you've worked at two businesses that have done incredibly well combining product and Ops Uber always have this mentality and Open Door does to of the product opertions twin turbine jet plane where you can like fly the plane on one engine for a little bit if you need to but it's operating most efficiently and effectively if both are working together what has having been an Ops done to make you a better product leader gave a really deep understanding of how the business actually works it's a pretty good foundation for them going on to say okay what do we actually want to build in a more aable technology something else I've heard that you're very good at is staying very calm Under Pressure I've slept on the floor in China before launching lpool and like when you reflect the stress onto your teams everybody tenses up it counterintuitively doesn't produce better outcomes today my guest is Brian tolken Brian is currently head of product and design at Open Door before that he spent nearly 5 years at Uber where he joined as employee 100 before Uber had Uber X or Uber pool or any kind of shared rides he actually started on the Ops Team at Uber moved into product ended up leading product and launch of uber pool and then taking it Global he also started the product operations function at Uber before that function was really even a thing which I didn't know until the chat that we had in our conversation Brian shares a ton of lessons about building products with a heavy operational component also how to run great product reviews how he implements the job to be done framework at Open Door successfully the story behind Zillow trying to compete with Open Door failing and then partnering instead plus a ton of great stories from the early days of uber and open door and so much more if you enjoy this podcast don't forget to subscribe and followed in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube it's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously with that I bring you Brian tolken Brian thank you so much for being here welcome to the podcast thank you appreciate it thanks for having me first of all just a huge thank you to Kavon bakour for connecting us introducing us he said all kinds of amazingly nice things about you he also gave me some very hard questions to ask you I hope you've come prepared terrific put me in the hot seat okay I want to spend a bunch of time talking about product and Ops you started your career in operations at Uber you actually started on the Ops Team and you moved into product you've also worked at both Uber and at Open Door which have both huge operational components I think it's really rare that people one see a company scale to the heights of uber and open door with such a heavy operational component that are still tech companies and also it's really where someone starts an office and then moves into product and ends up where you are where your Chief product officer really successful company so I have a bunch of question here maybe the first is just what has having been an Ops done to make you a better product leader how does that change the way you operate as product leader starting on the operation side gave a really deep understanding of like how the business actually works right you are you are truly operating it day in and day out and the success of the city is you know in large part driven by the input that you are putting into it every single day on the ground and whether or not there was rain that weekend uh which was a a nice driver of metrics but talking to customers every single day like one-on-one onboarding drivers uh responding to support tickets there's no centralized support team there was no closer to the customer right and and so I think that Foundation actually for really understanding what moves the business and being super close to the customer actually is a is a pretty good foundation for them going on to say okay what do we actually want to build in a more um 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relational database or warehouse and with its locode functionality you can build and style dashboards in minutes once you're ready simply embed the dashboard or report into your application with a tiny code snippet the best part your end users can use explos AI features for their own report and dashboard generation eliminating customer data requests for your support team build and embed a fully wh labeled analytics experience in days try it for free at expo. co/ Lenny that's ex. co/ Lenny I've seen that a lot of companies and this was definitely true at Airbnb where the product team kind of looks down a little bit on the Ops Team where they're like oh we're going to we're doing things that are going to scale to millions of users we're doing these things that are going to apply to everyone there's this like Ops Team over there doing a few things that are going to not scale there keep asking us for things to build for their one off ideas uh what do you think that product teams often maybe miss or don't understand about the Ops teams that would help them see them in a different light yeah it's a great it's a great question and I think Uber always had this mentality and Open Door dust to of um kind of like a twin turbine jet jet plane where you can like fly the plane on one engine for a little bit if you need to but it's operating most efficiently and effectively if if if both are working together and uh and I think that's that's really true right the the reality is operations teams local teams can iterate faster can uh scale talking to customers really much more efficiently uh have great qualita insights and so if if it's less if it's seen more as like a Harmony instead of a a competition I think that that that that's really really helpful where it's like okay how do we get the insights that are happening day in and day out in the field on the ground whatever that may be and help us build better products because of that right like a PM sitting in San Francisco can't be in in open door's case 50 markets walking houses every single day in Uber's case you know whatever thousand cities understanding the nuances of safety in South America right it's just like not not possible but what you can do is foster a really good relationship and a really good feedback loop of how people who do deeply understand those things can help give give insights now it's actually the birth of um product operations was was sort of that that insight as well can you say more on that yeah sure so sorry I I should probably Define what what product operations was at at at Uber it was basically this notion that we had centralized This was later in my career at at at Uber but we had a centralized product team um building stuff mostly in San Francisco not strictly to their offices but at this point around the world but mostly in San Francisco and then we had a very globally distributed operations team and there's sort of a bidirectional feedback loop that wasn't wasn't super strong and that that feedback loop was basically when the epd teams in San Francisco built features how do we effectively put it in global markets and then how do we effectively get input from Global markets to better build features and uh so one solution to that problem our solution at the time was to start up a new function called Product operations who had accountability and reported into operations but physically sat with and operated much like a member of the product team to help solve that is that maybe the first time there's a like did you invent product operations as a function I I I don't I don't think so because at the time I believe Google had had a function I can't remember what Google called it it was something slightly different but I met with a few folks who had had been in similar type roles at Google and a couple other places so I I I I don't take credit for for certainly for for inventing it and other people have sort of actually dabbled in this model at at Uber before me U there was just a formalization of it and their actual building out of the organization did none of that uh sounds like you basically help make it a thing uh you know you don't want to you're very modest I think um coming back to your point about decentralized operations teams something I've read is that search pricing came out of one GM in a market just testing emailing all the drivers hey we're gonna give you extra if you drive on Saturday night is that true that would have been probably a little bit before my Tyler um but that being said one thing that is true is that um Serge pricing for for actually quite some time all of 2012 certainly 2013 probably I don't know when when we necessarily switched was a very much a humanin the loop system or a very manual system where GMS in every city would control basically the parameters in which surge would operate and so much of the time that would mean for example like Monday