Exploring George Lucas's Star Wars Mythology

That's how you pass down the meat and potatoes of your society to the next generation. I'm Bill Moyers. Join me for a journey with George Lucas into the mythology of Star Wars. Hang on. Funding for this program is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and by Mutual of America, building America's future through pension and retirement plans, encouraging dialogue and discussion. The Spirit of America. Mutual of America. Nestled into a rolling hillside north of San Francisco, Skywalker Ranch is the command center of George Lucas'filmmaking empire. I first came here to interview Joseph Campbell, a friend and mentor to George Lucas. Twelve years later, I came back, this time to interview the protege. After a 22-year hiatus, George Lucas is back in the director's chair with a new episode in his Star Wars epic, The Phantom Menace. I wanted to know why he thought the Star Wars saga had grasped such a hold on our collective imagination. Over the course of an afternoon, we talked about myths and movies, fathers and sons, fantasy and imagination. Joseph Campbell said that all the great myths, the primitive myths, the great stories have to be regenerated if they're going to have any impact, and that you had done that with Star Wars. Are you conscious of doing that? Are you saying, I am trying? to recreate the myths of old? Or are you saying, I just want to make a good action movie? Well, when I did Star Wars, I consciously set about to recreate myths and the classic mythological motifs. And I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that existed today. What these films deal with is the fact that we all have good and evil inside of us and that we can choose which way we want the balance to go. Star Wars is made up of many themes. It's not just a single theme. One is our relationship to machines, which are fearful but is also benign. They're an extension of the human, not meaning themselves. The issues of friendship and your obligation to your fellow man and to other people that are around you. That you have control over your destiny, that you have a destiny, that you... have many paths to walk down and you may have a great destiny if you decide not to walk down that path your life might not be as satisfying as if you wake up and listen to your inner feelings and realize what it is you have a particular talent for and what contributions you can make to society. One of the appeals of Star Wars originally was that it satisfied our craving to resolve our ambiguities. The good guys were good guys, the bad guys were bad guys. You use color to suggest some of this philosophy. I use color a lot in my films. I'm very conscious of the design of my films. Tatooine is usually our home planet, and there isn't much there except a lot of brown sand. Very, very clean place. Death Star, the Empire, has been painted black or white or gray. There's a lot of gray, but it's colorless. The Emperor, I've put in a splash of red. I mean, red is an aggressive color. When you were writing, did you have all of this in your mind before you got the pencil to the page, or were you making it up as you... Well... Some artists, they see the picture whole, you know, completed. I see the picture in a fog. I know sort of what it looks like. I know what's there. And so what I do is I say I want something, I want a costume that is very regal, very grand, very different from anything we see, but has a lot of cultural history behind it. So I don't want to make something up. I want to use something that is from a living human culture. In this particular case, I was looking for an Asian influence for the planet of Naboo. And so I go to the research library and I said, look all over Asia, even into the Middle East, all the way across into the islands, to... find me unique and interesting ceremonial costumes. I kind of had a rough idea of what it was, but not until I actually... We finished with it, is it clear? It's not like I'm working from a finished thing. I'm working from something where you have a lot of pieces. and it's vague and you try to put it together. Where do these rough ideas come from? Now that I don't know. That's a mystery. But 25 years ago when you cast the original plot, you didn't see these costumes, you didn't see these characters, did you? No, no. This is something I didn't really do until I started to sit down to write this script. You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy? He can see things before they happen. He can help you. The Force is unusually strong with him. I knew the basic story, how Darth Vader got to be Darth Vader. Are you sure about this? Trusting our fate to a boy we hardly know? Anakin Skywalker meets Obi-Wan Kenobi. But I didn't have any details about what it would look like. I knew there would be a slave owner. I didn't know that he would actually run a junk shop and be blue and fly around on funny little wings. Are you conscious when you're doing that of a little bit of David and Goliath here, a little bit of Buck? a little bit of Tarzan or Wizard of Oz here. What happens is that no matter how you do it, when you sit down to write something, all of the influences you've had in your life come into play. The things that you like, the things that you've seen, the observations you made. That's ultimately what you work with when you're writing. And you are influenced by the things that you like, designs that you like, characters that you like, moments that you remember, that you were moved by. It's like trying to compose a symphony in a way. Do you have any sense of where that comes from? I mean, your own creative precincts? The psychology of developing fantasies is a very... interesting and delicate thing. I've come across people that have no imaginations at all, and it's a very interesting... They've become journalists. Well, I was shocked the first time I came across it, because I just assumed everybody had an imagination. And when you confront somebody who doesn't, especially a child, it's a very interesting and profound thing to me. An imagination is a trait. You know, it's like anything else. It's a... It's a talent or it's an ability you have to cope, like dreaming. The underwater world, for example, in The Phantom Menace, looks as if it's a dream. Where did that idea come from? Out of your own fantasy? You know, part of it is where can I go that I haven't been before? And underwater was one of those places I hadn't been before, but I wanted to create a very special, sophisticated, but organic kind of society down there. MUSIC PLAYS We were using a kind of technology which had to be completely worked out. How do these bubbles exist under there? Where do they come from? What do they use for energy? The whole culture has to be designed. What do they believe in? How do they operate? What are the economics of the culture? Most of it doesn't appear in the movie, but you have to have thought it through, otherwise something always rings very untrue or phony. about what it is that's going on. And one of the things I struggle for is to create a kind of immaculate realism in a totally unreal and fantasy world. It's a science that I can make up, but once I make up a rule, Then I have to live with it. Such as? The world according to George. Um... Well, I mean, one of the rules is that there's sound in space. So there's sound in space. I can't suddenly have spaceships flying around without any sound anymore, because I've already done it. And I've established that as one of the rules of the... ...of my galaxy, and I have to live with that. The technology of laser swords, what they can cut through, what they can't cut through. In the past, when I originally wanted to do Star Wars, I had this idea for this really fantastic world and fantasy. the world, but I realized very quickly that I couldn't pull it off, that it was just impossible. I could make spaceships fly, and I could make them fly in ways that nobody had ever done it before, but to get to the next level of creatures... and all these fantasy characters, I couldn't do it. And it really wasn't until we created sort of digital cinema that I was able to suddenly have my imagination go wild. And this enables you to do what, digital? It allows me to create sets that I could not have otherwise. Right there on the computer screen. They're on the computer screen. I can create backgrounds. And since I have a scene that takes place on a landing platform in the middle of a city, well, before digital technology, you just couldn't do it. You couldn't shoot a scene like that. It was just impossible. You couldn't build a set big enough. You couldn't create that reality. It's the same thing with characters, Jar Jar or Watto. You couldn't have a character like that. I mean, Watto is a short little blue character that flies around. You couldn't put a man in a suit and accomplish that. The mesmerizing character for me is Darth Maul. When I saw him, I thought of Satan and Lucifer in Paradise Lost. I thought of the devil in... and Dante's Inferno. I mean, you really have brought from the, seems to me, from way down in our unconsciousness this image of evil, of the other. Well, yeah, we were trying to find somebody who could compete with Darth Vader, who's one of the most famous evil characters now. And so we went back into representations of evil, not only the Christian, but also Hindu and Greek mythology. and other religious icons, and obviously then designed our own character out of that. What did you find when you went back there and all these representations? A lot of evil characters have horns. It's very interesting. I mean, you're trying to build an icon of evil, and you sort of wonder why the same images evoke the same emotions. What emotion do you feel, George, when you look at Darth Maul? I think the first thing you're supposed to react to is fear. You're