like, I need a drink, like after I got home.
And now looking back, it's like, okay, my body was in this kind of frozen, immobilized stress state, looking for a way to get out of that stress cycle. That's turns out a spoiler. That's not a great way to actually complete the stress cycle. But just to know, like, even if you're not feeling anxious and agitated, if you're feeling shut down, like when you're done with those events, your body still needs to release that, whether it's like going on a really grounding walk in the cool air or like taking a gentle bath, like your body needs to do something with that. And I think that's just a helpful thing for people to be aware of during the holiday season.
Absolutely. 100%. I tend to do that too in group conversations around like a dinner table or something when multiple people are talking at once where I'm like kind of doing this internally and I can't really like participate. Then I start to shut down and then I become really quiet. So, yes, that stress state is...
definitely real so pay attention to that for yourselves and just kind of monitor that there may not be something you can do in the immediate sea of like I can release this right now but just like Megan said the great strategies when you are out of that environment being able to get that stress out of the body because you certainly don't want that to build up and just cause you know complications or issues and taking breaks like if someone's spending a long day somewhere like can you get outside if um you know it is outside less since you're overwhelming but like the cool the cool air the like just getting fresh air again if your quality is fresh um getting kind of out of because i think part of it is being in a in a like enclosed space with lots of bodies that i i know that's part of what's hard for me so taking breaks sensory breaks throughout the day um so again so that that stress kind of has a chance to come down so it's not just building building building all day yeah i was always the person that'd be like volunteering to go run errands you know if like yeah yeah hey does anyone can anyone go pick this thing up yep sure i'll go do it like let me get the hell out of here um so yeah putting yourself into situations like that where you can take a break get outside i think that's a great reminder because like a lot of us want connection right and it goes back to i don't know that we'll release it in this order but last week we did we recorded on attachment and belonging and we want it a lot of us it's just well i'll speak for me like i want it it's just hard for me so i think finding ways same for me it's like okay if i can do the dishes if i can find a way to stay busy if i can run an errand Are there ways to feel connected to whatever is happening, whether it's with the family or the friend group, but in a way that is more tolerable? So I love that you become the Aaron person. Always. I do that now. Even in retreat settings, when I have my partner there, I'm like, yeah, I'll go get the food.
I'll go do the thing. So I can get to it. I can kind of take a... like a test on myself like where am i at just kind of gauge it and reset a little bit to my best of my ability and that's always been pretty useful so just trying to do more of that stuff and like i remember when i was living in new york before i moved to north carolina like dating someone whose parents were divorced my parents were divorced having to go to four different places in one day and like oh my gosh whoa put on the show of like oh be here and like can't wait to spend this couple of hours.
And I just remember how horribly exhausting all of that was. So yeah, just trying to find ways for you all to ground, regulate, sensory soothe, take breaks, set boundaries, all the things that work for you. I would unconnect. Because I think part of what can be painful about the season for us is sometimes like we're seeing other people connect or we're at least seeing on social media the illusion of people connecting.
And even in the movies, the holiday movies, like a lot of them are very connection focused. So finding ways that I think help us feel deeply connected to people in our lives during the season. I think that could be in the kind of holiday self-care bucket if we were putting together a little holiday self-care toolkit.
Absolutely. Agree. A hundred percent.
I think connection is paramount and just finding those ways to connect with one or two people that you can in whichever way that you can. Super important. Yeah. Yeah.
I will say like the, you know, theme of like. receiving gifts and gift giving always been a struggle for me but my wife's like doing like special interest like gift giving for me and it was changed the way i receive things so drastically like opening something up and being like oh thank you i don't know how to react to this to actually like being pretty genuinely excited or content with like some of that stuff so That's been a nice thing to have that shift to because I myself like struggle when my reaction isn't what the other person wants it to be. Oh, gosh.
Yeah, that could be a whole thing. Like, yeah, opening gifts in front of people. It's awkward because there's like this expectation and like a lot of us don't hide our faces very well.