through Friday uh there would be no surge like it was just it couldn't flip on and then Friday nights and and Saturday nights it would flip on from what ever you said 700 p.m. to 3:00 a.m. and the cap was you know X whatever the cap was and then within those parameters the algorithm would would optimize for what the price was but yeah GM controlled whether it was on or off and what geographies um we searching wow I didn't know that was that out of uh we believe we are better than the algorithms or we just don't have time to make them amazing yet so we're just gonna help help them yeah um I think it was it was probably a function of of a bunch of stuff one of which is like hey this is a fairly new concept and it's it's powerful and uh uh dangerous and so let's like make sure we understand what's happening the second is kind of this belief that yeah local city teams know their cities best and so you might know that an event is happening a baseball game gets out right and it's like oh I know that this baseball game's going to get out at 10 p.m. so I'm going to set surge at 9:45 right and the algorithm may not be may not be able to pick that up and then the third is yeah the technical constraint of like nowadays clearly it's all automated uh but it's it's really hard to build a fully Dynamic always on um geospatially aware pricing system and that's just a little bit of time that makes sense uh I feel like you're full of wild stories from your time at Uber is there one that comes to mind of just I think you like help scale in China Ur pool yeah uh maybe that's one I don't know what's you share a wild story from early Uber days yeah so in the in the early days of of uber one one kind of fun story is uh obviously Uber X is is a main mainstream product but has a a kind of funny silly name um Uber Uber x uh this this product in the early days was uh going to be all hybrids and had had a bunch of different uh potential names I was not U personally driving this this was someone else on the operations team but they built the model for what this product could be and there's no name for it yet so it was going to be a placeholder so what do you put as some placeholder X so Uber X and then the company was moving quickly enough the product at. Greenlight it launched and here we are know 12 years later 11 years later whatever it is and uh uberX is the name that stuck so that is hilarious I love it so as a placeholder it's like many products start that way where they're like this just the temporary name and they're like okay I guess everyone just knows it this way now we're going to stick it's too too expensive to change and Rebrand at this point that's an awesome story one that um is good about scaling Uber Uber pool in China is yes so we were launching Uber pool in China and this was going to be China at the time was pretty big for for Uber but Uber pool was not there yet and so we're g we're going to launch and myself and a few other folks uh were were in changu China which is the the first Chinese market that we were launching Liverpool in and uh we were going to you know be on the ground to to to to launch um we wanted to go live at I believe it was 6: am for Rush Hour on I don't remember the day whatever Monday morning and uh so we're there over the weekend um getting getting ready to set up and at the same time we were doing some uh data center testing and so we flipped on all the testing infrastructure and and thought I was going to work and nothing works uh and the the matching algorithm just isn't isn't working and like oh my God now it's you know whatever 5:00 pm the day before we're supposed to go live 6 PM 7 P.M okay let's get on the phun with the us trying and figure out what's going on I remember I slept it up 30 minutes that night between 2 and 3:00 am uh being like okay well we like we have to go live at at 600 am I think there was some press around it right like we were planning on going live uh and I think we got everything finally working and probably about 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning and uh launch just in the nick of time and I'll I'll I'll never forget it was we launched it was great we monitored everything was good and then we walked out um for breakfast at like 7:30 in the morning everyone sleep dead no no one slept all night and we got this um these like pancake street food things and I I have to imagine they were not that good but in my mind that was like the best meal I've ever had in my life so it's like a meal after a marathon or yeah exactly big hike exactly yeah exctly everything's so delicious this comes up a lot of just like these moments that are so incredibly stressful and hard and sleep deprived end up being like the best memories and the best stories to tell and things you look back at fun like it's so weird how human nature is like that yeah I mean another one more more recent for for Open Door um was uh we um when Co hit right we like physically we buy and fell homes and so we were physically going into people's homes and uh you know something March 2020 like going into people's homes was not uh not something you people were comfortable with and you look at the real estate data coming out of China at the time and it it looked like sort of coming to a standstill and so we we actually turned off the core business and we stopped buying homes for a few months hey we we can't go in and we don't know if anyone's going to be buying uh any homes and so you know what what are we do and and we took those few months and then came out the other side and had virtualized the whole process and it was pretty stressful right because you're looking at a business that relies on going into people's homes and suddenly you can't do that anymore what do you do so again a fond memory to look back on a very stressful time in the moment uh where where it feels very very difficult just since you mentioned open door I think many people have heard of open door maybe just give a quick explanation of what Open Door does for people that aren't exactly sure so we're digital platform to buy and sell real estate um the the core product today um is a seller focused product where people can go online um enter some information about their ho and we'll make um an all cash offer to be able to sell sort of Simplicity and and and certainty and uh yeah so so the the product really works for people who have a want something that that is certain and simple and easy um I don't know if you've ever sold a home but it can be a very stressful difficult process with showings and open houses and how to price it and will it sell and all of that stuff and so we offer um basically a way to to skip the whole process so basically sell your house to open door and it's just like cool done we want sell your home you pick your closing date you move out when you want um yeah there's no uh no hassle sounds sounds amazing I want that um coming back to Ops and product just to kind of close This Thread uh again you've worked at two businesses that have done incredibly well combining product and Ops are there any just broad lessons you've taken away from how to make these two teams and functions work well together and to build a business that's very Ops heavy but also offer driven yeah the the first one we we touched on which is a there's there's just got to be mutual respect right both both functions have their their time and their place and their skill sets and uh you just don't don't build bu big build big businesses of this type without respecting the fact that NB need to exist the second uh particularly on the product and Engineering side is really understanding where and how the technology leverage comes from the business and then being really focused on making sure generally especially in the earlier days uh you are more limited on the technical resourcing side than you might be on the operational resourcing side and so how do you be really focused on where to invest your time effort and energy uh uh technically which is why most of the engineering effort for Uber was on the dispatching system and the pricing system that's just where the leverage was at the time given given the scarcity of resources and so I think the second one is being really intentional about where those separ are and then being really forthcoming and saying hey that means all these other places where yes it can make things easier more efficient etc etc we are okay not investing in right now and that needs to be an explicit decision um and and very transparent and then the the last bit I would say is a deep understanding that the real world has entropy and it's hard and it's messy you know for us we at Open Door we go into homes you know someone may not be home scheduling may be off that Uber driver may cancel there may be low GPS all these things happen right computers are deterministic but humans aren't right and so Building Products