When I sold the business, I thought, "What am I going to do with all this money? I don't want my kids to have it, that's for sure." You might not have heard of John Cordwell, but the boy from Stafford practically built the UK's mobile phone industry. Seeing my shares worth a billion, two billion, three billion. Can you tell us about the first time you saw a mobile phone? People thought you'd gone a bit cuckoo, you know, what's he talking about? It took me two weeks to find anybody that knew of anybody who could sell me a mobile phone. He's built an empire. We're not entitled to money. We're not entitled to health. We get what we're given. Predicted recessions. 2002. I forecast a massive recession in the UK economy. I said to Kia Starmer a few months ago, turned down the apprentice. They tried to get me to do the apprentice and threatened me with Allan Sugar when I kept being demanding. Have you ever thought about standing? I don't think I'm woke enough. Now he's got lessons every entrepreneur should hear. Advice that you should absolutely follow as near to the letter as possible and that is to people that don't follow that leave themselves vulnerable to catastrophic. So what are you doing this podcast? Well, it's going to be profitable because the fee that you're paying me is so huge. It's going to You'll have to cut that out now. Everybody listen. Make sure you subscribe so we can continue to get bigger and bigger guests. This is the story of the billionaire who wants to rebuild Britain. Well, John, welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. I wanted to ask you uh at the beginning, how has your approach to hiring changed over the years? And when you're hiring for business, do you look for different skills than when you're doing your philanthropy work? I don't think my hiring's changed at all. I uh I had six critical success factors in anybody that was at top level or was deemed to be at top level. It was ambition, drive, passion, resilience, commercial intellect, and leadership. And for the people that I needed, I needed them to have all of those abilities. And that's what I tried to measure. very difficult to measure at interview. But we also uh ran really quite intense three-day courses to uh to give them all sorts of challenges to try and pick out these qualities. But it's a very hitand- miss affair interviewing as you probably realize. Yeah. And how did you sort of increase those chances over the years of hiring somebody good? Because you've clearly got six determinant factors there of what you're looking for. How do you try and sort of well by first of all by a very intense set of interviews. So the first interview would be with my HR director who I actually write set up a recruitment company because we needed so many people because we were recruiting thousands. So we needed our own recruitment company. So we set that up. He would interview them first having been pre-selected by his team. Then they would go on to the department that he would they were going into. I had 20 companies. So the managing director of that company would then interview them with him. Uh then if they got through that, they would go to the next interviewer, which would be my right-hand man who was my group commercial director, and he would sit and it would still be all parties because it has to be because if one person said, "Well, that person's no good." Yeah. You need a debate about why what have you seen? Everybody needs to be on the same page. And finally, if out of a thousand applicants, two or three got through to me, then I it would be my job to try and remove them from the equation. And if I couldn't remove them from the equation, then I'd probably got a pretty decent person. What were your favorite interview questions to ask? Oh, all sorts. If it was a finance director, what was the biggest black hole you ever had on the balance sheet? Yeah. And they, oh, never had one, they'd say. I said, "Oh, no, no, no. That's that's impossible." Did you never overstate? Did you never overstate your sales accidentally? Did you never make a problem on your on your on your balance sheets? Did you never have any mistake at all that was overstating the profitability of your business? No. So then I'd question and then I'd dig and dig and dig and dig and nearly all the time I could I could sort of flush out the the issues and it's quite an interesting intense process. Yeah. And it does I think to the in interviewee it comes across as very aggressive because I'm very hard on them because like I say to them at the end I did I didn't mean to uh wrong foot you or to but this is a really important post. It's very important to you because you don't want to come and fail within months. Yeah. And I can't afford you to fail. So, you'll have to forgive the harshness because that's what's necessary to try and find out if there's a good fit and it's a mutual thing. How many people did phones for you have at its peak? Well, the whole group had 12,000. Yeah. 12,000. Yeah. Where I had 20 companies. They were all mobile phone. Well, you could say they were associated, but they weren't actually in a way because I set up a recruitment company and we started doing recruitment for outsiders as well. We we needed security because we got tens of millions of pounds worth of mobile phones in stock. So we had our own security, but I turned that into a company and did security for other people. We did we had huge warehousing. I turned that into a business doing warehouse facilities management for other people. So each business was associated and came about as a result of the mobile phone industry, the core business, but then I tried to make each one into a profit center. Um, and what how did you hire those first few people when you Oh, it was difficult. You know, when I when I was sitting there, one man and and his dog. Yeah. I didn't have the dog, incidentally. It was just me. And, you know, I'd sit there trying to drive the business forward and then you start recruiting one or two. Yeah. And you get one or two salesmen and you don't get anybody that's any good because firstly anyway, most salesmen are not good. you know, they're just not, you know, but I'm looking always for the top 10% of any individual in any discipline whatsoever. So, what's the chances that little JC sitting there in a room trying to recruit some salespeople and he's got no infrastructure, nothing is going to get the best salesman? Very, very little. So, it's an evolution process, but as you grow, yeah, you get the ability to command more respect and to have people applying for jobs. But it was a baptism by fire. It really was. You know, growing from that one person to 12,000 had the most enormous sets of challenges right the way through from the recruitment challenge that I've just mentioned to taking on new premises. And you take on new premises and all of a sudden your overheads flip through the roof. Yeah. You know, and you've got to try and integrate that new premises into your old premises. You've got all that extra cost. So, I used to try and saturate my all of my buildings, saturate them, oversaturate them to the point that it wasn't actually very uh employee friendly. It wasn't very, it was dynamic and buzzing, but it wasn't a proper environment. But then I'd take on a new premises, some of those people would move over and it all became calm again until the next few hundred people came in and then on and on it went. and where what made a good phones for you store location-wise? Oh, that's a good question. You know, it was very difficult to tell, but first of all, you do want a lot of footfall. And what we found over a period of time is we needed the right demographics. So, for instance, we had a lovely shop in Bath. Mhm. Bath's a very well-healed city in in the UK. Um, and it should have been very successful, but I think the slightly gimmicky phones for you brand. Yeah. And young salespeople and we were aiming for the 18 to30s age category. I think it just didn't quite work and Bath and we persevered with it too long really. We persevered with it because it was a wealthy area. We should have been able to be successful in it, but I I think the fit just didn't work. So, when you're talking about what's the, you know, what's the what's the choice of a of a store, yes, you you you want you absolutely want the location with lots of footfall. Um, you want the city to be reasonably uh reasonably wealthy. Not wealthy, that's the wrong word, but not there needs to be a bit of disposable income in the city. Well, they did in those days. Not now perhaps because everybody's got a phone, you know, but uh in in those days they needed to. So um and then you're looking at other things that are more futuristic like is the is the likely to be a change in planning that suddenly makes the city center dull and lifeless and so you're trying to look into the future as to what might happen as well. How long were you having to take leases on shops for in that was that was a nightmare. That was a nightmare because in those days the mobile phone business was