[Music] [Music] please welcome the moderator for this session michaa kufner thank you very much for that Applause ahead of a debate for the automotive industry here in Europe at a Crossroads which is a very diplomatic way of putting it and to debate the various aspects of that I'm very pleased to welcome Cecilia Malmstrom the former EU trade commissioner she says please take a seat yeah um she says China is not playing fair when it comes to subsidies but she blames European car makers who've not been able to produce high quality affordable electric cars welcome thank you Brian goo is with us he's the vice chairman of the board and co-president of xpen in EV manufacturer in China he says tariff is a tool used by Nations for trading balancing but they are not necessarily effective in driving long-term growth and in Innovation so thank you for being here today we have with us the German Vice Chancellor and trade Minister for economic Affairs and climate action Robert harck please come to the the stage no there I've taken a previous quote from you you say it's important to understand that these are not punitive tariffs that the EU is debating and you stress that joint and equal standards for Market access are what all sides should be talking about uh also with us is Ola kenos as the CEO of metsy dispense uh also coming from a finance background your applause and you say that Free World Trade is very important drives Innovation drives growth instead of creating new tariffs we should rather work to reduce existing trade barriers in the spirit of the WTO so I very much look forward to that debate um we will probably all remember this debate today but we will also remember this as the day uh when Israel was attacked by Iran and also the day that Israel decided to declare the UN Secretary General a persona non grata in the country so as Vice Chancellor um Mr Havoc I would like to give you the chance to just give your initial to reaction to what we've seen unfold over essentially the past 24 hours well first of all as a German politician I have to remember or to remind everyone that the existence of Israel the sh existence of Israel is due to the Deeds of my forefathers and so many other forefathers here in this country so there is the need for solidarity with Israel deep in the German political um what it say attitude um and of course the threat against Israel is tremendous in the past uh two years we have seen it happening um on the ground there now now in this concrete situation we have we have to use all the strengths we have to ease the conflict means diplomatic needs to be in the background and in the foreground everywhere the situation I think everyone would agree on that is really really dangerous as um as the escalation is now shortly could happen shortly and um so I think everyone is advised or would would act wisely if he or she uses all his influence to calm down the situation in the near East um thank you very much for that I just want to make sure that we don't um create our own bubble here on such a day that will no doubt be historic um this today is a continuation of a discussion that we actually started you Mr kenos and H habek last year exactly at this table when the whole debate about potential tariffs actually began and I do remember you Mr kenos laying out why Mercedes has no interest in such um such tariffs in fact you must still be feeling the jet lag coming back from China um and the Chinese are very much interested in you representing the case so I would first like to hear from you uh Rober Hab we expecting a vote on Friday uh Germany is Europe's largest economy um where will Germany throw its weight on that well it's Friday and now we have um Wednesday so there's two days to it's a long time in politics that's true yeah it's a long actually that is the case um but in the end I would agree with everyone who says that tffs are not the answer um of course as a market driven and Export orientated Nation we have to take care that Level Playing Field and um all the rules are are are in place and also everyone is playing to the rules there also I have doubts but my bigger concern as Minister for economic Affairs of this country is that I see now a development of new trade barriers everywhere so tariffs are not only invented or the threat of inventing tariffs and the potential counteraction from China is not only happening in Europe I see the colleague from Brazil Brazil has given tariffs on Chinese cars the US 100% turkey has done it India has done it there are local content rules all over the place happening everywhere we if we are honest we see that the phase of open market globalization is entering in New Stage I wouldn't say that globalization is over but the the belief the maybe naive belief that an open world where a trade is bringing countries together has definitely come to a new f and we see that interest economic interest become power interest and power interest become sometimes also real conflict reasons now so I'm really worried that this debate beyond the background of a broader scene is um part of a un un of a bad bad development but the development is there and that is bad for China and for Europe as well as we we need open markets so what does that mean in actual terms will Germany vote in favor of means actually that um I think that tffs might in some cases be necessary but we need a political solution here in this concrete case and in other cases as well political Solutions means translated that politicians let it just not happen and look and see okay now now it's coming out of the bureaucracy of the apparatus one one word is giving another and then we have terrorists everywhere you started we answer they answer to our answer and then then it's escalation so that is that is not the right way so I mean we are in a process I was in China how long is it now ago maybe three or four months ago there there if I be blunt that the first reaction was there's no problem and then after long talks we we understood each other's positions then the colle wau came to Berlin and also to Europe and the rest of other and many other countries two weeks ago completely different scene now there's an openness