[Music] welcome to the hunor for change podcast where we explore fresh perspectives with leading voices in health and science I'm your host Nas Gustafson and today I'm honored to welcome Professor Thomas CD a prestigious biologist and a Pioneer in the stud of cancer and metabolic therapist Professor CED earned his PhD from the University of Illinois orbana champagne in reaching his expertise during his p doctoral years at y University School of Medicine at Boston College he teaches biology genetics and biochemistry shaping the minds of countless students with his insights into how diseases like cancer epilepsy and neurod degenerative disorders can be managed and prevented through specialized particles like the keto diet he's the author of the cancer as a metabolic disease and a contributor to several leading scientific journals so let's get ready for a fascinating conversation with the most prominent cancer biologist there is welcome Professor CED well thank you Nicholas it's nice to be here today there is so much I want to know about this topic first of all what does Health mean to you well I think health is the absence of illness it's that simple right pretty much what's your story and how did your passion for medicine and science all start well I I came to it by many many different roads it's it's not um you know you you you get a degree in classical genetics and then you work in in Biochemistry and um you know one thing leads to another as you're as you begin to explore parts of Nature and um it only became clear to us maybe uh 25 or 30 years ago on this cancer metabolism but but before that it was pure purely basic science it wasn't really linking to any disease in the that people have although we were working on TX disease it's a lipid stores disease for many many years I'm still working on that but you know there's no straight path to any of this kind of stuff you just have to follow where the science leads you and what your own interests are why do people get cancer for many reasons I've written about this how cancer can be initiated um most of it has to do with uh te the advance of our diet lifestyle technology as the origin but how does that happen in one person versus another or in one tissue versus another and I broke that all down in resolving what we call the oncogenic Paradox uh that term enogen Paradox was first mentioned by Albert Zori who won a Nobel Prize a Hungarian for his work on vitamin C but he raised the question how is it possible that you could have so many things that have been associated with cancer and no one could figure out the common pathophysiological mechanism by which guy some guy smokes some guy gets exposed to chemical carcinogens some guy gets systemic inflammation somebody inherits some kind of a gene some people get exposed to viruses some people just get get older how is it possible that all these conditions can be linked to a disregulated growth of cells in a particular tissue which is cancer and all of it involves chronic disruption of energy through oxygen oxidative phosphorilation which is what OT warberg originally said and which we have absolutely confirmed as the origin of cancer so any of those provocative a agents can elicit uh a chronic disruption of energy through oxidative phosphorilation leading to disregulated cell growth and what we call cancer and it can happen any time uh in any place in any kind of an individual but I would certainly say that our diet lifestyle today in the western world is a contributor towards uh damaging oxidative phosphorilation in some tissue or cell group could you share what initially LED you to investigate cancer as a metabolic disease rather than a genetic one because in Europe we can read we can hear that cancer is a genetic disease and I know that in the US there is something similar you have well in according to the National Cancer Institute is that what it's called in the US we have something very similar here and in for example in Sweden it's called the national Board of Health and Welfare and um that's what you can read there and as you might know in in Europe there are 3,500 people per day that die in cancer I think the number in the US is 1,700 so something like that that's true that's correct so what what led you to to actually investigate cancer as a metabolic disease not a genetic one yeah well I think like most people uh when I started my career it was clear that for everyone that read books and textbooks cancer was considered a genetic disease I never questioned that it was a silent assumption you know I'm a I I have a degree in genetics and uh when it came to the section about sematic mutations and germline mutations and things like this they would discuss various forms of cancer that seem seem to be associated with various kinds of mutations and we would study that and transmit that information to students but it didn't occur to me that that that whole understanding is is incorrect uh until you actually do the kind of research that would seriously question the foundational principles of the of the theory and I started to do that but I didn't do it purposefully I did it because I was seeing things that were completely inconsistent with the the dogmatic theory of cancer as a genetic disease completely inconsistent because I started to don't forget I worked in epilepsy for many many years and we were doing penic metabolic therapy on little kids with seizures and we began to look at the physiological changes that happen to the human body under fasting and therapeutic conditions and everything glucose goes down ketones go up and this is an evolutionally conserved adaptation in our species uh during the Paleolithic period of human existence on the planet our ancestors were all always in in a state of of ketosis because they didn't have a lot of high carbo processed foods in the diet and they had a lot of exercise all of which put together a physiological condition that was a semi- starved State um and that's how how we evolved and we were studying how epileptic seizures could be managed by um these diets and we noticed that um when glucose was lower and ketones were elevated many children would uh have their seizures M and stop seizing well we had a parallel experim experiment uh research going on in the in the lab in brain cancer because we were interested in the the biochemistry of brain cancer in the form of of glycolipids do glycolipids play some sort of a role in brain cancer and um it became clear uh as the two two Fields were parallel but not overlapping uh what I was getting research grants for studying biochemistry of of brain cancer and I was getting re research grants to study uh metab olic therapy for epilepsy so we had two parallel programs that were independent of each other it would only became clear when we started to look at a drug that was supposedly blocking glycolipid biosynthesis and it did but it also shrunk tumors and we were very excited about that the company was that gave me this drug to study uh we were all very excited