you [Music] light while light having his knowledge knowledge is love love is freedom freedom is energy energy so without any doubt without light we can't have any images [Music] a cinematographer is a visual psychiatrist moving the audience through a movie from here to there to there to here making him think the way you want to think painting pictures in the dark Oh [Music] you have to light you have to compose and you have to create movement and those are the three elements of cinematography [Music] you have to get style the hard way you earn it by growing it internally and letting it bubble out from inside some of it comes from experience some of it comes from inspiration and some of it just happens film is like a sumo wrestler it's you know sometimes you get thrown out of the ring by it and sometimes you win I think it's really important to really delve deep into it and really become part of your subconscious and your psyche to really develop an idea for how you visually want to represent a story we have the ability to work in all genres and each film should have its own style [Music] I think was the fascination initially with the technology and then how mastering that technology in the service of art made cinematography such a unique thing that just kept me in it to this day [Music] my name is Ramirez Harrison Russell so Brooke Howard Anderson I'm Howard Anderson the third Peter Anderson my name is Michael ball house DM BB I'm Bill Bennett Gabrielle berry stain and a machinima tog refer a Mexican British educated and American improved Larry bridges Jonathan Brown I'm Steve Bureau - cinematographer bill Butler Bobby burn Russell carpenter James chrysanthus your callisters yeah Cooperman Erickson Corps I'm Richard crudo I'm Dean candy Oliver catice I'm Allen Davila and I'm a cinematographer Roger Deakins Peter Deming Caleb Deschanel I'm Ron Dexter bill bill George P or ODB Ernest Dickerson I'm Richard Edlund John Fowler I'm dawn Fauntleroy and Steve fair burg William a Fraker my name is Michael Steven gold bland my name's Jack green Adam greenberg Ravi Greenberg cinematographer my name is Hannah Hoffman Ernie Holzmann my name is Gil Hubbs I'm Judy a rola mark Kerwin levy Isaacs Johnny Jensen I'm Victor J Canberra Frances Kenny Richard Klein Fred Cana camp my babies lászló kovács last local watch I'm Ellen caress ASC yamato-class coos hi I'm amber Lazlo I am Dunedin wah Matt you know Peter levy Matthew the boutique I'm Steven Leight Hill karvall son-in-law Bruce Lowen Julio makan Isadora Mankowski ASC Chris Manley Steven Mason I'm Clark Mathis dawn with quake Rob mcLaughlin check Minsky Donald M Morgan Cramer Morgenthau David Mullen Fred Murphy my name is Huell Naruto I'm Michal Negrin my name is Saul Negron Darrin Okada I'm witty omens I'm Daniel Pearl fern Pearlstein wally pfister bill Pope Stephen poster Bob primes Toni returned I'm a cinematographer my name is Owen Roseman Pete Romano I'm Paul Ryan from Nancy Shriver my name is John Schwartzman my name is John Steele Dean Semler hi I'm Michael Sarrazin from New Zealand Steven Shaw Newton Thomas Segal and on my best days I'm a cinematographer Bradley 6 Dantas Funaki I'm hooli Steiger my name is Tom Stern my name is Vittorio Storaro I'm a cinematographer I'm not a director of photography Rodney Taylor I'm John tow and less cinematographer case fellows I'm Amy Vincent my name is Haskell Wechsler Gordon Willis ralph Woolsey Robert yeoman ambien mows England messing them about you affair invariably two questions come up and the first question somebody will ask how did you reading me started the film business when I was a kid I was I was mad about movies but it was a long time is my I suppose my career my life just sort of gradually sort of gradually grew into my dreams really you know I became a cinematographer because at 14 after being interested in photography for about four years I met a cinematographer in the day I met him I decided that's what I wanted to do for the rest of my life I got interested when I first saw a demonstration of color television and I had gone to movies and had black-and-white television but when I saw color I said I have to find out how they do this even though in those days you really had no hope of ever becoming anyone in the movie business unless you're somehow connected to somebody in the business well my father was a cinematographer I was born into it my dad was an animation count I was in a family business my father my uncle and my grandfather and all of the relatives that I can remember on my father's side were barbers my father was a makeup artist at Warner Brothers Brooklyn during the Depression so I was always around hanging around hanging around and I decided I want to be an actor early on when I was a kid lucky for me I changed my mind I became a cinematographer because of the influence of my grandmother and she was a schoolteacher must find Mexico when I was in Mexico being been from a family of actors and filmmakers my aunt who along with my mother we're both extras and my aunt said Billy you're gonna go to school and you're gonna become a cinematographer and I said what do you mean and she said they're the most respected people on the set they're all wear ties and it's a great profession my dad always contended it was a great business to fall back on if you had another opportunity little did I know I spent seven years cutting hair waiting for an opportunity my father was head of the Portrait Gallery at Warner's my mother had been an art dealer my father was a painter and sculptor so if I went to become a lawyer or a doctor I think I would have been disowned I could never draw or paint or do anything like that I picked this camera up and I could paint mother says wreck and Menace in Minnesota I was born and raised in Chicago I was born in Hungary Sydney Australia born and raised in Los Angeles I grew up in Mexico I grew up in Cleveland Ohio I'm originally from Poland this was o Claire Wisconsin you know I come from an area of Italy where which is very far away from any movie industry we go back actually to Jerusalem when I started I built a tent and I start pick up cartoons splicing together I love film because all I've ever done really it's all I've ever done from right from when I left school at 15 I joined I joined path a news I started in television when I was 16 as a props boy I was a messenger boy running up and down Water Street with cans of film I was lucky that my father as a beautiful dream he was a projectionist in a very big company in Italy in the 15 it looks film looks fitting and it was dreaming probably to be part of the image they were screen so it put his dream on me when I was a kid I liked still photography loved it I thought for a while I wanted to be a photographer for Life magazine like Jean Smith who was one am I here my childhood heroes and the year I was a senior in high school life folded and I ended up starting go to university because of not knowing any better I'm not daring to apply to film school and then when I went to college I kind of was trying to decide should I go into filmmaking which see my jumping off a cliff if you were in Detroit in college I was a lighting designer I was the AV guy was a town projectionist I was also the school projections every school - it was in school studying mathematics and physics I studied engineering in college I'm educated as the mechanical engineer in Copenhagen Denmark I was studying English literature at Hofstra University and I needed six credits to graduate and I took a film course well my first love really was journalism I began studying architecture in addition to your film studies I was an architecture student and I was faced with a difficult model I which I couldn't build so I decided to make an animated film but I remembered when I was cutting it together between two very old VCRs and I thirty minutes had passed and I was getting hungry and I looked up in actually six hours had passed and I realized hmm and I never really lost track of time doing calculus I went to Johns Hopkins as an undergraduate to become a physician first I was a movie buff like watching Favreau teams or the cinematic machines I mean projected not tapes at the time and of course my studies I was studying many medicine at the time medical studies but of course I was such a failure so I had to do something else and one day once a movie Akira Kurosawa's Ron and I was pretty blown away I thought if that's something you can do I want to do it and seemed like he film was closer to dreams than the rest of the art work I was doing the next big influence would probably be days of heaven this happened when I was in college the end of high school I was happen to be was in a library and I was walking through the stacks and a book of a red cover caught my eye and it was called the work of the motion picture Cameron by Freddy Young BSC and I said oh what's that what's the motion picture camera man in film school I met a young gentleman by the name of Spike Lee and I shot all of his student projects in