Before Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency took a chainsaw to the United States government, there was Javier Mille, seen by many as an inspiration for Musk's drastic cuts. Argentina's chainsaw wielding president and self-declared anarco capitalist was elected in December 2023. Mille campaigned on promises to blow up the central bank and take a chainsaw to Argentina's bloated bureaucracy. As Mille approaches the midpoint of his term, his record is disputed. While some economic indicators have rebounded, sweeping cuts to public spending have led to mass layoffs and sparked a wave of resistance. Pensioners, unions, and students have flooded the streets in widespread protest. My guest tonight is Danna Mondino, an economist by trade. She was the architect of Malay's foreign policy until she was abruptly ousted as foreign minister last October. I'm Mary Hassan and tonight I'll go headto-head with Danna Mandino. I'll challenge her on Mille's incendiary rhetoric and whether he's mentally fit to lead her country. I'll also push her on the toll of Mille's extreme economic agenda. Has he delivered an economic miracle or just more pain? Tonight, I will also be joined by three experts. Matias Veneno, a professor of economics at Bucknell University and former senior research manager at the Central Bank of Argentina. Martina Rodriguez, the co-founder of NI Una Menos UK and a member of the Argentina Solidarity Campaign and Maxwell Marlo, director of public affairs at the Adam Smith Institute in London. Danna Mondino, thank you so much for coming all the way to take part in head-to-head today. There is much to discuss. You served as foreign minister under President Javier Malay. This is a man who the critics would say gutted social programs, publicly insulted foreign leaders, his allies, called journalists the prostitutes of politicians. You served under him until last October. Yep. when he rather unceremoniously fired you and called you and your colleagues in the foreign ministry traitors, parasites, arrogant imbeciles. And yet you still support this rather strange man. Why? Because that's an incomplete list. There are many things that he did on the right way on very very good things and particularly he's trying to turn Argentina around. So my job was whenever he would say something not so nice about somebody else, I make sure that the other guy hadn't said something uglier before. Okay. So it's not that MLE would start those things and and let's fix the concept there. Countries are there forever. Leaders come and go and the relationship with the countries within countries and with other countries is far more important what one person can decide today or tomorrow. And that's what I was trying to do. And may I say all other foreign affairs ministers were trying to do too. You said that often when he said something rude about someone, someone else had said something rder to him first usually. So what did you say to him to make him call you an imbecile and a parasite? He didn't call me an imbecile and parasite. Did I? Oh, I forgot that. He said he said in an interview he said in an interview he said I believe referring to the foreign ministry that you were part of after he fired you. I'll tell you what, I straight up believe they are traitors to the country. They live in a parasitic life. They are fatally arrogant imbeciles. I don't think that really referred to people in general to people in Well, the interviewer said, "Are you referring to people at the foreign ministry?" Yes. Yes. And he said, "Let me finish my word. Come on, you look at my husband. Let me finish." And he would say about to the ministry because there are rules and there are revolts and there are things that come along and one of the things that he's trying to do is change a lot of things in the government. It is true that some of the people that uh have been working in Argentina now and in the past in the foreign affairs ministry believe that they own the only truth but so does the president and so does everybody else everywhere. Let's talk about the policies. You see he's trying to change the country. The big program that you and him and the government put into place was the economic program. Uh it's been called chainsaw economics by some. Um, it first exacerbated Argentina's recession, pushed up poverty massively, and now, yes, 18 months in, the government you were part of has brought down inflation to be fair. Growth is looking good this year. But I wonder at what cost. Unemployment is up. The value of pensions are down. Public spending has been gutted. People have been protesting in the streets. The inflation rate still remains one of the highest in the world. How is this some historic achievement as Malay likes to claim or the best country in the world as you once predicted it would be to business leaders? One of the things that you have to remember is where we were before and what would have happened. Of course, it's imagination. We don't know what really would have happened if the things kept on going that way. There's absolutely no nonsense in saying you cannot spend more than what you already have. Everybody in this audience cannot spend more than what you have and you cannot keep on doing it for eight decades. So what he has done is stop that. Now whoever was receiving that money out of the sky of course is not happy and what we're the government was trying to do is to split it in an even way or putting the pain where it belongs and that's not easy to get done. And of course every single stabilization program in the world has been coming with a recession. There's less money to spend. If there's less money to spend, someone will sell less things. And not selling enough brings in a recession. But there's no other way of bringing down inflation. The reason it's called chainsaw economics is because your president proudly talks about shutting down government departments, cutting state budgets. Even even Elon Musk now regrets taking that chainsaw from Javier Miller's hand at the CPAC conference in the US. You know what he said? He said, "I shouldn't have done it because it quote lacked empathy." Isn't that the problem that you and Malay look