Transcript for:
Cosmic Rebellions in Biblical Context

[Music] God keeps uh Jacob Israel as his allotted inheritance and he for a Time disinherits the nations of the world and he gives an allotment of these nations to the sons of God to the Ben Elohim and in so doing this is stewardship stewardship the goal is stewardship protect them take care of them until I bring them all back into the family well where's I bring them all back into the family this is Genesis 12 the abrahamic Covenant where does Abraham come from he comes from Earth of the calans where's ER of the calans ER of the calans is Babel it's roughly the area of Babel so literally in Genesis 12 God goes into the epicenter of rebellion and he picks one family draws them out to himself and he says hey by the way you are going to be the means by which all the families of the world were brought back together [Music] by which all the families of the world were brought back together the history of our Earth is so different from what we can imagine enjoy the journey that if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere was to go get it I'm going to assume at least one person is right because if one person's right it busts the Paradigm it all goes back to the phone CH and the problem with the modern day Church they have a very truncated view of the supernatural this backdrop that's just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Herman event welcome to blurry creatures creatures and this guy defects from the kingdom that's a big deal all right so welcome back to blurry creatures everyone out there Luke Luke got uh got this going Joel's got a new book Dr Joel m is back in the house back in the blurry verse we are going to go we're going to go 100 miles an hour today but if you can't see what we can see we're both wearing camo in in support of Dr Joel's new book The Hidden piece uh we just came off our trip in Costa Rica we had some wild days all day long between you and Tim I walked off stage with my head spinning and uh Joel thank you so much for coming on that Costa Rica trip I everyone loved it we got so much great feedback about you and your thoughts and Tim's a hard guy to pair up with somebody because he's so he's so unique and you handled it perfectly and everything was great but today we're gonna and I I would add this too I think and I said this and I still believe this that the session we had and this has not been it's going to be released at some point the the video and the audio from but I really do believe that session where we did the galactic war and Cosmic geography with you and Tim is maybe my favorite yeah you said that episode or session we've ever done I thought it was so exceptional and I think it's just a testament to you know to jool to your just your Acumen and then also just the way that you and and Tim being sort of you know just justop POS in some ways with with your with with not only your sort of your sitting being you being a theologian and and Tim a researcher and your ideas but I thought it played so well yeah it's it's really hard to get that at at a conference yeah you guys are able to find Common Ground I think so so many people want to debate points especially in scripture people draw hard lines and die on Hills that that I believe most the time are really stupid because they're not salvic you're not they're not salvic right and but I just I loved loved that and and I I just loved a lot of folks that went to our our conference had the ability you know to to just to spend time with you and see you you and Britt you are you're a special person and I I'm grateful that we got the chance to meet you know last year and it's been a fun been a fun year and you have a brand new book out this this episode is coming out which your book comes out March 5th it will be out when when this drops and so everybody go check it out the hidden piece this is Dr Joel male's book on on humility so he's given us pieces throughout our sort of our our blurry Journey with you you talked a bit about it at the conference um and today we're going to we're going to talk about some things that kind of play ancel into some major thematic pieces of your book but yeah yeah we're we're talking the three Cosmic Rebellion today this is huge this is like the Turning Point my own putting together like all my history of Christian you know churches and groups this was a big deal I remember when I heard Heiser say that there's three things going on in the old there's three major themes in the Old Testament and and we were only taught one most of us growing up in church I love this topic it was huge for me it transformed it was a huge part of wanting to start the blurry journey of like man I want to uncover all these things and figure out Nate what' you say this is this was the hidden piece to your journey this was the hidden piece to my journey and uh here it is we got some we're we're gonna drop some dad jokes today so you guys out there the journey you've been on we'll try to keep it we'll try to keep it PG but as you know well I'm excited you guys I and I think uh a couple things I'm I want to just touch on one the Costa Rica Tri trip for me was life-changing it truly was lifechanging my wife and I got to uh go on that trip and the representation of the blurry fam was just phenomenal uh at dinner often we sat with just like like people you know like everybody who was there and uh even to this day we're still in conversation with some friends that we made uh there and so I'm just grateful for the both of you taking a taking a risk like following the Holy Spirit and just being like Hey we're going to do this thing and what a powerful moment on on that boat to like just you know Nate by the way if y'all don't know this Nate can Nate can can dive like he can dive into the water like he did a he did a full-on dive like head first looking like Michael Phelps the whole nine yards and it was pretty amazing but another thing too is Tim is brilliant I mean he really is a brilliant mind and he was such a fun conversation partner uh to be to be with because Tim's perspective and my perspective actually hinge together on Jesus like like we you will notice this in the C like we always just kept going back to like Jesus like the point of the story is is Jesus now how we get to that hinge at times is colored in different ways and that was just a really fun exercise for me and then for you guys to know behind the scenes Nate knows this and Luke knows this we just had fun man we all stayed the same uh Airbnb that night uh those nights and we just had a lot of fun but I wanted to maybe get into the the conversation and I know we're talking about like humility and in this book and and one of the things just from a very practical standpoint is like this question why are blurry conversations difficult like when you're out with somebody and you are like hey have you ever thought about Genesis 6 and the Nephilim just breaking the ice just breaking the ice Joel you ever thought about this not for us it's the opposite everyone wants to talk about that with us no no no but I'm talking about so so this is a really important uh distinction right I'm not talking about the blurry verse fam that this is every day like you know we're going to do Genesis 6 today and you guys like oh yeah we we've thought about that I'm talking about when you're at you're in coffee with somebody and you want to with your friend who you're friends with and you have been friends with for a long time but this one part of your life the blurry part of your life has not been exposed to them right because there's a there's a sense of vulnerability to be able to just say hey by the way like I actually really really do believe that Genesis 6 should be read simplicit like simply like yes that these are Angelic beings the sons of God who cohabitate with human women and like like even as I say that now and you hear that you can probably feel the tension of how do I communicate this with somebody who has never had that Paradigm who's never even thought of a of a cosmic understanding of the scriptures and so this is where for me personally humility has truly been this massive Journey for me and on a just a very practical level if there's like if you're like man how do I even engage into this conver ation with a friend or somebody that I dearly love that I want to be able to have these conversations with I I honestly do believe the hidden peace as a resource as a book is going to be a perfect resource and a book to hand to your friend because there are two specific chapters in there where we cover pride and my entry point into pride is actually the origin story of Satan like some of what we're going to talk about the Nash what's happening in Eden and and all this stuff it all all comes back to this question of who is the serpent what is the serpent doing and what is this this idea of a divided household and and what is this Cosmic rebellion and so from just a practical level I think humility like this this entire conversation is so vital for specifically the blurry verse because y'all if we are not willing to just consider step back and consider I may not have it right like you know amen Joel that's huge because like a lot of times like one of our main critiques that we get and we don't have to go into the detail to this is just Luke and Nate are gullible they believe everything comes on their show and it's like no we we have the humility to listen to someone tell their story and we don't believe everything we hear but but what we put out in in try to is like model some humil like I don't know tell me what do you think and then we like sort through it and go but I I think that hopefully it's not gold ability and we just believe everything it's it's more like hey it's taken us each 40 some years to kind of I don't know you tell me what's your story what have you experienced what do you know and I think that what we do here and sometimes the critique is you guys put out way too crazy stuff and and you you believe everything and it's like asking questions and listening to somebody is now Gable that's not the case I don't think but not to not to toot our horn or anything I would say that it's yeah I would actually say it's a sign of Honor it's a sign of dignity you know like the willingness to be able to listen to somebody else and to say hey what are your views where do you come from give the data like like like let's have some informed dialogue around this and then your ability to be like hm that's really interesting and you know one of my favorite phrases from a scholarship standpoint is to say thank you so much like I feel like I've got a 360 degree really like angle on on your thesis or what you're trying to argue and yet I'm unconvinced like you can say that you you can actually have better understanding of the argument and still be unconvinced of that argument and that doesn't take away from anybody it doesn't take away from the value of the argument or the substance of the argument it just means at this point