the second and third years I didn't go to film school I worked on a lot of a lot of student films I came out of film school and then didn't work for a lot of years I was painting the first year out of art school I wanted to be a painter at one time as much as I loved painting I couldn't I couldn't get them to move they were like and I took trying to get them to move and the only way I could do that was shooting little films I had a dream I dreamt of Gandhi and a spinning wheel and the life magazine pictures that market pork whited shot and in the dream they animated not only did the spinning wheel move but the camera moves around it and I took that as a sign that maybe it was time I add the dimension of motion to to my still photography as a designer or as an illustrator I would be dealing with single image and they became increasingly frustrating just to be looking at a single image for a long time and and and being just began to think of sequence of images to tell tell stories I was the secretary in the KQED and I watched the people come out of the the film Department every day carrying silver cases and wearing Levi's and I didn't want to wear nylons anymore I said truly and I started working with the film paper film department on the weekends started actually as a stagehand I started off as a documentary still photographer I started as an underwater camera in the US Navy and I was working as a waiter I started off as an animator when I graduated college I arrived here in Los Angeles and sought work and initially couldn't get the time of day from anybody when I moved to New York and answered an ad in The Village Voice which got me onto a real movie had a friend that was working on a low-budget horror film in South Carolina and I went down there and worked as a PA started right from the bottom I was a PA I was a assistant to the lowest assistant I did everything from sweeping the floor to projecting the film when I started in the business the only equipment diverse trusted grid was a broom when I was 26 years old I finished film school in Hungary I went to film school in Hungary and the revolution came in 1956 against Russians with my friend boomer segment we covered all the cinematographers in the Revolution we were shooting for this documentary footage we shot about 30,000 feet of film and we had the meeting secretly think that that some people will have to volunteer to go to the West and take the footage out we smuggled it out and we couldn't obviously we couldn't go back and I volunteered actually it was I had the reason to go as long as we figured we are here in the West this was still in Germany I'm in Austria Vienna - well let's go to Hollywood of course that was easy to say but it but in reality actually if you don't know the language you don't know anybody and you you go and visit all the Hungarians who are in in the business in those days you know like your Pasternak Josh I got bored and you can name all of them and and then we thought that maybe that can help us to get into the film business but then work that way actually you know they said that first you have to show what you can do and then we can help you and I didn't realize it once be short but we can do we didn't need that help anymore like I couldn't get best secretaries at one point I said that resumes hand printed on sandpaper just so they would remember it you know I sent the resumes written on short cardboard so they couldn't crumple it up and toss it in the wastebasket my family won't know well what are you gonna do with your life now and they had some some business ideas some things that I should do to make something of myself my father always would say to me when I was first starting out well why don't you join CBS oh why don't you get a real job as you know a cameraman on a news station became a news cameraman for the 16 mill bill and Hal black we used to take great pride in shooting 3d do stories on 100 feet of film River paradox channel with save money and I managed to get into the government station which is the Australian Broadcasting Commission and there was quite a good little group of features type cameraman there from the early days a lot of them were X World War two combat cameraman so you had this amazing crossover between fairly sophisticated features cameraman and rough-and-tumble alcoholic combat cameraman so it was a good learning process you didn't know who you'd be going out with to a system but you did either end up you know doing a lovely job of something or totally drunk I had a couple guys live next door to me and they asked me if I wanted a job and I got a job at a television station no pushing dollies and the boom and all of that stuff and it seemed like the coolest guys on the set were around the camera I started in 1943 and I worked eight years as an assistant cameraman and showed up first day of work with a paper bag and a tape measure I was never an assistant I was never an operator actually even loaded mags and slept slates for a long time clean tripods and cleaned up the equipment in the cases and and drove the gear from place to place anything good that ever happened to me happening because of someone else giving me an opportunity the thing about the businesses generosity of people so I had a wonderful learning experiences and working relationships with oh and royzman taught me to see in a tenth of a stop you know I always say when I'm teaching students anything is cinematography is an art form but at the same time it's a craft and it's definitely a combination of the two one of my mentors at Dartmouth was Andy Laszlo he was invited to talk about half an hour to our to our class on cinematography and two days later he was still talking so Andy was a great mentor and a great inspiration and probably one of the reasons why I really wanted to get into the business you have to be totally absolutely committed to it you have to it has to become religion you have to eat it sleep eat talk it and go after every opportunity is to get yourself established and in the process I ran into this wonderful man who eventually became my mentor Ron Dexter and I would say Ron Dexter was an inspiration to so many of us I taught all along once I knew something I'd share whatever I knew he would have occasional symposiums where he would talk about what he was doing and show the experiments that he was making and then he'd have us all bring in pieces of film what we were shooting and have group discussions I was lucky that the gaffer really took an interest in my learning electricity and light my mentor in Hollywood is the cinematographer Bill Maher cygwin I had the opportunity to work with Vittorio here in Los Angeles and I would pick up mr. Ferraro at the at the hotel and sunset every morning and we were drive by drive him to work and I would ask him a question about maybe composition or a certain scene we're doing today and then I would get a 30 or 40 minute lecture I felt like a doctorate on composition or color or Yugoslavian primitive art or whatever it was that was his inspiration for that for that film so when I was young and I was mentoring it was a really unique opportunity to get to spend time with these people and really sort of understand their thought process I mean I can remember with Vittorio bringing my light meter in a sketchbook around and I used to just berate me and he'd say that's not what it's about it's you know it's from the heart it's about the emotion and I thought to myself yeah yeah that's all good and well your Vittorio Storaro I was always supposed to be told you stood out even in my beginning when I started there was nobody knew me nobody you know so myself compared to what I did before I think the you should be always yourself from when you start from when you are in the journey or when you think you reach one specific place that's part of your personality part of your way of thinking but you always do it many times yes young cinematographer telling me you can do that or maybe refuse the project or maybe do one selection in your life because you are now this kind of person I always did that I mean I remember that on the first film germinate surgery Nitza and I was doing tests for actors everywhere like more or less your crew was much more cruel we were working in a very simple way and just try to understand what the movie's supposed to look like and so now I find myself uncomfortable for what did he had to ask me to do and I was forced to do it and at the end of the day I was 28 I say to him goodbye I don't think I came back tomorrow because I love you you need me you need someone someone to just put one light just let you see whoever's in front to you not in a particular way they you want to see this person so I don't think I came back tomorrow I was might that two years before I we already have one daughter and my wife was petting a child we had the only $50 imbalance and I say no no is a very important word very important yes it's not a good word all the time you know I mean it doesn't get you more work in