um so hello everybody Welcome to the 28th uh book that we are reading together it's such a joy every time to hear another number getting added to our list so let me uh yeah it's a nice feeling it's a very nice feeling oh so I'll share the screen and let's begin okay so we are discussing the uh fifth child by Doris Lessing today so let's see a little bit about the author the awards in recognition that she has received and then let's see about the book the historical context and the period in which it is written uh a little bit about her writing style and the themes which I explored in the book some quotes from the booktube so uh Doris Lessing is a British author she was born as Doris me Taylor in 1919 in what is now Iran so her father was a bank look and her mother was trained as a nurse um lived by the promise of farming riches the family actually moved uh to what is now Zimbabwe where Miss Lessing had what she has called a painful childhood but uh I think it's more of the painful part of it is more of her having a lot of misunderstanding with her mother and a lot of quarrels with her mother so she left school at the age of 13 and she was self-educated from then on she left home when she was 15 and in 1937 she moved to Salisbury which is now uh the place called Harare in southern Rhodesia where she took jobs as a telephone operator and as a nurse maid and in the job as a nurse maid she had a very nice kind employer who gave her uh various reading material on politics and sociology and it was around this time that she started writing she married at the age of 19 and she had two children however a few years later she felt very imprisoned in the marriage so she abandoned her family she later married another person uh called Gottfried Lessing he was a central member of the left book club which was a left-wing organization and they also had a son um again they diverged in 1949 and she did not marry again I am talking a lot about her marriage uh especially because to give you the background behind the child uh because Lessing also had abandoned her children and uh um is my voice clear it's clear okay yeah yeah it's very clear yeah okay so uh lesson uh London in 1949 with her younger son Peter now gone now it's gone can you hear now yes yeah now now you can okay okay sorry um so yes so uh so she moved in 1949 with her younger son Peter uh to pursue her writing career and socialist beliefs so she had her first marriage also she had left it because she was feeling imprisoned uh in uh her inability to pursue uh her Communists and socialist beliefs so uh again the same thing repeated so she left it left them and she moved to London uh she left the two older children with their father uh Frank wisdom so she later said that at that time she saw no choice for a long time I felt I had done a very brave thing there's nothing more boring for an intelligent woman than to spend endless amounts of time with small children I felt I wasn't the best person to bring them up I would have ended up an alcoholic or a frustrated individual intellectual like my mother um but uh it's said that the fifth child uh probably was written later on with some regrets of how she had broken up her happy family and uh we'll see about that a little later uh so as well as campaigning against nuclear arms she was also an active opponent of upper teeth which led her to being banned from South Africa and Rhodesia in 1956 for many years and on 21st August 2015 a five volume secret file on Lessing built up by the British intelligence agency's MI5 and MI6 was made public and placed in the National Archives the file which contains documents that are redacted in Parts shows Lessing what's under surveillance by British spice for around 20 years from the early 1940s onwards her associations with Communism and her anti-racist activism are reported to be the reasons for the Secret Service interest in Lessing or disaffected by all this and also turning away from Marxist uh political philosophy Lessing became increasingly absorbed with mystical and spiritual matters towards her later years and she devoted herself especially to the Sufi tradition yeah so Doris Lessing has one uh has received various Awards and recognition as can be seen here and the most notable of which is of course her Nobel Prize in literature in 2007. uh she was offered a Dame Hood in 1992 however she declined it as she said it was an honor linked to a non-existent Empire later she accepted appointment as a companion of Honor uh at the end of 1999 and she also accepted when the Royal Society of literature made her a companion of literature um so the Nobel Prize uh she was the oldest winner of the literature price at the time of the award and she was the third oldest Nobel Laureate in any category also she was only the 11th woman to be awarded the Nobel Prize for literature by the academy which was in its 106th year and when she was told that she has won the award by journalists who were gathered outside of their house she said oh Christ uh she said upon hearing the news and added I couldn't care less uh I think she was about 84 or something like I think she was 84 years when uh she wanted 84 or 88 I'm not very sure she died in the a in 2013 at the age of 94. and in fact in 2017 just 10 years after the award her Noble medal was put up for auction um so this is only the second time that a noble medal has come up for auction uh and uh is so let's get on with the the fifth child so uh the fifth child is a Gothic horror novel it was first published in UK in 1988 and it has been translated into several languages this was Doris lessing's 35th novel and it was written when she was the of the age 68. in the fifth child Miss Lessing wrote of an attractive family with four children that is Shattered by the birth of the fifth a monstrous aberration she said the book tapped a reservoir of inner grief and she was outraged at the response to the novel which she said was at once pigeonholed as being about the Palestinian problem genetic research feminism anti-Semitism and so on so uh we'll also see a little bit more about uh you know