e e so as far as is for e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e for e e e e e e e for e e e e e e for it's quite minur s you know what I'll be right back all rise please don't hey hey hey all persons have business before the aonor of Beverly kenon Justice of the North Superior Court and for the county of northw join me give your attendance and you shall be heard God Save The Commonwealth of Massachusetts this courot is now open you may be seated 22117 the Comm versus Karen Reed hey good morning again Council morning again Reed good morning jurus I want to ask you those same three questions were you all able to follow the instructions and refrain from discussing this case with anyone since we left here on Friday yes one said yes and noded affirmatively were you also able to follow the instructions and refrain from doing any independent research or investigation into this case everyone said yes or nodded affirmatively did anyone happen to see hear or read anything about this case since we left here on fr everyone said no thank you very much may we have Miss M please again be you the court jury case the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so I do morning all right Mr Jackson whenever you're ready thank you honor miss m family is important to you is it not yes as a matter of fact it's probably fair to say that family is one of the most important things in your life yes you indicated on Friday that you know John o'e or you knew John o'keef and you considered him a friend yes you also indicated that you know Miss Reed and at point you considered her a friend yes clearly joh O'Keefe was not family was he no he was not a m correct no he was not an Albert no Karen Reed is not family correct correct not a mcab no she's not an Albert no miss mcab when you were at waterfall on the evening of the 28th going into the early morning hours 29 uh you spent some time with John O'Keefe and Karen Reed correct you didn't see any tension between the two of them at the time no matter of fact they seem like a normal couple to you I didn't see them interact much you they were both engaging with you correct she um I had separate conversations with them so John o'keef we've seen from several videos I'm not going to play the video John O'Keefe was situated for the most part over in that corner as the camera is looking the right corner of the bar along with you the cuses uh I think Matt MCC was over there as well correct I can't be sure but I know I spoke to Karen in in that corner and certainly you saw nothing to suggest that there was any tension or Discord between and among those individuals certainly between Miss M uh Miss Reed and Mr O'Keefe correct correct when you left Fair viiew um were you among the first to leave or among the last of I left with there was four of us that left total um it was myself my husband Matt Julie Nago and Sarah levenson when you walked out um Karina Kus was close by close in correct oh wait are you talking about leaving the waterfall the water oh I'm sorry I was confused I was talking about Fairview leaving the waterfall correct yes we were one of the last to leave all right and Miss Karina Kus was sort of in tow right with you as you walking out correct yes and Karen Reed my client was also heading that direction as well correct yes you said something to miss Reed did you not as you walked out we were in a conversation yes did you say specifically you're coming with me AAR no you didn't say that not exactly those words what exactly were the words that you used I said why don't you come with me and you even waited outside in what was ultimately freezing cold temperatures forry correct yes if you could take a look you with Co permission exhibit 53 I'd like to play about a maybe a 15sec clip from that okay actually it's a it's a little bit longer than that it may it may a minute can we pause this for the record you all know this is about runtime 1210 and 17 seconds or so if you could move that up andate to 1210 and about 45 seconds that's close enough Mr K do you recognize what's depicted in this portion of the video I see a car I it's kind of hard to see I don't know what the thing on the white thing is okay let's go ahead and play it let's see if you recognize any of this pause please that's a terrible place to pause little further it's also not super clear can you see a person in that U video from where I'm sitting now it's it's it's a little tough yes let's go and play it forward well actually re enhance that just a little bit did you see a person in the background right there I don't I honestly I don't I can't make out what that is now do you see a person yes the lighting is terrible I apologize not my video U do you know who that person is I don't know that's you isn't it I can't tell from that picture if that's me okay let's say you play a little bit further forward awesome now with the flag out of the way do you recognize anybody in the foreground down at the bottom right that looks to be John Mr o'keef yes do you see someone to his right I do yes and who is that person I cannot make her out make it out in the photo you see the person with the sort of white shoes just above the car yes does that appear to be you I can't make that out that it's me but I know I was there and I know I spoke with them okay so you do recall walking outside and sort of waiting and hovering in about that area correct I was talking with them okay does it appear that you're talking with them no this Frame uh that looks like they've walked away right as a matter of fact it looked like they walked away without talking to you outside correct would do you have video of moments before that when I was standing talking to them well see this is the point where I get to ask the questions and you get to answer asking you do you see yourself standing in the in the parking lot after John and the persons who was right had walked away yes okay um let's play for just a few more seconds pause and what do you appear to be doing at that point walking to my car okay so you turned around and left after Mr O'Keefe and the person to his right walked away correct correct as you sit here even though the video is leaves a little too be desired you know that joh o'keef left with car correct yes person to his right the more petite person with the long hair that would be car I would assume okay so you waited out in the parking lot for a few minutes after you said or joked you're coming with me or something like that correct I wouldn't no I was speaking to them and then I walked to my car you didn't say to Mr o'keef you're coming with me you said to Karen Reed you're coming with me or something to that point right Mr O'Keefe was not outside when I said to Karen you're coming with me I sold I told Karen you're coming with me because John was still in the bar with Matt so you asked Karen to come with you in your car yes to give her a ride yes separate from John O'Keefe yes I figured he could go with Matt cuz they were still in the bar was there a reason why you wanted to separate Miss Reed from Mr O'Keefe at that moment no why not just walk your car with Matt go where you're going to go Matt was still inside so you thought it was important enough to make the statement you're coming with me or something that affects my client to separate her from joh O'Keefe even though your your testimony is John o'keef was just inside the bo objection sustained as to that form ask it differently sure uh did you believe it was important at that point uh to ask Miss Reed to come with you which would separate her from John there was never any idea of separating them except for the fact the idea was you're coming with me not you two are coming with you correct incorrect by definition if she came with you you'd be separating her from John wouldn't we we were standing outside talking be answered yes or no by definition your statement to her you come with me would separate her from John would not because we were all going back to fa of Road but not at the same time ma' correct your idea is to bring Karen with you separate and apart from John we were wait we were waiting for John to come out and I said why don't you just come with me it was innocent I'm not asking for your explanation you'll get to that with Mr L I'm asking for a yes or no question or yes or no answer by definition your invitation would separate Karen from John would it not objection sustained move on would it or would not separate John and Caren for the right over objection sustained now when you arrived at Fairview some folks were already there correct yes who was already there Brian Higgins Brian Albert Nicole Albert Caitlyn Albert Julie Nagel Sarah levenson and Brian Albert Jr and then you arrived as we saw you walked through the parking lot got in your car you arrived I presume with your husband Matt m i yes correct I want to ask a question about Mr Higgins M on Friday that you saw his vehicle when you got to the scene correct yes and you said that it was pulled up a little bit in front of the mailbox correct yes can we have exhibit 66 with the Court's permission please okay this is a digital model of the location do you recognize this yes it appear to be a relative scale model of 34 fairie yes this would be the front door correct yes and where's the mailbox if you can point uh point to it with the laser point okay so you're pointing to an area just in front of a car that's in the driveway correct yes and then the driveway is to the right yes and along this line is the front uh lawn area and property line of 34 F correct yes you indicated that that jeep was just a little bit in front of the mailbox meaning about there correct yes and the rear end of that deep would be a buting buting up against the driveway yes or at least the line of the driveway correct yes that's quite a bit of detail about where that jeep was would you agree no because I drove down the street and I took a left into the driveway and there was a Jeep there okay what I'm asking is you didn't just say your memory it's not just somewhere in front of the house it's literally right in front of the mailbox the front end of it adjoining the line of the driver correct yes that that detail obviously stuck out in your mind it did cuz I was wondering whose Jeep it was did you discuss that detail with your husband at any point not sure you're not sure might have I'm not sure if I said whose Jeep is that no I don't mean then I mean between then and now have you and Mr MC ever discussed where that jeep was your memories of where that jeep was possibly you're aware that he put the Jeep in the exact same place that you did Jack are you aware of that that I am oh wait no excuse me repeat the question you're aware that he puts the Jeep in the exact same spot you just put the Jeep right in front of that mailbox I know he knows where the jeep was I'm not aware what he said in here does he know where the jeep was because you told him what to say about the Jeep absolutely not it's because we drove together in the car and I asked I possibly could have asked one at a time please ma'am I didn't mean to step on your words I thought that's okay you can continue thank you appreciate that I don't think we got your answer though okay yeah I think Madam court reporter was asking for your answer can you repeat your answer to the question of did he know where the jeep was told him where the Jeep I did not need to tell Matt where the Jeep is was he knew because we were in the car together but you two discussed it when are you asking at any time between January 29th and today I'm sure we have yes um you were also interviewed by Trooper Proctor on January 29th 2022 correct yes and you were asked a series of open-ended questions what did you see and where did you see correct yes everybody put any words in your mouth no everybody told you what to say at that time now and you told Trooper Proctor that when you arrived at the scene after you got there you quote first observed the vehicle meaning Miss Reed's SUV parked on the street by the driveway facing the direction of CH correct can I do you have something I can look at to refresh my memory sure do you not have a memory of exactly what you told TR Proctor well I know what I yes or no you need your memory refreshed I would like to see what the report says please permission yes thank paragraph three this is the face page you'll review that especially the highlighted portion let me know after you've reviewed it just read it to yourself do you have that uh does that refresh your recollection yes I know I told I'm asking you I'm so sorry to do this I don't mean to to be rude I'm just asking you does that or does that not refresh your recollection regarding what you said to Tri proor on the 29th well I know what I said to Proctor Trooper on the 29th okay I have to do it this way court rules does that help you with your recollection of what you told Trooper Proctor I didn't tell troop I told Trooper Proctor the car was outside the when I looked at the front door and was straight outside okay I can't quite get the answer I'm looking for the court is going to require me to ask this question again does that refresh your recollection yes or no as to what you told you prop did not say this to tr proactor no it doesn't help you no okay may I approach yes thank you so you did speak to Trooper Proctor on the 29th correct correct and trer Proctor asked you some very specific questions about where things were correct correct focused on Miss Reed's SUV didn't he asked you questions about where Miss reads SUV was you can show me in the report just read so just off of what I just read is that what you're going off off of yes I'm asking for your memory you're testify yes so my memory is exactly where the car was hold on so it's very important that both of you one person at a time speaks okay Madam court reporter has to do what you're both saying and she can't do it simultaneously so the best way to do that is U Miss mccab just let Council ask the question and then you answer and and if it takes a lot more time than we expect it to take it does okay so just thanks go ahead Mr Jackson thank youon I'll slow it down did you talk to Tri Proctor about where the SUV was yes thank you and he asked you questions about where it was situated outside correct yes and you told him that you first observed it parked on the street by the driveway facing the direction of Chapman correct I told him that when I looked out the front door the car was straight ahead and yes it was facing up Chapman but you left out a little part by the driveway correct that could have been his interpretation or an error on his part I see so Trooper Proctor is wrong about what you said jackon no I'll let him have it do you think he's wrong about what you said I 100% said it was straight out FR okay next question please thank you hon and during the course of that conversation you never once Miss mccab not once mentioned a several ton Jeep with a snowplow attached to it did you I'm not sure if I did or not let's take another look at the report would that refresh your recollection to see the report jaction do you think that will help you you I'll take a look at it okay may I yes direct your attention once again to paragraph three you had an opportunity to I have yeah may I approach on it yes that looks like a report from Trooper Proctor of your interview correct correct that interview was taken on January 29th correct correct that interview was taken just a few hours not days or weeks hours after the events in question correct correct and you were asked what you saw what you observed in front of 34 Fairview on that morning correct I'm sorry the night before correct he has specific questions about uh Miss Reed's vehicle okay and when you said where you remember Miss Reed's vehicle being you placed it in the exact spot where you're now saying there was a