fact no gets you more work than yes because anything works while you're shooting it nothing works in the screening room if it's no good so what they said the day before they can't remember when they get in the screening room so if you said no to something bad and it turns out to be right in the screening room they forget about the know the day before but they never forget about the yes if it's no good and this was wonderful and I was victorious tonight oh then on my first film I believe a cinematographer should always be interpreting we should never be recording but adding their point of view their interpretation to anything and in order to interpret you have to make a commentary have to say something about it either with light and dark or color composition or textures or whatever to shoot it in a gritty grainy handle way or do you do it in a very beautifully lit way with glided tracks you have to make a decision so it's not always as obvious what style you would want to use to make the film when you do a scene you ask yourself what do you are the audience to think or feel the end of this scene they didn't at the beginning of the same so what path do we take that will evoke that emotional response by the end of the scene style yeah everybody wants a story about style you know how you get the formula well there is no formula because style comes out of you I mean people who like to hear that you did this you did that but really the reason you did it is for something that you were thinking and I actually it comes out of your life what you've been exposed to who you are what you think and that's what ends up on the screen and style basically comes out of conceiving designing creating a a visual approach to a particular story style is an individual artists own take on things it's not a coat of paint it's not a suit that you can just put on it's not a coat of paint you can just put on a building it's not surface I'd like to think that my style is based on the translation of the material and I think the most important thing is the the narrative and our job is to is to take that narrative and translate it into into imagery style of the picture and the look of the picture it starts with the written word first you read the script start at the story it's always always always about the story the script obviously it starts with the script the story the material the written word starts with the script you've got to know the script that number one you read the script and you try to figure out what this movie's gonna look like I mean if I get a script I really like to read it at least 10 times when you first read the script you have no idea the cast is what the location is what the sets are like what the Wardrobe is but you have a vision is you come up with pictures you read any pictures I try to read it for just the words and the feeling of it I end up pre-visualize in it no matter how hard I try not to you first you need the script and maybe you already have some ideas how it should look but the basic thing is that you sit down with the director and start to talk about the movie first when I read the script I never almost never have any ideas of images and trying to just to read to see if I would like to see it as a story at all and also because I probably because I'm I don't want to maybe it's wrong I don't know better maybe I don't want to come to the meeting and meet the director and say oh I see very strong colors and the director say well I see it black and white so I guess for this reason I just restrain myself to have any idea in the beginning and not only the first meeting but also in the first weeks where I see my job I like trying to be more like a sponge and to try to get any information I can get I very often don't really know I have my ideas and then you know I let it I listen a lot and I just walk through it and pretend I know I don't have a clue and because it sort of comes later I really do believe every film that I've done has sort of found its own style somehow basically you haven't you have a great idea or you have an idea what you want this picture your picture to look like I call yours because you're working on it and you talk with your director and it's usually you and the director who who who find a bond who form a marriage and that's what it's all about and when you go to work with a director I think you have to find out what is inside his or her head I'd like to break down the screenplay with the director scene foreseeing act by act discuss things back and forth until we know it's sort of the the right way to do it and we'll bash it back and forth and and we'll keep landing on the same sort of thing and I think that the photography falls into place and that if we're talking about you know how to shoot something or what the mood is or how important something is I don't think the director and I discussed anything about the style of the film the style kind of grew out of itself as we work together they are cinematographers who are cinematographer painters cinematographer engineers cinematographer editors I believe that I'm a bit of a cinematographer writer in as much as I try to penetrate a story really well and I try to find a way in which my lighting on my camera work becomes a character within the story that's why it's called - Imam Musa because he's nourish itself from the other Nine Muses from literature from painting from dancing from philosophy from sculpture from architecture only when you are cinema is really today that in an art form there were combined all the different art form in this I think is one of the things how a style involves for a picture is that you look at films together you look at still photographs you look at paintings in a sense painters and cinematographers it's they're cut from the same genetic strain I mean it's their special every cinematographer would love to shoot you know from sunrise for about two hours and then stop when the lights no good in the middle of the day and then at the end of the day shoot at the end of the day that's like painters painters used to go out really early in the morning and capture all their effects and I mean people said well why you know why did constable look look better than Turner and the answer always was constable got up earlier in the morning when I think of painters that I would like to make honorary members of the ASC I would in a second write a letter to the Membership Committee for Monet because Monet taught me a great deal about color latitude and about atmosphere I'm always resourcing visuals sometimes music but usually visuals from all the other arts and bringing them together what I call my brain book which which is well before we start shooting sometimes becomes one or two volumes of photographs of drawings of diagrams of thoughts that I have about the look of a picture the idea being that that usually by the fourth and sometimes by the sixth week of a production everybody's brain dead everybody's exhausted and so having done that work in pre-production in a coherent state I have a bottom line of quality that a safety net that I can descend who by looking into that book and I'll always have that and then everything else that I bring is is icing on the cake what I bring to the style of a particular movie is that initial intuitive impulse of how a movie should feel and the tone style though I think is so much besides the materials so much determined by the cinematographers life experiences and the things that personally move the artist the cinematographer when you have an idea it's usually an idea of you've seen it you've heard it or you experienced it when I should movie even prep later in prep close to shooting I wake up at night two o'clock three o clock at night with thoughts with good ideas the best ideas coming to thirty of nights ideally you bring your life experience to the process of making a movie at its best so you connect to it in a way that you want your audience to it has to do with the art you see the photographs the paintings and so on the images on the street sometimes delight the way it falls in certain places on buildings and so on everything you've learned influences what you do Raul Butare wonderful French Cameron talked about working with guitar and he said you don't know who this gentleman that walked through the door what is in his mind but the left side of the frame is striving for came from John Renoir silent film of the 20s and the right side is a poster he saw in the Metro that morning and I mean literally you find out what what is is creating the images in the directors head and how you translate those onto film but I think when you you're kind of looking for new ways to do things because you just don't want to be telling each story the same way that you've told the last so improvisation and imagination is really important I really like to research things have a clear idea what I'm doing but then I also like to respond to what happens you know at the moment I mean an actor can come in and their performance can so