what the internet has done it's given I'm going to say this straight out it's given cowards a platform it's given people that would never say anything to your face the ability to say something to you and they're cruel because a lot of the folks that write stuff are insecure they're dissatisfied whenever I read comments I'm always my first thought is what's going on in this person's life that they have to write something like that and so that's why there's so much noise and chatter I think online and social media and that stuff's great that's part of the way we've connected and I've met some amazing people even my followers love my followers I've got some wonderful human beings that truly I've connected with and even met in person so I want to say that it's a great tool however it's given people a voice and Power with power if you're gonna have influence there's responsibility there you can't just shoot your mouth because your words impact people [Music] foreign special thank you to one 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houseofacademias.com Dr lion and use the code Dr lion for 20 percent off your first order heavy pomporus welcome to the show thank you so much for being here thank you so much for having me I'm really excited and I'm amazed this is amazing I'm so excited for you this is wonderful and I'm honored you having me on your show are you kidding this is going to be a very powerful interview you are what I consider a unicorn you are a former secret service agent former law enforcement journalist Professor all the things interrogator which is fascinating basically a master of human nature and oftentimes to become so accomplished there's history behind that someone doesn't just unintentionally land in the spot that you're in I'd love to hear about your background and what brought you to where you are now so um I grew up in New York City and my parents were immigrated here from Europe from Greece and we grew up in very like a kind of a rough environment you can't go outside and play you got to be a lot of crime around us we lived in a subsidized housing which is government housing City housing super rough and because everything was be careful be careful be careful you can't go to this house you can't play with this person you can't go outside it was a very fear-based environment not because my parents were fearful people it just they were just trying to Shield us and protect us and you grow up with kind of you get tired of it and so at some point I was just like I just don't you know it's unfair and I'm sick of it so I think just intuitively and I didn't realize this was happening I eventually went into law enforcement but it was completely by mistake but I always wanted to be a person of service and even in college I I interned for a congresswoman congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy I entered for her it was supposed to be a six-month internship free and I get it and I loved it I used to handle all the constituent cases people would write in constituents from a district saying I have this problem could you please help me and so I took those over then after my internship was done after six months I asked I was like can I stay on and I think I stayed on two years so so service was always my thing um helping people and then it kind of shifted into policing which was completely by accident as well it was right after college and I had gotten a job in a corporate environment and I didn't I didn't last very long I was there a month month and a half two months if that I remember sitting on the train thinking like man this is just not me I can't do this so I'm on the subway in the subway and the subway doors open I see the subway doors open and there's this police officer and back then it was a little different and he's just like hanging out his belly his belly is hanging out over his gun belt and I'm thinking I could do that and that night I went home and I called 212 recruit it was like you know I was like you guys hiring they're like yeah come take the test and that's kind of how it went and I never looked back and it it changed my life it just I grew the [ __ ] up and it changed my mentality and changed the way I thought it changed the way I saw Humanity and it made me a more grateful human being and a more assertive human being a more confident human being and a more humble human being it just did so many things and I never thought that a profession could transform me as an individual so much what was it about it that transformed you as opposed to you're very much a sheepdog very much a sheepdog very much a leader and oftentimes those individuals are born that way and then cultivated was there a moment or a particular experience that really altered your thinking no I don't I you know and I wish I people ask me like what was it and I just it was just a pull and I was always a fighter growing up a fighter I always wanted to protect and you know I went I would see my family wronged or taken advantage of which would happen you know my parents you know my father's book super broken English and it was always very hard to watch him struggle and go through different things but but I probably my mother was a very more quiet not not weak not passive she was a she was a she worked hard she still does she's strong but a silent strong my dad was very much like a wild kind of in your face and when I would struggle he would be like hey get the [ __ ] up you know I don't want to hear it like you need to you need to this and some people might be traumatized by something like that and um I didn't understand it when I was younger and I understood them better as I got older and he very much despite being a girl in our culture being a girl was okay he didn't do that to me he didn't suppress me because of that which I appreciated he was always like just let's go get up you need to recover everything was let's recover let's recover let's recover and they didn't let me sit in something it was always like we gotta go you gotta you gotta recover you can't live in this you can't sit in this whatever it is and I think that that was my first taste of like resilience yeah and it's it prepared you very well for what was to come I'm sure maybe I thought NYPD was super brutal I don't know how it is now I heard they've softened up when I went through I'm thinking oh it's an academy it'll be like college no it was not you know you go there you show up I had no idea what I was walking into they're yelling at you they're screaming at you and I'm thinking I'm just here for a job I didn't understand um I almost quit first week I almost quit and I'm glad I stuck it out and I had you know I had someone close to me say it's a game stick it out this is what they do to everybody and I stuck it out and turned out to be I'm glad I did I think I would have I would have not been what I am it built the foundation and 85 of law enforcement there it's male is is that number still correct so I teach criminal justice criminology and I better get those numbers right it's okay so the last I uh had those numbers it was about 12 11 are female in law enforcement overall um General law enforcement so it's still a vast minority and I think I think that number is Shifting and again it depends though on the police department where you're looking at if you're looking at metropolitan police departments and ypd LAPD those numbers are going to be more wider the the Departments that try to recruit diff you know more diversely if you're looking at smaller police departments half the police departments in the US have 10 officers or less so small it's small so you're going to see it's more Mel skewed and I think it's more male skewed simply because of it's the job it's a very physical job it's a very physical job I also think if we're just looking at gender I think a lot of women just don't put in for it they just don't they don't think it's for them and I often hear it's like oh I don't think I could it's right then and there you're done if you don't think you could then you're done you'll never do it there's no point in putting in for it because you have to say yeah why not I can do it but we we sell ourselves out before we have a chance to be sold out I totally agree with that and um you were there for 12 years yes 12 plus years 12 plus years yes then what was the next step for you so I worked in the white house and then the White House you had the White House Press pool and so in the U.S Secret Service you're behind the scenes you're not supposed to be seen I had zero social media um people asked me what I did I'd actually use my mom's profession I was like oh I do hair because my mom's up we got married hair thank you because that's that's Mom my shout out to my mom um so I would just say I was a hairdresser so that would like end the conversation and when I but while working in the white house uh we have the White House Press pool which is the press that you see on Pebble Beach when they're reporting here from the White House and you see the White House in the background now the Press we couldn't let them kind of roam freely in the white house so we'd take rotations being the Press pool agent and I would get that from time to time most agents didn't like it they're like I don't want to be depressed we stayed away from