Transcript for:
Exploring Careers in the Alcohol Industry

the intent is to find young people out there and tell them how they can get a job in owning a bar starting a liquor company working in a liquor company doing advertising for liquor companies because you guys are experts in this [Music] are you guys ready welcome each and every one of you uh thank you for coming the very first thing we do when we begin this off is introduce ourselves uh I know abishek very well already but I haven't spend time with the other three of you so maybe you start by giving us five minutes about yourself starting with okay we start yeah go minaki amazing so um okay okay we start from the beginning you're a bar owner so you're already a very cool person yeah I know that like I said I will pull your leg feel free to I'll do the I'll do the same trust me we need some alcohol and then we'll start no so yeah so I I started um my journey into this industry uh right from hotel management days so I did my hotel management from iimp Pusa New Delhi um and from there on uh uh in the second year of College just like most of us we needed pocket money for the pizza and beers and so we where did you do college IHM Pusa New Delhi so uh and finished my schooling in college from Delhi and since then I've been in Delhi okay so you went to college then uh yeah so uh I started bartending in the second year of college as a as a almost like a you there's something called odc's which are outdo do you have pictures from back there yeah yeah yeah now we should put that up okay then okay so that was my first experience behind the bar um I I also think that was also a very big turning point for me I was really lucky to have experienced really good uh you know space of work for the first time when you go um it was it was not a it was just a part-time job uh and you know you were just doing it for fun mostly for money and uh when I went behind the bar I started really enjoying it and I I felt like I don't know if there's a word for this I I really felt like this is my calling and I got what element of bartending actual bartending so I loved making drinks I loved serving drinks I love the part of hosting and talking to new people getting was the social element more or was it the mixing absolutely absolutely so bartending is a mix of many things of course the technical art of it of making drinks is is is primary but after that it's layer on layer on your personality and how sociable you are and how open you are to knowing new people talking to strangers and how you know what your personality is and I think bartending can bring that personality out in you it's very it's a very good comfortable space because you are also already in a space of enjoyment you're mostly there to relax so you also come with your guards down a little bit so I think from a consumer point of view it works really well and I had a great uh time in that second and third year of college bartenders tend to be particularly good-look um no I don't think so I I don't that I think that's not a good looking and good grooming are two different things and I would say that that's because when you're in a hotel background or hotel industry you're expected to be turned out well your hair is in place your nails are in place that's part of grooming and I feel that's also part of hygiene and because you're serving food you're serving drinks I don't want a Shabby looking person you know preparing my food for example it's the same way I don't want a Shabby looking person making drinks for me so I think grooming is where the center point is and after that of course you can be groomed well you can wear a beautiful designer shirt and look really good okay so Bart ending second year of college then and um after that uh when I was in third year U as expected most of the hotel management students back then it's I'm also referring to now 20 years ago back then um it was expected that now you'll become a hotel manager you'll become you'll get into Management training program and then then you get a suit and you're sorted right so it's it's the blue colar white colar part of it and my parents weren't very happy when I told them that I don't want to do hotel I don't want to be a manager in a hotel I'd rather be bartending and that was a difficult phase for us as a family as well but somewhere I took the decision to continue Bart ending I did a Bart ending course and I think that is when I realized the real yeah in India uh my business partner current business partner Yang du blama had just started his bartending school so we I was actually one of the first initial batches of kids who came out this was that that uh back then was this is 20034 and it four or five actually and this time uh funnily it was a 6-month course and you were supposed to after doing your classes also bartend so it was literally like 14h hour days 16h hour days and for some odd reason I I still enjoyed it a lot and I kept doing it I was at it uh and I think where the biggest U turning point I mean there was this whole moment where I was like okay I'm going to be a bartender I'm going to work in this this place and that place I was dreaming all these big dreams and then I realized that women are not allowed to bartend in IND India uh it's actually illegal today to certain states in India uh women are not legally allowed to serve also like even waitressing wise or be actually making drinks so that was quite a stop for me um I didn't have the option to actually move outside of India I was barely managing it in Delhi um that's when I kind of looked around and what to do and that time Yang do actually introduced me to somebody who had just started off uh this website called lio.com it used to be working for bage marketing companies trainings a lot of spa the space was the same uh just not B ending and actually was their first employee and I started with data entry and a lot of that but I actually still really wanted to be there so I continue doing it with uh little money and yeah so those those years were a struggle but I also think that I actually look back very very fondly at that time because those were my I feel I was very lucky to find the space to still continue in the industry without actually have the option to do uh while working in tell I got to travel a lot I travel all over India they were doing projects with bakadi with smof uh I was working extensively with these Brands these were the brands that were actually entering in these are Global Brands uh Multinational Global Brands and they were actually entering India for the first time and so they needed bartender training programs customer activation a lot of a lot of lot of below the line Activation so I was part of all these multiple project so I would actually take a flight every weekend to a different city so it was a Delhi Bombay Bangalore Hyderabad Kata Punjab Jaipur rur multiple cities uh I think that was like a intense crazy two years of my time and I loved every bit of it uh learned a lot interacted a lot with a lot of people I learned about what the corporate means how businesses work how all the other things work right what how does how is the spirit made I took courses to actually learn how a Jin is made or how a watka is made things like that um and continue to actually grow in the in that space and and and then I got my break in a company called diio which was actually it is still actually globally number one in the world and uh I started working with a brand called Captain Morgan uh very short stint that time it was a rum that launched and uh so they launched in Bombay so their office was here and then U head office was in Bombay and then in uh Delhi they launched so we kind of handled Captain Morgan and then I moved to peror Rica which is another liquor giant there I stayed for about three and a half years but during this whole time in 2 I can I have to tell you in 2006 I made my first Excel sheet of having my own bar you know and I still have that Excel sheet of all the cost in the world and at that time I called amid bman you know the founder of darber and at that time used to run a bar in uh in Delhi called forum and I took one hour of his time asking him how much does the class cost how much does the kitchen cost how much is how much do you pay a manager I had no idea how to build this sheet right so I built it and very nicely actually gave all the details heard me out and uh and then yeah the dream was alive and yang dup and I kept talking we were he was a trainer very well established you know bartender mixologist uh he's an author he's many many things and uh so we kept talking about doing something together starting our own bar and at that time I think the dream was to have a bar for people like us that was always the conversation we were like where are the bars where you go quietly sit chat have a good drink why are all the bars so loud why do they expect us to dance right now or you know dress up all the time you know where are the bars which when you go to London you go to New York you go to I mean West was our mostly that's our directional you know uh that that's how you get inspiration globally in the space of spirits and bars um and we used to always talk about it between us that where are the cool bars man like where are the there are pubs there are beer places there were like of course we've always had institutions which are which are amazing even at that time but good cocktail bars with cool bartenders talking to you and serving you and owners being being there for you does not happen here there are all you know owners who are who walk into you know the sap table and Friends and the managers are like it's it's a very different culture right in India when it comes to bars and so uh yeah so we kind of went through it and we went through looking for investors we had our conversations and finally we realized that nobody's going to give us money to start our bar and we really wanted to be in South Delhi that was our Dream but you know that what they say that God gives you the opposite of what you want and then we finally found a place in guro in a basement in guro it's still like kind of in the middle of nowhere is how a lot of people refer to it people who know this place it's called cocktails and dreams PE easy that's our first bar uh we started it in the basement uh young dup was the bartender I was the waiter that's how we like to put it and we had two more people to help us and we had about four people in the kitchen do you have live music in this SP yes I think I've been here amazing and you a regular customer who was there at least four times in a yeah like I told you suir was one of our first first uh how often does he come uh now you know he's married and he has a kid so should be there four times a week with four different is there a correlation being between being single and going out to a bar I think that time I think it just happened naturally because that was one of the cooler bars uh I mean that was the only bar which was close to home why did you go there shush uh because um I wanted to drink cocktails and every there were not too many places in the city at that point in time which would serve cocktails how many people walk into a bar for the taste of a cocktail and how many walk into a bar for for the people in the bar so majority of the people will come for the entire experience it's never one thing um yes cocktails are of course cocktails and food both are very much you know your Center that's your point of sale you have to sell cocktails and food otherwise you're not selling the lights and the table and the chair right so I have to make money from that so I have to get that right but other than that music lighting people servers all of it even the comfort of your chair like the number of times we have we have made our own Furniture ourselves even now today we are making our own bar and we're still making the furniture ourselves so it's like it's part of who you are right it's the craft of it and also you go to your bar and be like okay talk to talk to the bartender and be like okay I do not like this make me something else which was which was amazing and not too many bars would be doing that back back in the day yeah y dup was all about that he used to make drinks as for people so he I still know