in time you're just not convinced yet you know and I think it's really important that we use that operative word yet it's when we put I'm not convinced period that is very difficult because there's no room for the opportunity of there might be more data points that come in later on in your life that change that I'm not convinced yet to huh I I think I'm convinced today and I told you guys this and I said this at the Costa Rica deal when I was early when when my doctoral adviser who we all love here on this uh podcast Dr Michael Heiser when Mike and I first met I was a punk kid who used to walk into a renowned Old Testament scholar semetic languages Scholars office and tried to argue with him that we should not have a supernatural reading of the scriptures like that that Psalm 82 doesn't say what it says that Genesis 6 doesn't say what it says I arcued for a seite view and you know Mike would just sit there with me and just like he would just grin he'd have this grin on his face and he would he'd be like all right so tell me why and I would give him you know and then he would give me H and so like I am sitting in front of you truly as a paradigmatic like just an example of somebody who who has changed over time because I can't ignore the data that's in front of me the facts that are in front of me the scriptures as how they point to one cohesive story and one of the big things this is again when you guys hear me a lot of what you're going to hear often is going to be fragranced with a lot of what Heiser has taught me and the things that he has worked hard part of what I believe my kind of role and responsibility that God has given me to move forward is to continue to reemphasize what Mike has spent spent his life researching communic like you know Mike would always say I'm here to collect dots connect dots and communicate the dots and and I feel like I I'm an extension of his communication of those dots that he's already done and so this is going to be one of those examples but I remember something that Mike said to me once and and I was just shook by it and he said you know Joel if you asked someone of Jewish to sent or someone who lived in the second temple period what's the cause for all the pain and evil in the world um you would be shocked at their response and he goes but if you ask somebody today like like just an Evangelical Bible believing Christian or whatever else and you said hey what is the cause of evil in this world they' be like Genesis 3 absolutely Genesis 3 but for a s second temple reader for a second temple person who lived in the context of the writing you know not it wouldn't be so simple it it it would actually be like oh Genesis 3 Genesis 6 and Genesis 11 you see there would be three three touch points that they would attribute the chaos the anxiety the fear the frustration the the Turning of the world upside down to these three vanish points Genesis 3 is just a part of that conversation but it's not the full part of the conversation and Genesis 6 and Genesis 11 are massive and so the conversation I think that is really important for us to kind of retrieve is the second temple understanding of what is the actual cause what is the actual situation that has placed us where we are today in 2024 where we're dealing with all kinds of chaos that's happening in life right we've got spiritual chaos emotional chaos physical chaos relational chaos I mean like we could just talk about chaos and the chaos Monster with the Leviathan all day every day and that same imagery that same situation is here today and so what I found is that really what what we have present for us that the Old Testament lays out and that we have to retrieve is the sense that there are in fact three Cosmic rebellions throughout the scriptures and if we don't get these three Cosmic rebellions right it's actually going to be a hindrance for us to understand what does Jesus actually accomplish on the cross yeah like we want to go to the cross and we want to talk about the cross we want to talk about the victory of the Cross but what does that actually mean that Jesus was Victorious on the cross and I would argue this is kind of like my big thesis statement that the three Cosmic rebellions always are parallel throughout scripture and in fact this is a pattern that has a purpose throughout all of the Bible that there's always an Earthly reality and next to simultaneously parallel to that Earthly reality is a supernatural reality and these two things are always supposed to coincide with each other but post Enlightenment movement we've lived in a world where we've tried to demythologize the Bible we tried to separate what is Earthly and what is cosmic and that is foreign to how the first century readers and hearers of the scriptures even understood like what was happening in the narrative structure of humanity Joel what what did Mike say specifically to you that started to change your mind because I've heard it said many times like true intelligence is the ability to change your mind you know it's like having the internal dialogue it's having going back and forth in your head and coming to a better thought and changing your mind and you don't see that often people will dig in and they will stay in their camp and it's forever and you can't you can't get them out of that camp what did Mike say to you that started to shift your Paradigm yeah and what's interesting is Mike I mean was so brilliant I mean there was no doubt that he was smarter than me on all accounts you know and the funny thing is is it wasn't like Mike never shamed me into intellectual understand like he didn't use his intellectualism as an elitist weapon against me right but what he did was he drew some connections and so one of the biggest things that he that he helped me see was that I've actually been blinded by my Western reading of the text so when I see the English word god with the capital G in my Bible I have presumed an understanding of what that English word god with that capital g means in context to every time that it's present and and then he I mean then it was a Snowball Effect for me where I go well I'm Indian I have a cultural background like the way that I view certain things in culture is colored it's it is informed by the way that I was raised that is directly connected to the fact that I was raised as an immigrant child of an immigrant family you know that came from India like if you come into my house my mom's house you would have to take off your shoes when you come in like you're going to expect to go into this room that nobody is ever allowed to go into unless you're a guest that my mom loves she's going to hand you chai and biscuits I mean these are all cultural things that actually frame relationships and so when all oh when are we going to wait hold let we going go visit the male M I want some CH biscuits next time you're how do we score that anybody it won't just be that she'll be making you some Indian food your life will change forever homemade n changing thinking about it oh my gosh absolutely but so for me for me y'all this this was what it was was huh when the Bible talks about the gods of the Nations that that word Elohim what the scriptures are pointing at is not non-existence but it's talking about a lack of superiority in comparison to Yahweh right and and that simple thread was the thing that was pulled that changed my entire understanding of the Old Testament like I'm working through the Bible in a year right now chronologically and I'm in numbers in Deuteronomy and it finally it just makes sense the Lang the land acquisition you know like how many times do the Nephilim the anakim the rfim how many times do they show up and they are this thorn in the side of Joshua and the Israelites as they're trying to take over the land and it's like well there's an issue here there there there's a there's significant problem and this problem actually permeates and flows from Genesis 6 but if you only have a Genesis 3 understanding then you're left scratching your head wondering why in the world are the Nephilim keep being mentioned and why does this King a of Bashan why does he have this massive freaking bed you know like this is weird well it's only weird because you've stripped the narrative structure of Genesis 6 out of the natural flow of what's actually happening in the story of Israel and so for me that was like the big thing of just saying like oh this is an ancient document that is written in a culture in a time and just like today if I were to say hey where were you at 911 you would all be like oh I was here I was there and the funny the interesting thing is like all I said were 9 and 11 like two sets of numbers well how did you make the connection that I'm talking about a tragic event that took place in New York where a plane went into two buildings in an act of like horror like you'd be like oh the context the social setting like I remember where I was it was written all over the place well there's a a sense of I don't want to say this gently but but also like accurately there's a sense of arrogance on our on our part Pride on our part to strip the text of its natural historical social and cultural context because what that does is it makes our context the primary context of the scriptures which is absolutely absurd right it's just absurd it makes no this is why we we leave the Old Testament scratching our heads like let's just go to Jesus in the New Testament but then we only get a very shadow of what Jesus is even doing because we haven't even understood the con like Jesus is constantly quoting Isaiah he's constantly quoting Deuteronomy he is living out the story of Israel of the Old Testament I know we need to get into these three Cosmic rebellions but that's exactly like why I think this is so vitally important why humility is at the very center of this discussion conversation and the center of your book man this is It's amazing I do think man there's your story and then thisy macro idea uh and Nate kind of mentioned it too the idea of approaching things with humility like that I don't know everything and that I am a 21st century Westerner for the V people who listen to this show as well and you know and not not the 21st century but the western part obviously unless you time travel we'll have you on the show just shoot us an email but no I I think it's in an era where everyone like n said everyone digs in and dies on a hill you know hermeneutics or or or scripture or yeah you know the way they interpret eschatology whatever that is yeah it's it's completely lacking in in in the idea of humility as you said and and I love the story of you changing your mind speaking of Mike Mike was a brilliant a brilliant man and uh and I would say this encourage you man I think you're doing an unbelievable job of carrying that mantle like I and that just as your friend but also someone who gets to watch you live it out right and I I do believe that's such important work and and Mike always said and he said on our show that like he didn't have any