the Press because you did something wrong it was in the news I was the opposite yeah I'll take the Press so I just would get the press a lot and then met this producer this producer was like Hey you ever thought about doing news or TV and they kind of sat there and I no I hadn't um but I like the medium of of television and I saw it maybe sat on it for a year then finally said sure I'll give it a try you know I've always been a risk taker and I knew there's a chance of failure because I had really secured this amazing job was an easy job to get and I'm thinking all right what's next and I ended up shifting becoming a security analyst and starting over at NBC and my first segment was inauguration Washington DC it was President Barack Obama's second inauguration and I did the live assessment for it and it just went from that to another hit to another hit hits like the news hits and doing more and more and that time kind of how that Journey started it was a hard journey because I went from being pretty well established now in the U.S Secret Service to going into a whole other field and you go from here to you just gotta go to the bottom and start with everybody else and I don't know what I was doing how did you mentally cope with that that was hard to go and it's interesting because I hear this a lot from people that come from the military and go into you go from the military and you go into the private sector because here's the thing in the military or in the jobs like that I I come from you're about service so you're in there you're not there for you nothing's about you no and you know what nobody gives a [ __ ] about you that's right you're uh disposable you're you're absolutely disposable you're absolutely absolutely Expendable it's a truly I don't want to say thankless job but it kind of is but that's you know people don't do it for thanks they do it because you want to give and serve so there's that element that element makes it hard because now you're going into the business of you and you're not used to it so as assertive as you are as I am I wasn't used to advocating for me I could advocate for the president I could advocate for this victim I could I could do all that no problem but then when it came to me I kind of was like oh how do I do this that part I had to learn and I also went from when you're in these also in these jobs you're taking orders you it's interesting you think for yourself because when you're on the street or in the middle of something you have to be a great decision maker which I was because they teach you to do it but you're used to getting order somebody from the top is telling you what to do but when you're out there as I was afterwards and now I'm the business I'm the product I'm the thing and I had to be very careful not to look at my agent or my manager which I eventually got and I I did this in the beginning as them telling me what to do because I look at them I'm like what do you think and I it's not what do you think but I was looking at them almost as if to give me orders and I had to undo that habit so there's it's a blessing and but it can be very difficult if you're not in the business of you I think that's really helpful because we do have a lot of individuals that listen to this that are transitioning out either they're in the military our practice Services Elite warfighters and the transition from jobs whether it's from the military sector to the private sector that transition Point people become very depressed not everybody but it is a very hard transition did you um miss your team oh per se and you probably still do I do because it's your family here's the thing you go to work it's your it's your it's your crew it's like it's I can't think of a better word but it's like people join gangs because they want to be part of something like it was my gang I showed up something broke bad my gang was there my crew was there was it was your family but like a a badass family like totally you go to them it's just like who's messing with me and you missed that also what I loved is that and this was difficult and I had to adapt to it it's they do so if somebody says I'll call you at nine they call you at 55. did they gonna show up they show up there's no like well you know like there's no there's no being mediocre it's just the phone rings you don't screen it yo hey I'm here and so I missed that I miss the reliability the consistency the you know they're they're there for you and it's nice showing up and being with a crew of people and everyone's Mission focused and oriented and that also does something exceptional is that people aren't although it does it can't happen but you're not really competing with each other because everyone's just Mission driven what you're doing is not about you it's a collective goal and so it promoted working together promoted teamwork where it gets tricky is when you leave it's not really teamwork it's for the profit of a company the profit of an individual and then now well I want to be seen I want to shine and now you're competing on a different level and and that kind of takes away that altruistic feeling that you know that that cleanness that I don't want to say innocence but there's just this Purity there's a purity there and when you're in this place and then you go out and now it's just it's different also a very special thank you to one of the sponsors of the show and that is Apollo neuro if you guys have seen in any of my stories or any of my reels I typically have my Apollo on it is an Apollo wearable I love it I wear it for at least three hours a day and turn it on so I'm not just wearing it it's hooked up to my phone it improves the way that I manage stress it helps me stay calm and focused even though I like to think that I'm calm be more present and it helps me recover it was developed by neuroscientists and Physicians Apollo delivers this silent vibration it's different than having an Apple Watch it is smooth and steady you can turn up the vibration turn down the vibration it is unlike any other Fitness wearable it doesn't track anything it simply improves your health by strengthening your nervous system it is safe natural no drugs no supplementation required it trains the nervous system to cope with stress better over time which I love I use it after a long flight lay on the bed kick up my feet put on my Apollo wearable sometimes I use the gray one sometimes I use the white one I know that you're going to love it you can wear it on your wrist your ankle your clothes whatever you want head on over to apollonuro.com Dr Lyon and this is not to take away anything from people who aren't in this profession but you are hand picked to get into some of these professions like you're a secret service you are like literally hand selected you have to go through interviews you have to go through a physical assessment you have to go through uh written examinations you have to go through a polygraph there is a selection process that you go through and to get to the point where it says we want you how many Secret Service agents are there a year I'm not allowed to say I don't think okay I think those numbers I don't it might be classified let's say they're a few thousand okay for uh the SEAL Teams about 2500. okay there's a huge huge attrition rate huge washout rate for those trying to get into the teams and I'm sure that that is so similar to Secret Service I would I will tell you this the our numbers are probably higher than that for sure special agents and it is super intense here's the difference between U.S Secret Service and other entities everyone thinks U.S Secret Service is just to protect the president and that is is it it is not it's actually a dual Mission agency and it was one uh first actually the U.S Marshals were created and they were there to catch fugitives that was the first official law enforcement agency second agency was U.S Secret Service U.S Secret Service was initially created for counterfeit currency there was a huge influx of counterfeit money in the United States it was crushing the economy uh many many years ago and so they said we need to monitor this so U.S Secret Service was there for currency so the jurisdiction of U.S Secret Service has always been money then fraud crime electronic crime any kind of crime that's happening on a computer device so they were law enforcement it wasn't until there had been multiple assassinations and attempts that I think was in 1901 they stepped in the government stepped in and said we have to protect the people like our leaders and that's when they began protecting U.S presidents most people don't realize that so it's a dual Mission agency and if it's the only agency that does this uh essentially and the other thing is you don't just protect the president and it's almost interesting you don't get to the president it's actually very hard to get to the actual to get a current living president is super hard super intense a lot of Agents don't want it because they have to put their life on the line they have to be willing to die for the president no you have to be you have to be with your secret service agent that's just like understood you're gonna die for whoever you're protecting so if the Prime Minister of China or the president of China comes to the United States and we