[Music] [Music] welcome back everybody to the growing
band director podcast this is episode number 68. we're very pleased to have Dr Robert Grogan
with us from Cobb County schools and remind us Robert what's the what's the school that you
teach at I teach at Barber Middle School in Acworth Georgia that's right we're uh super
excited to have you on here because I was just checking out on Facebook that you had
a presentation that happened yesterday at Georgia Allstate or Georgia music convention
what's the right terminology yeah gmea yeah um and it's What's the title of it oh yeah
classroom management for the modern Middle School band director and I'm like I saw
a couple of your quotes and I'm like this guy speaks my language so we need to we need
to hear all the things that you have to say um and you're doing it again in Georgia
I mean in in Utah this coming week so um really excited to have you
here thank you for being here um yeah so can you give us a I'm going to
start with a quote that you have in here that I just really struck me as something that
I agree with so I wanted to kind of lead off that before you start your intro um you say in
here that it's important that as teachers we're firm and consistent on the podium and we're
approachable and relatable off the podium hey um I I think the foundation of of saying that
I I think it has to do with building relationships and um and approachability I I really do think
that what you can expect out of a child is really proportional to the trust you build with them so
so we must spend a lot of time building that trust getting to know them getting to know things about
them and not just that but also letting them know things about ourselves uh for example in in my
office myself and my co-worker we have all of our nerdy stuff up in our office uh Brad's got
his Lego things in office there's lots of Star Wars things up in the office and there and it's
actually there's sort of a conversation starter with children they'll come in and be like oh you
guys like Star Wars and what is it it's doing is it's it's humanizing us to them and so that it's
kind of like that Olive Branch and building a relationship with them then the other component
is firm and consistent and Hallmark of classroom management is just I like the phrase dogmatic
consistency just being very consistent in a way that you're predictable to children in a rehearsal
when you're on the podium because when you're predictable to them it's a it's a safe place for
them and there is a difference between running a predictable rehearsal and being predictable I'm
sure we'll get into that how your warm-ups and all that are not going to be very predictable
all the time but you yourself are predictable absolutely um you know taking role talking to them
in a calm voice never speaking over the children um and just that interaction they should know what
they expect of course you adjust your warm-ups depending on the repertoire on what you're
working on that day um but it it shouldn't be like the moment you step on the podium they don't know
if it's going to be crazy you or or or somebody that they they can feel calm and trusting of you
know crazy me comes out a little bit I get really animated with the music but but you know when I'm
talking to the kids and we're we're starting class raise your hand if you guys know of anybody that's
not here today it's a very calm and I purposely try to be very soothing when I talk to them so
let's start with a little bit of an introduction about your teaching career and your program sure
um well Barber Middle School is in Acworth Georgia the most I've been there for 10 years most of the
time I've been there it's been a title one school we are on the border we we go back and forth
right now we're about 53 for your reduced lunch um there are roughly 850 students in the entire
school so it's a pretty small school however we consistently have about 400 kids in the Band
program well uh the band has received some invitations to some invited performances in last
year uh really special to me uh we were one of the national winners for the William Foster project
award for excellence and what they do is they try to find um High achieving bands that are in
marginalized communities in at-risk communities and they try to recognize those programs so
that's something I'm pretty proud of before um before Barbara I came from Utah and I
started teaching in Utah First out in the desert and then uh Metropolitan Salt Lake City
but I'm actually originally from Georgia and Cobb County so coming back to Barber Middle School
and Cobb County Schools was coming home for me great what high school do you feed
North Cobb High School North Scott yes great so that is the same county as um
hope where you're originally from yeah yeah um I went to Pope high school yeah I know I
knew you were the purpose because when I started teaching everything that area was just exploding
as it got bigger and bigger and bigger with more and more high schools right right there's a
lot of fantastic band programs from Cobb County um Pope and Lassiter Kennesaw Mountain Harrison a
lot of very well-known High School band programs all right let's start with um some are
we good to go on to the musical Ensemble classrooms today like describing that and
your introduction to this presentation that you're giving sure absolutely well
that was just an introduction and um the point I made in my presentation
about music ensembles and teachers today um pretty consistently what the research says is
that more and more new teachers are finding that um that they're under prepared for classroom
management that that is really the biggest hurdle when they first started teaching and a
lot of them are reporting that they didn't even realize how much of the job classroom management
is and and having those feelings that they they um wish they were better prepared um I do
make the point in my presentation I I really feel like classroom management is a skill it's
not something you have or you you don't it's it's kind of like jazz you know um people that um
poor advice in jazz is saying either you have it or you don't you you're the improviser you don't
but how you learn jazz is you learn emulate people learning a couple licks learn a bag of tricks and
it's a skill you develop over time and it's just like classroom management um where you learn
a couple tricks you learn how to navigate you emulate people and it's not something that you
have or you don't and and that's how we let off I love one of the quotes that you use
later as well and used it earlier as we were introducing too where you said I never
talk over the children I think that's a really that's a really powerful thing that you know
that if they're speaking you're not going to speak in class can't continue until they are
they're behaving yeah I bet you if you walk into your band room it's a is it a pretty
silent rehearsal when you're on the podium um yeah it's it's it's pretty silent um I I
don't like um having little automatons where I'm expecting complete silence the whole time
you know I want them to be able to laugh with me and have a good time and interact with me sure
of course but um I I would say that I've gotten a lot better and everything I do let me just a
caveat to that is from learning from lots and lots of mistakes and reflection over time and
none of this information is new but having said that I've gotten a lot better about learning
to engage the children when I speak to them so let's talk about some of the
um the best practices for managing classroom management class behaving sorry
