it's been two and a half months since Bernard El madeof was picked up and charged with what's believed to be the largest financial fraud in history yet we still don't know much more about the alleged 50 billion scam than what made off initially told the FBI agents who arrested him that there are still no indictments as Federal prosecutors continue to unravel the case and to try and figure out exactly what happened and who all was involved but the proof that it happened can be found in the ruined lives of thousands of victims the one person who knows the most and is willing to talk is Harry maropis the man who figured out made off scheme before anyone else he sat down with us for his only television interview until a few months ago Harry marcoos was an obscure Financial land and mildly eccentric fraud investigator from Boston who most people would never notice on the street my modern Greek hero how you doing but today he enjoys an almost heroic status pursued by journalists and movie producers and honored by colleagues as the man who went to the Securities and Exchange Commission and blew the whistle on Bernie maid off in his $50 billion fraud thank you thank you please take your seats but he seems uncomfortable with all the attention and knows that he is no hero I stand before you a $50 billion [Music] failure how many times did you send material to the SEC May 2000 October 2001 October November and December 2005 then again June 2007 and finally April 2008 so five separate SEC submissions and in spite of all of the things that you did it still ended up in disaster there's nothing to be proud about in this case I feel horrible about the result it's been a total disaster for the victims it began a decade ago when Mar caplus was working for a Boston investment firm his boss told him that Bernard mof a former chairman of the NASDAQ Stock Exchange was running a huge unregistered hedge fund that was producing incredible returns he wanted Harry to reverse engineer its trading strategy and revenue streams so that the firm could duplicate ma off's results he had the patina of being a respected citizen one of the most successful businessmen in New York and certainly one of the most powerful men on Wall Street you would never suspect him of fraud unless you knew the math so I mean you're like a math guy right I've taken all the calculus courses from inal calculus through differential calculus as well as linear algebra and statistics both normal and non-normal how how long did it take you to figure out that there was something wrong it took me 5 minutes to know that it was a fraud it took me another almost 4 hours of mathematical modeling to prove that it was a fraud what were the things that caught your attention it was the performance line as we know that markets go up and down and his only went up he had very few down months only 4% of the months were down months and that would be equivalent to a baseball player in the major leagues batting 960 for a year clearly impossible you would suspect cheating immediately maybe it was just good no one's that good Harry said there were only two plausible explanations either Midol was using Insider information to rack up huge profits or he was running a giant Ponzi scheme so either way he was doing something illegal either way I knew he was going to go to prison in May of 200000 Marco polus took his suspicions about Bernie maid off to the Boston office of the Securities and Exchange commissioner did you have any Financial motive yes he was a competitor of mine in 2000 to 2004 while I was still in the industry and when someone's competing on your playing field who's a dirty player you want him tossed off the field he also thought he might be eligible for a sizable reward if the fraud involved insider trading but that turned out not to be the case in your first letter to the SEC back in 2000 you're a little tentative you say look I have no smoking gun in 2000 it was more theoretical in 2001 it was a little bit more real by 2005 I had 29 red flags that you just couldn't miss on but by 2005 the degree of certainty was approaching 100% over time and with some simple math calculations Mar capus concluded that for made off to execute the trading strategy he said he was using he would have had to buy more options on the Chicago options exchange than actually existed yet he says no one he spoke to there remembered making a single trade with Bernie made off spot I would talk to the people I had trading relationships with and ask did you have a trading relationship with Mr Bernard matov and they all said no we don't think he's for real could you find anybody I found no one that ever traded with Mr matov and I traded with the largest Equity derivatives firms in the world and that's because made off's investment fund never actually made any trades at Le going back to 1993 and probably further a fact confirmed last week at a meeting of madeof investors by the truste charged with liquidating his assets no one knew the depth of the fraud but a lot of people had questions who else figured this out besides you I would say that hundreds of people suspected something was a Miss with the moff operation if you look at who the victims were not you'll notice that the major firms on Wall Street had no money with Mr Manoff I mean you write in the this is the letter I'm quoting from the letter to the Securities and Exchange Commission red flag number 20 made off is suspected of being a fraud by some of the world's largest most sophisticated Financial Services firms and then you list some of the firms yes I do the biggest firms on Wall Street and conversations with people high up in those firms that is correct and the SEC ignored that did they call any of these people all the SEC