by the way I have to let the rabbi know I'm much as a Jew as he is born of a Jewish mother a yemenite grandmother a yite perican mother a Ethiopian Hebrew uh father better Israel by the way they call us falasha for whatever their reasons thus I am as much a Jew as the rabbi or the grand rabbi in Israel any of the grand rabbis in Israel is the rabbi stating here that in the Book of Genesis there is no mention of the extermination and I use the word genocide of the seven tribes of uh the amalekites the Hittites the mobites the jebusites he in his own statement stated that this is aerated somewhat in the book of Samuels everybody saw that but the book of Samuel doesn't change the book of uh of Genesis and we remember that Genesis wasn't written first it was Exodus it's at the Council of Jamia that they decided to write Genesis next uh since there is no Jewish race you know you have Indian Jews from India from kashim Jews look like any Indian you have uh ourselves from Ethiopia by the way the rabbi wouldn't forget that it says Moses married the daughter of the high priest of Ethiopia or Kush uh uh being a rabbi he will know this uh second uh more over about the bitah and I went through one like the rabbi went through one around the same period of time is the rabbi saying that the bis is not a commitment to the people isn't the Torah demanding and I don't talking about the talmud talmud is not Torah the Torah is supposed to have been written by God or passed down although it was in fact written at the Sanhedrin the the the theory the mythology the allegories that it's written by God or pass down by Moses again is a myth that's Jewish mythology because Moses is is dead in wrong 1196 before the Christian era whereas the San hind doesn't release a thing called the Torah until about 700 before the Christian era which was written from 700 before the Christian era to 500 it took 200 years uh there's a commitment in anybody that any child that's being bit when you're talking about circumcision of women that is strictly Western and it has nothing to do with Orthodoxy they're using the word Orthodoxy to mean something there have been a circumcision it can be a circumcision of young of girls but anyhow let that continue uh the point is that in the Mah it commits the boy when if you commit yourself to the community there's a call to return to Israel there's a call that everyone every child I went through it that you must come back to Israel if that if that isn't a fact the rabbi can say what he wants his his position of or ADL position of fear of this then let's look at the behavior uh it is just like saying today you know one time the rabbi I don't know it personally but the ADL and all the other Jewish organization one time didn't recognize that we exist as fashes it is something in America American Jews have decided that they're going to speak for all Jews and not only for all Jews you remember they said blacks and Jews I could I'm black and Jewish you're white and Jewish you're European you're of European Jewish ancestry I'm an African Jewish ancestry no more claim to Israel than I have because there's no Jewish race okay let me continue the rabbi forget he says that Abraham he points to Judaism coming from Abraham then I said that the rabbi obviously have not read The Ten Commandments and they Source the Moses is not until about 1346 before the Christian era 49 years after the death of amep the fourth otherwise known as akineton every one of those 12 So-Cal command ments and uh that Moses supposed to have gotten M SI by the way mon SI is still in Egypt in Africa hasn't gone any place now those Ten Commandments weren't gotten by by Moses I because I'm Jewish don't mean that I have to listen to I have to follow the mythology when you go in any of the major tombs in Egypt you find those 10 commandments plus 32 more otherwise referred to as a negative confession am might to believe that Moses was born in in in in in Misan Egypt about 1346 before the Christian era went to school there uh become a priest at the age 85 or around there decided that somebody mistreating his people and that it it in every school in Egypt you had to recite the negative confession 42 laws of which that says I have not killed men or woman I have not stolen this I have not every one of the So-Cal Ten Commandments is already stated that Moses didn't see it I would like the rabbi to tell me where does it show that Abraham taught any of this I would like the rabbi to tell me before circumcision in Egypt where did the Jews have circumcision they said that Abraham's circumcision is part of what made him uh Jewish then the rabbi must tell me the worship of the golden calf which they call the golden calf isn't that the worship of ha the goddess ha we could go on down this isms Dr bend that was voiced by R by Sela is that you suggested that that there is a political overtone in the ritual Bar Mitzvah and he objects to this can you substantiate your statement if you went to any B Mitzvah there's a lecture after the young man and before the young man there's a lecture of the young man's commitment it is a lecture in my commitment every child if the rabbi is sitting here and tell me that the rabbi doesn't get up and get a lecture about the B and the youngster doesn't pick out a section of the Torah to read and that the youngster doesn't get up there and make a commitment