that have a little bit more Flex or a little bit more fail safes in case those things happen uh it becomes a little bit more of a Paramount one other thing the last thing I would say is I think that the companies evolve as well so what I talked about at the beginning of uber being you know very focused from an engineering and and product side on the dispatching system the pricing system obviously over time that's evolved now there's is centralized all of these functions as the company got bigger and more mature and scale and optimization started to be more important than expansion and sort of that Petri dis petri dish of trying new stuff and the tools got better and the tech got easier and there was more internal infrastructure and so over time things can start one way and and shift over time as the business needs let's actually spend more time there you keep saying things that I want to that make me want to dig deeper so at Airbnb we went through the same thing where there there's all these local Ops teams driving Supply finding homes Bringing Down the platform and then there's like this Tipping Point where the product and organic growth Award of mouth ended up driving more and then orders of magnitude more so there's no need for these folks to spend time doing these sort of things can you just maybe share an example either at Uber open door when you talk about like there's a time and a place and a skill set for Ops how that evolved like what was the team doing initially and then what did they end up doing as things grew yeah I mean maybe maybe a very um easy good example to pick just one part of the the Uber process in the early days is at small scale uh actually back windows is Uber black drivers every um driver was individually onboarded in like a 90 minute to a twoh hour in person in the office on boarding um with deep setting of expectations the next version of that so that's obviously very off striven the next version of that is kind of like a small class type setting of three or five or six drivers at at a given time um also very obstr and and then as we we got into more mass market products like Uber taxi or Uber ax I was like okay maybe 20 or 30 at a time okay now it's a little bit bigger classroom settings and we said okay let's make a video instead of giving verbally the same presentation let's just make an onboarding video and uh that that was the next set of scale but that now suddenly we have a different problem which is is okay you have to validate all of these credentials so most driver's license you who they are all that stuff at one person easy at three to four at a time easy 10 at a time little more challenging but fine at 20 at a time okay you're starting to run up onto it now at you you fast forward six months and you're doing a thousand a week or whatever okay suddenly your system breaks it's like okay we have reached the point where like operational system improvements it's like no longer viable so you say okay what are what are the like that we've gone from the iteration stage to the scale stage and and technology is uniquely good at scaling so now we say Okay instead of having a bunch of folks around the world taking pictures of driver's licenses and validating and doing all that stuff how do we integrate with some type of OCR technology or Auto recognition of driver's licenses that feeds to A system that knows what a driver's license is I can do automatic validation and suddenly you've done two things one you've scaled your system and two you've just created a ton of time for what at the time was probably dozens if not hundreds of people running these onboarding sessions all over the country or world at the time to do other stuff right and so now you can sort of level that up and say okay do we do more analytics do we do more figure out the next process that needs optimization or whatever the case may be and that virtu cycle just continues the way like to think about this is do things that don't scale and then scale the things that you're doing that's the phrase I always come back to exactly this reminds me of a hot take that a previous podcast guest shared in a newsletter post Casey winers he talked about that operations is usually and this is kind of it's a hot take that operations is a sign of inefficiency and over time your job is to kind of squeeze that away and make it product software as much as possible doesn't mean you always get there thoughts yeah I I I I actually don't fundamentally it depends on what the operations is but I don't fundamentally disagree but I think the the right lens to think about it is um and then those those folks can move on to the next challenge um right and so there's always another Hill to climb right and so I think that was one of the things at Uber and open door where there's sort of this culture of on the ground experimentation that's really helped where yeah like we were just talking driver onboarding may now be solve with technology and a few extra hours a day like how do we get better at um optimizing the uberX system how do you start tinkering with food delivery how do you start you know thinking about higher capacity vehicles have you think about better feedback for those manual surge pricing sort of too that we talked about right there's so I generally agree it just generally free that capacity to solve more problem it feels like a big part of this is uh making sure the operations teams understand there is more opportunity even if this ends up being automated it your job is not going to go away we're going to find something new to try and experiment and do things that don't skip y awesome okay going a completely different direction good uh I hear you're very good at product reviews okay a few people few people told me this I'm curious how you set up a product review and any things you've learned any tips for how to run an effective product review that's very kind of of whoever mentioned that um but but yes uh big big fan of of doing them actually in particular to maybe Bridge the conversations and in companies that have Ops driven cadences because or or or start out very Ops driven because the cadences can sometimes be different right and so um the operational cadences that you might have something like a wbrr a weekly Business Review may not be conducive to always picking your head up and saying like Hey where's the product going on a slightly longer time frame and so I think product reviews in general for all companies are probably really helpful but actually in particular for for some of the uh product and operations Led Led companies in terms of of things I've I've learned I think being really intentional about what the the the goals are I think it's okay to say that there are two goals a goal of sort of like accountability and inform to an audience but also most importantly I think this is the the primary goal is to help make the product better right to help the teams think through a problem and to have that again back to our our earliest conversation be a very intellect ual uh conversation about the work and how to make the product better and not super scary like product reviews hopefully are not feeling like firing squads that's that's a a scary environment to be in and not necessarily one that's conducive to how do we make the product better obviously sometimes the conversations have to get a little um intense but but in general that's what we're shooting for is something that helps the team go back and think through how to make the product D so the two goals you try to communicate for product reviews accountability SL informing people what's happening but also just like we are here to make the product better and setting that context yep is there anything you do specifically to make it not feel like a firing squad like you're coming in here to be attacked and criticized is there you said context at the beginning of the meeting is this just a part of the culture yeah I think um definitely part of the culture but also uh I I'm a firm believer in general that the people closest to the problems also have the best context to solve that that problem and so as a more your voice in the room often the job is probing asking questions throwing out ideas in a way that says like hey this is an idea this is not a mandate right this is a a thought right and if there's context missing that would inform the product Direction then providing that context in not a question asking sense but but a hey this is context that that you might not be aware of um and so I think it's it's all in how you show up as a leader and what that looks like in terms of probing and pushing the team on Dimensions that they not May that they may not be thinking about and then understanding that the team is bringing a perspective that you don't have which is they think about this problem 40 50 60 hours a week and you might think about this problem three hours a week