are designated to protect foreign heads of state you need to take a bullet for the president of China or if Putin comes over and we're protecting Putin if that bullet comes you actually have to take a bullet for Putin so a lot of people don't realize this you protect the heads of cabinet secretary treasury uh Secretary of Homeland Security um certain people in different positions former presidents so it's not one person it's it's a very myopic sense of what people sense of the U.S Secret Service is so it's it's a huge agency they have a huge load so is there burnout rate yes it's huge I think a lot of people don't realize what it entails in fact I have never heard about the selection process I'm sure it's probably mostly classified versus what we know for the military where it's boot camp and Hell Week the the selection process is it physical and mental yes yes because you have to physically be able to do the job the idea is you have to carry the person you're protecting you have to carry other people you have to wear your gear you've got all these weapons and guns you have to be able to physically it's a super physical job and I think that that does disqualify quite a few people also maybe intimidates quite a few people the other thing is you have to be a very good shot shooting's huge and the U.S Secret Service you have to be an excellent shot and the idea is you have to be so good because if you're taking a shot it is more than likely in a crowded area because who are you protecting very public figures these public figures if they're going to be exposed and vulnerable it's going to be in an you know at some event and so if you're going to take that shot you better be very very sure that you aim precisely and you don't miss you miss you hit the wrong person game over so there's no there is no room for for mistakes for error there and the who applies to being a secret service people have a little bit crazy okay or is that something that they actually recruit people for they say okay you've been in law enforcement for this many years because the skills of a secret service agent is interrogation included in that or is it special quals special qualifications or schools no so interrogation which was my expertise I was in a polygraph unit a small very super small unit it was kind of a quiet unit and that came after I became an agent so interrogation and interviewing wasn't even on my radar I didn't even know about the unit until after I got in and then I went that I kind of made that became my specialization the way we're talking about your husband when he was in the military he had a specialization as a medic so I was you know in the U.S Secret Service as an agent but then I've got I I was able to obtain a special specialization in something unique which was interviewing and getting information from people so did they choose you to do that or did was that your what you wanted to do I did not want to do it actually at all and one of the senior examiners told me that his position was opening up because there's only a handful of people it was kind of like the justices the Supreme Court like somebody has to move or leave for you to get that spot and so one of them was shifting and he's like you should put in for it and I was like no way why who's going to confess to me that's literally about everybody no I had the whole Greek blonde woman walks in the room they either I I'm gonna tell you well I had a very different view I was like you need somebody very intimidating somebody who's gonna kind of come at people and I I had a false sense of what it meant to do a proper interview interrogation most law enforcement enforcement does so I'm sorry guys out there like you're not we were I didn't get properly trained in interviewing until I became a polygraph examiner and I I realized that it's such a disservice and the way you train law enforcement in canine in Tech in I.T they should train them to and do interviews and not everybody should be doing interviews I think the number is something like 80 percent of crime in the United States goes unsolved the reason it goes on solved the primary reason in my opinion is because when you don't have evidence if I don't have the Smoking Gun the blood the this and that the next thing is I do interviews to create new leads but if I don't know how to interview people and I think it's going to be 10-15 minutes and I'm done I create no new leads I can't close cases it's really interesting what you're talking about and especially when you think about the culture of policing and Military they value in my opinion outwards outward Display of Power right we think okay the guy has to go in and be big and brutal to get information there are other ways to elicit information and display power as opposed to the outward display and I I'm so curious as to how you I don't want to use the word impose power but how you um utilize non-physical power in interrogation okay so I think it's I think the correct term would be what it should be is an hour display of confidence an authority and assertiveness and when I say authority authority doesn't mean I'm the boss I'm in charge nobody gives a [ __ ] quite frankly just you and usually people who have that Vibe are super insecure they need you to know that they're in charge because they need you to know they're in charge so people that truly Master this correctly it's like I show I show the world who I am I don't tell the world who I am I show them in fact when I began doing interviews I was schooled by all the different examiners and one of them said don't ever walk into a room and tell somebody I'm in charge I'm the boss I'm the special agent don't ever do that your your Stock's gonna go from here to here the fact that you have to actually tell somebody hey I'm in charge you just lost they know you're in charge so if they're pushing back on you that means something in what you're showing isn't working so you have to show strength that's the word it's not I think power is the wrong word because power means I need I need this thing I need to feel validated I need I need and you need because you're insecure you need because your ego is taking charge if you need to feel power that's a conversation you have to have internally and why do you need that I'm not saying that people don't go into this business into this line of work doing that which is very wrong and it can draw in the wrong type of character but again it depends on the recruitment plot process of different entities I went through NYPD different recruitment process and ypd there's 1500 people in my class you a secret service 54. so the selection process is different for the different agencies so do you come across bullies and sometimes we would internally joke like if we'd have like an outlier come through and we're like dude how did that guy get in and we were joking like that guy had his lunch money stolen way too many times when he was a kid and now he's here to show everybody he's in charge or she or she would happen with women too how long did you work as an interrogator or should we say interviewer interviewer why would you it's got a stigma I like to me interviewing interrogation is the same thing to the public it's not everybody watches Law and Order and they see that you did it you did it or you know torture which we've heard you know of and people use actually all the countries use that I just want to put that out there everybody thinks so America it's like everybody does it just so you know so uh I did it for a number of years I'm trying to think now when we do math here not myself several years what are some of the skills that you learn that translate or what could The Listener take from what you learned and translate that to being able to be in a conversation or get information we you know it's interesting I I feel like the communication in this world has gotten so different because of social media and what people think is okay and how to treat people and um how to even navigate this space of communication with tech and and everything has changed I will tell you this the number one piece of advice I can give everybody shut up I think that's what you told me when I you know I reviewed so I I asked you thank you very nicely you did it I don't need nice I don't need that I said hey Abby I really want to do a great job and become a very good interviewee and interviewer and what you told me to stop talking just shut up you know it's interesting because we looked at some interviews and we won't see which ones and you were like hey you know this person I feel like I have to fight to get my point across and do you remember what I told you I I actually had set it up I needed to wait until they finished and stop interrupting which is actually feedback that I got when we when I originally started this podcast and I have taken that advice to Heart yes because the person that you were speaking to was getting it wrong and you're like but he's saying the wrong thing I said I know but you're trying to compete with him you're trying to tell them hey it's wrong he's not listening so he's competing with you I'm like just let him go let him finish then he feels done and then now you can come in and say I hear you because most people want to be heard most people like to talk let them let them knock