supposed to go, ooh. You wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley. And I'm not creating a monster that's like, I didn't want to create some ugly, somebody ripped out their intestines and threw them all over their head and you can't watch it. That's mesmerizing. This is something that is more, it works in a different emotional way. It's not repulsive. It's something you should be afraid of. Is the emotion you wanted from him. him different from the emotion you wanted from darth vader it's essentially the same in a different kind of way darth vader was a a composite man i mean he was half machine half man and that's where he lost a lot of his humanity is that he you know he has mechanical legs you know his mechanical arms possibly and he's hooked up to a breathing machine so there's not much actually human left in him this one is all human and i wanted him to be like an alien but i wanted and to be human enough that we could identify with him because he's not a sort of a monster we can't identify with. He's us. Yeah, he's the evil within us. I've had psychotherapists tell me that they use Star Wars sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients, and they've said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader. Well, children love power because... because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power and who's more powerful than Darth Vader. And some will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he's the good guy, but ultimately we all know that Darth Vader is more powerful than he is. Did you feel-And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he's the ultimate father who is all powerful. This is where I disagree somewhat with our friend Joseph Campbell, who said that the young man has to slay his father before he can become an adult himself. It seems to me, and I think you're right on here, that the young man has to identify, has to recognize and acknowledge that he is his father and is not his father. You know, Joe, you're right. We used to talk about the basic issues that create the mystery of life, of birth and death. I like to always add your relationship with your parents. There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you, Duke. You do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive... conflict and bring order to the galaxy. I'll never join you. If you only knew the power of the dark side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father. He told me enough. He told me you killed him. No. I am your father. Oh. No. No. True? That's impossible! Search your feelings, you know it to be true. No! No! Do you know yet what is going to be the transforming of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader? Yeah. You already know that. Yeah, I know what that is. And it's sprinkled throughout this episode. I mean, all of the groundwork's been laid in this episode. And the film... is ultimately about the dark side and the light side. And those sides are designed around compassion and greed. And we all have... those two sides of us, and that we have to make sure that those two sides of us are in balance. I think it's going to be very hard for the audience to accept that this innocent sheriff, almost, of a boy who's playing Anakin Skywalker can ever be capable of the things that we know happen later on. I mean, I'm sure you'll take care of that, but, you know, I look at Hitler and wonder what did he look like at eight years old, or Stalin, or... Well, there's lots of, there's a lot of people like that. I mean... You see them all the time, and that's what I wonder. I wonder how can those people possibly exist? How could they live with themselves? What is it in the human brain that gives us the capacity to be as evil as human beings have been in the past and are right now? You've been probing that for a good while now, 25 years. Have you come to any conclusion? I haven't. Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. Vader, is the dark side stronger? No, no. quicker, busier, more seductive. But how am I to know the good side from the bad? You will know... when you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack. But tell me why I can't-No, no, there is no why. Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions. This movie is very much about a mentor and an apprentice. And I'm wondering, did you have such a mentor when you were growing up? Is this part of the movie an extension of what happened to you? Obviously, it's my first time watching it. first mentor was my father but then you progress with either you know people that are more skilled in a particular area than you are um in film francis coppola became my mentor and and taught me how to write screenplays taught me how to work with actors uh i was much more of a cameraman and a film editor much more on the technical side of things and um you know i think My last mentor probably was Joe. Joseph Campbell. Joe Campbell, who asked a lot of the interesting questions and exposed me to a lot of things that made me very interested in a lot more of the cosmic questions and the mystery. And I've been interested in those all my life, and focused it the way I had once I got to be good friends with Joe. A professor I know said that he recently asked his freshman class how many of them had seen all three of the trilogy. And everyone in the class raised his hand and he said to me, I hope Lucas knows he's mentoring an entire generation. of young Americans. I have a philosophy that we all teach, and we all teach every day of our lives. And it's not necessarily what we lecture. I've discovered kids don't like lectures at all. but it is really the way we live our lives and what we do with our lives and the way we conduct ourselves and once in a while they listen to the lectures so when I make the films I'm very aware of the fact that I'm teaching on a much larger scale than I would just as a parent or somebody walking through life because I have this megaphone anybody in the media has a very large megaphone that they can use They can reach a lot of different people. And so whatever they say, whatever they do, however they conduct themselves, whatever they produce has an influence and it's teaching somebody something. And I try to be aware of what it is I'm saying. What do you make of the fact that so many people have interpreted Star Wars as being profoundly religious? I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious. I see Star Wars as taking... all of the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and more easily accessible construct that people can grab onto to accept the fact that there is a greater mystery out there. When I was 10 years old, I asked my mother, I said, well, there's only one God, why are there so many religions? And over the years, I've been pondering that question ever since, and it would seem to me that the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions are true, they just see a different part of the elephant. Religion is basically a container for faith. Faith is the glue that holds us together as a society. Faith in our culture, our world, whatever it is that we're trying to hang on to, is a very important part of, I think, allowing us to remain stable, remain balanced. I can't. It's too big. Size matters not. Look at me. Touch me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And where you should not. For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere. Yes, even between the land and the ship. And where does God fit into this concept of the universe, in this cosmos that you've created? Is the Force God? I put the Force into the movies in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people. More a belief in God than a belief in any particular... You know, religious system. I mean, the real question is to ask the question. Because if you haven't enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the questions, is there a God or is there not a God, that's, for me, the worst thing that can happen. You know, if you ask a young person, is there a God, and they say, I don't know. You know, I think you should have an opinion about that. Do you have an opinion or are you looking? Well, I think there is a God. No question. What that God is or what we know about that God, I'm not sure. The one thing I know about life and about... The nature of the human race is that the human race has always believed it's known everything. Even the cavemen thought they had it all figured out. They knew everything there was to know about everything, because that's where mythology came from. It's constructing some kind of context for the unknown. So we figured it all out, it was fine. I would say that cavemen... had, you know, on a scale, understood about one. You know, now we've made it up to about five. The only thing most people don't realize is the scale goes to a million. The central epoch of our culture has been the Bible, and it's about fall, wandering, redemption, return. But the Bible no longer occupies that central place in our culture today. More and more people today, young people in particular, are turning to movies for their inspiration, not to organize religion. Well, I hope that doesn't end up being the course that this whole thing takes, because... I think there's definitely a place for organized religion. That's a very important part of the social fabric. And I would hate to find ourselves in a completely secular world where entertainment was passing for some kind of religious experience. One reason one critic said that Star Wars has been so popular with young people is religion without strings attached, that it becomes a very thin base for theology. In fact... Well, it is a thin base for theology. That's why I would hesitate to call the forest God. When the film came out, almost every single religion took Star Wars and used it as an example