had to do was pick up the phone they never did if you had Executives at at the biggest investment houses in Wall Street that knew something was wrong why do you think they didn't go to the SEC because people in Glass Houses don't throw stones and self-regulation on Wall Street doesn't work in January 2006 the New York office of the Securities and Exchange Commission finally opened a case File to look into Harry's allegations about Bernie maol despite uncovering evidence that Midol had misled them about his investment activities the the SEC closed the case 11 months later without ever opening a formal investigation the staff said there was no evidence of fraud what I found out from my dealings with the SEC over eight and a half years is that their people are totally untrained in finance they're unschooled most of them are just merely lawyers without any financial industry experience well if the people there aren't trained in Securities work what are they trained in how to look at pieces of paper that the Securities laws require they can check every piece of paper perfectly and find misdemeanors and they'll miss all the financial felonies that are occurring because they never look there even when pointed to fraud they're incapable of finding fraud no one at the SEC would talk to us on the record about Harry marap polis's allegations but one person who seem to have had a high opinion of the agency was Bernie maol I'm very close with The Regulators so I'm not trying to say that they can't you know that what they do is bad as a matter of fact my niece just married one besides his niece's husband who no longer works at the SEC maid off has had long-standing ties to the agency and has been called upon to give advice at this 2007 meeting of a nonprofit group called The Phil octat Center mid off seemed to think the SEC was doing a great job you know in today's regulatory environment it's virtually impossible to to violate rules and this is something that the public really doesn't understand but you it's impossible for you to go UND for a violation to go undetected certainly not for a considerable period of time but don't try and tell that to the Phil oades center today its main benefactor the Betty and Norman Levy Foundation was fully invested in madeof one of dozens of charitable organizations that have been devastated or wiped out made off's customer list single spaced with small type is 162 pages long with victims running the gamut from Hollywood royalty to a Carpenters pension fund in Syracuse New York bu bu Shelley lllo has been forced to put her mother in a Medicaid assisted living facility while she packed up their apartment to move in with a friend all because of Bernie maid off her whole lives were turned upside down by this man that sits in his Penthouse and smirks the same day last week 70 Mi away Len and Marge Forest were leaving their house that they had just sold in sat talk at long Island and were preparing to drive to South Florida to sell their home there they had their money with Bernie made off for 30 years and lost an eight figure family fortune two days before his 80th birthday do you have any money to live on enough I would say for 60 days do you know other people who are in the same situation oh yes we have lot unfortunately and I think probably the thing that tears me up more than anything is the fact that I recommended made off to a number of people and uh and they lost their money and I I'll never stopped feeling responsible for that they were all close family and friends Len forest and his friends thought they were part of a small exclusive group of investors lucky enough to have a connection with Bernie maid off and because they thought they were making 12% a year they weren't inclined to ask a lot of questions Harry marcoos called it the class classic Affinity scam an affinity scam is where you pray on groups that are similar in nature to yourself so I'm Greek if I was going to run an affinity scam I would run it on the Greek American Community here Bernie was Jewish so he ran it on the Jewish community in the United States but that didn't that wouldn't get him enough customers cuz he always needed new money to keep the scheme going over time mid off extended his reach from New York to Palm Beach where he enlisted hundreds of wealthy clients many of them recruited from his own country clubs and he also made connections that gave him on trade to Europe and the hedge fund capital of America Greenwich Connecticut it was here that Bernie made off made some of his biggest deals with large investment firms that were willing to feed him billions of dollars of their clients money to manage and in return Bernie maid off agreed to pay these so-called feeder funds a fortune in Annual fees the largest of the feeder funds was the Fairfield Greenwich group how much money did Fairfield make off burning made off every year hundreds of millions of dollars if you're a feeder fund what are you supposed to do for those hundreds of millions of dollars you're supposed to identify the world's best hedge fund managers and invest only in them and you're supposed to make sure they're not running Ponzi schemes the real steroids here were the feeder funds that's what made it an international Ponzi scheme attorney David boy is one of the most prominent lawyers in the country and is representing Fairfield Greenwich investors who lost near nearly $7 billion when made off went under they're suing the firm for gross negligence claiming it failed to investigate made off thoroughly or monitor his activities as it promised to do in its marketing materials analysis of portfolio composition portfolio stress testing risk management asset verification do you think that really happened no we know it