Transcript for:
Insights from The Ben and Ali Show

I literally just said be quiet Ali and then you laughed at the start of our podcast. There's just this right at the start of the podcast. Thanks for that Ali. I said all quiet. I'd be the worst actor. Action. And it's like. Heavy breathing. Mouth breather. Welcome to the Ben and Ali show. This week we're actually, we're reviewing a really. Epic book. And I love the way you described it just before we started the session. How did you describe this book, Ali? That was like minutes ago, so I've already forgotten. But I think it was the godfather OG of professional development and self-help books. And the book that we're talking about is How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. I really think it is that. I think Dale was one of the first few people who were studying very successful people. And... Just the fact that this book was written when it was written. I mean, when was this book written, actually? I'm not sure. Well, I've had this for at least 10 years, and it says over 70 years in print. So what was it? It was probably in the 40s. I'm literally typing this into the computer. October 1936. There you go. That's when he wrote this book. And this is the way I think about it, right? If I've read this book, And you didn't read this book. I have a massive advantage over you in life, professionally, personally, in every sense. Yeah. Don't you think so? I mean, if I've consumed this book and I actually take the content and the nuggets and I apply it, I have a mad advantage over you. I'll get way further than you in life. It's, yeah, let's jump into it, but it's crazy the hacks that this gives to us. Like, I remember even as we... We're reading this book and I haven't read it in a few years now. I was just thinking about you in particular and what you do as a communications expert and in your field. And for me in the entrepreneurship world, I always feel like the four-hour work week is nearly one of the big books for people that start like online businesses or passion-based businesses maybe in the last 10 years or so. When I was reading this, I was like, well, out of anyone that I know, you practice this book better than anyone that I've ever met. So I always... pretty pumped to jump into this with you and really get your insights. I don't even know if you realize it or not. It might be very subconscious or you just naturally like that. But yeah, I was like, did you write this book? No, I'll tell you this. I'll be really transparent to you. When I read this book again, and actually I want to find out how you got the book as well. I think that's really cool. Yeah. And I, cause I want to share with you how I received this book in my life. But what's, what's crazy is as I was reading it and taking notes, for this podcast, I kind of had to stop myself from writing so many examples because I found myself going, oh yeah, I do that. Oh yeah, I do that too. And then I just felt like an arrogant wanker going through this going, oh, look at me. I do all of this. I'm amazing. So I had to tone down on this. I completely agree with what you've said. It's basically as if I've wrote this, but I think it's really more that I've read this so many times and every time I read it, Or this time I listened to it. And I remember listening to it this time, just listening to the same lessons again and going, oh my God, that is so true. And I say that almost with every single part of it. Yes, it still holds up. That's pretty cool. Because sometimes books, when you do practice them a lot, their impact nearly becomes diluted. So that's really interesting that as you reread this, it was more a reminder of some of the lessons. Yeah. How I came across this book, not as interesting. I think I Googled- Maybe like 10 years ago, I was Googled the top five business books, and this always is in the top five. So it was purely just a review-based blog, then put it across my desk. But yeah, once you read it, it is a game changer. This book came into my hands when I was about 15 years old. My uncle, Car, yeah, my uncle, he's not a vehicle. He's actually a person. My uncle, Car, he came and gave me this book when I was in my mid-teens. And I remember him just saying, and he was in his late 20s, early 30s, and he just said, you have to read this. And I obviously didn't read it. So I didn't read it at the age of 15. I left it for a year. And he'd come back the following year and asked me if I'd read it. And I lost the book. He bought it for me again. What 15-year-old reads a professional development book? Exactly, exactly. But I remember this. My uncle was so... adamant that i read this that he came to my house every thursday and i still remember it was thursdays because it was late night shopping night and he would ask me about chapter one and i felt so peer pressured into reading it that when i was about 16 17 i actually read the whole book i don't think any of it got into my head because i i just i was reading it like it was a school project it was just it sucked but subconsciously i started to absorb some of these things and i didn't read it again in a meaningful way until i was in my early 20s similar to you right And when I read it in my early 20s, that's the second time when I went, wow, a couple of these things actually, I absorbed the lessons and I applied some of them. And I think that's what helped me immensely in my early entrepreneurial ventures when I was in my late teens. A lot of that I credit to this book. Yeah. And going back to your uncle, I'm guessing he would have like, was like English as a second language. And he's then using this third language. Is he using this book to essentially establish himself in Australia or like, how was he implementing it back then? My uncle, my uncle Cara is one of the youngest uncles in the family and the only one that went through university. So all of my dad's brothers all worked really hard to help him through university and helped him with his first pharmacy. And he went through every single year of pharmacy twice. And I remember at the time, I was like, why, uncle? How come you're so stupid? And now I'm being older, of course, you understand. He goes, well, it was because I was trying to learn the English language at the same time that I was trying to complete the university degree. And I went, damn. I knew the language and couldn't even complete a degree. An amazing thing that he achieved. So he was one of my very few uncles who actually you know, went on that journey of self-development. Whereas my dad and his other brothers, they went down the path of just hard work and labor, right? They didn't really go down that self-development personal journey. That's why they didn't multiply their ability to, they didn't multiply their financial gains. They didn't multiply their, you know, their wealth. Whereas my uncle Carl was able to do that because he invested in himself and he went down that personal development journey. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, no. Well, look, let's get into this book. I'll start with one. The first one that I remember, I mean, this is pretty much the first one in the book, I think. It was, don't criticize, condemn, or complain. Human nature does not like to admit fault. When people are criticized or humiliated, they rarely respond well and often will become defensive and resent the critic. When I heard this again. I kind of had this feeling that, well, do you, should you, should you never criticize? Like, ever? And then that's what I, I kind of sat with it for a moment. And I realized that there's a difference between criticizing and giving feedback. I think we should give feedback. I think, sure, I agree with the author that maybe we shouldn't ever criticize. But really, we should give feedback though. And don't confuse that feedback is criticism. They're different things. So I actually just Googled it really quickly. And it says that criticism focuses almost entirely on the problem. It points out the problem often many times without providing suggestions or practical workable solutions. Whereas feedback focuses on recognizing the problem and then working with the recipient to come up with ways to resolve the issue. So I think, again, I've had many of these experiences where people say to me that, oh, that recent piece of content you put out was really lame. And that's it. And it's like, okay, well, thanks for your criticism, but no thank you. Because again, feedback is way more useful, right? Dear Vin, I don't like your face. Can you create a new face for your upcoming video? Hey, but that's feedback. That's feedback. That person actually gave me. That's feedback, Ali. That's my burner account. It's just so naturally inbuilt that I'm going to always give you constructive criticism. That's right. And then next week I come and I've just had plastic surgery and I look like a different person. But that's, I remember reading this earlier on because I've read this so many times now, feeling a little bit weird about it because I didn't understand the difference between criticism and feedback, right? Yeah. Is don't just blatantly criticize people. Heck, I mean, if you're going to take the time to do that, at least give some constructive feedback. And I think there's a very big difference when... It's more just a personal judgment versus it being something constructive, you know? And again, this is the real beauty of this book. Like, you've always got to think back to when this book was written. It was written in 1936 and you think about the evolution even now of how people give feedback. It's not that far off what it recommends there, right? Because the way that I read that bit is it's essentially saying that if you're trying to influence someone or you're trying to win them over, you've got to be pretty careful with your judgments on that person unless it's got a lot of context. And nowadays, I think the modern way, we call it the shit sandwich, right? That's the most common way of giving feedback, where it's clouded in a couple of nice things and then the actual true part of the feedback is wedged somewhere in the middle of the sandwich and hopefully it makes it taste a little... Less bad than just a completely shit feedback sandwich. I don't know if that's the analogy or not. This is where you jump in. Save me. I'm drowning in this shit sandwich analogy. No, I'm just going to let you drown. You can drown. We're so early into this episode too. I ain't no lifesaver. I'm not going to jump into this one. What I will say, what I will say is... When I used to give feedback and sometimes would accidentally criticize, it was when I was teaching communication. So when I first started out teaching communication and I would get one of my students on stage and then they'd do a three-minute bit and I would then give them feedback afterwards or again, sometimes accidentally criticize. And I remember I did it in such a bad way because I thought my job was to point out all of their bad. Because I thought, well, that's why you paid me. You paid me so I could tell you what the problem is. I could tell you what's going wrong. I mean, surely you know what you're doing well, right? And the reality is it wasn't true. And I remember how I learned this. Because after I gave all this really tough feedback and criticism, I'm just going to say again, because I think that's what I did. I remember the student looking at me, just looking completely destroyed. And then they said, do you think I did anything well, Vin? And I was like, oh, that is so sad. That is so sad. Yes, there were things that you did well. There were so many things you did well. You were like, nah, it was terrible. It was a shit sandwich with shit, shit, and shit. It was, yeah, no. And I felt terrible because that's when I learned that. What's interesting about what you just said was that a shit sandwich shouldn't just be a shit sandwich because that's how you strategically win people over. But it's actually... the case in reality that people often don't know what they're doing well. They actually don't know what they're doing well. We often don't just lack self-awareness on the things that we're doing terribly. We often lack self-awareness on the things we're doing really well. So to me, giving feedback is not just about pointing out the bad. It's about learning how to point out the good as well. And whether you do it in a sandwich formation or whatever formation you want to do. Yeah. I think it's important to recognize that they're both important because people often are unaware of their strengths and their weaknesses. For sure. And I think there's always a risk with negative feedback or criticism, whatever you want to call it. Because depending on the personality type and how comfortable that person is in receiving that feedback or even how deep the relationship is, that will have an impact. on the level that you can go with. And I think a lot of leaders make that mistake where the relationship capital maybe isn't built up and they'll openly be giving what they think is constructive criticism and feedback, but that other person's just shutting down or closing off just because, yeah, there maybe isn't that element of safety or there isn't enough credits in the bank. I kind of view it a little bit like a ledger is a person's going to remember something negative or a judgment. maybe three to five times more than something positive that you tell them. So you've got to be pretty careful that there's counterbalances with that form of, yeah, judgment or way of improvement. I want to say as well that don't be so afraid to give feedback because, you know, once people learn this lesson from Dale, it's very easy to go, well, I'm never going to criticize. I'm never going to give any feedback. And I really believe that an important part of leadership is we need to be able to give feedback. And... One of the books I've read from one of my dad's mentors, actually, it's called, it's a communication book by Thay Thich Nhat Hanh, which is a Buddhist monk. And he wrote that when you say things, are you saying it with the melody of love? And what I mean is when you critique someone or when you, you know, hopefully not critique, but giving feedback, how are you actually saying it? What melody lives underneath your voice when you're saying that? You know, are you saying it like... I love that. You've got to be better, John. You've got to improve. You've got to pick up. You've got to bloody pull up your damn socks, mate, and pull your weight, right? If you're saying it with that kind of melody, damn, I mean, that's going to crush my soul, right? Whereas if you're saying it with a melody of love and you prime as well, you use another concept in psychology called priming, prime the person before you give them the feedback. And what I often do with my students is I say, hey, look, I'm just going to share some thoughts here where I want you to take these and let it empower you. Don't let these cripple you. Take this opportunity now and allow the next things that I say to empower you so you can amplify the best parts of who you are. So look, the first thing you can do is this. The second thing, and the third. And I