like you don't care about the poorest people in Argentina who are suffering on your watch? I believe you were the richest member of Javier Mle's cabinet. You've not had to the public disclosure suggest that you were the wealthiest member of the cabinet. Mr. the Buenos Times said that you were the wealthiest member with a well maybe the one that declared but I was not the wealthiest but I wish I wish I wish I were. I'm not going to the Buenoser Times said you were the wealthiest. Let's say you were the second wealthiest. you're worth many millions of dollars. You've not had to worry about financial hardship. So, it's easy for you to say we shouldn't spend more. We should make these cuts. But ordinary Argent. Let me put it the other way round. Okay. There's a lot of people suffering right now. They were suffering even more before this government took office. And if you don't fix it, there will be I'm sure you pushed up the suffering last year. Poverty went over 50% in the first six months of last year. Where did you get that figure from? It's called index. It's the National Statistics Agency. I know index. I know. And at least something that can be said in favor of this government is that they are not tweeting the numbers of the previous government. Listen, there are things that are working the way we would want to, which is bringing down the total expenditure by fixing ministries, shutting down any airs. There's a lot of people that have lost their jobs. Private unemployment, you know this, Diana, right? Unemployment is the highest level it's been since 2021. That is not a that is not a successful government. But let's be honest, this is not an economic project. This is an ideological project. Malay is a libertarian. You are all on that side of the spectrum that thinks government is bad. In fact, Malay says, and I quote, "Calling someone who pays taxes a taxpayer is like a rapist calling the woman he rapes a girlfriend." He also said, "The state is a pedophile in a kindergarten with the children chained up and bathed in Vaseline." I think I have to take a shower after reading those quotes out loud. How did you work for this guy? I strongly believe that the only way Argentina can come out of the doldrums that we're in is not spending more than what you selling more things to everybody including the rest of the world. And there's a very justify that attitude that I just read out to you. You just Well, but I'm not going to marry him. I mean, I I don't have to like him. But do you share that view of the state? Of course. No. You don't think the state is a rapist or a pedophile, do you? the Argentine government. I'm not going to say it's the most corrupt in the world because there's a long list that governments are corrupt. But definitely there's a lot of corruption in Argentina. Argentina has had taxes just on the agricultural sector equivalent to two Marshall plants. Where's that money? Where are the roads? Where are the schools? Okay. Where are the hospitals? I'm not here to defend previous governments. Let me ask you, but that's the question. I do want to get to your views. You dodged my question about libertarianism and MLE's view. No, no, I believe in libert liberal governments. I'm not and you do agree with mele on a lot of stuff because for example he promoted this idea of an organ market of buying and selling human body parts. You call that idea fantastic. How is it fantastic or even ethical to bring money and markets into organ donel award people that got that idea? Which Nobel Prize winner was that? Alvin Roth. Alvin Roth. Yeah. Yeah. So we reached out to Alvin Roth before this show and he said his scheme has nothing to do with what Malay is proposing. He doesn't think that at all. I maybe the phrase is it's either misqued. I don't know the phrase. Definitely. I don't know. He proposed a global kidney exchange where people could find it is working in Argentina. We do have a law. Mele wants to people to sell organs and you know very well that just ends up with poor people having to sell their organs to rich people. We have a longstanding we have a long-standing law that allows to exchange organs from one person. You need a a kidney transport. Maybe your wife cannot or will not give you a kidney. Not for money, Diana. You should not be selling organs. You know very well that in that leads to poor people and poor countries. I'm only defending the the law that we already have in Argentina and actually we have a a law called Leina that allows for people to exchange organos in a very different way. Meaning that is So you would you disagree with me on organ sales? Come on. You have to not selling. It's allowing. But Mle wants to sell organs. He says, "I would repeal the ban on organ sales. You have your daughter about to die. She needs to pay for an operation. Someone wants to buy your kidney. You could sell it to them. Do you support that? Yes or no?" I have been through two or three different very personal situations where people had to go through a kidney transplant. One of them was a heartbina whose dad was my student. Okay. And they prepared the law. I'm going to have to ask you to answer the question. Uh there's no money as far as I know included into that. If someone is doing something behind the lines, I am not aware of it. Do you agree with me saying you should be able to sell your kidney? Yes or no? Me? I don't agree with that. Okay, we got there in the end. Let's go to our panel of experts who are because you're twisting the argument. I'm not I read out his words. How am I twisting? I'll read it. Do you want me to read it one more time? No. It's going to get boring. Come on. All right. Yeah. All these people I don't want to read. Let's go to our panel. We've got a couple of economists on our panel tonight. Matias Vaneno is a professor of economics at Butner University. He previously served as senior research manager at the Central Bank of Argentina. Um Matias, you heard Danna say, "What else could we do? Money can't fall out from the skies. You can't buy you can't spend more than you receive." So what would you say as a critic of MLE's economic policies? So first of all, there is an issue that I think it's an