China has made a proposal to solve this conflict politically now I'm asking the EU to be open for this discussion the EU understands that negotiations are are are a good thing that now there's suddenly there's development maybe a little bit late there's one months to go until the terrorist the real decision is uh taking place and then um they would come into action but as you just said two two days is a long time and one month is is a is a really long time so if everyone wants to contribute of course it's possible to find Common Ground there and I think this is the motto of the conference um common ground that clearly is also an issue that the EU is grappling with um olenus so how do you read that answer um now what do you make of that what would be your expectation and you've just been to China you met with the chairman of the national development and Reform Commission Jen Shen G I hope I pronounced that correctly um who clearly appreciates Mercedes as the I'd say draw in the crown of German automotive uh industry seen worldwide being what he perceives on his side uh in this particular discussion uh Mercedes-Benz is in a position where we can see it uh from both sides because on the one hand of course we are a German company we export not just to China we export around the world and and we're dependent on on access to markets as free as possible although I acknowledge that the landscape as as minister haboc is describing that the landscape uh over the last five six seven years has not turned for the better I think that's that's the realism that one must have uh but we're also a company with large um operations in China in China for China but also through joint venture in China for Europe so in a way I'm I'm I'm I'm looking at my esteemed colleague here from shaoang uh in a way we're the same we are both exporting uh from China to Europe and I'm looking at the uh at the assessment of the commission what they think they should do to those exports in terms of adding on top of the 10% uh another significant number above that and I'm scratching my head thinking to myself what do they want to do do they want to destroy my business model and make it economically not viable uh because I cannot get the math to compute for us as a manufacturer in China um exporting to Europe even though our exports from Europe to China in terms of their size are much bigger so in that situation Uh u i represent a company I don't represent a country or an economic region what x I represent the company and you go through and think is there a better solution and I believe there is a better solution uh the minister uh alluded to it um straight tariffs is a very crude instrument to use there are many other ways if there is political will to make sure that the that the playing field is level and I cannot look into the head of the negotiators as you said if you have one month to negotiate it's an eternity and if you use it yeah if you use it if you don't use it can be over in in in five minutes uh uh posturing is part of negotiation of course it is but do I believe and I I would like to take an optimistic view do I believe that there is a solution space based upon the conversations that we have had with you know involved people I do believe there is a solution space I generally believe that China has not an interest in the situation that they're in economically uh and with uh what's going on with the United States I don't think they have an interest to get into any kind of escalating trade conflict with Europe so I think the incentive for them to find a solution is is relatively is relatively high so can the time that is now available will be used to find that solution space yes or no that's the question I'm going to take an optimistic view and say it is yes with regard to Friday if I were Germany I would I would vote no not to weaken our negotiating position but to send a signal that we want to negotiate for a fair win-win solution with a Level Playing Field that should be possible so will you vote no well read Mr Kus described it rightly um the the way I mean maybe we have to talk a little bit about China and um that is yeah but it's important because you can't only look at the automotive sector in particular and um I don't know if this if I should do it but I think that China you would correct me if you if you think otherwise has I mean they have changed they have spoken it out loudly with China 2025 a very aggressive strategy for exports that is of course all right I mean I'm the German Minister for economic Affairs we are also an export Nation the question is do they get the capacity for export products by Level Playing Field or is it a subsidized over um capacity for exports and if that would be the case then we have have a problem then we won't have a Level Playing Field so there is reason for distrust in a way because we see it everywhere that the products are sometimes under the price of the production at least the price that European companies can achieve I'm coming back to the automotive sector in a minute but um we're talking about we have problems with two Chinese what do you say fashion companies or selling companies Timo and Shane and the products are not they're not at all fitting to the the regulations of the European product standards so at least they they should not enter the European market so you but still they are there and very aggressively now a threat to our inner cities because they are so cheap so I think the broader picture tells us that China has a new strategy or maybe a prepared but now existing strategy and of course if this strategy is not cooperation but or competition which would be fine but overtaking whole markets like as it has happened with the solar panel industry then we have a problem then also in 10 years time mercedesbenz BMW Volkswagen they would also have a problem and and there are reasons to to to to see that this could happen to so with this um very very I let it be there so now the question is if that should not happen and maybe China really has no interest that this is going to happen because um the world becomes fragment more fragmentated at all and if the European market really closes in