managing behaviors in classroom management right I think some of the practices some of the
standard things that um new teachers do learn is like greet your students at the door learn
their names share at their entrance interest um show a sense of humor with them um I think
you can take it a little bit further than that by um there's a term that we use teacher efficacy
which is your belief that you can change the outcome of a learning environment and I think
if teachers believe that they do have control over what happens in the room and they have that
attitude and we start with that I think that goes a long way what I tell my student teachers is
that try to think about everything in the room is hap has to happen with your approval that
you are in control of everything that happens in in the room and just if if you don't
approve of a behavior if you don't approve of a posture or whatnot what are your tools to
address that and hold children accountable and um the the way that late we're a PBIS school
so we do that positive of reinforcement and and the way that I like to see the student
teachers hold the children accountable and people who've come in the band room is really
to focus on what is right before what is wrong um and the way you do that is I like how all the
trumpets are sitting I really like how Susan is holding her instrument and just give them a lot of
that feedback because children have this emotional bank account and you have to make sure that you're
making enough deposit so in case you have to take a withdrawal of please sit with good posture
you know in case you have that you have plenty of deposits that you've um made with them um so
we talk about the three to one ratio for every um correction make sure that you've said three
positive things to a child um and and that type of positive intervention and that type of
positive and interaction we try to have with them so that you have a comment on here that resonates
with me I want you to explain it a little bit more if you would um it says teachers who do not take
responsibility for their classroom environments are often the ones who complain the most
about students and have poor management skills where does that come from right that's that's
the teacher break room that comes entirely from the teacher break room where you where you
walk in and they might not necessarily be fine arts teachers and you walk in and you
hear a lot of the term these kids you know and and to me that's never really resonated with
me that I've never felt comfortable engaging in those conversations I've always wanted to feel
like I've had more control over the situation um it seems to me when when teachers start
talking like that they totally give up control they're at the mercy of whatever behaviors
are happening in their classroom um and and so I've I've never really necessarily like that
attitude or much less the teacher break room yeah and in general I know I started going there
to microwave my lunches because we have a we had a we had a fire like what 18 months ago so we
can't have a microwave in the band room anymore so I have to go to like the teacher room it's I've
actually met some of the teachers it's been cool Jeff I know I'm supposed to be in the teacher
room more I understand I'm supposed to eat in the teacher room I however I usually don't so I've
done it more and more because of the fire well for 35 years I did the eat in the teacher room every
day and exactly what Robert's saying occurs you could actually divide the room in thirds you had
the third that went with the talking about those kids he had the third that was just totally burnt
down it's just oh my God I can't wait to go home and then he had the third that said boy did you
know that Johnny so-and-so and Susie so-and-so did this and how it's reflecting in all their other
classes and I always went to that table and sat there because I wanted to hear what people had
to say good about the kids so I could bring that back into my classroom and say hey I hear you uh
won the uh cross country competition last week that's really great or you won the art competition
the other day or you you read a poem the other day it was really fantastic so that that was the way
as you said with the bank account you cash in the positives so when you have to make the withdrawal
it's not as big a deal right right and and really it is a hard enough job and and we can make the
decision to surround ourselves by positivity or not because teaching is difficult and I I
just rather surround myself with what's right one of the phrases that I've always heard and
tried to do is the phrase that says praise the student in public criticize the student in
private right meaning if there's something that you really need to deal with with a kid that
you do it one-on-one or in a small group setting but if you say good things about a child then
saying it in front of their friends or public or whatever is a really really big deal I assume
you subscribed to the same thing oh yeah and I've observed Master Teachers do that really really
there's a teacher in my school district that teaches at a really high poverty school um and
his name's Brian Nichols and I've watched him um just take take a kid and talk to him in
the corner of the room while his co-worker was rehearsing the band but it was exactly
what was going on he did it the child didn't feel embarrassed I'm sure it was a conversation
whenever I whenever I have to have that one-on-one intervention with a child the first thing I always
ask them is do you know why I'm talking to you just to make sure that they understand because it
should be a learning moment for them not just I'm mad at you here's this consequence but here's
the learning moment here's what we would like to see and then the next day don't forget
it so you can praise them for improvement I watched this one guy one time he was in a
group rehearsal and there was definitely a child that was acting up and he was not a person
that just stayed right on the podium all the time he moved around the room all the time so he was
working on a section and you could see that it was purposely moving towards the child he whispered
something in the child's ear and he came back and got to work that child stood up straight did
everything perfect for the rest rehearsal never asked him what he said but whatever he did the
kid was smiling and doing exactly what his or her responsibilities were at the time oh wow I
thought that was a really cool way of addressing the situation quickly because some teachers like
to just glue themselves to the podium and others like to move around because that way you get to
see interact with the kids while you're rehearsing at the same time sometimes and this guy dealt with
it right away and nobody knew for nothing a couple of teachers we were sitting in the bathroom and
said that's a master teacher that teacher took care of the problem and there was never anything
to worry about he never brought it up and he was a guest conductor never brought it up as a problem
or anything yeah I wonder what he said to them with the child yeah and it was a smile and the kid
smiled back and so but boy I was so impressed wow so one of the procedures that I like to do when I
start the year is um I don't let the kids walk in the Band Room the first time they kind of stand
out in the lobby and I get make sure they're all there ready to go and then I'll tell them what
we're going to do first okay we're going to go in your bag is going to go right here your phone's
going to go in your bag if if they have it with them then I'll teach them where the stands are
