[Music] when a victim of clergy sexual abuse comes forward there are two things she needs one to be believed and two for those around her to display courage and to hold the perpetrator accountable fortunately Deborah Perkins the first victim of Mike pickles to go public received both those things from some amazing Advocates welcome to the Roy report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Roy and in part two of my interview with Deborah Perkins you'll hear the powerful story of how her brothers and sisters in Christ banded together to support her and to confront evil it was an Army and we all went to war we've gone to war every day it's Kingdom clashing against Kingdom this isn't about exposing just sexual sin this is a system of evil and a system of darkness and men and women showed up you know showed up day after day and were so full of that courage to stand for righteousness but you'll also hear how leaders at the International House of Prayer people deorah thought were her friends stonewald and protected Mike and so did some of her family the devastation has been the Betrayal of friends and family it's just it's it's just unimaginable the the loss there this is a powerful conclusion to this important story with so many lessons about how to be Christ to those who have been abused and marginalized and so I am so eager to bring you this episode and it begins with Deborah telling what it was like to tell her husband Murray for the first time about the [Music] abuse March 23rd is when you hear that Bill Cosby test Bill Cosby's victim her testimony and then it was May that you divulge this to Murray at that point I mean what what is that that conversation like between you and your husband must have been I mean I just this must have been like one of the most heavy moments of your life the beautiful thing is Jesus gave me an incredible husband and we have an beautiful relationship and we are so close that it never even crossed my mind that it would it would be hard it actually was the first safe thing I could do um and so we were we were in Phoenix the beautiful weather it was a a gorgeous evening and we were sitting on a patio and I just said babe I need to tell you something and he could tell it could it was big and so I just I kind of just told him beginning with the grooming what happened and then leading up to um waking up and then to Paris and he just you know he's an utter shock right um and I have so much grace for the waking up process for everyone um I know how long it took me and I'm a Survivor like anyway um he just kept saying I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I'm so and that's all he could say and then and then that night as we went to bed I I remembered saying to the Lord I'm like Jesus there's so much more and he just kind of like hushed me like it's okay there's time there's time just this is enough for today and um so so that's how that but you know in that time we didn't think there was nothing in US of what's the next step we were just going to sit in this space and Murray was holding my story with such profound kindness and that that was that was just where we were you know um um so the Lord knew he knew how he was going to unfold it and we sure didn't wow and then it was about a month later the first person outside of your family that you told was Alan Hood who the former president of International House of Prayer the university and I mean I just heard his response the other night when we were talking as a group and I'll just let you tell it because it's it's it's so moving it is so moving um and I just it's beautiful to see how Holy Spirit leads us because I I it was just my heart's desire I was having coffee with Murray on a Saturday morning and I said babe I will call Alan and and he said well then do it and so I I just it was a cold call no no I did I think I text him I text him Allan can we talk and of course he was like sure and of course you know he's moved away like we haven't been in contact for a little bit but he's like my my my big brother and um we had we had a relationship where we could be honest with the other and kind of share things more at a heart level of even Mike and the organization um and it was a safe space right so I called him and he was driving at the time he was he's on his way to go to Israel um and so he pulls over as I'm telling him my story and he begins to whail and then of course I'm just sobbing with him and his tears honestly his response was what brought this forward I just it was like if this is the way that leaders respond and friends then it it it's just the courage that it gives like when anyone talks about my courage I want to say it was an army of us guys it was an Army and we all went to war we've gone to war every day it's Kingdom clashing against Kingdom this isn't about exposing just sexual and this is a system of evil and a system of darkness and men and women showed up you know showed up day after day and were so full of that courage to stand for righteousness um and so anyway so he he responded with with just the most beautiful tears and I didn't realize that that was just what I needed it was it was a gift the gift of tears was it was it was the part of the beginning of my healing at at a deeper level with Allan's tears and I have to say in my it's been about six years of reporting on abuse and Corruption within the church what I saw happen at International House of Prayer with these former leaders and their response and the way they gathered around you as an army truly and and it's not to say there are heroes and practically every story um but mostly the hero is the victim and so much of it falls on the victim you know the victims are already been victimized once and now they come forward and so often instead of getting the support like this of of people lamenting what happened with them which what a beautiful gift he gave to you but instead of that they get they