what exactly and I don't want you to blush what exactly was your relationship with your daughter Anna well uh a relationship is um a negotiation uh uh the two people involved in any relationship uh know far more about it than the outside world who make comment on it but even they do not necessarily know what is going on within their relationship but what I can't tell you with Anna with regards to Anna she was a very special situation for me she was youngest child she was the youngest she was the least beautiful and she was therefore very insecure and very competitive with her sisters she suffered from depression she suffered from eating disorders and as a result she chose to come into the world of my work uh this was something uh that we negotiated together together unspoken perhaps but still uh she came into my world and once she came into my world and started to follow my work that was uh something definite for her to hold on to uh in a world that was very uh Topsy turby for her and so you might say that uh she gave me permission uh to lead her uh by her needs and her fragility but s for since I am a beh therapist if she would have come to talk to me I would have told her you go to medical school even with all your rationalizations and talking about why you did it um there was a flirtatious a kind of relationship I saw a picture of you walking in the ales with Anna and where was your wife well uh these were two two very different relationships my relationship with my wife was very uh conventional uh it was a we had a good solid sexual relationship that produced children but it was not an inspiration for me and my work was my inspiration are you are you saying that you don't even know if your wife ever had orgasms my wife is did not seem to me to be any more interested in uh sexuality than I was beyond producing children however my relationship with Anor was deeply sexual in the sense that we together explored her own uh libido and her fantasies in order that we could expunge them now when you I'm a behavior therapist and you would have thrown me out of your circle of um admirers or even adherence because I would not agree with you I true now I I don't encounter any issues of transference but what's fascinating so since you believe in the transference of the patient with the with the uh with youh um so was that also something that you worked on with yes uh transference and counter transference was Central to my work and with her and with my patients uh they would elicit attraction in me in their transference and I would uh experience that attraction with them uh we uh we worked very uh brutally and very honestly with these things but the brutality and the fact that we could call a spade a spade when there was sexual attraction between us allow took away the potency of it so it was never acted upon so s for are you saying that you also were attracted to your women patients I I was attracted to them and I dreamed about them did you dream about them absolutely did you dream that you had sex with them absolutely that was part that's a no no in my book but embarrass but I'm going to ask him Sigma Freud so here you we attracted you dreamed about them are you telling me that you afterwards when you were alone musturbate with them in mind well candidly Dr Ruth yes I of course candidly I did but I was not very good at it you have to come to my office I would like some tips I'll teach you yes have you got any I'll be very interested I have I have a a serious question um most of uh your belief was that women do have penis and and uh that's not would you if you were now with me m talking to me would you still believe in pen Andy yes I I think it is alive and doing well and the reason I say this is because uh uh we live in uh in your time is Modern with new ideas and equality uh but you know civilization is on his skin deep and is quickly removed as the nazist proved so well so you put people on Island and civilization will go out of the window very quickly and Bey be behind that the conscious civilized mind is The Reptilian mind the brain the Basic Instincts and when a little girl sees a naked little boy for the first time she still to this day says I want one of those uh because he's got something she hasn't got yeah but she but she also is being taught by behaviorist like me that she's the only one who can bear children but I I understand oh that's a very good point so now I want now I talk about sex all day long I think about sex so what what was that preoccupation of uh you were talking about the oral and uh the anal stage and especially what was that preoccupation that everything is uh really built on that sex drive on that liido uh well for me uh it was a it took uh quite a long journey to reach that conclusion and uh you know I think uh the from our part of the world there's a great deal of interest in anal doings and such but I I felt that uh that man had basic drives and I tried to remove men from from his civilized world and take him back to his place in the animal kingdom and I thought uh yes animals what do they need to do they need to eat and they need to procreate and so on that's how I so um the ous complex uh if you wear alive today uh would you still hold to that theory that the boy wants to be his mother's lover who wants to kill his father uh today uh with quite a lot of site now uh I realized that this is not a cut and right thing but that for me and perhaps for many uh uh this is true uh but that may not be so completely the rule as perhaps I first said yeah what about the Electra that the girl uh that the girl is uh is is in love with her father and and would like the mother to disappear is all the same firmly believe this still I I firmly believe this I I see it every day with young girls now I'm going to take you to task about something about the jewishness uh first of all um it's fascinating that you come from a Jewish background that your wife adhered to some Jewish ORS you didn't permit her to light candles is that all