themselves out makes people feel important again it goes back to self-validation right I need to be validated I need to be I just speak I need to be heard which isn't a bad thing but you want to keep that in balance and so I was telling you I remember I was like yes I know what you're saying and I know you want to correct him but he doesn't want to be corrected he wants to speak let him go then come in and then say I hear you great points but let me tell you why and then you hit those points because now he's going to let you speak don't fight don't fight for the mic don't fight for the mic everyone's fighting for the mic let them hold it when it's time take the mic thank you because now they're more likely to also let you go they said everything they have to say they're spent and if they cut you off I actually use this in my interrogation room when I have people come into the room and they go often you know go off on me nobody was ever happy to see me except for you but but in an interview nobody wanted to see me I represented you talked to me you could potentially lose your freedom and I would let people go sometimes 20 minutes and sometimes it would berate me and they would say things they didn't know me they just what I represented and understood when they were done I would speak now in that moment maybe they would cut me off or intercept and I'd say you know what for 20 minutes I sat here and I I listened to you I let you speak would you give me that same respect every single time oh you're right sorry people back off so it was a great that's reciprocity by the way I gave you something please give me give me that back I gave you the 20 minutes for you to go now reciprocity give that back to me what are some of the other big mistakes that people make when they're trying to communicate or get information and I definitely want to get into some of the things that you talk a lot about how do you know if someone is lying which seems to be a Hot Topic but in terms of interpersonal communication and creating a relationship in a bond what are the ways that you think are really effective and what are some of the things that you see people do wrong definitely in the Internet space interrupt obviously so I feel that those are two things I feel if we go to social media or Internet everyone's a cowboy behind a computer I know everybody's got something to say but in the street it's like come say to my face no thank you so those are two different spaces and what the internet has done it's given I'm gonna just say this straight out it's given cowards a platform it's given people that would never say anything to your face the ability to say something to you and they're cruel because a lot of the folks that write stuff are insecure they're dissatisfied whenever I read comments I'm always my first thought is what's going on in this person's life that they have to write something like that and so that's why there's so much noise and chatter I think online and social media and that stuff's great that's part of the way we've connected and I've met some amazing people even my followers love my followers I've got some wonderful human beings that truly I've connected with and even met in person so I want to say that it's a great tool however it's given people a voice and Power not to be clear but they never earned it they never earned it well with with power if you're gonna have influence there's responsibility there you can't just shoot your mouth because your words impact people I'm not saying we all make mistakes we all say the wrong thing hell I do live news and half the time I'm like oops I got that wrong but it's it gives a mic to people that sometimes should not have a mic and people who use that mic incorrectly and who in real life would never have the fortitude to say anything to you so that's one thing so it's created a lot of noise and even Echo Chambers Echo Chambers people hear somebody say something and then they repeat it it's Echo chamber there's no original content a thought I think we see that all the time yes it's like who's you know sometimes I see people post quotes and I'm like that's not your quote that's somebody else's quote those are not your words but it's become so we can take other people's words and I don't I don't think that's right I agree with you I I totally agree with you what are some of the body language tactics and I don't want to use tactics but I do think creating connection is really important and you talk a lot about first impressions and once an individual makes a first impression can they ever undo that and what are ways that we can do a better job okay so first impressions here's the thing once somebody has a negative impression of you good luck once that assessment is made and it takes it's very quick it is very very hard to undo it's going to take a lot of work so you do want to kind of get it from the front if you can to create that positive impression but here's the thing today that positive impression starts from way before so it actually starts with your reputation reputation today matters more so than it ever mattered before because now your reputations online it's everywhere where before typically you'd have to know somebody to say oh I know this person I know that I know Evie this is what my experience was but now my reputation is my interviews my social media presence the things I write the things I tweet so that's why I say the things you say online it lives forever I don't care if you delete it somebody wants to go subpoena Snapchat Twitter or anybody it is always there um so your reputation precedes yourself I will tell you I think this is my personal opinion people need to be much more careful with what they put online it is your reputation and that stays with you for forever and I am thankful that I did not grow up during a time where social media was available to me because when I was 15 16 18 19 20 I mean I was still like not I was still figuring life out I thought I knew it all you know I don't I still don't so I think your reputation starts there it has to matter and we are in a space where it matters more than anything now because it's so it's just so Amplified even LinkedIn if you're on LinkedIn which is a business platform for anybody who doesn't use it but you look to see if somebody sends you a request to connect what do you do you look at the mutual connections and you see who do they know and based on who they know you think whether they're a valid connection to make or not super super important today I would say it starts from there because that's the foundation people bring in and at this point body language is like after the fact unless somebody you're just meeting them in for the first time and they didn't have time to do any research on you with body language I will say this just own your own your body think about how you sit up how you speak how you present research shows the majority of what we communicate is not with this like the words that actually come out of our mouth in fact um one study showed 55 is we communicate with our body this is the main tool that people receive information from about 33 is paralinguistics it's what what do I sound like when I speak my my tone my pitch my voice my Cadence how do people interpret if people would yeah how would they interpret those things because it seems they do it intuitively intuitively intuitively you meet people and you're like oh you ever think of it this way you ever go to an event and somebody walks into the room and they're speaking and you're thinking that person has presence of course yes because they're owning their body and they're owning their voice only seven percent research shows only seven percent is actually the words that come out of our mouth it's fascinating nobody people connect with you based on how you make them feel it's always about them what do they get out of it we're selfish creatures we're very egotistical we're kind of like in the space of me me we think we're the sun that's okay but if you know this about human nature then you know how to be malleable and handle people so in ego it's a Greek word which means I so if I understand it's not all about me I'm focused on you and that's what we talked about Forget You focus on who you're interviewing build a genuine connection you can build a genuine connection with anyone I would build genuine connections with terrorists or terrorist sympathizers all the time I would find something genuine and likable about them and I call it chasing the good I would focus on something good about them you can find something good in anybody if you want to and if you're non-judgmental and that's another thing keep your opinions out of it keep your judgment out of it so people will say things to you you may not like you may not agree but you gotta you gotta control this don't roll your eyes nobody's if they don't ask your opinion don't give it most of the time I don't people come to me and they talk to me about politics all the time about presidents all the time I say nothing nothing do you find that you feel neutral internally neutral about what's being said neutral about the individual rather than have you been able to eliminate judgment yes I feel really really comfortable with that I don't judge people I've lived my life enough and