say it with an encouraging melody, a melody that's filled with love and care. So to me, it's... It's also about how you deliver the feedback and also by priming the person, you help the feedback go down easy. Otherwise, if you're saying it in a mean way and you don't prime them, then it literally is eating a shit sandwich and no one wants to eat a shit sandwich, even if it's a sandwich. Couldn't agree more with that. I love that. I love the element of the undercurrent of, yeah, place of care, compassion, love, I think. People feel that. So much of feedback is probably also in the nonverbal as it is in the actual words and the objective nature of it. With yourself, do you think you're better with the carrot or the stick? What do you respond to more? I actually have no idea what you mean by that metaphor. What do you mean by that? Do I want to eat the carrot or does a stick hit me? That's right. Yeah. So, one of the theories is like you can provide, you can influence people by giving them a carrot, like the reward. Right. Playing to the upside. Or you can go that army general, you know, the coach, the angry coach type, which is the stick. And I don't know if it's outdated psychology now, but. And I'm sure there's lots of studies there where some people probably react a little bit more potentially to the fear of banishment or punishment and then others or discipline and then others react better to being empowered and the upside. Now, I think in modern day, we would say that. The disciplinary or authoritarian type of approach is probably a little bit outdated. I'm not sure if it's still used. I'm sure it's used in certain areas and organisations and companies and countries, but it seems like the new age version is very much like let's build up and go the carrot approach do you know what you would align with more well first of all i just want to say the reason i was confused is because normally they say dangle the carrot in front of the donkey and the way they'll dangle it is they put it on a stick and a string so i thought you're it's like what are you it's the same thing yeah now now i understand that the stick is for whacking carrots for eating i i i love the carrot but I also know I need the stick, right? And it's because I react really well to reward. Show me a really good shiny reward and I'm motivated, I'm pumped. I'm also aware enough to know that there are times when I need the stick. And this is just for my family growing up. My family had grown up in the 80s in a Vietnamese family who are refugees, just came here, scarcity, still driven by fear. Oh yeah, I got smacked. Yeah. Yeah, and I remember with a fly swat, a stick, whatever they could find at their disposal. With a donkey holding a carrot tied to a stick. I wouldn't put it past them. They've probably done it before. But it's crazy because I was so naughty when I was young that... I don't know if it would have been possible to, I don't know if there was any kind of carrot that you could have dangled in front of me as a kid for me to get in line because I needed a fence. If there was no fence to tell me right from wrong, if my dad didn't put his foot down sometimes, and I don't know if this is just kind of that, that's, you know, when the survivor falls in love with the person that took him hostage. Yeah, I don't know if I'm just suffering from Stockholm syndrome with my dad. Back then. I mean, he's the kindest person now, but I really believed. He just went, you know what? This is a fence and you can't go past this. And I needed that fence because I believed that if that fence wasn't there, I would have fallen off the edge of the cliff. And I had mad potential to be a terrible human being. Probably still have that potential, but it's just, I've got these... rails around me to stop me from just falling off the edge of the cliff and i and i and i would have gone really far if my dad didn't use the stick analogy i mean it's not an analogy it's quite literal but i feel there wasn't enough carrot when i was young i think that there was more carrot that would have been awesome so i reckon the real answer is both what about you i think i definitely never responded I don't know. If I think about the stick, I think the stick's like a Red Bull shot. For me, it was very short term, but it could lead to quite crazy action. Not because I feared the stick, but because I wanted to snap the stick and then... beat the attacker with it by proving them that, you know, you tried to hit me with the stick. So here we go. Let's play stick. That was kind of my, like, you know, like in the fight or flight type of analogy. So the stick, I think, for a large part of my life, was a pretty good driver. And I think we've spoken about this as well, where it was like, oh, and maybe it's got linkages to wanting to exceed expectations. So I always viewed the stick as like a barrier to overcome. And then the carrot, the carrots. for me had to be very internally driven so it was hard for somebody to come with their own type of carrot as an enticement even probably that's just growing up as an only child and not having to engage in too much of a collective environment I think I had to create my own sort of carrots as motivators and then that's probably my ideal situation is that if I'm if I've sold myself in a story with my own carrot that will probably be my most sustained form of influence and motivation and energy. I think what you just said, actually, I believe what you just said is the root of all problems that many of us suffer from. When you allow others to dangle a carrot in front of you and your carrot is not internally driven and internally aligned, that's the quickest way to unhappiness, right? It's when we allow our boss to say, hey, if you... Do X, Y, and Z, carrot, carrot, carrot. I'll give you a promotion into this particular position. And that position may not even be what you want, but because of the carrots in the form of money, in the form of power, in the form of labels, whatever, you chase them. And at the end of that, you're like, oh man, I've got so many carrots now, but I don't even like carrots. You know, and now you're stuck in a position where you don't want to be in. So I think it's important to realize that the carrots that you dangle in front of yourself, Need to be just that. It's the ones that you dangle in front of yourself, not the ones that other people dangle in front of you. For sure. I think external or call it other people's carrots, they're very short term in how long they fill you up for. Yeah, I think it's the same with even jobs, right? Like if you get that, like so many times, I think internally we tell ourselves a story that if I just get that pay rise, it's going to be amazing. But then two months later, that job, if it's still a crap job, that... 5% pay rise isn't going to change that. You're not going to be able to transform that into any deeper level of happiness, or it's going to be very hard to, unless that raise is linked to something that has a significant impact on your life. Whereas if you look at the corporate world, the general rule of thumb is ultimately it's the golden handcuffs. If you've got so many people staying in that corporate ladder, because it's, Every year or two, there's a performance review. You get a little increase, more hours, more time. And I think that's what we're seeing now as well is that, yeah, that's one form of value. But again, it's probably an outdated one where people just need so much more now in terms of meaning. being passionate about what they're doing, internal growth, working with a good team. I don't think the carrots or call it the conventional material carrots are enough anymore. I will say though, that there are some amazing companies out there where they help their people align the carrots within the company. You know, I used to fully adopt that mindset too, but you know that I kind of work in the corporate space a lot and you're right. There are a lot of companies that don't do it well. But I think these companies are realizing now that to retain great people, we need to dangle carrots that are more meaningful. We need to create a workplace that is filled with more purpose. And just seeing some of these companies that I'm working with doing it now, it's pretty inspiring. It's pretty inspiring. And I recognize that you've got to remember too, that the path that we take, it's so easy for us to make it really romantic. But you've got to remember the times that we message each other freaking out about certain things that, oh no, is this going to happen? Is that going to happen? I mean, this year alone, I've been in the fetal position at least twice and you were there for one of them. Giving hugs. Yeah, absolutely. You were the small spoon, let's just clarify. Well, that was a deep dive on that topic. I like that. Carrots. Do you have one you want to bring up? Yeah, carrots. All right. We tag-teamed this. Let's do it. Oh, I love this. See, this is even before the book even starts. Okay. At the start of this book, he gives a guide on how to read the book. And again, this blew my mind that he put this together in 1936, but it's still probably one of the best guides that I've seen of how to read a nonfiction book. And it goes through like, I think it's six to nine steps, but I'll kind of summarize and condense this. But he says, when you open this book, first of all, get into the mindset of having a deep desire to learn. Step one. Step two, read the book rapidly the first time. So go through it as quickly as you can, pick out the bits that stand out. Then it says, stop and think about what you're reading and think about how you can apply it. Now, this is phenomenal because he was talking about the application of knowledge and taking action back then, whereas I've very rarely seen that. Like out of all these books behind me right now, there's maybe five that actually give you a guide around how to read the book and then execute the knowledge within it. And then step four, highlight the book. And there was a few other steps there as well. But I think just even those four steps as a core foundation, if you're reading any development book or educational book, university book, whatever it is, how cool is that as a little framework of how to extract the knowledge from a book like that? I would love to add one to that. And the one I would add is from Naval, who says that if you read a chapter and it's not relevant to you right now in your life, feel free to skip that chapter. Skip it. And if you do those five things, learning now becomes fun again. And I think that one by Naval is so important. The reason why so many people get put off learning is because they picked up a book on a topic that they feel that they could learn from. And then they get stuck in a chapter about how to, you know, I don't know. how to invest in super. And they're like, oh, and you know, they're 16. It's okay. You don't, maybe don't have to worry about that just yet. Then you can, you can skip that chapter, for example, right? So, it's, yeah, don't get bogged down by things that aren't relevant to you in your current life and feel free to skip a chapter too. For sure. That is really powerful, bro. Even just at the start of it, like the biggest point out of those that I took away that I think I've been missing a little bit lately is why am I reading this book? And generally when we get drawn to a book, there is a reason. And the more clear that reason is, I think that's how you can extract the most value from it. Like even if I think back to the hundreds of books that I've read, the ones that have been the most powerful are the ones that have been timed with... Nearly immediate implementation. Like say, for example, if I was reading a book, like a Seth Godin marketing book, but we had a marketing campaign to execute that week and I had a knowledge gap. Like I knew exactly why I'm reading this thing and you're nearly then searching for some of the answers. So there's maybe a little bit of both there, but yeah. I think it just triggers your brain to find those gold nuggets a little bit more too that you need at that given time. I also think that what you talked about there is something that most people don't do. I mean, to our listeners right now, how many of you out there, when you encounter a problem, actually go onto Amazon or whatever your favorite bookstore is and search for a book to help you solve the problem you're going through? That's just not a common thought. That's not a common thought process that people have. For example, business owners, I spend a lot of time around entrepreneurs. Okay, in this whole new world, they were a traditional business and they need to go online and they can't seem to get leads online. They don't immediately think to go buy books on how to generate leads online. Instead, they kind of experiment in their own way and try to push through it and continue failing and then often just complain how hard things are. The moment we get sick, we go to see a doctor. The moment your roof leaks, you call the roof doctor. The moment you need to get the sprinklers done around your house, you call an irrigation expert. But the thing is, you've got to understand when you're going through a finance problem, a relationship problem, you can actually buy an expert for 15 bucks, 20 bucks, and within two weeks, learn everything there is to learn about that problem. Yeah. And- I don't think there is a problem that hasn't been written about. But often we'll have a situation that we're dealing with and it will nearly feel like, oh my god, surely I'm the only person going through this until you think about it. And then you do a quick Google search and it's like, oh wow, somebody's written 100 books about this exact same problem that I'm going through right now. So comforting. Yeah, just like a recipe. There's a method nearly to solve for everything if you go and search. Like, lack of information is not a problem that we have to deal with in this modern age. It is readily available. But I think the tricking our ego or pride into knowing that it's okay to go and search for that knowledge is probably the thing that we battle. Going back to your point. Hey, when my wife was, I don't know if you saw this social media post of mine last night, but she cooked seriously the best pasta I've ever eaten in the 34 years of my life. Yeah, wow. Okay, I licked that plate so clean that we didn't need to wash it. We just put it straight back into the drawer. And what's crazy was- I did see that, but you didn't share a photo of the actual pasta. All you shared was the empty plate. I ate it so fast and I cleared the whole pot. I went for seconds and thirds and then I went, I should have taken a photo. this is the best thing and so the next best thing i could do was take a picture of the empty plate the empty pot it's just not bloody amazing that's like the equivalent of going to the eiffel tower and being like i just saw the best thing ever but then you take a photo off just the grass sort of near the eiffel tower you know just imagine how good this is you can't eat the eiffel tower bro if you could eat the eiffel tower that would be the same situation now here's the thing