from viewers like you. Thank you for supporting
TVO's journalism. Observe locally, learn globally. I'm Nam Kiwanuka. Tonight, to wrap our week
debunking pseudo-science and other misinformation, we return to our
2018 conversation with Melanie Goodchild. She explained why linking
knowledge systems - in this case Indigenous and that of the American
Space Agency, NASA - can create solid ground for
progress on climate change. ♪ NASA's Indigenous
Peoples Pilot was an effort to combat the
climate crisis across the globe by tapping into
Indigenous knowledge in an ethical and
culturally relevant manner. Melanie Goodchild is
now founder and co-director of the Turtle Island Institute - an Indigenous social innovation
think-tank and teaching lodge. She continues her work
as Research Fellow at the Waterloo Institute for Social
Innovation and Resilience. Here's our
conversation from 2018. I think we get western science,
we understand what that is. But Indigenous knowledge is not something everybody
will understand. So, let's start there.
How do you define that? Okay. So, Indigenous knowledge-- well, there's great diversity
among Indigenous communities. I'm Anishinaabe, for instance, and so, we would say...
(Speaking Anishinaabemowin) So, it's our worldview, it's our
way of seeing the world, and it's really interconnected
with local ecosystems. And some people have called it traditional
ecological knowledge, but it's also
the contemporary knowledge, the lived experience of
Indigenous peoples, which is, in some ways, an alternative to Western theory
and scientific thinking. Well, I was just going to ask, is that dramatically different
from what people would learn in any typical Ontario
college or university? I think it's
dramatically different in the way it's presented,
where knowledge resides. Like, we have an oral history, we present things
through storytelling, but there's a lot
of common ground. I mean, our Elders say
we've always done science, it's just not been called that. And so, in university, we tend to think of
the scientific method and storytelling is not part
of the scientific method. So, there's a bit of
a false dichotomy there, though, I think, because there's
a lot of common ground 'cause we're really
just looking for answers and looking for ways
to make good decisions about protecting the earth. If you don't
call it science, what would you call it? We call it-- there's
actually a that word we say, it's our relationship
to the land. In Anishinaabemowin, it's...
(Speaking Anishinaabemowin) ...and what that means,
we say land is "akia", which is a fast-moving current, and so our ancestors knew that the earth
was round and not flat. And so 'akia' is 'land', and then...
(Speaking Anishinaabemowin) is your relationship
to all of creation. So, we don't actually
have a word for 'nature' or 'environment' or
'science' in our language. Let's pursue that a bit, the differences in language between the way Indigenous
culture describes things and the way
Western science does. Right. Give us some examples. So, our language and codes are a way of
looking at the world, and a good example
of that is, in English, we have a lot of nouns, right? A table, a glass, a tree, and those become
inanimate objects. But in Anishinaabe,
it's all descriptive, and so we would describe things, and in that,
we're creating energy. So, things are alive. That's where that concept
of Mother Earth comes from and the spirit of water. Water Protectors talk
about the spirit of water and that you need to
protect that spirit. And it's because we
believe that those are a gift and that we need to have a
reciprocal relationship with those gifts
and appreciate them, instead of looking at them
purely as ecological services. Does that, in fact, change the way you problem-solve compared to
Western scientists? I think it does because
we have a holistic view. And so often science
is compartmentalized. I mean, there's lots of
different types of scientists. Right? And so, whether you're a
biologist or a botanist or ecologist, and even science
comes together in something new, like ecological economics. But we have a holistic view,
recognizing the web of life and interconnectivity
of all of creation, including our sacred
responsibility within it. So, when we're problem-solving, we're not just looking at
compartmentalized knowledge, we're looking at the
whole ecosystem, for example. So, when Inuit Elders
in the Arctic were asked about declining
beluga whale populations, they started talking about