right so you bring a a breath the team brings a depth and hone you marry that I don't know if you heard dares Shaw's episode or his thing on flash tags have you seen this I have not no okay he has a whole system so he talked about how his a you want people to not take everything you tell them as feedback as I need to do this so he has a whole set of hashtags that communicate how important this is to him from hash FYI to uh to suggestion to uh plea yes pleading you yeah this was actually explained to me I don't I don't think I've seen the original Source uh so I'll go back and and and watch it but this was explained to me as this I'm actually big fan I think that's I think that's great yeah said set again everyone on the same page okay maybe one last question here who do you who do you try to invite to product reviews do you have any Frameworks and ways of thinking of who to invite who not to invite yeah good good question uh we I would say have uh oscillated over time but in general um big subscribers of the the the best conversations happen when they're relatively small so try and keep it under under 10 um could be wide distribution uh the document right the the artifacts created are actually really powerful and they're they're powerful for the whole team to understand and and sort of secret power is they're very powerful for new people who are onboarding to be got here here are the last 20 product reviews you'll got a pretty good idea of what's going on right but generally the conversation itself try to keep relatively tip I'm trying to keep it and these artifacts you mean they recordings of the meeting that people can watch or yeah or or just the document um depends Onan culture is whether you want to record it or or just have the document either way and then is there some kind of specific Cadence you operate on is it like a weekly product revie that people can sign up for does every team have how do you how do you like to set this up the Cadence yeah obviously Scouts are with the size of the company for us right now what's working well is uh yeah sign up Cadence we have two two slots a week that um anyone can can sign up for as their product area needs it and then if there's something that um we would love to see that we haven't seen in bit we do a little bit of all in telling to to to make sure that the work is generally cing cycling through on a corly basis this episode is brought to you by ATO a radically new type of CRM there's a world where your CRM is powerful easily configured and deeply intuitive ATO makes that a reality ATO is built specifically for the next era of companies it syncs with your data sources easily configures to their unique structures and works for any go to market motion from self-served to sales Le ATO automatically enriches your contacts syncs your email in calendar gives you powerful reports and lets you quickly build zapier style automations the next era of companies deserves more than an inflexible one siiz fits all CRM join modal replicate 11 labs and more and scale your startup to the next level head to ato.com Lenny and you'll get 15% off your first GE that's ato.com Lenny adjacent topic uh I hear you're a big fan of jobs to be done which is okay so it's a it's it's a fun recurring topic on this podcast we've had many people that love it many people that hate it I love seeing both sides of it uh I love that you find it helpful and you implement it at Open Door I'd love to hear just how you actually apply it it open door what you've learned about how to apply jobs to be done effectively yeah I think like all Frameworks um the right answer is to to pick your set of Frameworks have more Tools in your tool box and then actually understand when and and and how to apply them so we try to avoid um being a hammer and everything's a nail uh we try to you know for Force the framework if if it's not working but I think what we what I really like about it is it forces you to put yourself in the customer shoes I think in a slightly deeper way um and and be a little bit more empathetic um when I think about building at Open Door versus say building at Uber or when you building at Airbnb is uh we are not most people at open or not um we don't have homes to sell every week or every month uh nor do we buy homes every week or every month right this on average in the US is is something people do once every seven years you know I'm sure the average at Open Door is something similar and so it's a little bit harder to like be a customer I took Uber every day you probably used Airbnb a number of times a year and so you know in some in some senses for some of those companies you can build for yourself you you would into it a job to be done because you're just kind of doing it for yourself we don't necessarily have that context and so a framework that forces us to be really thoughtful and intentional about uh how a customer might perceive or product is really helpful the other thing that I like about it is sort of the canonical version of it encourages you to think about the context in which the user is operating or the other things outside of your product um that they that they might be going through and uh in our case the buying home buying or selling Journey often is a certainly multi-week if not multi-month or multi quarter Journey with a lot of complexity and a lot of conversations outside of our product you may be talking to an agent you may be talking to a friend you may be driving around a city trying to find a house and the the framework is very flexible and encouraging of saying what is actually the job to be done of this user when they're thinking about our product and what is the context in which they're operating I'd love to go one level deeper to talk about how you actually implement it do you have like templates of like you have a startup project there's like as a blank I blank blank blank how do you so we we we do have I would say we're um medium uh rigorous on sort of template standardization or adherence um so we do have a template the standard product review template um talk talks about um jobs to be done sort of has a section for like what is the problem statement and what are the jobs to be done and this is a dock that when you're coming to a product review the person running it and coming is like filling out this document correct pre pre-filling it up sorry pre filling it out and uh you know again I think we are not sticklers about always using that template but you know I think the beauty of a template is yes it sets expectations of what what you expect but it's also just easier often for people to be able to work off something and so um yeah it's part of our product review template and then part of our planning process as well uh because we've used it for for a while I think there's there's been an internalization of the culture where people also just start commenting about it or writing about it and saying like hey what is the what is the job to be done here or like what is the user trying to do which is another colloquial phrase in it and so um yeah I think there's a cultural seeping that has happen for memory just like what is in this template so like what's the phrasing that you try to use for setting up a problem yeah yeah I mean there the specific phrase uh I would have to go remind myself on the template itself but generally it looks like you know context problem potential solution uh risks risk premortal and you know me measurement of success um and then we also try to um sort of bucket our product reviews by um stage so you could be in the ideation stage which might look very different than uh you the very end of the process like hey we're getting we're getting ready to you know speak speak now forever hold your piece those two artifacts will okay so it's not like I as a blank like the standard jobs to be done language it's not exactly how you implement it it's more just make sure we're thinking of it what is the problem for the customer what is the context of their problem correct yeah yeah we're not we're not um mad liing our okay awesome uh any other tips or lessons about just working well with this concept of job to be done maybe like when you come into open door and like hey everyone we're going to be thinking this way is there anything there that would be useful to people if they're trying to operate this way uh recognizing that um uh correctly implementing a framework any framework but to speedon in particular we can talk about um takes a little bit of of time in getting used to and understanding and so I don't I I don't think you can just like okay we're going to make the template and then that makes the content better that just takes people's content and they wedge it into the template it's actually the like cultural internalization of like hey this might be phrased as the job to be done but like is this actually the job to be done like let's