like the the US market is closing in for China then the Chinese economy maybe has also a problem so now the question is do we find enough room for maneuver to understand that this situation this part of the situ this situation is part of a bigger picture and then the question is how can Europe um align and speak out as a as a as a union as as what it is and that is the question what is the most successful way to find a political solution in this concrete situation and that leads to the question how do we vote Brian I'll get your perspective from a Chinese perspective in a in a second but c i first want to ask you are you getting flashbacks from your former role as EU commissioner abolutely in terms of the bigger picture that used to be your role when you're listening to these perspectives um what do you make of that and what would your recommendation be how this solution should look like well it's not easy to to see a quick solution but it is of course a bigger picture there's a political pressure from many countries who have car industry and who feel that they cannot compete uh today and the commission has done an investigation I think it's clear that China is subsidizing their car industry in a way that is not respecting the Level Playing Field uh and then of course there has to be a decision I am not in a commission anymore I left it 5 years ago uh so I don't think the tariffs are the right solution right now I don't think it will help European industry but the the big question is of course how should the relationship be with China but also how can European car vehicle industry catch up because we have a uh we have joint commitments to transition uh in in the in the The Net Zero carbon economy uh we know that citizens want electric cars that are affordable that are high quality China can deliver them today Europe can obviously not deliver them to to that extent so it's a bigger picture uh on that but I think that on the and that that is why probably there will be a decision on Friday to impose the the tariffs uh and from there continue the discussions on China I think this morning The Negotiator says that the the the discussion doesn't end on Friday whatever the outcome there would be a decision to see can we come with a Sol can Europe find a solution tion together with China can there be minimum prices can there be a way to put this forward but then of course we need to have the discussion and the conversation within the European uh car industry not only in Germany but also all over the continent how are you observing uh this debate you're from a um manufacturer who's very software heavy he you've just been invested in heavily by Volkswagen in order um to um essentially help them meet consumers needs and wants who are inre increasingly perceiving um Vehicles as a personal space essentially a computer on Wheels so when when you're hearing this debate what what crosses your mind well first of all I'm very honored to be on this table um as a very young company we just celebrate our 10th anniversary this year to participate in a debate like this is a very uh I would say um you know humbling um I would say first of all I know I I cannot say I represent China or Chinese industry but I can probably give you the perspective of a young Chinese EV startup company that has went through the Journey of a fierce competition in China um in the last 10 years uh most of you probably know that what happened in China was tremendous uh focus and competition in in fact I think there were you know rumored to be close to 500 EV startups uh you know probably seven eight years ago and now left with less than 10% of these names still in business business and that level of competition really result in the industry today which is highly efficient highly Innovative and also you know producing you know exporting technology and products to to the rest of the world so the way we look at this obviously from a company's perspective we always always wanted have a fair leving Level Playing Field for the Chinese company to compete globally um in Europe and we just entered Europe this year uh was probably uh close to uh a dozen or so markets and I think uh you know we are coming not because we're the cheap alternative to existing products we want to bring the best technology that have developed in a highly competitive and iterative Chinese market to European customers and make them also enjoy the best-in-class technology and add a more affordable prices in fact our cheapest product selling in Europe is actually comparable in ter uh price to the model y from Tesla and our other products actually more expensive than that so we're actually providing products based on what we believe are a value proposition with technology design and quality so with that I think you know we would love to have the ability to access uh the European market uh access the customers who are embracing new technology embracing the energy transition embracing products that can help you know the the the green agenda at the same time I think you know we also as a young company has Global aspirations we want to be like Mercedes we want to be like Toyotas might 50 60 years ago like the Koreans 30 40 years ago to build a global business over time and would like to have environment that's conductive to that um orinus I would like to ask you I mean Volkswagen is in deep trouble in Germany I'm sure it's taking up a lot of your time right now as well and then you had to put out a profit warning as as well your shares dipped instantly um what is the structural challenge that European automakers particularly German auto makers are not meeting appropriately because they are just about making the top 10 when it's um about EV Vehicles there are two things going on in China uh from from my point of view and you described one of them but let's start on the macro level um yes we have the biggest footprint in the premium luxury segment in China and if you look at our market share development over the last I don't know 18 months or so uh not only have we defended market share in some cases we've actually built our market share in the upper segments of of the Chinese car market and you can ask