seen enough to know like who am I first of all to judge somebody else and the way they navigate their lives I don't judge now I may come across people that I don't like the way they navigate their lives now if it's in an interview process or something like this super easy because you don't impact me the problem where it comes is comes in is in our personal relationships where we don't like the way other people live their lives because it crosses over into our lane it impacts us and it creates Havoc or volatility in our life and then we get frustrated with that person and we we're like why why are they why are they and so at that point you have to face two different things one is am I allowing this person to exist in my life did I invite them in and is this someone I can maybe put a little bit more space or put more distance it always comes back to you I briefly want to acknowledge one of the sponsors of the show and that is first form you can head on over to firstform.com drlion and today I'm going to tell you about Opti Greens 50. in some of the upcoming shows you're going to hear a lot about phytonutrients and how important fruits and vegetables are that goes for everybody from the Warfighter to the mom to the athlete making sure that you're getting phytonutrients can be very important to longevity and overall health that's one of the reasons why I love Opti greens 50 and Opti greens 50 is a low temperature processed green powder it has fruits and vegetables in it it is amazing it tastes amazing it has barley grass spirulina kale parsley all the things that I would actually never eat all in one little scoop actually two scoops serving size is Two Scoops it also has prebiotics and probiotics it is gluten free doesn't have anything artificial it is very important to be able to get the phytonutrients that we are missing in our diet so how are you going to do it a lot of us don't have time to sit down and eat a salad this is true but just because you don't have time doesn't mean you don't have knowledge and with knowledge comes the ability to execute so head on over to firstform.com drlion and check out Opti greens 50. or if it's someone you're born into like a family member the family we get is the family we get and I'm not big on cutting people family off I think it's done too much it's not a healthy thing if you're going to and I don't believe in cutting people off it's I don't think it's the right term it's let people go because when you cut someone off the intent is I'm cutting you off because I want to I want to spite you I I want to show you I wanted this that comes from a place of negativity and hate that's no good for you but when you let people go you say you know I'm letting you go peacefully I wish you no harm I send you no ill will or intent because I do believe in karma and what you put out there um you're just not for me I just I just can't it's it's too it's too much for me or you can just make space but and I'm not saying oh family is good because I worked plenty of cases where I saw cro like crime crime is being committed in fact it's interesting in my class we were looking at the statistics the UCR uniform criminal report Uniform Crime Report which shows statistics of crime and the majority of crime that is inflicted it is between people that know each other everyone's afraid of the stranger forget a stranger forget the stranger most crime is inflicted by people we know and what's also interesting which isn't spoken of uh I noticed that the most recent years crime from child to parent was higher than parent to child when I say child I don't mean just little kid I mean the relationship so it can be an adult child to a parent so the number increased actually from wrongdoing or criminal activity from a child to a parent but the narrative has mostly been what does the parent do to the child there's a whole other narrative going the other way around and I think we're seeing that even more so um with these Generations are coming along and we're seeing this this break in the and family community which I think is also hurting the fabric of society because I will tell you this we're saying and this just happened the other day there was a mass shooting Nashville I believe it was and we're seeing an increase in these and a lot of people are looking at what's causing it guns comes up I'm not saying guns don't play a role they do that's something else but there's also something deeper here that we're missing is what's happening within the fabric of society that is causing this increase and there is a disconnect and research is showing that people feel less community less connection to families to relationships your connections to other human beings keep you grounded and other people shaming you and saying don't do that actually keeps you from doing them that's important so in this internet World we're so disconnected and reconnecting with our family and Community would be key you need to find people to help you stay grounded you can't just be cutting everybody off you can't be hating on everybody again I would always turn it if I start feeling that way and I'm very very careful but if I start kind of leaning that way I pause and I say what's going on within me that I feel this because if I'm good I don't care what's going around right I'm good right so and we all we're all gonna kind of it's like being on a boat that that back and forth kind of feel you have to ride the wave do you feel your experience in the past and growing up and then going into the police department then Secret Service then interrogation I know that you've spent time overseas do you think that that changes the lens in which you view current relationships yes I I started going overseas actually from college I grew up in although I grew up in New York I grew up in a very tight-knit Community it was a Greek cultural Community my parents kept me in there because they wanted to keep me safe and they wanted to make sure I learned the language I mean Greek was my first language English came later so they wanted me to keep my roots it was really important and I'm appreciative of that because I want that for my my daughter now um but Community is important but at the same time I understood that there's a bigger world out there so when I went to college and all my friends were clubbing it up not that I didn't visit a clever bar to my life I I understood and this just came intuitively that there's a bigger world out there than me and I wanted to live overseas so I did a semester overseas learned Italian studied there loved it and then uh went to Mexico learned Spanish learned it kept me humble it kept me understanding that the world is bigger than myself and it if you just stay in one small place your mind stays like this and then when I started traveling my mind did this and it made me braver and it allowed me to be more exposed and to be put myself in more situations that were outside my comfort zone from a young age you have to do from a young age I'm already starting my daughter's only a few months old I'm already thinking like what am I going to do with her how am I going to expose her from a young age so that she's always in scenarios that are challenging and can slowly build up her resilience so I'm already looking at those pools where you throw the baby in yeah I think that's critical I want her to be in the water and feel that uh so that she can manage that panic I started doing it in the bathtub with her and I can see her and I told my husband oh no we're going it I forgot what they're called but the where you teach them how to swim and how to take care of themselves survival skills in water I'm not always going to be there for her and I need her to have that within her I got this she needs to have that um so well thought out so well thought out I think that that's amazing and we believe the same we believe the same you know as you went through interrogation I just want to go back there because I am so curious you are very well read and again you're a journalist so you like to keep up on the things that are happening how has interrogation changed how has our ability to communicate what is the science showing in terms of new ways I'm sure that they've made advances in the way that they ask questions or understanding body language or understanding humans has it changed yes so it's so interesting that you bring this up because I don't typically talk about as much on this on this platform because it's hard for people to understand the way we do I'll give you kind of like a quick historical rundown before doing interviews and there was a third degree which was really the third degree police would just hit you and torture you and get you to talk we know it doesn't work back then for what they needed for that's what they had then this uh research came out or this criminologist came out and he developed a technique it was an accusatory style which means I'm going to read you I'm going to read your body language I'm going to assess to you I'm going to ask you some questions on the base on how you respond I'm going to be able to know whether you're telling the truth or not okay so this technique was created it's called an accusatory style technique it was created in the 1940s and law enforcement began using it is it better than the