original ideas he just compiled as you say connected dots right and and I think but I think those dots he connected are so imperative for as you said under understanding the work of Christ when you present these three rebellions when you just give people the facts like Tim has said many times on her show The Gospel isn't I used to do drugs and I don't do it anymore the gospel is understanding the fullness of what Christ repairs mhm and when you're presented with that and like with with a little bit of that Marvel movie energy and you can really step back and see it you can't help but fully understand why you need Christ and why you're giving your life to him and I think that's why when I listened to to Heiser talk about this I was like ah because a lot of people walk away from Jesus because they don't really get it it's like it's on a billboard give your life to Jesus and you drive by it every day to work you're like okay but what what does that mean what am I really doing and why do I need him and I think I think that's why these the in-depth conversation we're about to have is is why yeah that's great uh so let's start in Genesis let's start in Genesis 3 and I think this is one of those things that sometimes our familiarity with something can actually create a type of forgetfulness for us and the Genesis 3 narrative is often incredibly familiar like and we think we kind of assume or prese assume that we have all the understanding that we need for what's taking place in Genesis 3 but I want to just give us some like Hallmark Landmark kind of ideas and and for a second you know if you're listening to this I want you to and this is just for a second this is not for forever so don't get mad at me but just for a second it's like I wear glasses take off your glasses take off the lens by which you've understand Genesis 1 2 and 3 for just a moment and just just try to step into the mind of an ancient Hebrew and be like what is actually happening in Genesis 1 2 and 3 and how did the author of Genesis who I would hold traditionally was Moses who wrote the first five books of the Old Testament definitely was some editorial in there as well like like what was he trying to communicate for us to understand and again this might stress some people out I don't believe that Genesis in general the the Bible in general actually but for sure Genesis 1 through3 is purely scientific like it's not trying to prove science to us it's actually trying to show us who is Yahweh how is he a good father and what does he desire for his family right and we get to see some other interesting details so one of the first important things about Eden uh and we've talked about this in nauseum in other places and and even on the uh podcast here is like like Eden's on a mountain Eden's on a mountain mountains matter to people so I want you to just think about the last time you sat at the foot of a massive building right like you're pulling the other day I was fing into Charlotte and you can just see the the the city and the big towers and the spatial difference of flying on top of something versus land and being at the bottom of something does something to you when you're on top of it you feel Superior Supreme you're like I'm the king of the world but when you land and you're at the foot of that thing you're like I am tiny I am minute right so there's this natural thing inside of us it's like we'll get to the top like who doesn't want to feel like they're they're at the top who doesn't want to feel like they're the king of the world right or the queen of the world and so um mountains in the same way in the ancient world they mattered they mattered to the people they believe that this High spot on this geographical land was the place where God met with humanity and so you have this description in Genesis 1 2 and 3 and for the sake of time you can just actually read the text or you can read GK Beal's uh book uh it's a monograph on the temple of God it's just brilliant where he makes it theological and scholarly case to show that Eden is on a mountain and not only is it on a mountain but Eden is actually the first temple home of God so Eden is actually a garden Temple well how do we know that Eden is a garden Temple well because the king of the cosmos plants Eden on a mountain in the ancient near Eastern World Kings would plant Gardens well why would Kings plant Gardens Kings planted Gardens to enjoy the garden with their royal family right like it would be it would be asinine to plant a garden and just leave and not do anything with it why would you do that like you plant and so now we have a problem because the garden is planted but it's empty of a particular type of family and what is that family Humanity so God creates Adam and Eve and and the language is actually really important Genesis 2:15 it says that God places them in Eden there's some spatial understanding here in the Hebrew text where the idea is that from the ground God creates Adam and lifts him the Hebrew word here Noah it has connotations of rest it's not the normal word for put it actually has um connotations on overtones of rest and so fascinating prior to Adam and Eve ever doing anything Yahweh creates Adam Picks Them Up and puts Humanity on Eden which is on top of a mountain and then speaks over them blesses them basically Zephaniah he's he's singing over them and then he commissions them in order to do the work to do the command to do the kind of dominion mandate and all this is really important because now you've got this picture of Eden as the place where God dwells where throughout the Old Testament the place where God dwell dwells is Holy it's the temple in fact that the Hebrew word be which is household is is used in three primary contexts Beth is used as a household like Family household it's used as a temple So it's talking about the temple household of God and it's also used in Kingdom language as a kingdom y'all all three are present in Eden you've got God who is King but God is also Priestly and so he creates his Priestly Vice Regents Adam and Eve to help Steward and take care of his Heavenly home and it's a kingdom because God is King and so he wants his kingdom to expand onto the Earth now we get Rebellion right like wouldn't it be great if everything ended with Genesis 2 and like we just lived in the edenic paradise like right now and that's not the story so what is actually happening with Genesis 3 when the serpent shows up one of the challenges that we have is and and again I want to I want to show this we're going to see this multiple places that every time you have Earthly Rebellion there's Cosmic Rebellion next to it right there's a spiritual Rebellion that's right next to it every time you have spiritual Rebellion you have a Earthly Rebellion that's next to it the biblical text does not demarcate these two things they're always presenting it together uh and in fact we can talk about Jesus later but that's what we'll find with Jesus uh I'm going to read a section from uh my book The Hidden piece where I actually uh get into this and I think this is important it says this that throughout scripture so you've got the serpent who kind of shows up in Eden right so throughout scripture Satan is referred to through a variety of names you've got the serpent in Genesis you've got the prince of demons Matthew 912 Mark 2 Mark 3 you've got the prince of the power of the air Ephesians 2:2 and you've got the God of this Age 2 Corinthians 4 now interestingly Genesis refers to him simply as serpent but the Hebrew word used here Nash indicates that he's actually a supernatural being there's a lot going on with the word it can mean a serpent it can mean a Divine Throne guardian and it can mean having a shining bronze or fiery appearance and this is I'm quoting Heiser here and here in Genesis all three of these meanings are at play so we want to read simplistically right so I'm not quoting anymore I'm just talking we want to read simplistically like we just want to see a serpent as a type of snake and it's kind of a weird thing why is the snake talking right but but again if you're an ancient reader and you're looking at this Hebrew word Nash you're instantly thinking three images in your mind right and two of those images specifically are Supernatural and the other one could be natural or Supernatural and then I go on in the book in the ancient year Eastern world world the Nash was a symbol for a Divine Throne Guardian Genesis 3 puts this Guardian in Eden which can be considered the temple home of Yahweh the first image of the holy place where God's Throne resides this means the serpent was near God's throne and responsible to guard it we can see how The Shining firy element fits in as well when we look at a Divine throne room scene in Isaiah 6 it describes Angelic beings guarding the throne room of God using the Hebrew word sarif which can refer to a kind of serpent or a fiery serpent shape we find this in numbers 218 and then you get some interesting details in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 and I'll just summarize this and then we'll get into the actual rebellion in this it tells the origin story of this Serpent of Satan and in doing so the text says that at what at one point again actually very important detail that it's a prophecy it's a vision of a human King but it's describing a supernatural being notice the conflation once again of Earthly and spiritual like even the literary style of the narrative is is is constructed to consistently put this in front of us like hey by the way we're talking about an Earthly King but don't ever forget there's a supernatural reality as well there's a spiritual reality as well and so in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 in both places this serpent this nkos he's being described as a shining or bright star ties back to the serpent of Genesis 3 and Shining bronze or fiery image which is the meaning of the Hebrew word for Nash in Ezekiel 28:4 each offer of prophecy about a human King but inside of those prophecies is another layer that tells the background story of Satan's downfall and it's specifically because the serpent looks at the throne room of God and out of curiosity wonders huh what it would it be like for me to sit there and then because of pride in the serpent in the Serpent's heart he goes into Rebellion it's interesting Ezekiel 281 12-17 this is the description of this Satan of the nkos it says that God covered him in precious gems which signified special priority and privilege is the anointed Guardian cherub this is verse 14 and then in verse 17 this is what God says of him he says your heart became proud because of your beauty for the sake of your Splendor you corrupted your wisdom do you think Joel I think some some people like when they they do read Genesis like a science book it says you the serpent you are curse you will crawl on your belly is that oh yeah oh yeah so you're you're taking you're taking me here so um okay before I get into that let me just let me just some connection for us