overpower something that you suddenly realize that what you imagined was an actor in you know lost in a setting is suddenly a big close-up because the performance is so extraordinary I think you could always arrive on a set or on a scene and sort of feel how it should be done and I think the doctor I like in even a shooting featuresnow if it looks good the way it is and it's going to photograph good the way it is don't change it don't start changing it there's just so many factors along the way that affect you and you you know I mean it's to some extent it's it's like you know learning everything you can and being well rehearsed but then when it really comes down to it it's like jazz in the sense that you respond to the things and you haven't flow with everything as it as it evolves on the set on a day as a musician will find a false in them that they can't really explain when they play or when they sing so so you can as a photographer and so you can as a cinematographer there is a there's an instinct I think that the visualization for me always came at the production meetings and the head banging that I would do with the director and the production designer your communication with your production designer is so important because the production designer and the cinematographer are there working with the director to find that look to find the style of a film the production designer is also a very key person for me I spent a lot of time in the art department talking about color practical lighting if they could build that into the set I've generally been on the film earlier than I would get there they might have done all the surveys through foreign countries or they've already started to design sometimes in fact most times they've started to build sets so they're way ahead of you and and I've had the long talks with the director as to to how the director wants that scene in that particular location to play and our North Fork we wanted an almost black and white feeling and one of the keys was to get nothing in color in the frame so our department in that film actually put great paint in the ketchup bottles and our diner scenes we covered all the surfaces of the counters with great contact paper we even sewed a black and white American flag that was blowing in the wind and I actually got a call back from the lab asking me how I managed to get the color out of the American flag when I told them it was a black and white American flag against the blue sky so a lot of cannot can be done in camera in front of the camera by coordinating things with art department the key meeting was the first meeting we had with the production designer I had read the script I met Ed Wayne and the designer we said in a room we just looked at photo books and I brought similar photo books then the production designer had brought in already and all the walls were pasted with his pictures and was very magazine and and I had my Ovitz and things like that and it was all about color and and how we see the South because the movie takes place in my south and from that my concept evolved I mean it was a great starting point and it was always something I took a couple of pictures out of the books and always stuck them on my wall in the hotel that was my key thing that's the first thing you're afraid of as a cinematographer you can shoot good pictures individually but you know what makes you think that as a whole it's gonna fall together into this this thing that you meant to be a movie you spend you come the look and then you spend three months doing that one look and then a year later you see how it worked when it's all cut together whereas in a commercial music video you he tries something for a day you see it two days later you know okay okay that was good let's try this and so you can you can grow really quickly I think commercials have always sort of been the area that can allow us to sort of experiment in commercials it's all about the cinematography that and the story is what grabs the people in the first five seconds you've got 30 seconds to tell a story I learned a lot about shooting via commercials because there was so much technique in commercials and so much gear and so much stuff that you could draw on to learn things that I learned a lot it was a great place to begin a career in cinematography because we were studying for myself I studied and learned quite a bit of different technique and was always trying to look for the new thing so it gave me a broad quiver of things to experiment with the things I've stumbled onto in terms of a look has come out of ignorance and I mean naivete and making like horrible mistakes and then going actually it looks kind of cool it's kind of interesting and then if you're smart or at least if you're paying attention you let great accidents happen I love what Connie hole used to call happy accidents you know you're in a set and suddenly the light starts flashing through a window and even even if you don't use that natural light you suddenly think well that's it I didn't think of that so you maybe cut that light off and put a lamp to do exactly the same thing so you can have consistency all cinematographers take credit for wonderful happy accidents along the way and you know I'm certainly one of them where you know the the clouds come in and you know the light is amazing for a brief period of time or suddenly the clouds are blowing over I'm just looking at this little dapple of light on my shoulder here and reminds me of Conrad Hall who was the master of the found accident and capitalized er or if you there's such a word and who capitalizes on those discoveries always awake for them Conrad who was great on this he was great on this I said you know he sometimes he really want his films to look ugly to capture something that we don't really that we normally shy away from him in making movies you know you ugliness can have a certain beauty as well it's a strange sort of dichotomy going on there really it's symbiotic and it really works hand in hand I mean there's certain kind of film it's definitely affected by the tone of the film the light the shadows the color how how the camera moves when it moves the moment that an actor turns its head and you just pan slightly to the left to just catch that gaze and to frame it in a certain way that I think evokes a certain kind of emotion there's a spirit in each cinematographers work that's not comparable to any others you see the techniques appear to be the same you see the same approaches in lighting you see what you can do with the materials at hand but there there's always an ineffable quality in the actual film when it comes out of processing or onto the avid that is almost indescribable there is a definable style that's going through most of my movies I mean it's applied differently I mean I do a lot of the same things but it's applied differently and I mean I don't mind saying that it's it's you know and I don't the trick is to integrate your visual decisions with the movie with the story and you can have both I mean you can have a good movie with good visuals I mean that's the best movie you know good content good visual structure you know I think it's very important that the style of the film be as transparent as possible now I'm saying that having done movies like the rocker we're getting in Ferrara which are almost all style but that's what really those movies were about because in those cases if you ever stopped long enough to figure out that an oil driller was on an asteroid and he was gonna blow it up with a nuclear bomb you probably would have left the theater so the idea was to keep the to keep it visual into to make it exciting for an audience and that and that was the goal of a picture like that and we knew it going in I'm not demeaning the work it was just of we were we were meeting a different set of needs for a picture like that then then I was on a picture like Seabiscuit where it was really very emotional and very moving and I didn't want my work to get in the way of the story the matrix was influenced almost entirely by the light yes believe it or not as interpreted by filmmakers in in the 60s so after they discovered this great emotion like blue in Paris in the conformist I felt that I need to discover him a deeper the possibility of this vibration do discolor so many other movie that and after the confirm is sever one I tried to use this color to investigating the possibility of this color till they get in a Last Tango in Paris and I remember that was going to see Bernardo every weekend in Paris and I was so astonished about the chance the Paris a city in winter of all the lights on was alike a city light in their Tavitian light when he's on during the daytime as a kind of conflict between the artificial energy international energy it was give me the feeling totally different almost opposite complimentary of the blue of the rest of the conformist in orange like the warm feeling the kind of womb of the mother or the city of Paris there was been bracing ourselves