third degree yes it is problem is we have historically moved forward in time and we have all these these advances in The Sciences the social sciences psychology all that and that style of interviewing still exists it's still pervasive in fact that was the I went to Columbia journalism school after the U.S Secret Service kind of like your husband he left the military and he's going into a new profession I left the U.S Secret Service and there I am at Columbia journalism School sitting there I'm like I'm back at school to get a second Masters to learn about journalism and I wrote my Master's project about it and about how flawed our system of interviewing is in the United States in policing because we are using technique techniques created from the 1940s think of it this way we've not advanced in that it's as if you're going I'll use it in your terms would you rather go to the hospital that is using the technology and techniques of the Year 2023 or would you want to go to a hospital that's using the standards and techniques and advances in science from the 1940s never you're not going to get anywhere you won't even survive interviewing is the same way so there there does need to be a huge overhaul in the way we do interviewing in the U.S and one thing that's being shown is we're seeing a lot of people being exonerated a lot of people have given false confessions to crimes that they never did and now we're seeing them being exonerated so it what we're using today it it needs to shift and it needs to change and we need to be more of information gatherers and collectors and I would see this firsthand because I would go to police departments I remember one case and I actually wrote about this in my first book becoming bulletproof just it's just coming to me because it stands out case it was a lot of child abuse cases unfortunately that I worked it was a six-month-old baby crack skull and it wasn't because somebody dropped the baby was because somebody struck the baby in their head with a blunt force object so they were looking at the nanny and the dad Nanny dad Nanny dad that was the The Narrative we talked to both Nanny dad my partner and I clear them both he's like it's not the nanny he had the father I had the nanny we both come together I'm like it's not the nanny he's like it's not the dad it's like I want the mom give me the mom because the mom's the one who's like my kid my kid and I was like give me the mother and what happened when I because I was very information based I went in no judgment and I would tell people I'm an objective seeker of the truth I don't care what the truth is I just want the truth I'm not with this side or that side I'm with I'm with you to help you get to where we need to go and so because I could do that I could see what other people could not see so in this case it was the mom and she ended up being although I didn't get a confession on that one it was a very hard one I knew she had done it just based on all the assessments the way she behaved and all that stuff and I was able to tell police you're looking at the wrong person so when policing you can get tunnel vision and it's interesting because no offense to my my brothers and sisters out there who work really hard when you think you know what you're doing when you're so assertive and this has come sometimes becomes problematic and trying to train law enforcement I know what I'm doing this works for me you don't always know what you're doing and if you're not open to new research and ways and you're doing the stagnant way because I just know that's a problem but it's a it's a it's an American problem because in foreign countries UK Canada New Zealand Australia they understand we need to be information gatherers not information judgers judgment needs to be out and if I already think you did it everything you say needs to fit The Narrative of you did it oh look how you're sitting oh look what you just did oh look at how your eye shifted you must be a liar that is insane that is insane because each person is different we preach diversity but then everyone's going to behave the same when they lie you're not taking people's DNA their genetic makeup the way they're raised their parents did they have parents their household do they have an education no education how much education their trauma their drama their lives or experiences and you're gonna tell me everybody's gonna blink or touch their nose I hear that stuff and it's marketing it's marketing and it's an easy way to simplify hey everyone's the same so if we're all out there being hey diversity well there's diversity in the way people respond with their body it's really about being in tune and connecting with people in a genuine way that is really powerful and so interesting to think about it that way you know um what how do you think that that has played a role in the way in which we communicate you mentioned earlier about being Echo Chambers and people aren't talking about new information it just seems that there's a lot of regurgitation well what happens if the regurgitation is again the way in which we communicate the way in which we interface with each other what if that's just based on Old information right old information like I don't know I don't know what the science or how people are talking about interfacing but if it was kind of in the 1940 realm and that's the way in which Dynamics exist and what we're talking about how do you do you think that that would actually change culture if we could improve it so if we're talking specifically to interviewing the problem with that specific thing is it's become the dominant way in which to teach law enforcement to in to do interviews and just going back to it they're private companies that do this the US government doesn't train its own people they actually go out to private contractors who teach who teach police and law enforcement here's how you need to do an interviewing come on they're they're in the business of making money how can you I'm not saying I will I would and I would go through tons of training from different entities in a lot of these entities um that do this and it's like it's their business so that's where the US government dropped the ball and not teaching its own people and doing its own research and Science in a neutral unbiased way to make people better interviewers that's one thing now with regard to Echo chamber that I think goes more to the public sector because I have social media and I'll look at everyone's saying the same thing or somebody will say something then they copy what the other person says they put their name on it people are Echo Chambers it's like know who's giving the information and I always say to people because a lot of people come to me clients come to me or I do consultations and people say you know Evie I read this here and I read that there and I get I asked him for who who said that who are they how do you know it's valid you have to know where your information is coming from you can't just listen to everybody talking and that's where there's so much noise so you have to become a very good filter of how much noise you let in we have more noise around us now because of social media because we're so we're watching somebody say something oh it must be true I do this I do this with my mom on Facebook do you know what I've heard on Facebook today do you know what this person said you need to be careful and now I'm getting all this baby advice from my mom because she read something on Facebook and I'm like Mom just because it's on Facebook it does not mean it's true but she's so used to well if it's published it's in the news or media it's vetted because she grew up with that and people need to know that there's individuals out there putting stuff out there and sometimes in a very strategic tactical way to kind of mess with the vibe you really have to you must be responsible for the the content you consume also think about what you're feeding your mind if you feed your own body garbage and this is your your lane then your body becomes garbage so if you feed your mind garbage your mind becomes garbage if everything you consume is is noise it's chatter it's negative guess what space you're going to be living in like you must be responsible for what you consume don't blame other people don't be like look what this person's putting out there look at this TV show look at what these women are doing and I hear it it's like why do you watch it why do you consume it creates a lot of distraction so people don't have to show up in their own life to execute and do the things that potentially would drive them forward yes yes it is it's like let me focus on this other person because I don't have to look at my stuff and because this other person is doing so much worse than I am I'm doing okay I feel better I feel better well at least I'm not that much of a [ __ ] show right right yeah but then we don't deal with the stuff we need to deal with in our lives and our Karma yeah because we're all here to learn something and are you learning your lesson are you just kicking the can down the road and taking it Taking It with You you're a Trailblazer and I'm so curious as to what your thoughts are about that in terms of a legacy that you want to leave how do you see what you're providing to