important confusion. uh when she says you cannot spend more than you have nobody here can do that you know because we don't have reserves in dollars in the central bank and what we have to pay is the external debt and so what we have is that exports are not sufficient to pay for that because a lot of wealthy people put their money outside of Argentina she might not be the richest person in the cabinet but maybe you know you might have some money outside of Argentina so what do you do what Malay did how did Malay held the the uh economy, the fiscal adjustments and all of those terrible things that you just uh told us about and they are there. So you cannot deny those things. All of those things come from a fiscal adjustment that it's unsustainable because he will have to transfer money to the you know states and the provinces and you know he has to pay the bills eventually and he's not paying several bills but those just gave pain. The stabilization is because he held the exchange rate and he managed to do that because now he has the IMF and holding the exchange rate holds the price of imported goods. you can actually stabilize the economy without without had you come into office in December 2023 instead of Malay and Diana Mandino what would you have made you a priority in government economic what would you have done inheriting this recession 200% inflation what would you have done significant transfers in pesos uh to you know to to the people at the bottom and you need to I I would say something that maybe she agrees higher rates of interest to uh preclude capital flights and renegotiation of the debt. So holding the exchange rate to the extent that's possible that would have allowed the stabilization of the currency and you know and it would have allowed less pain at the bottom. Uh Maxwell Marlo is also here from the Adam Smith Institute here in London. Uh Maxwell unemployment has climbed to a 4-year high in Argentina 7.9%. There are still nearly 18 million people living in poverty. How bad does it need to get before someone like yourself, who I believe is a supporter of the Malay government's economic programs, says, "Actually, this is costing too much in terms of human suffering." I think it's it's a difficult one. I think what ML has been doing is uh as the Bloomberg coverage is labeled shock therapy. We've seen that previously. The Thatcher government very famously did it um after years of what was essentially a terrible terrible couple of decades for the UK. And I think you know the human suffering aspect is very difficult in this aspect. The problem is Mille is so committed to the ideas of economic libertarianism that I think he does flush it out of the window. Are you optimistic about Argentina? I am optimistic. I look reading the IMF report where they have you know permitted 20 billion of credit to flow into um into Benosares they are very confident and we'll probably see 2029 by their estimates GDP per capita rising to about $36,000 per person. I do want to move on to women's rights, but just briefly the question I asked Maxwell, can I ask you? Does a point come when there's so much human suffering, people rumaging through dumpsters, pensioners saying, "I have to choose between eating and paying for my medicines." When you say, "Actually, we got to stop this." Of course, that can happen. Again, I'm not in government. I'm not yet though. You're not there yet. I hope not. I sincerely hope not. And the answer to prevent that is opening up the economy, having trade agreements, exporting more even through lowering taxes or whatever other thing and so that you can have more resources. If you don't have more resources, there's no way for ending poverty or any other ailments Argentina has. Again, the only way to grow is that you have more people able to work either because their education or children are wellnourished. Well, that's something more important. So that's not going well for you. Um, let me ask you about women's rights in Argentina. In January of this year, MLE vowed to remove the concept of femicide from the country's penal code despite the fact that in 2024 there was a femicide in Argentina every 33 hours. There have been 103 victims of femicide this year in Argentina. He also dissolved the Ministry of Women, gender, and diversity and made significant cuts to support for domestic violence victims. How are you okay with that, Diana? as an Argentine woman when you see how those things work. I mean the number the name of course I agree with it when the name of this femicid etc. But when you look at what is being considered as a feminism in Argentina and the way it works then you start having a lot of problems. Now if a lady for example is run over by a bus is it a femicite? No. Well there you go. But 103 people have been killed in what the government says and there's a lot of there should be I hope there is a lot of protection for those people. There is It came from the Ministry of Women, Gender and Diversity that helped 1.5 million people dealing with gender violence. Malays shut it down. Yes, there were,200 people apparently taking a salary there. Not much more efficient as far as I know. And whatever their Why shut down a ministry that's devoted to helping victims of domestic violence? You're transferring their responsibilities somewhere else. Actually, if you consider that it's not the only ministry that was shut down. There were 22 ministry and now we're eight online. So, responsibilities are being transferred to the Ministry of Justice. The way that you change the name is not necessarily. So, you don't think Mele has a problem with supporting victims of domestic violence? I hope not. I'm just wondering since we began this discussion, you say, "I disagree. I'm not in the government, but you will not say one word of criticism against Javier Miller." This is a man This is a man who said to a female journalist, "I'll take out a 9mm gun and put it to your head." He said to another female journalist, "She's a donkey." Did he call you names as well? No, never. Never. So, just other women. Probably younger and nicer. You were going to say that later. I didn't say a word about younger. I'm just wondering why you're