why why she felt all these things at that point of time um but the uh truth is that she says that it was nothing it's just a story and it's supposed to be enjoyed as just a story Ben in the world is the sequel to the fifth child this was published 12 years after the publication of fifth child and its uh shows Ben into adulthood and uh in the absence of the uh love at home uh did any of you get a chance to read Ben in the world tulika or Shamil Raji I read it man oh great wonderful both the books okay did you I didn't read it I I read the synopsis on Wikipedia and I was not uh up to it at all okay okay but uh but I think of course fifth child is much better right than benefits but I will discuss about it somehow I felt this one is better so that one particularly the conclusion of that when in the world otherworldly I could not connect with that conclusion correct correct okay please so both books is portrayals of Ben are indebted to the radical psychiatrist Rd Leng who believed that psychological breakthroughs could be achieved through breakdowns and that shizropenia is the same response to an insane world forming a rather romantized notion of Madness now uh critics have identified Ira Levin's novel Rosemary's Baby as an influence on lessing's novel uh drawing comparisons between Harriet and Rosemary's difficult pregnancies uh I I'm have you any of you read Rosemary's Baby it's one of my favorites I think this is with a movie also now you've made a movie out of it I have I think I have watched the movie okay Mia Mia what is her name the actress was MIA Coppola I I can't get the name and uh and if I'm right Rosemary's maybe was made as a movie twice one in the recent times in one last movie also right yeah yeah yeah twice twice I have seen I think I have seen both yeah I have not read this book I shall do now uh it's a little it's it's somewhat disturbing and scary like this one only but it's fun really I don't have an idea thank you oh okay thank you yeah so uh the fifth Choice uh child another the historical context behind it is that it's a novel which is set in the 1960s and uh in the 1950s the British Society was very uh regimented and there were a lot of traditional beliefs 60s was considered the age when uh Europe and America was in the grips of left-wing political movements there was more freedom there's more modern thought which is coming in however uh there's the actual political turmoils nothing is mentioned in the book um however here the main uh you know context which uh Doris is trying to show is that Harriet and David meet in 1965 just as the sexual Revolution is gaining speed and uh but here we see Harriet who's a virgin and was very skeptical of the pill and she wants to stay at home with a large family you know and all this is what the 60s were fighting against so Harriet is a person who's more fitting with the 50s Idols uh than with the counter cultural changes of her era so it's worth noting that at a time when recreational drug use civil rights socialism and the controversy of nuclear technology filled the headlines none of these topics is mentioned by the lavats in the novel it's as though they are shutting themselves off from The Real World in their removed mansion in the country so some of the themes which uh are shown in the book are actually drawn from the author's life and her feelings itself so one is uh she always had this feeling that she could never go back home um she was very outspoken about her politics throughout her life and this caused her to be barred from entering Rhodesia in South Africa for her resistance to the white minority Rule and for her uh Rhodesia and South Africa was actually home because I she had lived there for more than 25 years however London was more new so this ban uh was something which was painful to her so her pain is reflected in the eyes of Ben when his family never accepts him he is banished from home sent away to an institution and he's kept away from his siblings as much as possible he also never has a place to call us home and the other concept which is kind of uh played around here is uh Harriet is in essence a character who is as different from Doris Lessing as possible so what is this concept of a fit mother is something that Doris has tried to explore over here so when Lessing moved to London she took with her only her youngest son At first she is quoted as saying she felt brave for doing this and for pursuing her writing and political Passions but maybe by 1988 at the time of this publication and towards the end of her life she felt the whole ethics of her decision she felt like a criminal she felt she had destroyed a perfectly good family and she saw that she didn't know when to quit when she was ahead because later even the politics for which she had actually left the children was something which sought for her and she removed herself from all those uh organizations too so the fifth child is filled with so many impossibilities and Catch-22 situations within motherhood that will stand out and gouge you so comparisons can be made also to Lionel shrivels terrifying we need to talk about Kevin um this is another book which uh have any of you read we need to talk about Kevin and it's absolutely amazing and a terrifying read um do pick it up um true true I had read the synopsis like a million times and I know I have to get to it but yes did you did you feel this one also disturbing tulika the fifth child quite yes I could finish it only because it was short and quick and okay I have some very very strong feeling about the book I'll we'll talk about it I remember you asking me how do you like it like disturbing is the only word that came to mind yeah okay it's I I don't know if what I felt is what others felt too but okay we'll come to it sure yeah um okay so finally yeah we are coming to it so do you think something's wrong with Ben what's your personal thought when you read the book everything was wrong with you yeah that she is monstrous and so many other things from the moment he was confused until the last committed the second that is equal if we go back it is