so what's the problem then everything's fine right what's happening in China is uh we have on the consumer side in terms of consumer sentiment and also on the part of um of the entrepreneurs we have a very I'm going to put it mildly subdued atmosphere which means uh the confidence in the future you can see it in the savings rate now being above 30% I mean it's it's unbelievable the sentiment right now on most entrepreneurs and consumers that are buying goods in the higher end higher expensive capital goods or even luxury goods uh is very cautious so that part you're even nodding your head you know that you could be a potential customer for Mercedes um that market has been shrinking at a worrying worryingly rate uh we know about the restructuring of the real estate sector for many people in the US you have your 401k for your retirements in China you have an apartment if the equity value of that apartment over the last 24 months has gone down by 30% you don't feel flush you don't go out and buy an class I speak a lot to entrepreneurs such such as you and talk to them they're all waiting and watching now we saw last week that the government put out for by Chinese standards a very unusual move something that many of the western economic advisers have been asking for you need to do something about your demand side you need to start building confidence you need to you need to break through this confidence crisis and get people to consume again and not just look at the production side of of things I saw the stock exchange went up uh by 20% inside a few days and one of my friends in Shanghai said oh I'm at the mall here there's a there's a line in front of blis Vuitton it seems to be working and I was writing back and said well I hope there's a line in front of the Mercedes store uh uh next door C can China break that confidence crisis that is the most important thing for us from a business point of view in the short to midterm in the long term the most important thing for us is our competitiveness can we in this most competitive market in the world make sure that we stay ahead on product innovation technology design all of those things that make a Mercedes-Benz and Mercedes-Benz that's our that's our job and we're investing double digit billions into that and have uh with zero a arrogance uh cautious optimism that we can be in the leading pack of that also in China not just around the world but also in China uh one thing you have to realize also about driving market demand if you're a consumer in China and the entry to to to um middle sector actually an electric vehicle for the consumer is cheaper to buy than a combustion vehicle even though the cost structure is higher it's strange it's a Darin istic like price War Market purification and many of those players that are around now many of those are not going to be around five years from now in that market consolidating phase you have cash burn and value destruction that even affects companies that sit at the upper end of the pyramid because you cannot release yourself from the market that's the situation but it's not the situation to sit back and go like and then be paralyzed you must uh control your nerves keep on investing keep on innovating and make sure at the end of that darbinian battle that you're one of the combatants that are left and that's what we're focusing on just to fact check there's two G-Class Vehicles outside there's still a waiting list for those I guess absolutely if I could afford it I would have used this opportunity of course um but that raises of course the question of the bigger picture of the infrastructure that and and that you're operating in and that you're putting products into because your your point is we are essentially feeling the effects of of a darnis um comp comption that's fiercely taking place in China as well so um what's your advice to this key industry that makes up 7% of the EU GDP at this moment in time because you've been quite clear in the quote that you gave me that you feel that the auto makers with great tradition great Brands aren't fit for it well I wouldn't say not fit for it but but of course and I wouldn't be able to give advice to the auto industri it's very important industry for Europe for jobs for our compet competitiveness for Prosperity Etc but we also have the bigger picture which is climate and Minister represents the green party and we have a commitment to Future generations to do this transition and the car industry in Europe is not doing it quick enough so the question is what can we do jointly to speed up from the car industry side from the decision maker side from the infrastructure side everything from charging devices to to setting up goals and and making sure that consumers are are incentivized to choose electric vehicles that's the discussion we we should be having and I hope that could continue also I mean I understand that the decision on on Friday is very important obviously but there will be a continuation whatever happens that there will be a discussion with China and this these problems and the problems of of uh competitiveness for the European car industry as a whole will not disappear so they where where where do you want to go I want to take this to the whole question of CO2 neutrality because that's a common goal the EU is working towards and I could actually keep asking questions all day I just want to flag out to everybody I know you all have questions it would just be great if you make yourself seen so we can get your questions asked here as well so please take a moment to consider and then yeah and we're in a moment we'll come to our Young Voices as well but I just want to ask a question first to you Minister harck you are a green politician um you are uh you had launched um essentially a consumer subsidy for buying e Vehicles which then abruptly ended because it essentially was yeah you ran out of cash frankly um and you are at the same time um saying or I I don't know maybe you can map it out here what you feel is most needed or what you will provide for the Auto industry because in the good old days uh someone like Ola kenos there wouldn't be virtual um Auto Summits like you had