uh yes it is true it's true I hope if you come back to earth you're going to change your way well uh I I feel that uh at the time my obsession with my work uh was like many people who have achieved a certain kind of greatness uh much suffers around them much Falls by the wayside uh you have a man who made all the electronics Mr jobs he neglected his children his wife everything in order to fulfill his vision all not an excuse no the jewishness is a fascinating with me because I'm very Jewish and not Orthodox but adhere to Jewish values and in the Jewish tradition it says that a lesson taught with humor is a lesson of a t you did use humor so you you were really very Jewish you I would have to ask you what was that Deni was that only the issue about God and the supernatural what what was that denial of your judaic soul I think U perhaps there is some connection between that and my my failure to understand the soul of music I I think perhaps I uh I think I was a very tunnel vision man uh who who had his desire to achieve greatness in a certain specific way and I think much got neglected on the way is the is the not liking the music because you were worried about the emotions that the music brings about I I could not give myself permission if I did not understand uh the mechanism of my emotion from music I would not allow interesting but just before the end you seem to have liked the music the classical music that came from that radio of yours uh you know uh when you desire something I desire to understand music uh there is always the Hail Mary as you say and the Hail Mary pass to the to and and for me uh this wonderful man who visited me Mr Lewis CS Lewis such a diametrically opposed to My Views and yet somebody I felt such contact with almost as a son I the fact that he loved music yes I think why why can't I I try one more time most interesting and you did try now in the Jewish tradition you are not supposed to commit suicide you can't be buried in a Jewish cemetery if you commit suicide you didn't exactly commit suicide but you had an agreement with the doctor and Louis asked you if your wife knew about it did she uh she did not know specifically that uh uh that this was going to be the way I think that I spoke generally saying there will come a time when I cannot I had a hole in my face I had flies trying to land and lay eggs in me and and I said to my doctor there no more tment no more tment but I did not say oh tomorrow my de so if we want to uh leave uh the fian Legacy first of all from now on whoever hears the word forid is going to think of this actor am I right for me I'm thinking of the actor there's another movie out there I like this frud better don't you don't you quote me because but um would you for um would you have written a different play about yourself thinking of the audience of today 2011 and 12 yes I think quite a different play uh I think it would have been way too complicated and Nuance to be listened to but uh I think you have to understand that in the my time uh uh men showed affection for each other in a way that was as the Greeks that it was a nonsexual there were there were ways of expressing love uh and certain things that we did that did not were not tainted with sexuality and I think that my association with my daughter uh was a very profound exploration of a field that neither of us had been in before this was an exploration our therapy together nobody was there to guide us uh and the fact that we touched upon her sexuality and tried to heal it uh does not necessarily mean that I was what do you say uh diddling her so but you read one more question which makes me blush you were titillating her so we don't know if she how much she dreamt about you we don't even know in my behavioral Sex Therapy modality I can't say it I'm blushing if she if she didn't masturbate with you in mind I think she probably did you think that so seriously probably to well and the reason that I say it so seriously is because when you have to dig down until there is nothing hidden uh what is the very worst that we think and feel and what is the most taboo that we can feel bring it out into the light it is no longer a monster if we bring it into the light and we say you want to masturbate thinking about your father so let us talk about this let us get this out but never let this uh be taken Beyond uh where it should be and act at the part good so um do we know do we know the relationship of Anna with mother I don't see anything it was not close not close that's because of your fall yeah it I think uh probably we within the family would not even be able to fully explain it but I would say that from an early age she was very fragile argumentative uh her beauty became her naughtiness uh she did not get on with her siblings because she was in competition with them and she did not get on with her mother she came towards me later with her simple uh gentle uh learning she was just a very insecure Soul who needed guiding firmly but but you frud did what Jacob in the Bible did with Joseph you favored her you gave her a coat with many colors which would imply that her SI must become jealous of her did you ever think of that I think I uh leveled the field yes yes because it was very unfair towards her at first and then because she was so plain uh and later in life she said uh she did not marry because her love for me was all she wanted now I would not advise her that but that was how it was for her did she have a woman tooman relationship some people think with Mar who saved you you think that I think that and you don't know I don't know I would have died for curiosity to know that after our uh therapy together there were parts of Honor that would not I could not access and did you have a relationship not permissible by law by Jewish law with your sister-in-law uh no no that is my only comment do you remember when frud said what it doesn't talk about is more revealing than what he talks about thank you so very much now we let the audience ask you