definitely one of these things are wrong and not only things are wrong with him where he was there particularly in the possible character she created a catastrophic that the Lord's family Mr sisters [Music] and subsequently when he went to society one first one within home and secondly within Society so women Society both the places when he was a lot of wrong things for whatever reason it is the interesting point is he was he is not aware of that he is cruel that is the thing yeah that is even more disturbing he doesn't know he acts just acts that's all there is no application of Mind there and the attitude he is also paranoid maybe he asked and hit subjects in so many things happened uh when I read the book for the first time might have been probably about some 10 years back yes and uh I from that time I felt very strongly that it's written in a way that there's something wrong with Ben but I felt it's something wrong with how he's been brought up right from day one right he had even brought up properly he would have been able to improve himself he would have been a better better handling but there was definitely something not full hundred percent you know he was not I don't know whether to use the word normal because there was something wrong he had he kills the dog and there is something off but his handshake made it just like a million times worse made him totally unfit for society yeah so I I just took out some points which I felt about when like uh since I've read the book a couple of times you know uh already these are so some things which I just felt um so I'll just share it with you so I was just trying to see the issues which we kind of see with Ben in the book and my reasoning behind it okay so one thing we see that she has a very difficult pregnancies and she tries to blame my I don't know what is there in my stomach and and all these things but it's isn't it to be expected she's had five babies in eight years okay so how can you expect a pregnancy to go so smoothly the fifth time then you've like hardly you've not even given yourself time to recover uh she says he's a big baby he's uh 11 pounds 5 kgs uh 11 pounds is approximately five kgs so I'll just show you something I had um one minute okay um yeah it's here so this is a child which was born in Indonesia he's 19 pounds okay and uh the heaviest baby which was being born till now in the world is about 10 kgs my God okay so this is another child no and all these are normal have been normal deliveries also and the children are doing very well nothing there's been no issue okay only the kid which was born as 10 kgs 22 pounds in U.S he kind he passed away in some time but uh but otherwise all these other kids are doing completely okay and he was only 11 pounds by the way this is like 16 pounds and this is 19 pounds no I I don't know somehow I don't feel this uh really anything which is a you know big mistake with him so it could be something which is completely a hormonal thing or some you know missed Gene which kind of shows up in him and uh okay he's always hungry he keeps feeding possibly she wasn't making sufficient milk she was having constant pregnancies and fatigue she wasn't eating properly she wasn't taking care of herself so maybe he was hungry it could have been a very simple reason maybe he was hungry and um Okay so yeah one more one more thing was okay she shouts and screams he's shot in a room and he's ignored all day I think even an adult who's shut in a room all day would shout and scream forget about a child okay he kills a dog and a cat so this is a very very true incident uh I had been to a friend's house and she's got this I think the child must have been about uh one year or one and a half years old and they have these pet goldfish in a tank so she was telling me that you know he loves uh looking at the Goldfish he enjoys seeing it and she went inside to bring something he put his hand inside he took out the Goldfish gave it a squeeze and he's showing it to me I was stunned okay I don't know what to say I don't know I am absolutely stunned he loves it and he's hugging it so hard please put it inside so while you met Ben [Laughter] do we call it cruelty that's yeah see that's a different thing he might have been curious he wouldn't have known you can see it as a reality but from his level it could be a play a game yeah he could have been just you know he just showing maybe his love by hugging it too closely or maybe he did something but again another thing is the cat and dog are dead and they assume that it is him no one has seen it she implies that it's him it's only implied yeah and also the mother reacts in a way that maybe it could be him you know um which may kind of passes on to everyone so everyone feels oh maybe it's only an apprehension we don't have a solid evidence correct I suppose then he hurts his siblings again this is I think this is the most uh exaggerated thing hurting siblings hurting friends I think is a quite common streak among boys especially being the mother of yeah I know that but he shows No Remorse archana that's another uh because most kids do feel sorry when they are you know when they hurt somebody or yeah maybe but you know what I was thinking maybe he doesn't know those emotions at all right exactly yeah the consequences he doesn't know what he is doing yeah that's the problem right so that could have been taught to him right only exactly yeah yeah absolutely that I agree over time because like toddlers are not aware of this and they learn but he's slow in that aspect yeah he's never been taught you are very correct you should have been talking this position he's very character when actually is this Harriet says I shall send you to that institution again he gets himself checked so he becoming violent or something it gets reduced he becomes normal what he told that you will again be sent to the institution be careful so he understood as you just said he should have been told so I felt that it's more of you know more of unfit mother she wanted some very Scenic dream and uh being a fifth child is compared with all his four siblings