This week, I'm delighted to be joined once again by my friend Chen Mazig, who is an author, social media sensation and Israel advocate, and also a Jewish Chronicle columnist as of a few weeks ago. So, Chen, welcome back. Thank you for having me again, Jake.
It's a pleasure to be with you again. Now, Chen, today, what we're not going to talk about is your spat with Owen Jones, which took place on Sky News. last night. And what that appeared to be about was his assertion that German support for Israel was because of their guilt for the Holocaust. And he is a very vociferous critic of Israel's war in Gaza.
And he seemed to suggest that Germany was supporting a crime because of their guilt for their own crime. So But we're not going to talk about that because that was last night. But what we are going to talk about is the general debate about the Holocaust and Israel. There's so much to talk about in this space.
I thought we'd start off by giving me your views about this idea that the Holocaust was the justification for the establishment of the State of Israel in 1947-48. What are your feelings about that historically? Right.
I mean, we know that... the Holocaust was definitely an event that contributed to the understanding of the necessity of a Jewish state. I take issue with connecting the two events of the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 and the Holocaust, because it's often being done to say, well, Israel and Jews have no ties to this land.
We have no right to be there. We were given this country because of the... crimes committed against Jews in Europe. And we know it's not true.
We know that Jews have an indigenous connection to the land of Israel that has been proven by archaeological finds, by historical finds. We don't even have to go into it because the evidence are so clear. And the fact that Israel was established in this space, in this specific place, is not because of the Holocaust in Europe. And besides, the majority of Jews in Israel today are Jews that have been forced to leave the Middle East and North Africa, like my family from Iraq and Tunisia. They don't have a direct connection to Germany or the Holocaust, although they have been brutalized by Nazi regimes in the Middle East.
And the Nazis also took part in instigating some violent events against them. Can I just pause you there? There's already so much to unpack in that one short few statements. So the idea of the Jewish indigenous connection to the land. I mean, I'm with you.
I agree with you. Obviously, we've spoken about this before, but there are people who argue that the connection is so ancient. and the expulsion of the jews was 2 000 years ago the babylonian exile and jews have mixed their bloodline with so many different nations around the world and such a lot of time has passed and the arabs have come in in between that that almost that connection has been lost because of the amount of time that's that that's uh that's interceded what what are your what's your response to that objection i mean so i would ask them would they imply the same uh uh um you know test of time to any other indigenous community that has been expelled from their land um if uh if native americans let's say would say that they have right to live on their land um would anyone dare to say that um white americans that um have roots in europe um have more rights from these native americans for their land that's only a few hundred years i say only that's not two thousand years of living outside of their native country. I mean, if Native Americans had been expelled and gone to Europe, gone to Latin America, gone to Australia, gone to Africa, and mixed with the local people and established their own homes, and then had said after two millennia that they had a return, people might argue that there was also a dilution that took place. Yeah, I mean, and they can argue that, and I think it's a legitimate point to raise, that people have been outside of their land for so long.
But Jews have continuously tried to return to their land. And there has been a two-third majority of Jewish population in Jerusalem throughout the years. I think it was only in one decade that they were completely erased, but they always returned. The Jewish-Indigenous connection to the land of Israel is not just one that is archaeological or historical connection. Jews are living this connection.
We are praying towards Jerusalem. We hope to return to Jerusalem. My family, although they lived in diaspora in the Middle East, and they were in close proximity to the land of Israel, They saw themselves as Babylonian Jews that have connection to the land of Israel. They continuously pray to return to this land, no matter how close they lived in proximity to this land.
So I think it's important to... to recognize that Jews not only had the connection, they're not only been expelled, they continuously try to return to this land and they were able to return. And by the way, Zionism and the reestablishment of the State of Israel was not about expelling or removing anyone else from this land. And we know, based on most historians would agree that Jews that came to this land in 1948 wanted to live in peace with their neighbors.
They wanted to have a country where Jews and Arabs can live together. And the Palestinians, the Palestinian refugees, that lived there and were expelled from their land. There are still many of them that stayed in this land.
And today they make 2 million Israeli Arabs. They're part of the population. It's an evidence of how there was no really a white ethnic cleansing of all the Palestinians in this land. I mean, it feels to me that what you're saying is that the Jewish connection to the land of Israel is one of culture.
And in the end, although you have... a sort of racial connection to particular parts of the world. The main thing that bonds anybody to any country is the strength of their cultural associations with the place.