but then we learned that the mechanism of action of the drug was blocking sucres in the gut preventing the animal from obtaining energy from the food they were eating and we noticed that the blood went down and the ketones went up just like the epileptic uh managing seizures and then when I put the control group of mice in there because the animals ate the drug their body weight became smaller and their blood sugar went down and uh we said we have to put in a controlled body weight group with no drug just restrict the calories of food so their body weight would be the same as the guys eating the drug and lo and behold the tumor shrunk to the exact same degree whe whether as long as you cut the calories the it it wasn't the drug attacking the biochemistry it was the drug preventing the animal from getting energy from the food that it ate so then we started to realize that calorie restriction how did that block seizures how did that block brain tumor growth and it was Elevate the lower glucose Elevate the ketones so we noticed that a group from uh Case Western Reserve were were treating little kids with brain cancer with ketogenic diets because it was lowering glucose and elevating ketones I said wow that seems to be why would they would they do that and it turns out they link their findings to OT warberg I and I always heard of OT wber I didn't know what he did and um because OT warberg said cancer cells can't grow unless they have a significant amount of sugar glucose I said wow it seems very similar to the epilepsy thing what's going on with that and um and these little kids uh had high-grade gomas and she clearly showed that the shrinkage of the tumor was correlated with how low the blood sugar would go and how high the ketones went and I said it's the same thing we're looking at the epilepsy because we can manage just the same thing so um calorie restriction I did a lot of work on epilepsy published some of the seminal papers and how and how calorie restriction and ketogenic diets might stop seizures but we really don't know the mechanism so I started to shift over more towards the brain cancer because it looked like we had a clear mechanism by which the same therapy that we use in epilepsy could work even better in cancer then I started doing a deep dive on warberg who the hell is this guy this German uh from the 20th century and he is a fascinating character himself half Jew uh why Hitler kept him alive during the during the Holocaust and all this kind of stuff because Hitler feared cancer and um he knew OT warberg was the leader in the world at the time and if anybody was going to cure cancer it would be OT warberg so Hitler said he should not be touched so uh um so I and then I started looking into what warberg research was all about and he said cancer comes as the result of chronic disruption of oxidative phosphorilation that means the cancer cells don't use oxygen for uh disregulated growth they they use a fermentation mechanism which is energy without oxy and I said wow that that that's that's really interesting how come nobody knows this and they said well because cancer is a genetic disease and they knew nothing about Oto orber so um I said well I mean he seems to he seems to have some uh influence interesting things here so we we did um work on brain cancer and we were able to show un unambiguously that that the lower the sugar the slower the tumor went the higher the sugar the faster the tumor went and uh that tumor cells can't burn ketones because the oxidative phosphorilation system is defective so I immediately said well this is going to be the way we're going to manage cancer because the tumor cell can't burn ketones or fatty acids like normal cells can so we can shift the entire body over to nutritional ketosis and bring down glucose further and then we published all the mechanisms by which this happens anti-angiogenic pro- infl anti-inflammatory pro- aptic so we were finding killing cancer cells by all of the standard mechanisms that drugs would do it but without toxicity so this was a really an eye opener to us and I thought that wow this is like the greatest thing how come the cancer field does not know about this and and I said uh well uh everybody knows cancer is a genetic disease everything else doesn't make any sense so as a geneticist I started going in looking at the mutations and where they come from it turns out that the defective mitochondria produce reactive oxygen species which are carcinogenic and mutogenic so it became clear to me that all these mutations that people thought was causing cancer was not they were the effects they weren't the cause they were the effects yeah so I said wow the whole field is studying effects no wonder we have 1,700 people a day dying from cancer because they're not studying the right thing and um then of course you look at at the criticisms of OT warberg and they said warberg was wrong because cancer cells use oxygen just as effectively as normal cells so I said really so I started doing a deep dive on that turns out that the cancer cells take in oxygen but they don't use it for energy they use it for making reactive oxygen species which cause the mutations in the nucleus so you got you got to know what's going on here you have to be a good biologist and understanding Evolution to to know what I'm talking about and it became more and more clear to me that almost the entire cancer field had almost no clue about the disease they were studying they were not able to make evolutionary connections um so I started to look at uh evidence from nuclear mitochondrial transfer experiments done by the world's leading developmental biologists and they weren't even studying cancer they were just looking at does a cancer can a can a nucleus from a tumor cell direct normal development that was their uh question and I looked at frog experiments Mouse experiments human experim all these different kinds of experiments where the nucleus of the tumor cell was placed into a normal cytoplasm and it was turned cancer nucleus can direct normal development up until a per a stage and then development would abort uh on the other hand when the nucleus of the normal cell was put into a tumor cytoplasm what was found was either dead cells or or neoplastic tumor cells so I said my God this is clear evidence that Cancer Cannot Be A genetic disease it's something in the cyop plasm what is in the cytoplasm that might that might be responsible for disregulated cell growth the mitochondria did anyone ever say the mitochondria might be involved yeah OT warberg said it a long time ago so I started doing a deep dive on mitochondria structure and function and all these different cancer cells and you have to do electron microscopy work and I just went back in the literature and I said look at every major cancer that we know of in humans and mouse and rats and all kinds of animals they all have defective oxidative phosphorilation and they're all fermenting this is the simplest damn thing all you have to do is connect the