we are back deep in New Mexico's choco Canyon this is peblo Bonito in choco Canyon this megalithic ancient ruin was constructed and originally inhabited by The ancestral paoan people about a thousand years ago and deep within the walls of peblo Bonito lies The Mysterious Room 33 when I first heard about Room 33 in PUO Bonito I really couldn't believe what I was hearing right was this the the group that had extra digits so the Park Service isn't allowed to talk about the burials but so they have found them here right I have a Hy friend had his DNA done and discovered that it matched the DNA of the two super guys in Room 33 and most of his DNA is May really yes wow so that says a lot doesn't it it does and it's very controversial he got caught in a big controversy incredible controversy was there any unusual features with the uh Elite burials at all well there was a lot of disparity one of them was said to have uh filed teeth and of course when you think about Stone buildings on the order of chako you think of Mexico then there are the dark stories this may be the most mysterious room in all of the desert southwest's ancient ruins if this information is true they're going to have to rewrite the history books the only thing that's certain is that this is a really big deal I think a lot of the answers are here [Music] nobody even knows this is here [Music] [Music] they have evidence and they dug down and they found proof our culture now with all of our technology and advancements we could not replicate this [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so join us as we look for the truth of what was all of this four why did they build these I'm Tom and I'm Sheree and we're enjoy the journey. life [Music] We are continuing our choco Canyon Series in New Mexico we film there for weeks including interviewing uh local experts including an archaeologist so be sure to subscribe for our full choco Canyon series and you can catch the videos we've already released with the link in the description and this code right here 100 years ago when archaeology was really just un people who went out and dug stuff up regulations and control you know the government had to get their hands in it they had a lot of exciting Adventures they also damaged a lot of stuff they also took a lot of things and sold them or gave them to private collectors and so we don't have access to any of that stuff for research purposes um people were really really disrespectful about human remains in the past no that's one of the reasons why today a lot of the tribes require the park service to not talk about burials because they don't want people to try and find them or cause more destruction so the Park Service isn't allowed to talk about the burials but so they have found them here right okay yeah each site has people buried in okay they're what we call High status burials which means they have a whole lot of grave Goods with them and very often it's just one person in a room or in a a designated area with their stuff and so that's an expensive method um especially doing times of drought you know if there's a drought going on and you bury someone and you give them clothes and tools and food and water and then you seal up the room and never go in it again that means that that person is either incredibly important to your group or very wealthy and can afford that because during a a drought the living are the ones who need all of those things a huge Discovery in choco Canyon in PBO Bonito was the Mysterious Room 33 well well so you mentioned this room 33 can you elaborate on that a little bit yeah yeah it was it was where they found the uh High status burials okay now the first archaeological dig was Richard weal and George pepper the hide Expedition uh the hide Brothers backed Richard weo uh before Cho uh on some of his archaeological digs I don't know how much you know about Richard weao and I have heard his name I know he was killed out there over a disagreement and his grave is out there that's correct that's correct it's quite the story I wish there was a movie made of it I have it written in my head I even have some of the cast members oh wow that's another story okay anyway so um uh he had guided a family out there who was interested uh they were itinerate musicians and they had heard about Bono wanted to go see it and uh they encountered Richard weo up in Manos where he had his Ranch and he was taking people to these places uh and uh you know uh doing tours uh the places at Mesa Verity that he is given credit for having discovered or rediscovered anyway they said we heard about this Bono would you take us down there he'd never been here but he brought him down 1895 and uh he went back to the hide Brothers back east and said I hey you backed me before this is really something there's this a described it to them and all of that just Bonito you know he wanted to dig Bonito and so they sent him out here uh but they wanted it to be a legitimate dig so uh they went to the um uh American Museum of Natural History and there they were given a young um archaeologist just out of school as I understand in his 20s never been out west George pepper the old man Putman was too old to come out but he sent this kid out he and Richard didn't get along really well but for four years they dug in Bonito and one of the first rooms was in that old section of Bonito Room 33 and uh there's a lot of description uh of that dig by Pepper he had to he went into the room um it one description of it is its width and length and all is about the size of a queen bed but it was a whole story and uh it was all covered of course and so when he went in he had to use candles and um uh he had to have a handkerchief with you know weten across his face he could last in there 15 20 30 minutes before he had to be dragged out you know before he started coughing himself to that and he was trying to measure everything and write it all down and he does that and he presents his paper you can read about it it's his his account of that okay and in that he found two burials they were almost intact High status two things can be said about that particular cash burial whatever you want to call it repository of something uh that sound contradictory more turquoise was found in that room with those burials that have been found in the rest of the prehistoric Southwest archaeological sites put together wow the second statement as they understood the importance of turquoise in chako the vast majority probably 99% of it of the turquoise that came into the canyon was worked turned into its product and sent out whatever they called choco it might have been turquoise Canyon whatever they called turquoise anyway those High status burials gave rise to the whole speculation that these great houses were like palaces for Kings you know whatever big time people and there were other small houses but there was very there wasn't as much evidence for those because they were totally covered over there single story the small houses mostly on the south side but there were some of that that was exposed so that they knew there were these small houses and so it was easy to say okay the rich people lived over here you know know in the big Palace you know they were the Kings or