You know, what makes me British or any other person British or somebody from Zimbabwe, Zimbabwean or Venezuela, Venezuela or Chinese, China, Chinese. It's a whole combination of race and bloodline, but more importantly, history and culture. And that's the main magnetism that draws the Jewish identity so powerfully.
to the land of israel absolutely and i'm hearing some people making this argument that israel has no right to exist because it's an ethno state um and it's so bizarre for me to hear people i mean i think some commentators british commentators that um uh that have made this this argument it's so uh bizarre because the most countries today are nation states um there is an ethno state in every i mean there's an ethnicity a majority ethnicity in every country around the world and there's one country that the majority of the ethnicity there is jewish And I think it's also coming from this inability of seeing, or this blind spot, rather, of seeing Jews as more than just a religion, more than just a faith. And that was something that, you know, we're talking about the Holocaust. Hitler didn't care how religious a Jew was, or if they practiced Judaism, or if they themselves see themselves as Jews.
It was the eradication of all Jews. And Hitler was able to see that. And I think that what we're seeing today is also this... using this blind spot with people's minds, but people with sinister way of looking at the Jewish people are manipulating the public to think that Jewish identity is just a religion and that they have no, we're not people and it's done as a way to severe our connection to our ancient homeland. Right and of course for Hitler it was about Jews as a race so the extermination, well the point of it was to exterminate this inferior malevolent subhuman race so it was racism with a capital R.
But, you know, just to return to the idea of the Holocaust and the connection to the argument for the state of Israel, you know, over the years, there were many, many parts of the world that were suggested as a possible location for a Jewish state before Palestine was settled upon. And in my book, I've got the number of those states. I've forgotten what the number is, but it's many. It's more than you would think. It includes, of course.
Uganda is the famous one, Birobidjan in Russia. I think there were more than one in Russia. There's parts of South America. There were lots of, I think Alaska is in there.
Over history, there's been a lot of different places that people thought that would be a place where the Jews could be safe and defend themselves. But there was a reason wasn't there that Palestine, Israel was chosen. And that reason wasn't the Holocaust.
Right. No, it wasn't the Holocaust. And it wasn't, I mean... those countries that were suggested and those lands that were debated, the final resolution of all of those debates was that there's only one place where Jews belong.
Throughout history, people said, Jews, move out of your land. Jews, go back to where you came from. No matter where we lived.
I mean, myself as the son of an Iraqi mother and Tunisian father that was born in Israel, people on Twitter often tell me to go back to Poland, which is bizarre. there's this constant never been to poland honestly um i asked my grandmother she never been to poland either um neither are our ancestors um and i think that's i mean we're joking about it but it's it's so i mean it's so revealing that uh no matter where jews lived we uh no matter where our ancestors our grandparents lived um there's always this uh hope or desire to to get us out of wherever we live in in wholesale numbers to move us from one place to another um that has been the true story um and there's finally a place for us to call home there's finally one place in the world that we are safe at that even when things like october horrific incidents like like october 7th and massacres are happening i can tell you my parents are more worried about me living in london than they are about living in israel and my mom is calling me from the bomb shelter and saying um i hope you're safe in london which is like bizarre but it's but it's so that to be fair is is partly because she's a mom and a jewish mom but you know i mean i think that i mean it's interesting i remember that when i was doing some research one of my novels in the past i came across this uh graffiti in the in in wartime in the 1940s uh in london which said an anti-semitic graffiti which said jews go home to palestine And then Jews say, OK, we'll go home to Palestine. And suddenly, no, that's not your home. Go back to the diaspora. But, you know, one interesting point about the different places that the Jews were suggested as locations for a Jewish homeland is that some of them were actually tried.
I mean, Birobidzhan in Russia, that was tried, but it didn't really take because Jews had no reason to live there. They had no connection to the place. So...
to form a sort of colonial, not colonialist, but a sort of fake country somewhere that you haven't got any roots, just didn't really take with Jews, unlike, of course, Palestine. But but moving on from that, I mean, it feels to me that the other way in which the Holocaust is, is is used against Israel is this equivalence between Jews, Israelis and Nazis. Tell me what your thoughts are about that. It's it's. quite simple.
Jews will never be like Nazis. We are nothing like the people that have tried to kill each and every Jew and to suggest that or insinuate that or even connect any actions of modern day Israel to the Nazis. It's just a Holocaust inversion and it's done to desensitize people to antisemitism and to dilute rather the memory of the Holocaust. I would love to hear also your thoughts on that and specifically about this idea that somehow Germany is feeling guilty for what happened to Jews in the Holocaust and that's why they support Israel in this killing Palestinians as some would suggest.