beavers in a recent study and it was because the
beavers were building dams and affecting the food sources, and then the population of
the beluga whales went down. But science would be, perhaps, just looking at
specific aspects of the issue, whereas the Elders talked about, "Hey, there's a lot of beavers "and they're building
a lot of dams" So, they were able to bring
together their local traditional knowledge with
the knowledge of scientists who were monitoring
those populations. You know in science that they
say that people are either left brain people or
right brain people, right? You know,
humanities are right side. Science, math,
left side and so on. Right. Does that notion
or does that theory exist in Indigenous
knowledge, as well? It does, but it's not
necessarily a binary division. We have a more holistic
teaching, a framework that is-- it's actually represented
in the medicine wheel, so the four colours
and there's four quadrants. So, our Elders talk
about four intelligences. Similar, I guess, to, you know, Howard Gardner's
multiple intelligences. This is emotional-- emotional,
spiritual, mental, and physical. And so, when you're
problem-solving and you're looking at,
you know, really complex issues, you're thinking about those
different perspectives. But often in society, we tend
to intellectualize everything. All right,
let's cut to the chase here. You have an extraordinary
new partnership with NASA. Right. The American Space Agency. Yes. How did that come together? Yeah. When people hear that,
they go, "NASA NASA?" And I say, "Yeah, NASA NASA." I was actually in
International Women's Forum
Fellowship Program, sponsored by Harvard
Business School and INSEAD, and one of my co-fellows
Dr. Nancy Searby, who's the program manager
for NASA's Earth Sciences Applied Sciences
Capacity Building Program, and we were talking about
Indigenous knowledge systems and we were talking about
spirituality, and she said,
"Well, they've reached out "to communities
in the United States "to talk about geospatial
data and the applications "for remote sensing with
Indigenous communities," and we decided that
we'd like to work together. And it's taken about a year to
come together and, you know, figure out what we're doing,
so in a couple of weeks, we're bringing together
Indigenous Knowledge-keepers with some of the federal
government departments that support NASA and some of
the NASA scientists to talk about this
kind of intersection of traditional knowledge
and their technologies. I could be totally
wrong about this, okay? This may be just
my bias and stereotype coming to the fore here,
but don't scientists think they know everything
about everything? And why would they-- why would they think
anything as spiritual as what you could
bring to the party would be something
they'd want to consider? Yeah.
I think what's happened is that, in my experience
and I'm a social scientist and I've worked with a lot of-- with what we call
'hard scientists' or 'normal scientists'
in the Thomas Kuhn sense, and there's a scientific method and there's a real
division of labour in terms of the disciplines,
and there's an opening now, I think, for looking
at other world views because we need
a more complete picture of really complex problems. So, if you look at
something like climate change or biodiversity loss,
those are very complex issues. They're not simple
or complicated. In other words, there's not
one sector or one worldview that's going to solve something so interconnected
to other things. And they're looking at
traditional knowledge and what that can bring to what's really
a somewhat important, of course,
but narrow view of a problem. And they are
recognizing that, you know, if you take a satellite image
and you look at, say, water distribution,
that bringing in Elders and local Knowledge Keepers, who even would describe that
image in a different language can provide insight. So, it's all about
increasing your exposure to different types of data. Which scientists
actually like to do. Yes, we do. Okay. Can I ask you to take your
right arm and go like that... Yes. Okay.
Can we get a camera on this? I was about to say that the
planets are near and dear to your heart, but it's
actually not on your left arm, it's on your right arm. You've got-- and just
twist it a little more that way. That way? Mm-hmm. Yes. That's Saturn, right?
That's Saturn. What is Saturn doing
on your right forearm? Yeah.
(Laughing) So, I have the planets
and it's interesting because when
we introduce ourselves, I say...
