The jogan Experience like Einstein tells us and this is uh let's do bring in the the Multiverse for this too right Einstein told us that space is like stretchable right so it expands um so we have the moment of the big bang and the universe or existence as a whole we might say space and time um evolves according to the law of inflation so we keep getting a bigger and bigger area of space and some visitors think that this inflation happens eternally that it isn't reasonable to say that it just stopped as soon as our universe was created or one or two later so what you have is this popular view in physics where you keep getting more and more of these universes and end up with a popular Multiverse view where every single possible physical reality is realized so there's worlds according to this view where we're having this conversation in Spanish or God forbid French right or was a very nearby possible world where we're having this ation in Italian German or Japanese right exactly the same words exactly the same paes infinitely there are worlds though and I think the real question we want to ask there are a bunch of these Multiverse views we spoke at the start about the purpose of philosophy Mary Midgley clarifying these Concepts this is an idea my friend Ellie Robson convinced me of recently that it's a really important job in philosophy we haven't done a good job in physics and philosophy of defining the Multiverse we keep using the word but you've had Shan Carol on the show he's fantastic and you I've spoken to him about the um his many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics yeah he got views in philosophy that give you every single metaphysical possibility the easiest one to illustrate it's just this inflation model that I've just given but what we really want to know is why this like matters like does this change the value of the world because there are universes where you know little girls are born they're torture for their whole lives they're executed and it repeats right there are universes where Matt Dame 's career didn't get worse but it got better right so there are good universes too but on the whole that means you've got an uncountable number an uncountable number of bad universes and an uncountable number of good universes so I think if the Multiverse theory is actually true as agnostics or atheists we should be really [ __ ] worried like this is a horrible State of Affairs if there are all of these worlds if you actually believe that they exist you shouldn't be singing and buzzing with the bees and jumping with the shrimp and and being all excited about existence like we should uh we should be really concerned but we're really concerned about things that we're not even sure exist that are horrific yeah well you should be you know what I'm saying like that's existential inks to the power of a thousand there's a couple of problems there right well there's there's three big problems that come out of it the main one which we've just linked to is like if you're trying to weigh up the overall value of existence is the world I.E the Multiverse a good thing on the whole or a bad thing and I think if you say that there is let's just say it's infinite even though it might not be if you say there's infinite suffering and infinite goodness that doesn't seem like you can be optimistic you'd have to go on the whole the existence is like neutral mixed or maybe it's bad maybe you don't want a city where everyone's getting tortured next door to a city where everyone's living a blissful life but in our own experience on Earth horrific things and beautiful things are happening at simultaneously and generally speaking more beautiful things than horrific but we count we concentrate on the negatives yeah you know to sit around and Ponder the Multiverse being an infinite number of evil civilizations destroying themselves and torturing themselves okay let's how is that any different than thinking about demons how how is it any you know how is it any different than thinking about you know the the the Puppet Masters of the of the universe controlling all of our minds yeah it's like it's it's just mental masturbation like there's there's no way you're going to know whether or not there's a Multiverse of people suffering so to not be happy in this beautiful existence because perhaps there's a Multiverse in which infinite suffering is occurring seems to me to be a giant waste of an amazing trip like the trip that we're on right now is Earth 2025 Western Civilization pretty [ __ ] cool pretty cool and I think your job is if you're so fortunate that you're in this position to enjoy this very bizarre place in history where it's the strangest time perhaps ever that human beings have been alive and we're going through it you you could sit around all day and think oh but in other multiverses people are just getting eaten by other people maybe well it's it's sort of mental masturbation in the sense that like if you it's it just means that you can't when you contemplate all of existence think that it's an overall good thing so in that sense know we don't know what it is really don't know for the Multiverse theorist the there's so there's there's probably an infinite number of multi if if the Multiverse exists and if there's not a limited number of universes but it's an infinite number of universes it's probably an infinite number of uses that universes that are also [ __ ] amazing yeah it's probably they're all probably all competing just like all life is on this planet and what if the universe is constantly in a state of evolution itself why would we limit that to physical things that we we can currently observe if we know that there's Stellar nurseries we know that you know how a planets get born and stars and we we're very aware there's this process going on why would we assume this process is completed and perfected maybe this process is also moving in a in a better Direction constantly just like human life is just like human civilization is maybe that's something that exists everywhere in the universe and that the universe itself is advancing to a more powerful state or a better State well this is good so let's say entertain the Multiverse View and let's let's just let's let's pretend it's it's true right and so you've got infinite pleasure happiness and infinite suffering and pain so I think once you do you know you minus one from the other you've got a neutral set of existence like let's just let's say this sure so on balance it's about the same so if you're a a pantheist and you believe in the guard of uh the Multiverse if you Embrace Multiverse theism then you can't believe that God is good in the same way there's also a problem which is you you mentioned something like the process right but there are worlds in which this process has already been realized it doesn't really matter if our world reaches that or not in the grand scheme of calculating the amount of good and bad in the world you might think that explain that again say that again well you might think that like some people say uh stuff like this right they go I want to like stop eating meat or stop taking long haul flights but really when it comes down to it it doesn't really matter whether I buy that chicken or take that flight it's not going to impact the overall good and bad that's in the world it's a drop in a huge ocean that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of it if the Multiverse theory is true something like that hits a little bit harder if your goal is to make existence as a whole greater or better then it's nothing compared to the infinite suffering and pain that's already out there you can't change the overall value of existence I still think and I'm with you on this I'm I'm I'm