when I was thinking about the Godfather both one and here at the time I it was about 20 minutes before we started the movie that I finally decided what it should look like and the feeling of how a film should look really comes out of you and I can't tell you why I decided that I said was it should be kind of dirty and streaked and should be brassy yellow and if somebody said why did you decide that I was how to say I have no idea it felt like it should be that way I almost wonder if the Godfather would look the way it does if somebody had sat on the set with a video monitor and looked at what was going to come out on the screen they would everybody would have chickened out and that's a problem I think there were people who felt that way and there are other people that felt at god almighty I don't want to hire him look what will happen so yes yeah I got for Gangs of New York I got influenced a little by Reverend I must say because Marty gave me a book about Raymond which is but the best book that came out about Rembrandt and his way of shadows and darkness and people being in the shade and people being in the bright light also the simplicity of of the lighting was influential on the way I tried to light Gangs of New York well st. Elmo's fire because that was a that was the ensemble picture you had five or six kids and there was a lot of rapid-fire dialogue and I thought it would be more interesting to always have it in the group so be shot in scope so you could fit five people across the frame everybody would be you know like a waist figure so you'd see them very well and they all the more good actors it was good dialogue and they can just spit that stuff out like crazy I think it's more interesting to see actors take their paces off of each other than have it forced by the cutting deliverance they decided that it has to have a very real look if it will actually more real than reality is that's why we decided to shoot the movie sharp but we decided to do this saturation of images I'd say the New York look probably was I think it's one of the things that I started with the French Connection which was more of a realistic quality or of a little low-key grainy dingy quality to it not documentary totally but verging on the on the edge of it there are certain definite appearances that when you shoot in New York you do get a different kind of a look all told we worked in the streets we worked at night and we just had him get those pictures and we had very little lighting with which to do it but at that time what it was was single source no feel a soft light kind of a look that came from still photography basically the buildings are very dense population densities very big and you've got high buildings so you've got a lot of shadow and contrasting light that's I think another distinction about New York is people walk in and out of very hot bright source of light and then into very deep shadows and there's one thing I've always noticed I find interesting is multiple reflections in New York because as the Sun kicks off of a variety of glass window buildings you can have this very artificial light you don't have to do much to make it look good you know you don't have to build anything visually to make New York interesting again you know you choose to shoot this you choose to shoot that you put them together and you've got a good New York when we talk about style we also talk about personal improvising with to fit the vision that we're thinking of within the equipment and the time we've got a sometime style comes out of pure necessity or desperation case in point in the 60s and 70s with the new lightweight cameras you had directors who wanted to take those cameras on the road stick them in cars put them in bathrooms and so as technology evolves and we have equipment that's light or easier to shoot with faster you're going to see experimental shooting with it of people who want to take it to the edge and see what it's capable of there is a story behind Easy Rider there's about three four five years until we got to that point you know we are very fluid in making low-budget films and we knew how to do it we knew how to do it do a movie just enough equipment putting into a station wagon and that was it we didn't need trucks we didn't need generators we couldn't even think of it we were always dreaming but you know all these great equipment we could have and but you know we made this work for us we made the stories you know of fit what we can do in the same way the equipment fit the stories also let's take it back to the cinema build the equipment that went into this truck it was a Ford Econoline truck very very small we didn't have Mitchell cameras we had blimp there flexes which were smaller we use color Tran lamps which was all quartz lights no phenols on him so it was a hard light that you couldn't cut with flags cuz it didn't have the lens in front so you bounced the lights instead so you know a style evolved from having very little equipment and by necessity basically if you can think of a quick way of doing it the cheap way that still works it saves a lot of money in time and you're not scared of doing the Black Stallion is really very much really came out of the style of really educational documentary films at both Carroll Ballard and I really came out of because we both had worked together on some educational films and you know what Carroll really does you know his directing style is to set up a scene as if it's really happening and then you photograph it as if you were making a documentary of that scene chasing the situations in your documentary allows you to to develop a style in camera as a documentary filmmaker you're hyper aware of the location where you are because that's how you have to have to work with the documentaries I did was so very kind of Verret a you know we would go you know some you know film a tribe in Africa or film a war zone and you kind of make up the movie that make up the film and what you were trying to say as it almost as a journalist exploring the subject but often documentaries are emulated by fiction films and and now you find documentaries doing recreations and then creating their own fictional sequences within a documentary so I think both schools inform each other if you worked on a lot of documentaries you already know how people walk you know how they talk you know that when they're making dinner they're not standing there looking at each other ones over here ones over here they're of speaking over their shoulder sometimes their silence and it's a great training ground for shooting narratives and seeing what is available light you know where does the light come from what makes a Japanese restaurant beautiful and a Chinese restaurant not quite so pretty if the lighting Hollywood I think I found out as always that is cool of keeping in touch with an audience and this has happened not only and this is carried itself also into the language of filmmaking the shots are made in a way that they don't make the movies no you know from car to car as opposed to having it slower kind of pace generally use of European pictures I shot uprising which was a miniseries for NBC three years ago three or four years ago and when it was shown here people were thinking that it was very European in the my work you know cold colors contrast the contrast I'm not sure such 2d saturated tones and all that and then I I screen it for my colleagues at the AFC in Paris and they for them it was so Hollywood thinking okay I mean I'm in the middle of the ocean with really one foot in and after X years Here I am you know not completely American and not anymore completely European I think Americans are getting very brave with their style I think the thing about European films is that you don't have Studios leaning down so heavily on you and execs worrying about their job and worrying about which way it should be made so the filmmakers they trust the film to make a good job I never did anything that to be doing I just didn't because I liked it and it kind of caused a riot a couple of times in certain studios and they were very upset but I didn't I said wow this is it and continued well that helped other people do things possibly in it but a long time took him a long time before they would shoot with one light or no light or against the window or this or that but it's it's something that I enjoy doing I never think about it I just think about applying it but I never think about I can't do this or I can't I don't we can put the light over here we can put here we can put here we can put here we can put just in front or in the back change completely in the way they've any cinematographer is using these kind of lights can tell really a story can rightly light you walk on a set it's absolutely black absolutely black and you strike your first light for what you're gonna do and that becomes your first brushstroke and then you add other brushstrokes all the way through at different lights and so for like that you come out with your complete picture