whatever you know and the poor people lived over there so that was one way to think about it but um as things progressed over time over the Long Haul they found not very many burials and no burials that look like these two in this one room never found that again now we're not talking just just Bonito now we're talking choco 60 70,000 square miles there's never been found another burial like that there's been things that have been found extravagant in their way but nothing quite like those two burials yeah you said that there was more in that one room for turquoise than has been found in the rest of the prehistoric Southwest archaeological sites put together that is like that's that's insane yeah was there any unusual features with the uh Elite burials at all well there was a lot of disparity okay in truth yeah and uh when people say what were the burials like well you know I just described those two and they were fancy you know carefully laid out but it's also said that another numbers differ but anywhere from another dozen to maybe eight or nine burials in that room they were just disarticulated bones thrown in now What story do you write up about that you've got way down below one of the high status burials now here's the story though when pepper did his study and wrote up his paper based on his measurements um he gave a certain narrative Steve plog who's one of the people that did the DNA study uh took his measurements and uh put them on a holographic depiction of that room the measurements did not comply with Pepper's conclusions his written description of what he was Finding he just assumed the two burials were together well they were 3 ft apart they were put in at different times okay you know so little things like that you know uh it wasn't that he was totally wrong it was just that if you look at his data which is where he got his conclusions it doesn't match somebody else looking at the same data right so is one of the people wrong or is it just that his his subjective experience about going into that room and making those measurements is very different from another person just taking the objective measurements and coming to a different conclusion so I don't know don't know what it all means but anyway it's a complicated story right with these dis articulated bones thrown in you don't just I mean how do you describe how do you explain that it could be explained in a variety of voice it could be a time thing because the first burial was put in when that room was very new that one way down below and I can't remember if the second one was put in about the same time I'm assuming it was I think I would know I would remember if it were real different but anyway it could be that the bones later that were all on top just thrown in well it might have been two or three generations later and who cared about what the old people cared about anyway you know you could make up that story you know you could make up almost any story I've I've heard that's part of the uh disagreement controversy around chako is because different tribes maybe different groups came in and then left that when you find something it's like a snapshot in time but it doesn't mean it was that way 100 years earlier exactly exactly Bonito was a building that was um that took longer structure to put together than the United States has been in existence that's a great way to say that because look at the changes the United States has gone through right and we're all in Whiplash right now so you know it's like yeah and and so yeah and you know people like Steve lexon who have had a long haul in chako put together uh uh changes that he sees in the architecture and suggest that that could be reflective of changes in their social order also you know different groups coming in and gaining Supremacy whatever um then there are the dark stories you can't discount them right you know there there are some things in Cho that uh that were probably pretty horrible uh the hopei have said that they were given this is how they put it they were given their ceremonies in Cho they were taken to Cho and taught the ceremonies so that that they could then go to where they are today I've heard it described as almost almost a university mhm yeah that's that often comes up too a place where people came to learn yeah and you said that and I maybe kind of even going back further that uh choco was inhabited even before they built all great houses yeah very much so it was a rich place before at least uh uh for the standards of the day were those the people that then started building above ground what would cause them to do that and most people think and this is probably true that we're talking about ideas coming from outside and of course when you think about Stone buildings on the order of Cho you think of Mexico right and we know from caca and Maca and parrots and uh uh copper Bells all these things that we know came from the south so they uh they really had a connection to the South no question I have a Hy friend and this is an extraordinary story so I won't tell you his name uh he had his DNA done okay now uh he wasn't raised Hy but he came out of the Hy Village and then returned and uh uh when I met him um I think it was about that time that he and his wife just moved to hopei it was two years after their marriage I met them in choco my first year but uh um he um um uh had his DNA done and discovered that it matched the DNA of the two super guys in Room 33 oh and because that DNA had just been done and it's very controversial it got caught in a big controversy incredible controversy because they did not do the tribal consultations both the uh um uh the researchers themselves some of whom I know and the institutions that they were doing this under the opes of not none of them did any consultation with the tribes about doing DNA on Bones from the ancient burials all of which should have been repatriated in 1990 after nagra but wasn't and now they're getting caught on that okay so you know uh it's an amazing story when you think about it but anyway and most of his DNA is May really yes wow so that says a lot doesn't it it does exactly what it says now you know there are all kinds of stories among U um The People's origin stories here and uh they're not consistent uh there are some overlays of course but even in a single um tribe that's a hard word because it doesn't really work but like if you call Hy a tribe you've got several different Villages they don't all think the same there's not a Hy a Hy world view there are Hy world views you know and the anyway and so uh coming from the south they talk about going all the way down to the tip of South America some of the traditions of the Hing going all the way down uh and going down today and uh recognizing rockart and then they came back to where they are now now it's easy to you know there's there that that's that's quite a story and and if you're going to put that story forth in the Western World you better have evidence for it and of course all they have are their oral Traditions when I say all they have that's the most important to them right and that's where nagpra is difficult for anyone to accept either whether you're on the indigenous side or you're on the scientific side