What do you make of that? Well, I mean, my feeling is that the idea that lurks behind many people who articulate this idea that Germany is supporting a crime because they feel guilty for their own crime, is the equivalence between the IDF's defensive war against jihadism, in which they're trying their best to protect civilians, an equation between that and the actions of the Nazis. I mean, it's so absurd and it's such a smear.
And in actual fact, the equation of Jews and Nazis, Zionists and Nazis, is first found in the Kremlin, in the Soviet propagandists. during the Cold War, which was probably the most effective propaganda campaign that the world has ever known. And all of the ideas that are now so common today, like Israel's guilty of genocide, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, white supremacy, colonialism, and that Zionism is racism, a big one, and of course, that the Zionists are the same as the Nazis, they were all invented by racist propagandists in the Kremlin and disseminated to the left. around the world, which is why they're so popular today.
It's a testament to the success of that propaganda. And the idea that the Jews are the Nazis, to me, not only is it the worst insult you could give to Jews, but it's sort of, there's a kind of a glee, you know, amongst anti-Semites that, because it causes Jews to then say, no, we're not Nazis. And it's like, it reminds me of that saying that an anti-Semite only accuses a Jew of theft. for the joy of seeing him turn out his pockets. It's the joy of seeing a Jew having to argue that we're not Nazis when it's so obvious, don't you think?
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree. I think that this, the bear, I mean, I've seen, I felt exactly that when I was in, we're not talking about last night, but generally in interviews where I was accused of being a Nazi or even suggesting that there's some connection between the the crimes of the Nazis to modern day Israel, to think that we are, we have to be placed in a spot to defend ourselves, that we're not that, is just horrific. And I think it's also very telling on how people have, I mean, completely became desensitized to the memory of the Holocaust. And a lot of people don't even know what happened in the Holocaust. We know that six million Jews were killed, but the, I mean, younger generation that I'm speaking to, are really uneducated about those horrific violent attacks on Jews, which was all because Jews were not Aryans, all because they didn't see us as white.
And here we are having the conversation about how Jews are not Nazis, how we actually have an indigenous connection to our homeland that you told us to go back to, and now we are actually not white, and now we're actually not white supremacists. All of this is just a brilliant campaign to taint Israel and Jews, the Jewish nation, in this way, so that when there will be time when people will take violent action. I mean, these days, you look at the street, people are taking violent actions against Jews. We get graffitis sprayed on synagogues and on our safest. supposed to be our safest place in the world.
And there's not much outrage. There's not much outrage. And that's really disheartening and concerning because I'm worried not only for our people, I'm worried for the faith of the world. Right. And there's a reason why we're having this conversation now and why so many people are making these false allegations, these smears of Jews are Nazis and so on and all these ideas.
And the reason is because October the 7th precipitated this. this huge wave of anti-Semitism. It awakened it all over the world. And I feel like I want to talk to you about what's happened this past week because there was that awful attack on the aid convoy that resulted in the death of innocent, and not only innocent, but very brave and courageous and decent aid workers who were helping the Palestinians. And it feels like that was seized upon by people who were just waiting.
to convince more people. You know, there was this idea that they wanted, that I was asked myself in several interviews, is this a turning point by people who wanted there to be a turning point so much that they would just wait, could this be what we've been waiting for? And there's been a number of columnists and other people who I felt were on the right side of the argument, who are suddenly saying things like, you know, I am pro-Israel, I've always stuck up for Israel. but now this has gone too far. So it feels like they've kind of succumbed to the weight of the propaganda that's been surrounding them and they're no longer able to think objectively and see this attack as a grave mistake like the British have made, like the Americans have made in the past, like every country has made in war.
But no, it's different and they've suddenly fallen to the dark side and it feels like the debate has really changed this last week and it feels much more bleak than it was before. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I'm with you.
I feel like a lot of people have either shifted or I mean, myself, when the news broke, I felt so much shame and grief and sadness for what happened. And I had to have an internal conversation with myself and ask myself why I feel this way. And, you know, I've seen that Israel immediately took actions. It immediately took responsibility.
Countries are not judged by their mistakes, but by how they are dealing with those mistakes. And Israel did not hide it. I mean, immediately conducted investigation, presented the results of the investigation to the highest levels in the Israeli government and the IDF. That made me a bit more proud. I mean, of course, I'm still sad and my heart was shattered to hear about this.