who might have been softer kids or you know more uh Karma kids but I felt that he is problematic only because she feels he's problemating only because he's different from his siblings but otherwise he could just be a child with some hormonal issues because we she tells that he's short she tells that he Stoops and he's large in size so all these sound more like a hormonal thing and also he's maybe hyperactive he's not sleeping he's climbing Windows he's screaming he's noisy all this sounds for me like things which my son has always done so when we bought the house I refused that I will not come for the Puja I won't even sit for the Puja the work was supposed to commence after the Puja is done I said I won't come for the Puja till the grills are up it sounds familiar yeah because my son wanted whether he can fly like Spiderman and this whole day in an emergency basis I had to put the grills all my balconies so it was the same I was like I'm in refuse even to have a Puja in the house unless the girls are there so these are I think just because one child didn't climb a window doesn't mean that any child shouldn't climb a window I think it's a quite a normal thing shouting screaming noisy not sleeping all everything sounds normal to me frankly you know that's that she is tired after it's the fifth child she is tired she's had a very calm and a smooth period till now so that doesn't mean that there's some problem with the child it's what I feel friends yeah I can't blame the author I thought she was implying that there's something wrong that he's some other foreign tribe who has been I don't know what she was yeah yeah what was she trying to say I mean more than Harriet I thought there was something uh with a narrator right so I I wrote about that too so that's also a very interesting thing of how she does it in her writing okay so so all the little things which make her worried only seem to get worse because she treats him differently she locks him up does not allow him to interact normally he's just a small child he's not even started school but she sends him off with a stranger and his Gan who are known for smoking and drinking and fast motorcycles and everything so a normal mother wouldn't send a child who is below three on a you know fast motorcycle with some stranger right you wouldn't do that and do they even feed him so she he she finds it very surprising that he eats a lot when he comes back how do you know what those kids whether they even fed him anything all the while so I feel she is the person who must be arrested properly for negligence and abuse you know others around her treat him differently only because the parents treat him so I think a lot of uh you know behavior of others in the family or friends or strangers towards a child is defined a lot by how the parents behave in a particular situation so um yeah so also the worst part is when she shuts him uh down in an institution so she brings him back because she knows she cannot forgive her cruelty if she doesn't but at the same time she keeps tormenting him with the fear of sending him back I don't know again whether that's the right way to do it so he loses all the trust which he has on people at home who are supposed to actually love and care for him and finally she just abandons him when she abandons him he's only 11 years old he's a mere child and she does not even give him an address to reach out to and I think Ben has been only because of her yeah it is that's what I feel I I don't know I feel from he never had a chance nothing to do with the genetics maybe he had some issues um maybe he had some abnormal change that is her boyfriend okay okay yeah and also a little Sympathy for the mother nature we can't abandon or give up that boy is not able to withstand the pressure the boy created no even if even if the child is you see many home I don't know I mean people having mentally child also they have very difficult life the mother sometimes they hit the correct Point parents actually who have a child with the Down Syndrome it's very much grows the voice so heavy as the girl they have to carry on their shoulders and airport has been so much difficult reactions because she had four kids but further she wanted it is not in her hand that this should be an abnormal change she wanted a big house big children she actually she lived the way she wanted like the other our said there is listing that is what the importance of balance between these two Harriet tenders she we lived in the way she like and she also knew it in the way she liked it correct just that I I felt that if suppose instead of the fifth child if he was the first child what would have happened and unless he says something they are not happy because we are happy somewhere Sometimes some dialysis is there in the book something anyway so because the society is so built actually and that happened only mothers are blamed um that is true yeah mothers but then everything is on the shoulder of your mother absolutely right I said there is no sympathy or empathy is definitely that is one more aspect of this you know which is what I would mentioned here that the doctors teachers everyone they accept him as a person but they don't acknowledge that he has any differences at least if they acknowledge it then they can do something to change the situation you know very correct because definitely definitely different from the way others look at who thinks anything about him everyone is very happy when he's gone institution even actually David insist let him be there we are only having four kids not five and everyone celebrates all siblings and other things not in prison in their lives as well I I just always have this you know feeling he never got a chance he never got a chance at all but not enough yeah right from day one nothing he's never got a chance to he because he does try right even he who sits and watches a movie with them he's tries and laughs when they laugh so he wants to fit in yeah but he's unable to yeah did not facilitate his proper growth correct correct that's what I feel you know did not give do any hand