orlando thank you very much for joining us my pleasure now ross in your mind what is high performance what is high performance um high performance is performing at the very le very best level of yourself your abilities um and i reckon it's as simple as that the best of your own abilities because high performance is different for everyone [Music] of course high performance within formula one is a little bit more complicated but it's still um the edge of technology you know always pushing the boundaries always trying to find improvements so um maybe more in that direction high performance is trying to push the boundaries always trying to find better of yourself so that leads us on to to asking how you know what your best is we get a lot of people that listen to these podcasts and they get in touch and they say how do i know i'm working to the top of my abilities or to the the very best that i can yeah have you got ways of judging whether you are giving all you can or you should uh i do but uh isn't necessarily myself like i think the best thing for me is the people i have around me um my manager my trainer my dad the people i'm with pretty much in everyday life you know i've been with like my manager and trainer for the last 11 12 years almost 10 years so they almost know me better than i know myself in some aspects and as yourself it's easy to get like caught up in a loop you know and kind of get complacent with some things so they're always there to give me a little kick when i need it and um keep me grounded all these kind of things but uh yeah for me they're like the most important thing but as you get older i think you realize more and more what i've realized more and more for myself um what works for me what doesn't you know what kind of keeps me motivated what keeps me wanting to work hard um because it's easy to just kind of you know miss a training session miss this miss that and um you kind of realize the consequences it has quite quickly so uh yeah the people around me are the most important thing for me so can i take you back you said that that as you get older you come to realize that can i take you back the other way when you were younger and just ask a little bit about your background yeah i mean on the podcast series we interviewed people from a wide range of backgrounds but your dad was a successful businessman you grew up surrounded by privilege and wealth you went to milfield school for example what benefits did you think that growing up in that kind of environment taught you it's tricky because there's there's obviously so many nice things which obviously come with that and i'm you know lucky and thankful to be in the position that i've been in with my dad doing so well and so on and that's led on to me having and being given many good opportunities you know to always be with a good team to have a manager and a trainer since i was 12 13 years old but i think um the one thing is that my mum and dad have done very well i would say is is keep me grounded and kind of realize um or live the life let's say as normally as possible not get carried away in any way i'm definitely you know i can say i'm privileged but not in the way that i get whatever i want and i get nice cars from my dad and all of this stuff you know there's many things which my dad has given to me and um i say invested in me but it's the investment not a not a given and um then i need to pay back that investment and reward him and you know use what he's given me to show it's all been useful and not a not a waste of time you know so um i think i'm just apparently my parents have been very good at keeping me in that that state did it apply a bit of a pressure to you because you know you weren't able to say well i didn't have a great cart i didn't have a manager i didn't get everything you know you had everything yes that you needed yeah therefore there was only one determining factor right me which issue maybe that's the perfect bringing for formula one but i wonder how that sat with you when you're 12 13 years old um i mean i i mean i have left with like lived with the the comments you get from other people um i guess already at a young age maybe you just don't see it and realize it as much how much people talk and social media then takes over that side of it but uh um you judged even then do you think going to the races uh of course yeah because we were like we used to have a motor home and um we used to already be with the good teams and stuff like that so since you you pretty much start already you have the judgment of this guy's got all the best stuff and they don't and stuff like that but um there are many people that also have other things which are just as good and so on and there are many circumstances when it doesn't come down to do you have a better engine do you have a better chassis you have a better people you work with you know a lot of it does come down to you in the end so yeah so one of our previous guests came from a similar background the boxing promoter eddie hearn and he spoke about how the shadow that his father had cast as a successful businessman had sort of fueled him to want to try and be better than him yeah did you ever feel that your dad's success has cast the shadow that drives you today i mean i wouldn't say like i want to be better than my dad because if it's really like a very i guess a very different profession live a different life but um many things which want to make me um not get the comments of i'm in the position of where i am because of him right um and uh i think like between um my dad and i like we never wanted i never wanted him to pay for me to come into formula one that was like one goal you know he could support me until formula one um or let's say to a former two to get to that point um give me those opportunities and so on but um i like personally as a feeling i wouldn't want to come into formula one having to pay for it and be although it's kind of just a bit of a mentality thing not have the mentality of i'm i'm not here because i don't deserve it i'm here because i've paid for it and i never really wanted that at all and um i feel much prouder to say that i'm here because mclaren brought me on and i was mclaren junior driver they brought me on i got better and then i was the the official driver so like it makes me much happier saying that than than the opposite one um but uh yeah like i have to know to a certain extent i'm lucky for the opportunities that i got and um the fact he could just support me into a formula two was already a lot more than what people get so uh i also know that on the the flip side i think sometimes we're guilty right in in this world of taking the values of someone who's had a struggle as being more valuable than someone who has had a privilege and i think we have to be so careful with that because you could have had all the great facilities and the managers and all the guidance and all the help in the world right without hard work and dedication and determination and sacrifice from you there's no way we're sitting here having this conversation is there uh definitely not definitely not um i mean because like when i started i wasn't um let's see i was i had a bit of a natural talent for it but i wasn't amazing it wasn't like i started and won everything um and um was that hard um no because i think for the first what three four five years of my life i've done karting i'm doing it because i'm young and it's just a hobby you know it's because that's what i love at that point in my life i didn't think it was for me anyway like i'm at a point where i think and this is what i want to do with my career when i'm eight years old it was just a lot more i love doing this i just want to do this for now more when i was like 13 was my girl's formal one how can i start to put a plan in place um but uh no i wouldn't say it was hard i think i learned