where the chairs are all the things here's what I expect you to do first I walk them through it
even if they've done it before I try to be very cautious of that at the very beginning so that
you know we don't have to do it more than once and so that the classroom environment then day after
day they know exactly what they're going to do I teach them how to rack the stands how to rack the
chairs because you can do it the wrong way in the right way where they're putting their instrument
where the pencils are you know all the things the things that I think people take for granted
sometimes you know um so I'm curious to hear about some of your procedures that you do that really
allow your students to have the best rehearsals yeah it sounds like it sounds like your kid
your procedures are very clear to the kids um well I I think teachers should have clear
concise procedures and and maybe for every domain like the locker room or the main band
room or rehearsal keep it to about three to five um so and they should always
be phrased in the positive too um so my procedures in my class we have
a way a way that we come in the room and there's procedures in the locker room and and
these are posted as expectations on on the wall um and then we have our rehearsal expectations
so those are five rehearsal expectations and um I have and these change every year so this
year's rehearsal expectations like version 6.0 um right and but but I find that if I can do
if children can do these five things these five behaviors it goes a really long way in our
classroom so here's what they are is number one um Barbara Bain members
give the podium 100 of their number two they only worry about themselves
now number three is actually my favorite but this one is hardest to word in the positives
uh because number three uh most uh disruptions in a classroom are from Young adolescents are
a teacher attention seeking behaviors so my number three is Barber band members are content
without always needing the attention of others um number four is respond appropriately and
number five is respectful of everybody's time and I I just think if the kids can do those five
things and we talk about it we talk about through rehearsals and I don't stand in front of them
say number one number two number three number four number five every single day no we I don't
bore them into submission with that but you know as they come up throughout the rehearsal I
I really like how after we stopped and I and maybe there was a random disruption in the room
or announcements came on I'll say guys I really appreciated how you all responded appropriately
and didn't overreact to somebody getting called to the front office you know I'll I'll thank them
for following those expectations throughout a rehearsal you know it's funny when you just
think something's important as a teacher if you make a small list like this and you post it
in the classroom and you talk about it it's all of a sudden those things I mean it's so simple to
say I think these things are important so let's write these down and make them a big deal and
all of a sudden they're fixed I mean it's like on the musical sense it's like the people who say
I'm gonna make tone number one you know and then so they'll say tone is the most important let's
focus on tone and then all of a sudden your tone is better it's really not rocket science right
you just have to you have to figure out what is most important to you whether it be classroom
expectations or whether it be musical expectations and you just uh make it clear to the children
and that's how you get them to do it better right nobody's going to put tone on a Podi on a
pedestal unless you do but don't you think that from if we go back to what we talked about
previously about going down to the cafeteria and hear the different conversations if you go
into some of those classrooms you're going to see these lists of 10 12 13 14 15 things and it I
think what our listeners need to realize is five maybe six nothing more because you're never going
to accomplish them and you aren't really thinking about what's going to make your classroom be a
manageable situation I think people get carried away with making huge lists that are never going
to work right right right there's a funny comic that was out uh From The Far Side where this
teacher is and the bottom of it says Miss mutner likes to go over a few of her classroom rules and
it says no dorky hairstyles no crying in class no smiling no eating no sweating no talking
you know and it just goes on forever and I I could imagine being 12 years old and looking at
that and being like okay well I am going to have a dorky hairstyle and and because and also
sometimes when you bring a lot of attention to things the kids do that thing you know um but
yeah three to five maybe six is is probably ideal trying to keep it real simple yeah if you can't
remember it it's it's too much right also if you can't you're gonna you have to be ready to enforce
all those things right right because they're going to test you so if you say you have to do X the
first kid who does it because they're gonna do it if you don't respond appropriately they're just
gonna go oh that one doesn't really count I'm just gonna we're gonna keep doing that one you know so
you know clearly as a teacher I'm sure you have these expectations but then you follow it up daily
and they have to meet those unless they can't or they can't rehearse right and teachers have to
persevere teachers have to I don't like maybe this isn't the best phrase to be more stubborn
than the children but maybe at least Prevail um and because if you're going to draw
a line in the sand if you're going to establish consequences you have to be prepared
to follow through with them well I'm going back on what you said earlier being consistent by
having those standards to established makes it a more educational environment and another
point is like because of what your standards are you can teach tone but if somebody puts tone
at the top of the list and the classrooms are out of control or you're never going to get
toned you've got to get your environment under control so you can teach the musical Concepts
you want yeah they have to know how to learn you can't keep any pedagogy if they don't know
how to function in that environment in your class and and post coven has taught us well that we have
to re-teach our students everything everything for everything and it's been hard yes so you
were talking about consequences in a talk from Dr Tim lotzenheiser comes up to me um he talks
about um he said I forget what his phrase was but it was basically it I don't give con I I
don't tell consequences ahead of time I don't give predictable consequences if you this then you
this because sometimes especially as the kids get older they're going to say well that's worth the
consequence for doing whatever it's going to be and he told a funny story about it but sometimes
not having a certain consequence given to the kids allows you to have the flexibility to change that
consequence given the certain situation so that's something I tend to do um all right let's go
over some of the your Podium time procedures things that you do while you're in rehearsal and
you're on the podium things that you insist on um so there's there is a flow a sequence that um
our Associated band director Brad and I that we work on and anybody that comes in our room um so
we're teaching middle school and we're teaching posture breath control instrument hold and so
