So uh this is an interesting question. This is from Bian Buran. He says, "I've been reading a lot about the filioke and for the life of me I cannot understand why this is such a divisive issue. Can you please explain why the filioquay was is considered of such importance to divide the church?" So filioquay is the view that uh Jesus and the father send the holy spirit or the or the spirit comes from Jesus and the father, the son and the father. And in uh Eastern Orthodox tradition, you guys hold to the position that it the whole filioquay um is false because the spirit comes just from the father. Um is that is that I just accurately communicate that kind of. Okay. I'm sure I didn't nail some of the technical language. The tricky part about this is I was just reading about this recently is like when we look at John uh was it 14 and 15, it does seem like at one point it's Holy Spirit's coming from the father and then Jesus says I'll send the Holy Spirit. So I could see how people can can be confused about this and also seemingly it it different chapters say both right from the spirit uh spirit from the from the son and from the father Jesus sends the spirit father sends the spirit um but yeah so what is the the big divide we know we know the only begotten son right so father begets the son not as in creates the son but begets right does the way a human begets another human so we know that but why is the issue is issue of the spirit and whether it's coming from the father and the son versus just a father so important. It's a very important question. I'm happy to entertain it. I don't think it's a question asked much in the west people. Uh it's amazing that this is being raised now through discussions between Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox because this has always been a great concern of the Orthodox Church. I should just say issues about the relationship of the Orthodox Church to the Catholic Church and especially to Protestantism. Uh I wrote a book actually about 10 years ago called Rock and Sand and Orthodox appraisal of the Protestant reformers and their teachings. It's on Amazon. I did it really just as a love offering to try to help uh people from my former background from from Protestant background to be able to understand why I became Orthodox, etc. There's material on this subject in that book uh for this person or whoever else is interested in this. There's a lot of reasons that the uh filioquay heresy uh is totally unacceptable to the orthodox and has always been a very important matter for us. It has to do with understanding the holy trinity. And forgive me no one understands the holy trinity and focuses on the holy trinity more than the orthodox church. When I was a Protestant and I was visiting the Orthodox services for the first time, what impressed me most was the 100% focus on the Holy Trinity everywhere. Our worship is completely trinitarian. And Holy Trinity, the Holy Trinity isn't just a a concept. It's reality. It's the way that we relate to God and to his son and to the Holy Spirit. It's very very important to understand the Holy Trinity in a deep way because it's the number one theological concern. The revelation of the knowledge of God is the number one thing that God's t taught us. It's the most important thing to understand is who is God? Who is our God? What we what we know what the Lord has revealed to us is that God himself has a co-eternal son Jesus who is in every way God with regards to whatever godness is right the quality of the divine nature. Jesus is fully that what's unique about Christ is that he's the father's only begotten son. We learned that incredible truth which no one could possibly create except through experience because the co-eternal son in time became a man and was born as a baby in Bethlehem and then grew up as a carpenter and began a public ministry at the age of 30. And we touched him. We saw him work his miracles. We saw him raise the dead. We saw him crush Satan, you know, until Jesus began his public ministry. The devils tyrannized the human race. People would scream and run from anybody who was possessed. It was exactly reversed. As soon as Jesus began his public ministry, the children that were screaming were the devils. They saw Christ. They were screaming in terror because of who he is. It's one of the most obvious expressions of his divinity was his relationship to the demonic world. and their utter total fear uh in his presence. So we learned that God has a son by actually talking to him. Right? And believe me, it took us a long time to figure it out. And he would say things over and over and over again, progressively re revealing who he is and his divinity. And the disciples were very much struggling with this. Mhm. We learned that God has a spirit who is co-eternal with him and is equally God with regards to the divine nature. godness let's call it because he was sent by Christ and the father and literally came upon us and indwelt us and we have been living in his inspiration and his guidance and we learned by practice that the holy spirit is god so the holy trinity is a very practical it's not something that the theologians got in their room together let's come up with an explanation of god no this is about revelation personal experience and revelation of the one true god and of his son Jesus