a lot and of course then i had good people around me to tell me how to do better and i had to put in the effort to become a better driver it wasn't like it just came completely naturally to me um definitely certain elements were natural and i think if you want to be one of the best you've got to have some knack for where you can just jump in and be pretty good but then especially to be in formula one you've got a it's that next level you know what brings you those final hundreds and that final tenth and stuff um and there are hundreds of thousands of people who can drive a car well you know and you probably could jump in a car and do a pretty good job straight away but then it's those final few little little things um and that isn't all down to who has the most money and those kind of things a lot of that is down to um working with the people around you um a bit of his just experience you know the more kind of testing you get to do and so on the better but um i still drove alongside teammates and had people i was practicing with every week and stuff like that who um aren't in the position i am now so there's no excuse why like that's just suddenly helped me a lot more than them um but uh yeah that final bit is down to the determination of of the driver how much jeff is willing to put in the sacrifices he wants to make from such a young age the i guess like the social life of school is probably the initial one um and you probably don't really realize that until you're a bit more mature and you kind of hit 20 or i'll say more like 18 i would say when you think like i don't really have any friends from school and um from growing up like all my friends are now from just from racing um from karting and and so on um and very few you know every now and then i maybe get a message from some of my my mates from school but it's not like we're best mates anymore it's just like we knew each other and that was all so um yeah i kind of like missed that side of i didn't know like i guess i miss what um i don't know about life from living up you know and going to uni and going out every night all those kind of things that's the life i didn't live but um i would never change that for what i got now so what were the kind of values then that your parents were instilling in you at that young age that you think you still hold true to today just uh like etiquette and um being polite i guess like your interactions with other people you know never thinking that i'm better or more deserved than than anyone else that i work with um i think that shows in like a lot of what i do now in formula one i think personally um like i don't just turn up for formula one and just like i get paid and go home you know i love everything that goes into it working here and in mtc with the mechanics um sometimes you know staying late i do the tours i go and see everyone i do some of my work experience here and just kind of getting to know everyone um before i was the driver race driver for mclaren then i would stay with the mechanic so i'd pack up the garage and take the car apart after the races and stuff um like that i just love you know no choice so i was up no it's nice no no no definitely not expected the other i would say what is expected is the opposite side you know it's just seeing a formula one driver rock up in all the fancy clothes um do their work and then jet off home and um what did it do for you then why why did why make that like that's my that's what i enjoy that's just what i like um and did you understand at that point the value in that as well uh i would say so i mean i was what seven 17 at the time uh 17 17-18 so i knew like the values of of people and how much of a difference that can make how much uh if i help them how much they can help me and just the uh the improvements you can get from doing that um but it was never something i had to do and i mean like honestly it's something i do less of now because i value my time a little bit more of being able to go home and relax a little bit before i go into the next races and stuff especially with how busy we are nowadays but um at that time it was solely because it's just what i love to do i know i like spending time with them and then um you know i go out to dinner and um just taking the car apart i think it's cool like who wouldn't want to get into a formula one car and basically break it all up right so um all of that was just for my enjoyment and stuff i was interested in at the same time i was just an added bonus from that and that was that i got to spend time with them and they liked it and they'd like to help i love that that reminds us of um one of our earlier interviews we did with oligono salsha when he was manager in manchester united and he told us about one of their selection criteria was the guy they would often notice who were the guys that went and collects the bibs and the cones and the balls after training because that told them something about their values of being a team player that they wanted to have in their world and i would recommend rick lewis a businessman he shared his 12 guiding principles of business and one of them was everyone puts the bins out yeah what's the what's the new zealand story when they were sweetly sweeping the [ __ ] right yeah yeah that kind of stuff like yeah just putting that extra little effort in to just help them because um i guess it's easier to see you as the driver as the superior guy within the team rather than the the guy's part of the team wanting to be part of it all so when you were in that position then of sort of working with the mechanics and helping them out yeah what did you see from other drivers that first of all you thought i'm not going to do that yeah and what were the things that you saw that you thought i am going to steal that idea um i mean from the the second point first would be uh it's just an extra opportunity for me to try and do better than someone else like there's no downside from doing it there's no negative like what else you're gonna you're gonna go home and play on the xbox or in the hotel for a bit or just go and grab dinner a couple hours earlier like it doesn't for me that's not like there's no game for me in doing that and for my own career and what i knew there was enjoyment in it and um there's the bonus of working with the team more you know and our relationships improving and so on and knowing that i'm uh i didn't know at the time but i guess more likely to be in the racing seat a couple years later it's only going to be a good thing for me that we have that relationship and bond together so um i think yeah those are the good things the bad things of what i saw on other drivers is as i would say it's more what you hear from from people you know um about the attitudes of different drivers or different people um how uh you know like not order but like how they would just talk to people and how they would talk to them just in front of cameras rather than as soon as the camera's gone they would just go back to being the racing driver not the team player um just some more things like that which you hear and you just think like if i if it was the opposite way around and i was that person i would hate the fact that these people talk about me like that yeah and i would hate that people talk about behind my back of me in a in a bad way because of me thinking i'm much better and above everyone else you know so that's really something i'd hate i think this is really interesting for me personally because when you were much younger i was involved for a short time in formula one and my first ever trip to a factory was red bull where sebastian vettel was involved at the time it was um 2009 and he just joined the team and i remember he had not been there very long and i went in and he knew the guy whose mum had been ill or the girl who just got married or the person who had a you know