didn't happen because we know all they did was turn the money over to Bernie maid off and they did that for 20 years they did nothing they essentially did nothing except lose their Investor's money and enjoy very luxurious Lifestyles from the money they took out Walter null one of the founding partners of Fairfield grenwich declined to talk to us and has reportedly been lying low with his wife at their Compound on the private island of Mystique but in a statement to 60 Minutes his firm said that it too was a victim of Bernie maof that it had placed too much trust in his then impeccable reputation and in the fact that there had been multiple reviews of maid off by the SEC Mr M off what do you have to say for yourself in the end Harry marus had been right about Bernie mid off he will be going to prison but not because of anything that Harry or the SEC did in a bad economy mid's lies simply collapsed under their own weight no one was investigating Mr madof at the end so he turned himself in before anybody in a position of authority began a serious investigation that's that's typically how the SEC does it they come in after the crime has been committed they toag the victims count the bodies and try to figure out who the crooks were after the fact which does none of us any good Wall Street in shreds the watchdogs Fast asleep bonus stuffed Executives laughing all the way out of the busted Banks it's been some year oh and we left out the Ponzi scheme of Ponzi schemes Bernard made off's untiy little business that built thousands of people out of billions of dollars while The Mastermind is doing 150 years in prison the big question is where did all the money go Irving Picard the courta appointed trustee the Liquidator is searching for the bill ions that disappeared and trying to recover as much as possible from made off's remaining assets it's a daunting and thankless task for while he's suing whoever he can on behalf of the victims he's also suing many of the victims those who he says benefited and should have known they were investing in a house of cards Mr Picard and his chief counsel David Shen have been largely silent about the details of the recovery until tonight last November just before the whole thing collapsed Bernard mof sent out statements to his clients how much were they told they were worth about $ 64.8 billion so the statements were totalized yes absolutely the 64.8 billion that investors thought they had was just an illusion designed by made off to keep investors investing last December the roof fell in Mr mid what would you say to all those people that lost money Mr M Mr mid has no say in the matter if the victims want money back they'll have to go through Mr peard the decider and his blood hound Mr Shia how much real money do you think went into the whole scheme I'd say about 36 billion and about 18 of it went out before the collapse and 18 of it's just missing and that $18 billion is what we're trying to get back so for the last N9 months Picard and his team have been on a Global treasure hunt the first step liquidation made off boats his art even his seasoned tickets to the New York Mets plus Bernie's various homes all sold or about to be sold with the US Marshall as real estate pitch man your eyes are drawn directly to the chandelier which is probably worth a pretty penny they didn't exactly hide their wealth did they they did have the house in in Palm Beach they had a place in Monto they had apartment here in Park Avenue in the city all of which are the accouterments of great wealth but it wasn't an extraordinary lifestyle how much is all that total according to the government it's over $50 million just a drop in an oversized bucket nothing close to what investors lost so Picard and his team continue to follow the money they started here this was the seene of the crime made off New York offices an impressive landscape of emptiness his desk was here and close by perhaps a work of art that sums up the entire story it was called the soft screw and it was about four four I guess four to 6 feet high and it was sitting right here and sitting on top of the world was made off himself he was much like The Wizard of Oz just hiding behind this wall and no one could quite penetrate it but they sort of really liked the results as far as you've been able to find out was he ever legitimate no it was never legitimate and I think he told the truth which he's not capable of he would then say yes I started out as a crook and I ended up as a crook and a crook who looked after his family Picard's team Unearthed records showing made off sons Mark and Andrew who ran a legitimate trading operation and made off's brother Peter the chief compliance officer took $80 million in compensation over the past 7 years plus Millions more in personal expenses charged to the company private jet rentals ski vacations and Country Club dues even Ruth made off's wife had a company credit card and she charged Millions too on everything from shopping sprees in Paris to movie rentals all courtesy of bernardel madeof securities thank you very much they used the bank account at bis like a personal piggy bank of all the people that should have known his brother and his sons who worked under the same roof with him should have known one would think so did they know my belief is yes they knew and the reason I believe that is they were officers of these companies and directors in certain instances as well and also compliance officers and a very highly regulated environment so I think clearly they would have to have known what was going on given their own personal transactions the longevity of what was happening and their responsibilities as officers of the company M off sons and brother also had accounts with Bernie