expanding rapidly. Yeah. In in retail and all of the retailers and mainly car phone warehouse were our big competition but all the retailers were trying to get shops. Then Vodafone came in and Orange and and uh and uh Apple. So you got all these competitors competing for leases and I have to say that we drove not we uh just us but the whole mobile phone industry drove the leases up in the UK and that that was really a very negative thing really because it drove property prices up and of course we all knew that online was going to come along and when online came along the property prices were going to deteriorate and lease values would deteriorate. So there was a real from my point of view there was a real real land grab necessity to really get this business fired up making a huge amount of profitability so that I could sell it and sell it before it hit the peak. Yeah. Um recently on one of your job descriptions you were hiring for a head of PR in that you said they needed a a degree. Why? Because of all the thousands of applicants you get, you need some initial sift. Now, if somebody's not got a degree, but they've got charisma and determination and they wrote to me and said, "Look, I've got no degree, but I'm the best guy you're ever going to get for the job, that straight away would get them an interview." But if they've not got that drive, passion, and resilience to overcome my requirement for a degree, if they're going to let that be an obstacle that stops them, then I don't want them anyway. So, you know, it's not that I wouldn't I've taken a lot of people on without degrees. A lot. Yeah. But they've had charisma and personality and pushed the way through through it. That's an interesting answer. Um, can you tell us about the first time you saw a mobile phone? Oh, I can. Yes. It was I was uh trading in cars at the time and I was at Brighthouse car auctions and constantly I was rushing to the telephone box because there'd be a car that one of my customers wanted but this car wasn't quite right. Yeah. Might been the wrong color, right? Wrong model. And you'd rush to the telephone box to say, "Look, there's a car coming through in a few minutes. It's not quite exactly what you want, but would you consider it?" Yeah. And by the time I got to the telephone box, stood in a queue, rattled my 10 pencies into the box, the car had gone. And I saw a guy at the on the same day with one arm longer than the other because he was carrying this great big huge suitcase and this great big suitcase. I said, "What's that?" He's a friend of mine. I said, "What's that?" He said, "It's a mobile phone." I said, "What do you mean a mobile phone?" He said, "I can ring anywhere with you." I said, "Show me." And he he picked the phone up. He said, "I can ring anywhere on this phone." So you don't have to go through an exchange or anything like the old system before. He said, "No, no, it just goes straight through." I thought that's amazing. So I came back home that day. Started looking into it. And you know, it took me, this is unbelievable, took me two weeks to find anybody that knew of anybody who could sell me a mobile phone. And we even rang BT because we found out that Cellnet was owned by BT. Yeah. BT had never heard of Cellnet and they owned it. So, oh, it was weird days, you know, when you think of mobile phones today. Yeah. And what it was like then, it's all hard to believe looking back. And how old were you at that stage? Well, it was I don't know actually. It must have been about 40 because it was well, it was it was 1986. Yeah. So, uh, a little bit of math says I was about in my 30s because I think that's one of the interesting stories about angles of John Cordwell story is that actually, you know, it was a little bit later on in kind of life that you really found that that moment, right, because you've been working in sort of car sales as you were saying and it was only this sort of, you know, in your mid30s that you kind of had this Eureka moment. Um, and just sometimes I think that the modern world pressurizes people that they've got to, you know, they've got to have it all and have made it all within their 20s, etc. Well, I certainly wouldn't agree with that. That's undue pressure on people. But I would say get into, if you're going to be in business, get into business as as young as you can to gain the maximum experience. Yeah. I mean, in my particular case, there was no inspiration. I went to a council house school. Mhm. All you were ever expected to do was go down the mines or in the pottery industry or in the steel works. That was your expectancy as a stoke on trend young person. And if you talked about any ambition, people thought you'd sort of gone a bit cuckoo, you know, what what's he talking about? So there was just no inspiration. In fact, the reverse was true. anybody that I had even the slightest bit of uh uh respect for. So no, you never want to do that. And you know, I was put off all the time. It didn't deter me, but I I only had negative inspiration around me, not positive. Uh and and so and I did have a business that that really um really disappointed me massively, which was a grocery shop that I put my wife into. Yeah. It was a terrible, terrible decision. I got everything wrong. But you know, I learned such a lot from that because I in my desperation to get into business. Yeah. I did this deal on a a little 10 12t square grocery shop lockup um from Miss Shevelton Port Hill in the And my wife had to had to catch three buses to get there in the morning. It took her an hour. She was a librarian, an intellectual who loved books. And she did not like looking after bacon and sausages at all. And I'd come in and the the cheese would be all cracked where it had been left exposed. The bacon had curly edges. And I' I'd think, Kate, she won't mind me saying this actually. It's my ex-wife now. I'd say, Kate, why why? And she later on said, "Well, you more or less forced me to go into that shop. I hated it." Yeah. And anyway, it was a great way of reading lots and lots of books. So that's all I did most of the time. And you know, I learned something very important from that. I I learned that first of all, get somebody who really does fit. You want a square peg in a square hole. Don't no matter how brilliant you think somebody is in one area, don't think that they're going to perform in another area because it's not necessarily going to be true. In fact, it often isn't true. The other thing, of course, I learned, I was going to the cash and carries. I was buying huge amounts of products where they were discounted. They they'd have special offers on, bring those into the shop, label them all up, put them on the shelves, sell them out. Sometimes we delivered on a Friday night to people's homes. What a ridiculous formula, you know, for for for five, six, seven%, 10%, you got all of that work to make no money. Yeah. And it really did teach me a lot. How quickly do you know when you've made a wrong hire? Oh, do you know that that's difficult as well? But what I can tell you is from my experience, the vast majority of managers put up with somebody way too long. And I would even say in spite of people saying that uh in the past that I'm very quick to make a decision, I would even accuse myself of that. I've done it too long. I did it two years ago. You know, you see a lot of qualities in a person. And somebody might be very valuable in some ways, but they're failing. They're not getting the result that you set them on to do. And you put up with that result because you see other qualities in them. but actually you should have changed them out sometime before. So I would I would say to people don't ever think that you that you're dismissing people too soon. Usually it's going to be too late. That is of course assuming that you've got a rational manager that thinks properly and analyzes properly because I've employed managers that turned out to be uh lacking anal analysis, dismissing people for the wrong reasons. uh and probably to do with their own ego and so on. So you've got to be certain that the person making the decision is rational and humanitarian about it. But then if you've got that person making the right decision, then you need to remove people that are not performing very very quickly. Where do you think you would be looking to start your career now? So if you were in your 20s in 2025, what would you be looking to do? Well, over the last 10 years, I would say if I if I ever did that again, it would be anything that could be internetbased. Yeah. Um, anything that ideally where you could do subscriptionbased internet sales all over the world. Yeah. So, a product that appeals to everybody, that appeals to everybody in every country, and that you can sell intellectual property on videos or whatever it is, and it be internetbased. I did set up an online mail order business while I was running that grocery shop and that had the chance of really being huge and it was growing at a phenomenal rate. I was growing at two 300% per week and expanding it massively from a zero start