get questioned they get you know gaset like they're crazy which makes them doubt their entire story like is this true they they get vilified publicly it's it's like instead of what should happen and friends this is what godly people do they gather around like the vulnerable the marginalized the wounded that's that's who's God's heart is for like you can't read scripture and not see that that's what godly people do the ungodly people go after the victim and try to silence the victim and if you want to know who's Godly or ungodly in a Ministry look for their reaction when something like this happens and it will become very clear Who The Godly and the ungodly ones are but what a beautiful thing and a testament to these former leaders and their relationship with the Lord and and your relationship with the Lord and and some of these survivors there I I mean it's I I have said this before but it is so true I report on the worst of the worst but I get to be with and and partner with some of the best of the best in bringing these stories up because truly the survivors you guys are like purified by fire and then people who put their neck on the line which is eventually and we'll get into this what happened they were willing to put their reputation on the line for this they were willing to pay a cost for this and it always kills me when so many of these stories come forward and people give me excuses why they can't go on the record or why they can't tell their story or why they can't help in this situation and every single time I sit there and I think did they expect that following Jesus should cost them nothing and you really do find out who stands with Jesus when they're really willing to let it cost them something because that's what following Jesus is all about and I think a lot of people can can say the line and and they're really when the when the rubber meets the road in situations like this they're a lot like the Rich Young Ruler that when it gets asked of them to give something they don't have it to give but this story what happened with these people and so many of them just dear you know alen Hood Samuel Hood John oal I mean these Dwayne Roberts I mean these these people stood up and it in such contrast to and I know I'm on my soap box I'll get off in a second but it's no keep going it is such a contrast to some of these some of these men who get up and they're you know they give such a good line about how men should be on the front lines for women you know and um and when it comes right down to standing for women they're cowards absolute cowards or a misogynist or both um but just just awful so anyway I just this the way these these men responded in this situation is so heartening to me it's inspiring and super super important but there was also a another woman who played a huge role in all this and again she's going to be joining us at the restore conference and that's Elizabeth herder um former leader at IHOP you felt safe after talking to Allan you went to Elizabeth just days later because this was late uh June you talked to Alan and July 4th you talk to Elizabeth tell me about that conversation yeah Elizabeth again there's just such a beauty because we've been friends for decades right and so the amount of love and trust is there and only only God could do that for this moment um and we all worked for Mike so we we have shared experience and so yeah I was if you want someone in your corner you want Elizabeth H her in your corner she's got red hair on purpose like I mean I just it was you know again she had been going through so much as an advocate for another victim in this tragedy and um so she had been in the front lines her her life literally being devastated and destroyed she stood and so she is she is the Forerunner of forerunners in this and so by the time I'm sharing with her yes it's nuclear but she was ready to hear it um and again just the kindness of the Lord in the way that he led us all and so yeah sharing with her um she was just my sounding board this entire time and I just trust her and she's just so smart I just trust her on all of the so I would just like what should I do what should I do and and she was just that person um who was safe um so humble so Godly um but courageous and she was just going to be that support for me in a way that was it was powerful um so she too she I mean you know she was just utterly undone as I tell her my story but it's it's the piece that's missing to make sense of the whole puzzle when when you get for those who had been at IHOP especially leaders you you you could smell the underbelly like you knew something wasn't right but you couldn't put your finger on it and when I shared my story I feel like she you know again she said say I take I I if I didn't take the crazy pill Mike's the evil evil man he's evil man and um but that even that takes so much time to sink in you need time you just the the the shock factor of of the grief you need time the level of betrayal the the there's so much brainwashing that took place for all of us for so many years we gave off our Blood Sweat and Tears to this it was our life blood and and we helped him build this from the ground up and we didn't know now were we doing it for Jesus yes I mean obviously we had to confess those idolatry and different things and we've all been detangling for a long time but so so yeah um Elizabeth was just my beautiful friend that that was there every step of the way every step to to to hold my hand um and I needed that and so it's it was it was really beautiful and and then we can also she she really had a lot of um because of what she had walked through we could see a lot of the patterns of Mike with other women and so that was so helpful as we could we could just start seeing the lines the codes the the different things that he he was using all along yeah and again I mean some of the stuff she was seeing with Mike's son Luke again this video comes