to the to the to the Jewish Community then I don't know what form of Judaism I do know if he's reform Reconstructionist uh conservative or Orthodox or whatever else there may be but it will be rare to me not to go to abah and not hear the rabbi mentioning the commitment to the Jewish people and to Israel if in fact that that Rabbi is unless the rabbi is anti-israel right yes I I I think there are a number of things that must be made clear and the the level of misstatements in this are also quite clear uh uh you just repeated as appeared in the transcript the statement that the uh the bar mitz for boy uh picks out his selection uh for the morning uh but it's rather common knowledge and Jewish practice of uh uh centuries uh that there is a set cycle of the reading of the Torah and the half Torah and uh B Mitzvah children under no circumstances uh are in a position to pick and choose their Torah portions uh their portions are part of the set calendar uh prescription of which portions of the Torah progressively are to be read on a given Shabbat Saturday morning uh so that uh even on this factual level there there's a disturbing lack of accuracy in presentation European Jews don't run Judaism you don't make Judaism in the among the palas among the the um the the the Jews from kashim Jews we pick you see Judaism run by you don't set the stand for Judaism so now we're in the process of of uh a double standard of of selection you have indicated in your transcript that this is what occurs in American synagogue by indicating uh that Jewish children make this statement of loyalty to Israel yet when I uh clarify your misstatement about how Torah readings are selected you tell me well there are other practices aside from the practice here which may indeed be true one example being the trienal cycle of the reading of the Torah but then you can't take the American example and then selectively learn from it uh something that you choose from another cont the child the Jewish child doesn't read the entire sermon of the are the period he does select a section within that period That's what I said he the child doesn't read the entire book or the entire thing that is going to be said on that particular Shabbat the child has a section within it he reads and there are indeed many synagogues especially in the Orthodox community in which the entire section is indeed the entire par then you admitting that there is between the Jewish synagogue right here in America within the prescripted calendar structure of readings I all I said is that the child is allowed to pick out you're saying in the Orthodox in certain Orthodox not all the child must read the entire thing I'm saying that the child is allowed to pick out a section what is wrong with that according to your transcript and I won't take the time to find the exact words unless it's required you make a statement that the child May pick out sections and you use the term Isaiah or from whatever depending on the period of time in which we are depending if Isaiah is indeed part of the Tex who said no I mean you just what in other words I said exactly what you're saying that the child is allowed to pick out that section let's say that we reading the book of Isaiah now we reading the book of hoseah the child is allowed to pick out out Isaiah a certain section or the child is allowed in Hosea if we are reading at that particular time because all the don't make B in the same month and at the same time one one should be clear however that that's partially accurate because part liturgically of what a child is expected to read uh or participate in if possible is the reading from the Torah itself indeed the reading from the ha Torah uh is a significantly later development precisely because if a child is a bar mitzvah is a son of The Commandments then one of his first public possible acts is being called up to the public reading of the Torah and it's by this act that uh uh his reaching adulthood uh is publicly declared if I may however go on to to what I wait let's settle this before we move on and then there were some other points I think try to get into all of that your response Dr uh the point is everyone I stated is adulthood the question is not when does he do this if he's a man or a child because assume I already stated the tah would be similar in essence to the conf uh to the um uh uh confirmation of the Christians when the child comes of a certain age and take up his manhood he's in order to be able to sit in the minion to sit in the official congregation as a young man he has to come and go for the B before he could sit in the minion you know now he doesn't deny that all I'm saying and which he can't refute he and he's saying about later changes I don't care what the changes of it's later or earlier the fact is that they do it very curious kind of uh contextual oversimplification here on the one hand uh Dr Ben uh correctly points out certain instances of uh Egyptian historical input in what we today call uh the uh religion of the Hebrews and later Judaism uh and no one can deny the role of cultural and historical context on the other hand uh given it would seem your political need to view all through the African perspective you completely uh ignore uh the experience of the code of hamurabi of the Mesopotamian sources of law which appear significantly modified in later Torah development uh what I'm