admittedly but it was expanding massively. I started looking at new products and it was motorcycle clothing and Bell staff pulled the plug on me completely and put me in a huge mess because I'd already uh already booked lots of advertising in all the newspapers that I needed to go in. I was committed to that and they they cut my supply off and that taught me another lesson and that was not to trust corporates. Yeah. And I would never trust a corporate. I would trust trust has to be earned no matter who it is. But you've got more chance if you're dealing with uh an entrepreneur who owns the business and you can eyeball them and they usually will display a reasonable amount of ethics. Yeah. In corporate life, one manager goes, another comes in, all the promises that have been made to you get changed and it's, you know, it's a bit of a lottery if a lot of your business is dependent upon that supplier. Um that's very uh very interesting about the entrepreneur and the ethics and the look in someone in the eyes. Why why did you decide not to go public with phones for you? I'll come on to that in a second, but I was just thinking perhaps another bit of advice for people. And this is not advice you can always implement, but it's advice that you should absolutely follow as near to the letter as possible. And that is to never allow more than 10% of your business to be with anyone supplier, 10% to be with anyone customer or 10% to be within anyone salesman. Always make sure you follow that 10% rule. I couldn't because my main suppliers were I'd only got two or three and I'd always got one that was vital. So I couldn't. But that 10% rule was absolutely vital for people to follow. And people that don't follow that leave themselves vulnerable to catastrophic um uh situations. So they really need to look at that. Really need to look at that. On your question about why I didn't go public, I always intended to go public. It was always a natural uh evolution and I suppose there was for me an element of um of glory in going public, you know, and being listed on the on the ST stock exchange and seeing my shares worth a billion, two billion, three billion, you know, and and and I really groomed the business for that to be the case. But the more I talked to various people, the more they said, "Oh, it it wouldn't suit you because you'd be answerable to shareholders. The decision making wouldn't be quite so autocratic as as it is at the moment. And you probably wouldn't like all the bureaucracy that goes with it." And I just gradually sort of uh I don't know lost interest in it. Plus the fact the the other aspect was I was working flat out growing the business. and they talked about the diver diversion of management time and my time in order to do that. Yeah. So, it just dropped off the radar and uh and a few of my uh contacts advised me if I was ever going to sell to do a trade sale rather than a flotation. Are you a fan of Jimmy's jobs of the future? Hi, I'm Sunny, one of the producers behind the show. Have you ever thought my business deserves to be in the spotlight, too? Well, you're not alone. Companies reach out to us all the time asking us to create podcasts and digital video content for them. But until now, we've only taken on a limited amount of projects. But here's the good news. In 2025, we're expanding. Our production company, Boxlight, is now ready to help more businesses like yours tell their stories with highquality white label content. Curious to see what we can do or how much it might cost? Head over to boxlight.io. You'll find examples of our work and even a podcast calculator to explore your options. That's boxlight.io. We'd love to help you shine in 2025. Now, back to Jimmy. Did you ever have any sellers remorse in the years that followed? No. No. No. Um, in 2002, Yeah. I forecast a massive um recession in the UK economy. This is not very clever really because I just I believe in the cycle of life. Yeah, you know, and when anything gets heated, it's going to go down, you know. So, you're going to get this cycle of life. It's like a sine wave. If you're at the very top, the only way usually is down, whether it's your own personal health, you your relationships with people or whether it's your business. And if you think about that philosophy and most of the things you do, it allows you to adjust for it. Well, in those days, 2002, 2003, the UK was booming. Everything was huge. I mean it private equity was even managing to put less than 7% of their own money into a deal. So what what I mean great for the seller because the private equity people were more cavalier but if they're more cavalier because they've only got 7% in that means somebody's going to lose and there's going to be a blow up sooner or later. But house prices were a huge multiple of earnings. So there was all these indications that the that the economy was overheating. In addition, the mobile phone market was really beginning to mature. And it was clear that it was going to go very much down applications and technology, which although I'm an engineer, it wasn't really my forte. My forte was raw, hard-hitting commercialism. And I didn't necessarily think that was going to suit me. But so you couple that perhaps not suiting me along with a recession in the mobile phone industry because it was going to be consolidated because it was pretty well you know pretty well getting mature coupled with a recession in the UK made me decide to sell. So I started grooming the business for sale then and spent the next three years grooming it. Now I I forecast the recession to be about 2004205. Of course, we know that didn't happen and we know it didn't happen like that anyway because it didn't turn out to be a UK recession, turned out to be a global financial crisis. So, somewhat different, but the UK recession would have happened regardless of the financial crisis. Um, so I was grooming the business and I for a year was trying to sell it because it was complex, 20 companies, nobody wanted them all. I had to do split sales. The split sales were complex from a tax point of view because I would have been disadvantaged massively on tax. Uh, and we had to get the right buyers. So, it was a real baptism by fire trying to sell that business. And on the day that we actually sold it, the relief was palpable because I'd spent so long trying to dispose of it. Yeah. Prior to that, Yeah. I thought I was selling my baby. I'd sell selling my baby that I'd grown from a baby to a teenager to an adult. And now I was selling that and selling my identity with it. But I didn't feel like that after I'd sold it at all. And in any event, you know, I sold it for lots of reasons. One of those I've just given you. But I wanted to do more charity work and uh I wanted more family time. I haven't ended up with more family time because I've done all these other businesses. So hasn't worked out too well. That's I mean retirement is probably my biggest failure in life. Richard Harpin said a similar thing when he came on as well. Um, you're also doing a lot of, we'll come on to the philanthropy stuff, but you're also doing quite a lot more work in the kind of like public policy space and so on. And you recently wrote this report and I was just intrigued by the opening line of it because it was something is not working in the UK and I think a lot of people kind of feel that at the moment. Can you kind of expand on on what you think isn't working? Yeah. Gosh, where do I start on that? Well, I think first of all the major problem probably with any country but with ours in particular is politicians are politicians. I know that's an obvious stupid statement in a way. We need commercialism but the problem is if you get commercialism you get potentially um somebody with the snout in the trough. Yeah. Somebody with self-interest. And I I I said to Kia Starmer a few months ago, I'm probably the only guy you could ever ask for advice that's not a social, not an employee that you could ever ever ask that's got no snout in the trough and got as a a reasonable amount of commercial intellect in order to be able to give you some sound advice. Yeah. Anyway, he didn't take it, but you know, he promised to hear me. Yeah. And I've been fighting with Labor ever since on what they're doing. If you look at what's what's wrong, of course the Tories massive wasted opportunity. Um 14 years of disaster now, you know, if you want to be kind to them, you can say, well, there was post financial crisis and then they had COVID. Yeah. And they had the Brexit mess in the middle of all that. So whether you agree with Brexit or not doesn't matter. It was a mess that was a destructive mess that distracted politicians from the job in hand. But I just don't think they have commercial intellect. Let me let me give you an example of why I think they've got no commercial intellect. Look at Rachel Reeves budget. Mhm. There isn't a person that I know that would say it's business friendly. Yeah. Not a single person I know that would say it's business friendly. Not a single person I know that would say