defending a misogynist. Because my mom taught me what my grandmother taught her. Okay. That you have to discuss ideas and not people. How is an idea to call a female journalist a donkey? What idea was he expressing? No. What is an idea is that you have to you're very facitious. That's why he's such a great journalist. It's not facious at all. No, that's could I say you're being facicious by quoting some uh you know family anecdote. Let's bring in our third expert on the panel who's been waiting patiently. Martino Rodriguez is a member of the Argentine Solidarity Campaign and the Feminist Assembly of Latin Americans. She's a founder of Nuna Menos UK. Uh Martina, can you I believe you came back from Argentina uh not long ago. What is the situation when it comes to women's rights to protection of women in Argentina under the Malay government right now in your opinion? I mean it's appalling and I think there is a programmatic anti-feminist agenda which the president himself boasts about. He went on to say that um he's proudly anti-feminist and that feminism has ruined um western civilization and the economy and progress. Then the the government uh shuts down the ministry of women um genders and and not only that as medie said then we have the government cutting 90% of the attention to women who are suffering gender-based violence and the help line is being cut 50%. There's there's a sort of mix of economics with cultural wars happening at the same time. So the ide the ideology of the president is having an impact in their material lives and I just want to say that 60% of poor people are women. So when MLE says that you know feminism has nothing to do with the economy we do have a lot to say about the economy. Yeah. Martina mentions the culture war I just want to throw in extra. She mentioned culture war. This is a culture war right. I mean you yourself have been part of that. She mentioned feminism. I believe you in the past you in the past have described feminism as a satanic cult. Me? Yeah. you well maybe I will start growing corns ah I mean January 2023 it's on Twitter you can go check we did okay let me go back one of thing is how you call things whether we do have a minister that whose responsibility has been transferred to the ministry of justice we have abortion law probably one of the earliest countries we have voting rights for Argentina for the last what 60 70 years do you want to specifically respond to what No no no what the kind of things that we are worried about now talking about women's right I would really like to see what is it that is not being addressed right now the fact that we have let come in briefly because we're over briefly what is not being addressed right now there's many things that are not being addressed but an example as I just said they cut the help line it's been cut 50% we're not doing anything because the the support for for women that suffer gender based violence I gave a specific example. It's not that I want to answer. I would not know the details. But if the you have to look into what the level of occupation of that line was, whether it's too much, too little, I don't know. I do want to ask you about MLE's foreign policy, which seems to be based around blowing up Argentina's traditional alliances. Uh when he was campaigning for president, he called Brazilian President Lula an angry communist. Uh he labeled Colombia's President Gustavo Petro a murderist terrorist. He fired you for voting against the US embargo on Cuba, which is a historic Argentine Latin American position. He said his foreign policy goal is to align with the US and Israel. So far tonight, you've defended his economic policies, his gender policies. Surely, surely you don't defend his foreign policy too, do you? Actually, it was an integral part of the foreign policy. So, I should be talking about that in detail and hopefully defend what we have done. The fact that he called somewhat names, I I can vouch and I can be sure and you can really find information about that that we were okay with were okay with Brazil in a number of issues. The re the really relevant issues like immigration, education, trade, etc. We are very much in agreement even though our leaders don't like each other. Now, my job was to make sure that the relationship in the private sector and in the rest of the public sector kept on working fine. And I think we succeeded reasonably well in in maintaining those kind of relationship. Last question before I go to the break. A lot of people look at Malay and they see Netanyahu and Orban and Putin and Trump and Maloney and they see this kind of global authoritarian alliance. People who aren't really interested in liberal democracy. What's your response to people who say that that trade is the solution to all those problems. It's the answer for growth and it's the answer for education and health. Otherwise you can have no resources and no possibilities of exchange with anybody. That's the only place where you can work. And what you have to consider okay there are tradeoffs all the time. I have to consider this or the other. We have to choose between two evils. Which one will help me export more? Which one will help me be friendlier to another country? How do I decide on education policies if I cannot have students from another country? That is the reason why you may have a cultural war on other stuff. You may have decisions on other thing. But if you don't have that kind of agreement, okay, that is not going to be growth. Tiana Mando, we're gonna have to take a break right now. We've covered a lot in this part with our panel and with you. In part two of head-to-head, we'll hear from our very patient audience here in London's Conway Hall. We'll also be talking about President Malay's very particular style of leadership. Don't go away. [Applause] Welcome back to Headto Head on Alazer English. My guest today is Danna Mandino who served as foreign minister under President Javier Mle of Argentina for the first year of his government. Diana, you and I have talked about a little bit about foreign policy, women's rights, the economy, all big issues. But the biggest issue surely is Mr. Malay himself. He is a