Jeep with a snowplow on correct incorrect I never placed Miss Reed's car in the spot where Mr Higgins vehicle was so Trooper Proctor was taking notes about what you were saying he just got it wrong you'd have to ask Trooper Proctor I will um and you never mentioned according to that report one word about a Jeep right I was I may never have been asked about a Jeep ah so if you weren't asked about a Jeep you were also weren't asked about a Nissan Ultima you mention that no right because what he asked you was what did You observe in front of the house ma'am that's what he asked you wasn't it no and you said I observe her car no and you never mentioned the Jeep did you you are not portraying what the conversation was did you or did you not a je sitting on on that right by that driveway to tr proor yes or no it's not in the report I don't reme recall if he asked me about a Jeep now following the the events of January 28th 29th um you spoke extensively to Chris and Julie Albert correct what do you mean by extensively um did you speak at all yes we did between now and between then and now to Chris and Julie Albert do I speak to Chris and Julie Albert have you spoken to them about these events between then and now about this case is that what you're asking yes Mr J I'm asking about this case of course I speak to them all the time about the vicious harassment we are all receiving okay that wasn't my question my question was did you talk to them about this case miss m yes I realize you want to give additional answers inor I'm asking you very specific questions objection okay so objection as to the form we've talked about this at Saar Mr Jackson um you've talked to them about the details of that night correct the 28th going into the morning of the 29 yes you've talked to him about what happened at the bar correct we've spoke about how we were all at the bar and Karen and John came in is that yes or no yes okay you've spoken to them about uh your your memory of what happened at the house at 34 Fairview that night correct yes you spoken to them about who was at the bar not just what happened but who was there correct correct you talked to them about the timing of the night correct I don't think specifically no when people came to the bar when they left when people got to Fair View when they left Fair View things of that nature well they were at the bar so they know who was there and when they left and ask if you know what they know I'm asking if you've ever spoken to them about these issues yes or no I can't be sure if we've spoken about the timeline um and you've talked to them about when they got there and when they left I have no idea when they arrived at the waterfall once again M mcab that's not what my question was did you understand my question have you spoken to them about their memory of that night and when they came may they have not shared with me when they got there or when they left in the two years or two and a half years since this event you've had extensive conversations with your friends and family about this circumstance correct correct yes um you've told them your observations of your story correct correct your observations of the night correct and they've told you their observations of the night correct correct so yall have compared and contrasted your perspectives of what happened that night correct we've tried to figure out what happened to John our friend and you've talked to them extensively about your observations and what your story or your version is is that right to be honest not extensively speaking about it is very painful and difficult extensively me more than twice well you tell me I'm asking the questions M MC that's how this works I understand but extensively would mean almost every day do you talk to them almost every day I do but not about the case subjects about this case come up every day the harassment of the case does yes what about the specific facts of the case no it's the facts aren't spoken as much as the vicious harassment is spoken about understood so you've told them your version of the events correct and they've told you their version of the events correct and remind me Chris and Julie Albert are in fact Colin's parents correct at some point you became aware that um your daughter Ally was involved in this matter to some extent correct yes you became aware that uh there was an extraction of your phone that revealed some data about her whereabouts that's not how I became aware no like 360 yes I know what that is that's what I'm asking about you became aware that well you know your phone was extracted correct I willingly hand it over my phone oh oh we'll get to that oh okay you know that your phone was extracted yes I handed it over and you know that your daughter's whereabouts uh were revealed Based on data on that phone correct I I that is not how I became aware of my daughter's whereabouts you testified at the state grand jury question by Mr L correct yes you were asked about the live 360 Yes you answered those questions very fluidly yes yes I know what Life 360 is I use it all the time it's an app Etc absolutely okay let's go over that for a second you admitted that it works as a quote GPS as far as where people go and everywhere that you go correct correct you indicated that it works as a reliable quote unquote tracking device was your testimony correct you indicated that you rely on it quote so you know where your kids are at all where your kids are at all times is that right correct and you even said that it's a quote unquote good parting tool is that right correct and the reason you said that is because it's accurate in your experience and it's reliable is that right it's a good tool but it is not always accurate but you said when you testified in front of the great grand jury that it's accurate and it works as a GPS as far as where you go and Everywhere You Go correct jaction did you say that can I see it sure for approach yes you said 13 through 15 yes ma'am m okay yes does that refresh your recollection it does yes question and answer well I just don't see the word accurate on there I don't know if I missed it Mr M does that refers your recollectionist to the question and answer about whether you said it works as sort of a GPS as far as where you go and everywhere that you go correct and your answer was yeah correct yes okay um so where did Ally go after she supposedly dropped off Colin Albert she went nowhere did you check her life 360 app to verify that she went quote nowhere at that point I had no reason to check her so the answer is no you didn't no okay um did you ever verify through the Life 360 app that in fact Ally did not go home but rather was out driving until after 1:30 a.m. check the app and see that did I have a check Life 360 app for that yep no okay um but you believed her when she said she came home yes and just like you believed her when she said she picked calling dropped him off and then came home yes okay um the Alber have a dog had a dog pardon me correct yes what was the dog's name Chloe you indicated that on the morning of January 29th MH after 6:00 a.m. it was still relatively dark out you burst into the bedroom of Brian and Nicole Albert's home correct yes you did that specifically to wake up according to you Brian Albert and Nicole Albert correct yes where was C I don't know so you'll agree that at least from their perspective you walked in the front door unexpectedly correct yes you walked up stairs unexpectedly correct yes still dark outside right yes you walk through their door and you said you burst into the door into a dark room where they were sleeping correct yes Mr Albert said that you were somewhat hysterical would you agree with that yes you were loud right I was trying to wake them up you were somewhat chaotic yes and you don't remember a 70 lb German shepherd having any reaction no matter fact you don't remember the dog being there at all correct correct you never saw that dog correct I have no memory of seeing that dog okay so as you sit here today cannot say that the dog was here because you don't have a memory of ever seeing it I did not see it no and remind me once again when you were leaving that night that early morning before MH who was the last person to leave is Caitlyn I believe she left after us we talked about this and I want to get into a little bit more detail about it you indicated that at some point you looked outside and you saw Karen Reed's SUV in front of the house safe to say correct correct about what time was that that you first saw it I can just give you maybe approximates um I know I texted when I saw them so whatever time that was all right let's see if we can narrow that down just a little you also indicated that you saw Ryan Nagel's vehicle outside saw lights okay lights belonging to the vehicle right yes I knew there was another vehicle outside and where was that in relation to miss Reed's vehicle it was behind it I didn't pay much attention to it okay and where was the Jeep in relation to Ryan nagle's vehicle and Ken Reed's SUV I remember seeing Karen Reed's SUV straight and then I saw the lights of Ryan Nagel I did not pay attention to where it was I was just looking at Miss Reed's vehicle was Ryan nle vehicle and those lights that you remember were they in front of the Jeep or behind the Jeep I am not certain haven't you testified previously that you remember the Jeep being between Ryan nagle's vehicle and the SUV I am not certain where Ryan nagle's vehicle was so as you sit here now you don't know if it was in front of the Jeep as you placed it by the mailbox def I it would be behind the Jeep or somewhere in between it definitely was not in front of the Jeep definitely was not in front of the Jeep no so it was definitely behind the Jeep behind or to the side I'm not sure well if it's parked on the street in front of the house it's not going to be beside the Jeep right that's going to be the middle it would have been in the middle of the road correct so if it's pulled over it's behind the Jeep okay so now we've narrowed that down it's here as we're looking at the property Ken reads SUV to the right of that as we're looking at from the street at the property to the right of that jeep behind that ran vehicle correct correct you sure about that if my memory serves right yes if your memory serves okay so you were asked about the arrival of Mr Nagel's car at the state grand jury do you recall that I believe so that was in April April 26th 2022 M okay does that sound about right I don't expect you to surise that dat yes um you told the you were asked what time did you see Ryan Nagel's vehicle arrive at the location and you indicated that it was 12:23 you remember that do you have it I do yes take a look at lines 21 on the highlighted let me know okay may yes you were asked do we know what time the brother came meaning Ryan Nagel correct correct um and the question from Mr L was that was from a grand Juro the question from Mr L was if you know correct correct and your answer was I believe he was out front at 1223 is that right correct and the reason you could be so precise with that time m mccab is because you had asked Julie Nagel to give you her text messages with Ryan for that night and you would refresh your recollection about the time correct correct all right and you've also testified that as soon as you saw Miss Reed's SUV you texted John is that right correct here exclamation point question mark that was the first text right correct but your text to John was at 12:27 recall that yes that's 4 minutes after you know Ryan Nagel arrived at the scene correct correct since Karen Reed arrived before Ryan Nagel she and John had to have been there four to five minutes before you ever saw her objection I'll let is that right Ryan Nagel texted his sister at 12:23 here and then he texted again that he was going to leave then Julie Nago went outside and that's not my question I'm explaining what happened in the four minutes you can explain at another question my question is very specific given the fact that Karen Reed by definition arrived at the location before Ryan Nagel and Ryan Nagel arrived at 12:23 that means and you didn't notice the SUV until 1227 that means her car was there for at least 4 minutes before you ever noticed it correct objection is that correct can you answer that question correct the snow condition we've heard a lot about the snow condition I'm not going to beat that dead but it's safe to say that you would agree with me that it was a light dusting of snow correct I should be specific about the time um it was a light dusting of snow at or around 12 to 12:30 1245 something like that it was starting to accumulate okay and accumulate means stick to the ground not just fall and melt right yes so it was starting to turn like a like a very thin blanket of white yes you indicate that or you indicated on Friday that you saw some sort of tire tracks is that right on Friday I don't believe I thought in your testimony to Mr L on Friday you indicated that you saw some tire tracks could be wrong yes I don't remember that okay let me ask you did you see any tire tracks at one point yes okay when was that point I'm not sure was it before Miss Reed's vehicle got there was it after let's use that as a barometer first I believe it was after Miss Reed's vehicle was there because that's why I was drawn to look outside and what did those CH tracks look like how would you describe them almost like as a as a w want like this so uh like a like a half J to my recollection it was almost like started if Miss Reed's vehicle's here let's pretend it was kind of like that like a bit of a weight so if you started on coming towards her it'd be more of a wave okay like this in the road what it sounds like is perhaps I don't want to your mouth but perhaps what you're describing is tracks in the middle of the road if someone is pulling off parallel they would pull to the right and then stop and those are the tracks that you saw that's the wave that you saw it wasn't um up to her car it was it doesn't look like your your description okay fair enough fair enough I'm just trying here so it didn't go up to her car M those tracks belong to somebody else well when I saw her car it had already moved up well wait a minute you already said that when you saw her car it was directly in and then it moved at one point that's what I'm asking about let's just take the point of which you first saw the car mhm is that yes yes when you first saw the car that's when you saw the tire tracks you just said that no I did not say when I first saw the car I saw the tire tracks I thought you just said a couple of questions ago that you saw the tire tracks because attention was drawn to her car that would be the first time you saw her car correct I'm saying I saw the tire tracks because I was looking out at her car I never said when I saw the tire tracks or where her car was when I saw the tire tracks well I thought you just said as I asked when did you see the tire tracks you said I saw the tire tracks but I looked and saw her car because my attention was dra on to her car and I saw the tire tracks that would be the first time you looked at her car correct it's not doesn't have to be the first time I looked at her car I looked out multiple times did you see the tire tracks the second time well I'm not exactly sure did you see him the third time again I'm not sure okay so it could have been the first time could have been but they didn't leave to the back tires of her car no let me have just a moment yes in addition to Mr I'm sorry Trooper Proctor interviewing you on the 29th you also gave uh extensive testimony on April 26 2022 in front of a state court grand jury correct correct and you were asked about the location of Miss Reed's vehicle I'm still staying with that for just a quick second if you don't mind is that right correct you were asked