talk about why the customer might um be in that situation or not be in that situation or I think the job to be done might actually be something else uh you you might say hey the job to be done is you know um maybe an early day version would be like the job to be done is to get an offer from open door and it's like kind of but like the broader job to be done might be like price Discovery for the customer right so you can have a rich conversation where it's like well one might be like a little bit influenced by our business goals right I don't think you just run around and people are like yeah I'm gonna sell my house my job like my goal is to get an offer from over door it's like well like you know and so that's like okay the template might be the same but like it's actually the content that takes a little bit of culture instantiation got it and it sounds like people talk from what is the job to be done that feels like a core part of the way you think about it what is the job to be done y that just that language alone feels really powerful is there a resource or a book that you point people to to help your team learn about the way job to be done work is there like one kind of thing you find useful not about jobs to be done we have I I point people I do a lot more pointing people towards like internal examples of where I saw other PS maybe do this well or blogs and stuff but um your your blog isn't common when we pass around um not about jobs to be done but just about about many many topics so I'm flattered thank you yes I really appreciate that I was also thinking as you're talking your friends with Kavon and jobs you done on Twitter was uh quite quite the journey for them traumatic for a lot of people I think it went very far to the extreme of the yeah I think they're more dogmatic about it very dogmatic and so I guess it's a lesson here don't maybe don't take it that far yeah yeah and I think it probably I and I don't know if Kon would agree with this I imagine he would the generalized version of like uh you pick the right framework for the right job and if you say uh you know there's one framework to rule them all and this is the only framework that works and we're going to force every promt into it then job I the way I think about jobs to be done is exactly the way you're describing it where it's just just think from the lens of the job to be done for customers is this so for my newsletter like what is the job to be done of my newsletter it's to help you become better at your job as a product person Building Product so and that actually ends up being really helpful and it feels like that's kind of the way you guys think about it at open yeah absolutely and you're crushing it by the way thank you so are you you talked about I'm going to go into another question to deflect your compliment you mentioned that Uber there's a million transactions happening every second it's massive scale Open Door is completely different you have like very few very large transactions yeah uh I'm curious how you do experiments if you do experiments do you do ab tests what have you learned about just how to Think Through low sample sizes is plus AB testing yeah um very hot topic of conversation we do ab test um it is obviously the gold gold standard and so we do as much as we we can of AB testing that are parts of our funnel and flow that have more volume than others so top funnel AB testing easier than than down funnel um AB testing uh surely product um uh or Tech uh feature it's easier than AB testing processes operational processes but uh but you're totally right um we are not doing hundreds of millions of transactions a year um and so experimentation can can be uh more challenging and so I think one one way to think about it is a knowledge the problem right which is to say don't and we we've made this mistake uh many many times but don't just for for yourself into AB testing without running the power analysis and say like hey are we going to get results what is the the size that will'll detect and uh what is the runtime of that experiment and is that and be honest like is that acceptable for there are certain so a second lesson here is there are certain experiments that are important enough and it's hard to triangulate signal in any other way that you may say six-month runtime is an acceptable outcome and we we're going to start it in June and we will be smarter for it for 2025 planning and we're going to set it and forget it and we're grateful we did right and that that's okay but what the the only mistake here is like thinking you'll get an answer in a month when you won't and then pretending you do and then waking up a month later and being like well it was insignificant and this and that and okay we could have known that right and so and then the third thing is like experimentation is all about increasing your conviction in the the the problem or the solution right so the generalized version of the statement is if there are parts of your funnel or flow that are lowend and you can't run a canonical AB test how might you otherwise increase your conviction in in the solution that you're building and there turns out there a decent number of other ways to do that the first best most obvious is talk to more customers but you know there are other sort of statistical techniques that again aren't as rigorous or good but but may be possible you may be able to use observational data you may do with this death um you may be able to look at sister cities or or Twin Cities you may be able to to sment by go you may be able to reduce your power and say hey we're going to run at 80% confidence for all of our experiments instead of the traditional 95% because that's a worthy tradeoff and if we're wrong one more time out of 10 that's okay you can do a long-term hold out to to to match your intuition and so there's a lot of other techniques to sorry to home your intuition um there's a lot of other techniques to build conviction and confidence and so we're we try to be very creative on doing that and then the last last bit I would say is if you're not going to get significance if there's no other techniques at your disposal then sometimes you just got to trust your intuition and ship it and if that's where if that's what you believe then that's what what you Le and um you shouldn't spend time trying to get false Precision I want to spend more time on the last point but real quick the power analysis you talked about there's people don't know there's calculators out there that you could just plug in here's how much traffic I'm getting here's how much of a impact difference I want to see here's how long it'll take to to find out yep exactly totally um and uh some of the calculators are great where you can also plug in the traffic and your acceptable runtime and it will tell you the minimum impact and then you can gut check your own intuition so you can you can play around with that awesome we'll try to link to one of those in the show notes so um on the intuition piece is there anything more there just like how you think about when you you know you run the product team just how you recommend people leverage intuition versus not because some companies are like we're we're just going to trust the data I don't really trust your opinion you don't know like like you don't know you don't know this customer exactly like you talked about opener I'm not buying houses myself so so I don't know how much I can trust my intuition just what's your general advice to your product team of how to think about their intuition and when to rely on it versus not so at Open Door for example I'd say on on the relative Spectrum we're quite data driven and then it's when we come into this challenge right where we say okay like let's that is another technique or tool in the toolbox I think the generalized version of that is customers products people can surprise you right and so uh this happens all the time for for people who build build products I'm sure you've got great stories from airbn you saw something put it out there just was very all the time all the time all the time right and so I think there there's definitely a humility to say you know if you can if it's relatively easy to test your assumptions or test your hypotheses that is that is always better to go check yourself and yeah that takes a little bit of humility to say that but like we've all been wrong plenty of times but if that's just like not on the table I think the reality is you can't pretend it is and sometimes you got to use taste and judgment and and then you say okay what is my conviction level and do I have even just medium low or high conviction and if I have anything low or medium conviction and it's a decision of consequence I should yeah talk to more customers gut check it with another person and see if their intuition match is something that gets me personally to the high high bucket