dots yeah and now we're realizing that all all major cancers in in the clinic are known to grow much faster with the higher blood sugar the person has yeah and they all know that if you lower the blood sugar the cancers grow much much slower so this became very clear linked to and why because the mitochondria defective and not only that we know know that mitochondria control the cell cycle in other words the regulation of growth is controlled by the organel that makes the energy in the cell so when that when that organel becomes kaput or dysfun dysfunctional the cell falls back ancient Pathways of fermentation that were responsible for the life uh on the planet before oxygen came into the atmosphere 2.5 billion years ago so these cancer cells are doing nothing more than fermenting the way all organisms did before because they grow in the absence of oxygen AO warberg received his Nobel Prize for for work by looking by discovering cytochrome SE oxidase which is the respiratory enzyme and he showed that that cancer cells if you pour cyanide on a cancer cell that they live so cyanide will kill us real fast but it doesn't kill a cancer cell because they're not using oxygen they're fermenters so once you know they can't live so then we said what do they ferment uto warberg clearly said that they ferment glucose yeah and that was his big thing glucose glucose glucose but in my book I entertained the idea for the first time that cancer cells may also ferment an amino acid called glutamine everybody in the cancer field knows that glutamine is a prime fuel for cancer cells the big problem they all thought it was respired and I said you can't they said oh it's respir it's a respiratory fuel but the cancer cells can't respire anything so I said well that's not respiration it has to be fermentation so I started to look into this and then I got a hold of the top guy in the world on this Dr shopis from SEMO wise so I brought this atten to his attention that glutamine is fermented he looked at the data and he clearly said yes this is a fermentation mitochondrial fermentation metabolism so you have fermentation in the cytoplasm according to what warberg said and what we discovered is you have fermentation in the mitochondria mitochondrial substrate level phosphorilation is a mitochondrial fermentation metabolism that can work in the absence of oxygen this fooled everybody so they all thought glutamine was being respired because it's coming out of the mitochondria they were taken in oxygen I showed that the o oxygen is not being used for oxidative phosphorilation it's being a reactive oxygen species production and that the energy coming out of the mitochondria was coming through a fermentation metabolism it's unbelievable this clearly show AO warberg was correct clear a lot of the mess and now present the way cancer cells are getting their energy through a ferment novel fermentation mechanism so now we know what cancer is we know where it from and we know how to manage it the problem is the rest of the world never heard of this so you're stuck in this void so uh to shut off the supply of glucose that's easy right you can just be on a ketogenic diet but to shut off the uh the supply of glutamide that that that's harder right yeah uh yeah once you know what you need to do then the strategies become clear so that's why we developed the Press pulse therapeutic strategy where we pulse glutamine targeting uh glutamine is an essential am for many functions of the body if you're if you go in and I said glutamate glutamine sorry glutamine yes glutamine glutamine is metabolized to glutamate yeah glutamate is then transaminated to Alpha ketoglutarate which is part of the TCA kreb cycle yeah right and then Alpha ketoglutarate is metabolized to sual COA yeah now that sucal COA contains a phosphate group on histadine 2 226 I believe which is then transferred to ADP or GTP to make energy cancer cells dump out suic acid normal cells keep suic acid uh that's metabolized to fumerate and then malate and around so uh the difference between normal cells and cancer cells is they respire and they keep they keep uh suic succinate in the TCA cycle to be used for reducing equivalence to do energy through oxidative phosphorilation an cells dump out suconic acid into the media let me give you an example and this is how we draw information from different fields of Science and I always use this when people have a heart attack uh Cardiac Arrest uh two fuels immediately appear in the bloodstream and that's lactic acid and suck inic acid they immediately appear in the bloodstream because no more oxygen is coming into the system the heart stops beating so in order for the cells to survive they have to ferment what do they ferment they ferment glucose and glutamine okay so immediately you see the waste products of these inefficient fermentation Pathways arise up inside the bloodstream as soon as the person starts breathing again the lactic acid and the succinic acid go back down to Baseline levels because fermentation is shut off the difference between a temporary heart attack and a cancer cell the cancer cell is locked into the fermentation metabolism all the time so you always see lactic acid and succinic acid coming out of the tumor cells why why because the mitochondria are uh intrinsically inefficient in generating energy from oxidative phosphorilation in the heart attack the mitochondria were just inhibited because there was no oxygen as soon as the oxygen came back they started to respire again thereby not needing fermentation metabolism but when the cancer cell has a permanent damage to the mitochondria it's locked into a fermentation metabolism and there therefore can only grow only grow with the two fermentable fuels glucose and glutamine which now tells us exactly how we're going to manage the disease we just have to restrict the glucose and glutamine and you said it's very easy to do glucose which it is but it requires some knowledge of not damaging immune system gut and urite all the things that glutamine does and that's why we pulse the glutamine it's a strategy well it's going to eventually become the standard of care I mean because it's it's based on hard science it's based on a complete understanding of what's going on in the cancer cell and enough to know that you can manage all forms of cancer by simultaneously restricting glucose and glutamine while the body is transitioned to nutritional ketosis I just told you the solution to the cancer problem we can manage the cancer much more effectively without toxicity and uh overall survival and quality of life will be significantly improved once people know that this is how to do it it's a mitochondrial metabolic disorder driven by fermentation metabolism and the only two fermented fuels how do we know that because we did the experiments ourselves we we as we throw cancer cells into uh saline solution which is no food nothing and then we take a stopwatch and see how long it takes them to die okay and they die in 24 hours they're