it's wealthy people friendly. Now I I absolutely believe that just for the record on this because I always say this. I absolutely believe that there I wish there was a way of narrowing the rich poor divide. I really wish that. I wish we could have a global wealth tax on the rich global because we could all part with 2% peranom and the poor would be a lot wealthier and the rich could still carry on getting richer. But we can't. So you have to live within the environment that we're in. And if you look what Rachel Reeves has done, nearly every measure was negative against business and rich people. Yeah. Not only that, but I think the non-dom rule is grossly unfair because if somebody moved to the UK a few years ago, having made all the money living somewhere else and made it in other countries, then they come to the UK under a non-dom rule and think they've got another 15 years of non-dom status, they settle the kids in at school and so on and so forth, and then the government changed the rules. Well, how can that be fair, let alone commercial? And of course, they're all being driven off to Dubai, to Milan, and to Monaco. I said to Rachel Reeves, uh, this was in a meeting a short while ago, every 5 p you put on a liter of petrol, yeah, raises 15 billion. If you put 10 p on, it's 30 billion. If you put 1% of public spending, it's 1 point, it's 12 billion. Yeah. There's your budget. There's your budget. Now I know putting 10 pence on a liter of petrol would be very unpopular but how long readers of the sun would be yeah how long would it last for though you know because petrol's varied from 130 to 180 over the last 12 months. Yeah. How unpopular would it be? Yeah. Shortterm you get ripped to shreds maybe. Yeah. But what happens in the election in four years time when you've encouraged businesses from all over the world if you do my other philos policy which I'll come on to. You've encouraged businesses from all over the world to come to the UK to be bring high technology products and high technology thinking intellectual and products and especially in the environmental space. And you go to the electorate and you say, well, you've forgotten I put 10 p on petrol anyway. That's long since gone. It's long since dropped out of inflation. It's history. Yeah. And petrol is still cheaper anyway than it was when we came into power. Um, now you were as a spad, so you would have an inside view on Well, I would have an inside view. I'm not sure the public would forget it quite as quickly as you um say, but I I take the I totally take the point that you need some radical action at the moment. But it is intriguing like, you know, as as a billionaire, as somebody who's made a billion pounds that you're calling for kind of like more taxes like No, not more taxes, smart taxes. Well, okay. Smart. Yeah. Because if you put 10 pence on a liter of petrol, it's going to do nothing except maybe just make it a little bit more difficult for those people at the bottom end of the food chain. Yeah. But they've just increase the minimum wage. So there's a positive. Yeah. Maybe increase the minimum wage even a bit further to compensate for the 10 p. But the rest of society can easily afford that 10 p. But let's bear in mind it has come down from 180 to 130. You know, and I know the government wouldn't necessarily know that at the time of the budget, but it also fits absolutely into climate change. Yeah. How could we justify cheap fossil fuels with the climate catastrophe that's coming down the road? We can't justify it. But we can drive people to Dubai, rich people to Dubai and not attract inward investment. So the whole budget should have been different. But even if people don't agree with 10 pence on petrol, 5 p would be 15 billion. Yeah. 1% on VAPT, it'd be 5 billion. A sugar tax could raise 5 billion. Yeah. A tax on alcohol could raise 5 billion. A tax on online gambling could raise two billion. You know, there's there's so many taxes that would be almost irrelevant and allow the economy to be driven in the right direction, which would then make everybody wealthier instead of the downward spiral that we've got now of making everybody poorer. But why are so many millionaires going to Dubai at the moment? Uh, well, it's definitely for tax. It's definitely for tax. I was with cycling with a friend of mine in Monaco last week and he's he's gone for tax reasons and he's only just moved there two weeks ago and I just questioned him and I said if my idea of taper relief was there which we had taper relief of course on capital gains tax always labor introduced it actually in the 80s or 90s and then it got aborted and changed and chopped around but if we had if we had 50% discount account on your capital gains tax that was on a taper relief up to 20 years and you people have got to stay in the UK and work and drive the business for 20 years and if they do that you give them a taper relief of 50%. I said would you have left and he said no he said but they've hiked it up to 24%. and a coupled with inheritance tax worries etc. to coupling with all the taxes that they've made that work against me and my business, it's time to go. And if you look at I mean I don't understand why Labour can't see this because n between 23 and 24 the amount of people going to Dubai then this is factual doubled. Yeah. From the UK wealthy people doubled left. What they've done now is doubling down on that because what they've done now will probably be there's a double again and instead of it being I think it was 11,000 be 22,000 and it's the wealth not necessarily wealth creators they may just be wealthy people and not wealth creators but it's this guy I'm talking about is a wealth creator and he's just running going to run his business from Monaco. Yeah. You know, it's just it's shortsighted because whatever they think they're going to raise, they're actually going to end up with the excheer being worse off than if they'd have made much different choices. And I believe that in the election uh in three years, four years time that if they follow my policies, they'd be a lot better off even if the sun readers want to say, "Well, you raised petrol by 10 p." Because overall, everybody would feel happier. The health service would be performing better, the potholes would be filled, everything would be performing better, the UK would be more prosperous, and everybody would say, "Okay, well, they put 10 p on the petrol, but we're okay. The the the economy is good." Have you ever thought about standing? No. No. Why not? I mean, you're very clear, very passionate. There's no commercial, you know, because it's very simple. I don't want to be that famous. I don't want to have security. I would only do it if I could be prime minister. And I don't think I'm smart enough to be prime minister in terms smart might not be the right word. I don't think I'm I don't think I'm woke enough to be prime minister. I don't think I can [ __ ] I I'm very straight and I say the way it is and if people don't like it, they don't like it. And I said that about the petrol and the telegraph. I know a load of people won't like it, but I'm not bothered. It's the right thing to do and not the political thing to do. Yeah. And I'm all about doing the right thing whether it damages my own self-interests or anybody individual's interests as long as it's the right thing for the country to grow the economy to grow the excheer so that we can be a humanitarian society and be in great shape. It might also move us all towards electric cars much quicker. What what car do you drive? Uh I don't. You've seen me. I came on my bike. There's my shoes. So and you and you are you are phenomenal with your cycling. You do 20,000 miles a year, right? Is Oh, no, no, that's an exaggeration. I have done. Okay. I have done, but I'm too busy to do that. I wish I could. Yeah. I can't I can't do anything like that. But I'm now training for the ATAP, which is a an a leg of the Tour to France, which is 14,000 ft of climb. And I'm terrified because I haven't had the time to train. Yeah. But also, I'm doing Paris to Peing, which is the world's hardest car rally, 14,000 kilometers in a 90 years old car. And I'm going, this is ridiculous really because I'm doing that. It's going to take five weeks. Yeah. I haven't got any pedals in the car, so I can't train. I can't train. It's 12 hours a day sitting in the car. Then I've got to maintain the car at nighttime. Um, and I come back from that and I've only got two weeks to get ready for the attack. Why are you doing that? I don't know. Car ride. Who are you doing it for with Well, it's with my brother. It's just just It's a challenge he's always wanted to do. Yeah. And I tend to follow him on a lot of the things he does because he's really big into cars and it's nice quality time for the two of us. And I do enjoy cars. You know, I race cars. I was racing at the weekend at Brans Hatch. But I enjoy cycling more. But I I've gone and over booked myself. You know, I'm racing back to back at weekends whenever I've got the chance. I'm doing PK to Paris. I've got to run