here always reading ahead Nate always read ahe I've got I've got a fan Theory actually about that it's going to be more speculative but let me go to what I can like argue theologically scripturally scholarly and then and then we're going to get into that so first I want us to pay attention very closely to the pattern here that the serpent sees something desires something and decides to take something this pattern so there so we shouldn't be surprised when the serpent the Nash presents these things to Adam and Eve you see the serpent is just playing out his own sin story uh with humanity and so he sees he desires in his heart and the thing that he desires is not something for him to have and then because he can't have it he's he wants to take it of his own will of his own Force this is like the Unholy Trinity of Pride that's being played out so this is what Eve does Eve sees the fruit she desires what the fruit could possess and could gain her but she's not supposed to have it but she and Adam together they were together they take of it see desire and take this translates really well to our own lives how many times do we see something we desire it but the root of our desire is actually Unholy because it's not something that was even given to us and then we decide to take it of our own will so it's like David it's like B Sheba and David oh listen it's actually even more it's actually more than b Sheba and David this is actually a hyperlink to Genesis 6 in Genesis 6 it says the son of sons of God which we know the Ben Elohim are Angelic beings we don't even have to argue that they saw they desired and they took the daughters of men which is why and I'm going ahead here into the second Cosmic rebellion and we'll get into that but this is also why I believe that this is actually the origin story of human sex trafficking I actually think that in Genesis 6 these sons of God see they want to take they want to they want to take they desire and they take and I think that the fathers here and this is actually something that Tim helped me to frame a little bit more uh detail with his view even though we differentiate a little bit on this I do think that they offer up the daughters for alliances and I actually think that what what these patriarchal fathers are believing is that this Alliance will grant them something good you know and so they give up their daughters but the language of this is forceful it's not something that I don't think that it's something the daughters like oh yeah absolutely this sounds like a great idea you know it's something that they're forced into this is just modern this is just human sex trafficking that's kind of what it is so what happens in Genesis 3 is you've got the sea taken the sea desire and take Adam and Eve uh do do this they participate and now you've got Cosmic Rebellion you've got the serpent the Nash who has gone into Rebellion which by the way what are the Angelic beings that are placed in Eden to protect it afterwards cherubim with a flaming sword with a flaming sword okay why do Adam and Eve Not freak out when the serpent shows up because they're used been there I might I might even suggest maybe just maybe this is one of those Cher beam actually that was a guardian Throne Room Cher beam and so kind of like high priority VIP access you know it's like everybody kind of knows when homeboy like rolling through and so I think in one sense there's like oh yeah like we kind of know um who they're not surprised they're not caught off guard so the problem isn't what they look like what the serpent says or or suggests sorry it's not what the serpent appears like the problem is what the serpant says and suggests it's not about outward it's about inward this is another biblical Paradigm this is another biblical theme you know the Lord looks on what's on the inside and what's on the outside and yet often we're trying to look on the outside like oh yeah this is great well no if the inside is corrupt the outside is absolutely corrupt you know we just can't see it so now this question what's going on with the serpent in Genesis 3:15 you have what's referred to as the Proto angelon this is the first glimmer of the Gospel Proto from protos which is uh first and then ion gelion which is a militaristic Greek word that is describing a proclamation of Victory so where Joel do you get this idea of the first glimmer of the Gospel in Genesis 3:15 it's this prophetic image of the seed it's a singular seed so we know it's actually talking about Jesus who is going to crush the head of the serpent but the serpent is going to bite the heel of the one that that crushes him right this is the first glimmer of the Gospel this is what the C this is foretelling foreshadowing the cross what's super fascinating and now Nate I'm going to be very clear I've been like this is my training as a theologian and and Scholar like I'm going to move from what I believe I can absolutely argue definitively with the text into what I'm going to call Joel speculation so I'm moving into speculatory territory it's a little bit uncomfortable uncomfortable for me to do this but you guys have somehow given me the courage to to do this the more it's taken me my third appearance to really be able to do this my man let's go I I think there's more going on with the serpent this is my spec speculation y'all I can't say this say this stronger y I actually think that when all the animals are presented in front of Adam to be a suitable Helper and a right that Hebrew word a that's like counterpart that is the same word that's used of of God who comes to the aid of Israel throughout the Old Testament like this is not like this Homemaker like servant in the house this is a fellow conquering king or queen that's the idea so I think this position is actually pretty significant you know I think there's a reason why CS Lewis gets this idea of talking animals and I think this is also why potentially Adam and Eve are not even freaked out when that when this being talks it like talking is just normal right so fascinating maybe an act of decreation the impact of sin on these animals is actually the loss of the of an intelligence of their ability to communicate in such a way that would have been normative which I'm as I'm thinking out loud makes a lot of sense because then it actually imic or it mimics and uh recapitulates or fortells the Genesis 11 Tower of Babel disunified to the top it's kind of the seen The Bachelor you know like who's going to get the rose type of deal and I think the Serpent's actually at the very top of the list I think the Serpent's like I'm about to win this thing you know like I'm going to be the suitable helper for Adam and at the very end it's like no suitable helper was found well if you're the serpent you're like well this sucks like you know like you go and so I actually think there's this Pride here as well like I deserve this opportunity and notice the the language that Yahweh uses the god uses of the serpent that it was craftier it was cunning it was wise like all these things make it a perfect opport right here's what I think speculatively is happening speculatively I actually think that this uh spiritual being creates an Unholy alliance with this animal and I think we have inhabitation I think we have inhabitation we talked about this in Costa Rica like AST Astro like astral projection yeah yeah I actually I do I I I kind of and here's why and here's the one kind of piece of data that really like makes me even feel comfortable saying this out loud specular ly is why in the world would God give a consequence that would go on in perpetuity to the serpent as a serpent purely physically as an animal like it would be it feels like to me unjust exactly of God to give a consequence to this animal and all of the animals that come after in this genealogical line unless there was a root sin that is passed on to Generations after this is the sin that is given to Adam and Eve that now is passed on to all generations after this is the sin that's given to the serpent right and all the Fallen Angels so why would in this oneoff case it be then given to the snake as a serpent animal that is then it would feel unjust unless there was a reason un unless this serpent is actually guilty of some type of animal Rebellion that actually took place as well and in light of that the serpent is has to crawl on its belly and the consequence of that is to eat the dust well where does Humanity come from it comes from dust right yeah right so you have all these things so thanks for entertaining my speculation there well no I mean like we see Jesus do that he curses the fig tree right like why would he do that why would Jesus curse a tree that's just where my mind's going and I like I like the 4D view because a lot of our show we try Luke and I try to say like look you have you have all these you have the four dimension and you know our 3D World kind of colliding and if you look back historically you can kind of see they all interact with each other yep and sometimes we just have this myopic view of oh no like I'm just looking at it from Strictly a human perspective and then nothing really makes a lot of sense you know but we Luke and I are always trying to bring in like okay well let's think about these topics from from from all Realms how can we understand this like if we were an Angelic being and we were looking at this story how would we write it how would we think about it how would we see it yeah so I love that this to build just to keep building on this idea of animals and all this other stuff and again it's just this is kind of speculation I'm trying to connect some dots and maybe somebody has written a dissertation on this um if so let me know I'd love to read it but you know this this starts to make sense of balam's donkey the donkey starts like sees something that's clearly Supernatural with the angel that's in the way and like you know God opens the mouth of the donkey to be able to speak well well where did that come from unless maybe animal already maybe pre pre-fall prelapsarian they have the ability to communicate they have the ability to talk and then the presence of animals in the new Heavens the new Earth why are there animals in the new heavens and the new Earth and what is the primary means of authentic relationship well authentic relationship happens through communication so is it plausible that there could be authentic relation like like I have a dog my dog is a German Shepherd I swear I swear this dog knows my Moe of feeling without me even saying or doing or acting at all I wake up in the morning I'm stressed out this German Shepherd is like like comforting me you know like like where does this come from is the question that we're at and this is humility of just being able be like huh maybe it's it's this pride and this stringent like they're just animals they don't have soul like I'm just like man that's probably not very fair because because then why would God save all the animals at the flood why not just create a whole bunch