we we have uh we have our set position and our plank position a lot of bands call set position
writing position but I've always thought that sounds like we're about to play um so we'll come
to set position and you know whatever instrument horn on their knee they're engaged they're looking
at you but here's the important part I don't move on to bringing the Hornets up until set position
is perfect I'm thanking everybody that's doing it correctly if somebody's doing it incorrectly then
I'm thanking the kid next to them uh for doing that correctly and I'm just ready for the room to
look right and this is where I see a lot of young teachers make the mistake they go they they have
the kids start applying before the kids are even sitting correctly and so once the room's looking
right the kids are on the edge of their seats their stance are pushed back raised up looking at
you then we'll bring the instruments up and now if they're holding the instruments how we taught
them to where the um directional instruments like trombones and trumpets are slightly below parallel
but enough for me to see down a little bit down the bells of their instruments um oboes clarinets
that 45 everybody looks good we're holding the instruments correctly um then we'll start playing
then if the kids don't take a breath how we want I because I always feel that like any time that
you go on you're giving and there's uh things that um that can be corrected and you don't you're
giving tacit approval for that behavior um so if the breath is not correctly we'll stop
and and talk about the breath we we talk about low metal high from lungs filling up do what
Freddie Martin teaches which is this he calls this upper respiratory expansion and we have to
see that with the kids and then we go on then at the end of the exercise or the music will cut
off the kids have their horns up they're looking at me but if their heads go left or right or they
react to the situation then we I say here's the one thing that we're working on we're working on
remaining silent after the cut off and following directions uh because band if you if you think
about it for somebody that's 11 years old band is might be the first time in their life where
they've gone back and forth between 100 decibels to almost no decimal just back and forth and
it's very disorienting to children and so the initial gut visceral response will be to react
and say something about that or even just like be a little bit overwhelmed the first time they
start playing in band so you have to you have to really teach them how to react keep their horns up
and and I I tell them you guys just had a chance to make some noise now it's my turn to make some
noise and this is my turn to give you feedback um and a lot of Young Band directors probably
don't practice that one thing enough about what the cutoff looks like and the the the the the
time for them to teach because I'll watch a lot of bands with with um where the director will cut
off and those kids instantly start talking to each other and they're not really hearing the director
and the directors having to talk over them too so 100 correct oh thank you so talk about um
you know I think I think well I think that the fast-paced rehearsal keeps kids more engaged
um not like overly fast but a a well-paced rehearsal but at the beginning that's tough until
they're following procedures so how can how can new teachers achieve a fast-paced rehearsal while
also going through all these steps and managing that behavior well I think another skill to build
outside of building the class and maybe it's it's Inc conjunction with classroom management another
skill to build is is your ability to engage um are you the most interesting thing happening
in the room are you more interesting than a cell phone or the neighbor your ability to change the
pitch of your voice the excitement levels your ability to really get excited about the most
inane thing like instrument posture and try to maybe even some sometimes like gamify things
um so sometimes we'll when we're doing these procedures how to keep their attention uh um so
we come to set position and they watch me about to hit the start on on I call it the doctor
from Dr B the kids know of it as the doctor I say as soon as the doctor hits we're coming
to playing position but you know I'll gamify it by like I'm looking in the room to see who's
the first one to come up playing position um and then they're real quick boom and they'll come
real quick hopefully they're not hitting their instruments on their stance and because they're so
excited by doing that but uh but they'll be real quick and they'll be really proud of themselves
but you know that's that's teaching 12 year olds you can do that kind of things with 12 year olds
hope it does it's not as effective with 8th and ninth graders uh who might be too cool for those
gamified games but hopefully by then you have won them over and they like music and the music itself
is the reward getting to play the repertoire and you're not having by the time they're in eighth
or ninth grade having to do um really gamified and trying to make all those inane things like the
procedures interesting by that point thank you so you were alluding to Podium presence and how
we are on the podium and how we need to be more engaging than whatever else are there options you
know a lot of people I think are band directors who are like me I would consider myself an
introvert and at first getting in front of kids I don't know is kind of scary still and but
just I think we were talking with Matt Dwyer and Jeff was a recently and Matt referenced having the
your teacher mask and what you need to do in order to get on your teacher mask I mean personally if
I was in front of our faculty I would probably be very scared be like I don't know I'd be nervous
but you get me in front of a bunch of teenagers and at this point in my career you just turn it
on and you forget about it and you just go Um so do you have any tips for younger teachers who are
trying to find their Podium presence and as a side note in Westbrook my wife and I we move around
the room a lot so when I mean Podium presence I don't just mean on the podium but do you have
any any advice for teachers as they are trying to become their teacher Entertainer slash you know
jokester slash band director slash all the things yes um you said a couple
things have really hit home um uh the teacher mass and it your
teacher teaching is sort of like acting um where you create this character but it's real
and authentic and it's not fake because it is you and it is your personality but it's a version of
you and so when you stand in front of children you are this character a lot of people that know me
outside of my classroom are completely shy they're completely shocked when they see me in front of
kids and then a lot of kids would be completely shocked if they were to know me outside of my
classroom um because I'm I'm very introverted um as well but it it and it really turns
around uh when I'm in front of kids um and I think that that teacher Persona that that
person I am which is me on the podium I I think I think comes from a place of I really
caring for the individuals in the room really caring for the individuals
in the room getting better at music um and really and and I've gone through phases
in my career when I first started out it was like fight or flight and that's where that teacher
Persona came from but I was so fortunate being in the middle of the Utah desert where I can
make all these mistakes and they still loved me anyway for it I was really fortunate with