and their returns were simply spectacular there is a sort of an extraordinary event with Peter his brother after 1995 we only see him putting $14 in and he took out over 16 million we have to take a hard look at that Picard says Mark and Andrew M off withdrew over 35 million doll from accounts that were opened with little or no original investment if they turn out to be Untouchable criminally do you intend to bankrupt them civil whether or not they have a criminal um problem we will pursue them uh as far as we can pursue them and if that leads to bankrupting them then that's what will happen Picard and Shen told us they plan to file suit this week against made off's Sons Mark and Andrew his brother Peter and niece Shauna accusing them of negligence and breach of fiduciary duty in their roles at the company he'll be seeking the return of $198 million that was paid out loaned or transferred to them when his brother took out money or his sons took out money they took customer money can you lay claim to the son's real estate for example I believe that we can uh the money that went to buy these houses under the law is called fraudulent transfers maybe but the made off sons are claiming they're still owed nearly $90 million by their father's bankrupt company Mr mid off Mark maid off and the other family members maintained their innocence and declined our request for an interview I have no com I'm sorry I can't help but in a statement the made off sons say p car's allegations are baseless that they had no prior knowledge of Bernard mof's crimes if you were those sons and you knew what you knew today about where all that money came from wouldn't you be embarrassed to keep that money they should give it all back and if they don't give it all back I think we have an obligation to go get it and take it all back and that includes mother made off Ruth though she's already agreed to Forfeit about 80 million in assets Picard has sued to keep her on a very short leash at the moment any time she spends over $100 she has to check in with you correct she reports it to us at the end of a month and how is she living now very modestly the most significant amount of money that Ruth is currently spending is on lawyers there is an assumption in this case that there is this stash out there whether in Swiss Banks or under the mattress are you assuming there is yes we are yes what kind of money are we talking about we assum it millions and millions of dollars millions and millions isn't nearly enough to cover the billions stolen by Bernie ma but here's where the story takes an odd twist most of the money for victims will not come from the made off family but from some of the victims themselves most people assume because everyone lost money mhm who dealt with made off right not true we've found that there have been quite a few people who have gotten out more than they put in in fact about half of ma off's thousands of victims are what Picard calls net winners people who took out more money than they ever invested with made off we can tell that if Morley put in100 hours and he got out 200 he got $100 of somebody else's money so the guy who's been happily taking 25,000 a year out over say 10 years he's not going to get a dime out of this no not if he took out more than he put in well say if he say he put in an initial 100,000 then he's already got more than he put in he's been overpaid and are you going to try and get the difference perhaps and he's entitled by law to get that difference back it goes by the nicely nasty name of a clawback if any investor took out more more than theyve put in over the past six years Picard can legally demand it back to help victims who didn't take money out for now Picard says made off smalltime winners are not his priority he's focusing on the big Winners who claimed to be innocent victims that some of the big players I believe actually knew exactly what was going on and participated in it piard and Shen have sued several prominent madeof investors saying they knew knew or should have known of the fraud like billionaire investor and philanthropist Jeffrey pauer he got a statement that said his return was 950 now this isn't some unsophisticated rubbe buying these stocks and dealing in this this is a very very sophisticated guy he gets a statement like that that's off the charts he doesn't do anything about that so is he a prime suspect sure I I think not only in terms of the monies that he took out but the records with regard to their relationship the manipulation and backdating of Trades you had to know or someone knew is false the suit claims picau took out more than5 billion in profits since 1995 Picard is also suing another billionaire investor Stanley Chase who withdrew over a billion dollars in profits both Chase and pickow maintain their innocence and would not comment but in court papers Pau characterizes the suit as un supported by facts or logic Sheen says he thinks they knew all along and simply couldn't resist the easy money I think as everyone you know was participating in this and just feeding at this trough of greet at the end of it what they were looking for was it to continue they were hoping it was never going to end so far the trustee and his Council have filed 13 lawsuits seeking the return of nearly $15 billion from the biggest madeof investor in addition 233 clawback notices have gone out to made off friends and family who may have profited from the scheme this is a human tragedy thousands of smaller investors who were living off what they believe were legitimate profits now fear that on top of their lost Nest Egg they may end up owing even more I open my mailbox wondering if this will be the day when the letter arrives she is sympathetic but at the end of the