because it tries to take into account everything oral tradition ethnography that sort of thing has the same weight has archaeological hard evidence has the same weight there I don't remember now the details but I think there are like 11 criteria that are all weighed and they all have the same weight you know from an archaeological point of view they want that archaeology to have the heaviest weight you know and you know to have the day else maybe a little science doesn't want all the stories right no yeah except that that uh the smart scientists do because they understand that there's something more you know about this after a hundred years I mean of of by the standards of each era pretty intense study in chako 100 years and we still can't answer basic questions you know and so the different researchers have their you know their line of sight and if they didn't have their line of sight their focus wouldn't give us the depth of study that they do give us but it also tends to narrow their world viiew so the ones that take more into account the natives and by you know even by some accounts uh Neil Jud in the 20s he talked to the older people who he was you know amongst who were all the natives and they told him a lot of things and you know he listened and wrote down a lot of things you know some of it was uh was kind of funny he he said there was an old man there who never went into Bonito and Jud asked him one day he said you never go inside you know I mean you work out here but you know you you know you never go in and he said the old man said there's a big snake in there it'll eat me and and Jud and Jud you know now what what a man meant by that I don't know and was he pulling his leg or you know we don't know we only know that that's what Jud said the man said to him and so jud's response was well I go in there all the time I've never seen this big snake and the old man responded that's because you're white you know he writes that down Jud writes that down you know so he had conversations with people that uh you know that could be reflective of having a little more sense of yeah there's other World Views here so kind of back to that Mesoamerican connection do you think that's how from the trips down to see the Mayans the Aztecs was that how they learned you know maybe how to build this way or people coming up from the south you know it's like uh during the time of chako just before that the Mayans this was they the Chans predated the Aztecs they overlap with the uh with the Mayans it makes sense that somebody from South either came up and saw what was going on and had these new ideas maybe those two guys those two burials where the guys were they showed signs of being visitors from the south when I say they showed signs of being that this is not conclusive one of them was said to have uh filed teeth okay now really filing teeth besides being the sign of a kingon is also a very uh common thing from the south so was he a visitor from the south these two guys were taller than the average other people who've been studied in terms of the burials I want to emphasize how I put that in terms of the other varials that have been so studied when you think about how much of choco has been excavated and studied there are different criteria for overlaying uh you know such a parameter onto this but you can say less than 1% less than 1% of choco has been excavated rather you're talking about just just the canyon or the whole 60 70,000 square miles I guarantee you less than 1% has been excavated wow I think I heard a little higher than that but it's not true but I also heard that they of of what's been excavated it's like a million square feet of living space potential living space potential yeahuh yeah but when you think about what there was yeah so any pattern that we find within a small database as the database grows that pattern could get totally absorbed and changed we may just be seeing the few that show this particular facil you know and so we make an assumption that most of the places had this because these two or three places had this that we studied and this could be anything the maa's parrots or ways they did the uh masonry or whatever but we find a pattern in two or three places and if we make the assumption that that pattern will hold that's the big if if you've only done 1% the patterns change all the time in many ways so we don't know we don't know you know right so in terms of the great houses the vast majority of them has not been touched so back to the these two so they were taller they were taller probably had better nutrition right do you do you suppose that if they came up from you know more advanced civilization advanced building techniques they show up and they become like maybe leaders because of their knowledge yes that this is a story you can write okay it's true it's one of many you know but yeah you could that how many more of those fellows there were Well we'd have to dig in all the great houses and find the few you know other burials like that to think that uh you know could two guys do it all was this the right was this the the group that had extra digits was that a a thing no not necessarily but that that was not uncommon and as fact as I understand it is not uncommon today okay it's just that it's they're just wiped off they just assume okay bump they take them off and it not a big deal you know you're young you know everything's pliable and rip it off you know I I don't quote me on this I don't know this but it is more common than people think I I just I had heard a story that that was one way they had like the the ruling class or the people with the extra digits or something there there's no evidence that I know of okay that overlaps that in such a way that you could make that state okay it's not a story I mean the evidence can fit that story you know but it's not like not necessarily that that's how I would put it I um I do the best I can in my interpretation to uh present what we know what we think we know what isn't agreed upon what is agreed upon you know and all of this I'm very cautious and U um because I don't think that uh there is any amongst any group scientific or indigenous that understands Choco The Story of choco hasn't been told I don't know if it ever will be but it hasn't been told yet but to know that it is um I hate to uh use words that might sound like anthropomorphizing it but it's a living being it's not something that just is reflective of an ancient past it is that but it's also so much else and continues to be throbbing with life today you know and uh when the whole story of choco is told it won't be ended with a thousand years ago that's the story we've picked up on because that's where we you know right um we've learned about it from that period of time and if you want to meet Tori in person check out salmon ruins in Farmington New Mexico we can't wait to check it out what did you find the most fascinating here at Pueblo Bonito and choco Canyon let us know in the comments again be sure to subscribe to our channel so you catch all of our ancient ruins videos including many more videos coming out about choco Canyon there are great houses and so much more to show you and actually you can watch one of those videos right here