We were one of the first few advertisers on app 11 that really tested. We were very impressed with the result that we were getting. Roas looks really good. Where would you rank it in terms of your level of spend? Either second or third after meta right now. So it's a pretty big channel for us. If you're just starting out on app 11 and you see performance is really strong, push more spend towards it and see how performance changes when you scale up spend. We are seeing really good result and that's why we were able to continue to test it last Q4 and still spending on it today. Welcome to another episode of chew on this. Today we have a series where we're diving into how you're going to diversify your marketing channels. This is a special series brought to you by Applovven. Today we have VP of growth from Kit Yingying joining us who's going to be talking about how she's diversifying her marketing channels and how that's helped their brand grow into the size they are today. So first of all before we get started, Ying, thank you so much for joining us. Uh we're super excited to have you here. for the few people who may not know about you, uh, give them a little bit about your background and and a little bit about your role at Kitch. Yeah, so I am the VP of growth and e-commerce at Kitch. Uh, Kit is a hair care and hair accessories brand. Um, we sell everything that you need to take care of your hair from shampoo and conditioner bars, satin pillow cases, heatless hair curler. Um, we are also launching into a very exciting new category actually next week. Um and yeah, I've been at KI for going into three my third year now. Um just hitting my third year. We have been growing, you know, very quickly. Um almost over 50% year-over-year just on the DOC side in the last three years. Um and before Katch, I was at another hair care brand for four years called Function of Beauty. I was their um second marketing hire at the time. Um has done everything on the marketing and growth marketing side. Um that brand also grew very quickly. Um we hit $100 million in less than four year just on D to C. Um and then I spent a year and a half at another direct to consumer only brand called Blueland. Um they sell sustainable uh cleaning product. Um so kit kind of you know it was like the perfect opportunity marrying like that sustainable and eco-friendly products in the hair care space for me. It's incredible. So hell of a journey. So that's a excited to crack it all. doing DTOC for a very long time. Was buying um Facebook media when CPM was like $2 back in the day. Um I don't know if I'm aging myself, but yeah, be doing this for a while. You have the perfect perfect uh person next to you who will understand. It's just like remember the $2 Facebook? Put in a dollar and make 10. Yeah, exactly. And like people thought that was like really expensive. Yeah. No, it's a it's honestly a perfect segue because I think, you know, so much of what the the foundation of this series and and why we we've been working on putting something together here is I think so many marketers have been bucketed into bucketed into like not even being called marketers, just Facebook ad buyers. And like I I I feel like that shift has happened more than ever like since like COVID and like a little bit before COVID where um it really wasn't like you never really met a marketer. You met most people you met were like yeah I I know how to run ads on meta really well. And I think it started to get into the point of like oh well I'm starting to become over reliant on meta. And then people are like, I'm dependent on meta. And now you have people who are living and dying by Meta, literally. Like, you know, you have brands that can't survive because they're like, I I can't make the ads work. And so much of like what we wanted to do with this series was um we we want to talk about why diversifying channels is important, but also just why you need to think about how to diversify even just marketing in general, right? And and and think about all the other ways we can grow. So I think starting there I think it would be great to understand kit obviously nine figure brand amount of growth. Um you guys have um obviously touched on this diversifying piece really well. Maybe give us a little bit of uh uh journey of um what platform you kind of grew into as the years went on especially in your last three years with kit. Yeah absolutely. Um so we are still pretty heavy on Meta. So I think in terms of channel diversa diversification I think the way that we like to think about it is how can we make sure that all of our channel work together. um you know from a creative messaging standpoint if people seen an uh from us on meta but they change to Tik Tok or you know Snapchat they see us there having that multiple touch point and you know being always like top of people's mind top of people's feed just hitting people where they are looking at content right is really important to us and you know Meta is still a huge channel for us but we have you know a lot of media spend going into influencers and affiliate um we tested into podcast um we are on all the paid social channels like Tik Tok, Snapchat testing into Twitter, Pinterest as well. So anywhere you can see an ad like we probably on at this point. Um we also tested um app 11 last Q4 and has been doing really well for us too and that has been a huge unlock and you know we are also actually launching into TV in a couple weeks as