that then as I experienced that some success um a couple years in the admittingly and I'm
embarrassed to say this but I think I can because I think a lot of people go through that it
became about me a little bit and my reputation and a little bit about my ego um 100 percent and
that was something that I was having to work through where back then you know year five year
six of teaching I was programming things for me that weren't necessarily appropriate for the
children to play uh but I wanted to play that uh and so I I definitely I can call that a phase
because I do believe I've recovered from from that um but not to say that that doesn't lurk and
like I would really like to play this piece and and whatnot and then um I I just got to this place
more of Zen with I I've I feel like Middle School teaching you grow into it I don't think a lot of
people are natural Middle School teachers because it is difficult to teach Middle School band but it
is something where you do grow into the position um and you have to learn to love the process
you're never going to have an ensemble that plays linkage and so you have to come to terms with
that but in in this place is something remarkably beautiful which is growth and developing young
humans and teaching them what maturity is like and using music to teach them and then all of a
sudden you're able your teacher Persona comes from a place of looking for at a room of children and
thinking I'm here because I'm teaching I'm doing what it takes to teach them to get better at music
today and we're gonna have fun doing it today and we're gonna love the process and hopefully the
results will be what we want but we're going to love the process um so it that's probably a long
way of saying that it comes from just my opinion but it comes from a a good bit of soul searching
along the way through that your journey too you talked about people not being a lot of people
not being natural Middle School teachers I think my wife at first she was like I'm going to be
a high school band director she is a fabulous 20-year band director at the middle school level
she is a one of those like you one of those Middle School teachers you're like oh it's just they
can do it and what she says she loves the most about the middle school age is how excited they
get when they learn something new whether it be something important or not but they're so excited
when something new comes she's like at the high school level it's like okay that's new that's
great but she just loves their enthusiasm for new ideas and New Concepts oh yeah and they're funny
too and they keep it interesting and they do crazy things so it it it's and you know I I just had
an advent uh um event at the high school I feed into North Cobb the other day and I was I love
going over there because those kids are so kind and sometimes they're so loyal and they're like
so happy when when you come to visit it's like Grandpa's coming over and and they're so kind but
and I I sometimes I feel like when I talk to my students who are now high schoolers I I feel like
um where I I just love them and everything they're that they're doing but I'm not as skillful uh like
connecting with them now that they're 17. you know um I I just feel like it's just easier for me to
talk to and connect with children that are 13. um it's it's just I'm it's probably because that's
what I'm used to right um and that's what I've done I it's just easier for me too but I bet you
if you were at a high school and you were around those kids you know you would develop what you
needed to to be able to relate to those kids more yeah hopefully yeah I would just have
to talk to a lot of the right people and learn from them and figure out what
to do and get over that learning curve well you're experiencing all the middle school
learning experiences teaching with the kids every day and when you teach high school kids
you're experiencing those learning experiences so you're not having the opportunity to experience
the high school level at the moment you knew them as middle school kids and you're trying to say
wait a minute this this child is speaking much more maturely than they spoke when I had him as
a student it's sometimes when I went from middle school high school I was like whoa this is this
is a big change and you have to you have to adjust the change just like going back to Middle School
from High School is a big change too right right and it it they're not always the same person the
kids change so much and sometimes I even say this to them I'm like look you're really not the same
person you were a year ago or two years ago I'm the same person I was 10 years ago you guys are
just changing so much and when they're they come you go up to the high school and they're talking
to you and they're 17 you're really talking to a much more of evolved and changed person by that
time and I don't know how tall you are but you used to look down at them and then all of a
sudden you're looking up at them right right we have a kid who was you know like four foot
nine or whatever and then he went to high school and grew a foot and a half and my wife saw him
as a sophomore and he was almost six six and we have a picture of it because it's just like he
just doubled in size it's just it's just crazy um so when you have such a great rapport with your
students and you you've spent all this time with them let's start talking about accountability and
behavior interventions like how do you actually when the rubber hits the road and things you need
to do in order to successfully maybe scold is maybe the wrong word but get them back on track so
behavior and interventions I think it is important to realize that you're only talking when you're
talking about accountability and like how you're following through with consequences you're
only really dealing with 20 of your children um poor teachers will address the entire
room and talk to them like that 20 is everybody and you can hear it in their language
there's a lot of don't do this don't do that um so when so when you're coming up
with consequences it's just I think it's best to keep in mind that this is for
a highly targeted group of children like the um I like using the RTI model um and which is
80 your instruction how you address the room is 80 of the kids 15 are that tier two and then
that heavy intervention is only five percent um so when we're talking to the about those tier
three and tier tier two kids that 20 where you have to really make sure that you're following
through with consequences um it's best that you do some kind of tiered system before there is
a consequence a tiered intervention and so for example that tiered intervention could be like
I mentioned before thanking neighbors for a pro let's say there's a trumpet player figure that
I thought trumpet player's not paying attention so a trumpet player is not engaged in in the
classroom then you're thanking the neighbors for paying attention you know thank you Sam for for
looking at me and and hopefully they get the hint you know sometimes you'll thank the neighbors and
make eye contact with that kid at the same time um and so then the broad generalizations okay
trumpets I think it's I I think we need to you know make sure that we're setting up a
good posture or whatever the correction is we make the broad generalization to the group
um making eye contacts waiting for appropriate behaviors you know if that child is not getting
the hint um what should you do is you issue the consequence and try to do it in a way to protect
their autonomy try to and so they can save face um so they can um and you try your best to do it