Jesus Christ and of his holy spirit. This is how Christians know the trinity is by experience. Now how do you exactly understand the relationship of the son and the holy spirit to the father? The the church fathers are very clear. The way that you understand the uniqueness of the son and the uniqueness of the holy spirit is though they share everything in common with the father with regards to the divine nature they have personal qualities personal characteristics. Mhm. The personal quality of the father is that he is the father and the origin of the other two persons of the holy trinity. He's called by St. Gregory the theologian the monarch. The personal quality of Jesus is that he is God's only begotten and co-eternal son who has always rested in the bosom of the father and in time became a man. The personal quality of the holy spirit is that he proceeds from the father who is his origin. the error of the filiokequay which was inserted into the nyine creed which did not have the filioquay and could never have had the filioquay because it was considered a heresy when it began to be talked about in the first millennium. The pro the problem with the filio way is that it destroys the theological principles that have been revealed about how we know who God is and what are the characteristics of the persons of the trinity by suggesting that equality which is not a matter of the divine nature belongs to the father and to the son and not to the holy spirit. The principle is whatever doesn't belong to the divine nature. Whatever I mean that means co-etern I mean eternality om omniscience omnipotence all of those things are qualities of being god. What's unique to the father is that he's the origin and the father. What's unique to the son is that he's the only begotten son. And what's unique to the holy spirit is that he proceeds from the father. As soon as you take the uniqueness and you make it belong to two and not to all. If it belong to all then it's a property of the nature. Otherwise, it only belongs to one because that is a personal characteristic. To suggest that the father and the son share something in common that is not a matter of the nature that the holy spirit does not share in is a serious violation of traditional theology. That's saying that they share the co- origin of the holy spirit. But it's not a matter of divine nature. Therefore, there's something about the relationship to the father and the son that the spirit doesn't share in. M that is outrageous. Forgive me that is outrageous and it leads necessarily to a demotion of the role of the Holy Spirit in the church which in the orthodox mind is exactly what you have received as a result of putting that in the creed. Besides the fact we're not even addressing the issue of the impropriy of changing the creed which was can only done be done by an ecumenical council not by a pope. When did they when did they change the creed? 1009. Oh okay. So this is quite quite a while later. Yeah. And there were multiple attempts to change it that the the pope squashed 6th century then again under the Franks in 800. They actually suggested that the filioqu was originally in decreed and that we took it out. Nuts. Anyway, so this is this is the vi the the petristic principle is whatever is not shared in common in the divine is unique to the person. The filioquay violates that and says that something is shared that's not a matter of the divine nature is shared by the father and the son that the holy spirit doesn't participate in and that is that they are both co-orins of the holy spirit. Now when you refer to John 14 and 15 I got it pulled up here too when you refer to that text we do believe that economically so to speak the while the father is the unique origin of the holy spirit the holy spirit proceeds from the father through the son. So the son has a role in sending the holy spirit but he's not the origin. He's not there's only one monarch in the holy trinity and that's the father. You can't take what's unique to the father and apply it to Christ. One it's an insult to the father. Number two, it's a demotion of the Holy Spirit. And you end up instead of relying on the spirit's inspiration, you end up creating a system of authority which forgive us, forgive me for saying this, I don't want to be insulting, but we think the whole creation of the authority apparatus of the western church, postsism, the creation of temporal, the assumption of temporal authority, having militaries, creating the so-called college of cardinals, amalgamating power to one bishop in Rome, saying that he has to a point we think not just that that's gross which it is not just that it's gross but it is something that follows this insult to the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Now you have to build up an authority structure which by the way doesn't work if you haven't noticed. Almost no Catholics believe the pope. I know the leaders do and all the talking the the in inspired people. I was going to call them talking heads. It's not a nice thing to say because they're very lovely people. Very very lovely people. So many lovely Catholic people for sure and lovely leaders. But this exaltation of the papacy uh and the authority of the pope I mean do do you talk to Catholics? I grew up talking to Catholics. I'm still talking to Catholic who who