well. So from a channel diversification standpoint, we really just want to hit you know different type of customers where people are consuming content where they are you know getting information or buying things. makes sense. When it comes down to the content side of things, right? Um, each platform may be a little bit different from each other, right? You're you're what you run on Twitter isn't necessarily going to be the same thing you run on Snapchat or Meta on Tik Tok, right? So, how do you guys actually get into the creative process of, well, here's an idea. How do we deploy that angle or concept across multiple different types of channels and formats? Yeah, I would say we still test everything on Facebook first. I think is still kind of the lowest risk and um you know easiest to test type of channel. Um so if we have a new messaging that we want to test um we make like four to five iteration. retest on Facebook, find a version that is working and then adapt it across all different channels like change something for Tik Tok, change something for Snapchat, um change something, you know, for Twitter or even app level as well, right? I think for us that's like the easiest way for us to test through a lot of content at a very low risk. We're not going to like test a brand new concept going into TV and spend you know with bigger commitment um there. So um that's how we approach testing. Got it. Yeah. So you have the creative testing now audiences. Yeah. Um obviously for for meta everybody says go broad go broad. Um does that carry over to the rest of the channels? Yeah, I would say um because we are so broad, we are I will say 85% of our spend is going towards ASC campaign. We are very very broad on meta now. But where we find we can get that audience learning is really through the creative messaging the creative concept. We will have like older models working like a hair growth and hair loss as messaging that's working that tells us like we need to target like a more mature audience right on different platform as well. So that's how we like target uh different audience through like creative concept creative messaging. Yeah. So creative everything is doing the targeting through the actual creative and messaging. Um audience we're going broad and letting creative right find the right person. Now, actually tracking results across multiple channels, I find that to be extremely challenging. Yeah. So, I'm very curious how you guys are able to do that because for me it's like I rather just stick to meta and and slowly, you know, add in everything else. But, um, I mean, you guys are running across so many channels. How are you guys determining if all right, well, we're running meta here, but Snapchat and Twitter's getting added here. Is it incremental or not? Yeah, I think incremental testing is like a huge topic. I think since last year like are these you know new channels really driving incremental value, new customer for us. The way that we look at it um is each channel has a little bit different KPI, right? We know for example Tik Tok, right? People interact with content very differently on Tik Tok versus Facebook, right? It's not very like a click driven type of channel. We still can track a lot of sales but we understand that we are losing like X% of attribution right like I know different brand is very different based on their you know purchase cycle like for us we have a pretty impulse purchase type of product. So most of our customer actually buy within the same day they see the ad. So we are not selling like $2,000 mattresses like you don't really have to like think about it for a very long time. So for us we look at that um click rorowaz on what it is and understanding we are losing you know let's say 10 15% of attribution from that. So we can aim for a little bit lower rorowass for um a channel like Tik Tok. I think for us it's not like how it it's about like how close um can we get that row to Facebook or beating Facebook and then we can scale from there. So do you guys look at also the blended numbers on a day-to-day basis? Yeah, we optimize based on me for um for the daily for for weekly daily. We look at what is our me look like? Are we profitable in that day? Um and then figure out if we have room to scale up budget on certain channels and how do you determine where to kind of increase budgets and takeaway? Yeah, that's where we kind of like look at the performance on the channel level, right? If let's say Facebook is really crushing it um that day or that week from a rorowass perspective um we have a pretty um one day click attribution window um so if it's crushing it from a ro perspective and me looks good let's increase there if it's app level let's increase there so really depends on you know how me is looking on a daily basis and then what you know that one a click rorowaz look like and then determine in um increasing spend on certain channel. I think with paid social it's easier. I think other offline channels like influencers or podcast is a lot harder to just like click on a button and increase spend. Um sometimes we will have like influencer like at like a 1.5 2x and we were like can we scale like 2x the spend but then we are like we can't just go off and book you know um 25 more influencers on the next day. So I think different channel works very differently based on if it's like offline or online. Do you guys use an attribution tool? Yes, we do. We just north beam. North