of their religion. And we're able to relate it to young people and say, and relate the stories specifically to the Bible and relate stories to the Koran and the Torah and things. And so it's like, you know, if it's a tool that can be used to make... make old stories be new and relate to younger people. That's what the whole point was. We downloaded something from your website the other day, and there you were talking about how you wanted the Jedi to be more than just fighters. You wanted them to be spiritual, but you didn't say what you meant by that. I guess they're like ultimate father figures or negotiators. And at this point in time, they're sent out to negotiate a deal. How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands? These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short. They help to put forth answers where people are in the middle of a dispute. Do not defy the Council, Master. Not again. I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan. They aren't an aggressive force at all. They will not go along with you this time. They try to... I don't know. Conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might... Intergalactic therapists. Have you been influenced? By Buddhism because Star Wars came along just about the time there was this growing interest in America and Eastern religions and I Notice in the Phantom Menace the new episode one that they They discover this slave child who has an aura about him. And it reminded me of how the Buddhists go out to look for the next Dalai Lama. Well, there's, again, a mixture of all kinds of mythology and religious beliefs that have been amalgamated into the movie. And I've tried to take the ideas that seem to cut across the most cultures, because I'm fascinated by that. And I think that's... That's one of the things that I really got from Joe Campbell was that what he was trying to do was find the common threads through the various... mythology through the religions. One of the comparisons that came to mind just when I was re-watching the series recently is when Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire by offering him all that the empire has to offer. I was taken back in my own youth to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world if only he would turn away from his mission. Right. Was that conscious in your mind? Well, yeah. I mean, that story also has been retold, the temptation. I mean, Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. I didn't want to invent a religion. I wanted to try to explain in a different way the religions that have already existed. You're creating a new myth. Well, I'm telling an old myth in a new way. I'm just taking the... the core myth and I'm localizing it. As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet, but I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place. This is the... You know, this is, again, part of the globalization of the world we live in. The average human being has much more awareness of the other cultures that exist, coexist with them on this planet. And that certain things... go across cultures, and entertainment is one of them, and film and the stories that I tell cut across all cultures and seen all around the world. So what lessons do you think they're taking away from watching Star Wars in Italy and Malaysia and South America? One of the main themes in the film is.... Having organisms realize that they must live together, and they must live together for mutual advantage. Not just humans, but all living things and everything in the galaxy is part of a greater whole. Now let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from. I saw part of the message you... I seem to have found it. General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help... him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. How do you explain the power of film to get inside us? Well, I think film is a very modern art form. It takes all of the, you know, all of the aspects, the senses, really, of other art forms, be it painting, music, literature, you know, drama, theater, and puts them into one art form. There's something that happens in a darkened theater when the right moment occurs. You know, when you've seen a picture, it connects with you in a particular kind of way. A good... novel operates again you have this little voice going on you're saying you know this has something to do with me in my life art is a is a very human thing because it relates I think to the issues of beauty and not just visual beauty but intellectual beauty why what is beauty and what does beauty trigger in our brain and why do we why do certain colors and things things mean certain things to us, and certain sounds, certain chords, make us feel happy or sad. And how is it when you take all these things together and recreate reality in a way that you can evoke sadness or crying or laughter? It's a very interesting human experiment. And I'm fascinated by every day. I mean, I'm just completely... amazed at how the thing works. I don't, you know, I know quite a bit about it, but I know I know very little about it. Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him. I found an unforgettable part of it being the emphasis of Kenobi on intuition, on urging Luke Skywalker to feel what he sees, to depend on the second side, this insight, which is a very powerful Buddhist notion. This time, let go your conscious self. An act on instinct. With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am I supposed to fight? Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings. You see? You can do it. Why is it so important to you, as it is in your films, to listen to your inner feelings? It's an issue of quieting your mind so you can listen to yourself. And, as Joe would say, follow your bliss. It's to follow your talent. ...is one way to put it. That's the way I see it. I went... you know, the hardest thing to do when you're young is to figure out what it is you're gonna do. And you'll never know what it is you're gonna do. But if you follow the things that you enjoy... I'm not sure anybody really enjoys making money. They may enjoy what they do after they've made it, but they don't enjoy the process. If you can find something that you actually enjoy the process, then you've found your bliss. When did you know what it was for you? when I discovered movies. Which was? Which was when I was in college, where I could be in a psychology class or be in an anthropology class. Suddenly I loved being in school. I loved learning this stuff. I was either going to go to one college where I was going to be basically an anthropology major. I was going to go to another college and be an art student. And then I ended up going to another college and being a film student. But I truly believe that no matter which of those routes I'd have taken, because I was interested in all those things, I would have ended up right back where I am now. Because I... I certainly had no intention of making theatrical films when I went into the film business. I loved making documentary films, and I loved making avant-garde non-story films. And here I found myself, and I hated writing. So now I found myself writing. I found myself running three companies, which is the last thing in the world I wanted to do. I enjoy it, but I've walked down a path. I followed the things that I thought... Inside were the things I should be doing. You make it sound so easy, you're so relaxed and so laid back, but was there a struggle? Well, I didn't... There wasn't really a struggle. Because I think when you stumble, it's like falling in love. You know, when you... and falling in love is tricky. Because sometimes you can be infatuated with somebody, or you can be sexually aroused by somebody, but that isn't falling in love. And you sort of have to move away those... momentary things that come and go within days or hours and try to say this is the real thing. When you fall in love, you pretty much know it. When I fell in love with movies, I definitely knew it. How did you know it? I was just in a place where I was very happy. When you get into something that you like and you say, this is great, this is something I want to do, it takes a lot of strength to stick with it. Because a lot of the times it's not what society deems is a worthy thing to do and not what your parents particularly want you to do. My father wanted me to go into the stationery business and run an office equipment store. Was that a struggle, not to do it? It wasn't a struggle because I knew immediately that that wasn't what I wanted. Is that what he did, run a stationery store? Yeah, and he built it up for me and for me to take over. And he was pretty good. pretty much devastated when I refused to get involved in it. What did he say? Well, he said, well, you'll come back and, you know, you'll see that making your way in the world wasn't that easy. How did you tell him? Well, I basically got, that was probably the biggest disagreement we ever got into. And I got really mad at him and just basically said, you know, I'll never work at a job where I have to do the same thing over and over again every day. And he just didn't want to hear that. And I knew. that that wasn't my, you know, he said, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's a good job. It's a good business. You can make a lot of money. You'll be successful. And I said, I don't want that. I just don't want to do it. You know, he worked very hard to be able to give this to me. And so for me to refuse it was a big deal. And he thought that I would go off and starve to death as some kind of artist somewhere, living in a garret. Is he still living? No, no, he died a number of years ago. But he did, he died after I did Star Wars. So he was very proud of me at the end. And I did the only thing you have to do. Uh... In the end, you only have to accomplish