day they're in a Ponzi scheme unfortunately for them so all they get at best is what they put in and the claim that they should be getting something other than that is to suggest that some other resource should exist I'm about the taxpayers coming in in funding this so far peard has found nearly $1.5 billion for the victims fund and he's hoping to get several billion dollars more but even then victims will collect only a tiny fraction of what they lost we don't know how much is there but it's going to be not necessarily Pennies on the dollar but it's it's only you know a little bit more than that uh we're not going to be able to repay everyone not not anything close to what they lost made off it is a name that will live in infamy it's been nearly three years since Bernard made off confessed to running a $65 billion Ponzi scheme the largest financial fraud in history thousands of trusting clients who felt safe investing with a financial genius were swindled he hadn't invested a penny while Midol is serving 150 years in prison his family has had to deal with a consequences of his crimes his wife Ruth divested of most of her great wealth and D ided by a suspicious World their son Mark dead driven to suicide by shame and accusations of guilt their other son Andrew isolated trying to live with the disgrace are they innocent or were they willing partners for the first time since Bernie made off's arrest his son Andrew and wife Ruth speak out about crime punishment and the shame of being a madeof it's a tough name to live with it sure is Ruth made off you feel the shame of course I feel the shame I barely walk down the street without worrying about people recognizing me and Andrew made off from the very beginning of this whole episode uh I've had absolutely nothing to hide and I've been eager I would say almost desperate to speak out publicly and tell people that I'm absolutely not involved Andrew and Ruth made off speak out in the book truth and consequences a more or less tell all aranged by Andrew's fiance Katherine Hooper an attempt to separate the family from the father's crimes is it dismaying for you that no matter what you say people aren't going to believe you I think in many ways it is dismaying but public opinion has to be something that doesn't matter to us what matters to us is the truth it's really hard for people to believe that you didn't know that you must have known I I can't explain it I mean I trusted him why would it ever occur to me that it wasn't legal the business was his reputation was almost legendary why would I ever think that there was something sinister going on it was 1954 when Ruth Alper met Bernie maof in Queens New York I just saw him and I was sort of swept away I think she married him at age 18 they had two sons Mark then Andrew Bernie was building up his money management business a typical middle class family living on Long Island we were both solid parents and valued our family and so so proud of our boys it was a dream really my father was certainly uh present as a dad did he emphasize moral values at all I wouldn't say that we sort of explicitly uh discussed values but we certainly uh lived what I felt was uh a moral life where there was a clear sense of right and wrong exactly when birdie made off went wrong is unclear but as his rep reputation for delivering steady profits grew the moffs began living the good life a penthouse in Manhattan homes in Palm Beach in the south of France and yachts in both places the family became celebrated for philanthropy and made off became a Wall Street Big Shot he was a big figure in the industry he was the chairman of nasd he was constantly being honored as Man Of The Year of this organization and that and that had an an effect on me both sons went to work as Traders for their father's firm in the late 80s a Time authorities believe made off's Ponzi scheme was well underway why would your father want to taint his sons by bringing into a situation that could well spell disaster yeah that's uh that's a great question and that's something that uh that I really agonize over as a son um you know what my father did was uh so horrible and um it's hard for me to hard for me to understand that and I'm not any closer to understanding it now than I was three years ago bernardel made off Securities employed over a hundred people but it seemed like a family business his brother Peter and several cousins worked there mark and Andrew worked on the 19th floor of New York's lipstick building where they legitimately traded Securities for the firm and for outside clients the investment advisory business the pzi scheme was housed two floors below where their father never made any trades at all he was simply creating phony paper statements that showed steady profits for his clients his victims access to the 17th floor was highly restricted you must have been curious about why the 17th floor was such a secret place when you or Mark asked him about his end of the business what did he say it was always a very similar response is you guys have your business to worry about and let me worry about my business and the conversation would end there but people say look there's no way these kids could not have the very least suspected something was going on well keep in mind these were completely separate businesses we were executing hundreds of thousands of transactions a day uh and that kept all of us incredibly busy and uh it just didn't occur to me that he could be involved in any kind of criminal activity Andrew says his father would often walk his clients through the 19th floor to show actual trades being made you feel that the legitimacy of the trading business offered protection to what your father was doing absolutely absolutely that he