all dead so then you start adding fuel back and say what keeps them alive OHA boom boom you see GL glutamine wow they just jump up a little bit then you add the glucose and boom even in Saline Solution they will grow so uh they grow even better if you throw in little micronutrients from the serum and everything so you know exactly what these cells and we can't find another amino acid as powerful as glutamine we've interrogated these cells uh it's not like oh we can substitute a different amino acid they can but very poor and then they have ask well if you're going to drive a beast with inefficient energy you have to have Pathways that are going to allow that to come into the cell and you're going to have to have a logistic supply of these inefficient fuels in the micro environment and the most abundant amino acid in the body is glutamine and glucose is taken in from almost every meal that we eat so the fuels for driving the disregulated growth are abundant um and we know because if and yeah they can burn a little bit of asparagine but there's just a minuscule amount in the environment so it goes through that real quick so you got to have a sustained amount of logistical supply of fermentable fuels to keep this regulated growth of the cancer cell so we give radiation and chemo which free which makes the body make glucose um oh it's just incredible most of the stuff that we do contributes to the demise of the patients by by damaging their normal mitochondria and by doing all these other kinds of things that that uh are not targeting the essential uh the necessity the necessity of fermentation so every everything that I see in the cancer industry I can explain based the misunderstanding of what the nature of the disease is understanding and misunderstanding of why we get what we have Okay so this way you can not only prevent a cancer patient but you can also cure I don't like to use the Cure term because it's an arrogant term we have no clue if you have cancer now you're a young guy and we do metabolic therapy and you die at 97 years old from and you never cancer never came back then we could say that metabolic therapy cured you but I can't be sure you might be managed for 10 15 years and all of a sudden something comes back um they say see you didn't cure cancer well we don't know I mean nobody does anyway so I mean anything you give somebody they're not curing anything mean they might have people that are living longer and yes there are some people we call cancer survivors yeah there are many many cancer survivors throughout the world whose body tolerated massive poisoning and radiation and they but they pay a price and often times cancers come back in different organs and they die from uh prematurely from heart disease and liver failure kidney failure they die from all these other things because they were poisoned and irradiated by the inance of the system so uh uh you know it's called management we like to we like to use the term can we manage cancer and the answer is yes we can manage cancer so my my father actually died of a kind of cancer called Myoma kind of blood cancer and he had it for seven years um before he eventually died of it and and yeah of course you could see he was uh the the cancer treatments they were really hard on him on him he you know the typical you lose your hair your immune system gets uh weak and um that's horrible to to see for for someone that is near absolutely it's hard to see for every kind of these cancer whether it's a gleo blastoma liver cancer colon cancer bladder cancer breast cancer they they all have these horrible uh treatments and and we know Myoma is also I did we mitochondria damaged in Myoma all right okay so what does the Myoma need to survive glucose and glutamine why was your father not that they didn't take glucose and glutamine away he would have done much better you would not have suffered like that and that's another weird thing you say well I'm treated and my my hair is falling out why why your hair falls out you're trying to kill cancer cells aren't you why would you go bald what what does the air the cancer cells don't live inside the hair follicles yeah this tells us they have no clue understanding of of killing can we can kill cancer cells by taking away their glucose and glutamine and transitioning the normal body over to ketones that means you don't have to lose your hair you don't have to suffer all these horrible side effects because you know you're specifically targeting the tumor cells for their incapability of doing anything other than fermentation so uh the strategy that we will develop eventually that will become the standard of care will involve managing cancer without toxicity because we know how to kill them um and the science is solid So and I've done all the experiments and many others have done these experiments sometimes they just didn't know what they were looking at but they were getting the same kind of results yeah it makes it makes sense what you're telling me because um I think that my father was uh that he has had a diabetes and we didn't know uh but I mean this was 17 years ago and um I came to realize now after that he probably because he had a clear sugar addiction he he loved sugar everything with sugar he was just um he loved it so I think that he has a diabetes and this makes sense what you're telling me so what are the primary risk factors for to cancer well I think you just said diabetes yeah um uh elevated sugar creates systemic inflammation and inflammation will damage oxidative phosphorilation mitochondrian in some cells you know your your dad got Myoma but other people with uh type 2 diabetes get colon cancer uh sometimes they get breast canc it doesn't it can be very individual kinds of whatever whatever cell is damaged by this and sometimes it's a combination of damage uh you know obesity is now replacing smoking as a number uh uh major cause of cancer but that's often associated with type two diabetes so so you have diabetes obesity uh lack of exercise uh you have a whole variety exposure to chemical carcinog any any combination of these risk factors together uh can can damage oxidative phosphorilation in some population of cells and some tissue so uh but we all know they're all linked to a common pathophysiological mechanism which is dysfunctional oxos coupled to a to a compensatory fermentation of glucose and glutamine no matter what where they come no matter where they are they all have common uh got common phenotype and um but they're all genetically different so when you do genetic analysis you know the mutations that you see in Myoma may be different from colon cancer may be different from breast cancer and as a matter of fact if you look at any if you take a tumor out of someone's body a solid tumor uh or even blood cells blood cancers and you look at each cell and then you do an expansion of the genome in that cell and do a complete genomic sequence of all the different kinds of genetic alterations every there's no two cells in a tumor