out and you would think when you bring this to Mike this is what your son's doing this is the woman he's involved with that immediately he would call them to accountability not at all not at all and and the the the poor husband of this woman who was having this affair with Luke unbelievable what he's been through and and that's not really my story to tell but Elizabeth was seeing the in congruity uh between the Persona of who Mike is supposed to be and then who he actually turns out to be there are also things in this whole story and again I don't want to steal the Thunder of of other folks who probably can tell these stories better but but even with um with other people in The Advocate Group who were getting dreams you know and this is something where I was like boy I I I know coming out of this I think all of us are like and I've always I was in the vineyard for a while and one thing I I appreciated about the vineyard was that they really would encourage you to if somebody gives you a word be Discerning about it you know be Discerning and and you know it it may be true it may not be and and you need to be able to sift through that um but the way when you see somebody Wicked like Mike using it in such a a manipulative fashion but then to see how your own dreams but then there were other people who were getting in The Advocate Group who were getting dreams and Visions before it it even came out before that they heard from you and so they began to just be primed to to receive this and and I have said this from back in 2019 till now like I even feel like what I'm doing I I never asked to do this I never really wanted to do this it I felt like I was recruited I happened to be in a spot where it it became a a crisis of conscience whether to report these things and it's just been like this just snowballing but I have believed this is a way this this is a move of God to purify his church and it's going through you know it didn't start in the charismatic movement now it's in the charismatic movement oh my goodness um I I have a feeling it's going to be there a long time because there is a lot more to uncover um and that even we're working on stories right now that I'm just like I just just the rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper but over the summer you you guys are are coalescing and trying to figure out what to do and that's you know that's you know when you have something like this and you have a figure like Mike who is an international figure it's tough to figure out what the next move is in septe on September 30th uh was it Dwayne Roberts who met with uh it was steuart Greaves correct and began to say hey there's some women that have been abused by Mike ble what happened from your understanding in that meeting well Stuart um was he basically told Dwayne that he would talk to Dwayne but if Dwayne told one other person then all communication off and so from the very beginning it was Dwayne going to him and it was just not going anywhere but you know all of us just wanted to believe that Stuart was going to do the right thing right this this has been a friend and a colleague for 20 something years who were hoping that now Elizabeth is saying no you can't trust him I've just been doing this but we were stonewalled at every point from all of them um Dwayne was hopeful at first that it was going to be um effective with Stuart but it was just to buy time he was giving all of his information right back to Mike and and they were trying to get ahead of the narrative the whole time and tell me how he used Matthew 18 to really manipulate you guys to keep you silent right to keep the story under so I had told my immediate family um my dad called a meeting and so here I am I'm not ready I didn't want to tell my family I didn't feel like they were in a place to be able to hold my story um we're all at different places in our journey with Mike and IHOP and so but after that um one of my family members went directly to Mike with my story so that was on July 5th of 2023 so July 6th we my husband and I start getting so many emails from him I would say eight to 10 emails a day and they would be about prophetic words or just loyalty to him or um not threats yet um he doubled his support support to your your husband's Ministry yes okay yeah wow so you know he's just using every tactic at this point um and so with in Matthew 18 one of my family members who's clearly her loyalty is to him um she yeah to Mike she she wrote me a a handwritten letter and put it in my mailbox of pleading with Murray and I to do Matthew 18 and um and just it was paragraph after paragraph and of course I love her I'm you know it's it's just it was really hard and at this point again we didn't know to how we were to go forward there there are no Elders that there's no place for an appeal um Mike's already covered all his bases where he's he reports to no one there's no accountability because at this point he he is not formally with the International House of Prayer he has his own ministry right Friends of the bridegroom yeah and so and that really has a you know kind of a a faux board even International House of Prayer used to have a real board but then that was pretty much disbanded and it didn't didn't really have a board then at that point either so yeah I mean I always harp on governance issues and people hate to hear them but it's so so important to have true accountability and independent board members who are not employees who are not best friends who are not all those things so even though Matthew 18 was not the right way forward that's what we ended up doing when you say not the right way forward I mean my understanding Matthew 18 where it says to go oneon-one then if they don't listen to you go you know take a brother or you know another person with you and then if they won't listen that to that person then take it to the whole church that's dealing with personal offenses this is