the drink that sucher used to have and to date he used to have this popcorn shop crazy person after every amazing it's amazingly it's a no-brainer okay so yeah so bars so bars are a lot about comfort and you know knowing people many many things so if I I can't just put like my finger to it but yes of course food drinks music Ambience if you just to make pillars there are four five big pillars service these are like you have to have them sorted and then everything else hopefully aligns so you started uh cocktail and dreams in 2012 yeah and then how did side car happen side car is Asia's world yeah we were part of world's list we are part of Asia list we part of we are number one in India for the last consecutive three years number one bar in India India which is so much more stressful than the international Awards I'm telling you really cuz it's pure man you know what I mean right Indians voting for Indians and being number one actually not because every time there's a competition in the country I know the top three who are the top it always be stop it that's not but you know it one by B I think will happen arit bars you know yeah but yeah forward is just yeah among the top forward forward bar indust is very small we all know each other from but how much would be your Revenue because side car is known for the best cocktails so between cocktails and spirit what would be the I'm I'm sitting in a very good 85% cocktails and the fantastic so I think moving on so you know when I heard about you first rias called me one day and he's like you have to invest in Goa Brewing Company I'm connecting you to him that's so sweet of ryaz what is the story of Goa Brewing Company and why are so many people vouching for you in a world riddled with many different Indian independent beer brands I think vouch ing is all their kindness I'm really grateful to who everyone but I think from a story um we I grew up in panim small town of Goa parents were worked as government employees mother father both went to work so we were literally you know had the whole town to ourselves it was very navigatable as kids great life um you know went to Hotel school because couldn't get into any engineering College I I could go to to some rural College of Engineering but that didn't seem exciting I took a year to school in go yes I went to school everything in Goa until uh I graduated your dad was posted there no no my dad was working in the he he joined as a land surveyor parents were first generation moving from Village to the city educated so their entire Focus was to educate us as kids a younger brother who also again lives in California and um while we were growing up I think U uh there was varied experiences also you know Goa is quite Charming that way in terms of um it had its own micro culture so you saw a lot of people Travelers tourist you know people visiting and you were also exposed to a completely different life which was very different from what you were living in your small town and uh then I joined Hotel school I went went to IHM Goa graduated but it really didn't feel like working in the hotels so I was just looking for a job and uh king fisher the beer company was hiring and I just went for an interview I had no experience they just I don't know offered me the job because I was extremely like you know en2 what year was this this was in the year 2006 so that was the first understanding of how you know the liquor industry works you know because beer operates almost like fmcg and when you are working for a for a large Beer Company you are the operational length and breadth of it is unlike any other alcohol category I think beer has to reach the last you wouldn't travel like for a wine you may go a little further but for beer you'll want it very close to your home it's it's very different so it operates very fast you order so if in a liquor company order Cycles maybe once in a month in beer you get like every 3 4 days so ation Al very very exciting got got a sense of that then I got a job to work with pero Rica which is this French company great time to join them because it was it was entirely actually built by Indian Executives Paro and these he in Goa now that was then were you no I was in perno by then but perno had acquired it's very interesting that when uh the seams family which owned uh which was the world's biggest liquor company the the founder wanted to just sell out and there was nobody who could buy it so it was split between many people and nobody wanted to take the India business and perno got it and perno turned it around and today I think made it massively profitable yeah like 25,000 CR in Revenue it's I think the most profitable liquor company but entire so the DNA was very interesting while I was working at perno you had great Executives who were very supportive of talent so got to work within perno so from Goa to chandigar which was again like a complete 360° shock for me and I looked after marketing for Northwest India so got a very different sense of how India is then moved to the brand Team uh where I was given one of the biggest brands to manage for a short time I was looking after Royal stag which is I think I don't know if it's still the biggest but it was quite big so when did that campaign come no artificial flavors was it by you no no this was before me yeah no artific yeah that really that really this whole green whiskey story when I was there Royal stag became the number one in the world it was number one highest yeah biggest it's still number one right yeah I mean it I I don't know today like also that category is very it's it's it's number one is is it in revenue or in volume not Revenue yeah volume volum volum but there's a royal Challenge and these guys are sort of neck and neck most no no Royal challenges come down so now Royal stag is there yeah they say UB has 25% Market market share today is that approximately right UB with diio or you talking about the United is the beer compan with di with diio yeah it must be I think they will okay 300 million case indust so now like uh uh the diio has given off the uh less expensive Brands to uh inw earlier their market share would have been about uh close to about 35 yeah so now they'll be same about 2025 right interesting they didn't want to get very deep into the smaller cities and stuff they want to focus more on the those were the economy segments which makes no profit yeah so what was the opportunity you saw in Goa Brewing what sets you apart from the rest so while I was working I the only thing I used whatever income that I got was to travel so I initially with the small salaries I could travel in Southeast Asia just backpacked and when I finally got to go to the US I think this was somewhere around 20134 I was on a flight uh from London to New York and like a United Airways like the cheapest ticket right at the back you know so you know that's like that's and you happy about it that's luxury and I'm sitting there and I'm waiting for the trolley with like you know the with the drinks coming and I'm just very observant of people so I always I was just looking and there were all these kids who looked very hipster hipsterism was in and all the you know uh what do you call the turle Shell uh frames and everybody was picking up this green can and I was just super curious and this is taking so long it's a transatlantic flight so 20 30 minutes down and I'm just waiting and then it reached me and I said do you know what that green can is and she this woman just looked the and she said oh that's the last one it's your lucky day and that was an IPA that I never had an IPA i' worked in liquor for 10 years may not 10 years I must have worked in liquor for seven years IPA is Indian P Indian p and I cracked open the bottle can and I poured it had the first sip the burst of hop Aromas and like what authentic craft beer is and I was just like like you know I mean what am I what are we making can you elaborate a bit what is Indian P so it's a very interesting uh story so Indian Pale Ale um was made when the British couldn't ship fresh old beers to India because they would get spoiled on the journey it was on the sea so some Brewers in in uh London decided to increase the alcohol percentage and also add a lot of hops so hops are you know they're antibacterial but the E loves it so from a microbiological standpoint it what hops hops are a uh like it's a bird of a creeper it's very um botanical yeah it's a Botanical plant it's the bitterness and the aroma of beer essentially came from beer soer bitter so the main problem was when you you didn't have temperature control back in the Medieval ages and you still brewed beer you often found the beer turn sour and then the Brewers would just experiment with like the French Brewers would put something and and then somehow someone realize that okay if you put a lot of hops it controls the bacterial uh growth because you didn't have the sanitation of today and you didn't understand microbiology that well so in fact beer was given to you know Farm Workers as a ration because it was healthier than water because water be beer goes through the whole process of getting heated and cooked and so um so the the when this beer started coming to India it was made for India and when Indian breweries got set up I think the first ones in Solen and everywhere this shipping was not needed anymore so the the the style died for almost 140 150 years nobody really even heard of India P I think the Indian pallet uh did not it's not in at all even in the west it died because also it's it's way more bitter than uh green can you had on the aine Indian company or India Pale alses were never made in India until maybe 2015 for cat it's a category like how you have a stout so most of the because it was being shipped to India britishers called it IPA and then in the way like fortified Vines happen same way like they added High proof also it had a higher amount of alcohol in it yeah yeah little but still if you look at the market like IPA like when you want to a Beer Drinker try a new beer they don't usually end up liking an IPA they'll still go for a lger or a hiis because it's more bitter qu what would be the difference between Andy Coffee like we start with milky coffee and move too you know it's the same I think the palette Grows Right like it's the blue cheese and am yeah yeah it's all Evolution and you you know the the category really took off because there were like this very passionate you know absolutely you know authentic Brewers home Brewers in the west coast who decided to start um you know challenging the status quo of these big corporations so the big beer back in the day in America was all mild loggers and everything so these Brewers started making small batches I think and then the style that became very popular was IPA and it was invented by the Brewers like Stone Brewing Lagunitas the first generation craft Brewers and they also came with that great culture where they were really trying to they were also contemporaries of like you know the tech companies and you know very open work culture happening in the west at that time so this was like on the beer Direction so that's how IPA uh became popular so how did that relate with you starting go Brewing Company so I had a plan to go and visit like you know friends and travel in the US and see whatnot you know what were you doing back then professionally working I was working at in that that those days I was working in chandigar I think yeah for for perno okay so whatever money I saved I just would use it to so you saw this green can you were like IPA is great kikas then so I read the can I was like this is insane like how can we not make product like this and I was always like thinking within the companies What can you do to create new product I was very like trying to shake the those uh within that organization I just was I think waited I remember like pacing in the flight wanting for the doors to open when I landed I just went to the brewery that made it then I just kept traveling with going from one Brewery to other then I I I must have on that trip of 3 weeks I must have gone to maybe two or three breweries a day I didn't even meet my cousins I said like I was totally obsessed by the idea and it was like everyone was very open Friendly the whole culture