despite the hundreds of millions of cells in the tumor there's no two cells that have the same genetic mutations yet every cell in the tumor is fermenting so the what the what the cancer field because they're locked into the incorrect Theory they think it's a genetic disease and therefore they're going to try to Target genetic mutations and try to manage manage the disease that way and you hear them all talking about what kind of mutation this guy has or that guy has they they might have that for sure but but not every cell in their tumor has the same mutation now here's the situation every cell in that tumor is fermenting so what they failed to realize that I could do a much better job at killing all the tumor cells if I Target the common problem that all the cells have rather than some of the unique problems that only few of the cells have now as as what I just said to you does that seem complicated does let me ask you that does that no it doesn't seem complicated well how in the hell is all the major cancer centers in the world not know that so what is the answer the answer is I in fact I don't know it's perplex thing I I sometimes I I I sometimes think I'm I'm talking to plug sockets and things I I I have no idea what I what I think is is a is a Dogma it's an ideology I I think they have been so brainwashed indoctrinated to think this is a genetic disease they can't think of anything else and and actually Leo to tolto said the same thing the Russian uh author he said it's sometimes easier to explain a complicated thing to a simple person and a simple thing to a guy who's already made up his mind what he thinks he knows it about already and I think right the ideological Dogma is more so powerful on the brain you can't think outside your dogmatic View and if you were ra it's like a religion a Dogma you're indoctrinated brainwashed into a way of thinking and no matter what someone says you cannot you cannot uh transition from one dogmatic view to another it's a lockh hold on rational thinking and uh the the cancer industry has come to realize that cancer is a genetic disease and it's a lock hold on their brain and they can't think outside that and then of course you have the revenue generation system the people make billions of dollars on treating cancer that might be one of the explanations right the economic interests behind yeah you can't get a a man to recognize something when his salary depends on him not recognizing it so um I you put all that together and you have a complete resistance to moving the field forward for a variety of different reasons so what do you think has to happen for these health professionals to open their minds outside the the that this imposed Dogma I think when you start to see people uh who were given terminal diagnosis uh walking around living far longer with healthier quality of life eventually there's enough of these people are going to walk around and they're going to say to the doctor I want to be like that guy can can you treat me like that guy who's alive over there and yeah and you know so I I think it's the evidence that eventually comes from seeing people who were given terminal diagnoses who are not terminal or Alive far longer than their diagnosis you know they always say oh he's got nine months to live or he's got maybe a year left who are these people to say that you know but do you see this happening anytime soon I mean working with future the future generation of health professionals are things looking brighter I think so because the word is starting to get out and you know you can only deny the science for so long I mean I go back and look how long it took the Catholic church to accept the fact that the uh sun was the center of the solar system you know back in those days they burn Bruno Gano at the stake in Rome for cry Al burned his ass up for when he challenged the dogma and then the Galileo was house arrested so it took uh the scient they didn't even want to look in the microscope uh in the telescope to prove that Galileo was supporting Kernan Theory and the clerics didn't even want to look in the in them in the telescope to prove what they were saying so it took centuries for the C for the church to accept this uh this fact and now we know of course the sun is the center of the solar system but there was a time when that was not accepted because you were challenging the power to be and the power to be was that the humans uh we were the center and the church was the center of our existence and when that when you found out that was not the case uh you were challenging power and when you challenge power you can get a backlash and in those days that they burn you up or house arrest you so today they ignore you they just ignore it but I mean look what happened with the fearing saturated fat uh that was U something that people thought for 60 70 years but now it's it's been it's it's a myth that has been debunked but uh that was recently which one was that I mean animal fats butter and L and you know we evolved on animal fats I mean you're you're killing an elephant you don't think there's any fat on his body I mean uh we live to kill animals but I mean it took us 60 70 years to to debunk that M yeah well I think um you know for the nutrition guys uh they're they're all messed up anyway you know when you have up upside down food pyramids and all this kind of stuff um but you know we're I try to select what I do I mean right now we've got people dying 1700 people A Day in the United States like you said 3,000 in Europe and because of incorrect Theory so the they're dying as the result of an incorrect theory of the nature of the disease so if if your job is to uh bring the attention that the theory of cancer it's a it's called a mitochondrial metabolic disorder it's not a genetic disorder so you have two competing theories the mutation Theory which says that cancer is caused by somatic mutations that lead to disregulated cell growth or the mitochondrial metabolic Theory saying that the disregulated cell growth is the result of a transition from oxos to fermentation and the mutations which are there are secondary Downstream effects not the cause so this is the this is the the whole thing right once they the science becomes clear you operate under a theory and the theory if the theory is correct the outcomes will be better because you understand the situation better right now the field persists with toxic chemicals and radiation and immunotherapies which are all based on the sematic mutation Theory so they're not going to be optimal in managing cancer for the majority of people on the planet you realize it's a metabolic disorder you will get management and greater much greater uh capability so your question is how do we get the field to know that why don't you read the damn literature and understand it for yourself because they don't do that they rely on some other guy telling them what to think so uh it's hard for people to think we have mostly followers in this world there's only a few thinkers and