not dealing with a a a Christian leader person in a position of authority who is in flagrant sin um that's and and it's insane to think that you for example should go one-on-one to your abuser um but that one it's 1 Timothy 5:20 that if an elder persists in sin then you should expose him before all so that others may take warning I it's Matthew 18 has to be the most abused and misapplied verb and it's always in this I mean I hear about it and practically every single time this comes up this comes up people well Matthew 18 people to keep them silent and to manipulate them and to control the narrative and it's just it's just Wicked and and people need to know when someone says Matthew 18 in this context you need to cry foul it's not the right verse it's not the right passage but again it at this point you're trying to pacify as much as you can the leaders there because you're thinking they'll do the right thing I never thought they would um uh because I I too had already you know confronted so many different things and um and I had been stonewalled and I knew how Mike operated with both Stuart and sler um and so I I knew that was you know his flying monkeys so I I knew it wasn't going to go anywhere but um maybe we were just trying to do the righteous thing and that was that and you know I so honor and respect Dwayne and Jennifer Roberts and this they they too um are just extraordinary in the way that they've stood with us and they were the ones that really actually initiated this this whole process so the first time they first meet it's Dwayne Roberts um meets with steuart Greaves and Stuart says you got to go to Bickle oneon-one because of Matthew 18 right so and then on October 2nd Dwayne Roberts meets with Greaves again I understand it got kind of heated at that point um and then on October 9th your husband says okay fine sounds like I'll go I I'll talk to Mike and so he sends him an email that day A lot happened that day so describe what happened it was early in the morning and Marie's Marie said that he just emailed Mike and it was kind of like just a surprise like just like we didn't want to make it a big deal right so um hey Mike could we meet um and Mike's like yes um and Marie says can I bring Dwayne and Mike says no um um and so he actually wanted to meet right a aways so it was like Murray literally got in the car after that to go meet him like it was right a aways and so um when he got there Dwayne also was there and Mike said no I'm not meeting and so Dwayne just to be a support was still there not in the room but was was there and um so yeah M Murray um he went in and was so courageous and he shared my story um in the grooming process and um and then up to Paris um and Mike you know he had a smile on his face like he's not going to be mean but with a smile he begins to threaten maray um and saying you know if you if you make something of this then this is going to happen to you and I'm going to tell the world this but and the world will believe me um about you or about me and um just threatens financially threatens threatens every different way of what would hap what's going to happen to us if we do this um but he does it all like you know with his smile and and and just he's trying to keep his like warm personality and not look like he's terrified um and so that was that was rough um but Marie you know held the line and um so then he um he has just like 10 minutes between that meeting and then he was going to go in with Dwayne to talk to Marcy and Stuart that was the next meeting Marcy Sorge who's a board member or something at that point or leadership team leadership team yeah maybe maybe she was also on the board then I don't know this the board switch was even a board yeah yeah so okay so he just sees me for 10 minutes and he's like Mike said he was going to do this this and this and I'm like he's got nothing on us babe we got this we got this and he goes okay um and I mean just just to think like spiritually like demonically like to know what you're really up against um like I had a I had a powerful dream where I had screeching sounds and it was almost like I was on at the doorstep of hell trying to scare me like I I don't think we really understand what standing for righteousness is is doing um in in something like this this this was not small this was big and it and I believe it was also God's timing um so then that was when Dwayne and Murray went and talked to Marcy and Stewart and at that point they they responded um you know kind cordial to them and then and then um stonewalled us from there like we couldn't get a meeting um it was now there's war in Israel and you know so I know that you just came with us to us with all of this but Israel's more important and you know like they just tried to buy time Mike starts his betrayal series they're still platforming like um it was a mess and I have the sermon that they allowed him to preach so again this was October this was October 9th that this confrontation happened that you just explained and they allow him it isn't until the 24th that they make any announcements so during this like 15 days Mike is allowed to preach what's now been termed his black horse sermon where he talks about you know having this vision of a black horse and um the angel M Archangel Michael appears to him I have just a a clip from that I want to play because it's really something and you can I think when you hear this you you'll see um what he's doing well the enemy's plan the Revelation 12:1 very famous Satan is called the accuser and this will seem like an exaggeration but accusation is actually his number one tactic it's not even fear it's not even murder it's accusation we'll get there in a few minutes a lot of folks knows he uses but they don't realize it's actually number one and the Lord is saying that Satan's plan is to accuse the global Body of Christ because he wants to hinder the body of Christ from being vessels