where that SUV was in relation to Ryan Nagel's car is that right would I be able to look at it to refresh my memory please well let's start with this do you remember being asked about Karen Reed's SUV and Ryan Nel's truck to be honest I've had a few grand Jerry so I'm if you could show me what you're talking about I would greatly appreciate it let me have just a moment yes may I [Music] approach to speed things up your armor have just a moment okay take your time the entire Grand direct your attention to 182 187 may I approach yes thank you thank you that's the entirety of your State Court Grand Jury okay um I'm going to direct your attention to Pages 182 to 187 probably scan those pretty quickly and just let me know after you scan those okay those pages I should for okay for yes than did I did yes um as you glance those G my question is a relative simple one relatively simple one but I wanted you have an opportunity um at no point when you were describing the vehicles that were out front in front of 34th fa viiew on that night at no point under oath in front of that grand jury did you ever mention a Jeep did you I was not asked about any other vehicles out front so when you were talking about the vehicles that you saw in front and some paining detail talking about the the black SUV and Ryan Nagel's truck you just left out the Jeep because nobody asked you about it I didn't read anything in that about Ryan nagle's vehicle did you miss it I must have okay is it in there yeah it is okay fact asked about Ryan eagel Jeep weren't you if you want to show me well I I don't want to sit here and did you review yourt I just read it all I didn't see it m can't interrupt what I'm talking okay I will do the same sort of situation okay as you review those pages you asked about the cars that you saw in front did you not I was asked about Miss Reed's vehicle okay and at no point did you mention a Jeep being behind Miss Reed's vehicle as you testified today correct the questions were all about Miss Reed's vehicle at no point my question is this it's yes or no you did or you didn't did you mention ever in that grand jury that there was a Jeep behind Miss Reed's vehicle yes or no I'm not sure I'd have to read it all as you sit here do you recall mentioning the chief I was asked about Miss Reed's vehicle and those are the questions I answered I can't you need to keep your sorry let's try this again as you sit here do you recall the cheap I would have to reread the transcript you don't have to reread the transcript to answer that question do you recall mentioning the Jeep if you don't you don't I may not have been asked about the Jeep so I did not mention the Jeep fair enough did you and Mr Higgins between then and now the the date of the incident and now have you ever had a with Mr Higgins about where his Jeep was parked no have you ever had a conversation with Mr Higgins about anything having to do with this case I do not believe so did anyone leaving Mr Higgins aside did anyone tell you anything about Mr higgins's Jeep and what he testified to no were you ever asked by anybody [Music] to mention a Jeep being behind this reads SUV in this trial can you repeat the question please you ever asked by anybody to make sure you mention a Jeep being parked behind Miss Reed's SUV in this trial not that I recall now after you arrived uh and you noticed this SUV outside um you started paying somewhat close attention to it did you not I went to the front door and looked out the window at the vehicle yes as a matter of fact you texted as soon as you saw the vehicle that 1227 here correct correct and then a few minutes later at 12:31 you texted poll behind me to John is that right correct and then at 12:40 you texted hello correct correct and at 12 42 you texted where are you correct and at 12:45 you texted hello correct correct so that's five text messages and each time you texted him you were walking to the door and looking out at the vehicle as your texting correct I know for the first two I was you testified at another hearing another proceeding on June 8th 2023 correct Jun correct in that other proceeding did you testify that you got up and sat down and got up and sat down every time you were texting possibly okay so if you got up and walked over to the door and you see the SUV and you text and then you walk away from the door and sit down for a second that would be one text and one view of the SUV correct yes so if you did that at 12:27 12:31 1240 12:42 and 12:45 you'd agree that's five times that you were up and down looking at the SUV correct I'm not sure if I did it five times how many times you think you did do it I know I definitely did it the first when I said here I know I definitely did it when I said pull behind me cuz that's when the vehicle had moved moved up a little bit and then did you see the vehicle move up again a second time yes that's when I told him to pull behind me okay so that's the first time so just so we're clear when you first saw the SUV it was stationary correct when I first saw the vehicle it was straight ahead out the front door stationary and you texted here correct then you walked back over to the window I'm sorry to the door to the storm door and you said pull behind me correct at 12:31 correct all right at that point you saw that it had moved up a little bit is that right yes okay so if you saw it move up a second time which you just said you did then that would be a third time that you had to have seen it and texted correct why would that be third time because it only moved once so far you saw it move twice so the first time I saw it it was here and I said here and then the next time I texted I said pull behind me so that was one time two times keep going you said you saw it pull up again the second time so you saw it move twice one place to the flag pole to further up right so that's three times that you're up to the door okay is that yes I'm telling you my memory is twice to the door Mr C it's not a trick question you just testified that you saw the car move twice by definition that has to be you looked at it three times stationary move once move twice maybe I Ed the wrong wording maybe let me have just a moment sure so when you testified in front of this other proceeding didn't you tell didn't you testify that you walked up and sat that down five different times watching that car and texting every single time would you be able to show me that it's going to take a minute your for for may I get yes take a look at those four pages for the that's uh Pages 780 784 okay bait bait stamp after you've had a chance to review that just look up and let me know for not [Music] for for may I [Music] yes you had an opportunity miss m to review those few pages from your testimony in June of 2023 yes did you talk about you were asked about going getting up and sitting down and looking at the several different times in texting yes uh in fact you indicated that you got up and text and sorry got up and looked outside through that storm door several times correct yes and as a matter of fact you looked every single time that you texted you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something correct correct and then after the last time which would be five times five texts five looks after the last time you texted you got back on which would be a sixth time and the SUV was gone just Chon chronologically correct my H my husband and I were both getting up and looking so I didn't ask you about your husband okay just about you the answer is correct yes okay um so you're indicating that you're trying to communicate with the occupant of the SUV that was sitting what would you say 30 ft outside the front door I'm not good with distance it's further than you and I are from each other correct correct at least double that right correct okay so could you give me maybe yards are easier like 10 yards 15 yards again I'm not good with measurements okay uh just right outside the front door though within straight outside yes well straight outside until it mov to the front door of the front door is where it was it's m straight outside until it moved according to you correct yes and then it moved correct and it moved the second time correct correct it moved to the flag pole and then it moved up again okay then you indicated that you had an absolutely clear view of the SUV you were asked those questions correct if I had a clear view Clear View I could see the car out front yes you were asked you were looking out the front door of the house your answer was uhhuh you were asked and there's a window in that door right answer it was opened Yeah question so you had a clear view outside answer a clear view outside yes you remember that yes okay um and is that your memory you had a clear view I had a clear view of Karen's vehicle outside correct and then you reiterated that with the following uh exchange question was the amount of snow down sufficient so let's hear the question was the amount of s snow coming down sufficient to obstruct your view of the vehicle or did you have a clear view of it answer I had a good view of it objection the objection is as to the form of the question and the reading oh that's okay I'm going to allow the question was that your testimony yes so not only did you have a clear view you indicated in your words you had a good view of it right correct then you notice that the SUV was gone after the 1245 text right correct so you're looking at that SUV over the course of between the the beginning text and the end text it's about 19 minutes right 12:27 or so to 12:45 18 19 minutes something like that correct correct maybe add a minute because you got back up and didn't text the SUV was gone right correct so you would agree we just do some basic math you're looking at that SUV on average about three three and a half minutes I guess I I'm if you want to pull out the times and you can look at them well we we talked about the times and you read that you were texting between 12:27 and 1245 correct right so if you were just to divide that by five times getting up and looking um I don't know do the math in my head maybe it's three minutes or so correct um at no time did you hear any noise or sound outside that was unusual caught attention you didn't hear any squealing of tires or squealing of brakes no you didn't hear any screaming or yelling no you didn't hear any loud voices or foul language or door slam no you didn't hear any verbal argument or the revving of an engine anything like that no as a matter of fact you didn't hear any Collision or crash did you no matter of fact the entire time that you looked out at that vehicle with that clear and that good view you didn't see anything out of the ordinary did you no and you would agree with me as you looked at the the SUV you're looking over the bond to the SUV out at the street correct correct there no obstruction between you and the SUV you've already testified to that is that right correct and you can see everything in your field of view correct and then you saw the SUV gone it it driven away after 12:45 correct so I have a question M MC where was the body I have no idea I'm assuming the body was on the front lawn problem with that is you were looking at the FR La aren't you I was looking at the vehicle and where it had moved do you know what field of view is would you like to explain it you had a clear and good view across that lawn to the SUV didn't you when it was straight out I did yes you had a clear and good view of that SUV the entire time until it left didn't we I could see the black SUV correct nothing was obstructing your vision I wasn't looking at the ground I didn't ask you about the ground yet we'll get to the ground nothing was obstructing your vision was it no so you had a clear and good your words not mine a clear and good view of the SUV yes and everything in front of it I never said everything in front of it I saw the SUV it's black it has lights on and as it moved I could see it with its lights you had a clear view of everything between you and the SUV all the things closer to you and the SUV I wouldn't say that so your view was obstructed on what was between you and the SUV but not obstructed on the SUV that's not what I was saying no of course not because if you had a clear field of view to the SUV you could see everything in front of it as well meaning between you and the SUV as well if I'm looking straight out at an SUV I'm not looking down at the ground let me ask you a question about that you're focusing right now on my face yes as you're answering these questions you think you'd see I don't know an alligator sitting in front of me if it was there Jack yes I think you would see something can you clearly see that there is nothing between you and me except a Podium yes well there's a table and you don't have to look down to see that right correct you're looking directly in my face but you can see things that are between you and me because you have a field of vision right objection so I want to see council at sidebar for just a minute e e e May Ice Mr MC as you looked over that flat lawn with that good and clear view of the SUV you could see the SUV and everything between you and the SUV correct when I looked out the front window I could see the SUV clearly like I'm looking at you well right now and it was further away than you are and you did it not once not twice not three times did it five times and then a six after it was gone correct correct and after that SUV was gone and you looked out that window with that clear and good view there was no body was there I never saw a body thank you I wish I had sounds like that's a little re c not at all it's not at all I'll let the answer stand you left the location about 145 is that right yes you didn't see anything out of the ordinaries you got in was it your car or Mr MC's car it was my car when you got in that SUV of yours you didn't see anything out of the ordinary outside correct I wasn't looking outside okay I know that that is the answer that you want to give to every question my question is yes or no did you see anything out of be looking there no thank you you didn't see anything out of the ordinary when you got in the vehicle no you didn't see anything out of the ordinary when the vehicle backed up no when that vehicle turned to the I guess it would be to the right to leave toward Chapman and the headlights illuminated area in front of you didn't see anything out of the ordinary I wasn't looking out the front window again there's that question I mean there's that answer my question is did you see anything out of the ordinary well you were asking about the headlights out the front that's why I said I didn't see anything out there front oh you you didn't see the headlights turned on I was turned to the back right did you see that the headlights came on the car yes in the driveway the headlights came on right and you're seated in the front passenger seat correct correct so according to you you got in the car and immediately Twisted yourself looking directly to the rear and never turned back around and never looked outside the windows correct got it is that normal for you um yeah I'm a very chatty person so I turned to talk to the girls so you made sure that you didn't look out the window nope that's not it at all you also didn't hear anybody you did hear some girls in the back since they were so chatty talking about bread and sandwiches or something right correct but you never heard anybody say anything about noticing anything out of the ordinary correct correct you didn't hear Julie Nagel say that she saw a black object in the yard never heard that but you were turned around looking right out according to you correct correct indeed engaging them in conversation according to you correct so that you could make sure that you weren't looking out the front or right Windows objection can you answer