and then you look at it and say okay let's do it my welcome to a dark stage you say I turn on one light and I've usually this light hopefully it's been there before I put it there earlier because I hopefully know where the lights coming from in the scene but and then I decide what what does that look like and that's theoretically the light that's coming in the window or the light that's coming from the main lamp in the room or something and I'll start with that and the other lights also should be in place then I'll turn them on I like I don't turn on all the lights at once you see I turn them on one at a time and then I start turning them off again usually when I show up on a set and [Music] get ready to shoot I've already lit the set in my head I mean my favorite thing and and using light for instance I like relativity I like light too dark you know big to small and a favorite kind of thing is you have somebody standing by a window talking to somebody who's standing in the corner and someone standing in the corner is in the dark you know so you're cutting from the sky the window talking to this girl was standing in the corner and the dark there are three things that lighting has to do it has to provide for sufficient illumination to record the image on film it has to make up for the difference in contrast between our eye and the film and it has to enhance the illusion of third dimension and a two-dimensional medium okay well that's what hazarded what it can do it can affect you emotionally it can help tell the story you have to know what story you're telling before you even start to think about how you light it and you have to think about whether you want the audience to see everything clearly or whether you want to hold it back of it from the audience whether you want to throw the actors into a little bit of shadow not adding but taking away is better always know but I don't know it's like somebody something's not working so another sandbag in the boat because it's listing you know and they keep throwing sanding apparently the whole boat sinks you know you know don't put any more you take away usually when something doesn't work it's because you're doing too much or you've made the wrong choice I remember when I first first started as a cinematographer the first thing I was into us is there enough light so I light and he said bodoni it's flat and suddenly it opened my mind ah light can be flat or not flat and clearly flat is not good a film is like like in my tennis days my coach would you know where people say keep your eye on the ball well that's pretty easy to say keep your eye on the ball but I had one coach that said keep your eye on a certain part of the ball he put a face on the ball two eyes a nose and a mouth and when you in two ears and if you hit right on the nose it just goes flat if you hit underneath anyway so it's not a question to keep your eye on the ball it's it's question was the part of the ball that's same thing with the screen when you look at the screen you have your imagery it's not just to look at the screen you've got to make the audience look at some part of that screen that's important where the dialogue is going on and so it's precision in a sense it's precision lighting rule of thumb if I'm lighting for several actresses in in a large spaces to go with to 12 by 12 layers of full or half grid and then maybe a four by four layer of to sixteen and in front of a large light and start there and then but what's very important is exactly the direction that that light is coming from even though it may be a large soft source the difference of a foot or two either closer to the camera away from the camera could make all the difference in the world and that's the thing you have to you have to really look at the scene how it's being rehearsed and go wow this is great for this actress when she's looking this way but when we come around or she turns this way we run into trouble I personally don't like the soft lighting too much because many many times it gets boring actually for me it's it I mean I study a lot of paintings from the Dutch painters and all that they hardly ever used actually soft light actually they used a lot of the election light which I love to use backlight was used in painting for centuries but on film it had been in the silent days the characteristic of just using front front light soft light all all direct front light and Mary Pickford was photographed by I think Billie Bitzer at a at a lunch break in back light with her curls of flame and that came up with dailies and it changed history I think that a single gesture coming from a single side is powerful if you put a light on the other side it weakens it now the force of that light is not as strong so this is a what we call a flag and if we were on a set we would do something like try to bring in an a black flag that would take away some of the light so we're not completely surrounded by light from several directions we try to bring it from one direction and that gives us a sense of richness and and texture and a mood as opposed to what that looks like I think as a look I think good cinematographers don't really use light actually they use shadows for the light is creating shadows and then I would like to insist on that you know the shadows are more important than the lightest we're always working against that is there enough and of course with time once we master as a quantity then we start to deal with the quality control the light I having figured out when you put a light up how are you gonna control it whether it be grab Nets dimmers diffusion on the light itself in the hunt for sometimes a specific kind of light that just does that particular thing you find you know technology to be on your site because either other people have already ventured out in that and have created a tool or you go out on yourself and you start creating stuff there's a keynote flow here is a 4-foot tube and everything and it's light it's small you can it's fast it's like it's and it's a beautiful quality light you can you don't have to diffuse it something that changed cinematography was the Kiel flow I mean that to me is all of a sudden practical locations were something that were embraced even more so and it's and ceilings went back on two sets and and no and people weren't flying him anymore and you saw less you know unnatural back lights and lighting changed I think it people were able to put a light that didn't have to travel to create softness three feet away from a person and all of a sudden you had this quality of light that look very natural well of course the Musco light and the the nine later race that are out today have changed things for us because now we can light four or five six seven eight blocks with just several instruments this is a blonde it should be yellow yeah Nero the original DNA Ural blown is yellow that's why it's called long like the red is red that's why it's called red this one's another plan so it's blue it's an open face with a quartz 2k bulb and bound or holding but all van doors on the side but and the great thing it's not here the gaffers they just hate it because for them it does nothing well and us we love it because it does everything not so well maybe but everything nothing does everything I guess my favorite form of lighting is you know put a hundred watt bulb in a lamp and turn it on you know if it's close enough to the actor great you know I think this it's really terrific you know I like that say it turn off the key light a second see I like that you know I mean this is good for something like that but this is really the best no light at all the the back edge and a little bit of fill worked perfectly for that film not only did it give the beautiful edge that you imagined from old black-and-white stills dude that were appeared in jazz magazines like Down Beat jazz magazine a bebop magazine wonderful old stills with beautiful edge light because the photographers had to go had to find wherever there was like to get their imagery so they would use that edge light and so that became my sort of template for all the all of bird a lot of films when you get started they seem to have a life of their own and sometimes your plans don't quite work out but at least you start with a an idea in mind and try to pursue it through the film we were looking for this big finale on Chicago and you know we sort of came up you know in our sort of discussions of this sort of idea of this big like board you know this that filled the stage and would come on and sort of explode explosion of line and then they would sort of machine-gun out their you know their names I guess you light with your best instincts you build in some flexibility into the rigging so that if you want to make changes it's it's they're available to you there was with the bad you know only about five hundred light bulbs in the board and three guys screwing them in and and one thing we unfortunately overlooked is that it took three days for these three guys to screw in ten