of new animals right why save animals in the flood why why seem to have a responsibility why tell Adam to name animals we don't name things that we don't love right you know so the first consequence in Eden is the shedding of an innocent life well what is that innocent life it's an animal the very beings the very things that Adam and Eve were supposed to protect Steward and take care of as a casualty for their sin become the first innocent victim right and so you have kind of like this this kind of weight that's going on and so and we will see that Rebellion has come compound impact wow the Rebellion is between two people but there's never been a rebellion in human history that I'm aware of that does not always have a compound impact it always impacts and affects innocent people I think about Job 12 as well this idea that when God speaking says but ask the animals they'll teach you or the birds in the sky they'll tell you or speak to the Earth it will teach you let the fish of the sea inform you there's something interesting there definitely something there plus I have a dog as well we have we have we have three aie Carl is a Frenchy and he's the Pinnacle of sort of God's animal creation okay um but it's I think you're right Luke because if you read it one way it's just a snake and if you read it the other way it's just a it's just a a spiritual being right but you but when you combine it all it's both and then as Joel said too that's like the view of the of the of the authorship is right is that that these things aren't separated it has this is this is what we're talking about right it's this idea of this physical and then also Cosmic or Supernatural being one and the same and I might remember Heiser talk talking about this and being like you can't separate them they didn't separate them but we are in this Paradigm where we have and we've also divorced everything from each other but this is not the way that they that their Paradigm was shaped or the way they thought or the way they perceived creation and and the heavenlies right there was there was no separation and it's interesting too because Eden itself is this convolu right and and I think we it's it's this this space where you the natural and and the supernatural overlap yes right it it and so you have it's I love this man so you know so then there's Dave Matthews song is that what you're singing singing some Dave Matthews no space between space between I love I love Dave Matthews um D DMB I bet you n can play all on guitar I love it so okay so so you've got you've got Genesis 3 and you've got Cosmic and and Earthly and you see you see them together so what's the next next one the next one is Genesis 6 right absolutely we skip over six nobody wants to De it with Genesis 6 1 right it's like this is uncomfortable well we do and so I won't I won't take as much time but I do want to deal with a couple things that I think maybe help like I want to be like like practically helpful in some of these conversations that um you guys are having with your friends and so it's like hey in Genesis 6 right we've got these sons of God and and and then you've got a geographical location well the book of like Enoch it lets us know the the impact of this entire situation is is Mount Herman right so think about this in Genesis 1 or Genesis 1 2 and 3 you have a mountain and that mountain is identic so we can call it the mount you know the edenic mountain this Cosmic mountain and God Is So committed to his household not being corrupted that he seals up the house he's like corruption get out seal up the house protect it but keep it safe and I would argue that Jesus is actually building the city that's why we get in Revelation that this city garden the Garden City the there's something happening right now I tend to think it might also be the place that the deceased that when they step into the Unseen realm they actually stepping into Eden like I actually think it's a it's an actual location it's a geographical spatial location which well it's Paradise it's Paradise Christ exactly yeah um it's a garden par so I actually so I actually think it's a little bit I actually think it's even more than that I'm actually working on silent Saturday right now project on silent Saturday so I actually think that and this could be a whole different episode that we do I actually think that what happens is Jesus does descend to Hades he descends to the dead and the reason why in Matthew you've got this weird passage about all these saints that just show up in the streets right is because it's a transitionary period where once they were held by the gates of Hades but now they've been transitioned into and Jesus's ushering them into his place of residence his home and where is his home Garden exactly so I actually think there's a and this now makes sense of Colossians 13 that that we have been transferred from the domain the Greek word there for domain it has in mind a malevolent uh Supernatural entity or being place and location so we have been transfered the domain of Darkness into the Kingdom of Light I actually think that this is a descriptive verse of what took place when Jesus descends into Hades and so now we don't have to deal with that like we don't have to go to the gates of Hades now when we when we cross over for lack of better like you know when that happens we go to Eden like we go to paradise parades so we go to the Garden the Garden City which is going to come back so you've got the mountain in Eden which is protected and Sanctified and kept holy so much so that the garden CH cheram are placed outside of it and and it goes away but then you have a ju to position this is crazy you've got a reversal of events that takes place so if in Genesis 3 you've got the protection of a holy place in Genesis 6 you've got the corruption of a holy place or a Corruption of a GE desecration where is this man Herman man Herman right so in Genesis 6 you've got this story like the Genesis 6 we're told the sons of God now you can I I have on my YouTube channel a quick video on like hey here are the three reasons why we shouldn't hold a set. view it doesn't make sense we probably shouldn't hold the Divine uh sunship view or uh a divinized Earthly King ruler View kind of doesn't make sense the third view is the most coherent view which is a supernatural realm view right and so again you can go look at look at pun look at Punk Joel's come all the way around come Punk Jo all the way around he's got he's got videos about it now okay I'm not sou Mike Mike's grinning Mike's grinning he's like he's like I knew all the way then it was just a matter of time gotta yeah I've been got said that no more and it just for a lot of reasons right it doesn't make sense like one of the ideas is like the Elohim or human judges well show me one one place textual evidence where we find that the Guardians of Israel were you know the judges of Israel were actually like referenced as Elohim over the Nations you just don't have that it's just non non-existent so you've got all kinds of other issues but I do want to deal with one that I actually think this was the one that hied me up that hick me up is that the right word I think I'm made up a word this was a hiccup for me I I I combined tenses of speech it was a it was a singular hick so it was a half it was a half it just got the just got and then I like don't hiccup anymore and I got right out of it and this this is the one that really got me yeah because again I'm like okay does the text say it and so typically so like in Genesis 6 we're told they that they're The Offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men are these Nephilim right these hybrid kind of beings so the primary objection to this type of cohabitation of a supernatural being is the fact that stated that Angels or supernatural beings Spiritual Beings can't reproduce they can't reproduce and the defense for this is Matthew 22 and 33 like verse 33 and and on now I'm going to quote Mike on this because this is one of the things that Mike said to me that I'm like oh yeah Precision in how we read the Bible is actually really important sometimes we conflate what something says to what it actually doesn't even imply like it's it's right so here's one this is what Mike says and this is an un R he says the text does not say Angels cannot have sexual interourse it just says that they don't they don't now this is actually important in the context of this passage and the context of this passage is talking about the escaton it's talking about the new Heavens the new Earth well why not because when you're in the new Heavens the new Earth there's no more need to multiply the like the idea of procreation is is non-existent you know in the new heavens and earth Bas based off of what Jesus says and so this actually makes sense and so the issue that we have today is in part an issue with a postmodern mind and a demythologizing perspective which that by itself is super odd right because Christianity literally is held together by this one core belief that Jesus was God is God who became man died was buried was resurrected on the third day ascended to the right hand of the father and is right now both God and human in the Heavenly places tell me what about that is not both Cosmic and Earthly that whole thing is nothing that whole thing is right so again I'm just like okay what let's just kind of keep everything in perspective here and so like Mike goes on and he says this that the objection is odd since the interpretation is actually less dramatic than the Incarnation of Jesus then he kind of goes on and so there's a couple different options here but all of these options are really important because the supernatural reading of it makes sense of the Nephilim and we know the Nephilim are the gibber these Giants the subian actually kind of takes a nod at this idea go ahead I can always tell when n he goes he does he does this thing I just know I'm like I know I have he did thisum in Costa Rica multiple times so now I know it I know he's got something sethite angels are asexual you know can't mate don't want to mate probably even Spiritual Beings don't have a physical body and I love the I love these conversations cuz they overlap and this is just an ongoing problem with people especially coming into our space and listening to our our show the alien narrative the UFO narrative it's all it all it's all the same problem for them but if angels are shape shifters which I don't believe they are and we've talked about this in in depth you don't have Cosmic DNA involved they would have our DNA we wouldn't have hybrids you need two different mixtures to have a hybrid to have Giants to have Kim all this stuff MH how do you get if you believe that Angels aren't physical that they have that they that our Realms overlap where does the Angelic Cosmic DNA come from how's that possible yeah that's to me kind of pushes us into this blend of the two they are physical but they also aren't like us exactly and you we find evidence of this because