that's here's the thing that that was interesting it was it was one thing she did last night that changed the whole consistency of the sauce, that made the sauce stick to the pasta in a way that it's never stuck to the pasta before. And she learned this from an incredible chef, right? And all it was, was that the water that you cook the pasta in, use some of that water to make the sauce. Because before, the sauce she would make would taste delicious. However, it just never stuck to the pasta. You know, when you get the strand of pasta and there's a thick bit of sauce on it, you eat it and it's just creamy, it's spicy, it's, ah! And that's all she did. And she learned that from a really, really popular chef. So imagine she didn't learn that. We both would have went through life not experiencing pasta the way we experienced it last night. But the fact that she gained that one piece of knowledge, it completely changed the trajectory of my taste buds for the rest of my entire life. Right? It's life-changing. Now, imagine that same thing. You could be learning one intricate thing that changes the course of your professional life. a course of your entrepreneurial business. But it has to come down to, we need to start adopting the mindset, just like what Dale says, is why are you learning? And I think the best why is, if we just sit down in our lives right now and go, what areas of my life do I want to improve? And then find a book for each one of those areas, as opposed to what we normally do is we go, what are the best sellers right now? And if you look up what are the best sellers, the best sellers are not aligned with what you need in your life, right? I mean, what if the best seller right now is Harry Potter? It's not because it's an old series, but what if it was? Am I just going to buy that and read it? I don't know. I just think that if we let, if we allow what's popular dictate what we consume. then there's potentially no alignment there. It's not just about reading a book that is good. It's about reading a book that is good for you. Yep. And Amazon's kind of taken out the guesswork. Like, if you see a book that's got 2,500 five-star reviews, you can confidently go into that book knowing that it's going to deliver what it says it's going to deliver. Like gone are the days where you go browsing and because I used to hate that, the risk of committing to a 500 page book and not knowing whether it's going to actually provide me with the information that I want. Whereas nowadays it's so easy also to just even see prior to reading the book. All right, well, you get a really good book summary. You get to see, you know, what other people got out of it. And it's like, oh yeah, wow. As soon as I get a validation that two, three other people. got the thing that I'm looking for within that book. That's a pretty easy purchase. And then you were just waiting for that moment where you get the nugget. I still just want to push the point that, sure, it's really easy to find books that have really high reviews, but again, just make sure it's super aligned to you right now. For sure. Because if your why is strong, you're actually going to read the book. You'll complete the book and you'll read it with more intensity, right? It's, yeah, again, I think... Love that point you brought up. Love that Dale mentions that. And that highlighting part I think is really powerful too. The books that I highlight are the books I often go back to. And you forget these things so quickly. Yeah. No, I love it. That's awesome. Let's stay on the theme of taking action based on this book, and then maybe we'll dig into some of the actual theories and principles a little bit more. But I've got a story of how when I first read this book, I actually executed something out of it straight away. So I was working in a gig. This was probably, I think, maybe 10 years ago now. It would have been probably longer, 10, 12 years ago. And my contract was coming up. I was in a temporary role. I was working for two guys that, yeah, just probably didn't align with too much, but very egotistical, out there, brash, confident guys. And I'm like, okay, well, if I want to stay in this space, I'm going to have to think of something outside the square. Lo and behold, this book comes across my way. And... We're going through trying to get a contract approved for a special program. You know, it just wasn't happening. And in the space that I worked in, it always took a while to get these roles approved and to go through that process. So after reading this, I'm like, okay, well, let's see if we can try a different way here. So I just drafted an email and it's like, dear, blah, blah, blah. You know, first of all, I just want to tell you just how much I've admired you and the impact that you've had in our industry and in our space over the years. I think that what you're doing is exceptional and I'm sure you probably don't get the acknowledgement or the recognition that you deserve for that. And then it was like, I think that you do need a legacy play to really put a nice finale on this 10, 20 year career and that we should develop this program. And then I think we should also then name part of the scholarship after you as recognition of your legacy and impact in this space. I'll obviously do all the work. I'll be just behind the signs. behind the scenes person, you'll get all the acknowledgement, all the credit. And I'm like, all right, like, again, it goes against being completely sincere with your praise, but I'm like, let's just try, let's just try what this book can execute. So we're going months through this approval process. There's no rapport. There's nothing in you. This person's like three levels more senior than what I am. About four hours later, I get a call into the office and it's like, Can't believe that we have people like you working in our organization. And I never even knew that, you know, you had this potential. It's like I've put in a recommendation for this to get approved immediately. We'll start the program next week. Got like $400,000 worth of funding within like two weeks. And then off we went. And that was probably one of like the starting points of my career in that industry. So I'm like, wow, one email just. with some of these principles and again we'll go through the principles but the principles were like using that person's name showing appreciation the appreciation was even though i didn't potentially like that person that much the appreciation was genuine like it did make sense that person did have an impact in those areas that i mentioned um but yeah just playing on i remember the chapter in the thing like the most important thing to most people is their name and putting their name into lights and The other big aspect is people want to feel great. Most people have an innate desire to feel great. So again, if you're working for someone that has a little bit of an ego, maybe a bit insecure about their position within the space, that is one awesome way to align with a person who is in potentially undeserved levels of power within your organization that you can then help use leverage in. Yeah. I love it. That's such a powerful example. Far out. So you read the book, you applied it immediately, and that's the kind of result you were able to achieve. That's ridiculous, man. It blew my mind. And I only remember this story like the other day. I completely forgot about doing this until I was reading it. I'm like, ah. Because it just happened that simply that I never even gave it any credit. In an absolute similar scale, I did something very similar to you. And what I did was what I did last night with the pastor. I was so appreciative. This is the same level, obviously. I was so appreciative of Pei Wen's pastor that I made a social media post about it. And I was like broadcasting how amazing this pastor was. And it got so many likes and people were leaving comments. And And I could tell she felt so chuffed about it. She was like, you know, he just went, I'm one of the best cooks in the world. And I could tell she was super chuffed about this. And guess what? Guess what happened today? More pasta. I'm getting one of my favorite congee dishes for lunch right after this podcast. Sure, you got hundreds of thousands of dollars. I didn't get hundreds of thousands of dollars. I got a program that was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. I got thousands of dollars. I got a job as a young guy, which is amazing. You got a job. I'm about to get one of my favorite congee dishes because I showed a little bit of extra. And I know this to be a fact. If I, maybe if I didn't do that last night, showed appreciation. And I think, again, if it's sincere and it's honest, then I'm getting a really good dish today. If not, I probably would be eating a sandwich that I'm making myself later this afternoon, which would just be, which would be a little bit sad. So we're both monsters. We're just using this book for, maybe there's a warning on this book. No, but my, my appreciation was, it was really sincere, man. And I think, I think I'll tell you this as well. Sorry to jump in. Sorry, not sorry. My culture, in the Asian culture, we lack expression. For sure. Hands down. I know this to be fact, because I'm Asian. And being raised in an Asian family, I don't often hear the words, hey, I appreciate you. Hey, thank you. Hey, I love you. Hey, I'm proud of you. We're not as expressive. We express our gratitude and our love through actions, not words. And I believe that people need words like plants need water. Like, I just believe that. Words can heal. Words can inspire. Words can crush. And the lack of words can cause people to wilt or away. So, I really feel that just appreciation to me, I've just psychologically internalized that as it's water for people and people are plants. And people need water to grow. So when you feel it, don't assume the other person knows it. I think the reason why we don't appreciate people as much and share those thoughts is because they go, oh, well, they know I love them. I don't need to say it. I don't need to say it. Well, they know I appreciate them. Why should I say it? That's the classic line in my culture. Of course, they know I appreciate them. It's my child. If I didn't appreciate them, they'll be dead. Of course, I love them. So to me, let's not make these assumptions, which based on the books we already reviewed called The Four Agreements, go check that podcast out. It's amazing. But don't make any assumptions and share the things when you feel them. The moment you feel appreciation, share it and be generous with it. Don't be a tight ass with your appreciation, damn it. Why do you think that is? Why don't we do that more often? Or most people don't do it. One of the reasons I think is because people assume that the other person knows it. You know, it's- You think there's a fear of rejection as well? That if I put myself out there- Rejection of appreciation? Yeah, or like I'm putting myself out here because again, I feel like it's nearly, you always speak about energy. But I think people are nearly self-conscious of, you know, and we've done a few books on vulnerability and being open and compassion. It nearly feels that if you are in a bit of a scarcity mindset or a fear-based mindset, it's pretty hard to go and then openly show that appreciation or to put yourself out there when maybe you're not feeling it towards yourself. Okay, I think you're talking to a deeper problem here. Tell me more. Because it is strange, right? Like, well, it's so simple to just sit there and tell people, like to show appreciation. But even again, when I look at it, if you think about 20, 30 people in your circle, how many people consistently show appreciation and water that plant verbally? You. you via you via text you do it really well you don't do it verbally because you text it to me and for our entire friendship i don't think you've left me one voice message and i leave you voice message almost on the daily so just kind of putting that out there some feedback for this friendship Well, I'm a writer. Yeah, okay, sure. Yeah, okay. That's fine. Keyboard warrior with appreciation. Can't do it face to face. I will wake up at least once or twice a week where there'll be this epic bromance message from you and it will start something like, hey, bro, just had a crazy morning doing a bit of journaling and, you know, knowing you, Wim Hof in cold shower, you know what I mean? And then there'll just be this beautiful message of, love and appreciation, how you appreciate this friendship. And then I'll send you back this beautiful voice message filled with emotion. Yeah. As I read your cold message, because when I read your messages, it's just. hi vian monotone really appreciate you just want you to know love you bro yeah that's exactly how i'm saying it in my head is that exactly how you say they're just canned responses like they're pre-written messages that i just copy and paste hey how you going you you good guy vin like lots yes And sometimes it doesn't even spell my name. You pasted it. Hey, Jeremy, you're an amazing employee. I love you. Thank you for working so hard. Love the recent campaign you did. look forward to catching up for the next podcast episode love you honey see you for dinner this evening whoa a lot of systems got crossed there bro thanks for looking after the kids today and picking them up because I couldn't and everyone just gets that same message just a group email something in there for everyone something in there for everyone that's absolutely true what I think to bring this back to point is What you're saying is why don't I think people share appreciation more? I think there's many problems. One you're saying is kind of more internal. I think another one that I just thought of is that some people think this is a form of manipulation. Some people will literally think that, well, I don't want to do that because then the other person is going to think I'm trying to manipulate them, that I want something. That's not genuine. Yeah. I really think there is a negative view of appreciation. appreciation for some people because they view it as, oh, that's being snake oily. You're trying to manipulate me. So there's that. I also think some people don't receive it well. So maybe they've tried to show appreciation to someone and that other person just didn't take it very well because they thought it was negative too. I mean, I'll tell you this. I know some people in my life now where when I genuinely share appreciation for them, they just keep throwing it in the bin. Yeah. They keep taking it and throwing it in the bin. So I go, oh, hey. hey, I just wanted to say what you did for me last week, that meant so much. But they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's nothing. It's nothing. No, no, no. Don't, don't, don't, don't. And what they don't realize is that they've just taken this beautiful gift that's taken me hours to put together and think about, and they just put it in the trash. And then that makes me go, well, I don't want to do it anymore because people don't want it. There's so many angles about this. Yeah, that's that rejection part of it. I think it's the