that is that why you did it no that's not why I did it I was talking to the two girls when you got home what did you do I went up to bed what time do you think you got home somewhere after approximately know between 2 and 2:15 um took you a few minutes to drop the girls off correct when you got home you got on your phone correct yes before you got on your phone you went upstairs to your bedroom yes did you use any applications well let me ask it this way first did you make any phone calls just using your phone in fil calls after you got home either downstairs or upstairs I do not believe so did you use any applications to communicate with anybody uh through Wi-Fi do you know what I mean by that like FaceTime audio or Whatsapp phone calls things like that text message no actually and you may not use these but I'm I'm asking did you use any kind of third party app uses Wi-Fi viop doip other than just a phone call no okay sounds like you don't even know what that is I don't even know what you're talking about fair enough so it's safe to say that you didn't use or you don't use any multimedia to communicate you don't use FaceTime or SnapChat or signal or anything like that I've used FaceTime with my children yes but not for phone calls no like FaceTime audio is a way that you can make a call no I facetimed with my kids at school but that's videos oh okay so yeah I guess not you didn't do that that night either not that I recall did you now I'm GNA get to back to your question did you text anybody I did yes who did you text I texted my sisters and I texted my husband and a friend in a group chat um you texted your husband and a friend in a group chat that yes yes your husband was home yes I want to switch gears for a second and ask you real quick about later that morning when you went to John o' ke's house you mentioned on Friday that you went into his house and began to look around for him and you first got there with Carrie Roberts and my client Karen Reed correct yes uh you indicated that you saw you looked in his bedroom and saw that the bed was made correct yes you also looked you indicated that you looked around other parts of the house looking for him searching for him is that right yes you obviously saw the blankets and pillows on the couch downstairs in the living room correct I peaked over at the couch and you're aware that Karen Reed stayed on the couch that night to wait for John to come home I not aware of that no he testified on Friday that my client said at the scene when you got back to the scene uh 34 fair viiew just after 6:00 a.m. that she said I hit him three times she declared it correct correct not once not twice three times I hit him I hit him I hit him correct correct you have a very specific memory of that event do you not I do obviously that's an incredibly impactful thing for you to memory to for you to remember is that right it was an impactful statement yes and you remember it today as well as you remembered it the day she did it yes I may have just a moment may I yes this just the entirey I'm going to hand you a document did you before I ask you about that specific document did you review anything before you testified in preparation for your testimony today or Friday yes did you review your grand Jerry testimony I did yes understood uh you did review your grand jury testimony correct yes so the document in front of you you recognize it yes that is in fact a a true and correct copy of your grand jury testimony on that you gave on April 26 2022 is that right correct you'll agree that your testimony in that case uh in that in that hearing rather April of 20122 that was just a few months after the events in question right yes you were under oath at the time that you gave that that testimony yes and you were subject to the penalty of perjury when you're answering those questions correct yes miss m I'd like you to turn to the page since youve reviewed this turn to the page of that document where you ever said in your testimony that my client said I HIIT him I hit him I hit him was I asked what she said I get to ask questions well I'd like you to direct me where to look I want you to look at the entire Grandeur testimony if you need to and turn to the page where you ever said that my client said I hit him I hit him I hit him I'm not sure if it's in this document but I can tell you today with 100% Clarity she said I hit him I hit him I hit him on that morning so it's not in that document is it I'm not sure if if I could take the time and do you want me to read over 200 pages may I approach yes no I don't want to take time because you just indicated that you reviewed this document in anticipation of your testimony right correct so you gone over it recently few weeks back so we don't need to read it you know that you never testified to that in the grand jury in April of 2022 don't you I don't know that as a fact I would have to reread 222 Pages or however long it is you think you might have missed it when you reviewed your testimony and anticipation for I'm sorry when you reviewed your transcript and anticipation for your testimony jaction I it I read it I read it a few weeks ago it's probably the most powerful part of your testimony ma'am and I will never forget it okay so that's stricken would you agree do you think that's a powerful part of your testimony objection I'll allow that it is yes did you see it in the transcript I cannot recall it's over 200 pages approach yes select Pages 19 192 193 I'm just to show ask question I'll these are s Pages out of your grand testimony isn't it true Miss MC that you were asked and you testified no fewer than 12 times what my client said either at the scene or on the way to the scene at the scene I was asked twice according to this my question is isn't it true that in April of 2022 you testified no fewer than 12 times 12 separate statements you gave about what my client statements were either at the scene or in the car ride on the leading up to to go into the scene you remember that I do okay so on page 190 of what you're looking at these should all be highlighted it is you testified that my client said to you over the phone at 4:53 a.m. asked the question did I hit him you see that I do number two on page 192 talking about when y'all were in the car on the way to the scene Karen asked the question could I have hit him you see that yes page n 193 lines 1 through 2 you testify that in the car once again she asked the question could she have hit him you were relaying that meaning could I have hit him correct correct page3 line 23 in John's driveway she asked the question quote and she is asking if she could have hit him yes page 201 driving to Fairview she asked the question what if I hit him and could I have hit him correct correct page 202 lines 1 through two while driving to Fairview she asked the question could I have hit him correct correct page 208 lines 24- 25 outside at Fairview she asked the question did I hit him and went on to ask could I have hit him correct correct and your testimony was also on page 208 that Karen was yelling nonstop in front of the female EMT did I hit him could I have hit him is he dead correct correct may I approach yes that's 12 times that you re reiterated under oath under penalty of perjury in April of 2022 what my client statements were either at the scene or leading up to getting to the scene correct correct every single one of those 12 separate times you indicated that she asked a question something like could I have hit him or did I hit him correct correct not one time in that testimony did you say she declared I hit him I hit him I hit him did you the questions that were asked when she said I hit him I hit him I hit him that was at the scene in response to an officer asking questions what I just read was us when she first called me or when we were driving in the car or when we were at John's house so I was answering the question that I was asked so you believe that you weren't asked the question did she say to an officer I hit him I hit him I hit him and if you're not asked the question did she say to an officer I hit him I hit him I hit him you're not going to volunteer that she said I hit him I hit him I here that's your testimony no that's not ttim my testimony is our officer was asking her what his name was and different things about him and at that point she was saying I hit him I hit him I hit him which officer I do not recall well you recall the I hit him you just told me that was the most impactful thing in the morning it was it was shocking so what officer did she say this to supposedly I was more focused on her and her hysteria than which officer was asking the question so you have no idea who the officer was even correct I'm not sure which officer was asking her it could have been an EMT someone said what is his name does he have medical conditions how old is he but you were asked that question ma'am on page 208 you were asked what she said in front of the female EMT who was asking her questions and her answer was I'm sorry your answer was she said did I hit him could I have hit him is he dead is that right that is correct that might have been a good time to offer up that she confessed I hit him I hit him I hit him right Jackson so stand as to that form M mccab the truth of the matter is you've manufactured this new story for this jury because you think it helps you out absolutely not you called 911 at 604 a.m. is that right yes you're honor with the Court's permission exhibit 36 has already been marked and entered uh I would ask to play a portion of that 911 tape not the entirety of it okay with the Court's permission I'd ask uh to play about run time 130 to 145 2 seconds [Music] do you recognize the voice on that tape yes that's mine appear to be a true and accurate uh at least that portion a true and accurate reporting of the 911 call that you made that morning it was a very brief clip I'd have to hear more go ahead and play starting at runtime 130 to 145 46 years old 46 long you been outside I don't know I don't know he got car was that you yes that was that the 911 call yes it was and what did you just say I said I don't know he got out of the car he got out of the car M what you said correct yes and this was at 6:03 in the morning correct correct this is before you ever talked to Brian Albert correct or you ever talked to your sister Nicole Albert correct before you ever talked to Chris Alber correct before you ever talked to Julie Alber correct you haven't talked to anybody at this point other than Carri Roberts correct and Karen Reed and my C correct and in that 911 call you said he got out of the car didn't he I did because Karen Reed had told me that she had left him there your words were he got out of the car correct correct did you make any other calls other than to 911 I called my sister what time was that I believe it was after the 911 but I'm not sure you claim that your sister didn't answer is that right she did not answer but you do know that your phone extraction shows that that was an answered call at 607 if that's what it chose but I can tell you she did not answer the phone and you are sure about that as you are my client said I hit him three times right I certainly am yes perfect you also called her at 608 I might have called her twice yes your H I have a um an exhibit this may be as good a time as it need to take a break wish I just have to queue it up it's up to you I don't mind folks we'll take out the morning C just follow may be seated so Mr Jackson when you said it's an exhibit is it in evidence it's not going to as to Market it's a digital recording of 4 minute voicemail on John O'Keefe's Phone it does include uh the 911 call I don't want to play the entirety of the 911 call but I do want to play the entirety of this particular four minute voicemail okay do you know what it is Mr L I do okay so is there an agreement that it's coming in there's no objection to it okay all right I just needed to know if I need it would make sense for me to review it if there was an objection all rise for the court please e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e for e e e e e e e e e e e e for e e e e e e e e e e e e e e you are unmuted session so Mr Jackson is it all queued up or do we need the well we need the witness but were there any questions first or we just going to the video questions okay ask let's bring Miss mccab in [Music] okay whenever you're ready Mr Jackson thank you your honor um M mcab I want to go back very briefly to something you said just before we broke and that was in respect of the statements that you attribute to my client out of the scene you said well there was an officer possibly asking questions or it could have been a female EMT and I wasn't answering questions about that correct hence you didn't say I am I hit him I hit him can you be clear on your question let me rephrase that before we broke a few minutes ago you had said the reason I didn't say I hit him I hit him I hit him is because I was never asked and the subject never came up about what an officer asked her when she declared that so I just didn't offer it and then you said or it could have been an EMT yes I'm unclear who was there isn't it true that at the Grand Jury the question that was posed to you this is Council page 208 Grand the question that was posed to you is quote so where does what happens next with yourself Miss Roberts and Miss Reed and your answer was so there are different you know police officers getting statements from us at one point I'm standing with Miss Reed and she saying did I hit him could I have hit him and there was I believe an EMT a female standing right next to me and listening to her yelling did I hit him could I have hit him is he dead is he dead is he dead was pretty much nonstop remember that testimony I do so in point of fact you were answering the direct question about what happened in front of the police officer and the EM correct there were multiple police officers and multiple EMTs present so now this is another police officer in a different EMT I'm not saying that okay but nowhere in this did you say that she declared the words I ha correct we agree on that correct your H I have a an it that I would like to have Mar as next in order yes thank you with the court permission I would like to play a portion of this and then stop it okay and ask a couple questions about it it's audio [Music] [Music] you Mr C I've I've paused the audio tape just to ask you a couple of foundational questions do you recognize what's on that audio tape yes that is my voice okay you recognize you starting a u a 911 call correct correct similar to the call we just listened to a few minutes ago which was the actual 911 right what's the difference between the two of them I'm about to explain it it's a it's a confusing question I apologize this appears to be a open voicemail overhearing your 911 call do you recognize that now that you explain it okay you hear a rythmic boom boom boom boom the windshield wipers okay so that would have been that was my next question that would have been an open voicemail that was recorded inside the cab of the SUV that you were seated in correct correct overhearing you called 911 and overhearing whatever else was going on ambient noise at the scene correct correct does that sound like a true and correct copy of at least the portion of the 911 call that you heard I have to listen to it again but well why don't we continue listening to it and see if you recognize it okay with's permission yes it's by the way it's about four minutes in total your honor okay [Music] pause it do you hear a person in the background screaming yes who is that Miss Reed go and play this [Music] thir [Music] I I I I could get out car [Music] [Music] h [Music] get [Music] [Music] Mr did you hear uh the the audio recording that we just marked into evidence I did it was