interesting character. I know you don't you told me in part one you you and your mother and your grandmother don't want to talk about individuals but we really do we really really do need to talk about President Malay's state of mind. I have to ask Mille in his speeches, Diana often thanks his advisers, Conan, Murray, Milton, Robert, and Lucas. Except these aren't actual people. They are his dogs. In fact, they are his dead dog, plus his dead dogs, clones, who he apparently seeks counsel from on matters of government policy. When you were foreign minister, did he take more advice from you or his dogs? Actually since I was working on foreign trade agreements no one gave me any kind of advice because we had to work with Merkosur and that's how we finally finalized the finally finalized the Merkosur European Union agreement the EFA agreement they're both have already in the in the works UAE which are in the work maybe someday we will get with the United Kingdom those are the things that nobody would give any kind of advice or because it's something from Merkosur and all for four foreign affairs minister were working together plus Bolivia sometimes which is the fifth so I wouldn't know about that he would not give me any kind of advice but you know about this this Malay council of advisers I mean one biography of Malay is called Elco the mad man and it says that Malay believes it was a telepathic conversation with his late dog Conan who's dead and he cloned the other dogs off of that relayed God's message for him to become president of Argentina and that he still communicates with the dead dog Conan through a mystic which by the way, Malay was asked twice about in two separate media interviews. Refuse to deny that he does this. You've been defending this man's policies tonight. A man you used to work for. He does sound a lot like to the rest of us a madman. I've seen the dogs twice. I didn't count them because they're really big and I'm not really like doggy person. So, but I've seen them. Uh but his state of mind, this is not a wellman. Let me put it the other way round. Okay, let's say he is, as you're saying, let's say everything that everybody's saying is true and there are much uglier things that are being said about him. Let's say all that is true. Would that change the policies? Would that change what she's trying to envision? Why would they people that had voted for him and his idea and still support him and may or may not in October vote even more for this idea? You don't think mental fitness matters when it comes to a leader of a country? It is extremely relevant and I would beg you to mention a leader, one of the big leaders in Argent in the world right now who would not have some sort of let's say narcissism. No, no, you're right about that. But I could turn it around and say, can you name a world leader who consults his dogs on policy issues? Maybe they have a cat. I mean, let's be serious. Carlos Rodriguez was an adviser to the Malay campaign and he was my Carlos Rodriguez was my boss for 25 years. Okay, then so let's talk about a very good friend. a serious figure, friend of yours. This is what he says after Mille took office. He quit the Council of Economic Advisors. He said, "The mental imbalance of Malay became much more ev evident. Insults, bizarre facial gestures, arbitrary firings, unnecessary fights, an army of trolls, dogs in heaven." Does this sound like a mentally stable leader to you? Because Carlos Rodigo said, "I can't work with this guy." Let's say that everything is true. If it were true, why do hypotheticals? I'm asking your actual view. You worked with him. People here want to hear you. I work with both of them. Mele and Carlos. Who's right? Carlos Rodrigo Javier Mle. I have to say that Carlos is always right. Okay. So, he has got a mental imbalance that's in I cannot say that. I would like Why? Why can't you say that? Are you afraid of me? Of course not. So, why can't you say it? Why would I be afraid of anybody? I'm not in government anymore. You You're avoiding very simple questions. I'm telling you he consulted with dogs. Malay hasn't denied this. You're not denying it. You're just saying, "Well, other leaders are asking." You're not asking the relevant questions. I mean, I'll decide what's relevant. It's my show. Exactly. It's your show and I and I have the right to answer whether I like it or not. Okay, fair point. Uh, last question before I go back to our panel. He said a lot of crazy things that you as foreign minister probably had to defend or shrug your shoulders for. Over the years, Malay has repeatedly attacked the late Pope Francis. He equated him with evil for his support for social justice. He accused him of sympathizing with quote murderous communists. He called the late pope a piece of You're Catholic. Do you believe that Pope Francis was quote an imbecile or quote the representative of evil on earth to quote your former boss? I'm using some benito medal. Is that a good answer? No. Do you agree with mele? No. What did you Why would he call the pope the representative of evil on earth? What's wrong with this man? Which one? Mele. I like Pope Francis. Okay. Me too. Uh the question here you you like Pope Francis when you heard him say that. What did you think? Did you not get angry? I I was very happy that I would not have to talk to Mr. Parolene explaining what we were doing. Perolin is the foreign affairs minister of the Vatican. Not my question. Why did he call him that? And what was your I asked him how why he called him. I don't agree with that. Were you upset when he said it? I think for the Catholic population in Argentina which is the majority even though we are interdenominational country with lots of religions. I think it's kind of offensive. Having said that, oh, finally got heart got we got something of an answer out there. I'm going to I'm going to take that as a win and go to our panel of experts who are waiting patiently to come in. You will not finish. Okay. Matias Vaneno, I asked you the question four times. Uh is a professor of economics at Butner University, previously served as senior research manager at the Central Bank of Argentina. Uh Matias, we've been talking