same with compliments because most people are pretty, call it humble in the way that they accept compliments. Like, I don't think a lot of people know how to take a compliment. So then you're right, because if you then feel like that when somebody gives you a compliment, then you're probably like, geez, I don't want to make somebody else feel like that when I give them one. And then they have to sit in the uncomfort of the compliment. Like, even if you think about just guys and groups of guys, for example, like how much easier is it to give your mates crap? than it is to tell them, hey, thanks for all that cool stuff that you did over 10 years of friendship. I love you lots. They'll be like, are you dying? Like, what's going on? Yeah. How do you take a compliment? Really well. No, well, because- Bask in it, bathe in it. Yeah. Well, but it's because I recognize- the value behind it. I'm going to read you a message right now. I'm going to read you a message that I got on Instagram today from a student of mine. Her name is Jordan Phipps. And she says, Hey Vin, so much love for you. I wish you understood the capacity in which you changed my life. Today I'm attending the seminar, et cetera. And then she just goes on to write this beautiful message about how I've had impact in her life. Normally I would say, no, no, no, look, it's not me. It's all you. And I just kind of, I don't accept it. Whereas now I made her a voice message filled with emotion and love. Things that you don't do. Hey, Ali, thanks for the message. Just sending the same one. But instead of that, I said to her, I appreciate you so much taking the time to help me understand the impact that I've had in your life. You know, it really means a lot to me because. As you explain it to me, only then do I truly understand the impact that I've had. And I feel so good knowing that I've had impact in your life in the way that you described. And what I'm doing there is I'm unwrapping the present and I'm enjoying the surprise and I'm absorbing the gift. It reminds me of that saying that people say where it's... It's only when you love yourself do you have the capacity to love others with all your might, right? When you can't appreciate yourself and you don't love yourself. It's so hard for you to truly love other people. And I feel like I only am starting to unravel that sentence. Now, it was before and I read it, I was like, oh, that's so cheesy. It makes me want to die. But now I kind of go, I actually kind of get that now. Only when you truly understand your own value, can you really value others? I don't know. I receive appreciation and love, I think, better than I ever have in my life. Because I understand that this person is taking the time to gift me this. Why not enjoy it? Why not receive it with elegance and take a moment to unwrap this beautiful gift as opposed to just kind of shoving it in the bin and just and I don't think people throw it in the bin because they want to be a mean person. I think they do it out of humility. They do it because no, no, no, don't, no. It's done out of humility. It's humility. Yeah, definitely. But sometimes you can be so humble that you don't, yeah, there is a thing I think that is too humble. And I think that's what we coined tall poppy syndrome in Australia. Yeah. For sure. I think even just as you were saying that, and I was thinking about the written versus the verbal, and I'm not sure if there's other people out there that are the same, but for me, I think when I'm writing, I can write from a purer place than I can when speaking. Speaking at times... Maybe just doesn't have the same level of depth and clarity that it does in terms of writing. Sorry, I just have to tell you that I just imagined the next right after this, you leave me a voice message and it's, Hey, if anyone knows what you don't know, they really love you. And I'll be like, wow, that's gross. Okay. That's why he doesn't leave voice messages. Just a sound of a 25 second fart. That's all you're getting. Hey, if you could do that, I would be thoroughly impressed. Yeah, I can't do that. Yeah, no one can do that. Yeah. Sorry, I stopped you in the middle of your thought. It's that when you write. Okay, so writing for you is, look, that's the same as my wife. That's the same as Pei Wen. She writes a lot of it too because that's where she feels she can fully express with clarity and meaning. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Cool. A couple of quick tips before we move on from this appreciation one. I know it's very action-driven as well. So tips on appreciation, I feel, because I love giving appreciation as well myself. I think make it personal, make it specific and make it unexpected. I think if you can do those three things, that's a very potent dose of appreciation for someone. It's like what you did. You made it very specific. You made it very personal and you made it unexpected. I think without knowing, you kind of put together a- powerful cocktail when it comes to appreciation. And I think if everyone else can find opportunities to do this for those around them that you really care about and you love, do it. Just write down the names of three people right now, make something personal, make it unexpected, make it super specific and just watch the message you get back in return. It's going to brighten your whole damn weekend. Pretty cool. One of the things that I remember doing for a while is I'd have a calendar reminder. And it just was simple and just said, just send somebody a message that you appreciate. And I just do that once a week where it could be somebody from like 20 years ago or 10 years ago. It's like, I just wanted to say thank you for that thing that you did for me back in the day. It had a really big impact on my life. Hope you're well. And I'm going to write that thing down in my diary calendar for today because that is bloody beautiful. Wow. Except I'll leave them a voice message. You'll leave them a voice message. Voice message filled with love and emotion. I'll add them to the email list and it'll just be, Dear First Name, thank you for that awesome thing that you did. Thanks, Jeremy. Great campaign. I'm really proud of you, son. And I really hope you do well at your soccer game. Can't wait for dinner with you tonight, babe. Let's go. It's got the template as well. It's like, insert good thing they did, and then they get sent. Dear first name. Oh, man. Oh, I love it. Okay. All right. Well, I'll jump into the next one. Cool. This one is a simple and straightforward one, and it's arouse in the other person an eager want. To get what we want from another person, we must forget our own perspective and begin to see things from their point of view. When we can combine our desires with their wants, they become eager to work with us and we can mutually achieve our objectives. So this is really about, it's about being able to see things from other people's point of view. I think that's the ultimate superpower. If you can truly do this properly, if you can learn to truly, and I mean truly see things from other people's point of view, you will be the ultimate communicator. You know, one of the things I do to improve my ability in this area, and I know that what I'm about to talk about is a little bit pseudoscience-y, but it's personality profiles. What I do in my workshop is I normally will get one of my team members to write down all of my students' names, and they put it on the back of a clipboard. And on the back of that clipboard, I have next to their names, all of their personality profiles. So, you know, next to Ali will be a personality profile. And then what I do this for their benefit, but I do this mainly for me as a teacher to enhance my effectiveness, right? Because for someone like you, Ali, if I had you on stage, I'd be very direct with the feedback that I give you. Because I know that's what you want. You want feedback direct. You don't need me to sugarcoat it. You don't need me to fluff it. It's just that's your personality profile. Whereas if I bring somebody else up that has a different personality profile. I may not be able to give them feedback on stage. So on stage, I share with things they did well, and I will eloquently say, oh, look, I'm so sorry, Susan. I think we're slightly out of time. What I'm going to do is I'm going to have a chat with you during lunch, and I'd love to share some extra thoughts with you if you don't mind. Is that okay? And they will love that because they don't want their feedback public, you know, from right in front of everyone. So doing this, at the end of my workshop, I reveal to them that I do this. And I do it in this way. I say to them, this is a scary question for me to ask, but how many of you in this class right now feel really deeply connected with me? And often 95% of the hands go up. I mean, I won't be modest for a second. Generally, it's 100%, right? And I say to them, how do you think I did this? I did this because I'm able to see things from your point of view. I know about you with 70% accuracy. And I know this because I've made you all do a personality test before you come into this class. So I understand how to serve each one of you better. Blows their mind. And then I go in and I teach them a simple personality profile system that I use. And the one I use is called Color Code by Dr. Hartman. The reason I use this one over the others is because it's super simple. It's super simple. By the moment I meet someone, I immediately... can predict with 70% accuracy who this person is. And that's often all I need as an edge. And now I'm able to communicate in your language and see things from your perspective. That's awesome. Yeah. The one that's often used in the business world is like the disk profile. Yeah, or Myers-Briggs, right? Yeah, Myers-Briggs. And again, it's... It's a really cool tool just to understand the drivers as well behind people and what they're doing. I remember we did it with our team a few years ago and it was amazing just to see the balance of how each different person colored in a different part of that wheel. And then being like, oh, wow, well, you know, with you, we've been actually probably directing you in a direction where you'd be better suited here because there was some conflict where that person wasn't really enjoying their role as much. It's like, oh, it makes sense now that we can see it from this area. I think it's also good to know what your natural tendency is, which personality types that you more organically gel with and blend with versus those that... Are your kryptonite or the opposite side of your magnet? And I think that's also a very important skill to then develop is like, okay, well, we will naturally probably not say eye to eye because of our personality type. But how can we still exchange value to each other? Because generally that's the skill set. that you need the most is the one that you don't have. And it's usually the person that you're probably going to have the most conflict with as well. So I'm factoring that in. That's a really good piece of insight. I will add one more thing. And we often hear a lot of the influences on social media talk about the importance of building self-awareness, right? And this is something that I really think is important too. One of the ways to gain a very high level of self-awareness is to do one of these personality tests. And then sit down and look at yourself because there are going to be clear weaknesses that your certain personality profile has and certain strengths that you have. And what's interesting is most of us, we tend to be aware of some of our strengths and there'll be some strengths you won't even be aware of, which is a nice, delightful surprise. But then what it also gives you is a list of your potential limitations. And what's really cool for me was when I read it, I was like, I didn't know that was a limitation of mine, but holy crap, is it true? And that's where self-awareness comes in. So not only is learning this great for you to be able to become more effective at connecting with others, this is great for you to learn how to connect more deeply with yourself and understand yourself more and build more self-awareness. Yeah, that's cool. I'll add one more on the personality test is if you really want to see if you have self-awareness, get somebody that is close to you. that knows you quite well to take the test imagining that it was you so i've had my wife take it for me and multiple tests and then you can see what the gap is of how you perceive yourself versus how somebody close to you perceives oh that is cool yeah and and was it close or yeah it was we're with chantelle and i was she got it we for both of us we got each other's pretty much identical to what the other person did. I think probably 95% identical. How scary would it be if you did this with your wife and she completely misread you or you completely misread yourself and you realised that you're a psychopath? Yeah, well, it's also- Oh, man, that's crazy. I think probably a little bit of that gap could be linked even to things like, you know, anxiety and a few other issues where it's just the reality maybe isn't matching up with- the, the perception. So it's a pretty powerful tool to be able to realign and be like, oh, wow, well, this person that's known me for 10 years thought all of these things. Like, what is it that I'm not seeing? Because if I can then work on bridging that gap, because there's two ways you could go, right? It's like, all right, well, there's something in my actual reality that I'm perceiving that doesn't really exist. Like I want to be known as this creative thinker, but then this person is saying that, you know, I love following process. It's like, okay, well, maybe I haven't actually taken enough action to show others around me that I'm a creative thinker. Like it might just be purely in my head, but not actually manifesting out there in the real world. So it can be a pretty cool tool if you go into it with an open mind and don't get too defensive with it. That's such a cool tip. I love it. Get someone close to you to do it and see if the way you perceive yourself is the way others perceive you. Damn, that's epic. All right. I just thought of a really cool analogy with a point. So do you mind if I just jump in with another point and then... do two after that okay i i love this next lesson this is something i had to learn become genuinely interested in other people and he's got this great quote in the book where he says you can make more friends in two months by being interested in them than in two years by making them interested in you so i the analogy that came to my mind was that i'm a magnet and i've only learned to use the magnetism or the magnetic force on one side of my magnet. Meaning I was only able to draw people to me by me being the point of interest. And I got really good at that. I got really good at making people interested in me and kind of drawing them closer to me with the magnet force of just one side of the magnet. This lesson taught me how to actually... become magnetic from the other side as well because a magnet has two forces two sides that attracts right and to me i was only doing it from one