one thing in life, and that is to make your parents proud of you. If you're healthy and you can take care of yourself, and you're a good person, I mean, you contribute to society and not take away, that's all your parents want in the end. Now, go, my son. Leave me. No, you're coming with me. I'll not leave you here. I've got to save you. You already have. Look, you were right. You were right about me. I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a journalist, but it does seem to me that the scenes of Luke and his father... There's something of George Lucas in there. Some memory trace there. Oh yeah. Father. No matter how you write, you write... from your own emotions and your own feelings. There's two sides to the Redeemer motif that I've got in the Star Wars films, which is that ultimately, Vader is redeemed by his children. And especially having children, I believe that. I believe that you are redeemed by your children because that's what life is all about, is procreating and raising children. And it should bring the best of you out. Are you going to be prepared for that moment when your daughter says, your older daughter is about to go off already? and say, this is the way I want to go, Dad. I think there is a point where even though you love your children a great deal, you must let go, which is actually what The Phantom Menace is about. The Phantom Menace is about letting go? It's about letting go. In what sense? In the sense that you have this young boy who's 10 years old who has to leave his mother and go off on his own, and the mother has to let him go because otherwise he... he would be a slave the rest of his life. I can't do it, Mom. I just can't do it. Annie. Will I ever see you again? What does your heart tell you? I hope so. Yes. I guess. Then we'll see each other again. I will come back and free you, Mom. I promise. Now, be brave and don't look back. Don't look back. At some point you do have to become an independent person. And it's about learning to let go of your needs, so to speak, and think of the needs of others. So Star Wars is, yes, it's about cosmic, galactic, epic struggles, but it's at heart about a family, the large myth set in a local family. Well, yeah, most... Yeah. miscenter around characters and a hero, and it's about how you conduct yourself as you go through the hero's journey, which everyone goes through. It's especially relevant when you go through this transition phase. Most societies it's when you're 13 or 14, in our societies it's sort of 18 to 22, somewhere in there, that you must let go of your past. and must embrace your future and in your own self, by yourself, figure out what it is, what path you're going to go down. Is it fair or accurate to say, in effect, that Star Wars is your own spiritual quest? Well, I would say there's part of that. I'd say part of what I do when I write is ponder a lot of these issues. I have ever since I can remember. And obviously some of the conclusions... conclusions I've come to are, you know, I use in the films. Some critics scoff at this whole notion of a deeper layer of meaning to what they call kid stuff. But I come down on your side, on Joe Campbell's side, when he says kid stuff is the stuff dreams are made of. Yeah, it's much harder to actually write for kids than it is to write for adults. Why? Well, because they're... they're more susceptible to anything that doesn't ring true. And on one level, they will sort of accept, they don't have constraints, so they can open their minds up and they're not locked into a particular dogma. And at the other side, if something doesn't make sense to them, They're much more critical of it, but also like to think of things as being right and wrong. It's too difficult for them to rationalize their own behavior in that kind of a world. So when you write, do you see your audience and do you see a 13-year-old boy? I don't... I see my audience and my audience is me. You know, I make these films for myself more than I make them for anybody else. I mean, I'm lucky that the things I believe in and the things that I enjoy and the things that entertain... entertain me, entertain a large population. Sometimes they don't. I mean, I've made a bunch of movies that nobody's liked, so that doesn't always hold true. But I certainly wasn't out to become successful. It happened. You're financing your own movie. I'm financing my own movies and it allows me the freedom to have my own my own vision be accurately portrayed on the screen and I will You know be successful or unsuccessful based on how people relate to that vision But I don't have a lot of other people coming in and telling me really what to do. So I have bought my freedom But I also bought the freedom for everybody works for me because I think the core issues that I'm dealing with are if they were valid Two thousand years ago. They've got to still be valid today, even though they're not in fact fashion. Why are they out of fashion? Because I think it's harder, you know, the world we live in is more complex. And I think that a lot of those moralities have gotten to be grayed to the point where they don't exist anymore. But those issues are still there in most people's minds. What do You know, I mean, most people look at that and say, how corny. But, you know, the issues of friendship and loyalty are very, very important to the way we live our lives. But it's not common knowledge among young people. You know, they're still learning. They're still picking up on it. up ideas. They're still using these ideas to shape the way they're going to conduct their life. And you need to tell the same story over and over again every generation, so that generation gets it. And I think we've gone for a few generations where a lot of of the sort of more basic stories have fallen by the wayside. And what do stories do for us in that sense? What are myths? They try to show us our place. Myths help you to have your own hero's journey, find your individuality, find your place in the world, but hopefully remind you that you're part of a whole and that you must also be part of the community and think of the welfare of the community above the welfare of yourself. I hear so many young people people today talk about a world that's emptied of heroism, where there are no more noble things to do. What do you say to them? Everybody becomes, everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives. And you can either help somebody, you can... Be compassionate toward people. You can treat some people with dignity, or not. And one way you become a hero, and the other way, you know, you're part of the problem. And it's not a grand thing. You know, you don't have to get into a giant laser sword fight and blow up three spaceships to become a hero. I mean, it's a very small thing that happens every day of your life. Essentially, isn't Star Wars about transformation? Well, it is about transformation. And ultimately, it will be about transformation of how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also... It's also about transformation of how his son came to find the call. Luke works intuitively through most of the movie until he gets to the very end. Everything after that is very intuitive. He goes back and forth with his emotions about fighting his father and not fighting his father. Your hate has made you powerful. Fulfill your destiny. Take your father's place at my side. Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. Finally he comes to that decision to say, no, this is what I have to do, I have to simply throw my weapon down. And it's only that way that he's able to redeem his father, which ultimately is the issue. It's not as apparent in the first three movies, but when you see the movies... I haven't made yet, that the issue of how do we get Darth Vader back is really the central issue. How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind. And had a good heart. Ultimately, doesn't it take, particularly in religion, a leap of faith, what Kierkegaard's leap of faith? Yes, yes, definitely. And that's... You'll notice Luke uses that quite a bit through the films, not to rely on his senses, not to rely on the computers, not to rely on faith. that is what use the force is is a leap of faith that there are mysteries and powers larger than we are and you have to trust your feelings in order to to access these things your friend Joseph Campbell called it the perfect eye to see with mm-hmm how do you develop that I Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't know whether I have that eye, but... Oh, you do. People, your colleagues tell me you're always making quick decisions, good or bad. You're making intuitive decisions very quickly. I'm making intuitive decisions because I can see the picture in my head, even though it's foggy. And I know instantly whether this fits in there or doesn't. You have to work to keep nurturing your imagination, to keep feeding that interior pool from which these ideas and images. I've never had a problem with that. I mean, my imagination runs wild. It's, you know, people say, well, you know. You're going to run out of stories. I don't think I'll ever run out of stories. I have more stories than I can possibly do in my lifetime. I'm interested in more things to do than I can possibly do in my lifetime. I'm now beginning to confront the fact that the... The amount of time I've got is less and less that I... More and more things are going to have to go by the wayside, and I'm going to have to focus more on the things that really are meaningful to me. You know, because even if I have 30 or 40 years left, it's not enough. Funding for this program is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and by Mutual of America, building America's future through pension and retirement plans, encouraging dialogue and discussion. The Spirit of America. Mutual of America.