holding to him did not do any help they were not empathize because that is how the society is built now yeah Special institutions as you just said our special places where actually such special kids are good exactly so the same thing like the child whom I was telling you who was who had squeezed this uh goldfish at that time he's totally he's fine now he's normal I don't think he'll ever want to do that to any goldfish was an aberration we don't know yeah so you know I that's what I just feel that I always feel very sad for men right from the first time I read it I always feel he never got a chance from his point of if you look at it he's not at fault yeah so even when she writes a letter to invite people to her home she tells Ben is not going to be there why should she mention that right that sounds so bad to tell people my son will not be there so you can come no no because of the rest of the people they don't want she is very clear that they will they're not going to tolerate Ben they are not going to accept them she's very clear and then she's trying because you see she's trying because because they she feels that everybody is blaming her because now Ben is so after Ben came the whole life changed so she just thought maybe the rest of the family are going to have some bit of happiness it's going to be like all time so that we will try to live a normal life a normal rather than vacation at least rest and the husband is blaming her everybody is blaming her so naturally she just yeah blaming her was also very bad I said you know because not mine so you have to give all sympathy to Mother yeah I I think I have a lot of Sympathy For The Mother exactly I just wish she had stood up for him more not like this it's why should if the others don't come it's fine I don't care but my son is more important to me and he will be a part of the family would have been something I would have liked her to see but even the family didn't want to I felt very sorry for her because she she doesn't dislike him the way like she's not able to wash her hands of him as the others have so hard no there are four more children how many people you can fight yes yeah you have to take sides you need you see because that is difficult for her also no you have to understand that she feels she is being unfair to the four other kids exactly that is the thing yeah isn't it relationship okay you have kind of softened my feelings to the mother yeah yeah I mean I'm horrified [Laughter] I I feel all I have seen many people with mentally children I mean where I live my downstairs neighbor she has a son her eldest son she is mentally abnormal and now she herself she is around 70 the lady and her son the Elder son is must be around 40 I mean he's around 35 40 and the younger one is uh another three four years younger to the Elder one and her husband is also not keeping well so it is so difficult for a lady she takes care and the whole family is their whole life is different totally so correct it is very very difficult to have one child I mean yeah it is tough yeah it is very tough I feel very sorry total burden total blame everything is born my mother only that is our societal condition yeah I mean I have a friend who's uh children are doing this she could have even put him I feel in some hostel or something like that right that would have even done with that I feel he should he would have been much better than what he was probably not there archana yeah and at home again she's ruined everybody's life like kind of they all are kind of blaming her I mean am I home all my sympathies are with the mother sorry to say this is a fact actually there is no other character who can champion and David is something else but that's the suffering is undergone by Mother Only um but I think you know it wouldn't have come to that extent itself had it been better right from beginning that's what is my feeling you know no you see if batting him differently no she would have treated him differently if you would have been the first child or maybe second maybe second also but fifth child is something very different when you cannot yeah that's why there is this uh very beautiful quote you know by I think it's by uh David's mother I think where she says that if you're very rich you can have a lot of children if you are very poor you can have a lot of children however people like us we need to take care of our children also so it's better you have less yeah exactly that is that is it that is a very nicely summed up then he goes to the institution I'll read out that paragraph very heart touching actually sure please if you permit me man a baby like a comma a great falling head and start of a body then something like a sick insect an enormous bulging eyes among the strip vaginities that were leaves a small birds or blood and flesh guttering and melting a doll with the turkey swollen limbs his eyes wide and blank like blue parts and its mouth open showing a swollen little tongue a lanky boy was refused one half of his body sliding from the other a child seemed that first glass marble but then Harriet saw there was a no that Twisted it was all fear it seemed to scream at her that is how she described that Institute yeah it's a very very yeah I remember this heart touching reaction foreign [Music] I think I also feel now so now you have to revise these are unfit to use the unfit you said unfortunate mother or something not unfit and she fights back and everything she doesn't happen so many battles correct that is true definitely fighting so many battles without the support of anybody anybody finally yeah but whatever he did in that initial you know that first maybe four or five months of his uh after he was born I felt was completely normal ordinary behavior of uh you know any Active Child I I just was feeling very bad that he has been every uh you know every step she has taken has only been like uh increasing whatever little difficulties of you know either uh adjusting with Society or some children do find it difficult to socialize do you find it difficult to adjust do find it difficult to make friends or