thousand light bulbs a cinematographer not only has to be a scientist and an artist but they they have to be a manager and a politician and a people person and the your greatest gift to an actor or an actress is to create a comfortable arena for them to to be stellar to do their best work and if they feel like they're cared for by the cinematographer their work is indeed going to be better they're going to take bigger risks than they might if they felt that they were being watched after by the cinematographer many many years ago right after I've become a cameraman a very famous came at that time his name Charlie Lange and Charlie was talk to me one day and he said there's two things I'd like to tell you Freddie said save your money but surround yourself with a good crew it's not realized by the general public with a focus boy has a tremendous influence on the look of a film and he has a has to do something it's quite athletic and graceful and artistic and it's really not well known it's because of name is focus puller or assistant camera doesn't really give blend you know full weight to what that person is doing with a good gaffer sitting right over your right shoulder you can whisper during rehearsals or whatever and a good careful would be there knowing your situation that you're not able to to work whilst rehearsing or whatever quietly in the background when you work the year after a year and a month after a month and the kind of hours we worked on a set and the long locations and you're with your crew really mourn your your family which was the same but that's just the way it worked out but a strange fire crew becomes your family and hopefully you all get along because you're there for extended periods of time my management style is basically admiration I find people gaffer's first assistants camera operators the key grips that that I just love and admire and I got to work with those people cinematography is the mastering of a complex technology in the service of art and a lot of people think that that if you're a cinematographer that you're more of a technician than you are an artist but I would I would say that you're more an artist that you are a technician because the technology serves what the ideas are and how they're filtered through your mind I can say that I've always been type of person that are the type of DP who's always approached the subject matter first with my heart first approached it as someone who wants to tell a particular story and how can the technology help me to tell that story I think the great challenge for us the cinematographers is is moving into technology and I think that that's scary for all of us there's no one that's not scared by it it's hard to keep pace with such changing technology a piece of film is moved through the camera and it's exposed and it goes to the laboratory and if you have light and a lens and you can look at that image almost anywhere in the world it's amazing that that little machine can create so much magic and is the basis of an art form that has more power and influence than any other art form ever invented the cameras are so much smaller than other they're much easier to use I mean you can get them into places that we could never have got a camera into 10 15 years ago they're very light they're perfectly balanced if you want to go handheld the new way of people were freed by their small camera I could handhold and run around Paris with and it's important to know the tool and the best way to in order to is when you carry that tool for eight hours walking in the in the field so the camera is part of you but to be able to actually have the camera in my hand looking at an actor and seeing them talk and knowing that's the way it's gonna be on the screen see and hearing at the same time and to to feel if you are the power I often think of myself as an actor I mean I'm the person who stands up on my feet with the actors day-to-day and walks around them if you have a camera on your shoulder enough and you're shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting you I found that I developed a second sense about where people were going to move and where the best place to be was cameras you know they'll hate me for saying it but cameras don't matter to me I think that it's the lenses and I've said for years that a camera is just a light type box with a lens on the end well I've got a very strong feeling about lenses and personally I'm sitting here talking to you and me you are filming me from over there on a shoulder on a property a single where I'd rarely do that because I think you know the camera was to be to me I would shoot singles inside here unless it's through a particular facts and then I'd drop back off and be more observational with a shoulder in I mean I think it's a totally different effect to an audience looking at somebody on the end of a hundred millimeter lens as opposed to somebody that's been being shot on a twenty-seven close to or twenty one so here we are 32 min or 30 millimeter is on a zoom so sometimes you can't tell what the millimeter anyway but um it's different right you know there's a sense of presence you're right there with somebody supposed to being this I think psychologically it's a totally different effects the psychology of lenses is that a wide-angle lens has a different effect than a telephoto lens and so for example Widing and in many different ways one of them how the face is rendered also a sense of action like Frank bring my hand closer or further from the camera the wide-angle lens is gonna have much more effect than it does and even if I'm shifting like this it's gonna hat it's gonna more live more edgy than it would with the telephoto light I mean it's just the same as your relationship and real life to somebody I'm sitting this close to you I'm not I'm not seeing you from over there on a long lens you know so I I don't think we take that into account as much as we should really with all of these tools available to us the question is what you know what comes first the chicken or the egg do you find a great piece of equipment and modify a shot to suit that piece of equipment or do you figure out what you want to do and find the right piece of equipment I've never liked to hear someone say we can't do it because you can always find a way to do it and if it requires different technology or a different maybe even a different number or two on the crew that's what you have to do I love mechanics I mean in the business I was always going home there's got to be a better way to do this there's got to be an easier way I made the hi-hat because you know hi-hat on a board is 1930s technology and I bet you you still got one on the stage here Ron Dexter is an amazing person the thing that one of the most important things I learned from him is you never have to accept the equipment as built by the manufacturer what I did was I got outside of the movie industry how do other people do things I look at catalogs I'd bounce things off of people and found incredible tools that other industries use it why aren't we I can distinctly remember to this day him bringing home a to see body that he had just bought walking over to the bandsaw and cutting in half you had a soft part of the lens to mount put a different mount on it I take the whatever the simplest tool is to get the job done approach if we can do the shot static then it's on sticks if we need to move the camera hopefully we can do it on a dolly if it's got to go upstairs then it might be a Steadicam and if it's going to make a huge rise it'll be a crane but to try to keep it as simple as possible I find works the best for me every piece of new technology she inspires ideas film stocks have have been the thing for me that have sort of shaped the way films look today as the digital word is coming towards us the film keeps getting better so the bar you know one raises the bar that the other one needs to come to meet film is has much more resolution buried in it then then a 1k a 2k or a 4k skin when you would go to release a motion picture film there's a process called color timing and when you sit down to do that that has not changed basically since the advent of you know color film when Kalmus came up with Technicolor and essentially you sit there and you hold a different color pieces of gelatin in front of your eye and you say do you like this yellow one no no let me see the green one hey here's a yellow and a green or hey try this magenta and you try to get the color balance right I think everybody now is probably played with Photoshop or something like that and these computers are incredibly powerful tools in terms of doing very subtle color correcting I would say the traditionally film timing is compared to digital well what we call a digital intermediate or digital color correcting is much cruder it's just like printing printing a still photograph the great photographers like Ansel Adams part of what they did in creating their images was the negative and the second part was the print and