Like if it's if we're disappointed. I remember early Christmas, I had like a response and I was a kid, but I had a response to my aunt. gave me.
And I very much remember the, like, we don't do that. But now I like, I hate opening gifts in front of people. I get so awkward.
Yeah. Gift giving feels really inefficient to me, especially, again, in my partnership. We share the same funds.
Right. So I'm like, why would we gamble giving so many money on something that we don't know if you'll like? So we actually just buy our own gifts, but then wrap them for each other, which I think is so much more efficient. Yeah, I like that strategy.
Or logical. Not efficient, logical. That is very logical, yeah. Yeah, we share a joint bank account. So whatever I'm buying you is coming out of the same money, right?
So don't you want to like it? Why would we risk spending money on something that you're not going to like? Yeah, and you don't want to hurt the other person's feelings, especially if you care about them. So you're like, fuck, I hate this gift, but I don't know how to react to this. Yeah, it's a whole thing.
Again, it's just holidays are complicated. Weird timing, for sure. Yeah.
And then like, don't, I don't even want to get started on the idea of like, okay, it's about to be the new year. So new year, new you like into place. Like, yeah. And I can only start them January one, 2024. I can't start them anytime other than that.
And if I don't magical day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Talk about logic. Like, yeah, I do. I do. Okay. So actually my, yeah, I actually do kind of.
also enjoy the like yeah it's my adhd right like i love challenges i love novelty so i do kind of get excited about new year resolutions but i feel embarrassed about it because i know i know the issues with it um but i do actually kind of get excited about like a point to reflect on the last year and a point to like intention like kind of set intentions of like what do i want this next year to look like what do i want the rhythms and the habits to be um you So again, talk about commodification. I don't love that, all that happens around that. But I do like the invitation to pause and reflect.
I agree. I love the pausing and the reflection. I love timelines in general. Like I like kind of looking back and zooming out a bit because I don't feel a sense of like contentment or pride or satisfaction or presence a lot of times in my day-to-day. So to zoom out, it's like...
This feels good. Like it's feels nice to be able to like put things in linear order too. But yeah, I don't love the like, okay, it's the new year and now I'm going to change everything about me and I'm going to do these new things.
Like that's why gym memberships last for like a week and then nobody ever goes back. And it's just, I don't know. It's one of those things. I sound really cynical today and I just realized I just hate the holiday season. That's just my reality.
You're allowed to have that. I mean, I think that's actually one of the tips I give is like release any expectations about like how you should feel about the season, right? Whether it's you should like it or like, and I think that's perhaps one of the most starting helpful points is just releasing any expectations we have about how we should experience this season.
Absolutely. So you're modeling that. Well done. Yeah, I'm just hearing myself out loud. I'm like, I hate that.
That really bothers me. Well, maybe you're hearing it because I'm usually with you with all the cynicism. And today I'm countering.
I'm like, yeah, but this is my experience. I like that. Wait, you and I have different experiences on something?
Weird. It is good to highlight that, you know, not all profiles have to be exactly the same. So I don't know if I have anything else I can keep talking about this. Feel free.
Um, I'm also fine. Like I think a short episode is fine and feel free to keep talking. Yeah.
Yeah. I think I talked about everything I wanted to hit today. Um, just kind of like being aware of you not feeling well too.
Um, I don't want to drag this out if we don't have to. So I think everything we talked about is good. For those of you listening, just find the little spots and the little moments that you can embrace or connect to. And I think that it takes a lot of the pressure off of like, this was supposed to feel this way or be experienced this way.
Or I was supposed to show up this way and really try to take some of that intense societal expectation off of you. you are in a part of the world right now that's gearing up to celebrate a lot of these holidays that are coming up. okay that's well said can't add anything helpful to that well this episode will come out before probably early december so for those of you who are listening we appreciate it and um hope you can kind of just create whatever you need to create in the next couple of weeks too and take care of yourselves so for all of you listening to divergent conversations it's on all major platforms and youtube New episodes are out every single Friday.
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