that can be very good or very bad for certain things we were talking about the nutrition and you mentioned the the food pyramid being turned upside down right does meat cause cancer no of course not you know what the hell man how do meat going to damage mitochondria we have all eat meat for Christ's sake you know and we look at the uh Paleolithic uh men we look at Aboriginal tribes that follow their standard diet Lifestyles cancer is unheard of right so um I mean we evolved to eat meat if we didn't eat meat we would you and I would never have this conversation we would have been extinct right of course eat meat we didn't involve to eat grass you know or vegetables I mean we would have been dead extinct extinct and and yes sweet things as a species we love sweet things because sweet was so rare in Paleolithic times where you going to get something sweet you think there's a doughnut shop on every on every corner you know um no you know where are we going to get Cakes and Pastries and all this kind of stuff we didn't have it so we would have honey and and uh we'd have to learn how to make the bees uh indolent while we could get the honey so I always wanted to know who is the first guy to smoke smoke bees so they wouldn't sting you while you could collect the honey because the dumbass bear has to get his face all stung because he's not smart enough to know how to make the bees indolent what about what about obesity do you do would you say that obesity is a disease no of course not I mean who there's a you know we have so many jackasses people who have no functional brain cells I me stupid stuff like that you know we evolved to store energy if we didn't store energy we would have not existed on the planet all of a sudden we're put into an environment where all of the things we've always craved are now at our at our fingertips and all of a sudden we become obese as a matter of fact those people who don't understand Evolution they don't understand biological evolution obesity is evolution in action this is what happens when we evolved over hundreds of thousands of years in the absence of high carbohydrate foods and then all of a sudden you put that same organism in an environment with an abundance of high carbohydrate Foods our natural ability to store energy is is there and you get very very fat because the fattest people are the great are the descendants of those that survived the hardest times hundreds of thousands of years ago so obesity is evolution in action and that's what it is we evolve to store energy that was the way we could survive human beings are remarkably able to go for long periods of time without food but because we have this incredible capability because we moved we moved out of our original uh original space in Africa we came we survived ice ages and we surv movement all over the planet because we can go we move and we store energy and now all of a sudden we're in environments where we no longer move we're sedentary and we're eating highly processed carbohydrate foods and it's we get fat when I hear what you say it's you mean that we have a significant amount of control when it comes to whether we develop cancer in our lifetimes is that is that right absolutely but the problem is that that knowledge is not generally known you can't believe how many people never do not know that obesity is linked to cancer they don't have any um oh I didn't know that I didn't know well you don't read anything you know you gota I I I in my University I spent a lot of time scientific literacy it could save your life most people have no they're they it's AB they have no scientific literacy they don't how to interpret data they don't look at things they have no clue how their body works but you're absolutely 100% right uh most of cancers can be prevented the problem is when you tell people how do I prevent cancer well you got to really restrict your ability to eat highly processed carbohydrates and you have to exercise a lot more just like our paleo lithic ancestors that didn't have cancer well I'm not sure I want to do that well then that's your choice now now the problem of course is that smoking smoking was very common everywhere at least in the United States maybe in Europe I don't know what they Europe as well you know and everybody knew smoking cigarettes would put you at risk for cancer and um uh all kinds of other diseases you know lung diseases and all kinds of stuff but people contined to smoke even though they knew the risk factor but it only became uh uh changed when when your smoking habit puts someone else at risk for help uh so secondhand smoke you're you're bothering me you're hurting my child with you're smoking and then the society said oh we can't we can't smoke inside anymore you have to go outside and it became a societal peer pressure kind of restriction because your habit was putting my health at risk the Obesity problem is is not doing that directly that fat guy sitting on the bench is not affecting my personal health right another problem sorry is is that children they have sugar since they are one or two years old and children at that age Never Smoke right and and now now we're getting children that are obese yeah and uh and what's happening is that when I was a kid eating sugar cereals and but we were we were outside running and jumping and climbing all the time yeah yeah we weren't sitting in front of computers and cell phones we didn't have any of that stuff so now you eat all the sugar cereals and you go to the next room and you you work on your cell phone all day long or or chat or whatever and that's lack of exercise lack of exercise lack of sun exposure lack of fresh air lack of grounding being uh separated from nature completely 100% absolutely and you put all that together and you create an environment that's going to contribute to a broad range of chronic diseases yeah that Society now now must spend more and more money on expensive therapies that are draining The Wealth of Nations into into treating a preventable condition that's basically what it is so you know um and makes jobs and makes M money for a lot of Industries a lot of people get rich doing this stuff so maybe it's good for the economy I don't know you know um I mean if you say to a cancer patient you have a very valuable function your sickness is is generating a large Revenue generating industry keeping Maj major uh Western societies uh functional so be thankful that you have this contributed you can't say that to a person with cancer no it's insensitive but that's the truth um and their sicknesses is driving huge Industries yeah uh and I'm coming along saying maybe maybe we can live longer oh no can't do that we don't want that so talking about living longer um Professor CED how I mean could you explain the relationship between aging and cancer risk do you believe that cancer is inevitable if we just live long enough no I don't believe it's inevitable I mean we have people that are centurions that are dying from basically from old age yeah uh would