part of it was very different from how like how Indian liquor companies were very secretive there was very what the M was called copy left like you big thing in alcohol the recipe not so much so Western Brewers just publish their recipes we also are very happy to you know like tell people what what style it is we describe it very in detail I think the Legacy Brands hold it tght it's the like like in ingredient is very very critical like only the chief Master blender it's called as a black book so like we don't share with anyone like only I have it and my blender would like you you are a legacy brand so started you know what I mean yeah okay so if I go to a wine store why do I pick Gua Brewing Company over another beer which is on the counter the first basic differentiator is it you know it is phenomenally different from any commercial beer like say for example I take a king fisher strong I take a Goa brewing beer I mean you could just taste it you will you will immediately realize and how the beer affects you quality is a factor of what in be so we are what we do I can speak you know because the word craft is also very Broad and liberally used but I mean I personally take it with a lot of seriousness and so we are absolutely uh like natural or nothing business where we don't even use any kind of extract or even fruit which has like processed by any Industrial company we would rather go straight and use as much as whole produce as possible so we'll Source our grains we'll work very closely so every part of your um the the beer that you're drinking if you read our label all the ingredients you will be able to know they they all which you would find in your kitchen it's nothing which is industrial or something so that's because we are not really aiming to produce you know One lakh cases from one like you know you're not scaling you're not so the bigger breweries probably would from one badge they would produce 20,000 cases and we would probably produce maybe 6 700 cases from one B so we work on slightly trimmed down equipment we've customized what scale is good enough where the quality doesn't uh get affected and work to make sure that you are so you know you're delivering a product that's that has a very good differentiation at the same time it also you know has that value we are Indians at the end of the if I'm going to pay 20 rupees more I want to taste it I want to feel it you know if I have five bottles of people's ler people say that I it doesn't blo them it's clean the next day is fresh because it's clean in terms of what ingredients go in making it and that's how much does it cost versus King Fisher so our beers would be um so king fisher let's say is about 50 rupe for a 330 ml just to give you a markup we will be at more than that is the pra prices is the cheapest in the country so we would and a Biser would be a 65 and you know so that's it very cheap yeah that's for the for the 330 and we would be at 90 which would be a 20 25% upgrade over the premium category and then we have beers in every category and what margins does a beer company typically work on so you know with extremely high level levels of efficiency if you are producing Mass macro loggers you probably get into the range of between 55% and because they also recycle a lot of bottles come back it's it's very efficient in terms of cost structure and it can be stretched all the way to 60 but not consistently because you also operate on commodity prices also coming malt prices go up glass prices go up year taxes and all don't taxes is out of your uh cost beond the taxes go up the prices also yeah that's what I'm saying taxes only affect this entire industry from state to state which you realize the Revenue taxes go to the the government I think what cleverly you have done is you have differentiated your product by pricing it higher I think that is the main thing but I think we also a little bit like Carpenters you know to be honest we make it at a certain cost we have a simple very clear idea that this is our margin structure we're not going to touch it we don't want it to be out priced we're not aiming for we want to create great quality product so philosophy of Goa Brewing is is simply you want to create beer which is in the home refrigerator we don't look at any other touch point we don't sponsor bars we bars keep our product for the product quality but we don't pay for entry into any bar like Mini's bar owner run bars would are great support system for us who appreciate quality you know right how big is Goa Brewing Company now in terms of uh sales sales I think we last year we finished with 27 lag bottles in the financial year and the money number for that so in terms of gross sales we would have crossed 20 CR in terms of sale yeah and you've gotten funded also no by DSG so one of the First Investments that you know so that was another long journey into figuring it out so so competition is Bea mainly be is actually a very different uh Play Because be's um be also gets majority of its volumes from the same category as haward's 5000 and Kingfisher strong where it's it's it's the base category where and certain States they really get a lot of volume I think we do not have any kind of a competition as such because I think we fall in the category of Brands which you know consumers really you know take make that effort to even go one stop a to get that product and they will buy a case and they will make sure that because that's the uh the mo interesting enjoy it huh enjoy it thank you do I say sh or okay so we already know about Shar that his youth was focused around going to cocktails uh before though but uh's bar four times a week with four different people yes when did the journey eye witness to a small part of it okay so when did you like get your act together and become a family man the most family is question in the most traditional sense Family Man happened what about 5 years back actually met my wife at a at one of my own events but I've always done events so since I was in school I was I was not the best student but I was always involved in organizing stuff for school with friends so I was I've always been an organizer uh so it was a very natural transition for me to be in the industry of entertainment um along the way I started post College I started getting artists down to the country um I Flo in my first company when I was about 17 18 years old where I would get a company called spotted club.com where I would send photographers across bars in Delhi Bombay Bangalore they would take pictures and upload it within 24 hours onto this website and um but I would always create experiences and I realized that the only way I could monetize this was via alcohol Brands so when I was 18 years old I got this artist into the country called Edward Maya for the first time and I was an 18y old had no idea about sponsorships I walked into the bakar's office randomly I stayed in gar I walked into bakar's office I got a meeting through the was really popular in Delhi uh subjective right now let's what do you call popular you want to put him above this right let's discuss that no he was massively connected extremely social like I said that's that that's my mode I just knew how to get people together yeah and I knew how to have the best parties and um but I did not have experience right so I was throwing these amazing parties I was making money of it but at a point of time I had a downfall so I remember these events how old are you know uh I'm 35 yeah I'm 35 there's something about this I have a couple of friends in Bombay and Bangalore who are really cool organizing great events at a certain point in their life they all have a change of heart where what was once really appealing and validating for them stops being validating at around the age of 35 35 40 why is that uh actually for me um I take great offense to this because when I watch some of these guys who are making making money having a good time being very social in many ways doing what they love why do they stop it and then try to do something completely different at a later half of the life I don't think I've stopped it at all at least from personal experience uh I realized very early whatever I do in life I'll have to build my business around it and I could not do a 9 to5 job I was very clear about that I had to be doing something in which I have fun so I had this this one party which did not go very well uh which was a very big talk of town it called it was called o it was a New Year party where we ran out of alcohol organization was not the best in one month's time I decided uh I'm going I was a small partner in a nightclub I sold that off what went wrong um the partnership that I was in at that point time who I partnered with to have this party that did not work out for me and my responsibility was was perfect what what I executed as part of my responsibility was was on point but I'm thinking Delhi someone shot somebody that's the same party I'm talking about oh my God this is a TR no but that's fine that that did happen that F no of course not that's have we don't have uh within one month time haven't ared yet oh God so so within one month's time um I quit whatever I was doing and I joined who's also mentor to me I I joined a company at a very low I was making lots of money but I realized that if I want to do what I want to do for the rest of my life around what I want to do which is entertaining people I have to understand how companies work so I joined rashan Abbas he was running a company called Encompass at that point in time I joined as an assistant manager at a very low salary but the three years I spent there all I did was understand invoicing taxation purchase order um how to vendor management give me the secret recipe to throw a killer party that everybody wants to show up to one line so what I do now is experience so what I learned from that and what I do now is the same thing I'm doing for 100,000 people across three cities with one IP that I run called gen Explorers Club it's just cotised right that time financing was I had to sell tickets to finance I to go behind sponsors to finance now financing thanks to these ticketing Partners has become much easier alcohol brands are spending more money on getting experiences people are getting people became more music sensitive they would come for certain acts so basically what I do now it's exactly what I doing back then but I'm more organized and I've built a successful business only focusing on the Alcohol industry so watch brands come to me luxury Brands come to me I say no to everyone what I know very well is alcohol I know how to I'm the I'm their friends right so I work with multiple of his brands I built out one of his gin Brands an important guy if he comes to the bar and says this is a cool bar then you his what he created this gin Explorer Club is one of the most fantastic properties yeah and uh it it's like a carnival music food the alcohol and it's like to a different level like for our Jin also Jessel which is now the largest luxury gin we had a launch in his GC and immediately it became popular so what he has created is so at that time also uh people were not okay Brands were not okay with partnering an event where other brands were involved so we were fortunate enough to get all the Gin Brands together back then the first GC at Olive at Olive that was so beautiful myv actually uh GC started when Anand at anand's bar so that's where the idea of GC started when there's a there's a gin boom which was going on because cocktail we were actually all the same founder of I know but that being said now gin Explorers Club will not only be gin Explorers Club we we'll be dropping Jin and we'll be entering more categories under the same Festival tequila is something which I'm very passionate about tequila is it really blowing up like we think or is it only in the affluent circles globally it's blowing up India will always be uh in the affluent but as the aswr report now it's it's actually growing three times which is a very but on a very small base so it's like saying one glasses have now to but it's growing faster than everything else right but the volume base is very small and it's only the top level Tequilas which are growing because if you see the lower level Tequilas they're not selling at