about Malay's fitness for office, his obsession with cloning dogs, attacks on the Pope, etc. Is this a sane person? And to take Diana's point, does it matter if Argentina is doing fine and the people like him? So I I have a friend that says, "I talked to my dog, too, but I don't expect a reply." Uh, so I I don't think he's fit. I think it's very clear that he's unstable. There are many other stories that speak to the fact that he is an unstable person. I think that part of the problems that Argentina have are that people have to come around and trying to make things work because he is very unstable. He, for example, I think more into the economic area. He called China and all communist countries, you know, the devil and I'll never trade with them. But last summer it was China and the swaps that allowed Argentina to maintain the exchange rate and stabilize. I negotiated that swap. Fair enough. But but the point is you had to go around because he's unstable and he fired you for something that you know made little sense that was discussed here before. So he is unstable. He pushes away people that may have, you know, sane solutions to problems. And I think it is a problem to have somebody unstable and unfit to to, you know, be in office. Maxwell Marlo is here for the Adam Smith Institute in London. Maxwell, I believe you've actually spoken to Malay. Um, is he crazy or is he just saying crazy stuff to get attention Boris Johnson style? I I I will caveat that by saying it was a very short conversation. We were inviting him to London to speak because we want to kind of see Elco in person. Um I you know the reason he doesn't brush his hair is because he believes the invisible hand, Adam Smith's invisible hand brushes it for him. Um you know he says some pretty mad stuff. Adam Smith himself was was pretty mad. He famously put his socks in his teapot and tried to serve himself tea. There are mad insane people out there and we can look back at the announcement where you know Mille gets a lot of ideas from some pretty mad people there too. I think he takes inspiration from those sorts of people. But I think I think it speaks wider to the kind of new age of politics we're in where world leaders are able to say some pretty mad stuff and to try and get away with it. And I think a lot of it is to do with the tension. Do I think he's unstable? Yes, I think he is unstable. But if he is delivering for Argentina, which I think he is, I think the economy, you know, is getting back on course and it is stabilizing. You know, I don't and his popularity rate, by the way, is doing quite well as well. I think it's okay. Um, is it okay for your job, you know, being the head the head of the diplomatic service? Not so much. which is difficult for you, but I think for everyone else, it's good headlines and it's good popularity ratings for him. On that note, it's not all just haha funny. He says crazy things, his hair is not combed. He also says a lot of extreme bigoted things about minority groups, about LGBTQ Argentines, and it's not just Malay, Diana, in November 2023, you stated that you support marriage equality in theory, but then you said it was akin to having lice. You said, quote, "If you prefer not, you too, Brutus." I mean, you said, quote, "If you prefer not to bathe, then be full of lice, and it is your choice. That's it. Don't complain later if there's someone who doesn't like that you have lice. Isn't that the kind of language is not helpful? In a threeinut long phrase where we put an a lot of examples and the last one was the li. So whoever did this of putting together the homosexual thing and the other and the person I was talking to he's actually married to another gentleman and I know him and we're good friends. So that is not you were not referring to gay couples. We were talking about people being responsible for the decisions. Okay. But you were criticized, you know this heavily for this quote. I was heavily criticized for that. I was heavily criticized for something about retired people which I never said. And so there are things that people will twist them because of politics or they will just trim the phrase. But what you have to do is understand and the whole is let's say one person three persons in cabinet do or do not like dogs or LGBT people. That does not change the society in Argentina. We're a multicultural society where sorry it's important. Argentina has not had any kind of religious issues ever, but it does have a lot of anti-LGBTQ violence. A lot of gay people have been attacked. I do want to bring in uh Martina, who's here, Rodriguez, from the member of the Argentina Solidarity Campaign and the Feminist Assembly of Latin Americans. Martina, in part one, we spoke about women's rights uh in Argentina, but LGBTQ rights haven't fared so well either under the MLE presidency. He has made some explicitly uh uh bigoted remarks about gay people, trans people etc. Um again where do you see the situation now far when it comes to minority groups gay people but not just gay people minorities across the board. I think minorities across the board you can't say that hate hate speech doesn't have an impact in the lives of people and MLE has said that gays are pedophiles and that is a hate speech and hate speech has a complete correlation with MLE's authoritarian repression that bashes pensioners every Wednesday and that nearly killed a John a journalist um who was taking photos in a in a pensionist protest. This is a package of you know you say that his u speech doesn't matter what he says doesn't matter but he's persecuting personally journalists who oppose his policies. Julia Mingolini has been targeted by him. He tweeted 90 times in two days and he sent his troll militia to share an AI video of her having sex with her brother and it was fake by the way of course and now she and a lot of journalists are are suing him because his policies are authoritarian and sorry one last thing it's really funny that is the party of freedom that you only have the freedom to hate minorities but not to criticize the government. Before I go to the audience, Maxwell, I do want to ask you one quick question. As someone who's from the Adam Smith