category and then I think the the last part which is some part of experimentation is if you just ship something because your it's your Intuition or it's where you want to see the product go do you have a reasonable feedback loop to understand whether or not you are correct right so that could be customer support or ticket volume or future adoption whatever the case is it may not be an aler metric and a traditional AB test but like some more rigorous system that says I had this hypothesis we just shipped it for XYZ constraint reason for right I think it's awesome advice agree with everything you're saying you mentioned this word humility and is a good segue to something I want to talk about which is Zillow okay one of the most interesting things that's happened in your space is Zillow basically decided hey we're just going to do what Open Door is doing they launched it you're basically Frenemies for a while and then they're like no we we're not we're we're it's not working now you partner and say now you work with Zillow on on this stuff so are you able to share what went down there with the story of what happened how it went and where things are at now yeah uh I mean we we do partner with Zillow um Zillow has been a fantastic partner uh for us and we've really enjoyed um sort of a working relationship uh with them I think when you think about it he have um tremendous amount of of reach and and Alli and all Beach like online platforms um have tremendous reach or an audience and we happen to have a fairly leag selling solution and so um there's there's sort of a nice uh not to use a business school word but there's a nice Synergy so to speak between um a high intend audience who's doing a lot of browsing and and and and searching and and Discovery and starting their process on one of these online platforms and what we offer which is you know transaction services that allow people to actually uh move particularly on the seller side and so there's there there's just a a pretty nice semiotic relationship there with the zos and and the rends of the world and so both of those comp have been been great partners for us what do you think Zillow maybe underestimated or didn't get about the space that made it harder than they anticipated because it seems obvious of course let's go down funnel let's just do it all and they're like oh not working uh what do you think they didn't get or you think they missed um I guess continuing on the humility point I I won't necessarily pretend to to to to be in their shoes but I will say like the business is challenging and it's complex from a number of different dimensions right it's not a traditional software only product right you have to be really good at pricing you have to be really good at product you have to be really good at at the operations you have to be really disciplined at risk you have to be really good in the capital markets right and so you have to put all of these functions together to build a vertically integrated product and uh that's the reality and so that that is something that's been in open do DNA from day one because we started with a vertically integrated product and so you know we can't deliver unless you have all of those things right and so I think that that's something that continues to help us to the to this day is that vertical integration um requires all of those pieces coming together that makes a lot of sense and I think it's a good reminder of there are recent markets and businesses that always feel like oh we can expand to that someday such a big opportunity this business could be so much bigger and then you realize your business is completely not set up to operate this way Zillow is very softwar driven right like just the way like I'm not going to simplify what they do but it's like a website very software yeah and obviously as we talked about opur a huge operational component and then as you said the pricing piece and the the debt stuff yeah yeah totally yeah yeah so I think it's a really good reminder that just like when you're taking on something completely different uh you may it may not fit into the way your company operates and partnering makes sense anything else there that's interesting to share around the Zillow thing I guess one is maybe it was just like I imagine it was very stressful zillow's getting into it oh what are we gonna do they got all the traffic yeah anything there yeah I mean it's it's certainly stressful um I think in general we we try to live by with Zilla or anybody else um being um competition aware but not necessarily competition focused and and the reality is vast vast vast in our space a vast majority of people still move the traditional way and so this isn't something it's like um the the size of the prize isn't particularly large in off short or anything like that real is the largest asset classroom in the United States and if we just say super focused on like hey who are the customers that we serve really that we talk to every day there's there's a little bit of confidence that comes from being able to stay focused on that regardless in thetive environment again because it's not like the market is fully saturated this is the same thing back in in the Uber days as well like transportation is almost infinitely large you know and so yes there's that feels like there's heated competition between run l or whatever back from the day but the reality is there's plenty of trips that happen people need to get around the city in plenty of different ways that's neither Uber norlift and staying focused on on how you can go um for for your customer um I think the best way to focus there's a a podcast that will come come out before this episode with Jeff Weinstein from stripe who's building stripe Atlas they had a similar experience with angelist launch direct competitor to Angel to Atlas and then they realized Atlas is so much better forget it we're just going to send everyone to atas really yes and I think it's the same exact lesson that if you just stay focused on jobs to be done let's say what is the job to be done and do the best possible job and knowing that the market is much bigger that you're not really competing with someone else another company it's like it's the default behavior in your case it's like people are just buying their house the old fashioned way that's the actual competition exactly yep yeah okay so kind of along these lines something else I've heard that you're very good at is staying very calm under pressure and staying very level-headed when things are really crazy this is something that a lot of people uh are not good at especially leaders they stress everyone out things go crazy they don't create a good vibe and then two something people want to get better leaders and non-leaders alike any lessons anything you've learned about just how to develop this skill you know I think um part part of us may have been um uh sharpened in the early days of uber where everything felt like a fired all the time and so was the the only way to to operate but you know I I I think you almost hit the nail on the head um in the question uh which is like a little bit of an intellectual answer of when you reflect the stress onto your teams everybody tenses up and tightens up right and so it doesn't it counterintuitively doesn't produce better outcomes and so I think the other reality to to sort of remind ourselves and these are a bunch of like mantras that just like are in these moments is You're Never As Good As you think you are you're never as bad as you think you are and so sort of that that more even keal demeanor I think allows you to have a clearer head when you're operating under the the the pressure and to think think more clearly I think one of the like maybe least helpful answers but unfortunately is sort of a reality is you kind of got to be in some stressful situations to also have the perspective that the cycle pass things pass and and that remaining calm is is is is what matters and so maybe the the advice there is uh reflecting on when these situations happen um exposing yourself to them not running from them and then learning from them so that the next time it comes around you can you can say hey I you know I've been here before you know I've I've slopped on the floor in China before launching you know Uber pool and thinking we're going to miss a launch deadline and like what were the tools in my tool box in my toolkit that work show me that um in terms of getting it done um or not and what love that so part of it is just go through this experience many times and you will start to realize okay it's not actually going to be as bad as people may think uh you mentioned this toolkit instead of tool is there anything else there that you come back to that ends up being helpful you mentioned this Mantra of like it's not never as bad as people think it is never great as people think it is yeah I mean I