of mercy and Glory that provoke Israel to salvation but if the body of Christ gets embroiled in accusation they will turn on each other and then Israel will not be provoked it's not going to work but that's what he wants there's a betrayal culture in society but more dangerous is the Betrayal culture within the body of Christ this is an urgent call not this weekend for this next 5 years is what I mean 10 years to engage in a preemptive strike against Satan's strategy to launch AC accusation to destroy the body of Christ the Lord wants to strike back at that strategy of Satan did you hear that sermon when he it I clearly wasn't in the room but I I think I I could I could hear parts of it and then I'd have to turn it off um but he actually mentions my birthday and like literally is like threatening me from the platform in a way that only I would know you know I mean because it's my birthday but he had he had set lie to us about that my birthday was on his biggest day of his life and that the day that I was literally born he got the biggest prophecy about being like David so you know for all of the years he had used that and so then he now uses it in his message um so it it was layered it was thick it was pretty it was awful it was really really and again the devastation has been the Betrayal of friends and family it's just it's it's just unimaginable the the loss there I mean it's just so so clear in what he's doing in there I mean he he is so important that the Archangel Michael comes to him but it's very clear the the accusers they're they're like Satan I mean it is the classic garvo of deny attack and the reversing who's demonic Mike's demonic who's aligned with with Christ those who are telling the truth and and here's a thing that gets me too is the accuser never in scripture is the accuser someone who is coming to someone and confronting them about uncon sin the accuser is Satan for those of us who have confessed our sin you know he is going before the father and accusing us constantly you know those who have been forgiven who have confessed their sin but it's never those who are being confronted with unconfessed sin that was that's what Jesus did he confronted people with unconfessed sin it's what the prophets did and it is just so evil how this is done but it's being done over and over again like just just yesterday Perry Stone it'll be actually several days ago when by the time this this comes out but Perry Stone comes out with with this message and this is a man that has his own skeletons in his closet you know allegations towards him but now he's saying again there's this accuser that's happening they're evil they're they're Wicked I am glad that you have the strength and the knowledge of God that you know this isn't true at the same time when this is done to you and done publicly like that what does that do to a Survivor the beautiful reality was although the sexual abuse although the Betrayal went to the next level accusations I had known suffering for all of my years you know with with Jesus and so I I just am so grateful that I I could know him in that way know how to go to him in that way know that he is at the bottom of any of my pain that he went the full distance and and so to just be able to attune to the suffering servant Jesus what was it like when when Judas betrayed you Jesus what was it like when you hung on the cross when you walked the the passion like what was it like and and so that Jesus showed up for me and when he is your friend when you know when you can weep with him when he can weep with you that's where you find this the strength and you know forgiveness has been a big thing um I I have to work that muscle um and and so to just pray for my enemies of course you know when it's so funny how we never think that the those that betray our enemies are going to be our friends and our family um and and it's just it's it's so painful but the fellowship of suffering is the sweetest thing I think I'm gonna experience on this side you know and that Jesus has been so kind and so present that um that space is where I I I am and um and it's with him and so so but I think I think still to see the the way the enemy works and the way the enem is working through the body like um it's it's so important for us to truly be the wise as a serpent innocent as a do and this is a moment globally where let's let's Get Low let's learn let's be a student of Jesus like he's doing something let's have the fear of the Lord um I I it's a holy invitation and yeah um so I'm I'm grateful I think I've I'm always looking for joy to find that joy and even the hardest darkest space and um my dad called it um doing push with an elephant on your back um and and so just to find the joy in the midst of the in the midst of the Betrayal and in all of the suffering to find that Joy um it becomes more powerful and it's it's kept me it is truly entering into Jesus sufferings who was falsely accused who was abused it's and and I the reality of that and what you just said and just hearing that from you it's really a beautiful testimony um so after this horrible sermon absolutely horrible glad it's his last sermon and I hope it always will be um but on October 24th um there's a larger meeting with Stuart Greaves Dave sler Marcy Sorge Lenny LaGuardia uh with your husband to hear these allegations um the next day Dwayne Roberts gives them a 50-page document Which documents in in a not naming the victims um but he thought I believe when he gave that to Stewart it was going to stay with Stewart not go directly to Mike ble which is what we know now happened there was then led to 3 days after that IHOP leaders say there's been some allegations against Mike and I remember that because this is when I get alerted to the story and no details no details given not even saying that they're of a sexual nature and um and I'm forgetting the name of the the gentleman right now but one of the former