was using you and your brother absolutely uh it was one of the hardest things to come to grips with in trying to get my head around this was that feeling that I had been used uh almost as a as a human shield by him uh he it's it's unforgivable no no father should do that to their sons the basic concept of Wall Street he says he thought his father was a financial genius there were suspicions about mof's remarkably consistent returns but the SEC repeatedly cleared him of any wrongdoing what troubled Andrew was his father's refusal to discuss any plans for a succession his plan was that he had no plan and he would say that when he dies his end of the business dies and again it was always the the same response that's the way it is and it's not going to change he ruled with an Iron Fist but kept everyone happy with money steady returns for investors and for family an endless stream of cash Andrew and Mark were paid multi-million dollar salaries and the boys went to their father for even more for houses business ventures and divorce settlements Katherine Hooper says the made off benign dictatorship took some getting used to it was an adjustment getting to understand that the boundaries and family were probably going to be different than what I was used to did you feel that Papa mid off was the boss there's no question that he was he could be a bully without question I did you ever suspect along the way either strange Behavior or somebody who was bottling up a secret or any of I never did I never did it didn't seem that way there was nothing that would make me suspect anything sometimes I look back and I think as the years went on he started to get more and more short tempered and maybe he just was having trouble obviously he had to been in the fall of 2008 the world economy began to implode and markets were in freefall big investors wanted out Redemption after Redemption strained made off scheme to its limits on December 10th 2008 with only a few hundred million left of the billions invested with him Midol realized the game was over he told his wife to transfer $10 million from her brokerage account of the firm into a personal checking account did you not wonder what on Earth is happening here $10 million is a lot of money it wasn't atypical for him to put money in an account and take it out I didn't think anything of it actually that same morning Bernard mof called a family meeting in his office and he started to uh try and speak to us and he couldn't he uh sort of fell apart started to cry a little bit um and it was shocking to see that I mean this was not a man who uh was emotional in that way at all he said that maybe it would be easier if we talked uh elsewhere and uh he suggested maybe we should go up to his apartment he called from the office and said I'm coming home with the boys I have something to talk about came in we went into a room four of us and he said I have a confession to make I've been running a Ponzi scheme he said $50 billion he said everything I've been doing is all a big lie he said uh he said the business is a is a Ponzi scheme and uh it firm is completely insolvent and I'm broke and then he just started sobbing and I was uh I was shocked I it was it was I felt like my head exploded I mean I I don't think if he had told me he was an alien I could have been more surprised uh he said that uh firm had liabilities of $50 billion it never occurred to me that his business had anything like that kind of anything like that under management it was it was shocking your mother what was her reaction she looked uh she looked shocked um she uh asked what's a Ponzi scheme it was her first question she didn't even understand that I think it was me who answered and said that uh it means that it's all fake that dad's you know is he's not been doing what he says he's been doing and uh he followed that up and said yes I've been lying to all of you uh all of these years I've been lying to everybody I've been lying to myself he said your brother my brother was uh trembling with rage he was uh absolutely Furious Mark was the first one to stand up and said you know I'm out of here and he stormed out of the room and I uh I immediately followed him and walked out you know there's a lot of people out there who are saying or will be saying as they watch this this is all a charade that this was something that the made offs set up to get himself off the hook this I wish it were I wish it were I wish none of this was real you know I knew absolutely nothing about this uh before my father shared the information with me and it was the most shocking and terrible moment of my life I was as stunned as that day I was kind of paralyzed Bernie got up and said I'm going back to the office was he emotional in any way I don't remember that either he must have been apologetic in any way probably yes I it's sort of a blank now I'm not hedging here I don't I just simply don't remember every detail I was in such a state later that day that evening you both turned up at the office Christmas party I know he phoned me from the office and said we have to go to the office Christmas party so I got myself together and went over there we stayed a half an hour and we just went home the next morning the FBI was there to arrest him at about 700 a.m. Andrew and Mark maid off had turned their father in shortly after the arrest Ruth maof called Andrew pleading with him to co-sign his father's $10 million bail bond and I said you know forget it there's no way I mean how could you even ask that question no I'm not signing that bail bond that's crazy and I was really uh I was very upset that she asked because uh here I had just turned my father into to the authorities uh a day before and now uh it appeared that I was losing