last week uh there would be physical Summits with Angela Merkel at the chancell and German automakers would come out with one help or the other um you've left that open after this virtual Gathering so maybe you can give us an insight into what step Germany will be taking to create that demand that Ola kenos uh is so craving for yeah but first of all i' like to use also this occasion that to to remind everyone that I would say all of the automotive Industries reduced the prices after the subsidy scheme the German subsidy scheme suddenly was gone that is that was a shame I mean the money was gone there was a constitutional um Court saying that took away 60 billion out of the budget we had planned for that so that's that was that was was still still dropped I mean more or less in the same amount of reduction by the public subsidy scheme the automotive com car automotive um Industries gave the same amount of uh reduction to the customers so if you are saying I won't buy electric vehicle because this um bonus it was called um is gone you're wrong and if you look at the U Opex cost by driving electric vehicle if you do it rightly or normally I would say using a wall box or maybe having your own solar power system on the roof you say money by the year so really you can it's it's cheaper in many cases I have to say it's cheaper to have a electric vehicle than to buy combustion engine still there's um you you you explained it for China I think that is very similar in Europe and also in in in Germany there's an uncertainty which way to go that has also the reason of the political debate but that I think you pointed out very rightly the way for climate neutrality in transportation is clear or we lose the way to climate neutrality in Europe as a whole I mean we the European Union decided that we have to become climate neutral in 2050 Germany 2045 the way or the the the the calculation why there should be only climate neutral cars in 2035 is that to drive a car 15 years so roughly speaking more or less so if you want to have climate neutrality in all sectors in 2050 you need only climate neutral cars coming to the market in 2035 now of course it's not black and white or one zero it takes some time to increase the production capacity that is the meaning of the increase of electric vehicles on European streets from now on till 2035 if we are pushing 2035 away then we're pushing 2050 away there is no climate neut it in 2050 achievable if the transportation sector is not delivering then of course you can argue okay this is only Europe then where's the problem if we become climate neutral 2060 well the problem is that nobody then will hold its promise to become climate neutral so this small question that is part of the political debate before election campaigns or for the European Parliament is really the hitting the core of the question do we stick up to the promise to become climate neutral and of course this promise was not only given by politicians but by the Investments of the companies at least some of the companies invested billions of billions so if you ask Volkswagen now what what is the they have different they have they have some problems in the structure and they have pricing problem and so on but if they have one wish for politicians they are saying stick to the plan stop the the the talking that all our investments are going to shut us because now after you have made the rules you have made the laws you have made the promise also to Future Generations you have to keep the promise this is destroying our business case that is the first answer you get stop questioning what what was decided in a broad Coalition it was the great Coalition social Democrats and conservatives of course my party agreed to that it was across the Asel that this was agreed on and the companies need the trust that this is the still the plan so that is the first thing this cost nothing just stop stupid talking that is that is that is priceless I would say so you agree that that would be part of the solution just have that that that Clarity just the clarity and within the second say within of course we can be pragmatic we need we need flexib you can't have a designed plan that goes over 25 years so that is impossible in reality but we have to keep the goals we have to stick to the gos that is that is imposs that is important I just want to quickly check whether you believe that that is the answer um it it it it's not a 10-second answer uh let me start by saying this he has to decide yes or no on tariffs yeah yeah but he has two days to do that um let me start by saying this I think any Sound business strategy of any Industrial company must have a decarbonization plan I believe it is the better business strategy in our case we call it uh ambition 2039 we want to by the end of the next decade we want our whole Val value chain to be uh net carbon neutral that is what we're gunning for not just making the electric car you have to look at the supply side of things work with your suppliers uh and and and how do you how do you make sure that you engineer CO2 out of that that product but all the way to the product in use so that if you charge at one of the Mercedes charging stations we invest in charging infrastructure as well I mean we don't do that in the current Paradigm we don't have to build any petrol stations they're there uh but in this to avoid a chicken or egg we are also investing in the charging infrastructure to create the confidence with the customer saying oh we got your back this is going to happen so that is fundamental to our business strategy we believe in that no ifs or but not negotiable but one thing we also have to do and this I think is the debate that is going on in Europe right now on the statement that came out of the European Automotive Association and here I kind of I represent the association view as opposed to our Mercedes very very strong ambition what you from time to time learn in a market economy is if you mandate the customer to do something as opposed to incentivize the customer to do something uh it's sometimes difficult to do the equation without the customer so you can then start having a debate uh at the moment