never have cancer is it if you continue uh diet Lifestyles that put you at risk then for sure cancer becomes more common in older folks what I'm seeing now though which is really uh shocking is the younger and younger people getting cancer it's unbelievable I mean in 20s and 30s with colon cancer and breast cancer and this kind of thing this this is like something's something's going on here yeah in society something some some something is going on is this a change that you've seen recently yes absolutely I would say within the last 10 years we're seeing much really yeah much more and it's all linked to our diet lifestyle issues but as far as longevity don't forget there's the mitochondrial Theory of Aging it's called the second entropy Second Law thermodynamics uh which is disorder So eventually our bodies give out uh and we and we die uh because uh disorder uh we reach equilibrium where the Energy Efficiency in our body is no longer capable of preventing us from ing equilibrium and that's usually a generalized failure in mitochondrial uh uh energy I always like to look at Queen Elizabeth from England who passed away not long ago I mean one day I always say she's like healthy and shaking the hand of the the new British prime minister that only lasted a week or so I can't remember how long it was but then two days later the poor woman's dead and and and I'm saying and she and she died of old age and this is the way people are supposed to die you're supposed to be healthy right up until until your body realizes that the second law of Thermodynamics has overtaken uh your ability to remain away from equilibrium and that's the natural way of of things cancer is acceler accelerated entropy so essentially your body is aging faster through a variety of pressures on the thermodynamic SEC other words you're accelerated the second law of Thermodynamics so uh and and to be exposed to radiation and chemicals damages mitochondria and healthy tissue there by enhancing uh the second law of Thermodynamics entropy putting you at risk for dying earlier than someone who was not exposed to these mitochondrial damaging agents so you can put it all together if you understand evolutionary biology and and biochemistry you can kind of make sense out of what what's happening in most folks so you already mentioned um how we can prevent cancer could you go a little into how we can use f fting as targeting I mean targeting cancer cells is that is that a way you it's very difficult to get cancer in healthy mitochondria so if the mitochondria is respiring yeah that cell is not fermenting because respiration is efficient and what we have found through bioenergetic studies with my late colleague Richard vich from the NIH um when you burn ketones you produce less reactive oxygen species you maximize the Energy Efficiency of mitochondria how do you elevate ketone well you're in nutritional ketosis will keep your mitochondria super healthy uh thereby preventing cancer from developing and many other chronic diseases uh for that matter and that's the way uh we evolved as a species the nutritional ketosis now of course our our ancestors during the Paleolithic period would die from infections and they would die from broken bones and they would die from things that we now can correct with modern medicine medicine but at the same time we put we can correct some things and then we put ourselves at risk at risk for other things so mitochondria health is ultimately responsible for how long you can live on the planet uh uh in a in a in a healthy or UND diseased uh state so um yeah so cancer prevention but as I said doesn't seem like most people are interested in prevention because we have an obesity epidemic and then of course if you have cancer then the way to Target that is remove the fermentable fuels while allowing the rest of the cells of the body to be healthy by burning ketones so you protect the normal cells while simultaneously targeting the tumor cells so we have we published this in the Press pulse I published a big paper on this this is the framework by which we're going to manage all cancers that will be eventually the standard of care and now we're working out dosage timing and scheduling of the various drugs and procedures that will all work together in a unified hold enhancing the health of the normal cells while restricting the viability of the tumor cells it's all based on evolutionary biology and biochemistry uh uh that was not all connected together like we like we've done what about the plastic pollution does microplastics impact our health when it comes to cancer yeah because what happens is the microplastics are are collected in cells uh this is the way asbestos was another kind of a non-degradable kind of molecule asbestos is considered a carcinogen uh because it creates systemic infl in cells that would take up the asbest particles thereby creating uh oxidative stress on mitochondria leading to uh to reduced oxos in a compens with a compensatory fermentation it's possible that the accumulation of Plastics in various cells uh will have the same kind of an effect as does aestus maybe not as acutely for sure but you put that in an environment where blood sugars are high and exercise is low and you put higher risk yeah yeah we can explain most of the most of these things because we thought about them we think we the questions you ask me we talk about all the time and we think about it and we look at the scientific literature to see if there's any evidence to support these the to get more clear answers to these things and the answer is yes when it comes to I mean different kinds of cancer we mentioned Myoma it could be skin cancer lung cancer are there different cures or you didn't want to use the name cure you said management right or how to deal with the cancer is that different when it comes to each kind of cancer yeah well this is the the big thing everybody thinks all these cancers are different from each other they're not how do I know that because I went through the scientific literature over years and looked at all the different kinds of cancers and they all have the same kind of problem lung cancer colon cancer bladder cancer they have damage oxidative phosphorilation and the other thing that's very interesting that we just we have a paper under review now uh all these canc um regardless of what kind they are they have these lipid droplets in the cytoplasm you're going to love this um if you look at them under the microscope you see all these vacul in the cancer cells Myoma bladder breast doesn't make any difference they got all these vules so the field thinks that the cancer cell needs so much energy they're going to they're using lipids so fast that they need to store them for energy just the in fact we have shown it's just the opposite they store the fatty acids because the mitochondria defective and they can't burn them so so we see lipid droplets and the cytoplasm of all major cancers and we see mitochondrial abnormalities in all major cancers they're the