my businesses and I've got to train for the attack. It's just ludicrous. As my partner, Modesta, keeps telling me. She's an Olympic cyclist and she said, "I would have never done any of that even when I was at the peak of my training." You know, she said, "It's crazy." And she's right. Actually, she's right. What What drives you now though? Right. Because you know, you've made a billion pounds. I And yet, as you say, you're almost busier than you've ever been. That's why I said I'm the biggest failure at retirement. And I I I don't I don't say that with pride. I say that really thinking my brother challenges me on it all the time because he retired when he was 40 and he's got an amazing life. He does everything he wants to do. I am cramming everything in all the time. But I suppose I still love creating things of beauty. Hence one Mayfair and Provenal my property developments. They weren't done purely for profit at all. They're done for I could say heritage, but it's not just heritage. It's achieving something magnificent in my own lifetime. Uh I've got the new charity I founded, Cordwell children, Cordwell Youth, in addition to Cordwell children. I'm very passionate about helping these young people, whether they're Cordwell youth people who we help be to try and keep them off the on the straight and narrow instead of them turn into crime or turn into drugs or being abused. Um, and Cordwell Children's for disabled children. I'm utterly driven and passionate about those. So, I can't leave it. It's not a choice not to do it. The building projects were a choice. I decided to do them and now they're not a choice. Um I've got a marine propulsion system which once again is not a choice. It was I've made I've made bad choices. So what does that do then? I didn't come across that. That's Cordwell Marine which uh we are producing the world's first reliable 300 horsepower diesel outboard and there's a massive market for it in single fuel. So this could be one of the biggest businesses I've ever built. It could be a huge Yeah. But the point I was making is I've got all of this and I'm trying to fit my family, my two young children, a 2-year-old and a four-year-old. Trying to fit those and all my hobbies and sports. Yeah. Into this impossible pint pot that I have to fit about three pints into. And how how have you found it becoming a father sort of again later? Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. I wish I had more time really, but wonderful. I'm uh I suppose I'm more relaxed with my children. You know, I brought six children up before. Probably more relaxed. Um they're very high-spirited kids, both of them. I mean, the they're I could say they're the worst of everything about me and Modesta, but I think that might be unkind to both of us. I'm not sure. But they're very they're tough cookies. They're very tough. And uh but it's lovely. It's a wonderful experience when people go on about waiting for grandkids. Are you? I said, "Well, I've got two grandkids, but no, I've got more than enough with my two children." It's wonderful. It's wonderful. You know, the only thing I would say about it is at my age, I wish it had happened a little bit earlier because um you know, my biggest fear is that I'm not around when they need nurturing in into adulthood. And uh you know, and I treat my health very seriously, not just because of that, but because I do, you know, so I stay fit and healthy all the time. But but you don't know what's coming down the road. And none of us are entitled to anything in life. We're not entitled to money. We're not entitled to health. We get what we're given. Yeah. Uh and all you can do is try and use what you're given to the best advantage. So, yeah, that's my slight regret, but it's wonderful having these kids. What are you thinking about their inheritance and so on? Because as we've talked about, you've made a lot of money and you're giving 70% of that away at least and you upgraded that from 50% as an initial thing. How are you thinking about your children? It's a real challenge. It's a massive challenge because, you know, with my eldest daughter who's uh in her 40s, I didn't say the age because I always forget exactly. I think she's 45 anyway. Uh she'll forgive me if I've got it wrong. She doesn't count her birthdays anymore anyway. But um she was an interior designer and I helped her with that. Just helped her to get a foot on the ladder, but it was all her own work really. Um, and I said, "You're never really going to make any money out of interior design, so why don't you go into property development and do the interior design for your own property development?" Yeah. And uh, anyway, as a result, I gave her a soft loan. Um, which I turned into a gift, and she didn't know this at the time. She thought it was a loan, but it was actually a gift because I thought, well, that'll do for a bit of inheritance tax planning anyway. Yeah. So, I gave it to her as a gift, but she thought it was a loan, so she had to be sharp. She had to work and she did an amazing job. They did a development in New York, made a fortune out of it. She's owned 15, 20 properties. Yeah. Sold. So, she's done very well. Anyway, the point being, if I'm alive, it's wonderful to be able to give them a leg up in a way that keeps them responsible for their own success and their own future. Yeah. Uh and not just living off dad's money. that I would hate with any of my children to be living off dad's money. If dad dad dad's money helps them to gain a foothold and helps them to advance through their own hard work, effort, and dedication, that's great. And if they don't want to make a lot of money, that's fine as well. My uh second daughter is a psychologist and uh she's never going to make any real money at that. you know, it's but she loves helping people and she's doing that job and she'll be okay for money but you know but not not uh she won't make a lot of money herself but I fully support that because it's really doing good in the world and it's a very worthwhile career so it's really difficult you know and there's no answer to it and we all have this debate many many times what do you think your youngest children might end up doing as careers in 15 years time I mean this is called Jimmy's jobs of the future right so like let's try and period You've obviously had a huge like long career already and have seen several cycles come and go. What are you thinking might happen in the economy in the next 15 years? In the economy or with my children? Well, I suppose because that was two questions. Well, yes, it is. But it's more broadly the economy. I guess my personal view on this is that AI is just going to change everything dramatically and the jobs market is going AI really worries me. Worries me in a massive way. Now, on the on the positive side, we all know that there's real advantages to AI. Yeah. That it it it's going to make everybody more efficient, especially in certain jobs. I mean, I've just produced a one Mayfair AI podcast. Yeah. Um, we spent eight minutes putting the data into ChatGpt deep dive, transferred deep dive over into Google notebook, and out pops this amazing podcast. It's probably not quite right because it's a bit Americanized and there's a bit a bit cliched in places, but it's amazing. Yeah. So, you've got to take AI very very seriously, which I do. But what worries me is two things. One is the fanciful idea that maybe robots take over the world. I I sort of don't think that's going to happen, but who am I to judge that? I've nowhere near the intellect um on on that subject to be able to take a viewpoint, but you know, experts say it could happen. It's possible. But what I can see already and which really disturbs me is that the AI videos that were produced that are virtual reality and you don't our kids are going to grow up having no idea of the difference between reality and fact. they're going to be confused between fact and fiction. And I saw a video the other day and I thought, is that right? And I it was funny really because it took me in. So I might sound a bit naive to your listeners, but it took me in because they did this video and it was bears on the highway uh of Yellowstone National Park. Yeah. And all these bears are there and it's saying that this is a phenomenon. The bears have all moved onto the highway blocking the road. Nobody can gain access anymore. What What's happening? Is there some event? And I'm starting to think is there a volcanic event going to take place that they can sense animal sense and so on and so forth. And then I read further and it said and some of them there's even a question now whether they're becoming semiiterate because they're holding rough crude wooden signs. And I started think okay now this this is now stretching it. So I went on to the internet and said, "Is there any?" And of course there wasn't. But you know, even as a 72 year old veteran and cynical person, I'm still semifooled for a while. What are our kids going to grow up like? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's going to be It's a worry. Yeah. It's a real worry. So what do you think the jobs will be that we're doing in 15 years? Well, I I I thought I had this vision when I was in my early 20ies, which is stupid, but it it does lean lead you towards what I see, which is that our brains might sit in a globe of fluid and some with electronic connections and that is our life and we live our life through virtual reality. Yeah. And our brain there's no body anymore. the brain lives forever in this fluid and it connects with every part of life but it's all virtual it's all you know we're no longer there and and I think you sort of see slight movements towards that in so far as a lot of people are not very active uh the majority of the western world are becoming more and more obese uh you just see this in activity you've got the health geeks that really put the health first and the fitness first and so on but you've got a lot of inactive people. Uh, and then you've got AI coming along at a rapid rate. And I mean, it's frightening how quick it's coming along. And at the moment, it's at the useful stage. Not quite useful enough in my opinion, but useful and getting more and more useful every day. So, it's going to be a very, very different world. And I think um, you know, Modesta says about our children about working mobile phones because they're now utterly even the two-year-old fully fluent on an iPhone. Yeah. Fully fluent. And I know that's bad because it damages the brain. It's a proven scientific fact that too much screen time damages the human brain. It changes the wiring. Uh I'm against it from that point of view. But then the flip side of that is our kids are going to have to be absolutely 100% in that world of screens and AI. Yeah. And everything being done in that way. So, it's a bit of a frightening world for my children, I have to say. I I worry about them and what they're faced in the future. And all I can do as a father and the mother is try and steer them in the right direction, try and explain when they see these ridiculous videos that I mean, in the future, I'm guessing that maybe 50% of YouTube videos will be just complete nonsense. Yeah. You know, fabricated nonsense to gain followers. Yeah. You know, who knows? It's going to be wild. Yeah, I was uh My kids love using the Alexa and so on and they chat all these things into it about sort of, you know, play the poo poo song, whatever. My mother-in-law was just saying like how kind of like amazing it is that all these songs and I was like, if you listen carefully, it's all AI generated, so they can shout whatever they want into it and it'll play a song back like of that nature. Like it's um yeah, it's it's pretty extraordinary. Um let's go let's just go back to government and commercial nature of it because I also think that is a big problem that governments have um across the world is not enough commercial expertise and yes there are different skills required in running a government but I would love to dive into what you think of the kind of whole Trump and Musk experiment because in a way Musk is the greatest commercial mind that's arguably ever lived uh really well is wealthiest person that's ever lived Trump No, Musk. Oh gosh, I thought not Trump. Sorry. [ __ ] off. Sorry. I'd already thought you were going to talk about Trump, so I misheard Musk for Trump. But anyway, but like Musk has come come into the sort of government in this like I'm not sure that's true. Look, let me challenge you on that. Yeah. Okay. Because yes, he's created a huge wealth. How much of that was luck and how much was genius, I don't know. But let me show you why he's really stupid. to go into Doge and not not I'm going to throw something else in there. Inhumanely stupid because what he did was inhumane. It's wrong. The principle's right. Get rid of the sector, but do it selectively. But if you look at what he's done, he's alienated all the Liberal Democrats who buy a li who buy electric cars. Yeah, the Liberal Democrats. I bet you you'd be struggling to find a cult follower of Trump who buys an electric car. Yes, you'd probably find a few, but it's not his market. His market. And then he alienates the Germans by fascist fascism in Germany and he alienates Europe and he alienates everybody. Is that a genius brain that thinks I'm so hellbent on doing this doge job that I don't mind if my business goes under? Does he think that or or was it a shock to him? Well, I I don't know, but I just think it's, you know, he's undoubtedly had huge commercial success. It is fact. It is a very interesting idea of bringing him into the government and seeing what can be done. I mean, obviously, he's about to be sort of stepping back from it and so on, but we both said in this interview, government needs more kind of commercial expertise. And so, what did I say to you? I said, the trouble is we're bringing commercial people like me in. Yeah. Most of them are going to have the snout in the trough. Now, what do you think of Musk's snout in the trough in regards to sacking 18 inspectors general? The inspectors general were put in during, I think, Nixon era. Yeah. To stop abuse of power by politicians at the top. And Musk was being investigated by many, many of these for many potential offenses. Yeah. With his business. And they've all gone. Yeah. And have the cases dropped away? I don't know. But but the people that were driving these cases have probably gone. And so, you know, it's smacks of corruption to me. Yeah. Okay. But surely I mean, who would if you were assembling a cabinet, if you were prime minister, who would be the business people that you would want to bring in? Well, you you're assuming that I'd be prime minister, are you? Yeah, because I'm assembling the cabinet. Yeah. Um I think I would be a good prime minister except that I'm not articulate enough. I don't I've not got a good enough memory. I can do the commercial piece well. Yeah, there's some of the pieces I couldn't do well, but I would bring commercial people in. Um but I would say, look, no conflict of interest whatsoever. and if I sense any conflict of interest, um, you'll be out. And so, yes, there'd be business people who'd probably be currently running businesses, but I wouldn't allow anything that I felt was a conflict of interest, but that's so I mean, look, I agree with you in the spirit of that, but I just think it's so difficult with business people. I mean, we because they'll have like, you know, lots of different projects that they're kind of working on. Well, the devil's in the detail. I've spent my whole life with the devil in the detail, you know. I mean, I've spent my whole life trying to run at macro level and digging into the detail to find anything that was wrong. And that's what you need to do, you know, as a prime minister. If you can do everything right at the top, at the macro level and dig into the detail of the slightest thing that's going wrong within your cabinet, you can put it right and sort it out, stamp it out before it gets to be epidemic or problematic. Do you think you would have been successful at anything you chose to do or do you think you had a huge amount of luck? No, I think I'd have been successful at anything. It does sound a bit arrogant, I'm afraid, but I I think I can turn my hand to anything at all. The only the only place where I'd struggle really is in this new world of AI and technology because although I'm an engineer, I'm a mechanical engineer. I can deal with nuts and bolts of mechanical things and pneumatics, electronics and hydraulics, but I don't really I don't have any nut andbolt depth of knowledge at all when it comes to how you design an app or write a program and so on. Now, of course, I could I could I could interview people and get a feeling for whether they were good or not. Yeah. But whereas commercially I could I'd got a much better chance of finding out if somebody was good in this world that we're moving into today. I'm not sure I could. So I don't I don't know that I could succeed in in that um sort of electronic screen internet type of environment unless I just got somebody else to develop an app. Yeah. Um, when it comes to philanthropy side, what have you learned in the last 20 years about approaching it and how to spend your money but also your time? Where do you have most impact when that and and how does it differ from from the business world if at all? Well, it differs a lot because what you're trying to do is touch somebody's emotion to give money to make people's lives better. Uh, and you're not giving them a product for that. And I often say when I'm auctioning, I do quite a few auctions myself and I often say to people, look, you won't walk away with anything in your pocket tonight, but what you'll walk away with is with the spiritual satisfaction of knowing that what you've just donated has changed x number of children's lives beyond your comprehension. And you can feel very happy and spiritually satisfied by that. And probably much more so than if you just go out and buy a new car, which you might enjoy for the first few days and after