very muffled and some parts were very hard to understand understood the person on the phone who was that person I called 911 and the person that was for the most part the person's voice that you could hear screaming sounding sort hysterical who is that Karen could you also Hear Carrie Robert's voice at various times in the background yes and she was the lack of a better word trying to calm Karen down yes at some point telling her s of just shut up you're not helping yes exactly because she was so hysterical and so upset erratic um I want to play the rest of this it it appears that the this recording is longer than your 911 call you would agree with that well I'd have to see well the 911 call is already ended correct I'm not sure how long was the 911 call okay this is about three and a half minutes into a 4 minute recording um my only question is would you agree that the 911 call is subsumed within this full four minute recording I couldn't make that from that muffled you couldn't tell I couldn't tell so if you have my phone record you could I'm assuming tell when month before the 9911 call ended because I know the 911 call was long because there were multiple they you know they had transferred me multiple times right my question to you is I'd like you to listen very very closely and I know that is a it is a muffled recording by definition I'm not going to do about um from this point forward I want you to pay very close attention I want to to ask you if you hear a voice very muffled toward the end of this recording [Music] yes did you hear a muffled voice in the foreground after you heard this read scream or yell I heard two people talking okay one of those was a very muffled voice on this recing correct most of the recording was muffled the one I'm talking about is I just played the the voice that was muffled in the in the of the audio recorde yes you just I heard that yes was that you I don't I'm going I don't know if that was me there was nobody else in the cab of the car you was there I was standing at the trunk of the car outside of the car Roberts was over by Mr agree yes they were kind of running back and forth at times and was by Mr most of that yes but you were the one by the car back and forth mhm you called Nicole your sister um by the way has this ended to we finished playing this just for um okay thank you [Music] [Music] okay that appears to be the end of the tape okay okay uh you called your sister at 607 and 42 seconds correct I don't have have my phone recorded in front of me does that sound about right approximately and you made a second phone call at 608 and 17 seconds does that sound about right I did call her twice yes and both of those calls show in your extraction that they were answered phone calls correct I don't have my extraction in front of me well you've been asked this question a bunch of times right you were asked this question the at the other proceeding is that right right yes and you were shown phone records well if you have them I could see them here you were shown phone records then yes okay and at that time you were confronted with the the fact that the phone records show a 7sec call for 607 correct jaction I'm going to strike the word confronted go ahead and ask I'll go ahead and ask the question shown evidence that the 607 call lasted 7 Seconds my sister never answered the phone okay I know you want to answer your own questions yeah I'd like if you'd answer my question were you sh records that show the call lasted 7 seconds I cannot recall the exact record I was shown but I was shown a phone record okay and you were shown the same phone record showed that the 608 call lasted 8 seconds right again I don't have it in front of me do that sound about right about right and there were a number of other calls that showed answered that weren't answered well we'll get to those in a minute so the two calls at 607 and 608 at least the records indicate about 15 seconds worth of open Line time talk time 7 Seconds 8 seconds right you have the record in front of you I don't I'm just asking if you were confront of if you were there's that word again if you were shown records that established that based on your own phone extraction and your phone records that the 607 call 7c call the 608 call was an 8C call right I was showing records but I don't know exactly what what they were how long the call said because she never answered the phone regardless you also made another phone call at 623 did you not to Brian Albert if you had my could share my phone record it would be very helpful recall it I know I called my sister and I called my brother-in-law in the house I do not know the exact times that's all you made a phone call to Brian Albert as well right I believe so that was around 623 it was a few minutes after you had called Nicole twice right correct and that call was not answered none of them were answered but the record showed that that call was not answered as opposed to Nicole's two calls right right right okay um the calls to Nicole were deleted from your phone before you turned that phone into law enforcement would they not by me by somebody else I never deleted any calls when I willingly handed my phone over you claim that you didn't delete calls but you do know that your phone was forensically analyzed and those calls were in the deleted file folder correct I have seen that but there were 20 calls all in a group that were all deleted so cherry picking a few makes it look a different way okay so we'll get to those I'm not cherry picking anything asking you questions about the records which I would love a copy of if I could see we'll get to that in a second just going by your memory you've seen these records a bunch of times you've been you've been questioned about these records a bunch of times right yes so we know that you called at 607 608 or thereabouts and about 623 two to Nicole one to Brian correct correct and you'll agree with me that not withstanding those phone calls by the way did you leave voicemails no when did you hang up before the it went to voicemail or was it into voice voice mail before you hung up so it was a bit of a hysterical scene that morning and I was in a State of Shock and I was just calling my sister and my brother-in-law they did not answer the phone I cannot tell you when I hung up because it was a hysterical scene I was in a State of shock everyone was running around and what seems to be forgotten is that my friend was lying there on the ground oh I I don't think anybody's forgotten um you in fact did not leave voicemails for any of those three calls did you again I don't have my phone record in front of me that's because Nicole didn't get any voicemails because the calls were answered right the calls were not answered you do agree with me that Brian and Nicole Albert Brian Albert being a police officer never came out of the house right correct neither did any neighbor I know you'd like to continue editorializing after fact there probably a time and a place for it this isn't it if you can answer my question I'd ask that you do that did Brian Albert come out of the house no did Nicole Albert come out of the house no thank you how many of the initial police officers from Hanton Police Department who responded to the scene were you friends with I was I would say I am friendly with Mike lank he was a few five years older than me I knew him I knew him growing up if I saw him around town I would say hey how are you pretty much that's the extent any body else other than Mike Len that you friends with um not that I am friends with I knew of Officer Shan good but I wouldn't say I was friends with him I just knew who he was and you also knew that officer Len was very good friends with the Albert family good friends yes um you knew that Mike lank and Chris Albert had a long time longstanding friendship correct correct uh you just indicated you also knew officer good is that right didn't know him I said I knew of him okay uh with regard to names like sarif elany not so much sarif um has a sister that's the same age as my sister but I had never to my knowledge met sarif and of all the officers who responded to the scene the two who actually went inside the Albert home to talk to Brian Albert and others was in fact Mike Lank and officer good I don't remember officer good in the house I only remember officer lank the reason you know that the reason you have a memory of what was happening inside the house is because you were allowed to actually go into that home correct correct and you went into that home before any of the officers went into the home is that right correct you were allowed to have private conversations with Brian Albert I woke Brian Albert up were you allowed to have private conversations with Brian Albert yes and you were allowed to have private conversations with your sister Nicole yes that was before the police ever went in to do any formal interviews of you Brian horle correct correct did you discuss in these private conversations how you three were going to answer any questions for the police when you were asked no did you talk about what you were going to say in any respect we were in shock there was no no did you talk about what Brian and Nicole were going to say in their interviews with the police no did you give any did Brian Albert give you any advice as a police detective what you should do or say uh when you were interviewed no did he give you any advice as a police detective what you should do with your cell phone no uh did you did he tell you that the police might want to get a hold of your cell phone at some point no did you two discuss the calls that you made to Nicole Albert at 607 and 608 and the call that you made to Brian Albert at 623 no did you ever discuss the idea of potentially deleting any of those calls that were made in that early morning absolutely not would you tell us if you did yes cuz I'm an honest and truthful person did you tell them which officers were outside I don't recall did you tell him that officer L specifically of the Alber was outside I don't recall and then your husband Matt mccave arrived at the scene correct correct he was allowed to come in the house as well right I believe officer lank was in the house before Matt came into the house and a little bit later that morning Julie Albert came over correct correct but by the way officer link after just a few minutes then left the house correct correct leaving all the witnesses inside together correct and I can't remember if I asked this question or just thought it out loud did Julie Albert come over she did and then Chris came over yes even Brian Higgins came over correct these are all friends and family of yours correct not Brian Higgins I had only met a handful of times but do you consider him a friend an A friend of Brian Alberts is how I would reference him fair enough so these are friends and family of Brian Albert correct um and everyone was permitted to discuss the circumstances of the evening before going into the early morning hours with each other with no police there correct I sat with my family in shock and horror were you allowed to discuss the circumstances of the night before going into the early morning hours amongst yourselves without any police presence yes or no there was no reason for us to be allowed or not allowed we did nothing wrong understand my question did you get it yes I understand your question can you answer it yes or no were you allowed that group of folks were you allowed to discuss the case without a police presence yes okay so you listened during that that friends and family gathering you listened to what Brian Albert had to say correct he didn't really say much he was able to listen to what you had to say again you're creating a scene that didn't happen anything m m I'm asking some questions that you don't seem to want to answer Jackson you're on all right so so let's ask a question and let's get an answer okay yes or no with Brian Alber there within earshot and you discussed your version of what had happened I didn't discuss M much I sat there in shock and horror so I spoke very little to be honest with you but what little you did speak he could hear yes and Nicole could hear yes and Chris Albert could hear Chris came much later and your husband Matt M he could hear yes okay and then when Chris is talking about what happened at waterfall you could hear and Brian could hear in other words everybody could hear everybody Chris came much later I when Chris came I was almost about to leave I'm guessing that the topic of what had happened was still on everybody's mind everybody was trying to figure out what had happened and you're discussing it discussing it amongst yourselves that's my point with my sister and my brother-in-law and my husband correct before you left you said you were about to leave before you left another Albert came over to the house correct I don't recall seeing him him Kevin Albert how'd you know I was talking about Kevin Albert because you said another Albert came over and I was six brothers I was told later it was Kevin I see so you believe that Kevin was not there when you when you were still there I I was in a State of Shock he may have walked in asking do you remember I don't remember it no he could have been he could have been absolutely and you knew he was a Canton police officer yes you had already gotten a call from Michael Proctor hadn't you yes told you he wanted to speak with you correct so you knew at that point that the Massachusetts State Police Troopers had take over the taken over the investigation of the case correct correct did Michael Proctor tell you that Canton the Canton Police Department had been recused from the case objection assist let me ask it a different way did you have knowledge in any way former fashion at that point that Kenton police department was not supposed to be involved in objection sustained speaking of Trooper Proctor when you first interviewed uh with him that was January 29th 2022 we've already discussed that a little bit today correct correct and he was taking notes uh while you were interviewing with him is that right I believe so you mentioned on Friday your observations of the tail light uh that day is that right correct uh you told Mr L that you indicated that uh the tail light looked when you saw it just like the photograph that he showed you correct I told him it was hard to make out and with the snow on it but it looked and the picture that he showed showed you a second photo a closeup basically of the of the SUV in a sally port MH that right yes and you said yeah that's the condition of the tail correct yes um you also told officer I'm sorry Trooper Proctor about your observations of the tail light on that same day the 29th right correct that's literally the same day that you saw the tail light correct correct just a few hours later is that right correct and what you told Trooper Proctor that day was that you quote saw a crack in it in quote correct I told him that the tail light was cracked fact the words that you used were that you saw and I'm not I'm not fighting on those words you saw that it was cracked you actually said I saw a crack in it correct that's what he said I said I'm telling you I said the tail light was cracked this is another example of him screwing up your words cor you'd have to ask tro Proctor so I'm asking you did you say I saw a crack in it I said the tail light was cracked so you didn't say I saw a crack in it right I said the tail light was cracked the photograph that you were shown um with the Court's permission it's exhibit 92 I believe from Friday okay may yes you see that photograph you were showing this Photograph on Friday does that look like like has a crack in it it's cracked yes it's actually completely missing yeah and I believe in one of the reports one of the many reports that will say that I said it was cracked in