sort of following the the line of argument to the point where it's fleshed out ful but you know now we've said that I still think there's a point in being moral in developing your own character sorting out your own house or Community or country or continent and and the world it seems like that's what our job is yeah it seems like where get what you keep referring to as me that's where we get meaning yeah I think that's fine there's there's other problems though that seem to fall out of this as well right which is like we have uh a concept of what it is to be a person back to our individual subjective conscious Minds you know when we try and think about what it is for me to be me today as the same person born like 31 years ago and the same person in the halfway point between that again to go back to Zen know like how's the how am I the same person throughout time I think the best answer to this is something like I have the same capacity for conscious experience if it was stream of Consciousness that would mean every time you drift off during me talking now then you would die and you'd be born again when your stream of Consciousness reemerges or if it was yeah like if you if you say Joe Rogan is that stream of Consciousness that sequence of experiences that he's undergoing now right and that stops because you drift off that would mean your stream of Consciousness has ended think of it like sleep when you go into like um en Ren sleep and you don't have any conscious experiences let's say you would die according to that view or the reviews and philosophy which say you are your psychological continuity Joe Rogan is the person that believes I know that uh that Marshall is golden retriever is fantastic and that I know like that Consciousness is the fundamental nature of stuff but then if I were to strip those beliefs away from you the psychological cons new you would say Joe Rogan doesn't exist anymore cuz I don't exist anymore yeah I get you gives you your conscious drifting off thing doesn't make sense to me because drifting off is just a failure to connect yeah but you're still conscious it's not like I'm dead like everything goes black and I I don't know anything I'm thinking about other things my stream of Consciousness just sto paying attention to you when I if I dripped off I never drift off entirely I do go to sleep you having yeah but when you sleep you have it right yeah but when you sleep you dream like what is going on there we don't even understand that you don't think there's ever a moment when you don't have an experience well you don't have a conscious experience because you're not conscious oh that's good that that will do right but what is going on like why do we have such vivid dreams like what is going on with with Consciousness in in regards to REM sleep we don't totally understand that we don't really know what that is well it's a bit of a even then it might seem like a a bit of a problem right take out like copy and paste teleportation to really put it out there you know I copy all of the the parts of you I destroy them and recreate them elsewhere right like Star Trek yeah Star Trek's I don't know it's different it's different on Star Trek I don't it's not copying this sounds so fuing nerdy yeah I'm really embarrassed it's not copying past but it's like they they take you and they beam you to another planet you don't exist here anymore you exist over there but some nerd told me that when they being beam you like Star Trek yeah I shouldn't call you it's okay I was a so when you're getting beamed around in Star Trek it's not copy and paste um teleport cut and paste no it's not cut oh it's cut it's cut and paste here okay so it would be cut and paste I copy you I recreate you be copy and paste if I made another Joe Rogan and then we've got the problem that sort of Paul Rudd has in that Netflix show which is great uh living with yourself have you seen that oh no I haven't is he a clone of himself yeah he that you can't give that power to dictators like if you can like you know when I was talking to CW who talking about downloading Consciousness into computers I'm like what's to stop someone from doing that a thousand times what's to stop someone from making an army of Donald Trumps yeah like how you can't you can't stop if you could do it once you can keep doing it especially as technology advances oh it's it's a gold the Paul red one he they recreate him but as a better version of himself so all of his friends want to hang out with the other one his wife wants to be with them yeah oh no he just kill himself he's already here I wonder if he shot himself in the head he would just be that other guy so in in Star Trek what happens is you carry on having experiences they beam you someone told me there's an episode where you see what it's like to be teleported and it's just like this world of things and lights around you so it's not like the lights go out even for a split second right but on the copy and cut and paste version it would be that second well it is an interesting question CU if Consciousness is not local and you download someone like what you know if you do move if you do take someone out of this physical existence and put them somewhere but then they don't have a soul this bizarre vessel that can no longer communicate and then then we'll realize like oh we [ __ ] up we got to go find out where that guy's Consciousness got dropped off along the journey I think it probably does get dropped off it probably does it needs the same capacity there to begin with you you're probably an antenna for Consciousness an antenna for it yeah you're probably you're you're probably a physical thing with a lot of biological requirements that's connected to some sort of Consciousness that sees itself as an individual but is completely connected to all the life forms around it what makes you cuz I've I've been unpacking like philosophical arguments or reasons for holding these views right what's your motivation for like I'm not sure if this is your view but even like entertaining it right it might seem like a they call them like Just So Stories right in philosophy right you can tell a tale about what it might be but why take that tale you're telling seriously um first of all not completely connected to this but I think it's possible that what Consciousness is is almost like a giant motherboard and we are all connected to that motherboard as individuals but that we share this one thing together and I think we really become aware of that when there's when the community comes together when there's a tragedy when there's an event something happens we all mind meld together and I think the individual the the biological entity that is you and that is me has all of these requirements that it has to meet in order to stay alive and to move forward and to progress in their civilization and culture and that this is a different thing than the entire Consciousness that we share but we share it with each other so much so that we can't be alone I mean people that go are alone for too long go crazy yeah the worst they can do to in prison has put you in solitary confinement yeah I can think of uh much worse I it's we're social animals right so we do we do look for that but that's still something you need something stronger there right so you go we want to connect with people we want to form these communities and bonds in the face of tragedy we come together and we support each other and we we empathize with each other and we love and support each other but like on a deep philosophical level I'm still seeing the world through my eyes and not your eyes right so why think that gives us a reason to think that there is this unifying experience or mind that occupies all of space and time right