that it won't matter anymore because you've got another 10 in the garage. Yeah. You know, it's that sort of feeling of spiritual happiness and spiritual satisfaction of knowing that you have helping to make the world a better place and helping people that really do deserve the help. Um, and but how's your approach change? Like what what have you learned about philanthropy? Oh gosh, I've learn I've learned a lot of things. I've learned that it's very difficult in a lot of cases to get money out of people. Um I find that the less wealthy people tend to be way more generous than the very wealthy people. Way more generous. You know, I've had a billionaire sitting on my table that's come along free of charge. Um this is at the ball donated not a penny. I've had a friend that's come along who's not very wealthy who can't really afford the donation donated 25,000 for a wheelchair. Yeah. You know, and you think, well, why why how can a billionaire come along and sit on your table as your guest? No. Not even bought a ticket and not do anything on the night when there's all these compelling causes, you know, and we do our best to touch people's hearts. You I see people in the audience when I do my speech. I see them crying. I see them crying in the audience. I've often got tears in my eyes when I'm thinking about these kids and what they're born with or what they're born without actually is more important. And they are desperately, desperately in need of help. And these rich people can sit there and watch this and they could write a check that wouldn't be in many cases one hour of interest on their money. Yeah. That they've sat there through. And I I don't get it. I really don't get it. I don't get it with people like Well, Bezos. Musk has joined the giving pledge now. I'm not sure about Bezos, but you know, if I were him, I'd just make a pledge to donate 99% of my wealth. Not necessarily after during my lifetime because that might you might want to be the richest person on earth. Yeah. And it's just a pledge. It doesn't take your wealth away now. You just pledge that you're going to do it during or after your lifetime. You were you were one of the first people in the UK to do the bit. I was the first. Well, I did it before the giving pledge was founded because I when I sold the business, I thought, what am I going to do with all this money? Yeah. I don't want my kids to have it, that's for sure. So, I put in my will straight away. Nothing to do with the giving pledge because it was before that. I put in my will straight away. 50% goes to charity. So, I did that. It's still left 50% which still gave me the same headache of what am I going to do with that money? Yeah. You know, with my children. So, it was still a problem. Um talk to us a bit more about the charities that you do because they are they are amazing. Yeah. Cordwell children are founded in 2020. Yeah. Sorry 2000. Uh I founded that in 2000 and uh it was a small charity at first and the whole point was to make well it was ideally actually to save children's lives but what I what became obvious was that there's not many children's lives that needed saving that you could save. But there was a huge amount of disability, autism, and then 750 other illnesses and some of them really heartbreaking like type two muscular atrophy where the child's got a perfectly wonderful brain but the body is atrophying. So all the muscles atrophy and without an electric wheelchair which has got lots of features in it, their life is zero. Zero. They're just on the floor unable to do anything carried around by the parents. An electric wheelchair transforms the life. And I'll just tell you a little sort of story about Tilly who I helped. I always mentioned Tilly because we've been helping her since she was three years old and now she's 22. And she came to my house in an electric wheelchair when she was four years old. And I invited a few of the kids around. And I'd got a big hall there. And she's bombing around the hall in this electric wheelchair. My son, who was eight at the time, came in and he saw Tilly going around in this electric wheelchair, lights flashing on the back, rise and fall chair. And he said to me, he said, "Oh, Dad, what's happening there?" I said, "Oh, Till's got type two muscular, which actually means all the muscles in her body are weak and her legs, she can't walk, she can't move her legs." He said, "Oh gosh, Dad." She says, "If that's what you get for having weak legs, it's worth having them." and he was actually envious of Tilly. Yeah. Now, if we could create a society where where these disabled people got so much benefit out of what they were getting that they're not pied, but more not envied because they're never going to be envied, but an element of moving towards getting them into position at least where they feel positive about themselves psychologically because they've got this help. So that's Cordwell children and we've helped about 80,000 up to yet. We've done lots of wheelchairs. We've done a lot of autism. We got the UK's biggest autism center. We diagnose autism within two days. The National Health Service takes on average six years. So you know, and it's terrible if you've not got a diagnosis and you've got something that's going wrong with your child. The latest charity I've set up was two years ago is Cordwell Youth. And this is phenomenally exciting as well because we put a one-on-one mentor with a young person at risk. They've usually been in the care system. Probably the parents are not very good. They might not have any parents, but they've been through the care system and they're very vulnerable to uh to being uh criminal behavior, to being abused in some way, to drug trafficking, to drugs. You know, there's all sorts of risks to them. and we put a one-on-one mentor and the criminality aspect is reduced by 93%. So 93% of our young people who are vulnerable to commit a crime while we're looking after them one-on-one mentor for two years don't commit that crime. And it's an amazing success because it saves the government hundreds of thousands of pounds in prisons. It saves a victim like you or me being robbed at home or whatever and maybe damaging your life in some way psychologically. Um, and it gives that young person a future and not being branded a criminal. So, Cordwell youth is, you know, it's the latest thing I've set up and it really is extremely exciting and I I need we're only helping 300 kids at the moment. It's a massive venture and we need to grow to maybe as much as 100,000 young people across the UK. So the challenge is unbelievably huge. Um Lionel Barber and Tony Blair have sat in that chair and I have got in trouble with my team for saying that they've got 10 years left. Uh what would they like to achieve with the rest of their careers? But I do think it's this phenomenon that you have in terms of now you are clearly fit and healthy. You cycled here etc. You've got I would say probably at least 10 years left of making impact. What do you want the last 10 years of your career to look like? Um I well I definitely want Cordwell Youth to grow massively and I I pay fundamentally um I leveraged the money they raise. It was a it's it was originally meant to be that I paid all the operating administrative expenses but then I got challenged on that the people didn't understand what the administrative expenses were. So I've sort of changed it to I give onethird uh a donation of one-third of all the money that they raise from the outside world. Okay. So I'll pay one third which does cover all the operating administrative expenses but I can't be challenged that way. So so I make the statement that way. Um, and I'll carry on doing that. And I'd almost like my team of people in Cordwell children and Cordwell youth to bankrupt me to cost me so much money on those one-thirds that we're transforming society in a huge way. Now, I can say bankrupt me tongue and cheek because they actually can't they won't they'll find it impossible to grow to that extent where they could achieve that. Yeah. But nonetheless, if I'm putting tens of millions in and we're helping hundreds of thousands of kids, that for me would be utopia. I I could sort of die in peace on that on that score. But of course, my other goal, my immense goal is to grow my well, I've got a third child with not with Modesta, but her stepson Lao. I want to grow Leo and William uh and Bella into fine young human beings and I need to be around long enough to do that. So if I've got 10 years, they'll be 12 and 14. I might not have 10 years. So I've got to make the biggest impression I can every single moment of every day. And if I live a lot longer than that, great because I'm here to do it. But that's the the other goal. And I think then the the goals are I want Cordwell Marine to be a huge business, which I think it will be, but it's sort of less important than those first two. You know, whether I make more money or not. Yeah. Is not that important. Um I've got the legacy projects of Provenal and One Mayfair. Regardless of how much money they make, that's