That's how you pass down the meat and potatoes of your society to the next generation. I'm Bill Moyers. Join me for a journey with George Lucas into the mythology of Star Wars.

Hang on. Funding for this program is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and by Mutual of America, building America's future through pension and retirement plans, encouraging dialogue and discussion. The Spirit of America. Mutual of America.

Nestled into a rolling hillside north of San Francisco, Skywalker Ranch is the command center of George Lucas'filmmaking empire. I first came here to interview Joseph Campbell, a friend and mentor to George Lucas. Twelve years later, I came back, this time to interview the protege. After a 22-year hiatus, George Lucas is back in the director's chair with a new episode in his Star Wars epic, The Phantom Menace. I wanted to know why he thought the Star Wars saga had grasped such a hold on our collective imagination.

Over the course of an afternoon, we talked about myths and movies, fathers and sons, fantasy and imagination. Joseph Campbell said that all the great myths, the primitive myths, the great stories have to be regenerated if they're going to have any impact, and that you had done that with Star Wars. Are you conscious of doing that? Are you saying, I am trying? to recreate the myths of old?

Or are you saying, I just want to make a good action movie? Well, when I did Star Wars, I consciously set about to recreate myths and the classic mythological motifs. And I wanted to use those motifs to deal with issues that existed today.

What these films deal with is the fact that we all have good and evil inside of us and that we can choose which way we want the balance to go. Star Wars is made up of many themes. It's not just a single theme.

One is our relationship to machines, which are fearful but is also benign. They're an extension of the human, not meaning themselves. The issues of friendship and your obligation to your fellow man and to other people that are around you.

That you have control over your destiny, that you have a destiny, that you... have many paths to walk down and you may have a great destiny if you decide not to walk down that path your life might not be as satisfying as if you wake up and listen to your inner feelings and realize what it is you have a particular talent for and what contributions you can make to society. One of the appeals of Star Wars originally was that it satisfied our craving to resolve our ambiguities. The good guys were good guys, the bad guys were bad guys.

You use color to suggest some of this philosophy. I use color a lot in my films. I'm very conscious of the design of my films.

Tatooine is usually our home planet, and there isn't much there except a lot of brown sand. Very, very clean place. Death Star, the Empire, has been painted black or white or gray. There's a lot of gray, but it's colorless.

The Emperor, I've put in a splash of red. I mean, red is an aggressive color. When you were writing, did you have all of this in your mind before you got the pencil to the page, or were you making it up as you...

Well... Some artists, they see the picture whole, you know, completed. I see the picture in a fog. I know sort of what it looks like.

I know what's there. And so what I do is I say I want something, I want a costume that is very regal, very grand, very different from anything we see, but has a lot of cultural history behind it. So I don't want to make something up. I want to use something that is from a living human culture.

In this particular case, I was looking for an Asian influence for the planet of Naboo. And so I go to the research library and I said, look all over Asia, even into the Middle East, all the way across into the islands, to... find me unique and interesting ceremonial costumes. I kind of had a rough idea of what it was, but not until I actually...

We finished with it, is it clear? It's not like I'm working from a finished thing. I'm working from something where you have a lot of pieces. and it's vague and you try to put it together.

Where do these rough ideas come from? Now that I don't know. That's a mystery. But 25 years ago when you cast the original plot, you didn't see these costumes, you didn't see these characters, did you?

No, no. This is something I didn't really do until I started to sit down to write this script. You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?

He can see things before they happen. He can help you. The Force is unusually strong with him. I knew the basic story, how Darth Vader got to be Darth Vader.

Are you sure about this? Trusting our fate to a boy we hardly know? Anakin Skywalker meets Obi-Wan Kenobi. But I didn't have any details about what it would look like. I knew there would be a slave owner.

I didn't know that he would actually run a junk shop and be blue and fly around on funny little wings. Are you conscious when you're doing that of a little bit of David and Goliath here, a little bit of Buck? a little bit of Tarzan or Wizard of Oz here. What happens is that no matter how you do it, when you sit down to write something, all of the influences you've had in your life come into play.

The things that you like, the things that you've seen, the observations you made. That's ultimately what you work with when you're writing. And you are influenced by the things that you like, designs that you like, characters that you like, moments that you remember, that you were moved by. It's like trying to compose a symphony in a way.

Do you have any sense of where that comes from? I mean, your own creative precincts? The psychology of developing fantasies is a very... interesting and delicate thing. I've come across people that have no imaginations at all, and it's a very interesting...

They've become journalists. Well, I was shocked the first time I came across it, because I just assumed everybody had an imagination. And when you confront somebody who doesn't, especially a child, it's a very interesting and profound thing to me. An imagination is a trait.

You know, it's like anything else. It's a... It's a talent or it's an ability you have to cope, like dreaming.

The underwater world, for example, in The Phantom Menace, looks as if it's a dream. Where did that idea come from? Out of your own fantasy? You know, part of it is where can I go that I haven't been before? And underwater was one of those places I hadn't been before, but I wanted to create a very special, sophisticated, but organic kind of society down there.

MUSIC PLAYS We were using a kind of technology which had to be completely worked out. How do these bubbles exist under there? Where do they come from? What do they use for energy?

The whole culture has to be designed. What do they believe in? How do they operate?

What are the economics of the culture? Most of it doesn't appear in the movie, but you have to have thought it through, otherwise something always rings very untrue or phony. about what it is that's going on.

And one of the things I struggle for is to create a kind of immaculate realism in a totally unreal and fantasy world. It's a science that I can make up, but once I make up a rule, Then I have to live with it. Such as? The world according to George. Um...

Well, I mean, one of the rules is that there's sound in space. So there's sound in space. I can't suddenly have spaceships flying around without any sound anymore, because I've already done it.

And I've established that as one of the rules of the... ...of my galaxy, and I have to live with that. The technology of laser swords, what they can cut through, what they can't cut through.

In the past, when I originally wanted to do Star Wars, I had this idea for this really fantastic world and fantasy. the world, but I realized very quickly that I couldn't pull it off, that it was just impossible. I could make spaceships fly, and I could make them fly in ways that nobody had ever done it before, but to get to the next level of creatures... and all these fantasy characters, I couldn't do it. And it really wasn't until we created sort of digital cinema that I was able to suddenly have my imagination go wild.

And this enables you to do what, digital? It allows me to create sets that I could not have otherwise. Right there on the computer screen. They're on the computer screen. I can create backgrounds.

And since I have a scene that takes place on a landing platform in the middle of a city, well, before digital technology, you just couldn't do it. You couldn't shoot a scene like that. It was just impossible. You couldn't build a set big enough. You couldn't create that reality.

It's the same thing with characters, Jar Jar or Watto. You couldn't have a character like that. I mean, Watto is a short little blue character that flies around.

You couldn't put a man in a suit and accomplish that. The mesmerizing character for me is Darth Maul. When I saw him, I thought of Satan and Lucifer in Paradise Lost.

I thought of the devil in... and Dante's Inferno. I mean, you really have brought from the, seems to me, from way down in our unconsciousness this image of evil, of the other.

Well, yeah, we were trying to find somebody who could compete with Darth Vader, who's one of the most famous evil characters now. And so we went back into representations of evil, not only the Christian, but also Hindu and Greek mythology. and other religious icons, and obviously then designed our own character out of that. What did you find when you went back there and all these representations? A lot of evil characters have horns.

It's very interesting. I mean, you're trying to build an icon of evil, and you sort of wonder why the same images evoke the same emotions. What emotion do you feel, George, when you look at Darth Maul?

I think the first thing you're supposed to react to is fear. You're supposed to go, ooh. You wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley. And I'm not creating a monster that's like, I didn't want to create some ugly, somebody ripped out their intestines and threw them all over their head and you can't watch it.

That's mesmerizing. This is something that is more, it works in a different emotional way. It's not repulsive. It's something you should be afraid of. Is the emotion you wanted from him.

him different from the emotion you wanted from darth vader it's essentially the same in a different kind of way darth vader was a a composite man i mean he was half machine half man and that's where he lost a lot of his humanity is that he you know he has mechanical legs you know his mechanical arms possibly and he's hooked up to a breathing machine so there's not much actually human left in him this one is all human and i wanted him to be like an alien but i wanted and to be human enough that we could identify with him because he's not a sort of a monster we can't identify with. He's us. Yeah, he's the evil within us.