uh you know be soft or be kind or something and I think that's such a a very very normal kind of a thing which voice is lost again you muted yourself yeah still gone foreign media is okay yeah five minutes it's okay we are waiting no problem [Laughter] yeah yeah it is I mean you never I read it in one goal like oh great okay but I'm back yeah okay okay um yeah so let's proceed okay so the uh one of the interesting things which uh I think um Doris does in the book and uh which is why we have very strong opinions about the characters is there are these two kind of narrative tools which are used so one is called as an overt narrator and one is a covert narrator so over narrator may be a character in the story or a narrator which is intruding from outside the story and a covert narrator is one which just presents the events and allows logic and the characters to play out their roles in a normal way they don't try to influence the reader's judgments on characters and events now the narrator and the fifth child is an over narrator and many things which we see uh is from the eyes of the narrator along with our own maybe personal our own personal reactions to things which we have experienced probably so he often indirectly addresses the reader and while in truths from outside the story for instance the main example in this is when the narrator's attitude towards David's stepmother Jessica uh she's not shown in a very good light and it's very obvious that our narrator doesn't feel friendly towards her and this kind of influences our view of her but if you go and read Jessica's role in the book there's actually nothing she's done which is wrong or which is bad or uh you know which kind of maybe um uh separates David and his father or David and you know whatever there is no nothing like that but the narrator's attitude towards David's stepmother kind of uh feeds on us too so when I was reading about uh this narrative Tool uh I had this feeling that maybe in some ways um you know uh Doris lessing's uh feelings towards uh uh the child has been a little bit um how she described the child and how uh strongly I feel about uh Harriet's role in um you know in bringing not been could have been a little bit influenced because of this kind of narration coupled with my own experiences in bringing up my kids so uh I feel a lot of things which have been written about Ben kind of draws parallel with my own life also so my sons are very mischievous especially my Elder son has been very mischievous very difficult and I've had experiences where you know the teachers tell me it's so difficult to keep him in the class then tulika you may be remembering a lot of them [Laughter] we've had so many you know so many experiences and it felt many times like I'm the only one supporting him against the whole world you know I've had a lot of such experiences um while bringing him up and now you will not be able to recognize the same person I'm talking about wrongly as soft as a cat or I don't know what to say as silent as soft and the most uh non-problematic child I would call him I you know exactly the same exactly is it oh my God so this is very interesting this overt narrator because um even I got the impression that she is kind of um when she talks of Ben the author that's why I say I blame the author not the mother she kind of projects him like he's some Neanderthal some other you know some other tribe or some primitive um somebody born with a primitive gene or something yeah you know what that does to you is when you like I read the book 10 years back 10 11 years back so and when my son was maybe four or five or something like that that's when I first read the book and I was in the midst of all this I was right in the midst of all this and I was feeling so angry what is he doing which is big deal what is he doing which is so wrong there's nothing right and then I'm realizing it now you know when I read more about her writing style and her way of narration I'm realizing that's because I'm experiencing that and now I'm trying to be defensive against that narrator hey what you're saying is wrong it's not necessary when it's not like that so actually that's a very uh interesting way of telling a story like you influence the reader without the reader being aware of like aware of it correct but at the same time if it was a reader who never had the experience of having such a child or having to be with that child they would feel for the child feel against the child they would feel yes this is something bad yeah right right right so very interesting so that's a very very interesting way of her writing which is all which is what I think coming out in the book yeah rather underhand way of writing yeah so um there's actually uh but the fifth child is not considered her best book her best book is supposed to be the golden notebook golden notebook yeah have any of you read it no yeah it's about what almost yeah it's almost autobiographical yeah it's a lot about feminism I think right okay I thought that you would say I've seen the film no yeah good book oh the grass is singing and this one singing is the first book Is it yeah so she comes to London with the manuscript of the grass is singing that's how I think if the story goes and her in her personal life so but she becomes uh she gets that International theme and everything only after the golden notebook so that's like one of her [Music] [Music] [Music] and the way now your explained about overtime forward narratives that are working style is also different that is a thing that's the way out for putting things in this narration thank you and to imagine that she studied only till the age of 13. she's not had any formal education after that the auto did act she led everything on her own really amazing great oh she didn't pull on well with her mother she is such a complex as as a child also she must be a complicated child that is why the mother must not be right yeah mother is taken to very disciplinarian when she was very strict okay she didn't like to remain under her that's why from 15 she is 13 years actually it is very