the world impacting it I love that word because everything today seems to be about acquiring things and making money and I'm not saying I'm not I've never been driven by money and I'm not saying Financial wealth isn't an important thing you need that to sustain and it gives you peace and Harmony but it's very much The Narrative today the success is defined by car you drive the house you have how much money you make that's success and even in my life that was the barometer you know make money money money equals success and I my personal standpoint is it does not in fact that there's this great story with Alexander the Great who was Macedonian Greek and um my mother's from northern Macedonia Greece and the story was when Alexander the Great was dying he said when I'm dead I want you to take my body and I want you to parade it out amongst the people and I want you to make sure that they can see my hand and that my hand is out and open and exposed and empty and they asked them Alexander the Great why do you want that and he said well he's like I amassed all this wealth and I can't take any of it with me and despite all my wealth and the best doctors and and stuff that I have around me I'm still dying I was born into this world with empty hands and I'm going to leave this world with empty hands so that comes back to your legacy the only thing you take with you when you go is your legacy whatever that is for you what do you think it's going to be for you I have no idea but I will tell you this there were two points in my life where I I was fortunate to have this happen but there were two moments in my life where I really thought I was gonna die in real life the first time was 9 11. and I was younger at that point I hadn't experienced a lot of things I was an agent and I had done well to an extent right at a career but I remember specifically when I found myself because we were triaging people and trying to help people and we obviously didn't know the towers were going to fall but as the first tower started to collapse and it was coming down around me I realized I'm gonna die and I had I wasn't afraid I had two moments two things that made me sad one was I'm gonna die alone and it made me sad you know you're gonna leave this earth and I'm like I have no one to say goodbye to the second thing that made me pause is I remember thinking men I haven't lived haven't done things yet and for me that was I hadn't married yet I hadn't had a family yet and I was like I never got to do those things and that was just something intuitively that I wanted for myself I survived and there was another Point later in my life where I came close to passing again and that time I was okay I was actually okay to leave the Earth and I was like I'm all right to go now I did everything I wanted to do yes I did the work I did meaningful work which left me a legacy I think Legacy is for me it's not so that people can talk about me it's from me because that goes back to Ego I I did my legacy for me for my soul and then I had a family I did the things I wanted and so I remember in that crucial moment where maybe I you know it was possible I was going to pass again I remember thinking I'm all right to go this time I can go so I think that's what my barometer has always been am I okay to leave this earth tomorrow and maybe that's it's not sad for me it's it's truth no one escapes death so are you okay to go and if you're not okay to go [ __ ] you got work to do you got work to do you felt courageous in that moment no I didn't even think about that courage is you just do you just do The Narrative people always talk about is how do we build courage and bravery and I I think you build it not necessarily in those moments you build it for a lifetime just like what you're doing with your daughter you know it's interesting somebody showed me a quote actually this morning and it says success isn't taking the elevator up it's taking the stairs encourages like that resilience everyone thinks like give me that magic pill Evy help me be courageous start making Brave decisions every single day small decisions you do make you Brave and if there's things in your life that you know you must make decisions on then be a person of action and do it deal with stuff do not avoid do not fear conflict and confrontation I'm not telling you to go look for it I don't like confrontation but we must deal with things deal with them whatever that looks like because when you don't that's actually worse you create chronic stress which now I think I'm speaking your term stress is good chronic stress is no good so when I stay let's say I'll just overly simplify it in a job that I don't like on a relationship that I don't like and I'm like I'm just staying here because I'm avoiding conflict and confrontation it's actually what you're doing is you're you're destroying yourself slowly and it's a long-term stress that you're causing yourself whereas if you face it it's stress but it's a short-term stress and it passes that's how you build courage I do but you can't tell another person to be courageous if you're not courageous in your own life the life you're living it's yours it's your legacy it's your whatever you want it to be and if you do not have courage I don't know how you're going to move forward you're always going to be in fear and fears compounding when you don't face what you're afraid of I face everything I'm afraid of everything I'm afraid of I'm like all right I'm gonna do it you probably seek it what what am I maybe what am I going to be afraid of I'm gonna run towards the sound of gunfire as opposed to run away thank you to inside tracker for sponsoring this episode of the Dr Gabrielle Lyon show inside tracker is an 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would like to have addressed so head on over to insidetracker.com drlion and claim your 20 off for the entire inside tracker store but you know man that wasn't that wasn't hard for me like everyone thinks like taking a bullet for the president I was like all right that's fine I think because I was in service of something greater than myself when you're doing something bigger than you there was less fear for me I think it's you know in other areas I I was never afraid but I was always and I say this I was always around other people who were strong and resilient and brave so that rubs off on you and that's a huge thing I tell people who is in your circle who's in your environment your network of people you must have a network of people the network network of people should be people that you admire that inspire you that help give you courage and strength to teach you new things but if you are around the same like-mindedness and everybody is a certain way you will be that way I don't care who you are that applies to me that applies to any everybody else that's why I think even if you take people with substance abuse issues one of the things is they tell them go to rehab away don't be in your your space go away so that you have a better chance of actually dealing with your addiction because part of what you're dealing with is your environment and who's around you and what the goal is they take you out and they put you somewhere else training's the same way I was just thinking that yep training's the same way my training was first training you a secret service I had to go to Georgia I had to pick up my stuff Georgia I went from New York City to Georgia I was like wherever I can't work under these conditions what is this it's a Starbucks where's the I don't think was there Starbucks back then I don't know but I was kind of like oh my goodness this is okay so I go to Georgia I'm uncomfortable I'm right out of college I don't know anybody everyone's from all over the country everyone's got these massive military background law enforcement background we haven't had a seal in my class and I'm there and I'm thinking whoa and I'm gonna be failed out and they're happy to fill you out that was uncomfortable that's how you build bravery but I was like I'm here if I feel I feel but I'm like I'm gonna do everything I cannot do and then even training in Maryland they put you in uncomfortable environment so that you can thrive you can thrive but if you're waiting for warm and cozy and soft you can't have that just that everyone seems to be looking for because that's the narrative I know live a stress-free life everything should be good everything should be perfect and then when things are not like people just lose their minds and it's so crushing why do you think we have such high rates of depression why are people mentally struggling so much why why is there so much negativity why because people are told a narrative they are sold the story your life needs to be perfect you must be happy all the time happiness is overrated the most extraordinary things I've done in my life the most the greatest accomplishments happiness wasn't even on the radar what does that even mean I've lived a life of fulfillment but if we expect to live in the state of bliss you will be disappointed you will be depressed you will be let down time and time again your life will feel meh deal with your stuff you're supposed to go through this this wave go through it and enjoy it I love it and it's so critical iron sharpens iron get in a fight