a physical issue they were trying to deal with at the moment or there was someone i remember at the time who was struggling with their mental health and he spoke to them about that and i was watching this thinking i used to think you just drove a car yeah now i start to realize that and for people that are listening to us and don't understand how complex and involved your world is you're effectively a kind of managing director of a group of people in this building and exactly in a way you have to get them to operate in the way that you like and you have to push them they have to push you i'd be so interested to know when you first walked in this building and you were given the race seat and it was suddenly your responsibility to be the md of that area do you remember what you said or the message you wanted to convey to the people that would be working directly with you to create a culture that you wanted around you i think the the main thing was um bringing like their work and and effort and everything that they put into it and just rewarding them simply um like a lot of what i you know there's always the times when you have to speak to the teams and all the the team here and um i get real nervous in front of the hundreds of people that are there but i feel like there's just so much responsibility on me um and the amount of effort and time that's gone into building what i drive and then like i'm that final piece of the jigsaw that just needs to go out and do the job that they're all expecting so for me it's just um like another part part of that chain and i just want to finish off the job that that they've started um and that's from building the car you know and the drawings that they start off with all the way to the computers to the actual thing and then putting it on track so um yeah like the only things i said is like i just want to do them proud and put together their story of going from a piece of paper to the hopefully a trophy in the end of the day but that's a that's a tough one so and how important was it was the personal relationship with all of these individuals because there's a lot of people on on your side there's a heck of a load of people um so that definitely makes it like more nerve-wracking and you get a lot more nerves from that side of it but um um the main thing for me is like just enjoying things that i do like uh whether or not i would still be here if i enjoyed it i'm not too sure but uh um the main thing i do the reason i do is because i enjoy it so if i want to enjoy things then um my enjoyment doesn't come from me thinking like um i don't really care about the others you know a lot of it comes from me getting to know them and spending some time with them having chats and you feel the benefits of that yes yeah so can you give us a specific example then london of where you feel one of those relationships you've invested in yeah has had a direct tangible effect when you're behind the wheel of a car when you're behind the wheel like it's hard to think of anything directly um some things come from when you're not behind the wheel like you know whether it's just you need a bit of help with something or you just need to contact someone and you know just because you're like you've been nice to them and you've spoken to them and spent 10 minutes with them or something um they will just go that extra little mile for you you know and they'll get you something in return and um not like that's how i work my life and i just want favors from people but uh you know just you put some effort in with them and just spend some time with them and they'll do the same for you when you're driving behind the car like it's difficult like i think there's there's so many parts that come to it um there isn't like just one thing which makes that little bit of a difference um i think yeah i could i couldn't give you an example of when i'm nice to someone like that how it returns to me when i actually drive the car but i think there's more just how everything works in the background and a trust and a trust and um like a responsibility and and um and so on that people will give to you when you give it to them and um if people are staying here late and and so on or if i've had some problems with something then um yeah they would just go out and help me rather me just being someone that they work for or with there's just like i'm their friend or their maid or whatever it is and that definitely makes a difference can we wind back to the first season in formula one um and and from the outside for everyone it would look amazing because you're the youngest ever british dividend in formula one you're still a teenager you're driving a car it's a dream and the car we've got alongside us you know it bears quite prominently the logo for for the mind charity work to support people's mental health everyone has spoken about the joys of being a formula one driver and many people understand that would you mind sharing with us some of the struggles of that first year uh sure um so i think all of it would already start uh at the first race um just like we kind of spoke about the amount of people which are here working on everything and like at that point i just feel like just another driver and i don't feel like i'm way better than everyone else at this point or necessarily believe i'm much better than everyone else at this point but like i'm on the grid and i just think like so many people are watching me i have so much to deliver for for the whole team um and i am a new driver in formula one there's a lot of eyes on me there's expectations um you don't want to let mclaren down you know that's one of the most historic teams in formula one so uh like that already just puts that pressure on um i think when things start going or become tougher or when you just don't you know the media like the media is one of the biggest things how the media portrays you is one of the biggest things so when things start to go wrong when you make a couple of mistakes and the media have a little dig at you um and then fans and you know people on social media start to have more of a dig at you that's when like that self doubt that sometimes i i would have um like that grows when people kind of just add on to that you know and um i was never i struggled a lot in like the final few years to get into formula one so formula three formula two having that belief of am i better than them am i the same as them am i a little bit worse like am i good enough to be in formal one um and that kind of stays even when i was in that first year of formula one like am i good enough to go around monaco and deliver that lap in q3 when it comes or if i'm in a position to be on a podium or uh on top of the podium am i there am i gonna be able to deliver it when when it counts um but uh that's okay and i could live with that quite easily on when maybe i made those little mistakes and so on but um when people add to it and and you see comments that's when you like start to feel a lot worse about yourself and especially when i'm in my first year it's like i know my parents have put so much effort into helping me get to there the team have all that the expectations um the whole world are watching and then you just think like if this goes wrong you know it's my first year in formula one if this goes wrong you know what am i gonna do if i'm not in formula one because this is all i've lived for my whole life um i wasn't the smartest guy in school and i struggled quite a bit in school um like what am i gonna fall on right if if all of this goes wrong and even just having those thoughts is already this is all swirling around while you're still trying to yeah exactly exactly and um you know always putting on like the smiley face for the cameras and all those kind of things like that's not the um the easiest thing but uh yeah just getting to that point when like