But I think it was the fact that it was a humanitarian aid that was not complicit in any terrorism. Even those that say that UNRWA has nothing to do with Hamas. Deep inside themselves, they know that UNRWA is completely controlled by Hamas. And they know that when we hear about humanitarians from UNRWA that have been killed, majority of them are Hamas terrorists. So I think even those that would argue with me on Sky News would know deep inside that UNRWA is a corrupt organization that has been controlled by Hamas.
And that's why this incident was so tragic, because I think it was for the first time in this war, not the first time, maybe the second or third time that something so horrific of people that are completely uninvolved took place. We know that there are Palestinian civilians that were killed, and it's not to take away from the tragedy of every Palestinian civilian that is not involved with Hamas being killed in this conflict. It's horrific, and it's all the blame of Hamas, 100%.
I don't think Israel can be blamed for this exemplary way of conducting... I... you know, of minimizing the effect of this war on civilians. I know from serving in the army and being in wars in the past and serving in Gaza, I know how much the IDF is trying their best to avoid civilian casualties. And with all that being said, there's no really a moral war.
At the end of the day, the difference between an army and police is that armies are supposed to kill the enemy. And when an enemy is embedding themselves inside civilian population the way that Hamas does, It's inevitable that it will be civilian casualties. It's just tragic. And I think more than anyone, we want it to end.
Israelis want it to end more than any British Sky News commentator that would pretend that they care about Palestinians. At the end, I think we care much more. Now, one of the things that's really struck me, not just this week, but these last few weeks, is that actually nothing has changed since October the 7th. You know, we had the October 7th attacks, they finished, they didn't change, we know what they were, although they were still digesting it emotionally, I suppose, and that it's still alive for the grieving relatives and so on, and those affected.
But that happened. And the consequence of that is that the hostages have got to be returned and the Hamas has to be destroyed. Those two goals, without those two goals, there'll never be peace. If Hamas continues to exist, there'll never be peace because they don't believe in a two state solution for one thing.
And for another thing, they want to openly conduct another October the 7th. So nothing has changed. All that has changed is that the war has continued and the death toll has mounted on both sides. And yet you see the. the the the propaganda the the you know beginning to claim follower after follower after follower and the momentum beginning to mount against israel even though really nothing has changed and i find myself i don't know how you feel about this whether you share this experience but sometimes i'm making this argument and i think to myself am i am i'm the crazy one am i mad am i the bad guy am i wrong and i look at the facts and i listen i read and i think it through and i think No, actually, I'm not wrong.
I'm right. It's just that there are many more lies that have claimed many more followers than there ever have been before. Do you get that feeling? Yeah, yeah.
And you're not wrong, Jake. It's so hard to resist this gaslighting and this constant attempt to make us doubt who we are and doubt ourself and doubt reality. But the fact that it's the popular point of view doesn't make it right.
In fact, it's often the popular... point of view is the one that has deep flaws in it. And I feel like we've been made to believe that we're wrong when we're not.
We're definitely not. And I know because I've just been to Israel and I speak to people in Israel and I know from my own experience, but it's just really an evidence of how strong the propaganda is against Israel and against Jews. And, you know, you're saying how things haven't really changed since October.
And I think you're absolutely right. Because everyone that is protesting in the street against the war, they're not really protesting against the war, they're protesting against Israel. No one is holding Hamas accountable, although they are saying things like, oh, we're tired of speaking about Hamas.
But Hamas is the problem. Hamas is still shooting rockets on Israel. They just shot rockets today. The fact that we are not able to see it as two sides that are fighting in this racism of low expectations from the Palestinians, and not hold them accountable for what is happening. While there is tragedy, while our heart is shattered for every civilian on any side of any conflict that has been killed, we need to hold them accountable.
And while we are talking, there are 134 hostages that I'm terrified that they might be turning into a footnote in this conversation. They are the main issue. That's why this war is continuing.
And from the beginning, on October 7th, protests... protesters around the world protested against Hamas in the same vigorous way that they protest against the existence of Israel, this war would have ended. But it didn't.
And in fact, you know, I was struck very much by a tweet by Rachel Johnson, the journalist, the sister of Boris Johnson the other day, in response to this a strike saying that, you know, when 14 British citizens were killed on October the 7th, the outrage was nowhere near as great as when three British citizens were mistakenly killed by Israel in this aid convoy. And that says something, doesn't it? There somehow seems to be so much more outrage towards Israel, our democratic ally, that is trying to protect civilian life than against the jihadi enemy who is doing the exact opposite, who is trying specifically to kill civilians. I mean, you know what, maybe we could end by thinking what keeps you going. I mean, that one thing that I often think to myself and repeat to people whenever I can is that The other side has an advantage and we have an advantage.