you've got the uh the picture uh with Abram right you've got these three Angelic beings that are human like they they come in human form and they eat well how do human how do non right like just like astral projected how do they eat how do they eat how do they how do they and then I the biggest one for me is the resurrected Christ the resur resurrected Christ is eating he's walking he's talking he's hanging out he's letting Thomas touch weird parts of his body that have been like pierced like you're like well how does how does all of this happen so the so the there's clearly some combination some potential of mixture so why is it that the Nephilim and this is the other really big thing that I've talked about and we could do whole things on this later is that the Demons of the New Testament are not they are not not the sons of God of the Old Testament so the Demons of the New Testament are the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim well how do you get disembodied spirits of the Nephilim unless you have a Unholy mixture why are they destined to roam the Earth because they are an Unholy mixture the the this the part of them that is spiritual that they inherited from their fathers right that part it I think it drives them crazy so I think that they are now roaming the world they've already experienced what it felt like to be embodied now it makes sense why they're trying to embody other people it makes sense why they're trying to and they would rather go into pigs they'd rather be in something rather than nothing and they're not building UFOs is what we say you know yeah that's a crazy logical leap to say they they're trying just to get into a a human a very basic they're scrambling is what I'm saying then they're not crafting advanced technology that just doesn't make sense at all but that's a whole another story but I love that thank you for kind of clarifying because it just seems to never end in in in the arguments in the comment section yeah and and I think too like why why is this Cosmic rebell how is this both cos how's this both Earthly and Cosmic right because now you've got these hybrid Nephilim that have descendants they have children and and so you have this genetic thing that seems to be happening where you're like you're losing some of that genetic kind of Purity or whatever you call it of these original beings and Nate you and I have this conversation in Costa Rica of and we still have evidence it seems like of of genetic breakthrough like maybe these are recessive traits where every now and then you've got this breakthrough and you get kind of closer to what it would have looked like and you've got these larger beings this is one of the places where Mike and I would have probably departed a little bit more CU I'm a little bit more fine with like these types of things Mike would have been like yeah the Giants are probably between six and eight feet tall you know and you know we've talked in detail before like well wait we've got these bones of like the ginormous you know giant type beings and so for me it doesn't bother me as much because it's like you can have genetic breakthroughs you can have anomalies we see this all the time in all kinds of other places and so why wouldn't we see it even with this but the main issue here and this is where I want to connect it back into the biblical text is these Nephilim who are referred to as gibber who are connected to the anakim and then the raim the anakim are the descendants of these people so they've got this they're like this warrior class kingly class they can take and desire they do whatever they want and then they're part of the rfim these like these kings that lived at this time these Warlords that just destroyed everything around them there is a reason the postevent of Genesis 6 is a flood there's a reason why it starts with Genesis 6 and the story of the sons of God and Nephilim and then all of a sudden you get to the flood the flood is yahweh's desire his design to start to deal with the problem of the Nephilim because God cares about his human family and he sees these beings as an Unholy threat to his human this is why the command for Joshua and for Moses was to obliterate them it was to obliterate them because they're going to consistently cause Havoc sin chaos perversions all these types of things they come out of the Genesis 6 event and and it says that the Nephilim were there before and they were there after the flood now we can go into a lot of different details about the nature of the flood I don't want to get people upset but one of the things that I think people should take into serious consideration is the idea that the flood was in my opinion probably a localized flood right like you it is very possible to have localized catastrophic catastrophic floods over the world and it' not be like the whole world is submerged this brings coherence to how some of these Nephilim and how there seems to be these other humans that survive you know post flood and and there's Hebrew language here when it says that the whole earth the ett the I'm forgetting the Hebrew phrase butet is the land the the whole earth when it says the whole land is covered that same phrase is used in other places where it's exaggerative language where clearly it's not talking about the whole it's just talking about what is known as the whole it'd be like right now like I'm gonna I'm gonna crush the pizza like I'm not gonna actually crush the pizza right I'm gonna eat the pizza it's it's exaggerative terms um and so that's taking place as well and then the last thing seen Luke Crush some pizza though yeah that doesn't surprise me very fair Mexican food is really above that but okay tacos I've seen him crush the tacos Luke Fair Luke does that fair enough crush the bourbon and you don't crush that you you just sip it it's an art form meant to be enjoyed so the the um and then just I'll go back to and I I think this is important see desire take this is what's happening Genesis 6 so what is the Genesis of these Cosmic rebellions these Earthly Cosmic rebellions I'm arguing for see desire and take at the core of this is idolatry and this is some of the stuff I get into in my book where it's like this this thought of I deserve this is is actually a byproduct of Pride and what Pride does is it blinds you this is the The Pride promises you Clarity but it only delivers confusion and it only blinds you and makes you self-centered so my kids they're like well I deserve the new um Apple what is that thing the thing that you put on your face Apple Vision Apple Vision the app so my kids are like Dad I deserve Apple V Apple Vision I'm like excuse me you deserve what what what makes life what has happened in your life to make you believe that you deserve something and here's what it is they've been blinded it's like they think that they deserve the house that we live in they deserve the food that they they deserve I'm like you do realize that you don't work and you don't get a paycheck and you don't pay the mortgage of this house like you are not you don't deserve anything you're dependent hold on your parents for everything you know and so it's like this constant fight against this thought that I deserve that I I am owed this the gift of humility is it actually helps you regain self-awareness without being entrapped in self-obsession because the more you're self-obsessed the more you lose sight of what actual truth is what actual Clarity is and and then everybody becomes pawns you know and you're willing to sacrifice anybody at any time this is what happens with the nikash this is what happens with these sons of God this is what the Book of Enoch it talks about like hey we know like this is not going to go well for any of us so let's make a let's make a bond right and if one of us goes down we're all going down I'm like think about the absurdity of even making that type of Covenant oath with each other like I am willing to lose like I'm willing to play it's kind of like LeBron James you know like I'm willing to play in the finals just to lose like why would you even play momm I'm messing with y'all please don't if you want you go back to unforg do I think about Unforgiven do CL deserves got nothing to do with it right you know it's your idea is fascinating too like the the idea of swearing and oath for this desire that's gone into entitlement to deserving this Angelic H Human family that they they believe they've come to the point blinded by their pride they deserve this and then and it is back and I love this cuz it does go back to the Garden right it's like the idea behind that is God's holding out on you why do he tell you not to eat that yeah don't you know that like why would why would he do that why would he hold that why would he keep that from you yeah I have I have another I have another speculative theory on that too that I can give you because we're already going to go all the way there on it why is it why is it that these um Angelic beings these rebellious sons of God once part of the Divine console why why do they go after this hybrid kind of idea and why today is the enemy I feel like so adamant on destroying families marriages is going after like all of these issues that we have in our world why is that and I wonder this is speculation but I think it makes sense to me at least in my brain that in the same way that there was there there was Freedom within the context of limits for Adam and Eve and Eden you can do all these things but you can't do this I I have this suspicion that God gave the same thing to the Angelic beings hey you can do all these things you're going to be my my messengers you're going to have a a place in the Divine conso the one thing you're not going to have are your own children like you don't need to have your own children here's the one thing that you and then can you imagine being these Angelo beings being the sons of God that shot for Joy job talks talks about this and they're celebrating they see all this then you have a subset of them they're like wait a minute why do Adam and Eve why do the human children of God get to multiply but we don't that's unfair that's not fair and this I think becomes the Genesis potentially for all like this Genesis 6 issue the you know the Genesis 3 issue with the nikash and so I think that's that's probably what's what's happening [Music] [Music] that's the Forbidden that was the forbidden fruit for that yeah right is it I always think you know it's interesting how it's it's always a Twist it's always a Twist of the Gospel it's always a Twist of the story it's never it's never something that's flat out completely opposite and I think something that Luke and I have discovered on this is it is is two kingdoms and they each have their own moral code it's it's a battle of two moralities it's framed that way we know it's light and dark but the way it's presented is no this is a better version of this good version right yes yes yeah like the the idea of corruption itself is the idea of corruption itself is taking