suggesting is that on the one hand it is a strange scholarly position to argue that historical context must be accounted for in the development of Judaism which I would accept and then argue however that only that political context which is useful to your present political view uh uh is to be uh noted and is acceptable as I read the transcript as excuse me excuse me excuse me as as I read the transcript here uh there is a a comment here that uh that says and permit me to paraphrase Loosely that Judaism and all of Judaism and the Jewish people come from Egypt therefore they are African uh and therefore there is a statement later on that uh many blacks do not understand that they are indeed Jews now that raises now that that raises to us a very curious question why the constant need to inject a racial quota into a diverse historical context which we would acknowledge but yet on the other hand as we sit here having watched uh operation Moses and the in gathering of Ethiopian Jews into Israel why then the need to Define by race as what is essentially authentic in Judaism strikes us as a contradiction that at least can possibly be interpreted in terms of current political context certainly not by history right I'm glad that you brought that last point so I work from the from the last forward or backwards isn't it strange that just yesterday that the Jews in America found out that they are black Jews isn't it strange also that you don't consider Jews because when we go to Israel You're Still demanding that we must quote unquote reconvert who said we converted in the first place who said what right have European Jews who don't belong there either have a right to tell us and to carry us through a shameful I'm sorry European Jews any more than we do because the Russian Jews come there many of them not circumcised many of them never have AIS and we have to nobody asked them to reconvert we had to go there and a fast call re uh re um uh um circumcision and the uh um you know I wanted to use the Hebrew word but at the moment and we supposed to go through all that next thing Rabbi how come my uncle tamarat emuel came here in 1935 to raise money when Italy invaded itopia we were 5 million when we left we were 5 50,000 the Jewish community in America refused deny that we existed up to now in Israel you have uh uh two grand rabbi at least the S grand rabbi and the ashkanazi grand rabbi the European Grand that refused to recognize that we even Jews only the sa started with Oba YF when he was the chief Rabbi now let's come go back so that it's a pass about Israel telling us to come there for whatever the reason in that in that Israel to this day from 47 have in the clet a petition for the acceptance of Jews from Ethiopia the right to return to this day it has not been approved it has still been tabled every uh every year now so that you you you you try to show the liberality of white American Jews when it doesn't exist it doesn't exist at all because if you're saying that you're bringing us back then we should go back as Jews not as something that you going to make us over there who give you the authority to say who is a Jew and who isn't isn't a Jew you talk about the the my my desire for the political uh aristocracy my political sense well it was obvious that no one questions the European Jews I might to believe that European Jews don't have a white politics here when blacks move into the white into the a Jewish neighborhood white Jewish neighborhood doesn't the white Jew move like the white Christian I mean doesn't the white Jew have white flight to the to the sub now so as a Jew are you saying that I should behave as a Jew period in the United States that mean white Jew in the United States uh and run from the blacks and when I come here my Acceptance in Judaism isn't the same as when you come when you come if you came you came as a white Jew and the white Jews and you deal with whites now I'm a black Jew isolated from Judaism by virtue of that because of my blackness when I go into a synagogue most synagogue I going to the first thing they asked tell me and I Jew when you become Jew did your parents convert when you don't ask a white person walk into the synagogue and say that go back about the Jews learning Hanabi code when you talk about Hanabi code you're talking about 2,000 BC just the other day historically speaking the negative the concept of one God didn't come from Moses m rabi it a can preach one God before Moses was born um the the the the Aon and about the being African if you born in America you are an American Jew would you say now where was Aaron born where was uh uh Moses born and uh Sarah Aon sister and all of them um Miriam where were all of this supposed to be happening before the Jews come in contact again as a group not Moses not Abraham and and his little uh family from Abram uh and excluding Joseph from then on for according to T for approximately 400 years everything the Jews learn was in Egypt everything because it from the time of Joseph Exodus said uh Genesis ends and Moses died and there came a time when Moses uh um Joseph died because of this bad pH that came who knew knew not Joseph from then on we had to hear about the plight of the Jewish people and so forth but before that from the time of potifa all the way down to the Exodus isn't it everything that you learned was in there it was no Hanabi code and