side by being interesting but i never learned how to be interested in other people really well and i can tell you that the moment i learned how to do this man when you can draw people in by being interesting and then when you can draw people in by being interested when you do both that's a goddamn superpower It's so incredible because look, and again, it's so easy to learn this lesson and go, oh, I should always be interested in others and not get others to be interested in me. It's easy to think that. To me, look, you need to learn how to be interesting as well. You need to learn how to draw people in. But once you draw people in, then you turn it around. This again is 10x, this 10x is this lesson, I believe. Because I draw you in with me being interesting. And then just when you start to go, wait, is this all going to be about that person? You turn it around and go, now tell me about you. I'd love to know more about that interest you have in skydiving. That makes them feel so important because this person that now they perceive to be so important now really cares about me. It makes them feel extremely, extremely special. That's cool. And it's probably, it's harder to be interesting than it is to be interested in somebody else. Like, if you think about a baseline strategy if you're going down this path is, yeah. I think we all think that if I make myself really interesting, that's going to solve all of my problems, but that's quite difficult. Whereas the people that we generally love the most, the people in our friendship group that we feel are great listeners, that are loyal, that are there to help solve problems because they understand us. If you think back to the exchange of value that exists within relationships, so much of that comes from the other side of the coin. I don't know. Many friends are like, you know what I really love about you as a friend is how you just always tell me stories about how cool you are. Like, I don't know if that wins over too many people. No, well, look, I mean, we've got to balance this. We've got to balance this because it's not just one or the other, especially with this one. Because you are friends with me because I do share stories with you that are really interesting. That's true. That is definitely part of this puzzle. I mean, if- What about- Imagine you had a friend that never shared with you any stories about themselves and all they did was listen. Yeah. And maybe that works. Maybe that does work. But to me, a great and flourishing friendship is when it's the exchange of interesting stories from you and then I share some from me and it's that beautiful exchange. But you do the balance really well. I think even when you were saying that you don't really enact that balance, I would say that even if you think about the way that you communicate your stories, there's usually a point. It's not just you telling a story because some event happened in your life. You're always linking it back to, and the reason why I'm telling you this. And you have that natural ability to then link it back to somebody else and what they're then going through. Otherwise, you just may. A keynote speaker douche that just told stories about himself all the time that had no relevance to anyone else and he'd have zero friends and... No one's sending you messages like the one that you got from Jordan earlier today. Like the message wasn't, hey, Vin, love the way that you're just posting how you're in your private chat and showing us how good your life is. That's amazing. I wish you could show us more pictures of what interesting things you are doing today that have no relevance to my life. Keep sharing. Oh, gosh. Oh, wow. I think you do it. Yeah, well, I think that the point of the story, sometimes the point of the story, if the point of the story is always about how you are so bloody amazing, then that story is going to get boring after a while, right? I just want to say as well, also don't be afraid to share stories where you are amazing, because you should be proud of the things you've achieved in life. You should be. empowered by sharing those stories again because i don't want to fall victim to tall poppy syndrome you know i i think that's one of the things i love so much about the us is that i never felt that for a moment while i was there and and i'll be quite frank being back here in australia i love australia i love my country don't get me wrong but i do feel the tall poppy syndrome here immensely yeah it's culturally very different isn't it like even when very different and i think australians probably struggle a little bit with the call it American confidence, don't you think? Because we are very much the underdog, understated. We only really share stories if asked, whereas it is pretty common where you meet, again, I know a lot of amazing American people and a lot of friends, but a lot of the time it starts off with a very confident, it's like establishing status or, yeah. I think somewhere in the middle between Australians and Americans is a beautiful middle spot because I think sometimes we... No, I still think they're too much of an Australian. I think they're just, they're the American Australians. We're making a lot of enemies right now. We should probably... I know, I know, yeah. Wow. We just go through the top 100 countries and just make a nice stereotype generalization. That's okay. That's okay because they can all just join your mailing list so they can send you that fake, that generalized appreciation text. Dear Japan, it's like love. We love the way you make your sausages. Yeah. I... October Fest was amazing. There's a nice middle ground here because let's not lose track too much here. What I'm really trying to promote is that, look, you've got to learn how to be interesting as well. Don't just read this statement. Ali is right in saying that if you're starting from zero, it's easier to be interested in others. I get it. But what I'm talking about here is if we ultimately want to master this communication game and really master this relationship game, you've got to learn both skills. You've got to learn when to be interesting, and then you've got to learn when to be interested. It's like a magnet with one side. that magnet is missing out on 50% of its effectiveness. And I get that. Sure, maybe this is the side you learn first because it's easier to be interested in others. Don't neglect the other side of the magnet because there will be times when you need to also be interesting. That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. It's both. And this is one of the situations where it's clearly it's both. And I went down the wrong path. I probably didn't learn the first thing I should have learned. I first learned how to be interesting because I had such low self-esteem, because I had such low levels of self-confidence when I was young. I went for the other side first. And then only having one side impacted me negatively. People easily perceived me to be an arrogant idiot, right? Just a monster. Someone who's very self-absorbed. So to me, learn both. Going on that point, I know you've got some pretty cool actionable tips on this. What's a very quick way to be interesting when you've got a short amount of time to impress? Storytelling. You've got to learn storytelling and learn it well. Because if you've got these stories in your back pocket and you've, it's like stand-up comedy. You've got bits. And you've got these stories that are polished, stories that have been tested, stories that you know work far out. When you're in a situation where you need to build rapport, build connection, get people interested in you, and you've got these stories ready to go, you're going to win that relationship. Is there a specific type, like say if you could pick two or three types of stories that every single person should have in their back pocket that are pretty universal in terms of being able to build rapport? Can you think of some themes? Definitely humorous stories is a winner because humorous stories allows you to immediately break the ice. It allows you to immediately increase the level of rapport that that person feels with you, right? And just the bonding immediately. The moment we laugh together, we learn together, we're friends, right? So I think having humorous stories, stories that are, you know, you can find self-deprecating ones if you want to, but there are many forms of humorous stories. I think having stories that are vulnerable, and these are stories you don't share until, you know, you've got a relationship with a person. But I think these are stories that can deepen relationships. And then stories that are just engaging in nature. You know, stories that, you know, draw people in. Stories that really hook people. If you've got these nice three categories, you've got stories that immediately can break the ice, connect. You've got stories that can build depth. And then you've got stories that can engage. Five of each story in your back pocket. You can use them anytime. They're at your disposal. They're at your disposal. Give us one. One of yours, like if you're meeting somebody and you have two minutes. Yep. Okay. One that I use often on my briefing calls with my clients. And if my clients are listening to this, they'll be like, oh gosh, you use this all the time. but yeah maybe maybe don't use this one no i want to use this one i want to use this one well because because i am using it strategically yeah but it's because it works and i'm not doing it maliciously i'm doing it because it's a story that is dear to me and i want to share it and the story that i often share is i go to my clients i say that and then this is one i just recently used because i go oh you know i was just reminded of this by my wife but we were we were thinking of a name for my son And the name that we came up with a few years ago for my son before he was born was Axel. And I remember going to my father-in-law and asking him for permission and then saying to my father-in-law, Hey, Dad, do you like this name? It's Axel. I love it. I secretly love Vikings. So I love that my son could potentially have the word Axe in his name. How cool. And then my father-in-law is Malaysian and looks at me and he goes, Okay, how do I say Axel, Dad? And he goes, Oh, okay, the Axel. The Axhole. No, no, the Axhole, no, the bumhole. And my father-in-law ruined that name. You know, when I look at the word Axhole, it looks like asshole to me now. So we named my son Xander instead. And when I tell my clients this, they crack up laughing. This is in the first minute of us jumping on this call together. They're laughing. I'm laughing. I love this story. endorphins are just filling their body they feel good they're laughing and that's how we kick off the call or have you ever been on a call with anyone called axel no no i haven't however i have been on a call where they said you know that's actually my son's name And you know what they said? They go, and you know what, Vin? He is a bit of an asshole. And I was like, oh, I'm going to be absolutely broke. He is a bit of an asshole. Yeah. But listen, or what is the alternative? The alternative is. Oh, hey, Jackie, how's your day? Oh, hey, Jackie, thanks for taking the time to jump onto this call with me. Look, let's go through the agenda that we have for today. Oh, man, I started with the story that broke the eyes, maximized rapport, and intensified connection. Now, the rest of this 30-minute call is on fire. and we're immediately friends. And I think that's one of the things that people don't do very well, I think, is because the education system doesn't teach this. They don't teach us how to storytell. They don't teach us how to appreciate other people. They don't appreciate us to remember people's names. Far out. Like, this book needs to be a part of high school. Yeah. It's pretty prerequisite, isn't it? So there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Out of society. That's one of my big tips on how you can be interesting is learn how to become a better storyteller and just think of stand-up comedians. If a stand-up comedian walked into a room and they had 20 bits, that'd be the most interesting thing in that room. But if that's all they did, they're not being effective. My note that I'm writing just as you're saying that is if you've got kids or pets or... People that aren't you, that you can link these funny stories to, I think that's amazing. Like I know just having kids, you probably get two of these every morning that you could open up as an icebreaker of something ridiculous your kid's done prior to even going to school that breaks the ice. So I'm just going to make a note of that. I think that's a really cool tip. Open up with a humorous and light story. And it takes 45 seconds. It took me 45 seconds to share that story. And think about... all the good vibes that's flowing through our veins right now. You just feel better, right? For sure. And again, just to close out the thought. However, if I just told stories and never let others share stories, then I'm just an arrogant prick, which was my default mode because I'm a performer. I'm a keynote speaker. I'm a magician. I'm a performer. I go on stage and I perform, and it's often one way. It's often just me sharing stories with others. But when people come up to me afterwards, I reversed the other side. I showed the other side of my magnet. And hey, tell me more about you though. And I can't express how powerful this is again. When you can be interesting and you draw people to you and then you flip the other side of the magnet and you become interested, that intensifies this lesson even more so, I believe. Really interesting. I'm just thinking about the contrast because I know we probably go about it a little bit differently in terms of influence, even though the core of what we're doing is probably the same because we try to create value through connecting with other people. If you think about it, most of my value is based on deal-making and partnerships and so is yours. You work with clients and you then service them by conveying what your exchange value is going to be. I was just thinking about that in terms of storytelling. But... Mine is generally a lot more depersonal. It's done from an organizational point of view where I think it's probably different as well because you're performing in an area where you are the product that you're selling. Whereas with mine, I was thinking about, yeah, like personal stories, I'll probably utilize on a one-to-one relationship level a little bit more. And that's, again, what I've learned from you. But then. I'm thinking about using some of these principles within this around how do you then create really good deal value and win-win outcomes from a, call it nearly a negotiation perspective. So I think it'd be cool just to jam on that for a little bit around using some of these principles just in basic negotiation and deal making. And one of the points that you mentioned earlier is just that simple component of understanding. the other person and what they want. is probably 70% of all deal making. I think maybe, I can't remember what year it was, 2015, around there, 2016. I did a course at Harvard on