the battery electric vehicle take rate in the year 2024 in Europe it has stalled at around 10% it's about the same thing for us in many other markets is below in China it's much higher although I can see a pivot in China for cost reasons away from the fully battery electric vehicle because it's economically difficult to make money with it that more and more of the Chinese players are now going into hybrid either range extenders with smaller batteries or in the case of byd a very large piece of their sales is is is plugin hybrids so the Chinese take like a very pragmatic approach here and even though intellect understand this you got to put a stake in the in the sand but what if the overall inertia of the system the energy the infrastructure the con the consumer sentiment what if that complete inertia does not keep Pace with the ambition the one risk you have and I think this is a debate that we have to have in a pragmatic way without for a second questioning the end destination is if those two two things don't go hand inand do you temporarily destroy your industrial Financial uh strength which is not what's happening in the United States and certainly not in China they don't make these absolutistic political decisions they go with the flow they're on the same Journey they have the same destination certainly China but they don't make those AB absolutistic way do we then stick very rigidly to what we decided f years ago if we notice that the market conditions don't support it that is where the industry say we must have a conversation running a country or running a region is not the same thing as running a company in a company it's a five minute discussion if you see the market discuss the market conditions change you sit there in the Border Room and you go like oh what's going on here we have to make a change politically to admit that your assumption years ago for this particular period in time might have been wrong I think politically that's more difficult but it doesn't make the problem go away and I believe we need to have a constructive fact-based discussion Target tick but maybe we have to make some adjustments along the way and I wouldn't argue that we have not put uh attractive products into the market the European Auto industry has put an enormous amount of product in uh uh in a very short period of time in almost all segments bar the entry segment why because the cost structure does not provide a profitable option yet and I'm sure Oliver Blum would say that if he would sit here and we are putting tens if not triple digit billion into the Next Generation we have never stopped that Mercy in spite of the market conditions we have not stopped we will go full force into the Next Generation and that's my last statement on maybe the consumer sentiment there could be one element here that the consumer is saying well listen to olenius he's praising the next car he's bringing to the market and that's supposed to be so much better than the one that he has now well I'll wait for that so the psychology of that sometimes called the osor effect the psychology of that maybe is also part of this equation uh uh and it's not an easy equation to solve but I do think we need to talk because every single political goal almost that we want to reach is based on our ability to finance it and if we don't have strong industry the tax revenue is not going to be there to finance the rest of the political goals including decarbonization so you cannot do the one policy without having the industrial policy hand in hand and they need to be in sync that is the industry discussion that is going on at the moment I promise not to ask you a yes or no question next year um time for time for our young boys please and please also say who your question is addressed to yes so hello everyone my name is Nick andaya and I'm an Executive MBA candidate from Sydney Australia so for the panels in general I just want to ask um I just want to get your feedback on my question so um I understand that there is a big migration from combustion engine vehicle to electric vehicle however we also have shifting preference um towards uh car ride sharing and also lower car ownership among the younger generation so my question is how can the autom automotive industry not only remain competitive but also grow in this potentially shrinking market and also to continue justify the investment in the industry thank you I'd like you to ask that answer that question Brian very sure um it's it's a very good question because I think if you look at the uh the Car Shar ride usage in China I think it's uh reaching a pretty stable levels in the recent years um and I think also um uh I think the the challenge for uh additional penetration comes from you know basically availability of Labor as well as whether the uh the the the experience purely using car uh share ride is actually comparable to your owning your own Passenger cars I think that there's a few uh um uh factors that could potentially I would say transform uh that current uh uh sort of I would say balance one is actually the advancement of U automas driving technology I think that is actually truly going to be transformative uh when you actually look at car share ride platform combined with automous driving and obviously in some areas already achieving level four or Robo taxi life capabilities I was in the few years if that becomes a commercial reality that will be actually a very important step to unlocking the potential of the platform and also be significantly you know I would say friendly to you know to to environment as well as labor saving the other thing I think it's very important is also um understanding the share Mobility platform itself um how it actually going to continue to um provide the services in China I think uh a number of areas that CA you know as hesitation or concern for growth is like safety security as well you know the uh um the the the operator itself whether the the the the compliance and I think that is something I think uh uh for a large Market in China um you know they actually have to really figure out from the policy perspective and for automakers uh I think uh you know we are working closely