even you know i had maybe three or four races where i was just struggling a little bit and um i had carlos as my teammate at that at that point and he was doing a very good job he was getting to grips with the car and extracting everything out of it and um just three or four races away like he beat me and i was just like what what like what do i do i just got to the point where i don't know is this the end of it it's like what if i can't just find something else you know what i didn't know what to do at that point that sounds quite lonely did it feel it is yeah especially because i'm a guy who doesn't like to talk too much i guess i sometimes i do but a lot of the time i like to keep things like hidden and tucked inside and stuff and when i have problems i tend not to talk about them um especially back then definitely didn't talk about them as much as what i do now so a lot of it is my mind you know how like i like to think of it more on my own and um and how self-critical were you being at this point i say too much like i'm definitely my biggest critic but like i think a lot of pros and and uc footballers or you know formula one drivers whoever it is i think um uh they're their own biggest critics by you by a long way um but i think you need to learn the balance of it you know and also know when to pat yourself on the back a little bit and say you've done a good job but there was a lot less of that than there was of of um bringing myself down so always having that self-doubt and that um uh being critical of myself and just thinking on my own and not like allowing all this to help me as much as i could because i always thought it would be my fault not someone else's and i would hate to ever blame it on on someone else's this is a good conversation then because we were joined by an explorer called nims purger yeah and he said excuses and remove the learnings yeah right so you're looking at carlos you and you know for those that don't know much about formula one that is the first judge is your team mate right that's the first person to beat and you've been beaten three or four races running by him i'd love to know the process you went through to work that out in your own head because if you just think oh well he's been in the team longer or he's been in the sport longer or he's more experienced than me i could never use experience as the excuse like that was one i could like now i feel like i can use it because i've learned about how much it can actually change yeah um but at that point i just never i would never want to use the excuse apart from it's myself and i just thought about that and i can't use experiences excuse because you've got no understanding of what it exactly gives you exactly and until that point you know i've only ever done one year in every category i've done so i've not spent those multiple years like i've done now in formula one and i just i would i just hated to use it you know if someone could say why why is he done better than you here i go he's just more experienced like it's such an easy thing to say and to use and um and i just really never wanted to to use it but like now i have a much better understanding and i can go i know i didn't do that as well because of the experience but i know at that point i would never have used it so what did you um i think there's just a lot of hours and days probably months of it just like swirling on your head and just you're thinking of things over and over again um like why has he done that better how has he done that better what's he what's he thinking of you know how do you spend his time uh and then you do it to yourself you know like what am i not doing good enough why am i not doing as good as him is it because of this or that or this or that and you just come up with all of these excuses for yourself um but then i kind of got to a point when because it was four races instead of the three it was four like what difference is i kind of got to the point when i started to realize like what what else can i do now to make some changes and um it was like coming here spending a little bit more time with my engineers sitting down just refreshing everything kind of starting again a little bit um and trying to get some of that self-confidence back and back inside because that's one of the biggest things like if i go out and i think you know what i'm confident i can go out and break at this point and i can deliver the lap when i need to just thinking of these little things can already start to just click and start to um just make things turn over a little bit and uh yeah that's when like small things started but it's just getting to that point which is the the difficult part see what's fascinating there there is because it's often referred to what you described in london as the psychological cage so where the weight of expectation everyone's looking at your eyes are on you is heavy yeah the fear of consequences of getting it wrong and making mistakes feels too steep they squeeze you focus on your own ability and what you can do so how did you dial down the expectation levels and how and sort of minimize the fear of getting it wrong to be able to then focus on what you could do differently um i think it gets to like when you're thinking of things for so long like you start to you know i i think i was luckily at a point where i could think of a couple of positive things every now and then and um i'm like i'm in formula one like there must be some things that i i do very well um so you find yourself doing things right yes like i think um what's tricky is like sometimes just understanding that and i think that's when people suffer even more is when they maybe don't see those kind of things um but i think i got i was still able to understand a few of them and think you know i'm here because i'm good enough in many many circumstances and with many things um what are they and just just maximize them so you kind of think how can i still maximize what i'm what i know i'm good at um and when you when i started to think a little bit more on those um that's when you then think of um some of those other things you might definitely not be as good at and then that's when i could start to pick out a few more of the pieces and think okay now i can just start to focus a little bit on this and a little bit on this and then you can start taking those little steps forward but for me almost it was realizing what i'm good at first um and then it kind of you don't get lost with everything you're thinking of you're not thinking am i actually fast enough you know you because that's such a general term to use um it's uh i know i'm fast enough i know i'm good uh in these circumstances um and then i you know it starts to even out like the graph of okay these are the couple places i'm definitely not good enough and it's just that i can focus on them and you have something to focus on rather than just being completely lost with with so many things um and then i you know you just think of them you speak about them a little bit and then you spark conversations and then you talk about them and you just get some slightly better understandings and then you start to gain some momentum and go from there again i think what's really powerful for people to hear in this conversation is that what you haven't said is oh i decided i wanted to win a race i decided i wanted a podium i decided i was gonna be three tenths of a second quicker over a lap those are all outcome focus goals exactly you clearly went into the process and focused on the process yeah i mean it's it's yeah especially when i got when you're in a competition side of it and you want to win um when you want that's like you know that you want that reward something that's going to give you so much pleasure and the team pleasure um it's easy to think of it that way but um i guess you know i'm there's like when i