all so we're still a whiskey market like we we will be a whiskey market for a really long time so so you run food talk India which is the largest food community in India that's how we started off but right now I'm focused on Anthem which is a marketing agency agency which focuses on the ALCO industry under that we have an IP called gen explorers club and I've service perno diio all these brands that do their marketing strategies activations events MH and along the way I built a beverage brand called Jade Forest because I wanted to be in the in the space so I was like I I can't create my own alcohol so I created a mixer brand why can't you create your own Alcon it's expensive um at that point of time I actually sat with Lama also uh at a point in time to create my own alcohol I was just scared uh red tapism every state has their own excise duties uh um and even while I run an alcohol agency people look at you very differently even when I go and apply for a license for a cocktail Festival but they look at you in a very different different way you're the shadiest of the lot yeah always but now it's changed where are you hanging out of who changed we're talking about larger sense of the word still very taboo I mean India always been taboo we've it's still a dark Market what that means is that you can still not advertise our it's all surrogate so we are under surrogate that's what I realized that that's what I want to do because it's a dark market right I want the marketing in fact one of the biggest amazingly genius move on his they can't spend anywhere else right yeah and amazingly we'll come to this as a topic because see at the end of this episode we want to tell young people how to have a job in alcohol alcohol how to build a business around alcohol how to create cool alcohol Brands ancillary cocktail mixes wherever the opportunity is last but not the least abishek I have to preface abhishek's introduction uh so we are a very small miniature partner to abishek in his business as a equity partner it's a investment that has done very well for us uh we' never spoken about it publicly but we have spoken like privately many times about it I think it's 1.6 1.7% pre no no from the open market I think close to 500 crores you're holding I think 400 crores 400 near 400 crores of abishek stock radico which is a great investment for me so uh nice don't blame me for being a bit nicer to investment that's how this is working like you have vegetarian you have cavar I can't see the caviar but tell us abishek you have Legacy in this industry I read I didn't know but 70 years really no actually um see our company was formed by the Goen Brothers in 1943 and then um 1973 my dad uh bought it over from Mr Sanjay Dalia and uh so from from 1973 our family is into the alcohol business and u i studied in modern school and I always say I'm in the business of making people happy in Bangalore you were in boarding school right no modern school was in Delhi and then College in Bangalore then College in Bangalore H so from for me from the beginning of my school days I always wanted to create a brand I love alcohol M that's why I'm happy because I practice what I preach so I love each kind of alcohol and um by Nature I wanted to become a CA But as God had it in store for me is my mom didn't wanted me to do four years of CA and then uh two years uh 3 years of college then four years of CA then 2 years of MBA so I landed up in Bangalore uh for my engineering and uh I think the kind of homework I did there by visiting all the pubs everything paid me very well I think Bangalore has been my biggest inspiration of what radico is today because Bangalore is always known as the PB City and every street had its own Pub and uh the liquor consumption that time was like that time liquor consumption was not like an fmcg it was more like you know it was the takar system where you push your material it was not a consumer's choice but Bangalore was the only city where you could see the liquor as an fmcg so I did my engineering there and uh then in 1996 I finished my engineering and everything which could go wrong happened to me I was that time I think 22 so we had a separation in our family my father were four brothers and we got rampur disty that time I think the turnover of the company would be about 70 crores and I had a liability of 50 crores and the profit would be kind of zero and what year was this this was in '96 that's the time I joined business also we had a bottling contract with one of the uh leading players in India which got over so my entire Revenue system was over company was kind of in losses with 50 crores liabilities so that time I went to one of the his bottlers with that and uh he made us wait for 5 6 hours and wanted us take in the company so that's the time I went to Dad I said dad now our back is against the wall and I really want to create a brand and let me try and do it so that's the time as a company we decided to get into Brands and um the one of the biggest task for me was to change the name of the company so the company was called rampur Distillery and chemical company and uh this I was 22 we had 11 uh foreign companies in India that is the time that there was a myth the amount of scotch consumed in India is more than what is bottled in Scotland and here a 22y old guy coming no Mone nothing totally like it was a it was a different scene so first of all it took me three four presentations to my the senior team and the age was all high I was 22 they were all 40 50 years old so I changed the name of the company from rampur diser and chemical company to radical ra of rampur di of distill and C of company so that's how radico came into uh existence and uh but by the way I love this part of the story wherein I find this in many Industries I'm going into invest uh we have this Western baggage in India where innately Indians believe that if the product is foreign it's better like I was telling you earlier AB we still sell Indian clothing which is probably better quality with foreign models on the face of it so when I saw this company which was making alcohol called ramper and jasel mayir in some cases which was not even aged as much as the SC spsh counterpart selling for more than that and people would call me and be like when we spoke about alcohol they would be you will only get it in the dutyfree and only sometimes otherwise rampur whiskey will be sold out so I was enamored from the very beginning in terms of how has a Indian brand been able to pull that off I feel that way for all Industries not just alol sometimes I'm sure your bigger Market in in your earlier years of products like rampur would be International right and not no I uh I'll come to rampur a little later but um so that's the time like what we did is because monies were limited so and you had to be pan India else your marketing Buck would go waste so I hired a team of 100 people the average age of my team would be 24 but what I thought if I get experienced guys they'll ask me a lot of salaries second they would not agree to what I am saying so my average age was very less so my uh payout was less then literally I went to 10 people begging them that please bottle for me but I didn't I could not put up capex so it's Outsourcing C- packing what you're saying so I said uh I'm 22 I'm 22 and a half I want to create a brand blah blah blah I'm not going to run away so please bottle so I got 10 people to bottle for me and then in 98 8th August 98 we launched our first brand 800 p.m whiskey and and luckily like I know the ad was very famous it was the best one of the best ad of the century the India Pakistan ad the this thing it was nominated as one of the best ads what was the ad remind me it was a border ad it was two generals and uh then at the clock strike the cannon goes up the clock strikes and then they pass the whiskey it's called as time for friends it's very popular ad so so that's how we started then from 98 to 20 6 we mapped out that which are the lowly sectors the economy segment or the popular segment the mass market and we became from 0 to 10 million cases what is that in money terms 10 million cases that would be what a turnover of about 600 700 800 crores 800 so that is what we did and uh that was fascinating then the most important which was the turnaround in our this thing is uh I was in Vegas and for me all the good ideas either come after 8:00 p.m. or at bars because I think that is my biggest learning that's my that's that's where I can see the consumers what they want yeah you you interact at the either at the bars or at the shop have you guys been to his home in Delhi not not his home invited us I've got seven bars he lives like Batman what so I went we had an idea of starting a tequila brand with a certain famous person I took a bunch of friends to his house recently for dinner outside of all the alcohol that might have been in his house so I went in the hotel taxi right and we were going back so when we were leaving abishek sent a Rolls-Royce a Bentley and one or two other cars like that and we went in like a posy of cars and I was like what is going on and my Inova which was from the hotel was following me from the back Bangalore versus Delhi Bangalore also have lot of people much more than that is also different so that I would get it so anyway so I was in Vegas so there what I saw that people were ordering watka on the table greos and the whole Trend was changing because earlier you never used to show your bottle off so you know the the bottle has to be a piece of art what I realized and the concept came that you know there was a ice bucket the bottle was there and people were proud to put the bottle on the table so I said we need to create a watka and we want to go and prize so that's the time I came back I wanted a decorated bottle but we didn't have money to get the machine so so I think no one knows this so I went I met up with kabadi walas so the first bottle of magic which was produced was dipped in asset with a paper label and it looked like a frosted bottle and everything so magic was born in 2006 then it kept on innovating and uh today we are proud because I always believe that 20 5% of the global market is vka in India at that time it was only 2% now it's changed to four the watka consumers are basically the younger generation that is youngsters and women which if you see our demographics year on year every year like 15 million people are going to come into the drinking age so I thought that is the right thing to do so that's how magic came and today we are proud that magic is the seventh largest vodka in the world and India out out of all the vkas starting from a regular to a Grey Goose or a Koffman 60% of any vka sold is Magic wow fantastic so that has been one of the turning points for us and then what happened is we we had morphus which is the largest premium Brandy so even if you see the packaging what I believe if the packaging what someone was saying like packaging is the first thing which attracts uh to a consumer second is the most important the blend has to be good and when you actually make a brand is when people are proud to have that sitting together they're not shy away even if they like the product they like to display it then in 2014 is um UK and India always have this uh tussle that uh Indian whiskey cannot be called as a whiskey because it's not aged and that's the time if you see all the new age malts whether yamazaki Etc were gaining ground earlier like yamazaki never used to get sold today if you go go to buy a 15 or a 18 21y old yamazaki won't get it in the market each bottle is more than a lak of rupees for a 25 would be I think about 2 and a half three lakh rupes and then they also removed the they have an allocation they called me in the please buy us a bottle amaki 18 a bottle but also in fact I was in Hedonism a bottle of yamazaki 55 guess how much was it retailing for no idea any guess 50 lakhs must be 6 and a half CR wow and people actually buy yeah absolutely it's crazy I'm telling you I chines like art yeah it's like art the Chinese no price but art you don't drink no but nowadays if you see wine and mold it appreciates it appreciates and people are reselling there a reselling situation bars actually get invited to these closed rooms sessions invested in barels like