I've had psychotherapists tell me that they use Star Wars sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients, and they've said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader. Well, children love power because... because children are the powerless.

And so their fantasies all center on having power and who's more powerful than Darth Vader. And some will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he's the good guy, but ultimately we all know that Darth Vader is more powerful than he is. Did you feel-And as time goes on, you discover that he is more powerful because he's the ultimate father who is all powerful.

This is where I disagree somewhat with our friend Joseph Campbell, who said that the young man has to slay his father before he can become an adult himself. It seems to me, and I think you're right on here, that the young man has to identify, has to recognize and acknowledge that he is his father and is not his father. You know, Joe, you're right.

We used to talk about the basic issues that create the mystery of life, of birth and death. I like to always add your relationship with your parents. There is no escape.

Don't make me destroy you, Duke. You do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training.

With our combined strength, we can end this destructive... conflict and bring order to the galaxy. I'll never join you. If you only knew the power of the dark side.

Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father. He told me enough. He told me you killed him.

No. I am your father. Oh. No.

No. True? That's impossible!

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. No! No! Do you know yet what is going to be the transforming of Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader? Yeah.

You already know that. Yeah, I know what that is. And it's sprinkled throughout this episode.

I mean, all of the groundwork's been laid in this episode. And the film... is ultimately about the dark side and the light side. And those sides are designed around compassion and greed.

And we all have... those two sides of us, and that we have to make sure that those two sides of us are in balance. I think it's going to be very hard for the audience to accept that this innocent sheriff, almost, of a boy who's playing Anakin Skywalker can ever be capable of the things that we know happen later on.

I mean, I'm sure you'll take care of that, but, you know, I look at Hitler and wonder what did he look like at eight years old, or Stalin, or... Well, there's lots of, there's a lot of people like that. I mean...

You see them all the time, and that's what I wonder. I wonder how can those people possibly exist? How could they live with themselves? What is it in the human brain that gives us the capacity to be as evil as human beings have been in the past and are right now?

You've been probing that for a good while now, 25 years. Have you come to any conclusion? I haven't. Yes, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force.

But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side of the Force are they.

Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. Vader, is the dark side stronger? No, no. quicker, busier, more seductive.

But how am I to know the good side from the bad? You will know... when you are calm, at peace. Passive.

A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack. But tell me why I can't-No, no, there is no why.

Nothing more will I teach you today. Clear your mind of questions. This movie is very much about a mentor and an apprentice. And I'm wondering, did you have such a mentor when you were growing up? Is this part of the movie an extension of what happened to you?

Obviously, it's my first time watching it. first mentor was my father but then you progress with either you know people that are more skilled in a particular area than you are um in film francis coppola became my mentor and and taught me how to write screenplays taught me how to work with actors uh i was much more of a cameraman and a film editor much more on the technical side of things and um you know i think My last mentor probably was Joe. Joseph Campbell. Joe Campbell, who asked a lot of the interesting questions and exposed me to a lot of things that made me very interested in a lot more of the cosmic questions and the mystery.

And I've been interested in those all my life, and focused it the way I had once I got to be good friends with Joe. A professor I know said that he recently asked his freshman class how many of them had seen all three of the trilogy. And everyone in the class raised his hand and he said to me, I hope Lucas knows he's mentoring an entire generation.

of young Americans. I have a philosophy that we all teach, and we all teach every day of our lives. And it's not necessarily what we lecture.

I've discovered kids don't like lectures at all. but it is really the way we live our lives and what we do with our lives and the way we conduct ourselves and once in a while they listen to the lectures so when I make the films I'm very aware of the fact that I'm teaching on a much larger scale than I would just as a parent or somebody walking through life because I have this megaphone anybody in the media has a very large megaphone that they can use They can reach a lot of different people. And so whatever they say, whatever they do, however they conduct themselves, whatever they produce has an influence and it's teaching somebody something.

And I try to be aware of what it is I'm saying. What do you make of the fact that so many people have interpreted Star Wars as being profoundly religious? I don't see Star Wars as profoundly religious.

I see Star Wars as taking... all of the issues that religion represents and trying to distill them down into a more modern and more easily accessible construct that people can grab onto to accept the fact that there is a greater mystery out there. When I was 10 years old, I asked my mother, I said, well, there's only one God, why are there so many religions? And over the years, I've been pondering that question ever since, and it would seem to me that the conclusion I've come to is that all the religions are true, they just see a different part of the elephant.

Religion is basically a container for faith. Faith is the glue that holds us together as a society. Faith in our culture, our world, whatever it is that we're trying to hang on to, is a very important part of, I think, allowing us to remain stable, remain balanced. I can't.

It's too big. Size matters not. Look at me.

Touch me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm. And where you should not.

For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it. Makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us.

Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere.

Yes, even between the land and the ship. And where does God fit into this concept of the universe, in this cosmos that you've created? Is the Force God? I put the Force into the movies in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people.

More a belief in God than a belief in any particular... You know, religious system. I mean, the real question is to ask the question.

Because if you haven't enough interest in the mysteries of life to ask the questions, is there a God or is there not a God, that's, for me, the worst thing that can happen. You know, if you ask a young person, is there a God, and they say, I don't know. You know, I think you should have an opinion about that. Do you have an opinion or are you looking? Well, I think there is a God.

No question. What that God is or what we know about that God, I'm not sure. The one thing I know about life and about... The nature of the human race is that the human race has always believed it's known everything. Even the cavemen thought they had it all figured out.

They knew everything there was to know about everything, because that's where mythology came from. It's constructing some kind of context for the unknown. So we figured it all out, it was fine.

I would say that cavemen... had, you know, on a scale, understood about one. You know, now we've made it up to about five.

The only thing most people don't realize is the scale goes to a million. The central epoch of our culture has been the Bible, and it's about fall, wandering, redemption, return. But the Bible no longer occupies that central place in our culture today. More and more people today, young people in particular, are turning to movies for their inspiration, not to organize religion. Well, I hope that doesn't end up being the course that this whole thing takes, because...

I think there's definitely a place for organized religion. That's a very important part of the social fabric. And I would hate to find ourselves in a completely secular world where entertainment was passing for some kind of religious experience.

One reason one critic said that Star Wars has been so popular with young people is religion without strings attached, that it becomes a very thin base for theology. In fact... Well, it is a thin base for theology.

That's why I would hesitate to call the forest God. When the film came out, almost every single religion took Star Wars and used it as an example of their religion. And we're able to relate it to young people and say, and relate the stories specifically to the Bible and relate stories to the Koran and the Torah and things.

And so it's like, you know, if it's a tool that can be used to make... make old stories be new and relate to younger people. That's what the whole point was.

We downloaded something from your website the other day, and there you were talking about how you wanted the Jedi to be more than just fighters. You wanted them to be spiritual, but you didn't say what you meant by that. I guess they're like ultimate father figures or negotiators.

And at this point in time, they're sent out to negotiate a deal. How do you think this trade viceroy will deal with the Chancellor's demands? These Federation types are cowards. The negotiations will be short.