(Speaking Anishinaabemowin) (Speaking Anishinaabemowin) Those are my spirit names and both of them have
the word 'star' in them. One of them in
English is Morningstar, and my spirit helpers
are two orcas, and these represent one of our teachings
from the Elders, and so, I decided to get
that inked onto my forearm. When? A couple of years ago,
I got this, yeah. So, it was actually before
I was working with NASA. I was going to say,
I'm guessing that's one of the first things you
showed them when you met them. I did show them that. I mean, people usually
admire the ink that I have, so they did see that, yeah. That's cool. What kind of work are you
going to be doing with NASA, as it relates specifically
to climate change? So, the geospatial data offers
real-time satellite imagery, so that you can look at
land use planning, climate change
adaptation, mitigation, you can look at water use,
disaster risk reduction. And so, it's looking at the
needs of Indigenous communities and sort of the gaps in data that Indigenous
communities have because the-- while the software
is open source, the actual interpretation of the
images requires some training. And so, we're going to be
meeting with Native American communities on the
Red Cliff Reservation. Where is that? That's in Wisconsin. Okay. So, I'm heading there
in a couple of weeks and we're gonna be talking
to them about their needs. And so, for example,
the Navajo Nation looks at water and has drought issues. And so, hydrologists
work with NASA, Navajo hydrologists
work with NASA. Another example here is
in the north, you know, caribou migration - reindeer herders up in the
Arctic have worked with NASA and brought together their
understanding of permafrost thaw and different things
that are happening because they're experiencing
global temperature rising twice as fast as
we are in the south, and so they're having to
look at adaptation strategies, particularly because
that's their food source and a really huge part
of their culture are, you know, reindeer or
caribou herders, for example. What kind of,
if any, pushback have you had from sort of official science to what you are
trying to achieve here? Yeah. I think if you're
challenging the status quo, you're bound to
receive some pushback; and often, it happens at
more of a personal level than an institutional level, when you challenge the
identity and core of a scientist who's not used to speaking about
spirituality, spirit helpers, metaphysical things. Indigenous communities, for
example, have a lot of knowledge that came from cosmology, and that's reflected in
the fact we have 13 moons, and we don't call the months
like "January, February"; we name them by what's happening
in the seasons. And so, scientists
often are finding that they're not the only
experts in the room, and so sometimes that's-- I think there's a little
bit of discomfort. It's destabilizing, you know,
when your core identity is something that-- it's not
necessarily being challenged, but it certainly
requires some humility to understand there are multiple
worldviews and viewpoints. You're introducing
some rather new ideas for the folks on this one. Yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day, I presume that you
think it will be better for the collaboration and I
wonder what that looks like. Yeah. So, you know, there was a push, I think, in ecology to
integrate these knowledges, and I don't really think
it's about integration. I think it's what
we call ethical space. Willie Ermine
talked about ethical space. If you and I are sitting here talking about really
distinct worldviews, the space in-between us
needs to be safe, fair, where I don't
put down your ideas and you don't put down mine,
but we have this discussion. And we actually try
to integrate them, so it's actually about
maybe braiding sweetgrass - it's about braiding
these ideas together and going back and forth, recognizing that
they're both equally valid and have something to contribute and they're going to give us
a more holistic picture. If you just completely
ignored, you know, one, either science or traditional
Indigenous knowledge, that you would not get a
complete picture and therefore, you know, what you're trying to do -
make decisions or find solutions to problems - you're going to
miss the opportunity because those insights might be
in that other worldview. So, give us a concrete example of how the bringing together of these two different
ways of doing things would result in
something positive. So, I think, you know, if you look at the remote
satellite imagery and the caribou or
the reindeer herders, as an example, because
this was an actual example of NASA working with
Sámi reindeer herders, is that they are dependent on reindeer for their
food and sustenance, and now with global, you know,
climate change, the snow-- when you have-- like, we just
had an ice storm here, right? This late rainfall, that really kind of
affects dramatically what happens with the reindeer because there's a
tough layer of snow that they can't
get through to eat and then their
reindeer would starve. And so, what NASA has done
is gotten together with these
Knowledge Holders and said, "Now, what can we do "to make changes so that we
understand weather patterns?" And it's the same thing with
flooding, forest fires. And so, there's real-time data, but it's complemented
by an oral history that goes further back than
the scientists have data on. It's in songs, it's in
ceremonies, it's in legends. There's stories of the tsunami that happened on the West Coast
of Canada, for example, in the Coast Salish
people's oral history that the scientists are
only sort of figuring out, and so, you often see that. You'll see stories of, Elders have been
saying this for a long time and scientists caught up
and found evidence and now, they come together to
tell a more complete story. How long ago was that tsunami? That tsunami was in about 1700, from what I understand. So, your oral traditions
know more about that than what scientists
have left on record from that? Right. Yeah. Interesting.