leaders stands up and basically says this is BS yeah Dean Briggs Dean Briggs that's right my hero oh it was great I mean he stood up and had the courage to say This is BS and then on Sunday there was an amendment to that you know they gave a little bit more but we have seen again just if you've been following the story if you haven't followed it go back we've got an entire tab at website on on IHOP and on Mike Bickle and the you know the the way this is has been mishandled has been pretty epic as epic as the yeah as epic as the uh Advocate Group has been good I would say uh IHOP their leaders have been bad the article then drops you come forward uh to to Rebecca and I I I can only imagine after holding this thing for decades telling it to a reporter but then the day it publishes what was that like for you when that published it was like jumping off of a cliff um I think I had already gone through um enough of like the Betrayal with with the IHOP leaders that um I I knew it needed to be done and I had the strength of the AG with me and so it it it was obviously it's scary but it felt good and right um I didn't expect the amount of attack against me after that and just all the things on the internet um it it was like wow you know you you go out there you put your life on the line and and just you don't ever expect the how the body of Christ will respond because I'm not surprised by the world actually I am surprised by the world the world has responded with kindness It's the body of Christ that has has it's it's just been out you know outrageous um but I'm just honestly it it was an honor um but obviously painful as well scary as well but it felt so good and so right and like I said even with because I probably had I would I think I counted about 25 dreams in 2023 about what was about to happen so I felt the Lord is with us he's with us um the the length of time it's taking for like and IHOP's continual responses has it's just been hard but um but I trust I trust the Lord and I trust his timing well and since then there have been a number of Investigations I think a lot of us saw them as faux investigations really more internal ones um but IHOP did hire uh a law firm again when you hire a law firm they have a fiduciary responsibility to their client so unless you take some measures like making sure that um your contract allows them to have full Independence and that you're going to publish everything without without having it come through you and then sanitized and then to the public um yeah a lot of people didn't really believe that that was going to be a a really independent investigation you refused to participate in it as did a lot of survivors at the same time what we've seen now is that the veracity of your story has stood up over time and there's been none of these investigations and I'm guessing the one that will come out or by the time this comes out again may have already come out is going to support your veracity and I mean do you feel I don't know Vindicated is the right word but have you felt that over time because it seems like people are are I rarely run into anybody that doubts the truth of your story at this point yeah I I like I I said I have an army of friends um and they they have shown up so strong um with so much honor um and it it's just been the healing bomb the whole time so yeah I I I think behind closed doors I feel validated and Vindicated before the Lord I feel validated and Vindicated um I publicly um I'm hoping that even putting my name in face to this um can be a part of um I don't know just bringing the clarity that you know because without that there's just so much confusion you know and there's so many Jane do's and and what really happened and they're you know and they're reading my story instead of hearing it and so I'm just hoping this can bring some some clarity um and just more truth to to this moment I hope so too and I will say there is something in hearing a person's voice that the truth you know you can kind of tell somebody's telling the truth um and if they're lying and uh have always felt and I think when people meet you and your godliness and the the depth of your conviction comes through and it's really it's man all of the women I will say that I've encountered uh through this story have been powerhouses and it's really kind of kind of cool um well count yourself in we're so honored to be talking to you oh well I mean really all I do is is give a platform but it's the women it's the victims the survivors that come forward you guys bear the brunt of it what I do is so much easier than what you do and so you you guys are are my heroes and um just so proud of of all of you in February so like a year ago now um in fact I think Tammy was it's a while because Tammy's going to be at the restore conference telling the story from stage and it was literally a year ago um that she came out with her story um of how Mike Biel had abused her again starting when she was 14 years old but you were key for her I mean that's that's got to feel pretty pretty good because she felt like you said you were the darkest secret she was his biggest mistake as as she would think of it um to know there were others and then talk about when when you guys talked and even when when her story came out it it had to been incredibly uh I mean it corroborated so many things in your story because again there's patterns with predators and Mike had very definite pattern so talk talk about what that has been like for you one to read the story but then to to meet Tammy and to begin unpacking both of your stories together I mean must be amazing yes it's been amazing she is the most beautiful gift from Jesus um in all of this like we are sisters to the end I mean it is just it's just it is healing it is it's powerful it's sweet it's tender um the gift of friendship um with our shared experience um so yeah when when her story broke it was like I felt the the glory of