my mother as well because she was siding with him I just wanted him to come home I was so afraid afraid of I mean the whole idea going to prison was sort of Unthinkable to me I don't think I ever knew anybody that went to prison Mr made off what do you have to say for yourself bill was eventually guaranteed by Ruth and made off's brother Peter and Bernie was released all of his assets were frozen but in a stunning breach of the court order barring the transfer of property a large and extremely valuable envelope arrived at Andrew M off's apartment I tore open the envelope and and and dumped it out and uh it was absolutely heartbreaking um these were pieces of jewelry that I recognized um things that I had seen my mother wearing over the over the years and uh I couldn't understand how she could do this I mean what were they thinking and uh it wasn't until um three years later that uh I had a chance to ask her what were you thinking when you sent me that jewelry I don't understand and uh she told me that um she and my father uh planned to kill themselves and they put together that package beforehand and sent it out did they try to kill themselves uh yes they did I don't know who whose idea it was but we decided to kill ourselves because it was it was so horrendous what was happening we had terrible phone calls hate mail just beyond anything and I said I can't I just can't go on anymore that's when I packed up some things to send to my sons and my grandchildren I had some lovely antique things and things that I thought they might want I mailed them it was Christmas Eve that added to the whole depression we took pills and woke up the next day what did you take I think ambian how many I don't even remember I had I I took what we had he took more did you leave notes no it was very impulsive and I'm glad we woke up but you must have talked this is a rather large decision to make it wasn't hard at the time it was impulsive and I just wanted out when we come back life in the made off apartment and the death of a son the she scale of Bernard mof's Ponzi scheme shocked the world thousands of individuals Charities and funds that on paper were worth a total of $65 billion were wiped out what's more some of his closest friends and family who had trusted him with their life savings faced ruin 30 seconds day with made off under house arrest the world staked out his penthouse on 64th Street obsessed by what might be happening behind the drawn Shades there were lawyers coming from meetings at the apartment we watched a lot of television and I cooked was there remorse was there yes there wasil or was it sort of self-pity I think in a way he was relieved at the beginning that he was finished but you must have asked yourself a thousand times why you you could have been a perfectly comfortable even wealthy family without question without this I don't understand it I don't it's hard for me to say this but I don't think the money was the part of it I think he got stuck that's what he said and he didn't have the courage to face face things when they might have been able to be faced on a much smaller scale VI mid repeatedly told authorities that he had acted alone did your wife have anything to do with this sir that his family knew nothing but who would believe Bernie made off I remember at some point we were having breakfast and I said to Andrew you know people will think that you were involved and I think it had dawned on him but it really hadn't sunk in and as I said those words he looked at me and said do you really think but that won't last I mean it'll become clear very quickly that we weren't involved did you have any suspicion at all that your mother might have been involved complicit in some no absolutely not I never for a moment felt that my mother was involved in my father's crimes or was aware of it at all the rest of the world was skeptical while countless stories predicted the imminent arrest of Mark Andrew and their uncle Peter do you have anything to say to the investors Ruth maid off seemed to get the worst of it it was said she had office at the firm that she had been the bookkeeper I was the bookkeeper I was the receptionist I worked for Bernie in 1961 when I graduated from college and I left in 1963 when Mark was born and then Andy and I was a stay-at-home mom all those years and later on when the boys started to work there we lived within walking distance and I had an office there where I took care of decorating things and house things and boat bills and managing those things but I was never the bookkeeper after 1963 probably a majority of people can't believe that you can live with someone for 50 years and not know it's hard for me to believe too had you known would you have turned him in I'm glad I didn't it would have been tough but I I would have left whether I turn him in or not I don't know i' like to think I would have but I I I couldn't say I'm being completely honest with you I have to say she was vilified and shunned harassed on the subway the press hounded her with headline after headline her fiercest critics were her own sons from the time of your father's confession I gather you had a certain degree of estrangement from your mother how come well she and I uh barely spoke for uh two years um I struggled tremendously trying to understand her decision to stay by my father's side uh I felt so angry with him so I didn't understand her choice and I struggled with it as did Mor I never thought of leaving I don't know why I didn't I just knew this man for so long whom I loved for so many years I didn't know what else to do but stay there 3 months after his confession mid off pled guilty he was later sentenced to 150 years Ruth made off agreed to forfeit $80 million in all her worldly