difficult leave your home and go away settle outside yeah and then if not her childhood must not be a happy one obviously and it is complicated family life hmm so um continuing with it uh so reading more into the story so uh I came across this interesting article about the fifth child in New York Times so um readers have had very strong reactions to the novel Mr Mrs Lessing said which pleases her she's even thinking of writing a sequel this is this was before well in the world uh came out so but other kinds of reactions are bothering her the comments of some critics and academicians who regard the novel as a moral Fable or a commentary on the disintegration of society I just laughed she said God knows how many things they've said this book is really supposed to be about there are lists of them each one laid down with total Authority one American writer said it was really about the Palestinian problem my favorite is an Italian journalist who said what it was about was the migrant labor problem in Europe I said I thought well you can't top that one what really fascinates me she said is this need that that is so strong now that if you read a work of the imagination you instantly have to say oh what this really is is so and so reducing it to a simple formula because that's what they are doing this story has Disturbed them in some way so they make it safe this is partly because if you do this to a book you don't have to think about it anymore you don't have to be affected by it we like pre-packaged simple messages and statements we don't like things that are complicated that perhaps there isn't a solution to and there's no solution to the problem of this book there's no right way to behave maybe people get upset by that I don't think we like dilemas we like to think we can solve everything but we can't always a permanent anguish they're beautiful actually yeah and there is no solution to the problem of this book she herself has concluded that's really where exactly [Laughter] that's so good yeah yeah [Music] so actually my first son used to be very mischievous very active very mischievous he wouldn't sleep all night and like I said he would climb into Windows I have had so many emergency room visits you know uh once in our same week we I had two emergency room visits and the doctor said maybe you should become my wholesale patient so so I've had like all these experiences and uh after that my statement my second son was born and you know I would feel that he's an angel so I would feel that this boy actually sleeps he sleeps for two three hours in the night which is like great wow amazing so it never struck me that sleeping only for two three months in the night is also bad you know because he's so much you compare yourself with one child with another though we don't want to do it but somehow you know in when you are in the same house we end up doing that I guess to our children and then I had this friend who had come home and she had she was having some she had some BP issues and all that stuff so we met she was she used to stay in our building only so she had come home and uh that time my younger one was there he was running around the house and which was quite normal so I was quite okay about it this friend got very upset so she was like you know my every time he climbs on the dining table my BP is shooting up so next time please let's not meet in your house let's meet somewhere else you know or sometime when you're free or sometime when he's sleeping or something I'm feeling so troubled and Disturbed my heartbeat is going on whenever I see him climbing the thing and I was like this is like my most normal child yeah so I'm completely okay with him climbing the table he knows he's supposed to you know okay this is how you climb this is how you get down you teach them they are fine but uh so I was just thinking oh what would a share have done if she had seen my Elder one he was like even much much more so I I think so much of um how we behave and how we react to situations is also something which determines how people react to that situation I I don't know if I'm putting it rightly uh actually what you perceive as normal may not be normal to others exactly okay that is the thing yeah so she had she was quite an old lady so she had kids who would just sit in one place where they are made to sit yeah for her that is normal yeah that is what it is but for us it's different like exactly and I would be worried if my kid just sits in one place yeah I don't I I myself I've been a very difficult kid for my mother so again you know I I think when you can accept them for what they are nurture them slowly and tulika used to do this so amazingly well she used to be so patient and I think I learned a lot about thank you so much for you oh my God that's seriously I'm seriously healthy I'm telling you oh my God we are giving you a standing ovation okay [Music] I would be seeing her so patiently that too with two and she would be stupid yeah that is true exactly we made into all the time and always one would be crying crying you remember that I just learned to be happy at least they cry one at a time yeah one would be happy yeah the biting the hitting we've seen it all I mean yeah so when I when I read it you know that was my only feeling my feeling was that you know when I was patient the child changed right the child became patient it it also kind of mimics our Behavior now to some extent and they grow up they change they become quieter when they grow up when they have that loving environment they kind of change they become soft and dark yeah yeah so here he has he doesn't have that that's true yeah anyway so uh these are some quotes which I uh liked from the book by the way this was what uh Doris Lessing said about writing the book so she says I hated writing it it was sweating blood I was very glad when it was done it was an upsetting thing to write obviously it goes very deep into me somewhere I think she drew a lot from her childhood that's why she felt so strongly about the book yeah and I think she also drew a lot from her treatment of her children