negotiation and it blew my mind in terms of learning the art form of 3D negotiation and moving that away from transactional negotiation because that's what we always learn, right? Is that the most basic form of negotiation that we learn is haggling at a market where it's you've got product. You want $10, I want to pay five and we'll meet at seven, right? And that's a very two-dimensional type of negotiation where there's not really much room to create any additional value outside of that transactional exchange. And then going and doing that course, it taught me the art form of 3D negotiation and I think it aligns really good with this book. When you combine the art form of 3D negotiation and the principles in this book, it is... super powerful in terms of being able to build the pie and to achieve a really strong win-win outcome and so much of that is understanding the other side around seeing things that you can provide that are potentially lower value to you but higher value to the other person looking at things like whether yeah there's other examples of Like, can you get a merger or another party involved in the deal? Like, how can you then really see what that other person wants and then describe that in tangible value form? I know we lost you there for a second. It threw me off a little bit, but you're good. Yeah, yeah. No, just my usual disconnect. I literally have my ISP over right now working out what's causing this. Yeah, look, I... I think from a negotiation standpoint, I caught the last bit of what you're saying is that you've got to know what's actually important to that person. Was that what you were saying? Yeah. Yep. And creating maximum value within that ecosystem by really listing out, well, I've got this that I can offer. You've got this that you can offer. How can we combine that to create the largest form of value? Whereas most of the time negotiation is about concessions. Like I want this, you want this. And it's more of a scarcity-driven type of negotiation rather than really exploring. It's a win-lose. So at times it can be a win-lose, especially when you start going too heavy on the concessions, right? Whereas the greatest deals and the most beneficial deals over a long term is just when you get a really beautiful organic exchange of value where all parties are bringing forth as much as they can offer to grow a larger pie. You see, I did this. I just recently, and I texted you, I sent you, I bought a camping trailer. Yeah. So I'm going all in on this camping thing. And I was at a camp showground kind of exposition, is it expedition? No, expose. There was an expose, exposition. exhibition and what the hell and and it was a it was a helping you there yeah i know i know just hey help me don't criticize me and what happened was there was there was this camping trailer there that i fell in love with and my cousin and i we both decided to buy one each and i remember negotiating and the price was thirty eight thousand dollars thirty eight $38,900, so $39,000 for this camping trailer. And we're negotiating. And of course, we did the haggling. We're like, oh, we want to be here. You're there. And then once I kind of got him down to a fairly low price, I said, look, can we explore other ways to create an even better win-win situation for both of us? And... I showed him that I had a fairly decent following on Facebook. So on Facebook, you know, I've got like 70,000 followers. On Instagram, 10,000 followers, etc. And I said, hey, what would you do? And I run a video production company. I noticed that on your site, you don't have really good videos of this trailer. Like the videos you have are actually not very good. What if I made you a video with my company and you take an extra $5,000 off? And I posted it on my social media, kind of spruiking how amazing this trailer is as well. And he took a chunk of the price off. And that, to me, wasn't in my arsenal before. I never used to go down that path of creating a bigger pie. I used to just be like, well, I'm at here and you're there. And if you don't meet me here, then I'm walking away. And then the only strategy I knew was the, well, I'm going to go now. I'm walking away. And that's the only strategy I knew because that's the only one my dad taught me. But now I've learned how to, well, how can we create extra value for both of us? Is there anything that I can access for much cheaper that would cost you a lot more? And there was. I have access to video services for cost. And I could offer that to them at a premium market rate that they perceive to be high value. So that was a really cool strategy. Something that I can get access to for cheap, but they perceive to be very high value. For sure. That was really cool. That was a really cool move. That's a beautiful negotiation. And just simple prompts. Like if you are in the middle of a deal or you're trying to achieve some outcome, there's a couple of really cool lines. Like just asking, what do you want? You know, what's something else that I can offer? can we look at this from a different angle to see if we can work out a deal? Like they're just a few short lines that can change the complete face of a negotiation that gets halted or I'll stop. And likeability as well. I will say this. And of course this is not going to apply to all situations. Some situations you just won't get the deal because look, unfortunately it's just not going to work mathematically, financially, whatever. Likeability does help. a lot. And that's what this book helps you with. I remember sharing stories and just connecting with that guy to the max. We were laughing. We were having a great time. And I knew that he wanted me to have one of these trailers because he liked me. He liked who I was. Sure, he was a salesman, but I know that there was actually a genuine connection there. I mean, we walked away with hats. We were wearing hats. And we said that we're going to wear your hat now for this entire you know, this entire experience that we spend the next six, seven hours here. And you just don't discount that because the storytelling and everything, that's important there. Yep, for sure. And even I'm thinking about it right now, but the best negotiator that I know probably doesn't even know that he is the best negotiator. And, you know, it's a shout out. I'll give him a shout out to John who works with us. And he just simply negotiates deals based on his relationships, you know, and. They're never cutthroat. I've seen him doing deals for seven years now, and I've never seen one deal go pear-shaped in terms of, like, somebody winning and somebody losing. And he can pretty much Really? It's as simple as yeah, like, it's as simple as now just going in, and the reputation will precede him. It's like, all right, well, if he's vouching for this thing, and you can just rest assured that it's going to be structured in a way that's fair and where everyone wins. And that's kind of His super move that, yeah, that you can only build over years of, I think, even building that likability and the depth of relationships. Like I could go in with so much more from a deal structure perspective, right? Where it's got all these different bells and whistles on it. But I don't think it would ever be as powerful as, hey, here's the core of the deal. You can trust that everyone will deliver what they say they will. And I'm going to be the one. looking after it for you like that's pretty powerful when there's uncertainty in trying to get something over the line so i think yeah you're spot on in terms of the importance of relationships like ability being able to build rapport your own reputation like i think you could probably get away with dealing a couple of really good short-term deals but it won't work longer term you might get a win here and there but that's not a sustainable strategy i think it's about you being consistently known as somebody that's trying to create value. And to punch your point again, understand the value that you can bring, understand the value that they can bring, and then understand the value that you can create together. For sure. You know, I think that's another big one as well. One plus one equals three, right? Good on you, John. Well done, John. You've got the five-star Vin and Ali approval. He's the man. He's the man. All right. Do you want to pick a couple for us to jump into? Farah Ali, this has been really awesome. It's so good being able to talk about this. I've never discussed this book with anyone. I've kind of learned this in a vacuum and kind of marveled at how amazing this book was. It's just so cool being able to talk about this with you and realize how shallow you are. I'm just kidding. So I just, I knew, I knew you didn't see that coming. So I just thought I'd throw one in there, you know, just throw a quick, throw a quick, throw a quick shank in there. Didn't see that one coming. I feel like you should read this book that I've just read recently. How to Win Friends and Influence People. Just, you just lost one fan. You just lost a fan. I'll write one. I'm unsubscribing. oh gosh how to win enemies and make people hate you how to really hurt someone's feelings how to hurt those close i like i love the example the the book talks about abraham lincoln and just the way that he went about communicating with these generals and then okay There's a story where I think, you know, I'll butcher it because I wasn't paying too much attention to stories because I hear so many stories from you and I kind of just tune out now. But it was along the lines of they had the chance to win the war and his general didn't take the opportunity. Right. So he's obviously pretty shattered. Like lives are lost. He's going through this process. They're on the brink of victory. He then... writes this letter to his general saying that, you know, wow, that's really disappointing. He had the chance for us to win the war, blah, blah, blah. It was, in his terms, probably quite a scathing review. And then the story pretty much ends with that letter never being sent, being put into his drawer and then it being found many years later. So, I just love that component of another form of communication. Sometimes it's about... Not communicating the first thing that comes to your mind when you're in an emotional state and actually sitting on things for a little bit of time. And this is probably just more around the other side of communication. Like we're talking a lot on the positive side, but there's a bit of risk mitigation because if you play this card wrong, it can just kill off relationships. And then you're living with the regret of saying something that you just never really should have said. And so many times, like I've practiced that a few times where just writing the email is good enough. You don't have to send it because, and then you realize in a day or two or something happens or you hear something more about that other person's perspective and you're like, wow, am I glad I didn't write that message or I didn't send that email. And I think you very rarely regret not sending a scathing email because it's always there if you need to send it. But I don't think I've ever been like, hey, you know what? I really should have clicked send on that thing. Can you imagine you accidentally send it to them? You accidentally just, you finish it, we hit enter, and you go, oh, God, I've sent it. No, I remember that story now after you've told it. It's because as human beings, we're naturally emotional, right? We're first emotional, and then we justify the emotion with logic afterwards, right? But we do need an outlet. You need to acknowledge. You need to acknowledge the negative emotion. And when you acknowledge it, it goes away. That's why journaling is so powerful, right? It's I've written into this journal now. And that's why I'm afraid of someday someone reading it without context, because some of the thoughts I've written here are really strange and sometimes can be a little bit dark as well. And to me, if I don't have an outlet for it, it comes out in different ways. I might snap at someone. I might be really short with Xander. I might be really short with Pei Wen. And it's because I didn't have an outlet for my emotion. And I think it's about learning how to take that emotional breath. And that emotional breath is just about getting it down. And I love that strategy. I love that strategy. Just don't maybe write it in your email because you might accidentally click send afterwards. Just write it down on paper. That's a great strategy. Yeah, I love it. Have you ever used that? Have you done that literally? I mean, have you gotten angry at someone and then... So whenever I write an email, and it's great with the team that I've got too, because I'm known for writing quite a lengthy email. And it's the way that I generally clarify my thoughts. I'll do a first draft. Don't do many of them a year, but the team will get an essay every now and again. And generally, I'll go to an extreme position and then I'll share it. And then I'll get everyone's feedback to then water it down to a normal human level. So that's another strategy that I use when I know it's something big because I'm like, well, I know that I'm missing something here because I'm just going by my viewpoint and perspective as a starting point. So I need to now collect the other viewpoints for only people that will have a perspective on the matter or the issue. I'm fortunate that I've got a good group of people around me that are quite open and being like, yeah, okay, I think you've gone a little bit far there. Maybe you watered that one down a little bit. A lot of the times it's, I think this would be better as a face-to-face conversation. That's a big bit of feedback that I get is going through that. But yeah, I think I've got enough evidence that my first initial thought. when it's emotionally driven, isn't going to be the most productive way to communicate a message. It's the same thing that I had to communicate with A-Wen in that when we have an argument, I just need a little bit of time. And it's not me avoiding the conversation. It's just that I need time to process what's happening. And I need time to be able to... sit down reflect on my own emotions on what's making me angry and then i need time to then try to understand how she's seeing it and i just need time to process that before we continue with the conversation right and and now it's okay because when we do have these arguments she understands that about me now whereas before it was kind of she just thought oh you just don't care he's like well no it's not that it's just we both need time to process because that initial visceral reaction is not truly how i feel it's just that's called confusion confusion and miscommunication and angry everything in a cup it's not the best yeah it's not truly i feel i'm confused and i think it's one of probably the biggest detriments to relationships is as we get to know people more i think we lose that filter a little bit and we just say the first thing that comes to our mind and i remember like even periods in our life where Me and Chantel have had an argument and I'm like, how we just spoke to each other. Could you imagine us speaking