it's my absolute pleasure to be here with Brett uh as we all know we are living in a highly polarized time where even the topic of democracy has become a highly divisive issue I also believe that there's this uh pernicious sentiment both in the US and globally that democracy is only functional when we agree in fact what democracy requires us is to continually live with our differences and manage those differences for the collective good we won't always have consensus but we will always need to productively manage our differences I also believe that in an inclusive democracy we need systems and norms and a culture that supports vibrant multiethnic multi-racial multi-religious society as well as ideological diversity among many things this requires us to be Adept at having difficult conversations and and also to listen when we disagree so Brett and I come to the stage with very different life experiences uh but we also have lot a lot in common uh we both have lived in different cultures we're M multilingual and more Salient for this conversation we both believe that we have a crisis of democracy but we're also hopeful we believe that we collectively uh not only can defend democracy but also straighten it to become more pluralistic so Brett I'm excited to be in this conversation with you and and would love to start with a more personal question I know both of us draw inspiration from our life experiences and I know you're passionate about democracy but where does that come from what in your background makes you passionate about democracy and why are you worried I think a lot has to do with my background um in 1917 my great grandparents were living in Moscow uh and there was a brief experiment with democracy between March and October of that year it ended badly my great-grandfather was arrested uh and he disappeared and it sent my great grandm mother and her four children into Exile they ended up in Germany uh up until 1933 when uh the rise of Adolf Hitler sent them into Exile again they were a Jewish Family they went to Italy um where my mother was born my mother was born and spent the first 5 years as a uh hidden child in Nazi occupied Europe and then her next five years um as a stateless person a person without a past Sport and it was only because uh Harry Truman pushed through uh the displaced persons act uh in the late 1940s that my mother was able to arrive here with $7 as a refugee so the idea of the open Society um is not an abstraction uh for my family and I think for so many of us who have um immigrant Roots we feel that very strongly that that this idea of a of an open Society is actually a rare and and a precious one and it's one that we really have to um invest in in defending because if it goes there's not a place for uh People Like Us people from Minority backgrounds people who have been um traditionally uh uh persecuted I also spent my early years uh in Mexico City when it was a essentially an authoritarian Society so I get in my bones the difference between what an open so Society is what a close Society is and how easy it is for the former to slip into becoming the latter and I think that's what we're seeing all over the world right so the Renown and tank International idea released a report recently saying that democracy is continuing to deteriorate in every part of the world what do you think is driving that problem like how are you making sense of this moment I came of age uh with the end of the Cold War I turned 18 uh just before the Soviet Union uh collapsed and I remember that incredible optimism that people felt in the 1990s that democracy was the future that we had reached uh the end of History turns out it was a a terrible way of thinking about the world not least because it made us complacent about what it means to sustain a democracy democracy isn't just a kind of a a mechanical system that kind of works miraculously by itself without people investing energy ideas and a willing to reform and uh adapt to make it thrive in the last I think 20 years there's a sense that democracy isn't performing a series of functions that it was intended to perform in terms of uh economic growth in terms of uh inclusion in terms of upward uh Mobility people look at other systems and they say well that's that's more efficient that that gets things done and it is absolutely the case that if you look at many of the so-called Advanced uh democracies they have not been providing uh as they had promised uh to provide economic growth stagnant particularly in much of of Europe a sense that people are dividing increasingly into uh classes and that Elites have become self-dealing that we perpetuate A system that is for the benefit I'm speaking as an elite now for the benefit of our kids at the expense of other people's kid and I think that has that explains the moment of populist uh populism and a kind of authoritarianism that has crept into so much of our discourse here in the United States and and throughout the world people are starting to say well maybe that's that's a model we we would do well to remember that democracy has previously fallen into these crises but at our best we have been able to reform whether it was the reforms of the 1930s of the new deal going back to the Progressive Era of people like uh Teddy Roosevelt emerging from from the guilded age this is a pattern in in in history but it doesn't mean that we're faded to overcome the challenges we have now if we don't put our shoulders to the proverbial wheel we are going to end up moving towards a Hungarian style system or perhaps even worse I want to double click on your point around uh disillusionment coming from democracy not delivering on it its econom promises right and and some people would argue that perhaps there's another compelling alternative that is offered by China right and so how would you respond to that uh what what would you say to people who say that actually democracy has not been working for me so I I I think this is one of the great debates that's going to define the 21st century does the Chinese model at least at its quote Best of efficient authoritarianism is that a superior model for providing more Goods to more people more satisfaction than our democratic system of compromises and bureaucracy and things taking a long time and I've I've consistently made the argument that as problematic as democracy often is it is a vastly preferable solution to the Chinese solution and and for for a couple of of of reasons the first is that authoritarian systems like China are very good at advertising their strengths and hiding their weaknesses democracy almost by its nature is constantly advertising its weakness but it's hiding its strengths even even to itself so that we're sort of constantly surprised