the print was where it all came together in this world of digital intermediate were that's becoming more common there's gonna be a lot of choices to be made a lot of variables isn't an interpretation that has to carry from what the photography the original intent is it's like when those people need at the beginning at the beginning of filmmaking used to ham paying the frames the h1 each one each one they used to hand-painted in order to give it a personal look so by God by us going into the digital Bay but by us using digital intermediate we are hard painting over films and that is going to make our our our art it still to preserve and he's gonna give each one of us a look which is I think it's very very important that we preserve the danger is that the role the cinematographer is much more vulnerable now if you're not available six months nine months a year after you finished shooting when the studio or whoever's making the film is ready to do the digital intermediate you got a problem the downside is any technology that gives you sort of endless options also gives you endless options to screw up the image or have other people take over the image so it becomes much more important for this Montag refer to exert some control over the post-production process before with traditional film printing there was limitations on how much you could change the image or reformat the image or reframe the image without affecting the quality so the cinematographer could rely in some sense of the limitations the technology to keep the image close to what he intended but now with digital intermediate that's not the case he could turn the movie into a completely different looking image the advantages that you only have to do your work once you can take this digital intermediate and and port it over to your HD mastering for DVD and for all other uses and not have to do the work twice again and this is a great boon which was all those only pressures on all of us to do more faster cheaper this is a tool which helps us those companies are out there and they're doing everything they can to bring in the jobs for us to shoot the commercials and music videos but at the same time the economy is tight so that their profit margins are being cut closer and closer so we're always trying to find things that as well as advancing the art that'll also will advance just let us do it quicker the movie industry is is this is wonderful combination of high finance and and art that's what a cinematographer has to do all filmmakers do when you show up you have to look at your restraints as an opportunity every time I see a new piece of equipment I look at and in Envy and I say what do you offer somebody let me have this for Christmas for my next film well I tell a story the first day we were shooting on Barton think I have this story but I'm really nervous I mean I think the guys are great filmmakers so I was so pleased to be working with him in America I am being here really much by then and anyway so that there's sort of storyboards for the day I think and I got and in prep I went up to Jolla said well you know these shots what we were on that we were looking at the location we were in a theater downtown and I had a series of shots going around this stage and I said well what a Joel would you know we could combine these and do a moving camera shot and combine five storyboards in woman's oh well okay yeah that'll be great so we got a luma crane it is about the only time I used it I think and and did this did this little shot instead of five shots it was one fluid thing it's a opening of the movie and so what I love about working with them is they have this very thought-out idea of what they want how they want to cover things this sort of feel of the movie but then they're really open to ideas and that was the first day I work with them so they had this they had this day's work laid out in this theater we wrapped at 12 o'clock you know in the morning I mean midday cuz we've done this lumic range shot I was here we had nothing else to do I think people fall in love with the process you know and equipment and the process is a means to an end I mean a camera is a tool you know films a tool I Matilda the actors are tools the directors are tool you know and the whole thing is to move that script onto the screen the thing about tools and technology is it's how you use them that makes us different it's the ideas in your head and the vision that you have and it's like paint brushes you have one big brush half an inch to inch work what a finish that's what technology today that's how I use it as new tools the relationship between technology and style is a kind of dialectic really technology does release you to do new shots new angles new new movements but you have to decide why you're doing them not because you can but because you should and I think that's the key to to the use of technology you can have all kinds of ideas on what you want to achieve but if you don't know your craft if you don't know how to use your tools you'll never be able to get those ideas across so you have to master that part of it and part of that the tools are the cameras the lenses the film stock the lights the type of lighting you're going to do exposure the lab work it's all part of it well for every artist no matter what the art form they're dealing in the technology is the servant of the artist it could be cave painting in southern France seventeen thousand years ago the technology of creating dyes and pigments to scratch images on the cave wall was the technology that the artists used to create those images when I was a child I used to of envision II I used to run to get a kick by running on stones which were by the sea and moving all of them and the fun was to to choose by with you for your eye on which stone put your food and that you are already a gun but if the stone was a bad stone or because you had the deaf you were barefooted it would be hurt and all that and in filming is a little like that swimming is always running forward looking for not losing your balance and and having a lot of fun from this kind of event yes adrenaline shot that we're having all the sets all the time in our lifetime we've already gone through major changes in technology technique black and white color negative reversal not to mention from silent to sound and I think those those changes talk to me far more greater than the change that we're facing at the moment which is from film to digital mediums I think cinematography hasn't changed but it might require a new cinematographer one who's versed in digital technology and fearless and able to assert the the the view the vision as as the cinematographer traditionally is done on the set is also to command the process through the end so that the look creation doesn't escape the cinematographer I think all of the techniques all of the tools all of the new materials that are that allow us to make images no matter what they are whether they're digital whether they're film or whether they're you know we're shooting on on tissue paper it doesn't matter what what is important is that the cinematographer is needed from the beginning of the production till the end of the production and not until a film gets on the screen is when the cinematographers work work over I think what has mattered to me in my career is the times that I really thought that I really hit the mark was when I closed my mind to all the technique and the technology and listened to my heart and my soul and then the answer came just like that we create our own vision we get to put it on film we get to show it to the world I have always felt that one of the greatest gifts of mankind is not the opposable thumb which has given us technology in our society but the ability to tell story that's very beginning we create fire light sources and we create shadows we need to make images it's not really a thing we choose to do it's something we need to do we've always needed to do this we've always needed to create images before there were words there were images before there were numbers there were images there were drawings on caves that's how that's how deep our drive to do this is it's interesting because the images they created with flickering light in a darkened cave is not dissimilar to the images we create with flickering lights in a darkened theater the future is in us telling stories with pictures but there is only one thing they never change the idea the idea doesn't matter if you do a mono or stone on wood on canvas on films or in electronic the idea is the one that really stayed always because it's energy because it's part of ourselves it's the idea that is important it's why you do something as opposed to how you do something what you do and why you do it if the emphasis remains on good storytelling visually then this great work to be seen in the future with no limits as to what the image could conjure up so I think we're in for a good ride [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] you [Music] you