to anyone else like that, that we know? Because we just wouldn't do that. Like the way that we sometimes speak to people that we're close to. And that's something that I've definitely tried to start practicing a little bit more over the last three to five years is, well, if I'm going to say this to somebody that I really care about and love, would... Like, why would I go and respect somebody that I don't even know that well more than this person and just think that it's okay to communicate in that manner? And yeah, it's a bit crazy how that just becomes a natural form of communication. And my belief is it's probably one of the- Sorry, yeah. Go, go, go, go. Finish your thought. Sorry. No, no. No, no. Just the last bit was there is, I think, that simple thing of how we communicate. And the intention of how we communicate in that filter probably has the largest detriment on really good relationships and long-term relationships. I was just going to add to what you're saying in that, sure, we are really, some of the times where we speak to the people we love and we're closest to, we're really harsh. But the harshest person that we treat is ourselves. I think we treat ourselves in a way that's even more disgusting. I don't know if you noticed this, but since I started journaling more again because of you and thanks to you, some of the things that sometimes I write down and I'm saying to myself, it's pretty damn nasty, man. It's the equivalent of, how could you let this happen, you piece of... And it's like, when you read that back, you go, wow, I would never... say any like say any of this to anyone and and again why again i'm understanding the importance of journals and having locks on them now because it's like if everyone read this i think i'm crazy but it's we are so we treat ourselves like crap sometimes the classic one is when you you do something wrong and then you just start swearing at yourself you know it's it's crazy and i think it starts there you We have to learn how to be kinder to ourselves and it starts there because only then that's when you can start to be truly kind to others. Yeah. Because if you treat yourself like crap, you're going to treat others like crap. That internal voice is pretty important for sure. I've also found though that some of the nice people that I've ever met externally to others, They're that kind and positive and upbeat. But then you find out more about the internal dialogue and it's super dark. It is, yeah. So I wonder if the opposite is true. The meanest people are the nicest versions of themselves. You know, I can imagine a complete jackass. And then inside he's just like, you're a great person, Stephen. I think so. I think to be consistently... Mean. You probably have to tell yourself a pretty good story because most human beings are driven by righteousness as a core fundamental. Like we all have beliefs and values. we think are correct. And I think when you see tyrannical dictators and leaders, I'm sure that their journal would be like, hey, you are amazing, you powerful Lord of Earth. Like, let's go dominate more planets and share our wisdom with all, you know, like it's probably along those lines. The self-loathing is hidden very deep. The contrast is crazy. I'm just imagining this person like Stephen in the car. It's like... Get out of my goddamn way. But in its head, it's like, it's a wonderful world. You know, it's like this beautiful place. But it's, oh, man, what a terrible existence. Okay, well, there you go. What we just said is not backed by any science. That is just guess. No, it's called brawl science. Yeah, that's right. I love the lesson of, I mean, this is so simple. I use it as a huge pillar in my classes, in my workshops, and it's remembering a person's name. What he writes in the book is people love their name so much, they'll often donate large amounts of money just to have their names on a building. And it's true. We know that to be true. And I do this in my classes where I've seen the impact of this. I generally have about 30 to 50 students in my class. A week before, every night, I'd spend an hour and I'd have pictures of them. I get them to send a picture of themselves into me, into my class. And I'd have it all on my phone and I'll swipe across and I'll just remember all their names. I'd memorize it. And then I'll get my wife to quiz me. I'd get Craig to quiz me or any of my team members to go to a random one and show me. So that when they come into my class, the first time I meet them, I meet, the first thing I say is their name. So I'd be like, Jessica. And it... As a magician, I love astonishment, right? I love all forms of astonishment, not astonishment that's created just from sleight of hand in the world of magic. I love finding different ways to astonish people. And that is hands down, if I had to say it was a class of magic trick, is one of the most powerful classes of magic ever. Because when you do that, they're like, you just, you get them immediately because they didn't even introduce themselves and you already know who they are. There's something so special to that. And then on top of that, what gets them even more? is when they ask me questions in class and they just kind of raise their hand and I say, hey Stephen, what's the question? What would you like to ask? And they're just like, oh man, this is crazy. And it always comes up in my class where someone will inevitably say at the end of day one, then I just want to say thanks for remembering each and every single one of our names. You have no idea how special you made us feel. And the reason I do this bro is because I remember when I was young, my teachers were rarely remembered my name and that sucked it just sucks so much because i remember you know they'll be like uh yes yes uh amy uh yes john and and yep you would always have the glasses what would you like to get yeah yeah you you and it just I don't know. And I remember this so vividly because it just got to the point where I'm like, yeah, yeah, sure. You don't know my name. It's all good. It's very demoralizing. So for me as a teacher, it's something that I make a huge effort on. And I've seen firsthand with hundreds, if not thousands of students now, the power of that. Yeah, for sure. And it's people's identity and how they get seen. I think it's one of... Like I remember when we were growing up in the 90s, like it was the same for me where very rarely would teachers say my name or get it right and it probably- Yours has three letters. Yeah. My full name's a little bit longer. But it's- I think you kind of, like, yeah, it's different when someone's like, hey, Jono, you know, and then they get that affirmation just immediately with that name. Like, as you were saying, you're on the back foot when somebody is scared to say your name. It's pretty hard to make yourself seen. That's cool. That's very powerful. It's their brand. It's people's identity. I think nowadays we've seen it get a lot better where people have improved, like, pronunciation. The confidence to say names, which is awesome. But yeah, you're right. Well, what's it say? It's like the sweetest sound to any person is their name. Yep. I think so. All right. Remember names. Remember a story about that person if you can too. It's always powerful. The beautiful thing is when you tell stories, stories by nature are very sticky. So people are more likely to remember stories if you do tell stories and if you tell them well. Yeah, for sure. It's why after you see a stand-up comic, go for it. No, no, I was just saying that I think I remember people's, like their profile more than I do their name. Like if they tell me a few things like where they work, what their kids' names are, where they go to school or whatever, I'll remember those details even more than their actual name. It's the natural way brain works for me. One of the quick kind of hacks you can use to remember people's names better is to say that once you learn their name, use it as often as you can in the next few sentences, just so that you start to anchor that name more into your brain. And, you know, obviously don't do it every sentence, but try your best to use it as often as you can during the conversation. And it's just a great little technique to help you remember that person's name. Very cool. I reckon we've got time for a couple more, brother. There's so many lessons in this. I feel like we've barely covered half of them, but let's go a couple more. All right. I love this one. Give a person a reputation to live up to and they will. Oh, yeah. How cool is that? That is brilliant. I think that would be one of my favourite. The example that was used in this particular lesson was fantastic. And again, I'm going to butcher this, but there was a housemaid that was moving from one household to another. And the problem was the new homeowner that was going to bring in the housemaid heard news from the old house owner that, oh, this person's really messy and they don't really tidy up the house well. And instead of relaying that to the housemaid that this new homeowner was about to hire, He said, hey, I've heard a lot of great things about you. I've heard that, you know, you do your job very well. You tidy the house very, very diligently. And I also heard some negative things, but I know that they're probably lying and I know it's not true. I know you're very good at what you do and you're a professional. And then the housemate lived up to their, you know, lived up to that reputation. So that was a really cool example. I thought, oh, wow, that's lovely. Yep, for sure. Yeah, that one aligns with me a lot. Like even when I just think about the people in my life, I would generally just assume that they can do heaps more than they even think they can. Yeah, and sometimes that can be overwhelming because it's got the pro side of the potential that I maybe see. But then I think at times it can also be a pretty heavy level of expectation because I just generally believe that they can do certain things that they haven't done yet. And I think a lot of team members would probably attest to that, especially if I'm highly interested in their growth and development. It means that I'm seeing something there and they're like, yeah, but you just hired me to do this thing. And it's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure you could do like this as well. And that, and that, and this. Like, don't just limit yourself with this. And I would say 80 to 90% of the time it plays out. Like there is so much untapped potential there that, yeah, that sometimes that person can't even see. You know what I want to do now? I'm going to go to Perwin after this and be like, you know what, Perwin? I think you can do better with the pasta. I believe in you. I feel like we're just scratching the surface of what you're capable of with this dish that we've made for a long time now. You should probably punch me in the throat. I'd say it's the opposite though. I'd say like you've set the foundations for it though already. That's pretty strong. Yeah. Where it could nearly be like, hey, like if it was me, I'd be like, Pei Wen, you need to become a Michelin star chef. Like that's like, how do we now, how do we now make you making your own pasta so we can now sell it and create a stall out the front of the house? Such an entrepreneur. As soon as I've had the first part of it. Another way of looking at this is speak to the person that they can become, not the person that they are. For sure. Speak to the potential person that they can become, yeah. Well, to me, like just going back to the game of entrepreneurship, like if I look back now over 10 years, what's the coolest thing about the whole journey? I would say it's the growth of the people that executed everything. Right, like it's, that is by far the number one thing. When you see somebody that starts off at A and then you see them five years later and all the things that they've been able to achieve and pull off. Like I think as a entrepreneur, that's awesome. But just seeing growth. And I think we're all very driven by growth. Everyone loves it. Like if you see somebody that's like, like how inspiring is this? Do you know what? I think I've mastered my skill and I'm just going to keep doing the same thing for the next five years. It's like, yeah, that's awesome. Cool story, bro. Yeah, cool story. And I think a lot of people probably are living that because it's comfortable where it's like, I know what I can do. I just go in, I clock in, I clock out, and I do it. I collect my things. Maybe it's- Maybe it's because they don't have enough people around them speaking to the future version of them. They're just speaking to the current version of them. Well, and I don't know if it's the same for you, but how much do you remember the people that saw potential in you that you didn't even see? Like I always remember those people more than anyone. I bring them up once a month. Yeah. Well, they're the people you remember because they're generally the people that pull you to the next level or guide you there. by providing an environment for you to be able to execute that. I still remember in 2014, sitting at a cafe called the Boat Debt Cafe with one of my good friends and mentor, Matthew Mihilovic. And I was starting out my speaking career. And at the time, I was charging about $400 a keynote. And I sat down with him and he goes, hey, let's write down some goals on what you'll be able to charge in, say, the next five to 10 years. And he wrote down $50,000. And I remember looking at that going, I think this guy's an idiot. Like, I think this guy's lost his bananas. And I always felt mocked and offended because it felt like too ridiculous. You know when someone's being aspiring, but they're so aspirational that it kind of makes you go, are you kind of messing with me? Like, is this even possible? And long and the short of it is that I ended up exceeding that amount. And it's crazy because I often think back to that moment because what if he didn't see that in me? Would I have had enough courage? Would I have dared to even write down a number like that for myself? So I really feel like this lesson that you're talking about in that if we can treat people... as they could be, as opposed to as they are, that would be such an amazing thing to do. If we speak to their potential as opposed to speaking to who they currently are, that has changed my life dramatically. Multiple times, I can think of many moments where people did that for me. And I often look back and go, wow, I wonder how much that contributed to me actually achieving these things. My guess is heaps because I think because if you think about every strategy, like say if you're achieving an outcome in your life, generally there's a strategy that underpins it. What Matthew gave you then was vision. And I think that's the bit that like if you think about even the role of entrepreneur or CEO or whatever it is, generally like on a practical level, they don't do too much. But they're the custodian of the vision. And then it feeds down from there. Some are good at a certain aspect, maybe it's strategy or marketing or recruitment or deal-making, whatever it is. But the core part of everything