They help to put forth answers where people are in the middle of a dispute. Do not defy the Council, Master. Not again. I shall do what I must, Obi-Wan. They aren't an aggressive force at all.

They will not go along with you this time. They try to... I don't know. Conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might... Intergalactic therapists.

Have you been influenced? By Buddhism because Star Wars came along just about the time there was this growing interest in America and Eastern religions and I Notice in the Phantom Menace the new episode one that they They discover this slave child who has an aura about him. And it reminded me of how the Buddhists go out to look for the next Dalai Lama. Well, there's, again, a mixture of all kinds of mythology and religious beliefs that have been amalgamated into the movie.

And I've tried to take the ideas that seem to cut across the most cultures, because I'm fascinated by that. And I think that's... That's one of the things that I really got from Joe Campbell was that what he was trying to do was find the common threads through the various... mythology through the religions. One of the comparisons that came to mind just when I was re-watching the series recently is when Darth Vader tempts Luke to come over to the Empire by offering him all that the empire has to offer.

I was taken back in my own youth to the story of Satan taking Christ to the mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world if only he would turn away from his mission. Right. Was that conscious in your mind?

Well, yeah. I mean, that story also has been retold, the temptation. I mean, Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology.

I didn't want to invent a religion. I wanted to try to explain in a different way the religions that have already existed. You're creating a new myth.

Well, I'm telling an old myth in a new way. I'm just taking the... the core myth and I'm localizing it.

As it turns out, I'm localizing it for the planet, but I guess I'm localizing it for the end of the millennium more than I am for any particular place. This is the... You know, this is, again, part of the globalization of the world we live in. The average human being has much more awareness of the other cultures that exist, coexist with them on this planet. And that certain things...

go across cultures, and entertainment is one of them, and film and the stories that I tell cut across all cultures and seen all around the world. So what lessons do you think they're taking away from watching Star Wars in Italy and Malaysia and South America? One of the main themes in the film is.... Having organisms realize that they must live together, and they must live together for mutual advantage.

Not just humans, but all living things and everything in the galaxy is part of a greater whole. Now let's see if we can't figure out what you are, my little friend. And where you come from. I saw part of the message you...

I seem to have found it. General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars. Now he begs you to help...

him in his struggle against the Empire. I regret that I am unable to present my father's request to you in person, but my ship has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to bring you to Alderaan has failed. I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit.

My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour.

Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope. How do you explain the power of film to get inside us? Well, I think film is a very modern art form. It takes all of the, you know, all of the aspects, the senses, really, of other art forms, be it painting, music, literature, you know, drama, theater, and puts them into one art form.

There's something that happens in a darkened theater when the right moment occurs. You know, when you've seen a picture, it connects with you in a particular kind of way. A good...

novel operates again you have this little voice going on you're saying you know this has something to do with me in my life art is a is a very human thing because it relates I think to the issues of beauty and not just visual beauty but intellectual beauty why what is beauty and what does beauty trigger in our brain and why do we why do certain colors and things things mean certain things to us, and certain sounds, certain chords, make us feel happy or sad. And how is it when you take all these things together and recreate reality in a way that you can evoke sadness or crying or laughter? It's a very interesting human experiment.

And I'm fascinated by every day. I mean, I'm just completely... amazed at how the thing works.

I don't, you know, I know quite a bit about it, but I know I know very little about it. Remember, a Jedi can feel the force flowing through him. I found an unforgettable part of it being the emphasis of Kenobi on intuition, on urging Luke Skywalker to feel what he sees, to depend on the second side, this insight, which is a very powerful Buddhist notion. This time, let go your conscious self. An act on instinct.

With the blast shield down, I can't even see. How am I supposed to fight? Your eyes can deceive you.

Don't trust them. Stretch out with your feelings. You see?

You can do it. Why is it so important to you, as it is in your films, to listen to your inner feelings? It's an issue of quieting your mind so you can listen to yourself. And, as Joe would say, follow your bliss.

It's to follow your talent. ...is one way to put it. That's the way I see it.

I went... you know, the hardest thing to do when you're young is to figure out what it is you're gonna do. And you'll never know what it is you're gonna do. But if you follow the things that you enjoy... I'm not sure anybody really enjoys making money.

They may enjoy what they do after they've made it, but they don't enjoy the process. If you can find something that you actually enjoy the process, then you've found your bliss. When did you know what it was for you?

when I discovered movies. Which was? Which was when I was in college, where I could be in a psychology class or be in an anthropology class.

Suddenly I loved being in school. I loved learning this stuff. I was either going to go to one college where I was going to be basically an anthropology major.

I was going to go to another college and be an art student. And then I ended up going to another college and being a film student. But I truly believe that no matter which of those routes I'd have taken, because I was interested in all those things, I would have ended up right back where I am now. Because I... I certainly had no intention of making theatrical films when I went into the film business. I loved making documentary films, and I loved making avant-garde non-story films.

And here I found myself, and I hated writing. So now I found myself writing. I found myself running three companies, which is the last thing in the world I wanted to do.

I enjoy it, but I've walked down a path. I followed the things that I thought... Inside were the things I should be doing. You make it sound so easy, you're so relaxed and so laid back, but was there a struggle?

Well, I didn't... There wasn't really a struggle. Because I think when you stumble, it's like falling in love. You know, when you... and falling in love is tricky.

Because sometimes you can be infatuated with somebody, or you can be sexually aroused by somebody, but that isn't falling in love. And you sort of have to move away those... momentary things that come and go within days or hours and try to say this is the real thing. When you fall in love, you pretty much know it. When I fell in love with movies, I definitely knew it.

How did you know it? I was just in a place where I was very happy. When you get into something that you like and you say, this is great, this is something I want to do, it takes a lot of strength to stick with it. Because a lot of the times it's not what society deems is a worthy thing to do and not what your parents particularly want you to do.

My father wanted me to go into the stationery business and run an office equipment store. Was that a struggle, not to do it? It wasn't a struggle because I knew immediately that that wasn't what I wanted. Is that what he did, run a stationery store?

Yeah, and he built it up for me and for me to take over. And he was pretty good. pretty much devastated when I refused to get involved in it.

What did he say? Well, he said, well, you'll come back and, you know, you'll see that making your way in the world wasn't that easy. How did you tell him?

Well, I basically got, that was probably the biggest disagreement we ever got into. And I got really mad at him and just basically said, you know, I'll never work at a job where I have to do the same thing over and over again every day. And he just didn't want to hear that. And I knew. that that wasn't my, you know, he said, you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's a good job.

It's a good business. You can make a lot of money. You'll be successful. And I said, I don't want that.

I just don't want to do it. You know, he worked very hard to be able to give this to me. And so for me to refuse it was a big deal.

And he thought that I would go off and starve to death as some kind of artist somewhere, living in a garret. Is he still living? No, no, he died a number of years ago.

But he did, he died after I did Star Wars. So he was very proud of me at the end. And I did the only thing you have to do. Uh...

In the end, you only have to accomplish one thing in life, and that is to make your parents proud of you. If you're healthy and you can take care of yourself, and you're a good person, I mean, you contribute to society and not take away, that's all your parents want in the end. Now, go, my son.

Leave me. No, you're coming with me. I'll not leave you here.

I've got to save you. You already have. Look, you were right.