think of i'm good enough to be in formal one there's also things which i would be thinking of and ways of how i work which also going to be good enough you know or good building blocks at least um so i think those those parts of me which i knew were strong enough to like kind of start to realize these things and create a bit of change um and uh and i was lucky i kind of had those things at least to be able to to work from and to start thinking slightly differently and so on um [Music] of course like if i didn't have that i could still be in that bit of a you know spiral and not be thinking i'm still good enough to be in this position and stuff like that but um yeah as soon as i started a little bit and you i don't think i just need to go out and beat him all of a sudden but like how am i going to beat him and the processes then um you start to realize how you can make change so what top tips would you give to people listening to this land though that maybe are in that fogger confusion maybe feeling a bit lost and um well i think like one thing i've not really mentioned as much or i mentioned a little bit earlier was the one thing for me that motivates me more than anything is um is enjoyment and and just fun like it's it's a nice little word but it's um i mean like an immature word to use but it's a fun enjoyment like if i'm enjoying something it makes me work harder and makes me want it more and then it's that a positive spiral of if i work hard i reward myself more i enjoy it more and i work harder and it's just you know you keep going up and uh i say maybe i got to a point where i wasn't enjoying it as much and can you remember when that when that point was um i can't exactly it's in the first season it'll be in the first season like maybe halfway towards three quarters of the way through and i just was like you know like because you're thinking of so many things you're not just thinking of like i'm driving a formula one car in you know in america or japan or whatever it is which is which is just awesome um you start thinking about it and just cloud your judgment like you said so um the the first few things like maybe which i would say sparked it off is i need to enjoy it you know and um i think even like my manager and my trainer could kind of tell what was going on a little bit at this point and um there was a little bit more time spent on having some days away enjoying my life um and maximizing my days at home you know with my family or my friends whatever it was going out a little bit and going out to dinners again and um that kind of just frees your mind up a little bit so i think maybe the first key point is enjoyment you know are you enjoying it yes or no um and kind of understanding can you enjoy it like it's maybe not easy for people to enjoy the job that they have or whatever they're doing but i know i could enjoy formula one and the job i'm in so i know i could enjoy it it's just understanding what kind of brought that to me and so on um and then you can go into those start kind of picking up on those those details so smaller details again but um for me the main thing is um the enjoyment and how can i do that um once i get back into that mentality it's um it's then what we just spoke about is the picking up on the what am i good at what do i know like i'm i'm strong in um and then finding the places that you're weak in and kind of just going from there so let's talk about our favorite subject on the high performance podcasts yep responsibility yeah which quite simply is the ability to respond so we've spoken about you've had some difficult times that first season full of learning you've managed to get through it you've clearly had a lot of self-talk yep and the team have been brilliant around you and you've got to a great place and then we we fast forward to the russian grand prix yes where you're within a whisker of winning your first ever race and fault versus responsibility okay loads of things happen in life that are not our fault yep but they're still our responsibility yes okay it was not your fault that the rain came it was your responsibility a to deal with it on track but then with subsequent events to deal with it afterwards so are you happy to talk through yeah okay your responsibility in that situation yeah um behind the behind the winner of the car i guess is where we begin uh so i guess it starts within the race you know those final few moments um leading uh lewis has called me but i managed to hold him off for five five six seven eight laps um and that's there's that glimmer of hope like uh i'm i'm holding him behind you know there's only five five six laps to go like i know i can continue to do this um and then the rain's going and there's just that that build up of pressure like you know you're focusing you see one little little puddle or a bit of a shiny surface you know it's wet and all these things um and you're then in that communication with the team you know you're trying to give feedback to them they're trying to help you um and i remember getting a little bit shouty on the radio at the time but not in a like my engineer knows it's nothing there's never anything against him right it's just you're in the moment you just say things and um it doesn't really matter like it matters and maybe that's one of the things i've learned now is it matters how it comes across but um the time is just like you know i shout no or shout yes but how they perceive it was kind of a small effect you know kind of a small change or they start to think of something so how did they perceive it how did you find out afterwards um so obviously like we would go through all the radio we go through what everyone is thinking because it's not just me and my engineer you know got strategists um uh at the track you have um like the engineers you've got them strategists back here in mtc and they're all looking at every little bit of data right people who have done the pit stops onto the intermediate tires people who are staying out my pace lewis pace um the big one is there more rain coming is there not any more rain coming um and uh just going back over all of these things and i guess like i didn't realize how shouty i was on the radio like i i mean i come across as like a little kid but it's um it's not like i ever mean to you it's just um where they said do you want to pit for it yeah that's when i said no no yeah have you had the conversation because this is so interesting when it comes to communication have you had the conversation that the way you said no yes meant your race engineer couldn't go no i really think you should uh yes of course we spoke about that um uh but i think we've had like a kind of these conversations before and um i think they just they did kind of understand the situation i was in right with lewis behind me a few laps to go leading the race like even for them there's more pressure you know it's the first time we've been situation of course i think daniel won the weekend before so they're kind of ready we're already a little bit prepared for it but it's um there's so many more factors this time and um we did speak about it and i don't think it changed let's say the over outcome i don't think what i said or how i said it changed the outcome of what we did um even if i just said no you know like no i wouldn't like to pit in a nice way uh it wouldn't have changed anything but maybe people would have started to think slightly differently and so on so you kind of never know but um yes we went through everything that i said how i said it the effects that it could have on myself on the teams on how they then put it across to the other people who were then listening to them and so on uh and the decisions which come from every little bit of information um but uh yeah i guess you kind of need to then realize what um what can be having a big effect and what can't and me just