beam. Yeah. So, I feel like the the when you do grow beyond like the two or three channels, you definitely need some sort of attribution tool, whether it's a north beam or a triple whale. Um I at least for us, when we tried to expand into say like Pinterest, right? Yeah. Um I don't know what your experience with Pinterest is and and I we didn't have the greatest one because they told us that we had like a a 4x return on on a 50,000 in platform in platform and there was no other source of truth saying um and then you look at like your clicks it's like we got like three clicks it makes it makes no sense so I yeah I agree I I trust Meta to a certain degree I kind of trust Tik Tok I don't trust Pinterest and I don't trust Snapchat honestly we don't trust any platform you heard you heard it here first I ever trust any in platform tracking would I mean it makes sense right like Meta is going to want you to spend all the money on Meta the same for Tik Tok every single channel so you really need like a second source of truth um to you know look at that data holistically like it's also like comparing apples to apple right as a media channel um like we can't look at meta on like a 7-day click and then Tik Tok on like uh you know 7day click plus a one day view of course it's going to look better right um so that's why we have like our one source of truth on north beam makes sense I think we can go into uh you mentioned in starting Q4 you had started it as applo loven um and I think there's been a lot of buzz around it because they kind of came into the the space and um incredible offer I think they were giving brands you know $10,000 to test the platform and and uh I think that's a really good incentive because just at least to and even at a, you know, at a at a neutral row as you're kind of getting uh something there. But, you know, we've heard from many brands that it's it's working well. It's starting to become uh what some people started to coin as like the the second meta and and you know, something that can actually be sidebyside to meta. Um, but you maybe you can walk us through a little bit about like when you started testing it, what you've seen and maybe the setup because I think people still don't understand what it is and why kind of it's come about. And when you break it down, you're like, "Oh, it's those ads on those games. It makes sense." It's in mobile games and it's addicting. And then you spend so much time on these mobile game, right? And then you see kind of like the same ads like 15 20 times and you're like, I have to buy it. So like the the like journey like customer experience journey really makes sense. But yeah, we um I think we were one of the first few advertisers on app 11 that really tested. We were in like the early stage beta. We got the credit. Um that's how we get started and I think we were very impressed with the init like the result that we were getting. ROAS looks really good and from a spend perspective it looks like we are able to really scale is not something like oh we're just spending like $200 a day and like it does nothing type of thing. It's like really um at a significant spend level and we are seeing really uh good result and that's why we are we were able to continue to test it last Q4 and we are still spending on it today. It's incredible. Yeah. Where would you rank it in terms of your level of spend compared to the other channels? I would say it's either second or third after meta right now. Second. Wow. What's your So, it's a pretty big channel for us. Yeah. I think what would be really helpful is, you know, as we're talking about these other channels and you've literally tested or are currently testing all of them or most of them. Um, I'd love to maybe go through all of them uh one by one and just maybe you can give either like a small tip on something that's working even if something's not working like what you learned not to do. Um, and maybe we can start with something like Twitter, right? like you mentioned you're spending on Twitter. Um how's that work? Like what's what do you guys look at? What what are you seeing there? It's very up and down. When it launch it does really well for like a day and then it completely dies down. I don't know. So run Twitter for a day, right? Yeah. I don't know if you guys um seen similar trend, but that's where sometimes a a lot like that happens a lot for channel testing. you're like out of the gate when you spend $200 things looks amazing because you only spend $200. Can you stress test that and then spend like $2,000 and see the same results, right? I think the hardest thing for channel expansion. It's really can you scale on those channel? It's not like hey like everything will look good if you spend like $500 on it, right? Um, but can you um spend, you know, $500,000 and still see results, right? Um, and for us, because we still have a smaller team, we can't spend a lot of time on, you know, channels that it's just not worth it for us. Um so it has for us like channel expansion has to um you know be able to scale to a certain level of spend for us to continue to invest in it. So Twitter is very small. It's not a huge scalable channel for us. I wish it can be cuz but but you're there. You're present. Uh anything on like creative to comment or just whatever is kind of working? I think static does better on Twitter. Um, yeah, at least for us, static like did better. Is it just a would it would it make sense for maybe