think um exposing yourself to other people people's stories um or however you you you may learn um is is really really helpful so yeah again like um whether it's your podcast or books or or biographies or uh me one of the podcasts that I I love it Founders podcast um which talks about obviously historical famous entrepreneurs and obviously these are elevating like very famous people already but there's a lot to learn from a lot of these stories as well and understanding that the joury in the path is is nom near it never is for anybody right and so I think being able to expose yourself to other stories that even made if you don't have those personal experiences and then understanding how others navigate got it so just hearing of other people's crazy experiences and kind of building on this muscle of like okay they've gone through crazy stuff things work out yeah totally we'll make it we'll make it through okay I have this note here that I think either someone mentioned about you or may you may may may have mentioned that product is finding the kernel of Truth in a sea of ambiguity and signals does that mean anything to you yeah absolutely I mean I think um in most organizations and to do the job effectively you're going to get signals from any everywhere right and good ideas come from everywhere it may be your CS team or CX team it may be a customer directly it may be a conversation you had it may be a YouTube video you watch that sparken idea and maybe feedback from an executive it may be whatever you went out and did a field visit like you are going to get a lot of inputs around what people think about your product where people think you should do next and I think the the core job is to understand what really matters right like what is noise what is a good idea what is a suggestion what is uh and what is uh you know back to the jobs to be done for like what is really going to move the customer forward and unfortunately that means you know saying to maybe what sounds like some good ideas you know along the way but if you can really figure out like this is really what matters that that's the core part of the job and it doesa us even back to our earlier conversation you know if you don't in the early days of building Tech and Ops companies is where's the tech leverage like it's same question right where's the kernel of what really matters that Tech can uniquely solve and let's go do that and be comfortable with other fires may be burning that's what really really really matters um It's A Hard discipline I love that uh if there's not an example that's totally fine but when you talk about this finding this kernel where Tech could be highly leveraged is there any example that comes to mind of that working out really well I mean I think back back in the in in the Uber days I think it was like Hey we're not going to build sophisticated tooling infrastructure we're not going to build a centralized growth team we're not going to build any of that because like if you think about the the early Uber network from the the simplest form you've got a rider and a driver and you need to connect them price the transaction and issue some receipts probably you know collect payment so it's like okay do we do that really well and until we do that really well like all the other stuff is noise right it's actually it's it's immaterial how efficiently we answer support tickets like that's not critical right and so now it's super critical right but like in the early days it's not that critical and like even the like customer acquisition costs may not be like super critical because you in this case scra on the things and so you know pouring fuel on the fire remain may not be super ficient there so I think that's like a good a very good generalized example um one other tip that that maybe is helpful here uh that um I frankly constantly work on and try to get at is all these ideas and feedback that comes from everywhere like make sure it's written down for a number of reasons one you can then go reference it but two part of the the the job is making sure the people who present those ideas are heard and respected and know that it's it's at least somewhere where it was considered right and then you can look at it all and say like okay but what actually really really really really matters here and uh yeah that's a another tip when you say written down is it is there like tools you find really helpful here is it just like put it in a big dock that we're keeping is there anything you find to actually operationalize that I've seen different companies do it do it differently but wherever you tend to try and keep a backlog whether that's yeah a Google sheet or your actual backlog J whatever you use but at least it feels like okay the context was captured and the idea is there awesome okay I'm going to take us to uh a recurring segment on this podcast called failure Corner okay is there a story you can share of a time you failed in your career had a big failure and how that experience made you better we can talk about like the very early days of uber pool and and kind of the like first launch if you will um in in San Francisco so carpooling product uh multiple Riders and in was head car and we had this idea that it would be effective to um uh for commuters uh this is very very early days and so part of part of the launch was okay we're gonna beta it with just some um popular sort of commuting corridors with specific companies or you know maybe uh the marina to to Google whatever right and and try and match people according to you know what their companies and that's s drive and it um we very quickly realized that uh back to sort of like what the Cal truth is here is like liquidity is the only thing that matters um and there just wasn't enough um there was never going to be enough to sort of do this like company based thing that wasn't the strategy that was going to work for from us and so you know I the reason I I don't know if it's like a full failure is like maybe this is true of all failures is you learn from it you PIV it you go on to the next thing and and obviously we we we did that and um then spent a lot of our time and effort trying to say okay what are the bounds of liquidity and driving liquidity that we can do to understand what the the most important or what the sort of limits of the product are so as an example we launched and many people in San Francisco remember this sort of a$ dollar anywhere in San Francisco work pool promotion which is obviously a great deal obviously cost a lot of money but the whole idea here is like oh okay if liquidity is what really matters if we were to juice that and really Drive liquidity how how high can our metrics get and then we can go chase you know more sustainable ways to do that but it was a a sort of a interesting fail case from from from launching and learning to say hey this initial strategy just is work we we got to go we got to go and part of it was a hedging strategy where we with a small audience and there'll be a baed population it's like well this one you just got to go I think a lesson there is also don't overthink it don't try to get too cute just like this is a yeah the we're uh we're trying to make a perfect beta test versus like realizing okay we just need a lot more people in it yep also your $5 promotion made me think of the early promotions of like the ice cream and the bunnies delivery and all that stuff yeah that was by the way uh a example of like Bully distributed the the benefit of having those early Petri dishes um someone uh a local marketing manager like hey this would be fun yeah it would be really fun and the platform can support it and those promotions were fantastic right and uh and it started out I can't remember if the first one was ice cream or puppies I think it was ice cream but yeah then branched into all sorts of stuff boats ice cream puppies kittens I think and uh you all all credit goes to sort of like local ideas of inspiration just being focused on trying to to to grow the things I love that we've circled back to the beginning of our conversation product and Ops working together the benefits of both before we get to a very exciting lightning round is there anything else that you wanted to share any last nuggets of wisdom that you think might be useful to people when they're trying to build product companies teams um this was great we covered we covered uh quite a bit of ground I think the the only um I don't know if this is a generalized wisdom but something I've been thinking about um as as my career has progressed a little bit uh especially B out Pro organizations especially as uh more tools come online it's very clear that there's different um types of of PMs and we spent a lot of time talking about ones we could operate in the physical and the digital or the product and and and operations worlds but even within that there's uh more you know