or children correctly exactly yeah exactly the book is reflective of her own life oh life true so uh these are some exactly this is the code which you yeah so you want things both ways the aristocracy yes they can have children like rabbits and expect to but they have the money for it and poor people can have children and half of them die and expect to but People Like Us in the middle we have to be careful about the children we have so when so we can look after them in case she had more help if she had someone who was Hands-On with Ben or something like that uh her life would have been so much more different exactly yeah actually the basic premise of that life was wrong no yeah the basic idea that we will just go and live far off in the country and have constantly have as many children as we want and then buy a big house which we can't afford and we'll have exactly I mean how they just assumed that the father would help and by whatever you may say stop it yeah so uh she wanted to be acknowledged her predicament given its value this was also one thing which is very smart which she never got yeah from the doctors and she doesn't nobody nobody I don't think we are though we are the only people who understand s correct um Paul was even more difficult than Ben but he was a normal disturbed child not an alien so this is the words of the narrator so see slowly now when I read this and I heard that word alien I get defensive someone also who reads it might feel oh so sad yeah okay I was terribly annoyed when I read this and the author what does she mean by that that whole idea of begging him as something unworldly as this at least not who somebody who doesn't fit into this world correct I that just annoyed me I didn't what is she trying to say this is a very very clear example of uh you know the over the narrator yeah I think like no she's kind of manipulating your opinion that is what it is so my mother didn't join the discussion today but she also finished reading it and we had a nice discussion about it on all these points she's forgotten how difficult I was by the way after I think he's some alien creature maybe he's come from some space or something maybe some monster born from some other world or something like that you know and I was like no not at all yeah so yeah so he watched the children particularly Luke and Helen all the time he studied how they moved sat down stood up copied how they ate he had understood that these two the older ones were more socially accomplished than Jane and he wanted to be that right so that's why he's trying and he ignored Paul all together so when the children watch television he squatted near them and looked from the screen to their faces for he needed to know what reactions were appropriate if they laughed then a moment later he contributed a loud hard unnatural sounding laugh and this power sounded such a normal thing for a child to do um Sarah and William's unhappiness their quarreling had probably attracted the Mongol child yes yes of course she knew one shouldn't call them Mongol uh again you know uh she feels that if you're happy then everything is fine only for those who are unhappy or who have something else they will have something uh wrong with their child or something wrong which would happen to them so uh these are the words of Harriet yeah this is so but the last thing uh before they slept the other children closed their doors quietly from inside this meant Harriet could not go to them to see how they were before she went to bed or if they were sick she did not like to ask them not to lock their doors nor make a big thing of it by calling in a Lock's birth and having special locks fitted openable from the outside by an adult with a key the business of the children locking themselves in made her feel excluded forever shutout and repudiated by them sometimes she went softly to one of their doors and whispered to be let in and she was admitted and there was a little Festival of kisses and hugs but they were thinking of Ben who might come in and several times he did arrive silently in the Dobby and stabbed in at the scene which he could not understand this was our very very heart-wrenching for me he could not understand he was not feeling jealous yes that is a thing yeah he couldn't even understand what is happening he has no feeling he doesn't understand yeah he has to be stimulated by sibling to laugh or his wife and that feels so sad this was a very flat bit Yeah second book he gets exploited to the hill that causes further sadness in the reader he overlooked and yet why did she say that everyone in Authority had not been seeing men ever since he was born this is what I spoke about so nobody sees him differently when she saw him on television in that crowd he had worn a jacket with its collar up and a scarf and was like a younger brother perhaps of direct he seemed a stout-school boy had he put on those clothes to disguise himself did that mean he knew how he looked how did he see himself would people always refuse to see him to recognize what he was so again you know that narrator comes in tries to tell us he's something else so people are refusing to see him to recognize what he was you can you can feel mother's anguish here yeah anguish um anguish in others not recognizing that he's different no no I think she's looking for sympathy for herself that she has a child like nobody's recognizing that he's different right yeah that's what he looks so normal in his clothes is what she's trying to say when she can't complain to anybody what kind of difficult time she is having that is what yeah she's kind of frustrated so everyone in Authority had not been seeing Ben ever since he was born so then nobody is seeing him differently they're just like Authority girl she means I think all the doctors teachers exactly that is yeah um yes I think yes we are done [Music] kind of yeah it's good discussion hashtag Justice for Ben yeah [Music] but uh you're kind of softened me up now towards the mother too good good okay so I'll stop the recording and then we'll discuss what are we going to read next yeah