Goods all the homes boats cars Furniture even made off slippers were auctioned or sold you were allowed to keep 2 and2 million to a lot of people that's a lot of money it is certainly enough for me I've used a lot for legal fees there is a public perception and I'm sure you've heard it that there's got to be a stash somewhere you know I've heard it I've heard it that Bernie made off HIIT it somewhere and that you know about find it you both know about it my understanding of a Ponzi scheme is that when it's over there's nothing left and I certainly don't know stash anywhere though eight employees have been accused of helping with the scheme no family members have been charged but the bankruptcy trustee Irving peard and his lead counsel David shien are demanding that all the ma offs cough up virtually every penny they have claiming they quote knew or should have known about Bernie's crimes would you agree with Mr Shen the lawyer for the trustee when Sheen says you should be ashamed that you should give every penny back well obviously I disagree with uh many of the assertions in the lawsuit that the trustee has filed against me and I'm hopeful that in time we'll be able to reach a settlement and I'll be able to put this behind me Picard says the Suns trading operation received Millions from Bernie's Ponzi scheme he's suing Andrew made off a loan for $60 million virtually every penny he earned borrowed or was given to him by his father over a 10-year period let me ask a really intrusive question how much are you worth as we speak well I was fortunate over the years uh running the business that Mor and I ran uh that generated many millions of dollars in profits and enabled uh my brother and I both uh to live a comfortable lifestyle you haven't answered the question I made in in good years uh several million dollars you know my my life at this point is an open is an open book uh the details of my financial past have been laid bare completely in the lawsuit against me I haven't enjoyed it but uh that's the reality that I live in do you fear ending up broke uh I think that it's a very real possibility but I am prepared to start over again and build myself back up have you talked to your dad I have no comment I'm sorry I can't help but for Andrew's brother Mark the weight of the lawsuits attacked from the media and the shame became unbearable he was absolutely obsessed with the news coverage he would wake up every morning immediately comeb through the regular newspapers and uh that would be followed up by reading blog posts and comments and I would say look you got to shut off your computer you got to stop subjecting yourself to this because uh this is not helpful for you and it's not helpful for me and uh if you keep doing this it's just going to lead to misery and it did on December 11th 2010 the second anniversary of his father's arrest Mark Midol hung himself while his two-year-old son slept in the Next Room he said in his last email no one wants to hear the truth as soon as we saw the caller ID at that early hour on a Saturday morning we both knew what had happened how did you react when you when you heard that it was awful uh I wish I could say I was shocked but I wasn't he had tried to kill himself uh a little more than a year before and uh that was was absolutely devastating and um I had tried to uh talk to him to understand what he was going through it was very painful for me and very difficult for me but I was making it through and to see him struggling uh and and not making it was uh was terrible we were we were very close he was my best friend and uh I I wanted to help him the night before he killed himself there was a awful article in the Wall Street Journal I mean I sort of I understood I was going through those agony of Shame and it was terrible to feel that way we're always so proud of who we were and Bernie's success in the industry it was uh so difficult she blames herself for Mark suicide he' wanted her to cut off all contact with her husband I just wish until my dying day that I had done what he wanted I don't know if it would have made a difference or not but if I could change things at least if I had tried I would have felt a little better I don't know if it would have mattered it's the most awful thing that can happen to anybody suicide of a child after her son's death Ruth maid off told her husband she was finished with him no visits no phone calls that decision led to a Reconciliation of sorts with Andrew that's partly why I'm sitting right here he and Catherine wanted to write this book I thought it would be good if I was a part of it and I agreed because I wanted to reconcile neither Ruth nor Andrew will benefit from sales of the book Catherine Hooper will you live just over there there you miss the apartment not really she lives a simpler life now in a three- room apartment in South Florida but she remains Ruth moff lawful wife of the greatest Financial criminal in history why haven't you filed for a divorce from this man I don't know it doesn't matter to me uh he's going to die in prison I certainly don't want to find another man these days he'll probably see this interview are you concerned about I was thinking about that no I'm not concerned he should hear it believe her or not the thousands of victims may have little sympathy for Andrew and Ruth but it can't be denied that they too are victims of Bernie maid off that's Mark and Andrew and happier times they lost a son and brother and will forever carry the sh name of the made off name what he did to me to my brother and to my family is unforgivable what he did to thousands of other people destroyed their lives um I'll never understand it and I'll never forgive him for it and uh I'll never speak to him again