Institute supports free markets, is there a contradiction right now in the world where a lot of the leaders who are being praised on free markets, whether it's a Donald Trump or a Javier Mle or a Victor Orban? Also politically are quite repressive as Martino was just laying out. They're very anti-free press etc. I wouldn't call Donald Trump pro- free trade. I've been on the airwaves quite a lot criticizing his tariffs for example and he's, you know, he's not great there. I I think I I mean I've got a lapel pin on which Mille wears actually it's from students for liberty which is an organization I I was at when I was um at university and it's a big question we ask ourselves which is yes he's correct in his you know economic policy but you know where's his understanding of for example you know free speech or you know trying to get a first amendment through for example for Argentina it's a big question for us but I think to answer your question directly know it's a very difficult time you know for free markets especially in the UK we have trust for example trying to push through dealing with that political realism is a big question that a lot of us libertarians have had to deal with. Um let's go to our audience here at London's Conway Hall who've been waiting very patiently to come in. Gentleman in the green shirt, can we get a microphone to him? Yeah. Um my question for Diana is um how can you still identify with a political party and a government uh that has sympathized with the perpetrators of crimes against humanity in the in the last dictatorship in Argentina. um has has cut funding for the organizations that have document documented the human rights abuses and has attacked the human rights organizes organizations that have defended the victims. Who says I I I'm not a member of the party. You've defended the vice president who I think you're referring to if I'm correct me if I'm wrong. The vice president of Argentina has made comments that have been very controversial about Videla. I think she went to visit the late dictator in prison and you spoke out in her defense. We have very different views with Ria Roy about Malvvenas for example. Why do we have to agree on 100% of everything? I I know I'm from Cordova where the dictatorship acted in a very different way than in other countries and I I do not agree with neither what happened to bring in the terrorism nor what happened to stop terrorism. Neither of that none of those things should happen. You like Malay deny that 30,000 people were killed in the dictatorship. He denied. Yes. And lots of people deny that there's been 30,000 people. Actually, the only document that we have says that the only document that we have is under is 9,000 people 30,000 and people were the the friends and family of the people that were killed got paid. If some people did not go and collect the money, that's it does not mean that they didn't exist. But it's very hard to come up with that number and it's on the record someone that says but we also have a law in Argentina that says you cannot deny that number. So my views are not relevant. It says a law which I may or may not agree with but we have to abide with it. Martinez keep coming briefly. Martina but the reason that we don't have the official numbers is because the dictatorship and the military could won't share the numbers and that's why we don't have them. If if they did please share all the information if they share the information destroyed them. But but it's Yeah. So that's a it's a false comparison. I think this is a firing squad. I I was in school when that happened. You weren't even born when that happened. I left the country when that happened. My parents Exactly. And so those things were terrible in a in a in a in a society that was torn apart that's still today being torn apart through that. And the only thing we can do is look into the future and say punish those who made something stupid. something that far more worse than being stupid that killed people in the most horrible way. Punish those people. Is it helpful for the vice president to call it a human rights scam? That's her view. I don't agree with her view. Why should I agree? She's on the record. That's why you have defended it in the past. I have defended the role that vice president, any vice president in Argentina has. Let's go back to the audience. Say someone at the back. Gentlemen there in the black t-shirt in the back half of the hall. There's been a lot of talk about uh MLE's economic policies and how competent he is and and belief from some of the panelists that he's got sound economic policies. Um recently he tweeted about a crypto coin which a lot of people invested in which turned out to be a pump and dump scam and lost investors millions of dollars and he's recently been cleared by his anti-corruption chief which he had himself appointed. Convenient. How can we really say that this guy has sound economic policies and we can trust him when it seems like corruption is endemic to his government? You can I can add to that question whether you can see he's a economic genius if he doesn't understand something as clever as that. But my whole point and I'm trying to convey that Argentina has to whole country needs to understand that we are on a different way whether Malaya is tomorrow hopefully not or or whoever comes into govern we have set up certain rules that will be guiding the problem the mercosur agreement with EU has three different parts I love talking about the bus because it's going to change our but the question was about the pump and dump scheme from Javier Malay when earlier this year where people I think $250 million vanished. Diana, you brought up corruption. I didn't at the start of this show. Exactly. Is he a corrupt president? I hope not. And if he is, he will he will have to go to jail one day. Well, there are lots of lawsuits being put against him both in Argentina and in New York courts. And if it's true, what do you think, Diana? I'd love to hear your view. I will tell you my view. And later, please let me tell people that Merosur agreement with EU will change Argentina. Great because you will have to play this game. No, because the justice