Let's show this-- Sheldon,
show this animation, if we can. This is a NASA animation showing
climate change time lapse. This is from the year 1880
to almost present-day. Yellow, orange, red signifying, of course, a rise
in temperatures. And I wonder how climate change
has, in your experience, been affecting Indigenous
communities in your world? Mm-hmm. So, when you see
temperatures rise like that, one of the effects of that are the melting of
glaciers in the Arctic, and then where that water
goes is into the sea and then you have
sea levels rising. So, there are
Indigenous communities that are internationally
and as well as in Canada have seen severe
weather events, they've seen hurricanes
coming further north, major tides coming into their
communities from the sea, also permafrost thaw. And so, you're seeing
insects come further north than they've ever done before,
changing migration patterns. So, people living close
to local ecological systems - they're fishing
and they're hunting - are seeing this effect
this has on the ecosystem, of which they're,
you know, a part and also culturally and spiritually
a part of that system. Now, besides your
work with NASA and the work
on climate change, are there other issues
that you are working on that you think the injection of
Indigenous knowledge would help? Yeah, for sure.
So, I have the opportunity to work across a lot of
different sectors because I study
social innovation, complexity theory
and systems thinking, which, really, to me,
is Anishinaabe... (Speaking Anishinaabemowin) It's all the same thing
with our knowledge because we were systems thinkers
before we were-- you know, before we heard
that term "systems thinkers". It's applicable across many different
areas of interest because people are recognizing
how complex things are, and what systematic thinking
does, is it helps you understand
paradoxical implications. Like you think you know the
answer, but you haven't thought about how it is going to cascade
across multiple systems. This huge province of ours has endless natural beauty
to explore, and this summer, after being cooped up for so
long during the pandemic, people are getting
out to enjoy it. But if you're going
to the backcountry, our Eastern Ontario Hub
journalist Marsha McCloud has been looking
into why caution, as well as curiosity
is critical, too. She joins us now from
Toronto to explain. Hey, Marsha. Hey. All right, so maybe
we'll take a step back. When we talk about backcountry, what are we actually
talking about? I guess I'll say what it isn't. I think a lot of people might
remember car camping. They might have
gone with their parents. I can certainly remember
going with my parents. And if it rained all night, I might sleep in
the backseat of the car. Backcountry camping, you can't
drive to the campsites. So, it means
you're either hiking with all of your
gear on your back, or you're canoeing
into your campsite, but you are definitely not
driving up to the site. And once you get there,
you are gonna find, you know, there's often very weak
cell service, if any at all. There's not going to
be an electric hook-up. There's not going to be a, um, flushing toilet,
for instance. You can google thunder box if you're curious
for how that works. Um, and you kind of just have to
make do with what you prep. And in terms of
when we look at Ontario, what areas would we
be looking at? Yeah, I think sort of the
quintessential backcountry often that people
think of is Algonquin Park. It's about four hours north of
Toronto, a little bit further, depending on where you're
going in the park, and it's a pretty
massive expanse. And much Algonquin Park
actually is backcountry with, you know,
sort of marked campsites. So, it's not
just totally random. You do book a specific
part of the park and then head there. Now, during this pandemic, we have seen an uptick in
people using outdoor spaces, when we talk about just green
spaces in urban settings, but also trails and parks. What have we seen
in terms of backcountry and the popularity there? Yeah, I mean,
even just anecdotally, I think anybody who's trying to
book a backcountry or even not necessarily
backcountry, but even car camping knows that you go on to
the Ontario Parks website and you might see a lot of
little booked up red triangles. But in terms of
the actual numbers, we know that 2020 was a record
setting year for Ontario parks. They had 11 million visits, which was that was a combination
of day use, as well as camping. And prior to the April shutdown, it seemed like 2021 was going to
be on track to even beat that. But we'll have to kind of see
how the data comes in. And I think, as well, you know, across North America,
a trend has been that volunteer search
and rescue organizations, as well police services
are saying, you know, we are seeing a lot more people
needing to be rescued from the backcountry
and even from some areas that aren't
necessarily that remote. Now, we'll get into
that a little later. But I do want to
touch on the benefits. Obviously, a lot of us have
been sitting put in our desks and working from home, if we
have the luxury to do that. But let's talk about the
benefits of getting outdoors. Very good question. So, I mean, growing up,
I worked leading and helping lead canoe trips
in Algonquin Park, and taught canoeing, and it's
awesome to see for kids, but anyone at any age, but especially for kids
to see the benefits of getting away from technology, learning new skills, the confidence
that comes from that, breathing really fresh air, and it's just a really-- can be
a really awesome experience, if you're prepared and kind of
able to handle the things that might get thrown at you.