saying no didn't change the outcome in any way but there could be a time and place when it does and um it could also i could simply have you know given them a little bit more information at the same time so just shouting no i could have gone um no i'm happy on the slick tower at the minute but it's very tricky and if it rains any more then i'll need a pit um obviously probably that in a more condensed way and a bit quicker um and and maybe that could have sparked something in their their mind which was um maybe we see a little bit more rain coming maybe we don't whatever it was um let's pit let's not pick it um the the over at the end of the the fact was in the end of it they didn't realize how much more rain was coming and and how much worse it was about to get and i was only with two laps to go so um uh yeah we obviously made the decision and i think like what uh what people say don't realize as much um is that lewis was in exactly the same position as me of course he was in second but uh he didn't want to pit either he was happy with staying on slick tires but the team told him it's about to rain a heck of a lot more you need to pit um and that's like information that i didn't get given um and if if they maybe said to me it's about to rain a lot more then i would have been like okay then i'll need a pit so it would go both ways you know it's stuff i could have helped with with them and stuff that they could have given to me um and it's not still as simple as that there's so many other factors and things that they're looking at and seeing and so on um but like as a simple way of putting it that's that's what it came down to so how did you flush out that disappointment how long did it take yeah and what was the process that you went through um to move on i mean like the next let's say two three four days were pretty tough um just because it's like always been thinking that could have been my first win in formula one um and i think as far as like that could that could have been my only win in formula one you know my only chance to formula you never know because you don't know what car we're gonna have this year and next year and so on but um there's times when you know people's f1 careers only lasts a couple years or three four years whatever it is so it's like could that have been my only chance to win a race in formula one and then you kind of like what we spoke about earlier what could i have said differently what could have done differently and i think of all of these things but then when we sat down and just it's hard to stop for a little bit and you kind of review everything in a clean way in an efficient way um you pick apart the things we did well the things we didn't do well um and what could have been a what were the deciding factors with everything um what but it now than the single biggest bit of learning for you from the main thing is to um never like get caught up in a moment so the moment of that was i'm leading a race uh i got louis behind me it's wet um i'm not i wasn't thinking as clearly as what i should have been thinking and um the more information i can just clearly give the team the more they can understand like the position that i'm in how i'm feeling um and the easier we can make decisions but um yeah because sometimes i maybe just say no when i expect too much of of them you know i expect them to just know what i'm thinking what i'm feeling when when they don't you know they can see data they see the lines and graphs whatever but they're not behind the wheel so they don't know like am i really like you know am i pushing like hell um if i got a little bit more am i going to be in the wall like all of these little things so um just kind of staying calm which is such an easy thing to to say but doing it when you're in that circumstance is very different um but um but just clearing concise information it's just always the best thing and um them giving it to me in in our way and and vice versa is only going to help us win races and get on the podium more often so understanding that is the the best thing so will you take us into that debrief meeting then lando and tell us the kind of questions that you're asking to get the best results yeah to learn and move on next time um so i think one of the the main things which i came back from after rush and having those few days off to think about it is uh or um the first one is what could i have done differently uh again just thinking of it like as a as a me fault what could i have done differently and um then you we you know we listen to the radio and all of these things um and and for me it was just all i wanted to understand was was it my fault yes or no um in the end it's easier to like to say no like now um it wasn't my fault but that doesn't mean like there's nothing i could have done better and of course we just kind of spoke about some of those things that i could have done better and should have done and um already some of these things were put into practice i think a couple weeks later back in in turkey when it was drying out a little bit it was hard to choose whether to go intermediates or slicks went to box and so on um and it goes from the week of russia mercedes looking like heroes all clever they made the best decision ever we made the worst and was completely flipped the next week the mercedes made a terrible decision when to box we made a really good one we gained they lost um and then it's just suddenly you know how quickly things can can just change and flip but already some of those decisions we made at that race in turkey were affected and changed because of what happened in russia so we already put some of that into practice and it came out much better um but yeah as a person i suppose from a personal note was understanding wasn't my fault yes or no like that's just something i need to get off my chest you know nice and early um and then you look at the smaller things and what what could i have said which might might have helped um and uh it was down to that if it rained any anymore um [Music] i couldn't have stayed out i would have needed to box and if they knew it was about to rain more which is the thing that they didn't um then then we would have made the decision to box but they didn't have as much information as what they needed or didn't understand the information as well as they needed to um didn't get that across to me as well as we needed to and maybe that little bit of information i could have given could have changed things i don't think it would have done but um yeah there's always that next time when those things can can come again and we can try and do a better job it's a good reminder that what is hard for you isn't necessarily bad for you i mean like you're a better you're better exactly i'm much happier that it's happened in a time when i'm not going for a championship you know i'm not going even for top three or top four you know i'm going for sixth or seventh championship like for me it's not a big achievement to do something like that so do you think about the first win because i think it's so easy to sit in now and think i just want to win a race but yeah if you could be an 11 year old orlando again you just want to be in formula one you have to be very careful becoming obsessed with the outcome yes because you either get there and then you're demotivated or you never get there and you're demotivated no i i wouldn't of course i think of it i can't lie i think everyone on the grid would say they thought about winning the race and uh especially that one you know when i saw then lewis i think it was his 100th race win and just made me feel even worse like i just gave him his 100th race win i've not even got one um and you know you see those you know a few cases where the outsiders won the race you know you've got mercedes and red bull you're always going to win but um you know when