Their advantage is that they have the numbers. They always have greater numbers than we do. But our advantage is that we happen to be right.
What keeps you going? Yeah, no, I agree. I think that the goal of Hamas is to destroy Israel. And there's many ways that they can do it. They tried with military force and they couldn't.
They know that our army is strong. They take the hostages. They continue this war because they want to. defeat Israel's view and make us into a pariah around the world.
But also, I think their deepest wish is that Israel would lose its character and its values. They are just desperate for Israel to go in and do what other countries around the world, not to name names, have done in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in other places where they carpet bomb and just committed, I mean, something that would probably just would be warranted to be described as genocide, but it wasn't as much. interest on those on calling it this way, because then, you know, the media will not discover it was covered in this way. But the point is that I think Israel is fighting a war for its existence, but also for its character and for its values.
And every day we are facing these dilemmas of whether or not we are going to be what they want us to be, or we're going to be who we are. And I'm so proud of the Israeli soldiers. We've lost hundreds of soldiers in this war, over 500 soldiers.
But I'm so proud of them for being in the front line, for doing what they can to protect civilians, to protect Israelis and not to attack Palestinians. And the fact that we haven't gotten into Rafah is just another reminder how delicate the situation is and Israel will not go into Rafah because they know there's civilians there they know that the hostages are there they know that Hamas is embedding himself within civilian population they know that Hamas spent millions and millions of dollars on building tunnels to protect themselves and not civilians while Israel has spent those millions on protecting civilians and not themselves but I remind myself of who we are and I remember stuff of who Hamas is and we can never I mean I think I said it last time we spoke that how we cannot turn into the monsters that we're fighting but that's the one thing that keeps me going to remind myself that not only that we're right, we're also fighting a just war. The hostages must be released.
Hamas must surrender. But Israel must stay the Israel that it is, that we all love, that is not perfect. But it doesn't have to be perfect to be beautiful. Yeah, well, I'll just add that we mustn't forget that in a war, for example, in Iraq, when we went into Iraq with the Americans, we killed, I think it's something like, from memory, about 200,000 people in three years. Something like that.
Yeah, I think in America, it was around 403,000 people that were killed in their war after 9-11. And no one showed, I mean, come on, no one showed remorse for those civilians that were killed. How many people had an Iraqi flag or an Afghanistan flag in their bio or an emoji? How many of them, do they even know what those flags look like?
But they all know what the Palestinian flag looks like. They all know that it's a watermelon emoji that they're using while they're carrying. none about those civilians that their own countries are complicit in killing right and in actual fact i mean i was thinking back the other day to 2021 when there was the last time there was a it wasn't a war but it was an exchange of fire rockets and things with with hamas and at that time 256 palestinians were killed about half of them were were terrorists um and that was enough to bring if you remember 180 000 people out to protest in hyde park And there was convoys of people with Palestinian flags driving through Golders Green, threatening through megaphones to rape Jewish daughters and women.
There were people patrolling through the streets of high street gangs and around the embassy saying they wanted the Zionists, they wanted their blood. And that was for 256 deaths, of which half were were terrorists. And at that time, you know, the I think the Syrian civil war had passed around 500000 deaths, including many Palestinians in Yarmouk. And that wasn't even, according to the UN, the worst humanitarian crisis.
The worst one was in Yemen, where children were being killed and slaughtered and starved. And in a way, that says it all, because, you know, that was happening then with such a ridiculously... I mean, as you said, every life lost is a tragedy, but the numbers were minute by comparison to now. And that just shows the hypocrisy, the double standards and the obsessive weird.
anti-semitism that powers so much of this stuff really is yeah it really is but you know when we're facing those people that um have nothing to do with this conflict that um are just using this as a way to gain followers and to become famous um it's uh we we must not let them uh push us to um to towards the direction they want us to go at because a lot of them they're they're desperate to get us to say something wrong so they can weaponize it against us I've seen it in so many debates that I've done. And the most important thing is that we stay calm, that we handle ourselves with grace and we keep ourselves above the haters. We're not like them. We'll never be like them.
And our existence is their worst nightmare. And we just need to continue existing because by existing, we are resisting their hate. Absolutely. I totally agree. And well said.
I mean, I tend to see myself as morally degenerate anyway, so I'm not sure there's much hope for me, but hopefully you've got people like you leading us. So anyway. thank you so much for joining uh joining us uh this week on the jewish chronicle podcast and and stay strong shabbat shalom and we'll speak to you again soon thank you