You were right about me. I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a journalist, but it does seem to me that the scenes of Luke and his father... There's something of George Lucas in there.

Some memory trace there. Oh yeah. Father. No matter how you write, you write...

from your own emotions and your own feelings. There's two sides to the Redeemer motif that I've got in the Star Wars films, which is that ultimately, Vader is redeemed by his children. And especially having children, I believe that. I believe that you are redeemed by your children because that's what life is all about, is procreating and raising children. And it should bring the best of you out.

Are you going to be prepared for that moment when your daughter says, your older daughter is about to go off already? and say, this is the way I want to go, Dad. I think there is a point where even though you love your children a great deal, you must let go, which is actually what The Phantom Menace is about. The Phantom Menace is about letting go?

It's about letting go. In what sense? In the sense that you have this young boy who's 10 years old who has to leave his mother and go off on his own, and the mother has to let him go because otherwise he...

he would be a slave the rest of his life. I can't do it, Mom. I just can't do it. Annie.

Will I ever see you again? What does your heart tell you? I hope so. Yes.

I guess. Then we'll see each other again. I will come back and free you, Mom. I promise.

Now, be brave and don't look back. Don't look back. At some point you do have to become an independent person. And it's about learning to let go of your needs, so to speak, and think of the needs of others. So Star Wars is, yes, it's about cosmic, galactic, epic struggles, but it's at heart about a family, the large myth set in a local family.

Well, yeah, most... Yeah. miscenter around characters and a hero, and it's about how you conduct yourself as you go through the hero's journey, which everyone goes through.

It's especially relevant when you go through this transition phase. Most societies it's when you're 13 or 14, in our societies it's sort of 18 to 22, somewhere in there, that you must let go of your past. and must embrace your future and in your own self, by yourself, figure out what it is, what path you're going to go down.

Is it fair or accurate to say, in effect, that Star Wars is your own spiritual quest? Well, I would say there's part of that. I'd say part of what I do when I write is ponder a lot of these issues. I have ever since I can remember.

And obviously some of the conclusions... conclusions I've come to are, you know, I use in the films. Some critics scoff at this whole notion of a deeper layer of meaning to what they call kid stuff.

But I come down on your side, on Joe Campbell's side, when he says kid stuff is the stuff dreams are made of. Yeah, it's much harder to actually write for kids than it is to write for adults. Why?

Well, because they're... they're more susceptible to anything that doesn't ring true. And on one level, they will sort of accept, they don't have constraints, so they can open their minds up and they're not locked into a particular dogma.

And at the other side, if something doesn't make sense to them, They're much more critical of it, but also like to think of things as being right and wrong. It's too difficult for them to rationalize their own behavior in that kind of a world. So when you write, do you see your audience and do you see a 13-year-old boy?

I don't... I see my audience and my audience is me. You know, I make these films for myself more than I make them for anybody else. I mean, I'm lucky that the things I believe in and the things that I enjoy and the things that entertain... entertain me, entertain a large population.

Sometimes they don't. I mean, I've made a bunch of movies that nobody's liked, so that doesn't always hold true. But I certainly wasn't out to become successful.

It happened. You're financing your own movie. I'm financing my own movies and it allows me the freedom to have my own my own vision be accurately portrayed on the screen and I will You know be successful or unsuccessful based on how people relate to that vision But I don't have a lot of other people coming in and telling me really what to do.

So I have bought my freedom But I also bought the freedom for everybody works for me because I think the core issues that I'm dealing with are if they were valid Two thousand years ago. They've got to still be valid today, even though they're not in fact fashion. Why are they out of fashion?

Because I think it's harder, you know, the world we live in is more complex. And I think that a lot of those moralities have gotten to be grayed to the point where they don't exist anymore. But those issues are still there in most people's minds.

What do You know, I mean, most people look at that and say, how corny. But, you know, the issues of friendship and loyalty are very, very important to the way we live our lives. But it's not common knowledge among young people.

You know, they're still learning. They're still picking up on it. up ideas. They're still using these ideas to shape the way they're going to conduct their life. And you need to tell the same story over and over again every generation, so that generation gets it.

And I think we've gone for a few generations where a lot of of the sort of more basic stories have fallen by the wayside. And what do stories do for us in that sense? What are myths?

They try to show us our place. Myths help you to have your own hero's journey, find your individuality, find your place in the world, but hopefully remind you that you're part of a whole and that you must also be part of the community and think of the welfare of the community above the welfare of yourself. I hear so many young people people today talk about a world that's emptied of heroism, where there are no more noble things to do.

What do you say to them? Everybody becomes, everybody has the choice of being a hero or not being a hero every day of their lives. And you can either help somebody, you can... Be compassionate toward people.

You can treat some people with dignity, or not. And one way you become a hero, and the other way, you know, you're part of the problem. And it's not a grand thing. You know, you don't have to get into a giant laser sword fight and blow up three spaceships to become a hero.

I mean, it's a very small thing that happens every day of your life. Essentially, isn't Star Wars about transformation? Well, it is about transformation. And ultimately, it will be about transformation of how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son.

But it's also... It's also about transformation of how his son came to find the call. Luke works intuitively through most of the movie until he gets to the very end.

Everything after that is very intuitive. He goes back and forth with his emotions about fighting his father and not fighting his father. Your hate has made you powerful.

Fulfill your destiny. Take your father's place at my side. Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. Finally he comes to that decision to say, no, this is what I have to do, I have to simply throw my weapon down.

And it's only that way that he's able to redeem his father, which ultimately is the issue. It's not as apparent in the first three movies, but when you see the movies... I haven't made yet, that the issue of how do we get Darth Vader back is really the central issue. How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind.

And had a good heart. Ultimately, doesn't it take, particularly in religion, a leap of faith, what Kierkegaard's leap of faith? Yes, yes, definitely. And that's... You'll notice Luke uses that quite a bit through the films, not to rely on his senses, not to rely on the computers, not to rely on faith.

that is what use the force is is a leap of faith that there are mysteries and powers larger than we are and you have to trust your feelings in order to to access these things your friend Joseph Campbell called it the perfect eye to see with mm-hmm how do you develop that I Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't know whether I have that eye, but... Oh, you do.

People, your colleagues tell me you're always making quick decisions, good or bad. You're making intuitive decisions very quickly. I'm making intuitive decisions because I can see the picture in my head, even though it's foggy.

And I know instantly whether this fits in there or doesn't. You have to work to keep nurturing your imagination, to keep feeding that interior pool from which these ideas and images. I've never had a problem with that.

I mean, my imagination runs wild. It's, you know, people say, well, you know. You're going to run out of stories.

I don't think I'll ever run out of stories. I have more stories than I can possibly do in my lifetime. I'm interested in more things to do than I can possibly do in my lifetime.

I'm now beginning to confront the fact that the... The amount of time I've got is less and less that I... More and more things are going to have to go by the wayside, and I'm going to have to focus more on the things that really are meaningful to me.

You know, because even if I have 30 or 40 years left, it's not enough. Funding for this program is provided by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation and by Mutual of America, building America's future through pension and retirement plans, encouraging dialogue and discussion. The Spirit of America. Mutual of America.

Transcript for:Exploring George Lucas's Star Wars Mythology

Transcript for:
Exploring George Lucas's Star Wars Mythology