when esteban won the race in uh budapest um uh who else one i think carlos won a race at some point also or i know a few different drivers one who won in mercedes or red bull and that's when it looks even cooler because they're the people in my position it's the benefit to you and thinking like that because there are hundreds of people my son being one of them looking at you thinking i'd like to be where he is yeah and you're thinking you want to be i guess you always move those expectations you've always you're always going to up them and like what's the next step for you to achieve something and you always want to be satisfied by reaching achievement um but i think in in formula one that's so difficult because uh it's not like a a guarantee you're ever going to win a race or be on the podium or anything like that and that could have nothing to do with you right it could just be because of reliability or your car's not quick enough or the rain comes or whatever it is so it's never always going to be your fault so maybe there's some things you can change here in there but uh um no i think you need to understand when you get to formula one a race win doesn't necessarily mean your first place in in the race right um like a race win for me um two years ago like in austria was being third place zero chance i would have ever won a race impossible like an seo crash and whatever but in terms of actually achieving our maximal potential um it was definition in third place and that's what i did so i maybe would have been even happier winning the race but that's there's no point thinking about it because it just never would have happened so i just had to be i feel like a race win was a p3 for me and a bit of see what's really interesting is you're describing the process and performance goals that are within your control the outcome is the stuff that you've learned yes exactly but what what fascinates me when i was reading about your background under is given your age that the driver that's been dominant as you've grown up in the sport watching it is somebody that's now a rival so how do you mentally get beyond seeing somebody that might have been a hero five years ago to now be somebody that you want to topple uh it's a it's a tricky one because the first few times i really began to or i had a chance to race him well like austria um you would say russia a little bit kind of can i keep a seven-time world champion behind me um these kind of things which like they do play on your mind a little bit and were you thinking that can i keep a seven-time world champion or were you thinking can i be the guy driving that guy yeah cause like at that time i'm thinking i'm not necessarily thinking exactly those words yeah but um they're thinking i'm like yeah i'm going around and you're just on the straight you're thinking all right like what is he gonna try and do now like what what what has he understood or what's he learned over the last whatever 20 years that um he's gonna try and outsmart me on um is it the the battery is it the tires is it the engine mode is it um uh is he gonna try and like pull back to make it make me feel like i'm comfortable and then pounce and then have a go and like and all these things playing on my head what's what's he going to try and outsmart me on um and uh yeah those things definitely play on you play on your mind a little bit on especially like we spoke about um the experience side of it you know there's something he's gonna be more experienced than me on um i just need to be ready to anticipate what that might be um i might know it i might not but i just gotta be ready for those kind of things so um once you then go through that that little feeling you have and those those thoughts and you have an outcome um the outcome of the race obviously was was not a good one uh we should have won and we didn't but um the outcome of i managed to hold them off for as long as i could and he didn't just cruise past me it wasn't like i made a mistake and he came past me he didn't outsmart me um then just gives a little bit more confidence like well you didn't actually do anything out of this world and do something which i wasn't expecting or anything you know and um and the same in austria like there wasn't something he just did that extra mile which i was just like wow that's unbelievable you know i covered the basics there are smaller things which i need to be prepared for but um these things give you a big confidence booster once you achieve them and um it's just because you kind of overthink it sometimes it's easy to overthink things and that's when it can get much trickier than it needs to be we've almost reached the end where we do our quick fire questions okay before we get there like i just get this overriding sense that this would have seemed like such an alien environment when you first walked in and i'm sure the imposter syndrome was strong and you know you would have thought of all those mclaren drivers over the years and the more we've spoken the more comfortable you seem about being a formula one driver behind the wheel how comfy are you as a formula one driver as a public figure i mean i'm thinking [Music] the relationship with the press or the the scrutiny not necessarily criticism because i see just positivity about you but i see a lot of scrutiny you know a photo goes up with you and a young lady and i see your name trending on twitter you know i can't even begin to imagine what that is like because and i don't want this to come across the wrong way but you're still only in your early 20s like when you're 43 maybe you should deal with it but um i just think that all the years of driving and racing carts doesn't equip you for that side of it so where are you on that element these days um i definitely it's like right now i'm definitely in the best position i've been in uh not just like you said as a racing driver but my just being a normal person away from the circuit um a bit of that has just come with the making the mistakes and posting something i shouldn't have done or um saying something i should have done and you get again the experience of learning about these kind of things learning how media can pick up on something so small or how especially fans would you share with us your biggest learning from that where you thought i didn't even mean that i was like oh um i mean there's not been one one big thing but it's just been like comments you know where i would have said something and like it would have been probably about lewis or sebastian you know one of the the drivers i respect more than anyone that you said something which obviously you didn't something about lewis wasn't it about it means less or something if you win in that car or something yeah oh yes yeah yeah um well i was mercedes right that's what it was it was like it's a great car kind of comment yes like you you should expect him to win a race because he's in a mercedes which then it gets twisted probably the same thing everyone in the world thought about but just me saying it in an interview is what changes so how do you still be yourself um that's that's the tricky thing because like what i meant i would never mean something to have bad intentions like that's just not the person i am um unless i really hate someone but uh i would never mean it especially in an interview when i have nothing against a person louis at this point or mercedes like what's the reason there's no gain for me to do so doesn't it that's just silly um so the fact people want to put it across that way um and if people believe that then they obviously just don't know me very well right but um uh the obvious one is i just gotta be more careful with what i say here and there um but uh but you like once you kind of get through it a couple times and you maybe say two or three things people start to just kind of have um like a bit more of