it like it was so powerful um and at the same time the I felt the level of betrayal and so there there was a lot of tears that day because of all the people that were my friends and family that had tried to um you know come against my character say I wasn't credible um you know change the narrative and um attack me and all those things well now they didn't see Tammy's Story coming and now they couldn't do that anymore but in light of that like no one still to this day um has said they're sorry or said that they believe me of all of those people and so of all of your family my family my family believes me um and they they have from the beginning but it's been the way that they've stood with me is buied and different ways some have been so fiercely with me others have not been um and so so so it was this stunning I mean like stunning I mean to to read our story I I you can't I don't even have the words um just because I mean every every detail he takes her to an Italian restaurant buys her wine like it just it was the same script I mean and he's 25 with me was 42 I just it it just blew my mind but was the deepest sense of strength um um and comfort like um when when her story broke and then to meet her um talk to her and then meet her it's just it's just been so beautiful it's truly Beauty for Ashes it it is a story of redemption and um there's just too much similarities um so it's been it's been amazing yeah and and as you guys have talked there's been some surprises aren't there like things that you sort of more light bulbs went on with what had happened yeah I mean we could when we talk it's like the light becomes so much lighter like just bright and then the evil the perversion the darkness just is that much more gross and defiling and you just can't even believe that a man could do this yeah but like one of the things I I thought I heard you guys talk about was even the code language like he had a code with you just like he had a code with her and yeah again you know that what you said was true but there's still a little bit of you know from from what I understand it's so unbelievable that someone like this would do it that there I mean is there ever like a voice back there like saying this is a little crazy you're not remembering this right you know I mean does that ever does that happen and like when you meet somebody else that has the exact same story is it like okay I'm not crazy yeah definitely I I I think it it did have that I don't think I ever was like am I remembering this right because it it was too much too long too much too much trauma but it did do that now that you've you've been through this incredible journey and I I know it's a journey that will continue for quite some time but what is it that you have learned through this about abuse and about advocacy and what survivors need from the body of Christ it just shown me so much more who Jesus is through this Army that that can care for you sit with you love you it's just it just shows yeah um I I've seen my Jesus through the body of Christ and that has been stunning um just about as stunning as the evil that's been done it's it's just it's like when Jesus says in Matthew 13 that the wheat and the tears grow up and mature together I'm seeing this beautiful righteousness of care of kindness of Love of support and then at the same time the wickedness is is it just takes your breath away with how evil it is so I I I I think um I'm seeing the beauty of relationship in the body of Christ as the most precious thing um it's I I want to I want to move slower um in life and and and count every time I'm with someone to to be able to to honor them to love them to to be with them I just feel like um I I'm Different coming through this and I want to live differently as as I move forward I don't know exactly what that will look like yet but I I have new rhythms with Jesus now and and and it's slower and I have more capacity um so I just I've seen him through his body and it's been a unique beauty to see I know what you're talking about and I'm so looking forward to having you come to restore because the community to me is the best part of the whole thing that when survivors get together it is so beautiful and The Advocates that have stood for them those that really get that God's heart is is inclined most towards towards the Survivor towards the wound towards the oppressed and and I think those who show up who care about the least and the the marginalized it's it it really is something and I think I was saying in our first first restore I thought I had to have a prayer team there to pray for people because I know so many wounded people were there and then I realized this is the prayer team it's all of you and nobody knows yeah nobody knows how to minister to a Survivor like another Survivor or someone like Elizabeth that has walked alongside another Survivor and they I tell you what there is going to be some some jewels and some crowns when we get to heaven for these people who have walked so Faithfully so um Deborah thank you so much this was such uh an honor and a privilege to get to know you a little bit better and again just thrilled that I'm going to see you in person and you're going to be able to make this conference so excited thank you Julie it's been an honor and I look forward to seeing you too [Music] soon and thanks so much for listening to the Roy report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Roy and just a reminder that the Roy report is listener supported so if you've appreciated these podcast and want them to continue please consider helping us out with a donation to give just go to Julie roy.com /d donate that's Julie roy.com donate also please subscribe to the Roy report on Apple podcast Spotify or YouTube that way you'll never miss an episode and while you're at it I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again thanks so much for joining me today and God bless [Music]