something that's very good and inverting it from the inside so that it still presents itself as good but if it presents itself as good but it's bad on the inside it's it's rotten it's rotten all and so you know it's kind there's a some song about like the first the first bite or something like that but anyways it's it's that same that same idea kmen is it Carmen song no it's first I think it's first cut First Cut Is first cut maybe I'm conflating I do this all the time I think you're right I think you're right I conflate stuff all the time kmen Dave Matthews Cheryl Crow covering some ground here some here um all right the last one the third one and then uh and then like what is happening so two rebellions we've done Eden we've done right and we had we've had this common theme so far to see to desire and to take and then we have Cosmic geography the Tak place as well one mountain that was taken care of held Sanctified and holy Another Mountain on Mount Herman which was corrupt and then you get into a third place in this third place you've got a problem because there are no mountains and as our friend Tim albino would say that's a big deal you know he love you buddy um and and so this is actually a big deal I wrote about this in my dissertation so I'll just read a little bit about this it says as noted previously I talked about this this Tower right why do they build this Tower they build this Tower because they're in the plains of shanar and the plains have no mountains this the tower is a common mythical symbol for the Mountain of God on which primeval the Primeval Garden sits and in constructing a tower Humanity actually manifests the desire to recover their original home with God to Return to Eden however look at the language the desires of the people do not seem to be pure the inclusion of the phrase make a name for ourselves alongside the desire to build a tower with its head in the heavens seems to indicate pride and an act of rebellion the Hebrew word for Tower is actually an elevated structure that was typically used for protection the Tower of Babel was a zigurat which comes from an Acadian word that translates as Temple Tower so the fact that people are building essentially a temple should cause us to pause as we reflect on the temple being the deity's Abode in other words the temple is where the deity has his home following this thought the Tower of Babel was given the name ataman meaning the house of the foundation of Heaven and Earth the people attempt to build a temple tower that would serve as the house of the deity an Old Testament scholar Clifford commenting on the nature of the function of the zigarette says it was more than merely a passageway from high from higher to lower Temple rather the zigarette itself was a dwelling so to summarize all of this is you've got the ples you've got this Tower that's constructed and the reason that they're constructing this Tower is because one they see that there are Plains and no mountains to they desire to um be with God or to force God to come down so three they they decide to take it into their own hands with the construction of a temple Tower and in so doing the exercise pride and hubris and then that that phrase where in Genesis 11:7 where it says the Lord says let us go it's again there's a plurality here and it's not talking about the Trinity the let us language here is not trinitarian the Hebrew grammar does not allow for it it's it's the council it's the Divine counsel of of Yahweh so in Genesis 126 where God says let us what you could literally have done is and I think this is probably what happened it's just a copy and paste you're copying and pasting the Hebrew of 126 and you're putting it right into Genesis 11:7 so you see here a Divine councel scene now the Rebellion so remember Genesis we have to read Genesis 101 and 12 together a lot of times you read Genesis 11 by itself or you read Genesis 101 when you strip Genesis 12 out we need to read these three chapters together Genesis 10 is the table of Nations which lets us know the people have land language and com commonality families and then Genesis 11 is this Rebellion Genesis 12 is the abrahamic Covenant so Genesis 11 the consequence of this Rebellion is the diversification of tongues the loss of the one language pushes everybody back into their own family kind of Niche their own family households because they have a language from Genesis 10 so that's the only way they can communicate so God still has his way see the PE same thing with Eden Genesis 3 same thing with Genesis 6 same thing now in Genesis 11 even in the midst of Humanity's Rebellion yahweh's purpose is still going to happen the question is are we going to be in rebellion and take the hard way or are we going to be in obedience and take the way of Jesus right and so here what happens for the people is they they are now spread out they're spread out in their family isolated kind of people and in so doing what ends up happening we have to read Genesis 11 in letter of Deuteronomy 328 and9 Deuteronomy 328 and9 referred to by Heiser and others as the Deuteronomy 32 worldview Let's us know the aftermath of Genesis 11 that these um these nations have been disinherited by God God keeps uh Jacob Israel as his allotted inheritance and he for a Time disinherits the nations of the world and he gives an allotment of these nations to the sons of God to the Ben Elohim and in so doing this is stewardship stewardship the goal is stewardship protect them take take care of them until I bring them all back into the family well where's I bring them all back into the family this is Genesis 12 the abrahamic Covenant where does Abraham come from he comes from ER of the calans where's ER of the calans ER of the calans is Babel it's it's roughly the area of Babel so literally in Genesis 12 God goes into the epicenter of rebellion and he picks one family draws them out to himself and he says hey by the way you are going to be the means by which all the families of the world were brought back together the problem is and we find this in Deuteronomy 4 19-20 and elsewhere that these sons of God go into the third Cosmic rebellion and this third Cosmic Rebellion is in instead of stewarding the Nations they elicit the worship of the Nations this is the Genesis this is the origin story of the Gods of the nations of the Old Testament this is where we get Baal this is where we get moak this is where we get ashra this is where we get all of these Old Testament deities it's not that they're non-existent it's just that they're not the they're non Supreme they're not Yahweh himself and they have gone into rebellion and you've got these passages where it talks about these are idols and and don't you know don't um don't worship the idols and or even in the Old Testament there's like these Pages like they're dumb Idols they don't speak they don't write so what what is what isn't that what Elijah say like are are your gods in the B that's a funny one yeah that's the that's that's Mont Carmel with uh with Bal is he is he uh is he off the side of the road you know going to the bathroom like relieving himself like he must be busy is he asleep right this is an important distinction again as you're having conversations with people what these phrases are taking into consideration this thought and this idea that the deities need to have a home they have to have a home and so the home would have been these carved images that they would have made there would actually be a ceremony and I think you guys have talked about this before where in the ceremony you would the deity would come through the mouth of the carved Idol you know and that was the the residence so you could have the idol destroyed but that didn't destroy the god it just destroyed its home and so and so there's a distinction here where actually this a poic it's it's this like hey use some common sense if the deity needs a home in order to survive and needs humans to be met is it actually the god of Yahweh like is this actually a supreme god and notice the language of of Yahweh who needs no home he doesn't need a Dwelling Place he's not served by human hands as if he right it is directly in comparison to these gods of the Nations and so then you have this this third this third Rebellion that takes place and this sets the stage for the rest of the Old Testament and then in Psalm 82 this is the Judgment scene the Judgment scene for all three rebellions takes place in Psalm 82 this is what it says that God Elohim stands in the Divine assembly so singular Elohim who stands in the Divine assembly he pronounces judgment amongst the gods this is plural Elohim the grammar allows for this because you've got the singular in the beginning who stands in front of a group of people well so the second instance has to be plural because the first is talking about standing in in front of a group of people so you have the presence of two Elohim how long look at the language how long will you judge unjustly this is the language of Deuteronomy 32 8-9 and show partiality to the wicked say la provide Justice for the needy and the father this is what they were supposed to do you're supposed to provide Justice for the needy and the fatherless you're supposed to uphold the rights of the oppressed and the destitute you're supposed to rescue the poor and the needy we could think Micah 68 here you're supposed to save them from the power of the wicked and then this is like Yahweh on a throne giving this command he's like they do not know he's talking about these Elohim they do not know or understand they wander in darkness all the foundations of the Earth are shaken and he says to them I said you are Elohim you are all sons of the most high however this is the consequence you will die like humans and fall like any other ruler so this right here this one sentence makes it absolutely impossible for these sons of gods to be human rulers it makes no sense for human rulers to have the consequence that all humans already have which is to die but but a spiritual Supernatural Cosmic being now this makes a lot of sense you'll fall like any other and then this is the most fascinating thing you guys at the very end there's this little parenthetic thought and and I I talked about this in Costa Rica and I want you to think about the scene where you've got Yahweh on a throne you've got in front of him this Divine counsel and all these Elohim are there and then you have a being that's off stage that's just listening that's watching this entire thing right at the very end he says Rise Up Elohim singular Elohim look at the language judge the Earth for all the nations belong to you who is this Elohim I believe this is the pre-incarnate Christ the angel this is Jesus and here's what Jesus does Jesus is the solution to each of these Cosmic rebellions [Music] Jesus is the solution to each of these Cosmic PLS [Music] Jesus is the greater Adam that's awesome right Jesus conquers and vanquishes the evil perpetrated by the nephlim and the sons of God of Genesis 6 to deal with the