a belief in you in the things you say rather than you just saying one comment which is just outrageous um and just kind of maybe the respect as well you've got to gain that little bit of respect by sometimes saying things that people don't agree with um because then you lose those say fans you lose those few people which i just like um hate you for saying those kind of things and i'm very happy to have people you know not following me anymore if they kind of just want to believe everything that they see in social media and things like that because then they simply don't know who i am very well so you just got to yeah accept it a couple of times like it's you just got to go through those hard times um being told off by the team and things like that but like you just kind of also realize that you have the right to say things that you want um and not everyone's gonna agree with it um but yeah like i never want people to think of me in a bad way or think like we spoke in the beginning that i'm think i'm miles better than everyone and i should have more right to do things and say things than than other people like that's um far from what i would ever believe and uh and i want to lead people to believe so um yeah it's hard because i would always have the best intention but just people understanding that is what was difficult so um just saying it like now and people listening to this and the more people will believe like exactly that's just how it comes powerful and i think maybe two or three years ago the team or you wouldn't have necessarily wanted a conversation like this yeah but you get comfortable in your exactly and it's like you're here for a short time you get comfortable with with people not liking it like that's something you just have to do you have to get people with you have to get comfortable with people not liking what you say here and there um and just live with it like that's just a part of life as people that's people you know different opinions and it means you stand for something sure exactly yeah and um i think before i was a little bit more in the middle you know where i just i would say these things but i just didn't want to people to have opinions on me i just wanted to be nice and in the middle ground of everywhere whereas i guess now i feel like i can stand up for my own opinion a little bit more and say what i want a little bit more and and understand that people are going to be with me and some people are going to be against me and um i'm happy but like i'm i'm fine with that nowadays like that's just i've understood that's life that's always going to happen as long as people and humans are around that's just the the way we're made and uh yeah just got to deal with it but that's all wonderful right lando a quick five questions far away the first one is the three non-negotiables that you and the people around you need to buy into the three rules that you live your life by really enjoy life number one by mile enjoy life be kind you'll help those people you know make their day make their week you know if i take one minute of my day to go and sign a picture for a kid or something like sometimes it's not necessarily what you want to go and do but you just made that kids yeah sometimes you know and it's just a cool feeling you get after it so be kind because you give it to them and it will give back to you eventually number three ah those are the only two really number three um learn when you know you've done a good job and be happy with that yeah and kind of then make work from there rather than just find yourself right be kind to yourself yeah not only other people but be kind to yourself yeah so those two things are most important to me if you could go back to any one moment in your life what would it be and why uh not to change right just to kind of relive it um unless you want to change something no no there's no point in changing something um i would love to go back to just when i was younger i was always rude to my parents so i'd love to be a bit nicer to them at times um yeah uh be nice to my parents i like the fact you don't want to go and change things like you could easily go back to russia and say oh i'd put on yeah yeah but it would remove the learning i know you remove the learning and just remove the point of life like if everything's perfect it's not as enjoyable so up and down right up and down would you recommend one book or podcast or tv series apart from this one um books i'm not a reader um no i'm a nerd i'm a gamer so i spent too much time on my screens and stuff um the only one that i the two that i've read is the my engineering gave it to me it's the one about new zealand sweeping the sheds everything um learning what it means to be a team player rather than ever thinking about yourself first uh that's number one and number two was the subtle art of not giving a [ __ ] yeah um yeah like again that's one of the things which helped me like i understand all of these things that go on when you get to formula one and lead up to formula one is understanding what you should care about or what you shouldn't um and uh that's made my life much easier what's been the biggest sacrifice you've made to be become a high performer and would you make it again um i would make it again because i've got to live my life and achieve my own goals and not live someone else's life um but uh spending as much time with my family i would say is number one or like not having spent as much time with my family is what i would have done if i was just um i don't know going to school and having a normal job and stuff like that um and the friends you know like the whole social side of it all um yeah that's definitely one thing i would like it's a sacrifice i realize how much of a difference it's made now and just as a family thing like you just want to spend more time with your family and it's always a nice thing and lastly your kind of final message really for the listeners or the viewers if they're watching this on youtube to your uh your one golden rule for a high performance life um oh it's the obvious one enjoy it enjoy it i don't know maybe everyone says that but for me it's just like a huge part of my life i got to enjoy everything i do um you know take time away from work sometimes to go and do things you want um but enjoy it and if you don't enjoy it suck it off and go and do something else brilliant i think it's a it's a strong message and you know it's a simple one but it is like a really simple one so it's like i feel like a lot of people are going to say oh yeah because people sit on this podcast as high achievers and high performers and they don't realize the power of the low points or the difficult times yeah they've made life stronger for them they don't understand that they should be focused on the process because they're still focused on the outcome and therefore they don't realize that actually enjoying it is so important you know johnny wilkinson who won the rugby world cup for england he kicked the winning drop goal how long he told us that he felt that thrill for for three seconds or something exactly that really three seconds it's either only three seconds or this whole life so you take that into the rest of your days because when you finally get that one no doubt will happen maybe even the world championship if three seconds later that flame starts to dull yeah and you haven't enjoyed the journey um then something's wrong somewhere so exactly but you've got to make the sacrifices to get there so you won't enjoy every minute but yes but you should you know the sacrifices can be enjoyable in life yeah it's a good lesson for people to understand please hit subscribe hit the notification bell give us a thumbs up leave a review but somehow get involved with the high performance podcast and become part of our growing community thanks for being part of the adventure