smaller brands to be on there from a sense of just retargeting um or is it kind of just cannibalizing what everything else is doing? I think I think it really depends on your budget. Like do you want to is that the right audience for you? Right. I think for us the reason why it didn't do so well is it's because it's a more maledominated audience on Twitter. I think that's what um Twitter has been telling us also as well like is there's more guys like that is using Twitter. Um so yeah, so I I think that's why it didn't like really do really well for us. Yeah, maybe we can move to like Pinterest now. Um how is how's that going? Any any learnings? any key tactics there? Yeah, I would say from a last click attribution perspective I'm sure you guys have seen not doing great but I have heard other brand the reason why um we are testing it it's it is we heard it from other brand that it's a much longer play cuz like it makes sense like I when I use Pinterest right I save things um it's how people use the platform to like save things that they like and then purchase later when the time comes. So if brands are going to launch on app 111 today, what would be the advice you give those people? I would say start with your top performers that you try like the tried and trueue top performers that you were in on paid social for like years. It's all video, right? All video. Yeah. If um even if a creative that has been fatigued on like Meta or Tik Tok, like try those out. It's pretty easy. You know, you don't have to, you know, do creative just for app. I think that is also uh really great for us cuz we don't have to invest a lot of Yeah. creative resource to it right now. Um which has been really helpful. We just testing on what's working on meta and then push those into uh app 11ven. And the app loving team has been great on, you know, working with us on creating um different end cards to test, different offers to test. Can you explain the end cards piece for people who may not know what that means? Yeah. So um when you after you see a video, there's like a like 3 second 3 to 4 second um end card that is um that is created by Ab. Um basically you usually have like an offer um CTA um and then a drive to land um on your website. Um we have been trying to make more of like a gamified style type of end card so people can feel like it's Yeah. So it's more native to the experience when people playing a game, right? So for us like we have ads that um it's kind of like this build a bundle type of ads are doing really well and we can kind of like gify that build a bundle experience that looks more native for apploven. When we initially started with apploven the way that they told us to set up ads was like make as many ads as you can and just toss it in here. Y that felt very interesting to me because at least on meta it's like you're you're testing very meth methodically, right? Um how are you guys kind of setting up creative test? How are you guys scaling on the platform? Yeah, they basically told us the same thing. You like don't even, you know, overthink it. Just use your top performer and then we'll test and then we'll see what's working. And that honestly has been doing really well for us. like we don't have we haven't have to think about like what different persona to create you know different creative for on app 11 um at least right now I'm sure we'll have like a lot more data as the platform you know evolve in like the next like few years because it is still in the pretty early stage um I think their team is still like figuring out like what is the best way to work with us on like creative testing is that for us is really focusing on end cards right now. I think they're still kind of like figuring out like what works best like with their team our team um and then collaborate in that sense and scaling budgets here is it similar to meta where maybe 20% bumps here and there or how do you yeah I I would say they are a little bit less sensitive on you know when we increase budget by like 30 40 50% you see less of like a fluctuation In Q4, we were spending it. It's our biggest time of the year. We do really well on gifting. Um, so we were just like pushing as much as spend like we can on channels that is working. So for us it's like how can we just capitalize on what is working and spend as much as we can at a very good rass. I would say it almost feel like like the early meta days when CBM was like $2 and then you you know 10x your spend and you don't see any decline on performance which is really crazy. So I would say from you know if you're just starting out on app 11 and you see things are working really well um performance is really strong um you should push more spend towards it. see like what the impact is and and see how performance changes when you scale up spend and really stress test it. I do want to move to something that's been on everybody's minds especially when it comes to to platforms like Meta, right? We've seen this personally where especially with the the adaptation of ASC and them moving towards kind of automating the the media buying process, right? They're it's like this black box of whoever they want to target. You kind of give them all your creatives, they'll go do what they need to do, right? Y the concerns here is that is Meta going to go after kind of like the lowest hanging fruit first? Is it something that is scalable? Is it going to introduce new people to the funnel? Because obviously your