my legacy. It's physical environment. My grandchildren will be walking past and say, "Grandd did that." you know, and it'll be around for hundreds of years to come because I've built it in such a traditional way and to such an amazing high standard that it will be around forever. So, it it it's very satisfying, but it's not the satisfaction really of looking after these kids and making the world a better place. You said something earlier which has stuck with me. See, you wouldn't want to be prime minister because you wouldn't want to be famous and so on, which I get, but you do name things after yourself a lot and so on like what why is that? Like your branding journey has come on a long way. I saw the first name for phones for you was Midlands mobile phones when I saw my research. It's a it's a fair challenge. That is I think that's a fair challenge. But, you know, there's a huge difference between being prime minister and recognized all over the world and having no privacy whatsoever and needing security. Yeah. And where I'm at where I've got enough recognition to influence government or at least to get governments here. Yeah. I've got enough influence to influence wealthy people to donate to charitable causes. I've got enough influence. I I wouldn't mind a bit more really. And that's one of the reasons I'm doing this with you. you know, I I do things because I don't mind it having a bit more influence, a bit more fame, if you like, in order to influence people. But I I don't want you been approached to do Dragons Den. Well, if you The reality is that they tried to get me to do The Apprentice for two years and threatened me with Alan Sugar when I kept being demanding this was they sent me the all Donald Trump's tapes over. Yeah. They said, "Don't worry about this. It won't be an Americanized like that." And I said, "Yes, but I want people that are real, real quality people." Yeah. And you've got to go out there and search for them. And if you can't convince me that, I'm not going to do it. We negotiated for two years. And they said, "Look, if you don't make your mind up, we've got somebody else." And I said, "Well, who have you got?" And they said, "Well, Alan Sugar." I said, "Well, go get Alan Sugar then. I'm not bothered." And that happened. Ironically, really, it was it was the right decision at the time, but look how well Alan Alan Sugar's done out of that. You know, mind I don't want a lordship anyway because I haven't got the time to go to the House of Lords, but but you know, he's done well. That strategic influence is quite a good way of looking at it over strategic influence over the fame. Like I I do I do get that and I think it's um Let me tell you how the fame affects me because it's an interesting story. So I'm in I'm in a Turkish all you can all inclusive resort. It's not the cheapest one, but it's not the most expensive. And I'm in this Turkish resort and I'm walking through with Modesta and my two kids and this this couple come up to me and said, "Oh, you look just like that mobile phone guy." I said, "Oh, who's that?" I said, "John Cordwell." And I didn't want to be recognized, so I didn't I didn't respond positively. I said, "Oh, right. I really like him, do I?" He said, "Yeah, yeah, you do." He said, "But there's no way you could be him because you wouldn't be at a hotel like this." So I'm wandering off chuckling, you know, wander off, chuckling up to reception, up some stairs to reception. Then I hear the patter pitter patter of heavy feet and these two people have chased after me. They said, "You are John Cordwell. You are." He said, "What are you doing in the hotel?" I said, "The hotel's very nice. It's fine. You know, why why do I do I need to operate like a billionaire or can I just be normal?" And I get that on EasyJet. when I'm on EasyJet, you know, people people I I I see it all the time on my social media. Well, all the time fairly regular say, I can't believe he just saw John Cordwell on our 50 flight to Nice. And it makes me chuckle because I don't I don't need to drive in a Rolls-Royce. I don't need to have a private jet. I mean, I've got lots of things that I do want that I like, like my yacht. But my yacht's a business. It's a business and it's run for business purposes. But of course I get the luxury of it although I have to pay like everybody else. But I also I you know I enjoyed reading that about all your story and so on because it is like the most incredible social mobility story right when you look at it like where you came from what you've achieved like and the fact that your dad died when you were young as well I do often think adds a lot of drive to people uh and it's quite a common factor in top politicians as well. But I would also like the fact that you do enjoy the like some of the trappings of uh of wealth and you know I think that's something that should be sort of celebrated more and so on. I sometimes feel particularly British people sort of hide away a little bit from it but you know you talk about the yacht and some of the I am a bit weird though. I am definitely weird because I'll never do anything unless there's a profit in it or unless it's charitable. Yeah. So, you know, I'll donate the million pounds to Elton John at a ball and still be on the 50 EasyJet flight in the morning at 6:00. Uh, and everything I do has to be profitable. It's just I don't Well, it's going to be profitable because the fee that you're paying me is so huge. It's going to You'll have to cut that out then, won't you? Everybody will be pay. So, that's knackered that question up for you. Well, I've just got one just one final area I want to talk about, which I hadn't been planning to, but I I'm very intrigued by you were talking at the beginning about fasting and taking your health really seriously. What other things do you do have you found have been most effective to help with your health? You don't really know because you haven't got a dial on your on your chest that's telling you where your health is. And I really have never suffered from any consequences but I have got health issues but they cause me no consequences. So I mean I'm very passionate about diet because the whole world is going towards not the world the whole western world is going towards diabetes. Yeah. At a rapid rate and it's forecast that both America and the UK in 15 20 years time will use their entire health budget on diabetes. And of course, as we know, diabetes causes heart attacks, strokes, cancer, amputations, blindness. It's a horrible illness. And look at how obesity's Yeah. coming along at such a rapid rate. I I was only coaching a couple of friends of mine the other day who got diabetes that they can reverse it because it's utterly reversible. It's totally reversible. You shouldn't be taking drugs. Let me just qualify that. It's utterly reversible in most people. Yeah. It's manageable and reversible in most people, not everybody. Especially if it's I mean if it's type one, it's not reversible, but type two diabetes reversible. So I coach people on how to do that. And fasting is a big element part of that. And fasting is amazing because you go into autophagy, human growth hormone, and stem cell production. And so a fiveday fast does the world of good for your body. And I'm sharper, more dynamic, more Well, I haven't eaten now for um 40 hours. And I'm probably not coming across lacking an energy, I guess. No. Um I'm always sharper mentally and physically when And I exercise this morning. I went in the gym and did an hour hard, you know? It's amazing. And my blood sugar pretty my blood sugar stays level. I can cycle every single day for five days and my blood sugar will stay level because what it's doing is burning fat. And also in autophagy, uh the autophagy scredges up all the dead cells around your body, including cancer cells, turns them into glucose and fuels your blood. So when your blood sugars stay level when you're fasting, it's because it's taking rubbish out of your body and some fat and some muscle. So in fairness, there's a bit of muscle you might not want to lose that you might do, but you can easily get that back on. Yeah. So fasting um is is a really big part of my diet. I'm very much into organic. I try and eat zero carbohydrates. Fail massively, massively fail, but but try but I try and I it's my objective. So I do everything that I can to maintain my health and have everything tested. Take vitamin supplements. Everybody nearly everybody uh certainly in the UK is short of vitamin D. M so everybody should be on vitamin supplement D supplements but then they really need to get a blood test just to make sure that they're not getting to toxic levels of vitamin D which is highly unlikely but but nonetheless you do have to just be a little bit cautious about it. Brilliant. John, thanks so much for coming on Jimmy's jobs to the future. You have definitely not lacked energy uh coming across. It's been an amazing story and it's been really great to kind of dive into it and I know there's lots more to come. I hope so. We never know. You never know. [Music]