that happens within that ecosystem, once that world is built or created, it's done by everyone within it. And if you have more and more people that are then striving and on that track to, you know, I can't remember which book it was, but the line around, if you provide environments for people to express the truest version of who they are. That's where you can create a heap of magic. And again, when we think about companies like Apple, I think that's what they really bottled up pretty well is they got thousands of people believing that we're going to go and create something amazing. And that was Steve Jobs' vision of this is what we're about. And this is the standards it set. And it probably had some downsides as well where some people didn't thrive within that system. But yeah, I think in that case, that story you shared, he painted... the picture for you and then i'm sure he probably helped guide you and championed you along the way when you didn't really believe it yourself and you also did the same for me during the pandemic i remember you you had vision that i again just when you told me i didn't i went yeah whatever man that's not possible and you were opening my mind to the you know then what if you could instead of dealing in in one kind of transit like one you $50,000 deal or $100,000 deal? What if we did a $500,000 deal? What if we did a million dollar deal? And you fully opened my mind up to a whole new world. And I really believe that I wouldn't have been able to win over some of those contracts if it wasn't for you helping me see them in the first place. So thanks, man. That was a very eye-opening. You are a great CEO because you have such great vision. You see the, you see the, yeah, and really, man, absorb the gift because you can see the point in a way. Trash. Empty bin. This is gross. Shut your mouth. But really, man, you're such an amazing. see you're in that regard and that you can see the whole playing field and you can see moves that often many can't see so you're you're a great leader brother you are yeah thank you well yeah and it's i think it just goes back to that point really just stood out is in terms of potential you know like i don't know if i'm yeah like to me the the the title and the roles is like whatever it is but you At its core level, I just love the idea of building worlds where things can thrive and grow. Like, that's really what it is at the fundamental part. I'm not very good at practical things and day-to-day things. Like, even when I tell my mates, I'm like, I'm not a great day-to-day friend, but I hope that I'm a good friend when you really need something. Like, there'll be a select few things that I'll hopefully be able to do for you that you'll never forget, but I'm probably not going to be that person that calls you twice a day. Or picks up the phone every time or writes you a, leaves you a voice message. Whatever you want. You'll never be that friend. You'll never be that friend that leaves a voice message. It's about knowing who you are, right? But don't also discount how good of a friend you can be as well. I mean, we message each other, I would say on a daily basis. I mean, to the point where, But we make each other laugh a lot on text message, okay? I won't tell people some of the things that we say on there because it's pretty bloody inappropriate. But I know for a fact that this is how much of a good friend you are that you almost cause problems in my marriage because I'd be sitting there on my phone and I'd be giggling. I'd be like, hee, hee, hee. And Kaywin's like, who are you messaging? Who are you talking to? And then I'd be like, it's Ali. And every time she does that to me, it's always you. So it's like I'm having an affair with Ali. Yeah. Romeo the other day, I can't remember what we were doing. I think I was saying, yeah, we've got the podcast coming up. And he's like, is Vinny your girlfriend? Oh, my, that is. Yeah, like he wishes he was. He wishes he was. He does look like a girl a bit, doesn't he? No, no. Well, you know, you wish I was your girlfriend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you wish. No, no. It's a cool friendship, my friend. It's a cool friendship. But I think, again, it's because when we go back to this, I think, and to loop it back around to something that's more practical for others, is You'll have people in your life that just genuinely want you to become better and a better version of yourself. And I think the fact that we maybe have even an understanding of books like this somewhat, it helps us create the environment for a relationship that doesn't have too much dirt in it, if that makes sense. Like we can laugh and have these good moments and stuff because it's built of a foundation. Like, you know, we haven't known each other since World 15. There's a different style of relationship there when you've seen the darker sides of someone and seeing them actually evolve into who they are today. Whereas I think, yeah, there's a benefit there. And it's also the importance of fostering new friendships and relationships, even as you change chapters and you evolve a little bit more. And that's something I want to speak to just for a moment in that I think it's so important as adults to learn how to make new friends as well. You know, you're one of... What I would say, my adult life friends. Again, I didn't know you said, I mean, Lenny is my childhood friend. I've known him since I was in year three, right? I've known him for the most of my life. And that's a special connection. You know, it's one of the ones where no matter where you are in life, you meet each other again and it's just where you left it, right? It's one of those special connections. But don't hold back on making friends as adults. Some of the most fulfilling and some of my closest friends in my life are friends that I've made in my late 20s. mid-20s like you i'm so happy that i got to make such a wonderful friend so late in life and i hope to make even more friends in my mid-30s late 30s and you know finally get rid of some of the trash like you who don't leave voice messages i'll be updated upgrade oh absolutely absolutely it's 2015 and he's still on whatsapp texting i'm gonna i don't even know how to read anymore i'm gonna find somebody leaves me voice messages not upgrade in a heartbeat yeah you But I think a lot of the times we're shy about this and we don't make friends as adults because it's hard, because it requires a lot of vulnerability, you know, to say that, hey, I want to make some friends. It's pretty important. But man, when you don't have that, and I think worse, what happens is life gets in the way. Kids get in the way, right? You know, responsibilities, mortgage, responsibility. And then what happens after a period of time is, guess what? We have no friends. Yeah, it's true. And there's something so special. Like if you are lucky to have friends that you've known since you were a child, you know, like for- 10, 20, 30, 40 years. There's something so beautiful in those relationships. Like we just went away last weekend with, you know, I'd call my brothers because they, they kind of raised me growing up when I was in my teenage years and pretty much a Lone Ranger, you know? So I look back at that time as like the formative period of the core of who I am even today. And it's funny as life sort of progresses, you know, like we have kids, we get married, like we used to spend like probably four nights a week together and a lot of these guys would kind of part-time live at my house and you know would live out of each other's pockets would share everything like life was so intertwined but then you know life goes on and and it's amazing like we caught up the other weekend and because of the pandemic and stuff we haven't really got to see each other that much but it's crazy how it just it's just like riding a bike like you get into that environment and it's like we're kids again like the same stories laughing like little kids Like reminiscing on things that I'd, you know, forgotten about. And then you're just like, wow, how special is that to still have people now at this stage in life that can transport you back to that time and just sort of remind you of, oh, well, that's, you know, that's the core of who I really am and where it all starts. And then when you can then add it with new friends and new people in your life, like I think about the people that I've been lucky to meet over the last five to 10 years, just through, you know, more call it current interests. And this new chapter, like you combine that in and it becomes a pretty epic ecosystem and support network that you can add value to, utilize, talk to, share with on so many different levels. That's powerful. I mean, just hearing your voice while you were saying that, the experience you had, I felt so much joy. And I'm so excited for us too. Well, we're about to go away this December. It's going to be me, you, Dan, and Craig, and Lenny, which for me, it's a mix of new friends and friends from 25 years ago. And I just can't wait for that. So just again, speaking to the importance of friends and deeper connections. And this book gives us the tools and the foundation on how to... Build these relationships, foster them, look after them, nourish them, take care of them. This book is at the core of it all. Even just being able to rekindle a long lost relationship. You read this book and you're probably five minutes away from rekindling a relationship that you thought was dead and buried and lost. Like it's got that many practical tips in there. And I think that that is something where there is such a lost potential value. Where just because time has passed or something may have happened five, ten years ago, people are like, no, no, no, I just can't reach out to that person or contact them. You'd be surprised how often you can switch that relationship around. That's always been one of my viewpoints on relationships. I just never categorically view a relationship as finished, even if it ends on a sour note. You know, some people are like, oh, that person's dead to me. I'm never going to speak to them again. I can't recall ever saying that. To me, it just feels like, okay, well, that door is just not open at the moment, but we'll go and reopen that at some point in the future. I think it's, and again, this book, probably the guide. Yeah, that's special, man. And well, look, I- Let's close out this podcast on one more thought each, and we'll make this one a quick one. Otherwise, because I've just got a really yummy lunch, I've got to get to lunch in between it. You finish with the last thought, my man. It's yours. That was mine. All right. Well, the last thought is the whole concept behind dramatizing your ideas. In the world of magic, there's something that's really interesting that happens. I remember performing this piece of magic. I performed it for the bar owner. There was a bar called Distil, and that's also where I met my wife. And I performed a piece of magic for the owner there. And he loved it so much, he framed the card. So he took the playing card that I did the magic with, and he framed it in a frame and put it in the bar. And I remember going to the bar and one day hearing, just overhearing him describing to somebody else the trick that I did. And he describes it and he gets into it and he goes, oh, this guy's crazy, man. He made this card and then he made it float and then it flew around his body. Then it flew up into the ceiling. Then it came back down and it was ridiculous. And I'm sitting there listening to it going, I didn't do that. What the hell? I mean, I had this, I made the card float momentarily between my fingertips and then I grabbed it again. I didn't make it float around my body and fly into the ceiling. What the hell is he talking about? And I just went. This guy is a complete liar. And I remember he caught my, like he saw me afterwards. And then I went up and spoke to him. And I go, what the hell are you doing? Don't tell people I do this. You're setting the bar too goddamn high. And it was funny because he almost felt embarrassed that he did that. And he couldn't really explain what happened. We just kind of laughed about it. And I thought about this for a while. And I thought, ah, I know why people do this. People over exaggerate, not because they want to lie. They over-exaggerate because they want the other person to feel the intensity that they felt when they experienced that piece of magic. This is why everyone universally over-exaggerates the pieces of magic that they see is because they're trying to convey the freaking mind-blowing experience that they had when they experienced it. So the only mechanism they had to be able to do that was over-exaggeration. But then I saw it. I saw it happen. When that person was over-exaggerating this or dramatizing the piece of magic to this other person, the other person was like, oh, damn, shit. I wish I was there to see it. And then I saw the expression on the owner's face. It was like, ah, yes, they get how amazing it was. So to me, I learned fairly early on that there's value in transferring the enthusiasm that you feel into another person. And that is one of the biggest secrets in the world of communication and probably in the world of selling. Selling is basically just you being able to transfer your enthusiasm for a product or service into somebody else. And that's something that I think I'm very good at, because I learned how to do that through teaching. I learned how to do that to become so enthusiastic about this lesson that you're about to learn that my students are like, oh, damn it, I can't wait to learn this. And that's one of the reasons why I know that I'm good at teaching. It's one of my secret little weapons is I dramatize the lesson. And I know Steve Jobs does this. Before Steve Jobs talks about something, he goes, I'm about to unveil to you the most powerful, the smallest, the most remarkable product you've ever seen. So he's dramatizing it. So again, I think that's something to think about. Whether you're dramatizing something so that people feel the same feeling you felt when you saw a piece of magic, or whether you're... transferring your enthusiasm that you feel for what you do into one of your customers, know that this is a superpower. Know that if you learn how to do this well, you'll become extremely influential. That's the last point. That's what I'd leave everybody with. There you go. Well, look, thanks everyone for tuning in for this episode of our podcast. Do subscribe. Do consider leaving us a review if you haven't already. If you're listening to this and you're laughing along and you're going, wow, this is amazing and you enjoy it, which maybe a very small number of people do. But that small number, please go ahead. Go over, find our review page, leave us a review, give us five stars if you want to. And if you don't like it... Well, then don't leave us a review. Yeah, if you don't like it, don't worry about reviewing it. Yeah, if you don't like it, don't worry about reviewing it. Just don't review it. But thanks, everyone. We really appreciate you joining us for this episode. Looking forward to seeing you on the next. Bye.