top ofunnel audience is going to be the most expensive, right? And their goal is to get you to spend the most money possible and the only way for them to do that is to show you, hey, we have a great rorowaz that we're we're providing, right? Yeah. How are you guys, especially, you know, kind of investing in multiple channels here. How are you guys able to continue to drive top off ofunnel awareness, brand awareness and actually drive net new eyeballs to the brand? Yeah, that's a great question and that is why we are launching to TV in a few weeks, right? I think the way that we think about channel diversification really is how can we have you know upper funnel more brand awareness type of funnel that can still drive sales that is still direct response our TV ads are like fully direct response for us we want to get that sales but we we know we're going to reach like a different audience right um if people have like people might not have like Tik Tok Facebook but they watch is like TV 8 hours a day like they're going to see us there, right? So our hypothesis on going into testing into TV is one it's going to like drive sales on its own but also lift other channels like paid social show um you know it's going to help meta right like it's going to get more people into our retargeting funnel to be able to get them convert in this like mid to lowerfunnel type of channel. Um, and it's going to help our overall media spend. The one thing that you said was how do we help Meta, which in in my opinion, honestly, it's meta has is more of the the amplifier than anything else. Um, because I do think they're really good at looking at an audience that is visiting your website, engaging, and converting, and then potentially finding more people, right? But only if we give that information to them. Like Meta is not going to go out and explore by themselves. Right. Exactly. So outside of TV, is there any other channels that are that you utilize to help Meta do better? Yeah, I would say channels like podcast and influencer. Um, influencer for us is interesting because it kind of like goes into the meta ecosystem, right? Right. like we use like whitelisting ads from influencer that's going to like drive direct sales on Meta. We run a lot of whitelisting ads and all of that. It's going to also help our meta performance and I totally agree with you. I I think we have to find those people um who visited our site and then funnel into if they visited um our site and then they see a better ad, they're going to convert, right? So it it's that like multiple touch point with a customer or new customer who haven't heard about us is like really important to us. That's why we want all of our channel to really work together. That's how we optimize our media spend. Yeah. The one buzzword that comes and goes every so often is whitelisting. Um it's not a new concept, right? It's it's definitely not a new concept. It's always worked. Yeah. Um, but I think the reasons why it's making a comeback in the sense that it's becoming more popular now is because of what you just said, which is whitelisting through the influencers, you know, profile, whether it's on Facebook or Instagram. The initial touch point for when you're running those ads is to target that influencers's audience first instead of just whatever you set your parameters to be, right? Broad or whatever. If by forcing Meta to go and actually hit these new audiences, it allows the platform to now okay all right I can I can move away from my core audience let me try and you know hit this influencers's audience and then use that as a new way to find even more new people right so yes the benefits of using an influencer for their content for the reason of it looks super native to the platform that's one But I think on an offsecalibrating every so often when you launch these new um whitelisting, you know, uh influencers. So, it's definitely finding new audience for us. Exactly. Yeah. Um so my question for you guys is because you you guys run a lot. Um, is there a is there a good process that brands who are not necessarily doing this just yet, but how can they um kind of increase their efforts there? Yeah, so for us it starts with our pay influencer efforts and affiliates efforts. Um, it really if a influencer when her Instagram story goes live is driving like a 2x, we know that content works, right? that piece of content works already. So that's how we start the process of working with that influencer through whitelisting her content and a lot of influencer loves working with us because you know we are also showing them and their content in front of a lot more people through whitelisting right so it's kind of like a win-win between brand and the influencer for us and you know the reach is you know just much bigger when you put budget behind that piece of content um to continue to um reach new audience on the platform. Um so that's like one way that we have been doing it and we also have a roster of you know in-house creator that we work with and we whitelist through their handle as well. These are smaller content creator who might be you know just starting out and you know newer to creating content but they create like amazing content and has done really well for us. So we we want to whitelist um with them too. So there's and then there's you know smaller affiliate type of you know microcreators right um and which we work with to create ads um mostly for like UGC type of content