Do you believe that Javier Malay should have tweeted a link to a cryptocurrency? No, he should not have linked that. You think he did it? I think someone told him about that. He thought it was a good idea. Somebody made money out of this. $250 million van. Exactly. Exactly. So, there's two possibilities. He's either not very smart or he was some sort of corrupt. You choose. I don't know. I think I I think I can speak for the audience when I say, "Wow, that is the first time tonight Diana Mandino says Mille is either corrupt or stupid." No, that's what you said. You said it. I heard you say it. No. If you're watching on YouTube, roll back. No, you're you're good. And I know that will happen in Argentina in a few weeks. But people will cut that little piece of damino that and they will stop. Same as with the last thing, etc. You said you said he's either corrupt. You choose. You can decide on that. But you only gave me two choices. Corrupt or stupid. I can give you the two choices. Yes. But there wasn't a third choice. Am I always the the right person to know about that? What I can tell you if you want to export wine to the Switzerland, you will have lower tax. That thing I don't know. Okay. But he's either corrupt or stupid. That was the choice you gave me. Okay. Again, sorry guys when you hear that about little fragment going on in the theater. Let me say that I tried to added something to it. Okay. Uh let's go back to the audience. I promised this lady here would get a question. Get your microphone to her. It's nice and close to your mouth. As an American college student, I witnessed police arrest classmates simply for peacefully protesting our university's ties to Israel. and I'm concerned for the global crackdown on free expression and assembly. How does Argentina justify its own response to pro Palestine protests? As far as I know, there's have been no difficulties with that in Argentina. Neither arrest, not very strong protests. There have been protests of course, but I don't think there were any arrests in Argentina. Must have been only in America. What about the broader point about free expression? There have been crackdowns on protests in Argentina. That's undeniable. Oh yes. Yeah, that there have been. How did you feel about that in government? Mele came in very strong libertarian except a few protests. Very strong and we cannot say the date but a few days ago there's been a a new decree uh talking about whether um social networks will be policed or not and what subjects etc. And so people say oh they're going to crack down on on free expression and people say no it's for terrorism. I don't know has just gone through through the total legal process. Now, if that happens in Argentina, it would be extremely terrible. I was going to say regrettable, but it it's far worse than that. If Argentina is on a is drifting to towards authoritarianism because of the personality of the president or because any other reason, that would be regrettable. All I'm going trying to say is that it's not yet there though a lot of people see that as almost a certainty. Okay. So, let's go to another lady. Let's go to the woman here at the front. Um now you are aware that uh President Mle's um decision to appoint two justices um to the Supreme Court in Argentina by decree was seriously um criticized by the UN special reperator on fre on um the uh independence of judges and lawyers. Um, is this a threat to the rule of law, the circumventing of the constitution and processes established in law to appoint judges? I I try to make it a short answer, but it's difficult. That has happened more than once in Argentina. Unfortunately, it was not gone through Congress. Was this was this precisely that that precise recent attempt to appoint judges by decree which was criticized correct or do you agree with the special reporter? I'm not a lawyer. Everybody objected to that. So with my little scant knowledge I agree with disagreeing that it should never have happened. Congress did not let it go through and the fact that we still have separation of powers. So that the Congress said no way. So that would show that still today Argentina institutions work. Diana I appreciate I appreciate the Congress did its job and blocked it. That's not the point though. The point is why is Malay doing it? Isn't that authoritarian forever? Because because he has an authoritarian mindset and because it happened with the Christian it's happened with me with men. It happened before. That should never ever happen again. Gentlemen, I promised the last word too. Uh my question is um how do you expect people to believe you after uh you don't recognize or you don't remember the president calling you parasitic, unforgivable or all the other horrible stuff that he me uh he said to you. Thank you. What I can say is my work was focused on one particular thing that I hope will keep Argentina on a steady growth path. The economic policy hopefully will appease inflation. The social policy hopefully will help in health and education particularly for children. Eventually hopefully retirement h payments will be higher. If I have been called names I don't have any grudges. I want Argentina to be a better world. As you mentioned I have a reasonable net worth not the wealthiest one. I have two grandchildren. I wanted them to grow in Argentina. I want them to be happy children and they do not have to live as many people as Matias mentioned have to live in the past in Argentina. If all we're trying to s is look for the perfect guy who combs his hair rather than the crazy thing he does who will wear a nice tie rather than the one he does and we are waiting for everything to be perfect. It will not happen. If you're waiting for something like that to be your spouse, it will not happen. No one is perfect. Argentina has an opportunity. Let's not squander it. On that note, Diana Mandino, thank you so much for coming all the way here from Argentina to do this head-to-head in London. Thank you to our audience in London's Conway Hall. Thank you to our panel of experts for their contributions. And thank you to you all at home for watching head-to-head on Alazer English. We'll be back soon. [Applause]