missing pieces right does that look like it's cracked in missing pieces or does that look like the entirety of the tail light is basically gone again in that picture there are the red pieces there are some of it still there so it was cracked and missing in a State of Shock that was my description got it so in a State of Shock you said there was a crack in it no hours after I said it was cracked I never said there was a crack in it so if Trooper Proctor wrote that down that would be an example of him getting your words wrong yet again jaon that's been answered let's move along please than for that thank you your honor okay I want to get back to January 29th uh that that interview with Trooper Proctor after this interview with Michael lank you eventually made it made your way back to your house is that right yes you went with your husband Matt yes and and you knew that Tripper Proctor was going to show up and interview you and Matt Mr McCay correct on the phone he asked he wanted to speak with me said yes so I wasn't aware he asked to speak with me I wasn't aware if he was going to speak with Matt okay uh you were at least aware that you were going to be interviewed correct you told Brian Albert that Trooper Proctor was planning on interviewing you as well correct before Trooper Proctor showed up to conduct that interview at your house Brian Albert actually showed up at your house correct correct so Brian Albert made sure that he was in your home before Trooper Proctor made it to your house correct jaction Brian Albert was in your home before Trooper Proctor was in your home is that right I am not sure who arrived first but he was there when you were interviewed wasn't he he was upstairs yes and you believe of course with that statement he didn't hear anything about was happen right anything about the interiew no I don't think he could hear it from where he was but you knew he was just a few feet away I knew he was up in my bedroom we've talked a little bit about your call records and I want to I want to Pivot for a second and ask you about those call records um this is exhibit 90 may I approach yes thank you you recognize that document I do yes you were shown this document last week is that right correct uh this is a forensic extraction report of joh O'Keefe's cell phone that you were shown on Friday right correct um you acknowledged that it's an accurate report of calls found on John's phone between you and him is that right I believe so yes okay and this shows the calls that you made to John's phone or you received from John's phone on or between or at or between 12:14 a.m. and 12:50 a.m. I want to direct your attention to those time frames correct correct all right I want to start at the at the bottom and it may go in reverse chronological order okay I think it does at 124 it shows that you called joh o'keef and that call was answered is that right yeah correct at 12 1218 a.m. it shows that joh O'Keefe called your phone and that was answered as well correct and then at 12:29 a.m you also called joh O'Keefe's Phone and y'all had a short conversation as well is that right no that the record shows I think it shows um pardon me unknown correct in terms of whether it was missed or answered excuse me can you repeat that sure the 1229 I want to concentrate on the 1229 am call okay that one in the celebrite extraction it shows in terms of whether the call was answered or not the status is unknown correct it's on the last page yeah second from the second row from the top at 1229 unknown yes unknown um however you've already acknowledged that y'all did have a short conversation on that 229 no 229 call correct we didn't speak at 229 we spoke at we spoke at 12:14 and we spoke at 1218 we never spoke at 1229 so you're indicating uh that the 1229 call was either missed or otherwise went the voicemail something the 1229 yes okay um I want to show you a document well let me ask it this way according to this there were six more calls between your your phone and joh oi's phone correct count them correct one two three five six and that's before or that's up to 12:50 a.m. is that right correct all right I'd like to show you another document you if I could approach briefly may I yes thank you I'll take uh so we don't mixed up I'll take 9 back okay thank you I want to show you one more document that you weren't shown on Friday do you recognize this one no okay if you look where it indicates on the left column I'm just putting my thumb here column the msis sdn user there's a number that ends there m 0142 sorry 0142 you want may we approach yes going to answer this question before I we approach no idea what we're approaching about this document yes why don't we just go up there sure they have that please I need to look e e e e you honor just for ease of Maintenance may I approach and handle an unredacted version yes thank you you're welcome uh if you look on the left column Miss mccab yes uh you'll see something that says Apple ID yes look to the right of it do you recognize that unredacted portion I don't want you to read it out or anything you recognize that yes whose Apple ID is that that's mine okay if you look um six lines below that there's a full phone number again don't read the phone number out tell me if you recognize it I do who is that that's mine okay may I yes I'll take the unredacted copy back okay so we don't get mixed up does this appear to be uh celebrate extraction of your phone record your Apple ID yes okay um and you recognize without telling me what it is you recognize that phone number as your phone number back at the time and the Apple ID back at the time yes associated with the phone that you then turned in to law enforcement correct correct okay um you've just looked at the extraction report for John O'Keefe's Phone and you saw those calls uh between your phone and joh O'Keefe's Phone after going from 12:14 after that all the way up to 1250 correct correct take a look at the last couple of pages page three and four of your own cell phone extraction report and tell me if you see a single call listed between you and johon O'Keefe for January 29th between 12:14 and 12:50 totally there are calls to a number that I'm assuming is John I'm just not sure um I see a call it wait a minute this report has times everywhere right it's chronological except for the calls that were deleted you see a call at 55 to John O's phone I see a call at 552 yes but there's not a single call before 5:52 a.m. between 12:14 and 12:50 a.m. is that right not one could this it's very hard to this report jumps TimeWise so you can look at every single time on the report there about that many mhm I'm just trying to say that it goes from 7:21 to 552 to 7:33 to 749 there's no or they're out of order I understand that Mr but if you look at every one of the entries there's not a single entry for 1214 1218 or any of the subsequent 1229 any of the subsequent calls that are all shown on John O extraction would you agree with that correct may I approach yes thank you I would move for the admission of in in as an exhibit okay is there an objection no you're on may I inquir yes fact of the matter is according to those celebrite records and that extraction from your own phone every one of the calls that you made to joh oi's phone between 12:29 and I'm sorry between 12:14 and 12:50 a.m. was deleted and unrecovered correct I didn't understand that report and I'm not an expert when you compare the two you saw a bunch of calls on John O's phone right you know he couldn't have deleted them it passed away right correct we saw your cell phone extraction which is the handshake for joh O's phone and all of your calls are missing right objection can you can you answer that question I'm confused that paper I don't understand it it was vague there were numbers there were calls everywhere there was a number of missing calls there's a bunch of missing calls right you didn't see any of the calls that were reflected on joh O's phone is that right yes or no they're not there a lot of calls are missing I'm not really even sure what's there because the numbers are all it's all redacted so the the you were not seeing any redacted calls M the page you just had in front of me was redacted it's now an exhibit it's now an exhibit your personal information was redacted none of the calls were redacted now the numbers I don't know people's phone numbers I just have them as contacts M mcab you just said a second ago I we can do this all day long or we can just make it simple the fact of the matter is that report did not show any of the calls that joh o he's phone report showed correct from 12:14 to 12:5 I believe there was one on there 552 that's the next morning ma'am right were there other calls in that time period on the celebrate you just said there weren't you just looked at it I've told you that that celebrate report was extremely hard to read right fact is there are no calls on your own Throne extraction between you and joh O'Keefe between 1214 and 1250 would you disagree with that at least on that report jaction on sustained the fact is that you deleted your call record before you turned your phone in didn't you miss m that's what that report shows absolutely not you sanitized your phone because you didn't want the police to know who you had been calling or the fact that you had been calling Jon O'Keefe's Phone incessantly correct incorrect I willingly turned over my phone after you deleted your phone call logs correct absolutely not what date did you turn your phone over possibly February 3rd how many days after this incident was that four five so you had plenty of time to talk to that friends and family group and ultimately decide to delete your phone calls correct objection sustain did you ever have any group chats with family members who are witnesses in this case yes may I approach you yes look through those while Mr L is looking through that packet can I just ask uh to make sure the record is clear did you delete any of your calls before you turn your phone into law enforcement I spoke with the two officers that I handed my phone over to and I asked if I could delete the personal conversations with my daughters and they said absolutely yes that I could so other than calls with your daughters that you deleted you delete any other calls on your phone at all text message it was actually text messages with my daughters that I deleted and that was all I deleted did you delete any phone calls I do not recall deleting any phone calls at all I would have no reason to delete anything so that's very different than I didn't delete any phone calls I do not remember deleting phone calls means you might have in day-to-day life people delete things but I do not recall deleting any phone calls in day-to-day life did you delete any of the calls to John o' no did you delete any of your calls with Nicole Albert no did you delete any of your calls with Brian Albert no with Chris Albert no with Julie Albert no Callin Albert no with any of the Witnesses in this case did you delete any calls before you turn that phone over no no mayor yes Miss mcab I'm handing you a packet of documents appears to be about 10 pages long do you recognize what's in those documents yes you indicated already that you were part of a group chat with um certain members of your family and friends correct uh did that group chat I'm most interested in the group chat between yourself Nicole Albert Brian Albert Matt mccab onor around that group chat starting onor around uh February 1st 2022 okay does that looked like a true and accurate reflection of the text messages between or certain of the text messages between and among that group yes the one I've the ones I've seen yes on feary can you just tell me what page you're on I'm sorry of course your honor the bait stamp number 2148 okay thank start thank you and they should go relatively chronologically you're on our page by Page um on February 1st 2022 around 2:15 in the afternoon on this group chat did you receive a message from your husband on the group that's this is on page 2148 and it should be the middle bubble um the middle and the bottom bubble quote Julie said Channel 4 is in De you see that yes and the response from Matt mccave is eating I assume quote ask Chris to ask some questions tell them the guy never went in the house end quote you see that yes you look at the next page the top 149 there's a one-word answer from Brian Albert what is that answer exactly does it appear to you from this chat that Matt mccab was directing Witnesses specifically Chris Albert what to say to the news media objection I'll allow that is that what you're seeing that is not how I would understand this he never went in the tell them he never went in the house was the story that had been concocted between and among this group of people on this chat correct jaction I'll allow that no John never went in the house it wasn't a story it was the truth and it is the truth just like she said I hit him correct so according to this chat at least the very base level this is one witness telling another witness to give certain information to the media that could be useful to the group correct tell them the guy never went in the house right jaction sustained Matt mccab was directing Chris Albert Chris Albert wasn't even at the house was he Chris Albert was not at the house no but this chat is Mike I'm sorry Matt mccab your husband telling Chris Albert who was never at the house and would have no personal knowledge of what happened at the house to specifically say the guy never came in the house the guy by the way Being John O right that's what he wrote does that sound to you little bit like collusion objection ass at some point you sought out um Carrie Robert's cell phone number shortly after the 29th or maybe not maybe on the 29th correct correct you didn't have her cell number in your phone no one of your primary concerns was to make sure that you got in contact with Carrie Roberts before the day in right I wanted to speak to Carrie as she was on her way to the hospital and I wanted to check in on John one of your primary concerns Miss mccab was that you wanted to make sure you got a hold of Carrie Roberts and had communication with her before the end of the day it had nothing to do with getting in touch with her by the end of the day it was a friend reaching out wondering how her friend was doing who was just taken off the front lawn on the 29th yes so before the end of the day Miss mccab we can do this all day long before the end of the day you were trying to get a hold of Carrie Roberts correct immediately in the morning I wanted to get in touch with her right so you sought out her phone number first you tried my client Karen Reed correct correct but then you found another source for that information is that right correct and you said just a second ago you were claimed that you needed that information because you were you knew that she was on the way uh to see John O'Keefe's parents she was picking them up um and you wanted to check on them correct you've been friends with the ykee family for years haven't you correct so you didn't have a need to get Carrie Robert's phone number did you I wanted to speak with Carrie see how she was doing I was not going to call peg you had her phone number didn't you I do yes so you to check on somebody could just called her I was not going to call pgo Kee on the way to see her son at the hospital to check on your friend that was just too much I wanted to ask harrie I didn't I'm sure she was boggled down and probably did not want to speak with anyone it was a simple thing I made sure I got Carri Robert's number so I could check in and see how John was doing also we had just been through an extremely traumatic event together there's nothing evil here's number m is because you wanted to make sure that you controlled her story as she left your your site