I says the basic Foundation of Judaism one God and all that came out of Africa Egypt is still there not in the Middle East time time time for another break we will continue with our discussion on discussion right after this press on let please um a number of points uh again we're into this historical selectivity and at the risk of sounding as if I'm pushing Mesopotamia uh today uh the reality is of course that uh both the archaeological and the literary evidence of uh uh such areas as EA and others clearly uh illustrate that a protom monotheism existed in the Mesopotamian area uh centuries and centuries before uh the the Hebrews uh some Scholars have even attempted to identify one of the Mesopotamian names of this uh God as aloah and in that way try to learn from it the Hebrew term Elohim and I merely identify this as one scholarly view again I I wouldn't want to deny for a moment that Egypt is part of the cultural mix and therefore Africa as as uh you would want to make the political point but to se selectively uh ignore all other historical factors to then be able to make a political Point uh uh is is not to be dismissed as a cry of anti-Semitism when it's raised uh but is to be called for inaccuracy in the historical record uh and one has an absolute right to do that when that inaccuracy then feeds it to contemporary politics but if I would like but but if I could respond to the Ethiopian issue no wait I'm going to answer you that point first then you could go to the Ethiopian issue because that's a big issue too mhm uh you try to uh thr over that anti-Semitism slipping right there even when a Jew disagree with a Jew it becomes anti-semitic by the way I I hope that I I hope that you uh I hope that you would agree that the common statement in America among Jews is that if your mother is Jewish then you're Jewish would you agree to that according to Jewish law and if and make it better if your father is Jewish and your mother Jewish then your me one's father has nothing I say I added that for extra measure right but that has no no didn't say it does don't don't be picking I mean we dealing with the issue I said well look my mother is and so that make me that me yes okay fine so then to call me anti-semitic as a Jew practicing went through all the rituals like the lady who probably did on yourself then it would mean that I strongly disagree with the teachings that what you just stated for example then I said to you using the torat itself under statement of the torat that uh that Abraham came from the city of UR in the nation of Chala which was at the time since we're using by history ruled by Africans the a joint Army that went all the way to India now you said Scholars there's only one scholar that made that remark that I know of and that's the one from the stern Institute over there in Lexington Avenue uh now secondly there may be continuation of those Scholars coming out of European context what you fail to understand Rabbi is that European Jews are Europeans and think as Europeans and act as Europeans African Jews on the other hand are being asked not to act as Africans and African Jewish scholar African scholarship and that's you telling me with the scholars now let me go I all right are you finished addressing his last part you got more all right last part of his point the period of time in which we're speaking and unfortunately T doesn't give dates but the period of time in which we're talking about abah AB Abraham isn't born until around 1775 BCE before the Christian era that would put him around the 13th century a 13th Dynasty Egyptian 13th Dynasty Ethiopian the dynasty of the Nile Valley as a whole because it's not only Egypt Egypt is a Zenith of a culture that goes way back because the ancient Egyptian themselves says we came from the beginning of the Nile where God happy dwell all of those things for instance look at Rabbi the myth that the Jews built the pyramids you know that's a myth yet it's taught prob you say it yourself C gets up there and he goes and stand up on the P be gets up there and you know pretty well that the pyramid was built before the birth of the first Jew Abraham now if I said that I'll be anti-semitic all right in the interest of Finn is Dr Ben let's let's hear what the rabbi Sela has to say uh what's disturbing is simply the the level of misunder understanding of what we're saying is that the scholarly view that I identified and which uh you then identified as a Stern College View uh Stern college is part of Yeshiva University an orthodox Institution my background is in the reform movement I assure you that uh much of what I've suggested in terms of biblical scholarship would be totally rejected and considered unacceptable by the Orthodox Community uh as uh representing non- rinic analysis of Torah therefore to dismiss my remarks as being represented by Stern College raises the question of uh of what kind of comprehension we have here of of scholarship and and indeed uh the uh the pluralism within the Jewish community and that leads me to the point I want to make good point uh in the in the uh transcripts and in your remarks now there's a tendency to speak of all Jews in the broadest context so that you began with the Ethiopian issue by speaking about Israelis then switch to White American Jews and as I listen to you um I Heard a constant tendency to put everything in the category of