few of the these auction houses I think auction houses so that's the time we created in 2016 our rampur single malt and uh today we have seven Expressions the cheapest is $100 a bottle and in fact lately uh uh we had 400 bottles of chairman Reserve first bottle was uh in London it was sold for 1 lakh which got re auctioned for 2 lakhs so we had saved some bottles which is now uh in Hyderabad dutyfree and retailing at 5 lakhs a bottle and it sold out yeah there's now I think only two left 400 bottles yeah so that's 20 CR of sales no no I start I started with one right but in the end there were three four bottles left which we sold which is now detailing at 5 lakhs there's a good Insight on the market like when we are priced ing products across category where like if 400 Indians are willing to pay 5 lakh rupees a bottle they can pay 20,000 for for a shirt absolutely indian-made watches as far as we can push this needle of Indian craftsmanship and the ability of the Indian Artisan in every Department I feel like you know like enough of white stuff here why not our stuff sell there culturally we're more creative anything n what I'm saying with especially our prime minister yeah the Indians the kind of respect the kind of Aura Indians have you know earlier they used to doubt the quality of Indian product but today India commands one of the biggest uh premiums that is why like a single malt is on allocation and uh we also launch like taking from your Jin it can be always debated whether Jin was invented in England or Holland but Jin and tonic was the invention of India in 1910 you'll be surprised when there was a malaria outbreak so the britishers what they did they uh they had to have uh this quinine so they mixed quinine with lime water and andin in the end and yeah soda then they added Jin so Jin and tonic is the creation of India that's why every tonic water is Indian tonic water and how big is radico now see radico now is uh like our turnov last year was about 4,200 crores and uh market cap is close to about 22 23,000 CR I I read in the news somewhere that abishek had become a billionaire on Forbes how did that feel what changed see being a billionaire Etc is all numbers it's all Market but in the end what is more important that the Indian products going abroad create that name like our Jin Jessel rampur because numbers will keep changing so that does not give me a kick once the products become Global and respected I think that's the main kick about that value that value change okay so now that the introductions are over we'll get into the meat of what we were here to discuss the intent is to find young people out there want to be entrepreneurs and tell them how they can get a job in owning a bar starting a liquor company working in a liquor company doing advertising for liquor companies uh this seems to be such a large ecosystem with so many opportunities but nobody I looked up online I searched a lot no one has articulated the A to Z Journey when somebody gets interested and starts working earning a buck from this industry in a very tangible comprehendable manner so we'll try and attempt to do that so before we talk about opportunities in this industry maybe a good place to start is by establishing how big the industry is which part of it is growing faster than other parts and uh then try to narrow in on what somebody looking to begin here should do would you say the hard liquor Market in India is about $40 billion no no much more you think liquor hard liquor 40 million billion 40 billion 50 billion is total Market size and beer is about 12 billion yeah about 1230 something like that so the interesting thing is in India is the only country in the tropical Zone where you do roughly around 350 million cases of heart liquor considering you also country regular Spirits also and about the same quantity of beer but if you compare it to Vietnam which is on the same heat temperature distance Vietnam does 300 million cases of beer but only 30 million cases of hard liquor so we are extremely over indexed on hard liquor why I think one of the key reasons is I think if you look at the psychology we have to look at India Urban India is very unlivable and one of the big you know the the consumption U you know categories that these uh the imfl category gets its volumes from is the post work going home period which in the traditional liquor Palin you call it charar moment like four people working in different jobs would come together sit at a small take enjoy have that one break and then go home to the and and you know look at the transit times within City so you have really short of time so this moment of like maybe taking a little break from your routine is very short hence the consumption style and pattern has also been developed around this so what happens is we are extremely over indexed on the 180 ML nip so what is n so in terms of pack sizes I think 80% of the it is like is a full bottle which is and the 375 and 180 ml is a nip so they call it PA so what happens usually in the say up to a level of a semi- premium segment that is up till say a royal stag yeah so you'll see guys will meet at a place a it's called they'll buy a nip AATA a per per room so there they'll take a nip and they'll finish it and then go home for work but so go home for uh meeting their wives or anyone so that so it's basically summarized as bang for your buck A lot of times this happens so it's you have 1 hour if you drink two beers the high that you get the high that you get versus you drink prium lior it is different but for the is the biggest because they like to get high which is surprising which is surprising like it nowhere in the world 80% would be strong nowhere nowhere what do people drink for is it to escape is it to escape the monotony of life is it to get a high is it cultural in the sense that it's a activity that you like doing along with your friends and family why why does India drink it's also D broken up into segments the Country Liquor drinking class they for them it's price point and they want to get high at the lowest cost um what do you think no I'll change there like I studied in Bangalore so say the he's talking about the Country Liquor or the lowest segment so you'll be surprised these guys go to work at 8 a.m. you know they do physical labor I've seen them because I used to have in my DMS College the industrial engineering start to break the hammer and everything like that you know so 6:00 you'll see that guy in a liquor shop and how they drink it is amazing they'll take a nip is called a spwa in Hindi so they'll take it boom and then they'll go for work it's so physical after their work they'll again come back have one more and then go home and sleep and no need of a mixer no need of a mixer if they pick it up of 50 rupes now or 40 rupes that that's a typical percentage alcohol is this uh 28% no this is 42% no no it depends like you have 26 36 and 4 so recently I've done a Content series on Country Liquor and i' which is doing very well for me so I've actually picked up Country Liquor from all over the country and I've been uh tasting them and they don't taste as bad because of the low ABV although they have synthetic flavors in it what is ABV alcohol by Vol alcohol by volume uh which is not strong so a typical whiskey which would be a 40% uh ATA which is your country made liquor is 28% so you can drink it directly versus whiskey but that you need a mixer and they have all those local flavors all that it's very different it's the local local Flavors of India names like whatever like fun I think these are fun names I think that'll be a fun content piece if and I had one which tasted just like sambuka like you put it you put sambuka and you put this other country made liquor will not be able to tell the difference this doesn't sound necessarily like a good thing right somebody gulping 180 ML it's not it's not it is not it it is irresponsible drinking but they don't have any other option right uh Mass level drinking it's it's to get high to answer your question it's mostly to get high quickly for the money that You' spend what is the psychology behind wanting to get high why is this laborer who is making let's say 800 rupees a day to go and lift something for 8 hours or 10 hours or 12 why does he want to get high at the beginning of his day it's the same psychology that a corporate CEO probably comes home and has a whiskey at home before they get sit down on the dinner table it's the same psychology you are tired you want to get away you want to spend your day not thinking about maybe work and socializing or talking to your friends or your work friends whoever you talk to but from that point of view it is that break they they want to they don't want to like because their life is so tough they don't want to just yeah it's physical labor it's taxing I mean they have enough issues I feel like I think it's it's a lot of that I mean as part of diio per we did a lot of rounds in many many liquor stores permit rooms and one of the biggest learnings was that why are they sitting here and drinking is because they all need to get home in half an hour and then start that whole day again this is one break you got in the whole day where you could get away with your friends or whoever you drink with I mean that's irrespective you can drink alone and still find you know that so I think it's that right because we can't go around this question do you think alcohol net net for society is good or bad and explain why make a case on this side and on the other I mean you are talking I'll give you see anywhere where alcohol is banned whether it was us Etc it has L the economy into shambles yeah what she's rightly saying drinking alcohol in moderation is very good you're talking Kennedy time boot leggings even the doctor say a glass of wi or 60 ml a day is very good for the heart so I think anything in moderation is good so what you're saying is culturally alcohol has been a part of our life centuries and if you ban it what happened in US prohibition the money from alcohol will not go to you guys but it'll go to the dark elements but that being said if um I don't I'm not very good with the numbers of America but the younger generation that I tend to engage with once in a while they're not drinking as much as we were drinking when we were younger at least they were not drink they're not drinking as much as I would drink when I the Young Generation in India also maybe they don't have foures they're doing other things to get high but they're still getting high but they caring about calories they're caring about hangovers compared to what we would we didn't have those alternatives interesting point do you guys individually believe that you become a different person a slightly different version of yourself absolutely AB how do you Chee it's a chemical reaction in your body I mean this is finally it's not just a product in the air right I'm not consuming fashion through my eyes I'm actually consuming it in my body so it is actually changing there's a molecular change that you go through when you have alcohol so how does minaki change I I mean I get more I I love to dance and I love great music I like to put I mean some of us have seen us very drunk but we've had some great nights and you also also at at any point in time whenever you are drinking you are your guards are down like I said right so you are more open to knowing people and talking to people when you are say having a drink versus not having a drink I think I become funnier uh I become more social and I become more chatty abishek I've seen love yeah see I always say I'm the business of making people happy so I become happy same I think you know largely to a to a great extent but more of also sometime you also want to consume something on your own personal space as well like just you know in the unwind moment that's also something which is very interesting but very specific then you know okay so we established that the hard liquor Market is 40 billion beer is 12 billion so we have some data that says that correct me when I'm wrong UB has 25% market share followed by spirit and beer together Country Liquor has 20% no actually if you see 400 million in terms of value term I'll tell you the thing value terms yes not volume 400 million is the hard liquor