to figure out what are the solution we can provide to these platforms for example last year uh what we did at xpen is that we actually purchased the EV assets from DD you know DD obviously the largest Sher Mobility platform in China they were trying to develop a vehicle a electric vehicle for their own platform but realized the difficulty of being a auto manufacturer and then they partnered with us I think they handed over the asset to us and a year later we launched that in a product to the Chinese market and now seeming to become one of the most successful EV launches in the Chinese market so I think collaboration between the automotive manufacturing and the mobility platform actually will yield significant benefit and also help pushing you know obviously the overall you know the technology as well as Automotive advancements we'll be watching how that works out for volksvagen I just want to get one more question from my Young Voices in because you are the people this is all about afternoon my name is Sarah representing escp in Paris and my question to you would be so given the significant challenges electrical Vehicles battery sustainability and then hydrogen inefficiencies in production and problems with Logistics what should be the primary focus of trade and investment strategies in the automotive industry should we prioritize development of one technology over the other or is the hybrid approach the only one path forward thank you H maybe that's a great final question actually to ask all of you um in one sentence which approach should be taken I'll start with Brian I mean I think I I I agree with Ola and and obviously the previous comment is that consumer makes a decision you know whether it's pure electric hybrid or you know other forms you know I think know consumer will consider the total cost of ownership their environmental impact as well as east of use I think at the end uh automakers will only have to you know can take the business forward based on what the consumer Trend tells us so for us I think we are very open to modalities as the consumer Embraces obviously we want to still focus on the path that creates the best efficient and most enal friendly Technologies so whatever the consumer wants you are in the business of also framing the minds of consumers by convincing an electorate that what what they want what they should be wanting so what would your well as Minister for climate action I don't care as long long as climate neutrality becomes reality so there's complete technical openness as part of the government I have to look to the finances and of course if the expectation is that publicly the infrastructure is financed then the room for maneuver is limited so we have to make a decision if we Finance hydrogen uh filling stations or grit Connections in an idle world I would say we do both and maybe a third one as well but in the reality every Euro counts so therefore we look to the markets and my view is that the decision for I call it now normal Mobility so driving to work driving bringing the kids to to sports clubs meeting some friends and maybe two three times a year having longer distances visiting your grandmother 500 kilometers or whatever down south in Germany that will be electric I think that decision is more or less made there might be other examples but they I think prove the general uh General phrase that the basic infrastructure is electric that is not true on that is not true for heavy vehicles and special engines and and and and and many kinds but I think that that that is the that is the customers and the company's decision now and therefore we lay lay the focus on um on charging stations and G G um capacity um just and just to you you probably saw that but Christian Lon German finance minister at this table yesterday called the terorist ridiculous and I quote so we're very curious about that German vote yeah well I agree I I I'm I'm completely against the tariffs but the question is how do we find the best way to overcome the situation right right cilia so returning to that um young vo's question it really is about how to attract the investment for which technology it is and I agree with Minister that the future is electric but then hibrid will be the way to go there probably for for most companies and also what the former young lady said about the new generation I mean young people increasingly are not taking their driving license they they're not buying cars uh so of course it has to be combined with with public investment in in uh in public transport in in buses in in other Alternatives as well in combination to to this Transit and that has to be electric and green as well but hibrid will be a way to to reach that goal Ola you have the final word on this uh the market forces will figure it out uh the Target by 2050 by the Paris agreement is um is is what we're shooting for I agree with what uh Minister hobik said that for passenger cars kind of means the main road right now looks like it's electric uh maybe on commercial vehicles the hydrogen will play a bigger role and and for industrial use and maybe for aircrafts we will also have in in this technology openness uh zero carbon fuels because there is no other technical solution at the moment uh but don't stifle uh creativity and let the market forces figure it out because technologically where we are in 10 years from now could be a different place than we are today so um let the market forces work the only thing I'm completely agree but of course there's a question for the public side to create an infrastructure that the market forces can work that is the only thing I'm saying and if money would P down from the sky no debate but of course now we have uh we have to make tough decisions not stifling creativity that's the thought I would like to thank you all with thank you very much and we've also learned at this table that a leev Level Playing Field can tilt various ways as well a little tilted but balanced oops I'd just like to ask you to remain seated uh for the debate with um l hendri g and president Emanuel macron who should start arrive here soon and it will start in due course thank you very much thank you thank you