when we somehow emerge stronger than some of our adversaries if you look back to the 1970s was a period of real uh disillusionment and doubt about the future of democracy but it was in the 1970s that some guy named Steve Jobs was kind of tinkering in you know in a garage somewhere or Bill Gates all these people who have really defined the decades to come were in obscurity we just didn't we just didn't know about this so when China advertises its strengths when it looks strong on the one hand it appears to be fearsome on the other hand there are fewer mechanisms in China that are self-correcting mechanisms if the leader in China uh X says we're going to invest a trillion dollars in a belt and Road initiative no one disputes that no one asks questions about it turns out it was trillion dollar uh bad bad investment for China in the end the one advantage democracies have is that we we Bend and we adapt but authoritarian systems are brittle they're like glass so when they begin to break they can very quickly shatter and I think that's one of the lessons that I draw from the 1980s early 1980s the Soviet Union looked strong and it was on the ground with by by the end of the decade again because it is hiding its weaknesses advertising its strengths we're we're on the other side we may surprise ourselves by how resilient and adaptable we might be I love that and and I think you also spoke to the messaging problem that we have on the on the pro democracy front and obviously the media plays a huge role in that and you're a journalist and we know that from all of the latest trust metrics that the media is one of the least trusted institutions next to governments globally and so in this moment when we're having a crisis in our information ecosystem how do you think the media needs to evolve first and foremost to to gain trust or regain trust uh and then secondly to protect democracy and and be a champion for democracy in the ways that you're talking about look I think the best way the media can protect democracy is if it should stay in its Lane which is to say you want your liver to perform the functions of a liver not the functions of a heart everything has has its place so that when too much of the media goes into the mold of uh effectively social advocacy it is eroding uh trust particularly among people who don't necessarily agree with that a given type of of social advocacy you know back in the 1960s there we had a flawed system but when Walter kronite would say and that's the way it was this day I don't know March 15th 1966 America went yeah um and there was a sense of authority I think one of the ways in which the media has hurt itself is that it has we have allowed it we I'm part of it we have allowed that sense of authority to uh to dissolve now part of it has to do with new technologies social media the diversification of the media ecosystem cable news you can talk about lots of exogenous reasons why trust in the media has has uh eroded but I kind of tend to think of of you know physician heal thyself those of us who are in the mainstream media really need to reflect in a in a deep way as to why so many segments of American society have stopped trusting us and part of the answer I think is that we have given them reasons uh not not to trust us it's in incredibly important that the media include a much greater amount of diversity within its ranks and I don't just mean diversity of race and ethnicity those things are obviously important I also mean diversity of class of geographic location if you don't have reporters who kind of grew up in wherever Branson Missouri or or or what here in New York we call fly over country you're missing a big part of the story you may have missed how it is that this guy with no hope of becoming president in 2016 became president in 2016 so we have to be listening to those voices particularly the ones that we disdain dislike don't think are worthy of of inclusion the media cannot be an echo chamber if that's what we end up becoming we will deserve ourselves we will deserve democracy we'll deserve even our own business model because at the end of the day if people don't trust us they're not going to turn to us I really appreciate that so we talked about what you think needs to be done in media there are a lot of people who wake up and who don't think about these issues right what do Ordinary People need to do in this moment to contribute to a healthier more inclusive democracy what are you seeing Solutions exciting Solutions in your community or from you know your work across the world like what are some suggestions do you have for what we could do as individuals look it begins with us it begins with each of you and I I tend to be wary of like coming up with a grand scheme start your day by reading someone you know you're going to disagree with the worst that can happen is it will sharpen your own argument right you will at least know what your ideological opponent or maybe even your enemy uh as you as you perceive that person to be is is thinking it doesn't hurt you your your media diet should not be a Mourning massage where you have your personal genius affirmed because you're taking in the views of someone who thinks as you do but just says it a little bit better and I try to do this I people know that I'm a center right uh columnist look I work at the New York Times I just open up my own paper and I'm starting to read people I don't agree with it's good for me it's good for me it sharpens my arguments when I read my friend Nick Kristoff in the morning or when I have a conversation with my buddy Gil Collins it's forcing me to think it's like jumping into cold water not always iMed complely pleasant but bracing and invigorating and we have to find all kinds of mechanisms in our lives in which we make the art of disagreement come alive um debate is something that I I really believe in also as a great exercise for for kids but at every level of of discussion figuring out how we once again find ways to disagree agreeably to find light rather than Fric just friction and heat from those uh moments of disagreement to understand what the other person is saying or even trying to say because a lot of times you will encounter an opposing point of view and that person isn't necessarily expressing him or herself well so the art of disagreement is also the art of listening MH um and I this is ironic for me to say cuz here I'm doing all the talking right but that art of listening is is every bit as as vital to the to the health of democracy um in fact more so than than than all the talking so listen attentively think before you speak enjoy difference and democracy will become stronger well that's a powerful way to end this conversation thank you so much Brett thank you