But I mean, in terms of just-- it's certainly
not just me saying it. There's a lot of really
well established research saying that getting outdoors - not just the backcountry,
but whatever, really - can improve your mood,
it can reduce stress, improve how you're
able to focus. So, it's it's really
pretty all encompassing. So, let's talk about
a little bit of safety. And I think this
is interesting - maybe a lot of
people don't know, but maybe a question
I'll pose to you is are there any requirements,
certifications, that a person needs
to have before, you know, being able to use some of the
equipment in these areas? No, really, you go online, you make your reservation, and then you're going to
show up at the access point where you're going
to begin your trip, and maybe you're
renting gear, like a canoe, you're renting some dry bags, but there's no requirements
that you have to have. I mean, that said,
the experts that I spoke to - so, trip guides, I spoke with the search
and rescue coordinator for the Ontario
Provincial Police - they said to me that there are
some sort of requisite skills that are going to make
your experience safer, better, more enjoyable, and one thing they
really emphasized was being-- having a map, first
of all, having an official map, being able to read that map. Knowing where you are and
knowing where you're going - such an important skill
in the backcountry, as well as things like open
water safety if you're canoeing. And things even just like can
you build a fire, set up camp? What are you going to
do if it's pouring rain? Those kinds of things. Now, you yourself
have been out in backcountry. You have, you know,
pretty much followed this sort of industry
for quite a while. Do you know of any
kind of circumstances that have led to someone
needing to be rescued? Is there some advice that
you would give to people who are, you know,
looking to get out there? Yeah, I do think
I probably come back to kind of the open water
safety element. I think a lot of people think
"I'm a strong swimmer, like why do I need to wear my
life jacket?" things like that. I mean, for me, I've been
paddling for 20 years. I would never take my
life jacket off in the backcountry, like
just as a matter of practice. You never know what's
going to happen. But-- and I think that's what the
experts really said to me, too, is that when we see really bad
incidents happen, it's often the
combination of open water and lack of skill
or even cold water. I mean, these lakes
are really big. It takes a long time
for them to heat up, something to think about if
you're going in the early season or the later season. But even in the
middle of the summer, they can still be quite cold. And thinking about things like, are you going to paddle straight
down the middle of the lake? What happens if you tip?
What's your plan? What if another canoe
in your party tips? How are you going to help them?
Do you know how to do a rescue? Really, you know, much more safe
is paddling along the shoreline, so that if you do tip
or something happens, you're much closer to shore,
things like that that just kind of takes a while
to learn and pick up. And, you know, being able to
steer in windy conditions, those sorts of things. Okay, so, I want to
take a step back, let's say, before I even get to the water, before I've even managed
to book something, and this-- maybe I'm
speaking for myself here, but I'm sure there's a
lot of other viewers here who are probably
in that same boat. How should I prepare?