M so 400 million cases Country Liquor would be again a 300 million cases mark but maybe not uh in numbers 51% isue so value would be very less revenue revenue would 51% won't it be Country Liquor no no much much less 20% your state data is correct much less because the the value is very less Val low yeah okay follow maybe followed by diio at 17 aner Bush B record radical ketan 3% no we we of the market size we're about 10% right so what did these brands do correctly which somebody can use to emulate somebody can build around if you had to talk about underlying Trends in the Brewing space uh what is changing today that I should focus on imagine I am a 25 year old who has managed to raise 10 CR rupees and I want to start a liquor brand should I do tequila should I try and figure out what UB is doing correctly I had an interesting conversation with an ex executive at UB who said that off late they've been trying to push hinin instead of KF and it's a strategy that has not worked yes and they're falling back on selling KF again exactly something on those lines yeah silver King henen silver was their MO right same thing which happened like if you see the Wars which happened with thumbs up and Coke yeah so what do I do I have 10 CR rupees that I have raised a venture capital fund has given me the money I want to start a lior liquor brand what should I start so I deal with these young people on a daily basis who want to start a liquor brand when you talk about numbers and market share most of these kids do not know their numbers and they don't want to go into building a tequila or building a gin because they want to capture market share they they want to create a product they want the first thing that they want to create is they want to create a differentiated product which is the first thing that they come up with saying that oh My Gin has hem seeds in it that's why I'm different or my tequila has this certain type of agave that I'm importing in that's why I'm Different they don't go in with the mentality saying that oh I want to capture 50% market share of the Gin category in the country number one number two they feel that the Indian brands or the international Brands which are there they can do a better job in packaging positioning marketing compared to these bigger players thirdly they feel is become much easier compared to what it was before that okay I know a friend who knows a co-packer all I have to go and do is create a recipe I don't want to be a manufacturer I want to be a brand owner and I want to be a distributor versus going into the entire capex model can you manufacturer bro on your own with 10 CR rupe Capital that I've raised you set you can set up a distill with but most your money will go into you cannot too less I think you can I raised my first round was eight cror and we spent almost six in kex because we really wanted the best equipment to brew but that was the whole journey that came to the point that you know we' done all everything that we could and then you only needed the money so with six CR rupees in equipment you can start a independent beer company in India but the the journey to the six CR is not see the money is the least important thing in this whole Matrix I think one of the most important things is you once you the what you are trying to do has to fully resonate with you like how minakshi has been running her bar for day in day out for years and you keep getting better at what you do by being at it what if I I don't know what resonates with me I want to find from the lens of capitalism the lwh hanging fruit of today so one of the I'm okay with going to a co-packer I don't have to manufacture I don't have to spend money on that what brand and what price point what category category the question is category and I would say the highest category is whiskey and I would say that and stuff like that would be your most profitable category and by far is the one that actually has test the test of stood the test of time as well like I've seen people set up with 30 to 50 lakh rupees how their money is spent U maybe 10% is spent on creating the brand the balance goes into actually paying uh listing fees uh in every state so they usually start off people from Goa they started from Goa then they go to either Delhi or gura and I'm talking about Jin as a category because that's a space I know um in Delhi you have to pay per brand which will be about 12 lakh rupees for vodka and Jin that's where most of the money is going initially go to market 30 to 50 lakh rupees people can start off their brand initially through a C- Pacer if you want to start the journey is really long answer your question you have to have sixc every year so we are not talking about one no no but then I'm just saying You' set up about no no what about like I'll tell you like in our industry if you want to go all India you have to have 35 bottling units right then it's a dark environment so it depends on the category so with such a small amount you can only make a mark If you go into a niche category which I'm fine doing yeah which only you get into a niche category right there also you have to the most important is you have to have the patience because what I feel to get the first 10,000 consumer is the toughest that is the biggest Journey which we I've seen in all my Brands because once that 10,000 are loyalist consumers will talk to they'll make 50,000 consumer then Millions comes that's happened with each of my Brands it goes slow but then it just takes off so the minute you push your brand and the most important industry is the payment the minute you push your primaries and you don't look at your secondaries and tertiaries the brand is finished what is primary secondary tertiary primary is suppose if I give to a distributor then secondary is when it goes to the retail the most important is the tery is the retail oft any retailer will take your material but till the time it does not go out he won't not making any money till the end the biggest problem don't pay in our industry what makaki is rightly saying I Echo her what she's saying with a six CR fun you it's it's like if you click it you're a God but you should have that capital of at least 50 crores Etc but he did it with 10 fantastic so I have one about alcohol beer is a different category I'm I'm open to beila Jan anything so I've looked at even Alan story and these other gin Brands they didn't start off they first they were going to co-packers and no no C- Packer wanted to bottle their product right they were if you go to copac and tell them if I come to you and tell you I want to build 750 cases in a year no they'll say that's too less for me right so that's the main thing that you have to start small which co- Packer should I go to any names recommendations people who have repute so I think co- Packers there are many you should probably choose a market where the resistance the friction to get your product to the consumer is the least so don't go to markets where there is very high regulation Goa we were you know an entire ecosystem I think please come to Goa I think Goa has great co-packers Goa has great C- Packers also extremely um so the there are two three types of markets that happen in India Goa is considered an open market like Maharashtra where you have a distributor it it almost operates very similar to say any other business like you have you have the freedom to do if you are in Karnataka you have to sell to the government so you have much higher control so as a I don't want to get into the complexity of different states cuz I think there are too many rules but are you talking about liquor or you're talking about beer either anything I think both are different uh in Goa getting a co-packer is easier getting a name a C- Packer somebody somebody of repute U greater than and you know there are a bunch like there are 30 greater than is a C- Packer it is being made at one of the factories also model they started from there also model is that you go to coopaca and if you if the coopaca doesn't have the still that you want to use in order to make your product since the coopaca has all the licenses which is actually the majority of the C the cost Bigg work the biggest work the biggest headache of your fire your chemical you have multiple licenses where initially if you want to raise money to build your own distillery that's where your money will go is when you import a Ste put it give it to your coper and tell him to use this still to make your product yeah and then get a good distiller yeah so when you say bottler do you mean caca yeah yeah same thing can I find a C- Packer for whiskey yeah yeah you can So for anybody for any Spirit any Spirit yeah so then I don't need that much money right if I'm using a co-packer and making whiskey this recipe how do I go about getting it what what is it I remember Kiran Kiran had this license in beer brewing whatever she studied microbiology she spoke about how the recipe is such an important ingredient absolutely I don't know anything about liquor I have raised 10 crores from a venture capital fund I have a broad plan in mind I go to a coopaca blue ocean somebody equally relevant we'll put out names at the end of this podcast with some research we'll take it from you yeah who are good co backers Second Step recipe how do I find a recipe you'll get a consultant most people get a consultant on board you either get a diser for example I I mean just giving you an example again because we know these guys greater than an husha was made by by somebody who was making Jin in in uh they came back from bomb safire right so the legacy is Big what's their name I don't I wouldn't know their name but I I know the lady I met her so we'll put we'll put the stuff you go two ways either you get a consultant on board who will take you through this entire process or you get a master how do you find a consultant who will take you through the process difficult to find in India no it's not difficult to find a consultant Consultants you'll get but the consultant will also help you get a master distill from another example they went to proof and go proof and Co is a globally International well-known company that consults Brands to create brands also uses proof and Co yeah so proof and Co was had used it and when they came to India they were already existing as a as a bottling unit mostly out of manisa right and then they actually created thein with proof and Co proper um you know guidance through like the entire recipe creating the entire story everything was out there so how do I meet these people how do I have this dialogue see we we want a particular outcome at the end of this conversation we want a road map wherein so many young people at least like a couple of them raise 10 crores build liquor companies hope hopefully one day become as successful as radico and Indian alcohol Finds Its place in the global ecosystem because young people coming in will experiment do different things it will improve the alcohol of the the quality of alcohol best way like even when I was building my non-alcoholic beverage band you have to pick up the phone call up people from the industry show there are many trade shows I would say like there's Berlin bar convention in India there's bruis and spirits that happens in uh in Bangalore multiple places have now this is this is the thing right India has very few trade only conventions when it comes to liquor like AAR is a huge thing but mostly focused on food and fmcg food right but alcohol has very few of these um where you actually meet people who are creating stuff like the the bottler is standing there trying to sell and say that come to me and make the brand with me I will give you the best price so you have to put yourself out there definitely travel there are many many trade shows that happen and we can give give you again names for that and of course the biggest of the shows are the BCBS and the London cocktail weeks of the world which which bring a lot of people together and you will have distillers bottlers creators blenders and investors in one room but that again is not India Centric I think India Centric is only India is very few I think I I mean I don't know how many you I think see let's let's break it into two three parts number one to create an alcohol brand what