and we are we're sold this narrative that things should be easy and it should be soft and you should take a bubble bath and you should relax and it handicaps people because they believe that they should live a life that is stress-free and you know I think that we both really enjoy this book um man search for meaning he found meaning and hardship and in fact a life worth living is one that is stressful stress isn't bad if you want to say see who people are people's true nature and I would see this especially my previous career people show you who they are in moments of stress you're not thinking it's your authentic self coming through and there was like sometimes we'd have a saying when we do search warrants and arrest warrants and you would pick the people you want on your team it was very crucial because you wanted someone that you knew if there was gunfire they weren't going to leave you then we're gonna panic and go and so that is who you at least who I strive to be in I strive to find the people like who's gonna who's got my six all the time no matter what and I think that's the that's how you measure measure grit and resilience and strength it's not and it's not loud everybody thinks like heroism is loud encourages in your face and I'm going to write you this tweet and I'm going to tell everybody how strong I am it's like it's silent it's quiet truly powerful people don't need to flex in any way they just know what they are they Flex only when they need to so bold manner and bold action are not the same thing bold Manner and bold action are not the same thing bold manner is my mannerisms I'm in your face I'm this I'm that I'm trying to show everybody I'm strong but taking bold action in a moment when you need to that's different because I can be a quiet person an a silent person but when the moment needs for me to step up or take action I take it but people confuse those things I must show everybody it's like why yeah again that goes back to I need validation I'm insecure I need people to say wow you're why do I need that what advice would you leave to our children your daughter my daughter are Sons live a good life and then when I say good I don't I just live your life let me take good out live your life and be here for Humanity I believe in humanity and I believe in the goodness of humankind because it's interesting in law enforcement there was a character character trait there's one predominant character's trait and that's cynicism when they when they assess all people in the law enforcement military Community cynicism is like the number one thing and that's because in these jobs when I was a secret service agent and even the NYPD you're dealing with people at their worst and you're seeing people at their worst so what happens is you tend to see Humanity that way and to be very careful not to do that because I understood that I'm dealing with a population of people number one and I'm dealing with people when they are at their worst so don't I don't want her to be cynical I want her to see the good in humanity and I want her to have a balance of both but to be someone who contributes to the world I want her to leave something what's her Legacy and Legacy is how am I impacting people in the world now how am I coming and taking and making money and leaving I'm saying making money isn't a good thing but there's leaders out there who are very successful financially and they're doing things to impact the world impact the world do something for Humanity because that stays when you're gone that's what I hope for her it's beautiful so service oriented very altruistic and Noble yes she might who knows she might grow up and be like Mom I don't need to hear this stuff get off my back you and your your soapbox I think it's critical but I'll tell you this I also want her to live her life I my child is not my property she's not mine she's of me and I have to let her I can guide her but I want her to be her own person and she cannot be an extension of me so she might be like Mom I just want to be a ballerina all right then just go be don't have fasting right go be the best ballerina you can be I love it and again there's so much that you offer the world and I've taken a course from you you do live in-person courses in New York City you have a book becoming bulletproof which I've read you also do are you still doing mentorship I pause those because my my wait list was long but I do I was doing consulting and mentoring and uh um there's a waitlist now people can go and they can sign up for the wait list and I started doing online courses because people I began doing live sessions like the one you came to and that's how initially how we met and I started doing it online so I created like an online community where I teach twice a month and the goal was to give people life skills because I and I'm a college Adjunct professor they don't teach this I agree they don't teach this they will teach you math that the majority of the population will never you never but they don't teach you life skills and so many people are in need of them and so I launched a community called Beyond bulletproof and every month we tackle a theme or topic like this month April is going to be resilience how to build resilience and then I also allow people to come and share their stories because everyone's looking for support and not everybody has it and I understand that and although I am a person who's like who says figure it out but we also need to ask for help or get guidance we need teammates yes we need a team yeah I was lucky I had a team and I understand what that means people need a team they need a support system I I think the military and law enforcement of the best things for you for your soul not everyone agrees but but it I got something out of it on a personal level as well and majority of people majority people who go into this line of work do so because it's they want to be of service in some way um but here's the thing you can be of service to people in so many other ways even if you're an entrepreneur creating something if your goal is I'm trying to be of service in some way to people and create something like even your podcast you're you're trying to be of service to people and give them information that's the vibe that's the essence of what you want to hold on to yeah we're gonna link everything and I'm gonna definitely pop on I want to see and learn and continue to learn from you I'm so grateful and I learned from you and I just wanna you're super humble because you're my doctor I'm so grateful you know and you you help people and you I would have never thought to ask you you approached me and you said hey can I help you and I said yes yes you can yeah and so you've you've helped me you've guided me although I understood fundamentally going through training Health lifestyle and all that you know as I as I go through this world and the aging process and experiences that my body has gone through you know because I know you deal with people in the military and because these are physical jobs your body goes through a lot and so it needs care because we put some serious wear you know yeah seriously wear and tear on mine yeah um you've you've supported me and you support others in this community of well which is I didn't know that yeah um it's really meaningful to me I actually applied to go into the Navy and it didn't align with my bigger picture of going into nutritional Sciences I had an opportunity that it was either military or this fellowship and I chose the fellowship because I knew what I wanted to contribute and taking care of people that take care of the world is Paramount it's Paramount importance to me and that's why I wanted to take care of you I felt like and all with other operators as well is that we care and if I can't serve in that way I know that I can serve you I know I can serve these other military members to help them change the world yeah I I appreciate that because you've helped me so much and even with my supplements I'm like what's this one do I'm like yeah but we'll spread it out you know used to it I'm used to it but it's you need that and it's like we're not people use the term I'm self-made I'm not self-made zero I've had people along the way and everybody in some way helped me to get to where I am and even to this day like you helping me and guiding me health-wise and helping take care of me so that my body can be strong and I can be around for my daughter and be able to do the stuff I do you help me exist it's my privilege it really is um you know oftentimes the alpha individual and Alpha entrepreneur they are so capable that they don't put themselves first because they got it it doesn't matter they could be exhausted and every single one of them will run themselves into the ground and that can only last for so long before things catch up and it's really really important that we all kind of Step Up and into the the place that you know you train physically you train mentally we have to put that Healthcare piece always just as high as as everything else but thank you for your service and everything that you've done and everything that you continue to do I'm so grateful to be able to share this time with you and have you on the podcast thank you so much thank you thank you for having me [Music]