correct absolutely not did you take any steps whatsoever any steps whatsoever to influence Carrie roberts' statements no because that would be collusion wouldn't it jaction sustained did you write a text to the group including Brian Albert Nicole Albert and Matt mccab where you inform them that quote and this is your honor on page 40 I'm sorry 2158 where you informed them quote Carrie is here going over timeline in quote correct so you reported back to Brian Nicole and that Carrie was where she came over my house and you two sat down and went over a quote timeline together Peggy spoke to Carrie yes or no I didn't ask about Peggy well that's where the timeline started at did you ask Carrie or did Carrie come show up at your house and quote unquote go over a timeline Carrie showed up asking to sit down with me to do a timeline so we would remember everything that had happened and you wanted to be super helpful about that right jackon you're on it differently sure you wanted to be helpful to Carrie Roberts the two of us were trying to figure out what had happened to our friend and so you made sure that you created and drafted with Carrie Roberts a timeline for correct I didn't make sure of anything she was the one that asked me to do it and not only did you create a timeline you then reported back to to your group Brian Albert Nicole Albert Matt mccab that she was creating this timeline with you on February 1st 2022 isn't that right yes after you created or drafted this timeline with Carrie she actually sat for an interview with the police did she not um that's not in the uh chats I'm just asking she sat down for an interview with the police didn't she when you tell me that's my question I'm not sure of when you're talking about okay let's start over yes after this timeline was created on February 1 at some point thereafter Carri Roberts conducted a formal interview with the police about this case correct do you have the report of of that date we're sort of bearing the lead she did the interview in your living room ma'am right there was on Tuesday two officers came to the house and she sat in the other room and spoke with them so using my question she did the interview at your house they came to my house to interview me and she happened to be there so they asked if they could speak with her also okay did she or did she not do an interview at your house did yes that wasn't that hard you were present for That interview weren't you I was eating dinner you were present for the interview Miss mcab I was in the house yes and you listened to that interview didn't you no I did not you made sure you gave Carrie Roberts everything she needed for That interview correct quote everything she might need for that interview didn't you and where is this that you're quoting from asking you oh I'm sorry you when you quoted I thought it was in here I apologize we'll get to it in a second did you tell her everything that you wanted her to say no I did not did you in any way attempt to influence her testimony before she gave that interview in your living room absolutely not Carrie is her own person but then you did report your pro her progress to the Albert and McCade group in that group chat didn't you can you show me where please sure isn't it true that in a group text with Brian Albert Nicole Albert Matt mccab you wrote and this is on page 2159 quote and we handed Carrie sorry and and handed phone to Carrie you remember that I see that yes and the very next text is from you telling the group she's telling him everything in all caps to exclamation points yes and then you went on to say at 2:55 p.m. basically the same moment quote all this stuff end quote correct correct so when you said a couple of minutes ago that you weren't listening to what she was saying that was a lie wasn't it we're talking about two different interviews I'm talking about when the officers came to my house and spoke to her there you're saying that I handed the phone over so that would be a different interview M this is on February 1st 255 I wasn't there you were there she was in your house on February 1st giving an interview to the police wasn't she one day she was there giving an interview to the police and while she was there but I do not believe it was at 2:55 it was later in the evening so I think you might have two events confused so either way whether she was on the phone with the police or sitting there in your living room with the police you were listening to her and Reporting back to the group she's telling them everything the one no it's not correct the one that she did with the police she did in the other room and the one she did on the phone I O I said she's telling them everything I don't because Carrie is an extremely blunt person and she was giving personal feelings about the situation and I was horrified by it to the police to the police and you're listening I heard a statement she said that horrified me and then you're reporting it back to the group weren't you that one thing she stated I reported back to the group yes so you're listening in on a police interview correct one side it was a phone call one side of it right it was a phone call you're listening in on a police interview one side of itre correct you're EES dropping on that interview correct I'm sitting with her and she's taking the call and then you're reporting that interview back or her success in that interview in your mind back to the group involving Brian Albert Nicole Albert and Matt McCay isn't that what you're doing jaon I'll allow it I absolutely not that is not how it went I was horrified because Carrie's a blunt person not like me and she had made a comment about Miss Reed and Mr O'Keefe's relationship and I was shocked and horrified that she said it the way that she did you were so shocked and horrified I said oh my God she's telling them everything yes you decided it was so important that you need to report that back to Brian Albert and his friend I I was horrified so you reported that back yes I said she told them everything when you were first confronted with these messages at a a separate proceeding in June of 2023 you claimed that you couldn't remember what that exchange was about correct correct and now you just all of a sudden have this new found memory of exactly what that text message was referring to correct jackon I it yes because Carrie Roberts said a statement and it jogged I said oh my God that's what I meant when I said she said everything when did she say this statement uh uh probably in the fall she has said made this state a few times in reference to Karen you and car Roberts are still coordinating your statements together oh no we're not it's just an opinion she has of Miss Reed and all of a sudden that became your quote everything all the stuff it didn't just become it I forgot that I had written it and one day Carrie made the statement and I'm sure it happens to everyone you forget something and then you're like oh my God that's what it was I'm not sure that happens to everyone jaction sustained let me ask you a different question when you were asked under oath a year ago when it was things were fresher in your mind you were asked specifically what she was refer what you were referring to and your answer was I have no idea correct correct because you didn't want to tell them that you had coordinated your statement with Carrie Roberts isn't that right no that is not right I did not remember what it was went on to be asked specifically uh do you know who you were referring to and you said maybe Carrie maybe I'm talking to Carrie and the question was but you don't recall this text and your answer was I don't remember that's what you testified to a year ago correct correct but now you're talking about some memory of a disparaging comment that Carrie Roberts has about my client and that's the ever thing in your mind yes the things that she was saying quite obviously what you were referring to in that text in real time Miss mccab was that Carrie Roberts was telling the police quote everything that you had laid out for her in this timeline meeting you had with her correct objection so it's sustained as to that form you can ask that question in a proper way the Everything You referred to in that text in real time was what you had what you had worked out with Carrie in that timeline meeting wasn't that was the everything you were referring to correct incorrect we never worked together to come up with the story we have the facts and the everything was a comment about your client you went on in your group chat with Brian Albert Nicole Albert Matt McCade to give running updates about whether or not car Roberts was actually following the script correct incorrect there was no script 167 Matt mccab texted the group Brian comma sitting separate in quote correct Yes sounds like Matt mccab is reporting back to Brian Albert following your instructions we're sitting separately objection sustained one minute later Brian Albert had a one-word response to the Brian sitting separate correct yes what was that one word response okay it sounded like he was giving his approval order people were situated in that meeting correct jaction sustained at page 2168 515 it's very hard to just look at two texts and try to understand what the context is C if you don't understand a question that I have just let me know but otherwise let me ask a question 21 I'm sorry on page 2168 uh at 5:15 you wrote The Group quote you listening correct yes and at the same time 5:15 you wrote cops here again end quote correct correct that was in reference to the police coming over to your house to further interview Carrie Roberts wasn't it that was when they came to talk to me and Carrie Roberts was there correct was at my house correct and a few minutes later at 5:23 Nicole albertt texts call us after correct correct and a few minutes after that Matt mccab texts quote this girl could write a book dot dot dot nonstop correct correct so obviously Matt mccab along with you was listening to Carrie Roberts in her interview we were sitting in the kitchen eating dinner with our children and Carrie Roberts was in a different room but she was going going on and on and on as she does because they were in the other room and you could listen I could hear voices you could hear her interview with the police I did not hear her interview I could hear them talking but I was sitting at a table with my children eating dinner getting ready to go to a basketball game you then responded to Matt mccab I love it yes and then you responded about this interview he just testified under oath and under penalty of perjury not hearing anything about just hearing voices your next text was quote she is telling them everything yes end quote correct yes so what you said just a few minutes ago about not knowing what she was saying I could just hear voices that was a lie it Jack sist and a couple of seconds later Nicole Albert responds one word what was her response good so in order those text say you listening you say you listening the objection sustained at the end of the day you were e dropping on an interview Carri Roberts was having with law enforcement in their official capacity weren't you no I was sitting eating dinner and some of the things obviously I overheard but I was not e I'm saying there's a possibility if I'm sitting in this room eating dinner and someone's in another room talking you you can hear bits and pieces was I Eve stopping no is there some big coverup story no but why do the cave does your story does your testimony keep evolving a second ago you said you told this jury you said I couldn't hear a thing all I could hear was voices like muffled voices from the other room she was going on and on about something yeah and then when I confronted you with a text message where you said she's telling them everything now it's well I may have heard a couple of things which is it no she was going on and on and on like she does and you were listening on and on and on like you do I was probably hearing bits in pieces why was it so important to report back to the group that you were happy that Carrie Roberts was saying quote everything objection I'll allow it we had both lost our friend krie Roberts was in shock as was I in shock the two of us had all this information that just kept coming back to us and back to us and it was it's terrifying when you you go through an experience and you're in shock and Carrie was remembering things I was remembering things so I was happy for her that she was piecing it all together and I had pieced it all together because at the end of the day our friend was dead and we were trying to figure out what had happened to him together there was no direction we were all trying to figure out what had happened because that's what you do when you lose somebody you love were you happy for her or were you happy for you and Brian and Matt and Nicole for me and for her because we were going through this together there was no conversation story out that you're trying to get out through carry Roberts objection I'll allow that there is no there is no story there's facts and Truth on this side there's no story the story that you've created is not the truth did I create I hit him I hit him I hit him or did you that's fact a fact that conveniently you didn't mention in your report it's a lank grand jury right that kind of fact jaction is that right that is the fact I mentioned so in some reports it's there the fact is you wanted to keep very close tabs on Carrie Roberts didn't you no on January 29th if you look on page 2223 did you text the group quote Carrie talked to Cops and kept it simple end quote yes it's becoming a habit for you to keep tabs on Carrie Roberts isn't it jaction sustained you'll agree that over and over and over and over again you're reporting to this tight group Nicole Brian Albert your husband how Carrie's doing in her stories to the police aren't you over and over and over I am telling them what is going on I wouldn't say it well let's count them was there four of them you're saying over and over and over and over it's a bit extreme I see so you you take issue with the way that I phrase over and over and over well it's misleading I believe I see okay well let me see if I can try this in a non-misleading way Mr okay so at least one of us I'll withraw you consistently reported back to the group how krie Roberts was doing with the police didn't you I would update them after Kelly Carrie saw and spoke to the police again we were all trying to figure out what had happened happened to John there's yet another text from Brian's wife Nicole on January 29th and this is on page 2226 and she says quote we'll get more info tomorrow don't want to text about it end quote and then you texted right correct correct what's that about Jackson I'll allow it we decided that we would talk on the phone my children look on my phone her children look on her phone we were working with the police I was sharing information and everything that had happened we didn't want it to leave our little circle because we were trying to figure out what happened and we're not going to go running around letting people see my gosh they think this might have happened or that might have happened it was nothing more than let's not text about it so you wanted to keep it your words in your little circle correct correct I didn't want it all out there what we had fought had happened I was going to let the police do their job so by definition the info that Nicole Albert was talking about that needed to be kept very tight very secret correct we needed the police to do their job so we weren't going texts and Nicole wanted her texts and the group wanted their text to be kept secret and private isn't that right not secret and private we just weren't going to communicate certain things over text did you give or did anybody give you any private