privately that's not all always the situation but um that's what you do um so again mentioned
earlier do you know why I'm talking to you um you know you give them make a teaching moment you
give them an opportunity for Redemption and praise the corrective behavior um so the consequences
should be whatever is established at your school um for if I if I have to get to there with a
child it's an email male home the first time and this is just our school intervention here
email home the first time email home the second time detention third time we have something that's
called end team isolation where the if they get to that fourth tier consequence with you they spend
all day with you like it's the ISS um and then five would be an office referral so just just
to recap just a tiered interventions into the classroom trying your best not to make a public
display out of it I heard somebody very smart um Nola Scott Jones Nola Scott Jones said at a
talk I heard her say that you know arguing with a teenager is kind of like wrestling in the mud with
a pig both of you guys will get dirty and the pig likes doing it yep and so you know you try not to
have that that um enter that uh argument in front of the class or what what not um so yeah and and a
nutshell the tier intervene and interventions and then this the school whatever the school policy
is and I I love the the um line that you have that says that I think fixes a lot of problems before
they begin is the line that says make sure that you're the most interesting thing happening in the
room I'll say that again I just I love that like it's a usually if your kids are be misbehaving
it's because they have time to misbehave right or and they're using attention-seeking
behaviors and if if that's one of your expectations is that you don't always need
everybody's attention you know you might need the teacher's attention but you don't always need your
peers attention during a rehearsal um if that's the next expectation and you're making sure that
you're more interesting than their neighbor then that goes a long way I also think it's important
to understand the difference between teaching high school and beginning band or middle school band
how it's so different I mean I'm very lucky my wife has trained all the students and everyone
who comes up has had four years of Mrs Smith and they know how to run a rehearsal so I have to
do less of that you know when you're the middle school teacher or the elementary school teacher
whatever it may be you're establishing those norms and those routines you're doing the hard
work and the high school teachers get the brunt of the reward from the work that you're doing so I
try to say this a lot on the podcast that you know a lot of high school teachers think it's about
high school and it's about them where the middle school is an autonomous program that should be a
program in itself which also feeds a high school but you know you are doing the hard work at the
middle school level I I strongly believe that yeah yeah thank you it's it's it it's
probably really easy for you and your wife to um collaborate and have a uh sixth grade
through 12th grade system too so I'm sure that um you're very fortunate I'm very it's I am
it's because I listen to her you're smart not just band stuff yes you're smart all
right let's talk about student engagement student engagement um goodbye so engaging
students I think there's a difference and this is a conversation I just had with my
um my student teacher is she's gotten real good at using the strategies and has gotten
the rehearsals very quiet and which is good and which is amazing a student teacher can do
this with 12 year olds in the room it really is impressive that that somebody 22 years old
can do this with 12 year olds um and so she's gotten really good at getting the kids quiet and
so we had the conversation I pulled her aside and I was like okay now that they're quiet understand
that there's a difference between being compliant and engaged and they're not always the same
um and so and I've seen band rooms and I've seen band rooms of band directors who've touted
that I've gotten very good classroom management and in reality what they're very good at is
getting children to be very compliant is getting children to you know they're just because they're
quiet does not mean they're they're working hard um so I I it's one of the first things I tell
kids when um when they start working with me that it's not good enough to just be quiet that's
not good enough let's let's let's talk about what what goes past that you have to be engaged um and
band rooms where kids are just compliant I I think there's also a relationship where those kids
might be also afraid to make mistakes and it's not a safe environment uh failure is a bad word in
that classroom rather than a good word um making a mistake isn't part of the learning process as
part of the process that might get you yelled at um and so trying to think about um I don't know
like the growth mindset Carol dweck um about some of that literature about what your classroom
environment should look like as far as having the attitude where mistakes are welcome mistakes
are celebrated who um I have a friend that tried some she just conducted an honor band and she's
like okay I tried something different Robert um they a lot of these kids seem very scared to
make mistakes they're being very timid and so what she did was she said all right guys who here
made a mistake and none of the children wanted to raise their hands but then one kid finally
raised their hand and she just celebrated and cheered that and then some other kids started
raising their hand and their honor band kids you know they want to do well they want to please
they want to make music you know they're not um doing this for um for this reason or
that but they're wanting to do well and so she's starting to cheer all these mistakes
and then she focused the virtual hers so let's talk about making mistakes there's different
types of mistakes but number one mistakes have to always be backed by effort and so I I think
when kids have that freedom and they feel safe um that's when you get bands that aren't so timid
sounding whenever you guess conduct a band and you stand in front of the band and they sound just
crazy timid and all their mistakes happen not because of lack of effort but because um they're
not playing with enough confidence I think that tells you a little bit about the environment
in that band room before you stepped in there uh one of the things I used to say to my kids
was if you're going to make a mistake make it big and the reason I want you to make it big is
that I know what I need to help you with if you if you hide I can't help you get better and
you know there's always the jokes that goes with that and then in some people blat outs and I said
well that's not the type of mistake I'm talking about but I think I think that's what we need
to teach kids to make mistakes and and we have to teach them that when you play professionally
you're going to make mistakes and it's how you approach the mistake and get Beyond it that's the
important factor so don't be afraid of it oh when I and I tell the kids when I make a mistake in
a professional situation it's to me it's a three alarm emergency I am like focused I'm tapping out
rhythms I'm figuring out stuff you know because you know my personal pride and what professional
musicians do is they try to do it just once and they they try to fix it and so we communicate
to the kids if you make a mistake make a big try your best to do it once see if you can