division of the families in Genesis 11 Jesus sends his Spirit to reunite the families of God and Jesus on the cross brings judgment upon the sons of God Jesus is the answer to these three Cosmic rebellions and and now when you see it in that narrative form it's like oh man this starts to really make sense at least to me yeah yeah love that too yeah and we all kind of pick up on little pieces of that you know in these spaces you wish you could just kind of shake some of the guys that are so close to that you know they're building these uh narratives out of just Little fragments of ancient history like the Ancient Aliens and the Graham hancocks and all these guys it's just like they're so close so close they're so close to like all these rebellions and and the technology and what they were trying to do and how they were going about exercising that re rebellion and just missing the central piece yeah that's the the most important piece like the the thing which all all hinges on right and I love the way you put that early Joel with with you and Tim it just hinges on the same thing it's the idea you keep the main thing the main thing right and and and the the main thing is is is Christ and I and I love that I had actually even heard the Divine somebody too explained all the way heard it I mean I remember reading all unseen realm but the reminder that Yahweh goes to the side and says you know it's it's you're going to do this and and then he yeah this is Ephesians 2 Ephesians 28-22 that you who are once outside are brought in that Jesus uh he crushes he tears down the dividing wall of hostility Ephesians 3:4 he talks about the mystery is now known what is the mystery the mystery is Gentile inclusion well what in the world do you get Gentiles in the first place you get Gentiles from Genesis 11 and Deuteronomy 32 8-9 this is the first separation of humanity I mean the all of these rebellions all of these these moments are telegraphing the need for the cosmic Christ it's it's telegraphing the need for the Ascension for the king of the cosmos to take what is rightfully his to bring his family back together and you know y like it makes a difference it really does make a difference do you think the decision to scatter the Nations was more a judgment upon the Elohim or the human or humankind I think I think in that Rebellion it was more on humankind I think this was like hey you've really jacked this one up and and so there's got to be a consequence to sin that's the other pattern so but I'm not going to and this is this is another pattern that's that permeates throughout it that God gives a consequence but he also gives comfort in let of the consequence so in Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve are sent out God clothes them in skins remember they have fig leaves but God clothes them in skins cuz Adam and Eve this is what sin does to you right I talk about this in my book sin blinds you from the consequence of your sin so that when Adam and Eve sinned they're like I'm going to live in Eden forever well no you're not you have no context of life outside of Eden you've got no context for storms and and the winter and the cold like and so God does so he gives them comfort in the same way in Genesis 11 I think that God gives these Ben Elohim these sons of God as a means of comfort to the steward to direct them to to be Guardians over these nations and again depending on how you view everything chronologically I think Yahweh is kind of like by the way don't make the same knucklehead mistakes that these sons of God of gen the six made because we know from first Peter from second Peter and Jude that those sons of God are locked up in Tartarus so the sons of God of Genesis 11 Deuteronomy 328 and9 are different Cosmic beings than those of Genesis 6 those in Genesis 6 are in Tardis and they they're in Hades so when Jesus on what people often refer to silent Saturday I don't think it's silent Saturday I think Jesus proclaimed the gospel he's announcing his victory in Hades and Peter and Judah it talks specifically about in the presence of these Angelic beings right in the in the presence of these angels who are held in bondage well where did these angels come from they came from Genesis 6 this is their situation so the Dy 328 and9 Cosmic beings are different they're actually still out there like they're still the gods of the Nations I just think that they've changed their masks and now instead of I think they're still potentially NA national Patron deities but they're also working in systems and structures as well and so and then Psalm 82 and the cross this is another really big question that often comes up is well can Cosmic beings continue to go into Rebellion today my answer is no I think Psalm 82 is the is the is the definitive moment and here's the deal what Cosmic being in their right mind would have witnessed the impact and the consequence of Jesus on the cross watch him Ascend into heaven and think yeah I'm still going to make my bed with Lucifer with Satan and those idiots that that screw this up like it's in it's it's illogical like why would they ever ever do that and so I think no I think s made to you and particularly this this pivotal moment on the cross sets into motion final judgment for the sons of God that are rebellious but then also continues to keep a path open for Humanity to turn in Repentance to Christ Mike D baby there it ises there thanks Joel dude I love this I uh so you know Joel your book is out yeah and and I want want to give I want to give everybody who's been you know along those ride with us on blurry creatures knows Joel's been a repeat guest if you're in Costa Rica you got to spend some time in In the Flesh with with this wonderful man and and his his amazing wife and you know you've been such a so good to our show and so good to us personally so we're we're grateful and with your book out we want to give a chance for people to to point them to where to find it and some of what you've heard today and actually a lot of what you've heard in Joel's episodes across really is a lot of the sort of maybe the big picture stuff that that Joel's talking about in in this book um the book course called The Hidden peace well that's what I was going to say Luke is because like I can see how you've kind of drawn it all back to let's talk about humility let's talk about yes the sort of the impetus of all of these rebellions is that moment when you decide no I want I'm going to see and take and I I get it I get it now I get get where your mind was going yeah well I mean yeah if pride is the poison then the antidote is humility pride is a seductive sin humility is God's grace to overcome it share with us again where they can find a book the book is is everywhere um you can go to Amazon U I'd love for you guys to to grab a copy uh and like I said I think from a very practical standpoint grab a second copy and hand if you've got one friend right now that you're just like man I so desperately want to have these blurry conversations with them but I'm just it's just never goes the right way maybe the first starting point and this was for me and I think maybe uh Nate and Luke would say the same the first starting point is actually humility like how do we break and shatter this Paradigm the Paradigm shatters it it it breaks to be open to other paradigms when pride is put away and humility is embraced and taken on and so you may want to just consider taking a second uh ordering a second copy handing it to a friend and allowing this to be a discussion point for you guys to kind of walk through it so it's on Amazon everywhere and yeah and if you like it and you know you think that it's worthwhile uh give it a review on Amazon uh an honest review and that always helps you know in terms of algorithms and all that kind of stuff and and for me personally like I'll read them all so it I I desire to be better you know I want to I want to I want to do better I want to be a better author scholar I want to be a better follower of Jesus so you guys would actually personally help me uh in that way as well yeah thanks troll appreciate it man and thanks again for coming to Costa Rica and and uh spicing up the conversation just being a good friend and uh laughing with us you know I think that's the the most amazing part about blurry creatures something that I haven't had in other creative Realms is I feel like we don't have to just sit around Talk Shop all day we can be friends and there's actually a community here and those people want to know you as you notice you probably getting your ear you know everyone's chatting at you and uh we want to do it again and uh who knows Costa Rica next year let let's let's let's let's chat let's go we uh let's go we had so much fun and and I just appreciate the community and the friendship and it's it's the UN I don't think Luke and I thought that having these conversations would would sort of birth this this wonderful uh community of friends that we have and can't wait for us all to be in the same room together and congrats on your book I know that's a it's a lot of work it's a lot of years and it's hard because you have a lot of smart friends and you you you want to put something on the Shelf with them right and it's hard in these this day and age to write something original and and come up with thoughts that are unique cuz everything's been written you know and a thousand times over yeah and the hidden piece is out everywhere right now so go go get your copy Joel doctor the good doctor is in the house you should have had camo shirts come with the book next time consult the marketing consult the marketing team maybe we do like a limited edition release or something for the book that has like a blurry chapter just for the blurry verse people and'll and it'll come with a camo camo shirt so if you guys want that to happen email these guys and I'll make it happen just blow blow us and also probably most importantly uh as soon as you can we need an invite to to the house of your parents so that we can we can take we can take our shoes off and eat drink chai and eat Indian food because that's dude you had I haven't been thinking about anything since you said that so uh done done we love we love you we love you dude thank you for thank you for all you do for our space man we are uh we're grateful and and again thank you for carrying and picking up this mantle for that that carried I mean I do think that you know with you there's a ton of responsibility in that and you are you're doing an amazing job of carrying that carrying that and picking up that Legacy and then making it your own and so um really feel like that's you know this is these are the things you are doing and want to encourage you in the job that you are you are doing and I know our mutual friend Mike will be proud proud of uh this this little punk the punk kid that showed up in his office is now now picked up and and is is carrying that Legacy yeah yeah appreciate it guys 100% all right buddy [Music] w [Music] [Applause] [Music]