information uh the next day on January 30th didn't even give me private information so so let me put it in context that text from Nicole Albert we'll get info we'll get more info tomorrow I don't want to text about it that was on the 29th right okay saw did you get additional info on the 30th the next day I have no idea did anything significant happen on January 30th in connection with this case any meetings any get togethers that you can think of I went to the O'Keefe's house other than that anything else on the way home um Carrie Robert's daughter is good friends with Michael lank so we dropped her off at Michael lank's house and Mike's wife came out of the house him and Carrie are friends and she you know jumped in the car and was consoling Carrie and asks how the o'keefes were doing and you know we talked to her so you pulled up to Michael L's house on the 30th that's never been reported has it I guess I never thought much of it never thought about reporting the fact that one of the first responding officers on the case working for campon PD which is conflicted off the case you had a meeting with it was unre the next day I didn't meet I didn't meet with Michael L I see so you pulled up in the car tell me about that again you pulled up in the car and what happened and Lex her daughter went into the house okay and then you just drove away no Michael's wife came out of the house okay and y'all had a conversation about what she got in the car and was her and Carrie are friends and she was checking on Carrie and you know just saying oh my God this is so crazy you know just checking in on the o'keefes how long did that take well they car's a talker so could have been an hour could have been an hour standing outside sitting in the car sitting in the car on February 30th never came in the house I Fe not February 30th I said February 30th January 30th never went in the house I might have ran in to go to the bathroom it's the back end of a blizzard it's freezing cold outside sitting in the car for an hour the GU was running Carrie and they were talking it's it's her friend did you have any conversation before you testimony today with anybody about you going to Michael L's house on January 30th anybody yes tell me about that who was it and when it was a couple of weeks ago at the DA's office the DA's office had an interview with you correct not an interview they just explain this process I mean a conversation how about that yeah yes you met with Folks at who you meet with um Mr L Miss mlin Steve Nelson um Trooper Brian Tully um I believe oh um and another woman I can't remember her name unfortunately someone from the DA's office yes no Lynn Bean no um she's here today she works with Steve Nelson ah but an employee of the Ba's office yes that sounds like pretty big meeting I wouldn't call it a big meeting there was what five of them how long did you five of them and then you uh my daughter Ally came with me also getting the meeting's getting bigger anybody else no we both went was Ally in the room when you were going say interviewed but you take issue with every word I use when you were talked to by the da Ally and I were both um in the room when they received when they went over everything you know how this all works because this is all brand new to us and then they asked me to leave the room um you were about to say and I lost the end of that sentence when they received received what I didn't mean the word received did you receive anything no I looked at my grand jury notes um now at this meeting was anybody taking notes no you have a bunch of lawyers and Das and has a notepad in front of notes I believe Mr L had a number of folders on the table taking notes I know I do not believe anyone was taking notes it was a casual meeting to explain this process was that meeting recorded in any way did you aware of no how long did the meeting last Ally and I were probably in the room I don't know approximately 20 minutes then I left and they spoke with her and then I went back in and they spoke with me how long did they speak with you honestly maybe half hour hour and during that half hour to an hour did they go over with you what they expected your testimony to be they never spoke about what they expected my testimony to be they just um showed me some pictures that might be shown um I listened to the 911 what pictures um just of the house and how I'd be asked to you know show okay we're going to put a picture of the house you'll have a laser when we started this conversation it was because you said in answer to my question was anything ever brought up to you about this meeting at L's house you said yes MH so obviously they did talk to you about your testimony it wasn't just about the process correct I was told I asked what Discovery had been turned in in regard to me so you wanted to prepare to make sure that you knew what you might be asked on Cross examination correct I wanted to know what was coming yes and you knew that one of the things was coming after this meet well let me ask it a different way during this meeting did Mr Wally tell you one of the things that's got to be coming is you had an off the books meeting at links house for 45 minutes you tell you that no that's not how I was told did he tell you that the defense had uncovered a report that established that you were actually at Michael L's house for 45 minutes that had never been reported to the defense or the prosecution before the phone extraction had been done did you tell you that I was told I was asked oh were you at Michael lenss on the 30th so you've had a lot of time to come up with a story about why you were at Michael LS correct jaction I'll allow it I didn't need time to make up a story because I have the truth of why we went and the truth according to you is you pulled up at Michael LS house the first responding officer and Friends of the alums had a meeting with him the next day that was never reported to anybody for any purpose I just met with his wife out in the car while the car was running 45 minutes to an hour that's your story it's not a story it's the truth Carrie dropped her daughter off the wife came out Carrie is a talker they started talking a tragedy had happened the day before it is interesting would you not agree that the day before you had this off thee books meeting at Michael L's house Nicole Albert says we'll get more info tomorrow meaning the very day you show up at L's house again I never spoke with Mike lank at his house it was not an off the books meeting it was Carrie dropping her daughter at one of her good friends house whose husband happens to be a Canton cop that it that is what it is that is the truth a love lot of coincidences jaction yes um that's by the way uh what did Mr La show you in respect of this issue about this meeting at Michael L's house he showed me nothing he just told you about it Brian Telly told me okay what did Mr tly tell you tro what exactly did he tell you at this meeting about this Michael link issue he said did you go to Michael LS on January 30 30th and at first I said no I've never been to his house and then I thought about it and I said oh my gosh yes I did go there and that was the extent of the conversation you said yeah I did go there and he didn't ask a follow up like what the heck were you doing at Michael bl's house the day after this issue I'll it you didn't ask to follow up like that I do not believe he did so Trooper Tully had you come down for an interview he confronted you with a a fact that had never been disclosed before to Wi you showed up at Michael L's house and when you said yeah oh yeah hang on I think your words were oh my gosh yeah I think I did go there and he didn't ask a follow-up question he was there you're you're you're spinning all of this I ma'am I do a lot of things yeah I don't spend there's a judge here to make sure that I don't spend I'm asking you a question it's very direct I do not believe he asked me a follow-up question so that was the end of that conversation about Michael correct correct Mr L didn't have any follow-up questions I don't believe Mr L was in the room who else I thought you said Mr L M mclf they were they might not have been in the room at that time I see so Mr L just happened to what just sauner out it was a different time so Mr L was in and out of the conversation Mr L was not there when this conversation happened why is that because I met with Brian Tully and he was not there is Brian T taking notes no he's a State Trooper interviewing a witness and jaction sustained the same report that has you at Mich a L's house also has you picking up Nicole Albert going by the going by 34 Fairview just before you went to Michael L's house you aware of that we did not pick up Nicole Albert so you went by 34 Fairview then diverted and right after you went by 34 Fairview went directly over to Michael L's house what was the reason that you stopped by 34 fairw first we didn't stop by maybe carry slowed down but we did not stop by 34 so you drove by did a drive by 34 Fairview G what no that's how we get to Michael L's house if the report shows that you actually stopped at 34 Fairview and then went to Michael L's house would we have another oh my gosh moment nope no oh my gosh moment we did not pick up Nicole Alber did anybody else go with you over to Michael L's house no it was Carrie myself and her daughter your honor um maybe approach briefly okay e J we're going to try and go right up to 1:00 okay as M we've talked uh in some detail about your calls with John O'Keefe on the morning of January 29th uh you recall that conversation um I want to focus your attention on or about or at or about 12:14 a.m. moving up to about 12:50 a.m. you have that time in mind yes you've seen uh the cele extraction from joh O's phone which Mr showed you the other day correct correct and you went through the series of phone calls that were made and that appear on his extraction report correct correct I just want to run through those TimeWise very quickly just to orient you if I can and then I'll ask you some specific questions about it there was a call at 12:14 a.m. correct correct that was a call that you indicated was answered we had a conversation with Mr oi correct it was a call at 1218 and 47 seconds that call also was answered by you joh o Keef made that phone call correct correct then there's the 1229 and 44 second call that you indicated was not answered correct and that was a call to you sorry from you to him correct there was a 1241 call from you to to John O'Keefe correct that was correct there was a 1241 and 54 second call from you to him is that right correct there was a 12:43 and 19 18 second call from you to him correct 12:46 a.m. and 16 seconds from you to him correct 1247 and 52 seconds from you to him correct and 1250 and 37 seconds from you to him correct correct you saw in his extraction report that all of those calls after 1218 were missed calls correct in the his report that you showed me correct in other words the only two calls that were answered in the 1214 and 1218 everything else was a missed call I believe so I would have to refer to it again because I've seen so many reports and Miss mcab according to the extraction reports that you've seen this morning comparing yours to his every single one of those calls was deleted off your phone correct according to the reports according to that report yes let me ask you another question have you ever misplaced your phone yes in in a life everybody does it right yes what's one of the first things you do if you're with your daughter or your husband or a friend and you're in your house and you misplace your phone what do you do oh ask them to call my phone right even over and over and over right correct could be as many as five six seven times usually I hear it the first or second time if you're looking for a buzz or a ring isn't that right correct and you might do that if you're searching for a missing phone correct correct with regard to the calls that were deleted from your phone you were asked about this under oath at another proceeding weren't you correct and you claimed at another proceeding that you had an explanation for all these missed calls starting at 1229 12:41 1241 1243 1246 1247 1250 you have an explanation for that right can I see the report I'm asking you about your prior testimony and I'm ask about these calls yes I'm asking can I see it please I'm asking you a different question at your other pro at this other proceeding which under oath yes right you explained that these calls were what these missed calls inessive Mis calls what were they you used a word two words I believe I used the word but dials you claimed that every one of these calls was a butt dial is that right yes so according to you you literally butt dialed John O'Keefe's Phone six times in the span of 19 minutes is that right I don't remember making any of those calls so my assumption is I put my phone in my back pocket and that was it when you dial someone by mistake hit a button set your phone down phone has to be open you'll agree with that right correct can't be locked because Tak several iterations of movement to get a phone open Bas ID or password right correct so when you hit the button by mistake walk away that's a butt dial people call butt dials what happens with the call I assume it goes to voicemail good assumption because that's exactly what it does isn't it you've had a phone for a lot lot of years right yes just rings and rings and Rings until it goes to voicemail correct so in order to hang up that butt dial you have to interact with that phone yet again don't you yes so if you had six butt dials seven I think it's seven butt dials you'd not only have to interact with the phone once to butt dial John you'd then have to interact with it every single time to turn off that phone ringer so it doesn't go to voicemail what you I suppose which makes 14 interfaces with that phone over the course of 19 minutes is that right I mean I guess I don't have it all right in front of me but there were also text messages I was sending so again maybe I said oh shoot I called them and then I turned it off but your claim is you don't remember those incessant butt dials and those incessant hangups at all correct I I honestly don't so you would have had to forget that you interacted but by the way you'll agree that the phone extraction showed that John got no voice from I didn't look but so that means you would have had to interact with that phone 14 times over the course of 19 minutes at the exact time frame that the Commonwealth suggests lost his life objection sustained you can ask that differently and this will be a last question for today please yes your honor the period between 1229 and 1250 which is the exact period that you were quote but dialing John multiple times that's also the exact period that John O'Keefe was rendered incapacitated right that's sustained we'll start up again tomorrow okay thank you all right folks I'm going to want to St walk thank you thank you all right so jurors please do not discuss this case with anyone don't do any independent research or investigation into the case if you happen to see hear or read anything about the case please now tomorrow will be a full day forecast is it's going to be very hot you'll see this court fluctuates it could be really cold in here could be really hot in here so maybe bring up some all right see thank you is closing leav your notebook Mr Jackson I don't know if this is yours approach okay may SE um Mr L who else might you have tomorrow um so Miss Roberts would be next um Laura Sullivan uh maretta Sullivan and then I think it would be Mr Higgins after that okay all right it's not likely we'll get through all of those correct probably not okay all right thank you very much we'll see you tomorrow all rise for the court please Jim I'll see you too if you sure e for