same damn disease it just happens in different cells this is a hard pill to swallow for the entire cancer industry where they're saying oh we have the therapy for your cancer or we have a different therapy this is absurd these people have no clue they I should say these people should understand the real the bi how is it possible that the bi that they that they don't know the biology of the disease they're working with is it possible that we have people treating other human beings uh on this planet uh and and the person treating the the patient and the treater neither of them have any knowledge about the bi biology was being treated the blind leading the blind in this kind of situation it's an embarrassment to our species I can't believe we allowed ourselves as a as a rational thinking species to become so clueless when it comes to any of the stuff that I'm speaking about is there anything that you would like to add something that you think that I missed that our listeners need to know yeah I think I think that the field will change dramatically once people realize that cancer is a mitochondrial metabolic disorder and not a genetic disorder and and you you want to see how fast you're going to get slapped down go to all your top cancer clinics and you tell them that and they'll throw you out saying you're some sort of a nut um some sort of a psychic Psychopathic guy this guy's running and and you see so you listen to what I say it makes perfect sense I have all the scientific evidence to support it's in the scientific literature and then when you go to the Oncology Clinic they never heard of anything I me let people let your listeners go and try it and see what they think let them go and see they'll say glucose is no no not a problem glucose is good for cancer get your glucose as high as you can I mean it's like nuts so you living in two two different worlds here yeah um and that's the evidence you want to know just go and know that but I tell you we can't make any major progress in managing cancer until people realize and the field comes to realize it's a mitochondrial metabolic disorder and it's not a genetic disorder and once we make that we'll drop the death rate significant let's hope that this changes then soon uh are there any exciting new projects that you're working on well I think we're working on diet drug combos uh where we can some of these Cancer drugs that have been thrown in the in the can for a lack of eacy we're pulling back out of the can and we're showing that they're extremely powerful when used under the right dietary conditions so we're going to open up a whole new field of research by reexamining many drugs that were thought to be ineffective or too toxic uh and show that Under The Right Use under the right dietary condition in certain change dosages some of these drugs that were so so-call promising uh uh are actually very very therapeutic it's just that you need to know how to use them in the right conditions so you know we've thrown so many different drugs into the can because they were causing too much toxicity and killing people uh we're finding we're resurrecting some of these drugs and showing oh my God they're extremely powerful when you have a patient in nutritional ketosis why why are we throwing them all away so we're going to re re reinvigorate the drug industry when they realize that their drugs can have new power when placed in a patient under the right dietary a metabolic condition Professor cord where can people find you all of the major papers that we have published are on the web Open Access so anybody who would like to because I can't do a thorough deep discussion on the biochemistry in a short period of time so you have to see the evidence for yourselves uh breast cancer brain answer we've done all these different kinds of things and um yeah Open Access you can anybody with a computer can go out to Google and pull up our our scientific papers and they can read them for themselves and then if they they think we're right they can make donations to my research at Boston College right on the my my faculty web page or they can support the foundation don't forget all of our research is coming from private foundations and philanthropy really so philanthropy there are guys I keep telling there are rich people who who who want to be a part of this transitional change and um they're willing to support our research because we're moving forward faster than any of the other avenues of research uh even though most of the people ignore what we're saying but uh there we be sh to be correct because we have the science behind us is there a message that you would like to send to the young Generations that will be the future of science and health advancements that's a good point because they have not yet been indoctrinated and uh they can have an open mind and they can test what I'm saying themselves and also in animals dogs uh our evidence is really strong when you see these dogs that are all dying from cancer and they and you're reversing their cancer or destroying the tumors by transitioning the diets of the dogs I published the big paper on that they can they can look yeah metabolic therapy for Mass cell cancer in the dog so um the dogs respond just as well as the humans humans respond the best mice are not the I use mice to get the work but the mices don't respond near as well as dogs are humans so uh just something for people to recognize but I but I think yeah so I think you you've asked a lot of very very good questions and I think that um my answers could be uh the way I deliver my my answers uh but but that people can get the the Deep science if you go right to the papers and see this we will add some links to the when we post this uh this discussion this podcast if they have scientific literacy they willing to open their minds they'll see the evidence for what I'm saying Professor c s thank you so much this has been really fascinating it's been very interesting and I appreciate very much that you took your time to share your wisdom with us thank you yeah thank you very much too nice speaking with you thank you so much for listening to the Hunger for change podcast I hope you enjoyed the episode I also wanted to take a moment to talk about naturally my brand of healthy food products and naturally we are in a mission to change the world through what we eat this this is why we worked so hard to make products that are delicious and also good for you they're all gluten-free have no refined sugars no sweeteners and no additives at the moment natural is only available in Europe however we're working to expand to other continents so stay tuned if you're in Spain you can head over to our website naturally.com and it will take you to our online store and if you're in Italy Portugal Germany Poland France the Netherlands or in Sweden you can find them on Amazon I will leave you all these links in the description anyway so that you can find them thank you so much for listening and stay tuned for the next episode [Music]