actually believes the pope. Yeah. I mean I think a lot of Catholics talk with the pope but we don't we don't have to we don't maybe these days they're trying. But we have all sorts of statistics. I mean we we're not just making this stuff up. There have been tons of of data produced. You can say the pope is the mouthpiece of Christ on the earth, that he is all the authority. Uh he's infallible, blah blah blah, which by the way, that's 1870. It's a little late to be inventing new things. Sure. 1870. I'm sorry. It's a little late. I agree. The verse the verses. So I I think I'm tracking with you if I if I if I may. So John, and I will give and I will ask the father and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you, the spirit of truth. John 14. And then right below that, uh, John 14:25, but the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I've said to you. Um, and then again at the end of John 15, Jesus says, "When the advocate comes whom I will send to you from the father, the spirit of truth, who goes out from the father, he will testify about me." So, if I'm tracking with you correctly, it sounds like what you're saying is yes, there's a certain degree where the spirit is from the father sent by the son, but when you say that it's both the father and the son where the spirit originates from, you're demoting the holy spirit as a little less insulting the father is the unique origin of the trinity. Now, you're making two monarchs. You have the father who's the origin and now Jesus is also a monarch. Right. Sorry. He's the co-eternal son. Yes. Yeah. And and the spirit is co-eternal as well. Absolutely. Because that's a quality of the nature. Okay. That's the quality of of being God. I think we solved the filioquay. Really? I hope everybody else agrees too. I know. I I I I guess I solved it in the sense that like I understand why this is so important to you guys. you know in in our in just to throw a little sideout sideline uh for those who are Protestants, evangelicals, charismatics to us it's a it's a sadness because at the time of the Protestant re uh reformation when so many questions were being raised about the false authority of the papacy, right, which from an orthodox perspective was legitimate. You know when Pope when when Martin Luther was on the floor of his first heresy trial he stood there and said I stand with the Orthodox. That was what he said on when he was friendly friendly communication between Luther and the Orthodox. Not he didn't actually have any his his best buddy and a better theologian actually than him. Melanin, Philip Melington actually was participating in what began what he began and what continued for a hundred years of theological letters back between the ecumenical patriarch and the Tuben Tubian theologians, the Lutheran theologians. You're right, that is a long correspondence. Fascinating correspondence actually. But it's sad to us that if you're going to oppose papal additions that aren't justified scripturally or in tradition, the first thing they should have opposed was the filioquay in terms of the the the reformation at the time of the reformation 100%. But if you look at the confessions that followed, you know, the 1600s and 1700s are the years of the Protestant confessions. Detailed detail and the Catholics did it too with Trent. Very detailed confessions. This is unusual and this is bizarre in Christian history when we just didn't do those kinds of things. And what's sad about them is when you do that, when you fall into the trap of making these long confessions, you say too much and then you have to go back and reject what you said in too much detail, which is what they've all done, including the Catholics. Sorry to say that. Uh Trent, nobody really follows Trent. I'm sorry. You you say you do, but you don't. And the Protestants certainly I remember when I was a Presbyterian and I was being licensed as a Presbyterian minister. I had to acknowledge any changes to the what was our confession of faith the Westminster confession of faith. Very very long confession pages and pages and pages and pages. I made when I was being examined by the presbyter I made 15 exceptions. I had them all written out. I don't believe this. I don't believe that. For instance that confession says that children shouldn't have holy communion. I said, "No, no, no. I don't believe that. 100% children should have follow if they're baptized or should I follow the community." I made 15 exceptions and it was I was they said, "Oh, no problem. You can take 15 exceptions and still be a licensed minister." So that's what happened to me. That's what happens when you fall into saying too much. But if you're going to reform the Catholic Church, which the Protestant reformers initially wanted to do, you should have started. They should have started with the issue of Fair enough. Hey, thank you so much for watching this video all the way to the end. If you liked it, then hit the like button. If you liked it a lot and have a thought to share, leave a comment. If you are listening to this on the podcast app, make sure to leave a review. And you can even leave a comment over there. And if you want to watch another video that is recommended just for you, hit this video over here. Let me know if they nailed it. 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