does it take it takes a great blend which is the most important it takes packaging Innovation and thirdly the space you want to be so any guy who's starting has to be passionate like her thing if she started sidecar she was passionate else to win the top Asia bar and World bar is not a joke and make assumption they are passionate people so then they should know which segment where is the global industry does it work for the Indian pet or not so even if these shows are happening abroad somebody from here can go there attend buy tickets they with HR you can get lot of blenders who have worked for blenders with HR like HR firms who have passed Dio P porno P XYZ there lot of consultant consultant retired people have created successful PL so you can get people there second is to identify the right product I think that is where the where the art of the youngsters will come in like sers has been started by younger generation this is my next question so now that you figure out a bottler who is also a co-packer you figure out the formula I I'll leave yeah the recipe yeah recipe the re call formula so I think you simply if you want to start for the for somebody who's just starting now I think one of the simplest things one should do is first go to the Super spend a lot of time in Supermarket just keep observing the Shelf do nothing the trend just let people come shop at the supermarket see what's moving on the counter observe talk to Consumers just be in that zone old school go to go to the bar sit at the bar keep seeing what's happening give it time then you will come with the inspiration which is you know that it is differentiated it's not coming from some knowledge of somebody else Western knowledge never works in India we like every pin code in India I say we have a culture code it changes it's it's phenomenally bizarre so you have to be very sure about what you are inspired by and you have understood a sense of the market by being there looking and feeling it yourself that's the first step then you are inspired than all the other things so if you are a brewer it's you know you simply it's the most collaborative open we have so many home Brewers who come to us conventions that happen anyone who wants to make can join these conven we have an East Library we always offer East trains to people we give small mold batches to people who want to go and try you don't need more than 5,000 Rupees to create a small home brewing kit at home experiment be on the kitchen s give it that time once you know the product whatever you're trying to make there's so much learning available online also then you know which one which consultant to go to or then when you go to these fairs you are a lot more better prepared so I think do that homework this industry requires you to put your head down and work hard it's a slow moving industry it's the nature of the business where you have to put that time to figure out the product first don't keep it for later because that's something that you will have to you will put all your energy behind so because you guys are experts in this where do you think I'll come to each one of you individually where is the opportunity today I'll ask you in terms of surj can tell me this kind of beer made with this kind of ingredient at X price point with maybe why story maybe you can tell me tequila made from whatever Agave extrao being sold at 5,000 rupees how to make that happen you can tell me based on what you're seeing in your bar as something where the demand is growing exponentially and abish can tell me who can build a competitive product to what is selling best at radico in the least tumultuous way as possible but is the goal of this question to become a billion doll business or is it to build something that you're passionate about something that it's profitable in nature yeah okay it doesn't have to have the scale of a billion dollars uh anyways okay got it so we start with take a second to think about it who would like to go first idea price point product category so I think one of the best opportunities right now is if you think about large multinationals the value which is available in the Indian Beer Market I'll only speak about beer right now lies in the category where the Indian consumer slowly upgraded from the King Fishers of the world now to a Budweiser or Hut they've already come to a 20 25% this is currently roughly around a 55 to 60 million Cas industry that's the price point where you actually make money proportionate to the investment and everything so it's it's it delivers better margin if you now can take this consumers who already here so the consumer iology is that that that consumer wants something better take it to a destination product there may be multiple destinations so you can upgrade a consumer who's seeking quality is always a great starting point I think look at price elasticity don't go to 100% markup on a existing large category category building is absolutely not possible in so what you're saying is take the premiumize consumer who has moved from KF to hinin who is willing to pay couple of hundred bucks for and that consumer is going to be far more willing because he's seeking or she's seeking this product quality as a driver and and they will be more than willing to come and upgrade so there is a constant uh Journey that's that's accumulated to a large enough pool now minaki I know what I'm going to say it's has to be bourbon whiskey uh coming from two three things um that I really believe in uh India I mean and again coming from the fact that we are talking cocktail consuming cocktail the way consumption is growing it is one of the biggest drivers of the way consumption is happening in India uh again again Urban centers more so than rural but then again tier 2 as well there are many many cases and great restaurants and bars opening in tier 2 as well and you can see that the major driver of consumption is through cocktails um why bourbon whky specifically for cocktails I'm coming to that is because cocktails were actually created in America they were their American invention and then and hence because bourbon whiskey is a whiskey that was created in America um has not been tapped into to as such as a base spirit in India as much as it can we have Jim Beam which is now being made in India which is completely sweeping through the cocktail Market every bar that you go to right now is actually pouring Jim Beam in their old fashioned whiskey stars all of the M Min julips of the world right and what it's doing is that it doesn't have an Indian alternative so even if I want to use the best of Indian whiskies most of them actually emulate Scotch because that is our way of kind of taking the Scotch whiskey product ction process forward right what the difference between bourbon and Scotch so Scotch biggest is the difference is of course Scottish and American but other than that there's a big production difference in fact taste wise also there's difference so there it's sweeter so bourbon whiskey is much sweeter than Scotch whiskey primarily because 51% of corn is used to make a bourbon whiskey so hence it's sweeter in taste when you actually do a comparative also the way it's finished it's actually finished and there is a little bit of a Char of the bourbon the CK in which it's made it's actually made in New s so the CK itself has a little bit of that Woody churny Burnie flavor which works really well for Indian palette and we feel very very strongly that so far many have tried actually beam Global has launched a whiskey which they're seeing is very much like a bban whiskey it's not to say that the big guys are already not in it but I feel an Indian true Indian person like Indian brand has not really ventured there because a whiskey is intimidating a that you don't money issues like we if we say that we don't have a capex issue and we don't have an aging issue I mean I'm I'm assuming all of these things are in place the investment is in place does it have to be aged is Jim Beam aged yes minimum two years that's what bourbon's claim is you in India given that you minimum three years but but also being a hotter climate it's as hot as as as the bourbon but bourbon does it have the GI tag like scotch has a GI te we don't have to call it bourbon whiskey we have to call it an Indian it's we don't want to call an Indian whiskey bourbon whiskey that defeats the purpose of it you're talking that it will be a change in the blend it's a flavor like a bourbon rampur we are using bourbon CK we using three so if you do yeah so X bourbon CK will be much more refined version of making the same thing we talking about sweeter corn we talking about getting into we're getting into the entire production of it we're not just finishing the whiskey with it so and I feel of course pricing has to be pouring which basically means it has to be valuable to me as a bar owner what is the number so anything between 1200 to, 1400 not above that and approachable to Young interesting people are getting into the category you know Fresh So what is happening to the younger ones are that back in the day I think we all got into alcohol with old monk I hate saying the back in the day world actually but most of us have actually started 40 so but what happens you look it thank you my skin Delhi skin Delhi skin I bang both are glowing as well what's going on we will tell you later coming back to the price point yeah so anything between 12 and 1400 an entry level yeah so I would fully say there there has to be entry level um a lot of the younger immediate after LDA legal drinking age actually gets into this category so they either drinking Jin which is at a greater than price slash badi price I mean in that I'm trying to think about a rum which is in that that category so you know Makai I mean the the coring category that we talking about so whiskey in that category still is owned and run by the the mnc's that space is because also it's very intimidating it's hugely expensive you know the whole deal it's D we just launched our kohu Reserve Ram at that price point you know what in same we need to use the whiskey to make cocktails to get we not talking whiskey consumer I'm not going to sell it to Consumer brand called bangalow bangaluru and I make a bourbon tasting whiskey at 13400 bucks and come to minakshi and say try this try beam yeah if mine tastes okay or better you'll take it of course I will it will be there's if you get the packaging see it's a great you have to find The Sweet Spot in that mix so it's good story good blend you cannot absolutely not um you know just discount the recipe the process the whole art of it as well because you cannot say I just packaging is such a big part today it it is huge it's huge like how you sell it like what are you going to say about it if you say it's a bourbon like whiskey I I'll be like okay like so basically you emulated a whiskey which is made in us but you have to have your own original story somewhere bangaluru sounds like a nice bring it out of the Hat you get a good because because Mai from that space right for a product like this you'll need the advocacy coming from the bartender to replace it in an old fashion right I need to be like fully it has to be very and also usually a lot of us which is a lot of us fully back Indian good Indian Brands right so if you are making a good Indian brand which is maybe selling or not selling I will fully list it give it that chance after that it sells or does not sell or people that is like the secondary tertiary sale conversation which can happen later but at least the entry point you will you will have it better if you are an entry also again as a Founder right as a co-founder founder you if you're going out to them and talking to people you have to sound like 100% convinced and behind the brand like that's important right that's the that's the meat of it so if you are not like you're like oh I just need to make money I'll be like okay like no no I I will feend passion very quickly when my bangaluru wh keys out okay if you call it bangaluru I don't know how hyper local is essentially what you can say that you we we so or how about we call it like a area instead of even not I mean I'll tell you what we call it J like we' done it you see if you see rampur we've taken all the Indian names to the