and now just like start whitelisting their content um and then we also have like different pages that we create um on our own um and then we use those for whitelisting as well. Love that. So, for the influencer side of things, it sounds like there's a three-part process here. One, you guys are probably seeding to a lot of creators. Um, seeing who kind of posts, who actually drives some some results and traffic, and then kind of furthering the relationship there. The second one, um, is actually working with just creators who are may not have an audience, but are really good at making content, which is is a no-brainer. And then are you guys doing like paid promotions with bigger We are. So, how my my biggest thing for that is because I'm scared to start investing there is how are you vetting the right people for those? Oh, we have a very very strict CPM and CPV guideline. You we have it has to be under let's say $10 CPM or under like 1 cent CPV for us to you know for the math to back out, right? Um, it's not the most fun way to look at influencer marketing. Um, I always tell, you know, people who wants to do influencer marketing because it sounds really fun like you're working with all these fun influencer. I was like, you're just doing math all day. You want to find the creator who can hit that like under like one or two cent cost per view. Are you proposing these deals to them when you talk to them? like you're saying like hey this is the this is the deal you guys have to stay within. Yeah these are our budget like these are how much like we are willing to the ones who walk away either don't have the confidence to hit it or don't don't value yeah and then we'll have to find like other creators. Yeah. Yeah. Because there are so many creators out there, right? Like there are so many who will meet those like we like numbers that like that we feel good about hitting cuz at the end of the day like it it it's kind of like running ads on meta, right? You have to hit certain click-through rate, conversion rate for the CPA to back out. It's kind of the same thing on how we run influencer. It's like this influencer, this post have to drive x amount of view at this cost at like 3 to 5% conversion rate, it will back out. So it it's kind of like become a math problem for us. Yeah. So are you just taking say maybe the average views over the last like seven 10 videos and saying, "Okay, well if this person averages 10,000 views a video, I want a $10 CPM and whatever that math is. Here's my budget. Take it or leave it. Yeah, basically we should start doing that. That's that is the process and creator these days are actually really good about sharing their um you know how much view they get from their stories and all of that as well. They have to cuz it's like give brands like us like more confident to work with them. I think I was just talking to somebody yesterday. We're trying to get more like people in the medical field just just to instill that that confidence. And there was a nurse who I believe quoted us like $2,000 for a post. Her videos average 2,000 views. So I was like, "You want me to pay you a dollar per view?" Um, no thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's all part of the negotiating process. And if you add like the whitelisting part to it, it's kind of like added value that you're getting as well. Like you can use this piece of content and white list for the ad. So it's all about the negotiation with influence. I agree. I mean, if if if you perform, then by all means, I'll give you whatever you want to whitelist, right? But at least just show me that there's some life here. Yeah. Because I don't know anymore. the the creator the creators out here are balls you with their their quotes. Yeah, we are lucky um we're pretty lucky that we have find like a lot of really good creator in the past few years that have done really really well for us. I think also comes down to the product too like and brand and brand right it's like oh you know what I really want this product I really want to try it you know I'll I'll I'll do this yeah and the product has to make sense for the creator too like it can't come across as like I'm hard selling this product so yeah and a lot of creators honestly don't want to do that anymore yeah the the one thing before we move on from this topic is how important is that experience that that you give the influencer when they receive the product. Do you guys do anything special for that? Yeah, sometimes we um do gift box and we always send um like a branded gift box and like extra products for them to try. Um we really want them to love the products, right? Like again like we don't want them to sell something that like they don't even like. So we let the influencer pick the product as well. We have a pretty large product catalog. Um, so they can pick from like shampoo and conditioner or sign pillowcases or heatless hair curler or any other products that makes more sense to them to promote. Um, I'm curious. I mean, you've been giving so many great tactics. What What are some some either either learnings or mistakes you've made or some challenges you've come across over these last few years? Um, as you've diversified, right? like you know you as you're testing these new platforms you know you talked about some of the challenges of of of attribution reporting but maybe you can talk through some of the challenges you're facing so maybe that people can relate to and see