technical PMS who grew up in then engineering discipline there are people who came from Ops and there are people who from from design and grew up in in sort of more user experience background and uh one thing that I've been been M on on as you as you build out um the team is thinking you know similar to a to a product road map is like it's not really about like is this person good or bad or whatever it's is this person's skill set and context match to the problem that is is is really needed um and so back to that you know conversation on hey where do we get Tech leverage it's like hey is this person who has this unique skill set as a PM well suited for this problem type I don't know if that's that's helpful but it's something I've been spending a lot of time thinking about especially in this fi job posting matage fi product manager or whatever it's actually like well like how can we be a little bit more thoughtful about what what the actual skill set needs on this type awesome it's kind of like a person product fit there you go and I think it's because a lot of companies hire generalists and they're just like we'll hire someone smart ambitious and with experience and general experience and then we'll put them on different things so I think these are two different philosophies and it probably makes a lot of sense for an open door with like very unique type of business very specific skills that are necessary to be really good there okay amazing Brian with this we've reached our very exciting lightning round are you ready let's do it can't wait let's do it first question what are two or three books they you've recommended most to other people shoe dog Black Swan um Design of Everyday Things and for a fun one Shanter on Amazing four books four books for the price of two to three I love it apologies I'll stick to the rules no no there's no rules there are no rules there you go next next question do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed I like the sports sort of docy ones on Netflix so full swing draft to survive break points tennis golf F1 all of them and wasn't there that Nike documentary recently with Ben affle there is which I have not seen so uh if it's good I don't know if that's a recommendation or just an acknowledgement it's worth watching if you like shoe dog I feel like you would enjoyed it was entertaining Michael Jordan uh things like that next question do you have a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love so we just got a puppy and uh we are about to have our first uh child and so all of my purchases recently are puppies and and and children focus uh we've been uh my buddy gifted us the the FI colar for for our dog and so we've uh been really uh really enjoying that um another one uh as I'm getting busier for for news and stuff is a particle which uh is great news news aggravation tool AI news tool okay V wife's business I we've I'm a huge fan actually I think it just came out of beta and now it's like a full app that anyone can download uh I've been I just actually installed it yesterday again and I love it uh I get these pushes every every few time like I don't know it's like a couple times a day of just like here's what's happening than you uh also congratulations I should have said on your pending child thank you lucky for you I have a newsletter post with all the products you should buy it's called Uh new parent gift guide for product managers love it will um definitely probably buy all of them if you don't already have them all I know everyone's probably sending you their spreadsheets of all their favorite stuff exactly okay next question do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to share with people either in work your in life Mo mostly just stay curious stay curious I love it two more questions who has most influenced you in the course of your career one of the people who uh inspired me very early on in my product Journey I've been fortunate to have a number of very um good good mentors and obviously we talked about early about Founders or books or what matter s read a lot from other people's Journey but one one person who is personally important to me early in my product are very supportive um with this guy Nam named Jeff Jeff Holden who was the chief product officer at Uber back in the day and was sort of like a young PM transing into product really you know took took me under his wing and I think I'm forever grateful for for that um for for JE for helping um grow my career but also uh try to pay it forward a little bit in terms of people who are't really in the career that was where meure me last question I hear that your interview at Uber was pretty wild can you tell that story yeah I can so um long story short I was uh starting a company my senior spring um before graduation and we had to go our separate ways so I hadn't done you know traditional recruiting or whatever and uh my buddy called me up and like Hey we're looking for smart hardworking people at this this Uber thing are you interested and uh quick a side note I had actually done some uh very early diligence work on uh these taxi apps back in 2011 looking at um time was Uber cab and cabulous and tax M and probably something M mean nothing these days and uh so I knew what what what what Uber was um and so I said yeah sure let's you know I would love to um and so had the first round of interview went well and I said great and the next stage is is come on site s so the the full anada one works and this was you know postgraduation I was helping out some companies but didn't have a full-time job so I said hey like I'm pretty flexible I'll have about next Tuesday great so we scheduled it and then on uh Friday or Saturday over the weekend uh I looked and like oh Tuesday's July 4th I'm like I scheduled my interview for July 4th and so I called my buddy I'm like hey I'm so sorry I don't want to make people come in on July 4th should I cancel should I reach out like everyone sort of accepted whatever you do do not cancel your interview like okay I'll be there on July 4th and so I went in uh to to the office on July 4th and there was a very small handful of people there it was actually launching that day was launching Uber's second ever product type which was Uber SCV and I sort of had this I think was probably five hour Gauntlet interview on July 4th from from noon to 5 and missed my July 4th barbecue and it was it was quite the experience but I think maybe maybe set the stage for for some of the the early days uh chaos and very glad I did can some reason and was Travis involved in that interview or is it just Travis Travis was was involved in the interview she was one of the I think there were four or five people the two who were who are generally guiding my interview process and Travis and and one other person starting that day and part of the gauntlet interview was sort of a simulation of the job if you will um and so some of that was building no on on on the computer some of it was s writing potential emails to to to drivers and she had the driver come in and you did CH so I was in this room sort of by myself typing away on the first part which was building the model and uh I hear a knock on the door and um Travis comes in and you know we have a he just sits down and says you I am I'm Travis are but I'm Brian and uh yeah we we have a 45 minute chat or maybe it's been been about half hour 45 minutes and clearly not like producing the work that I'm supposed to of the interview right I'm supposed to be building this model I'm supposed to email it back to to the person who sent it to me clearly have done nothing chat chatting with the CEO and uh hear a knock on the door and the the door opens and person sees that I'm talking oh continue continue and uh it was very good also pretty intense conversation with with Travis that um definitely set the expectations of working and clearly worked out and Travis was happy was my I hope so imagine yes amazing Brian uh thank you so much for being here we went through everything that I was hoping to get through two final questions work can folks find you online and is there anything you want them to check out that you might be up to and how can listeners be useful to you super kind uh they can find me online on Twitter or LinkedIn um both just Brian tolken uh my name in terms of being useful if you have uh a home to sell feel free to go on to Open Door more more importantly if you have feedback on the product would would love to hear it otherwise uh any feed feedback on what people liked or would love to to learn more about from what we ched about would be be super great so I'd love to love to hear from you Brian thank you so much for being here money really appreciate it this is great bye everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple podcast Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny podcast.com see you in the next episode