white European versus uh black spartic Oriental and again I ask myself it is and again I ask myself the question the state of Israel which has a population today which is 60% spodic non-european who at the bottom of the social ladder EXC please I listen to you uh with a a population which is 60% non-european uh a population coming from the Middle East and the Oriental countries uh it is certainly a political charge which we hear constantly and Is Us constantly that Israel is a a white European colonialist Bastion in the middle of uh uh an Arab third world part of the world but the reality is that Israel today increasingly takes on the Lee quality of the area in which it's in precisely because of the population side point but but but let me and don't want me to let me answer that and then sir can I answer him no let me inter let me interject let me interject let me give you one minute to press your point forward and then Dr Ben can I must say that we the time is evaporating and that is my concern so then it's it's necessary to proceed one minute well I shall try in one minute um again this attempt to say that only black Jews experience difficulty in Israel there are a number of U frankly inaccuracies in this when Soviet Jews began to come to Israel there was precisely the same kind of questioning raised by the rinet since rinic establishment and authorities were uh in disarray in the Soviet Union were indeed these people who were coming Jews under the Orthodox law it caused political problems ultimately it was worked out as the issue with the Ethiopians is a problem will be worked out to characterize this on a racial basis is totally Unworthy of what is indeed going on today in Israel Dr he speaks of the multiracial characteristic of Israel but he didn't say that the multiracial characteristic isn't isn't visable in the control in Israel Israel is controlled by a European European American and British factor of white Judaism he doesn't want me to deal with this reality I've been the time seen it myself I would give you two quick answers to that that historically yes because of the nature of the earlier immigration at this point in time given the past election results in which leud which was heavily representative of the Safar community and labor which has its base in the European Community ended up in essential parity the reality is that power is increasingly shifting from Total European control to indeed what is considered a parity between the two communities well it would it would seem to be a simple question Rabbi s do Jews who are European or white control Israel or do Jews who are African control Israel no it's not that simple because we're dealing with no not at all because we're dealing with a question of process and the question of process simply indicates that the initial migration of population out of which the state of Israel was established was European the governmental structures were created by these people immediately after the creation of the state over half a million spodic Jews from the Middle East from North Africa were brought into the state while it was involved in a fight for independence these people took the obvious number of years to be able to function uh effectively on all levels of government and all levels of Israeli Society time is a necessary factor in life but as of this point today one can say without any hesitation that the non European Saar the community wields tremendous power in the state of Israel today the dominant power and is on who is a dominant power again I would indicate that by the last election in which both leud and labor ended up in what is essentially a dead heat one can learn from this that there is no one group in power anymore Dr Ben uh the rabbi is is a rabbi saying to me that if I went to Israel or you went to Israel that most of the people in government the ambassadors traveling all over and not European European American and British Jews am might to believe that that's what he's saying that there's an equal division of power I I can't think that the RAB would stay there and say this and give a this kind of a evasive answer to the question the European and European American and uh British Jews still dominate the politics of Israel still do dominate the economy of Israel and is he saying to me that these people are now welcome my point to him is regardless of what may have said did they demand that uh uh uh uh that um the the Jews from uh Russia go through uh uh a new halaka do they uh reconversion do they demand a Brisk we know a Brisk circumcision such were the demands such were demands was it Carri through and just as and the parallel is a very important one just just as politically the intent of the Orthodox let me finish please just as politically the intent of the Orthodox Rabbi establishment could not be considered acceptable and these demands were ultimately dropped with Soviet shes so one finds that as the Ethiopian Jewish community grows the ravenet itself has been forced to back down and I think it is a very clear statement most Israeli accept is not true because up to now you wait a minute now I got a cut for for a commercial break I know you're you're hot both hot it's hot program hey this is the last segment you can't run over and I'm going to chop you if you do we can't resolve your philosophical your political your historical your ideological differences