challenge yourself to only do it once and all that kind of music what you can do
to fix it right right all those things you guys are talking about those also make for better
more musical bands the bands that are afraid to make mistakes are not going to play as musically
they're not going to have as high quality music it's going to be timid they're not going to be the
individual expression is not going to be there so I bet your bands play expressively Robert I'm just
guessing um I will I always feel you know you're a teacher and you're always like it could be better
it could be better it could be better well yes one of the things about Middle School band is
like you get to a point with them in March of 8th grade year and you're like yes I could have this
band forever then it's time to give them today yeah I hear I hear about that as well um let's
talk about some ways that you motivate students um you have something in here that you reference
called self-determination Theory and I'm going to be honest I don't know what that means but it
seems to take up a big part of your presentation so I'd like to hear about it a self-determination
theory is like a meta Theory it's um it's a lot of motivational Concepts like
old stuff going back to like Albert bandura um and some some of the old self
efficacies I mentioned Carol dweck earlier um a lot about um another theory that's called
expectancy value Theory and it's just kind of one umbrella and this has become very invoked
lately in uh music education research and because it's just an umbrella term um
if you've used if you've ever read the book um drive by Daniel pink have you heard of that
book I have heard of it I have not read it um so that there's three components of drive
by Daniel pink called uh that if you're teaching for autonomy Mastery and purpose
um and and uh and that's very popular in my circles and I think a lot of people on
Georgia know that book and read that book um there's enough people that people listen to
that Advocate that book um but self-determination Theory um I I mentioned dry because it's
kind of a bridge instead of autonomy Mastery and purpose the basis of it is that there's
the psychological needs that need to be met um and those three major self psychological needs
are competency which you can see a link to Mastery competency autonomy and relatedness what a right
relatedness is is do children in a classroom feel part of a group do they feel part of something
bigger than themselves competency is Mastery and autonomy autonomy is a child's agency there um
do they feel motivated to act upon Free Will um so what I love the best as far as like practical
applications of self-determination theory is the idea that extrinsic rewards are a spectrum and
that extrinsic rewards aren't necessarily bad um when I first started doing Graduate School
uh for my Master's Degree I just got in certain research that confirmed my biases and I I
got into thinking I am only going to teach the intrinsic love of music and that's all
and I was so wrong but I was like I'm only going to teach an intrinsic love of music I'm
not going to be the golden stand guy I'm not going to hand out stickers because that's not
intrinsic motivation and I'm not going to do it um and so I I learned through a lot of mistakes
and being really stubborn about that actually that um that was wrong where actually the golden
stickers the golden stands all it is doing is it's an extrinsic reward but you're meeting children
where they're at do you want them to stay there no and and some people might cite some research well
you know the token economy the moment you start taking away those rewards motivation goes down but
the tote the problem with that argument is that um that that's not that's not looked into
like an educational sense as far as you're meeting children where they're at and trying to
progress them past that point so the hierarchy of extrinsic rewards would be something like a
kid's not motivated I don't try and ban so you give them a reward and they might say something I
work hard in band so I can get this reward then as your responsibility as an educator to move them
up the ladder in motivation you use that reward because eventually you're going to have to take
that reward away so what you're trying to get them to do is make a habit out of something so the
next level would be I try harder band because it's it's a habit okay we're still trying to work
towards that intrinsic love of music but at least they're doing it now they're sitting up correctly
they're holding their instruments correctly I'm not always rewarding I'm not always praising it
anymore but they're just doing it out of habits so I get to praise tone quality now you know um so
then the next level that you're trying to get them um two is I work hard in band because it
will make me better or it'll make my band better that's still an extrinsic reward but now
they're starting to internalize it nobody um it's something more internal I work hard in band
because I know it'll make me better I practice at home because I know it'll make me better so that's
at least better than I practice at home so I get a good grade which is a reward I practice at home
so because it's a habit now I practice at home because it'll make me better then the next level
higher than that would be I prep I work hard and ban because that's who I am I have pride in what
I I am the first chair player I am an All-State player I work that is my identity so now they're
getting really really high up on that motivational ladder and the only thing that's higher than
that is I work hard in band because I love music um kids will bounce all over that ladder kids will
go we'll we'll finish one day in class and go down um I just had a cop one Symphony concert where
I play saxophone and coblins and many concerts at uh for this Ensemble and I'll go home and
practice my part because I know it'll make me better where I'm like in that middle rung onto the
ladder or I'll practice my part because I have a lot of Pride I don't want my colleagues the whole
band's band directors I don't want my colleagues to hear me Miss notes and so that's going to be a
little bit different than I practice the glasnoff concerto because I love playing the glass and
I'll concerto or that I used to sound good 20 years ago playing the glass and off concertos
so I kind of want to remember that but um that latter part is is me being intrinsically motivated
but uh yeah I think it's our responsibility to use that information to start with the gold stickers
the gold stars the golden stands and to give them those rewards and use that as a carrot to go up
that ladder to hopefully where things become a habit or if they know that they're setting goals
where they know they have pride in themselves to ultimately they're doing something out of love for
music and that was like a Chris quick crash course of self-determination Theory and and the band
class and I could talk forever about that that was part of my dissertation um but I I hope I was
I was clear about very much thank you one of the motivations one of the motivation tools my wife
uses uses his band karate I assume you know band karate so if people haven't heard of band karate I
don't haven't used it yet even though my students at the high school want me to um you know where
you set aside however many belts you want per grade and then you know number 41 is the red belt
and number 62 is the green belt and whatever and then they they get the little color ribbon and
they put it on their instrument and and that's the whole thing and sometimes they get recognized