how you navigate across it. Yeah, for sure. I think when it comes to channel expansion, I think don't try to go into other channel too early when it doesn't make sense for the brand um to be TV for example, right? We are we are spending a lot on meta. Um so we feel like right now at this point it makes sense for us to test into a channel um like TV. Um it's much bigger of an investment larger risk like you have to invest like in creative first making all the creative and you have to really give the channel time to test and learn. It's not something like we're going to run for a week. If it's not working, we're going to pause. we're going to commit to run running like a 8week test and then look at the performance and then see how we can optimize and scale. Um so the investment is much much larger. Um and we have to commit to certain spend up front right with that task. Um, so I have done this. I also have seen brands done this is go into like a offline channel like TV, podcast or direct mail when they're only spending like $5,000 a day on Meta. Um, I think if your spend on meta is still like very small, there's so much room you can optimize, right? from a creative perspective, you know, even audience testing perspective, there's you, you know, you can get really really good at optimizing meta first before you go into other, you know, bigger risk, bigger investment type of channel. So channel expansion is great, but I think you really have to like do it very thoughtfully and strategically on what channels to go into. That's great. for the rest of the year. Um, outside of TV, is there anything else you guys are trying to maybe double down on or or expand into? Yeah, we are launching um into a completely new category. Um, I can share we're launching here fragrance because it's already in Alta. It's a a very different category than what we have. And for us, we really think it's a very scalable category as well. And with a new category launch, it's kind of like starting a new like business on Meta or on like influencer. There's so many new things that we can do and we can test. Um so I think one thing um we are tapping into this year is how can we you know leverage um product as a growth lever to scale different new products rather than you know just really focusing on you know changing our creative changing our landing pages really use new product as a lever for growth. Love that. It's really cool. Um, I know we're coming up on time, but I I'm I'm curious in terms of when you're looking at the macro environment and you're looking at what's kind of going on. I know there's a lot of different uh viewpoints on how people are trying to uh navigate through what's going on. I'm curious like you guys have always it feels like you kind of soar through it all like you look at the noise and you're kind of still chugging along and pushing along. Um, for those people who are like, "Oh, it's just kind of tough times right now. The market is tough. this and that. What what's kind of the the the viewpoint you have on it and how do you guys kind of power through it? Because in some ways some some people would say maybe you are a premium product. Some some people may look at as like hey it's it's a good price point. Um and at that point when you have that type of elasticity you kind of also can say well we can have a lot of point of views. How do you kind of fight through um that and just say hey we're just going to keep chugging along. Yeah, I think for us at K, we always like to say like the high is not that high and the low is not that low. Like day to see is really hard. I've been doing this for almost 10 years. I feel like when you are like crushing it, sales is really great. You're just like, "Oh, it's another day." And the same thing when sales is rough, right? I think really just, you know, staying focused and, you know, do the things that you're like good at like focusing on, you know, creative um making really really great content, right? I think that's a huge lever um for us and also for us is really making really great product that consumer wants to come back to buy. Um, I think it's what really separates us from, you know, other brands out there. Um, I think for us, like focusing on those things and what we always do as a team and do really well, it's how we are kind of like continue going. Um, I mean, this was super tactical. Super tactical for those who are obviously, you know, uh, trying to not get away from meta, but just trying to, you know, level up and and spend a little bit more. a lot of a lot of notes to to take away. Um, but in that in that in that same, you know, breath, what would be one thing you want viewers and listeners to take away and implement in their business today? Yeah, that's a tough question. Um, yeah, I think there, like you said, like there is a lot of noise out there. I think I would say really test and learn and see what works for your business. Um there's always going to be a new channel that's like, you know, everyone is saying it's going to do really well. Um but you really have to test and see if it works for your business. Um and if it doesn't, it doesn't. It sometimes like a you know different channel just doesn't work for everybody. So yeah, I would say test and learn and focus what works for your business. True. True on that. If you want more from us, follow us on Twitter, follow us on Instagram, follow us on Tik Tok, and check out the website chew on this.io. [Music]