clearly this hour but maybe we can address ourselves to tone and intent obviously the letter that was written by the ADL uh objects to the tone and suggests that there may be some premeditated Sinister injurious intent to Dr Ben's remark for political reasons and perhaps we can you can clarify that and perhaps Dr Ben can rebut and answer and maybe perhaps we can clarify and heal this Rift as we read the transcript and as as we discuss today we see much in your remarks that is reflected in third world political statements uh in the UN in other Forum uh the fact that you are indeed Jewish in no way changes the content of these remarks and the political context in which we see them from our point of view as Ethiopians were starving and are starving Israel was the only country that offered the kind of Aid to physically bring black Ethiopians out and indeed it's the only example of a nation of caucasians to use the term that appears frequently here of bringing in whites uh bringing blacks in dignity as Citizens to begin to turn it around says to us we begin to hear the same kind of third world radical political kind of rhetoric which is directed towards the United Nations towards Israel and the United Nation ations which we hear in so many other uh forums this is what we respond to this willingness to identify Jews and Judaism with colonialism whites repression and having read some of your other material in addition to this I must say that it's a theme that strikes me as pervasive and something that we find unacceptable in a public forum all right uh number one you spoke very much about um generalized statement you just said that the Ethiopians are starving and you're bringing out isn't it a fact that you're talking about only Ethiopia has about 40 million people you're talking about 5 miles from the border with Sudan in South where the starvation situation developed isn't it also a fact that the fans the Egyptians you better Israel our people were not particularly at that spot isn't it a fact that the United same United Nations you call on found that we many of our community was raided to bring people out and you talk about about the only nation to help isn't it also a fact that there are almost every nation in the world in Ethiopia giving assistance to people who are hungry on the Northern borders of Ethiopia are you suggesting that it would have been better for Israel let me go ahead in no sense save black lives now you talk about this no if Israel had bring them I was saving us for the reason that you indicated or tried to indicate yes how is it that all all of a sudden that we are saved but we wind up in the Army we we're ding from salvation we wind up in people house cleaning and you know fasha women fasia never let their women this is onean thing against our principle to work as domestic in anybody's house we're doing that now why didn't you mention the the four fashes last uh two three weeks ago that committed suicide over this in Israel why didn't you mention the protest in Israel why didn't you mention the dialogue between Israel and Ethiopia that the F want to go back to Ethiopia and there's a dialogue about theing and the Egan government say you brought you took them bring them back so saving of lives by the state of Israel of Jews is another example of racism wait according if you could say it that way okay but if you get cheap labor you don't have to worry about the LI that is the purpose at which the state of Israel brought community that is Unworthy of a public statement okay it is but when we were dying from musolini extermination it is typical of the behavior of european- Americans you you don't want me to say that Rob you probably live in a racist Society yourself I couldn't probably walk any night you want you don't want Israel not initiated the operation Moses I suspect you would have been among the first who would have said you see how racist state of Israel for not responding to the plight of Jews even though they're black the B now you say that even though black a racist Coury of listening I listen to you it's absolutely out think that I feel like you're outrageous now my point is this that a a a a nation that say we don't exist you know with the with the contri of Israel the thousands upon thousands of Israel leaving Israel constantly you need to replenish that that that Community you have an Arab situation and don't deal with third world because I'm not a member of the third world I'm M of the first world you know Bo he was long before Adam and Eve and it's found in Africa Lucy is found in Ethiopia and it's 3.2 million years you see you want me to go along with a dialogue that is suit you as a European Jew but doesn't suit me as an African Jew and you assume that my African Jewish to supered my africanist no way rather because you want it both ways you want to be a European Jew benefiting from being a European better from being a Jew and that I set set by and listen to it and then call it anti-semitic you may have difficulty but the record will show that I sit here as an American Jew that's right that will be my definition you choose to Define me in whatever racial or political terms you have the need is your business but I reject totally I got to cut you I thank you both for expressing your opinion so uh until the Lions have their own historians the tales of the hunt will always glorify the Hunter