at content as well so ban karate I thought of that because that's one of the things we do here
in my town um all right teaching strategies they they love it yeah teaching strategies
that also help with classroom environment um I love this one that you said don't worry
about being behind oh I'm always right opening behind always teaching I'm glad we're doing this
I always teach them where they're at we are band teachers there are no National standardized tests
and nobody lays out the curriculum for us but us be sure we have evaluation but it's up to you
to choose a curriculum that the children will be successful at that's like programming 101
and I'm looking forward to uh learning more about that I I've worked hard on that a lot so
don't worry about being behind like you mean like the music's not ready for the concert we
are behind in learning the music or we're not good enough we're not playing hard enough music
or uh where you are in skills in the curriculum um very seldom do I ever finish book one of
sixth grade I I just don't care I don't care if I finished book one the entire year we just
finished where we finish and pick up the next year um because it's the most important thing is to
always meet the children where they are all right I I think when you start not doing that you might
be and maybe I'm being overly judgmental saying this but you might be doing it a little bit more
for yourself than for the children in front of you but I think it's really important to teach them
exactly where they're at can I ask you a question we just say book one does that mean in your
District you start instruments in sixth grade yes okay so you're like the where I came from
we didn't have Elementary band we started in middle school and that's where the whole ball
started rolling right and uh I agree with you you know you'd go to meetings with the multiple
band directors and say well we're on book it's uh June we're on book two uh page such and
such and I'm saying okay how do they play I hate and and you know and you don't nobody
knows what the obstacles every person has in their teaching environment that may slow things down but
quality supersedes quantity there's also people who like to say my band is playing this piece what
they really mean is that piece is in the band's folder they take it out and they're attempting to
play the piece but doesn't mean you're your ninth graders can play the whole Suite just because
you gave it to them and they're working on it right right um yeah and and and and what if what
if you're Pro what if you design your program where there's more of an exponential increase in
skill um one of my good friends and and he has fantastic program at Harrison High School he's the
director of bands at Harrison and um the marching band's incredible console programs incredible but
he always tells his kids we go really slow in the beginning so we can go Crazy Fast layer so we
can go super fast later and and for me I I take that as I just want to make sure everything's
correct I want to make sure the faces are right the embouchure are the right shape the instrument
holes are right I I want to make sure that's all correct so I am in no hurry to get through uh
book one essential elements book one sixth grade um I I was in a school district where we went to
school district meeting and and um that school district we all started in the seventh grade they
were Junior highs and um but it was a beginner band class and one of the band directors they said
yeah it was like January or February yeah we're in the middle of book two that's crazy maybe maybe
but it would be crazy for my kids and my teaching maybe they sound one I never heard them but I
just couldn't imagine myself in that position there's a couple districts in the state I'm
from that would have teacher evaluation based on a curriculum that said what page each kid
would do each week and the teacher we get a positive evaluation if they got to such page
and uh I always looked at that as well what are you putting first the development of the
child or a piece of paper to say that you're going to get a good evaluation right and they
they they agreed but they couldn't fight back because the district supervisor said that's how
I'm going to evaluate you as a teacher and uh they readily admitted that their attrition
rate from middle school through high school was enormous because the kids couldn't meet the
expectation of where they had to be in ninth grade in high school right and unfortunately
that's what we do Nationwide a math teachers it is they they are all told what to talk when and
and they don't have the same kind of autonomy over their curriculum that we do and the fact that
we have that in for the most part most school districts most of us is pretty hands off and we
create our curriculum that's a huge advantage So speaking of curriculum I'd like to close
here with I haven't prepared you for this but um I'd like you to share any band pieces
at the middle school level that come to mind that you think people should know that
you really like whether kids just really like them or they are great teaching pieces I'm
going to throw one out that I really like by Gene Milford called Royal Oak I think that's a
a wonderful piece of music um Jeff are there are there any that come to your mind I know you
haven't taught Middle School in a long time but even Variations by John kakovis oh yeah
okay wow um I love the um Carl king um that Hall series Heritage of the March series that
Swearingen wrote and they're all black covered I I think it's so they're so easy to teach it's so
easy to get bands to sound good playing them and the kids enjoy them I love those marches um Bob
Sheldon has a whole series of um of ballads that are like grade one grade two ballads American hand
tune Dorian Dreamscape he's got like five of them um that are really really easy for young bands to
play lyrical Legato style and um Brian balmages has some too uh Rippling watercolors is like that
uh which we've already played my co-worker has to tell me no when when I'm like every year I I just
let's play Rippling watercolors Robert we just did that so he he puts his foot down and tells me no
but it always comes up in conversation um I love Claire Grumman Kentucky 1800 for an eighth grade
band um that's a pretty mature eighth grade band um I I think that is a great band work uh
that's approachable for them and then going back to Sheldon um God long Longford Legend but a
little bit easier version of that is what's that um one that's the little easier version of
Longford Legend I don't know it's in sixth eight um oh it will probably come to me after
this podcast of course yeah well you mentioned two of my favorite band pieces in passing one is
conduct 1800 and another one is Longford Legend yeah so great thank you for sharing that anything
you want to mention before we take off for the day well I think we went over a lot um I do want to
say um that everything I talked about is not my stuff or stuff I came up with I've just watched
people a lot better than me or read stuff from people a lot smarter than me and all I've really
done for these presentations is put the ideas together but um I've really appreciate the invite
and appreciate the conversation we had today we sincerely appreciate you taking your valuable
time and listening to the growing band director podcast your students are very lucky to have a
band director like you if you have any suggestions for episode topics or think you have an area of
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