Where should I be looking? Is there anything that
I should be reading or training on land or anything
for something like this? Yeah, I think even
just the fact that, Dan, you used the word
'prepare' is a great sign. I think that that's what--
I mean, myself and experts would-- would really emphasize
is just you have to prepare, and that means things
like leaving behind-- creating a day by day itinerary
of where you might be going and leaving that
behind with somebody who is not coming on your trip, so if you don't
return back in time, they can call
the authorities and say, "Hey, you know, my loved one, "my friend is not back
from their trip on time." Planning things like,
do you know your gear? You know, I once
accidentally brought water purification tablets that
take four hours to purify, when I thought there were 30
minute purification tablets, and, you know, that was
a pretty silly mistake. It's not something
I would do again, and it almost had some pretty
negative consequences. So, really, knowing
what your gear is. Have you set up
your tent before? Set it up in your
backyard or even in a park. Like ,it's just,
if you live in Toronto, maybe setting it up in a city
park, even if it feels silly. But just knowing how
you're gear works, I think, is really important and making
sure you're waterproof, and making sure you're
aware of certain things; like it's quite easy
to get dehydrated when you're out on the water or under the sun
for a long period of time. And do you know how much water you're going to need to be
drinking throughout the day? Is there something that we
should be keeping in mind once we're in the park,
not just safety, but also etiquette as well? Yeah, that's a
really good question, and I think, anecdotally, some
people did say that last year-- and they emphasize, you know,
they really didn't think it was malice;
it was just, I mean, it's sort of
an educational piece-- but they noticed a real increase
in live trees being cut down, which is against the rules
in provincial parks. So, folks cutting down
live trees for firewood or even, really,
any kind of live plants are not supposed to be removed. As well as things like garbage - you know, are you packing out all of the things
that you brought in? Not just sort of trying to burn
it haphazardly in a fire pit. As well as things like hanging up your food
when you go to sleep at night in a tree away
from the tree trunk, both to practice bear safety, but also sort of
making sure small critters don't get into
all of your snacks. The understanding is
leave no trace, I guess. Exactly. Now, one thing that
I think, you know-- in some situations,
it might be too late - you know, in a situation where you are on a boat
or something like that - but if you do need help and
something goes wrong, what are the suggestions? I imagine, you know,
a lot of people may not have their
phones on them. What-- you know, is it
a call to 911? What should someone be doing,
if they need help? Yeah, I mean,
it is a really good idea to have your phone on you
in backcountry, juiced up, just in the chance that you are able to get a
little bit of weak signal. But failing that, some people do satellite phones
into the backcountry or they bring other satellite
communications devices, like SPOT devices, I think,
are becoming more popular. However, there are people that
don't use phones, either, and it's just knowing, do you
have the skills and abilities, if Something goes wrong - a member of your
group is injured - to be able to get back
to the outfitters or to be able to find
somebody else in the park who might be able to go back
and place that call for help. And I think, as well, um...
really making sure there is that person on land who knows when you're
supposed to be coming back is super important
because if you're not back-- the provincial coordinator or the search and rescue
coordinator for the OPP really stressed to me that,
if people are not back in time, don't hesitate to
call the authorities. He said, you know,
"It's much easier "to deal with these things when
we hear of it hours later "or right in the moment rather
than days and days later." And he said to me, even, you
know, a lot of the time when they do get called in,
what's happened is that somebody
is injured or, you know, they might have sort
of bitten off a trip that is too significant
for their abilities. And I think a lot of people
really emphasized to me, start small, start with
what you know you can do, and don't-- don't go out there
and try and really feel like you need to prove
yourself with some, you know, 14 day
trek or something. Really start small. This is great stuff. Now, I don't want
to get ahead of myself, but maybe I'll see you
out on the water this summer, potentially. I would love that. Thank you so much. And that's it for tonight's
Agenda in the Summer. I'm Jeyan Jeganathan. Thanks for watching TVO and for joining us
online at tvo.org. Have a good weekend and Nam
will see you again on Monday. ANNOUNCER:
The Agenda in the Summer with
Nam Kiwanuka is made possible through generous
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made possible by the Barry and Laurie Green
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