world and India like rur fantastic your Jessel may now we launched the first time any Indian company at a Scotch price Royal Ram B the brand has really taken off it's one of the largest going to be one of the largest it's all IND names I I mean we have a menu called dear Deli which was actually made and which actually got us to this massive I think Global recognition is because of that menu because the menu was made out of all the places and local spots that us as Delhi people know and it's not to say everything was named after the tombs and the historical places there was a drink called du special so people who actually know du special are the only people who know like who know du right because that's the bus that actually goes around and it's called special and what's a good way to get Word of Mouth out I start a whiskey called bangaluru 14 bu meet BB yeah meet your stakeholders so retailers your bar owners your partners you have to get your partners the the the bar Community for this product is a very big push so there's a very interesting story the founder of perno R his name was Paul Raa and he used to say he started in the southern town of Mars where he made a product which was called rard in his name so he had a philosophy it said make a friend a day so he would take his case of RA go to one bar in M every day and offer a little sampler to every person who was sitting there and they would sip by the end of the year he was in 360 bars and every person was drinking pastis or the was saying Paul is my friend he makes this product I'm drinking it and he took over that business started as simply as that this is possible so Indian equivalent Indian equivalent to something similar indan equivalent to that sort of indian spirit made by an Indian founder and to Bar definitely is greater than you guys like you have done the see you cannot discount put into Reta and expect it to fly right interesting shuch would you like to go next us usually usually what ends up happening is that a Brands come to me and they like okay we have this product we don't know what to do with it please help us out is what I end up usually writing strategies for a lot of brands uh but personally um I think two one is rum I I believe strongly Ram is a category I think India has has grown up on old Monk and post old monk there's not been too much disruption uh in the rum Market globally uh you have zakapa and such Brands which are doing extremely well and all bartenders globally are working with rum what was Jin a few years back is now RAM and Tequila so I believe um a great flavored rum at a premium price at a semi premium price point will what is semi- premium 1,200 same pricing onwards not an old mon really agree with you 12200 onwards uh I believe in that as a flavored drum flavored as in you can have different expressions of it you can have a spice rum I'm actually I love I love Captain so good zakapa is one of my favorite uh rums but there not too many options here recently there have been some Brands coming out of maai is there satara is there and now you're launching Kami kamikara I not tried kamikara but I'm saying Ram as a so there's interesting thing on you know rum as a category the consumer so there is two things whiskey has laddering in terms of price so whiskey consumer starts at say the Imperial blue level and then goes to Royal stack blender sprad 100 Pipers Shivers as the person grows in life so whole storytelling is about like you see all the campaigns are all it's your life make it large OB I don't know what but it's it's all about God you didn't take I of course so but in rum rum sells a lot in the East West Bengal um you know orisas the so rum has a is is is a product where the consumer doesn't even relate to this image so that it's not for status Seekers so it's a very different psychological product category you know you would find a great musician drink Ram in Goa in India it's almost equivalent to how Jack Daniels has a subcultural kind of a Vibe throughout America does that commun it's very Community strong strong personality not too social but believes so you can upgrade rum but you need to do it with a great product story I think you need to upgrade the consumer who's very different from a whiskey consumer the whiskey guys what is old mon is it's rum it's R yeah I read some research around whoever attempted rum in India could not beat old monk is that true I think celebration rum which is of di Jo now out sells old monong quite a bit bakardi dropped their price so much to compete with old no but bakadi B is gold and white is like you have to get up the price ladder like say we had launched a 1965 rum so like Army defense is one of the largest market we are the highest pric rum we're selling higher than old Mo the numbers we the largest selling rum so it depends on the pricing and product and premiumization because there most important a huge population of in the country that drinks rum whose disposable income is going to keep increasing I also feel that that's not a category play like rum I don't think anybody's drinking rum for it being rum yeah I just think they're just drinking it because it's a spirit which is super easily available and it's it's like there is no it's never had it's never had like a Jin has had a moment like like I'll tell you I believe you know Brandy is 18 to 19% of the market it's is only 11% Brandy is 19% yeah why is that see I think Brandy 98% of the Brandy sells in South so IED you have to give us one yeah you know I researched it because we have a morphus so that is the super premium Brandy and we have 58% market share there is uh Brandy what I realized is South in South people are very religious so if you see pondi and Kerala are two states plus Tamil Nadu so one is pondy at the French uh connection and French are into Brandy second if you uh see all the shops liquor shops in the South earlier like Kerala was called doctors uh this um each shop like the Brandy was called doctor's Brandy right so people used to think think that they'll drink because of Health purpose religious purpose doctor K like in North India if you see when when we were kids when it was very cold our mothers used to like you know rub Brandy on our hand so I think it's just some kind of that else South India it's like hot Etc but the Brandy Market there is huge okay Tamil Nadu 85% of the market is Brandy yeah so the numbers Tamil Nadu you have to you have to distill in the state in order to sell that's that's and you can't have you imported Stu or you have to you have to distill in the state s over there hard Market the numbers we had was the market is 63% whiskey 22% Brandy 12% drum 8% vka no four 4% is 4 4% vodka Jin it'll be all of all of together 96% Brown yeah oh my God is there a switch happening between brown Spirit to White in India yes vka has been the largest growing category in The Last 5 Years about 2% or whatever vka vka and Jin would be about 4% so vodka now would be about three three and a half still it's a it's smaller compar from but imagine globally 25% is vodka yeah but vodka and the white are getting it's coming I I feel it's a matter of it it it'll grow it'll eat it'll eat into the whiskey market like I'm I'm banking on that smof 100 years ago was marketed as white whiskey and that's how they the campaign was that lead you be drink and drive with because it in vka 80% of the market now has become flavored watka yeah and that's I think so where we've got like launched about Apple vka is very tasty no body is taken off like crazy when we did research everybody kept reiterating Flavor Flavor Flavor in beer in vodka in Jin and rum and brand everything why is that switch to flavor happening would you want to have like a flavored whiskey Tom I'll tell you say let's take the white Spirits mostly it's prevalent in white Spirits not in the whiskey whiskey you only have fire and honey and all those but that is too small in vodka if you see who are your consumers is the younger generation and women now when you see when a youngster is getting into the drinking age bracket alcohol by choice is bitter a Pepsi or a Coke would taste much uh better so they need a sweetish flavor so they they tend to get for the flavored uh this thing and then it's easier to drink like the flavor Just Add Water yeah I think there's there's also another it does not smell it does not smell which is yeah so what happen it's like day drinking the exactly the Indian consumer one of the craziest you would assume that smof when they came to India in 2007 and they were just doing parties and they realized it's not taking off but vodka in in terms of percentage of you know market share to other Spirits probably highest in the most conservative State like Kashmir rajastan and then you look at it you realize the Nuance where it's being drunk a lot by shopkeepers people who are working during the day who have a Tabo to mask their smell so you know you would find that uh it's it's like some Fanta bottle dying in that SAR shop and somebody's sipping on it through the day he probably drinking some flavored flavored product so the cool kids moved to Jin because there was a Botanical and the mes movical play what does that mean see that is the herbs like you the infusions like how like I said Jin is nothing but a vodka with flavor but the flavors were stuff like you have to have Juniper then you would have cinnamon J is the prime herb for any gin call it but then you have addons like you can have a gin of 11 Botanicals 18 Botanical have green apple gin right you won't have a green apple gin but you have a green apple vodka which has a bigger Market size why fruit vodka flower Jin why why why is the flavor that you choose to add to vodka a fruit whereas it can be anything cinnamon it can be coffee also but the most popular like we started the flavor uh uh Trend in India so green apple is the most famous then is orange and then is cranber but it has to be a Masia flavor yeah green apple is the you can't you can't have a nutmeg uh you can't have a nutmeg vodka but you'll have a nutmeg infused gin like he's talking about matcha beer yeah that's as nuanced as nuanced gets right but but that'll be part of his 25% share it's a so it's it's it's a part of like a portfolio where you also have a small consumer so there's this whole consumer who also relates to almost like everything that's very high quality and that consumer is see is on a completely different Journey you can have a cafe R yeah which will be very this thing but for me for his brand these drops build loyalty to the brand to the core consumer now I like oh this guy's actually played around with matcha I must drink his other products I might not be a regular consumer of the matcha product but now in my head his positioning my positioning has become so we have zero marketing cost because we keep doing products and every product creates a little bit of its own buzz and market and then it's like your product mix you want to have like your base playing you're playing at that level and then you put one Coho diamond in the middle and the COO Diamond gets you the eyeballs and that and your actual base level will actually benefit from it because the main brand might or might not s might not are becoming smaller Juniper bombs Cricket they aged a gin with used cricket bats which they Source from all over the country yeah yeah okay so you said go after the premiumize audience which has upgraded from KF to a Heineken and hit them at that price point you said build something which is India's bourbon at answer to Bourbon yeah at 1200 to, 1400 rupees a bottle I said Bangalore you said the story The Design the packaging will have a big part to play and a good go-to Market strategy is physically stepping out meeting bar owners consumers converting them oneon-one and hoping for Word of Mouth you said Brandy I said ram ram ram and tunix and rtds radio drink beverages at that's about five to seven years from now but I I see that picking up why don't I think space is going to be a constraint people will not have too many bars they won't have space in their houses and they will not have space to build a bar they would not have the energy to buy a mixer have ice order they would want the way they have a beer they'll be ready to drink beverages which will be there in the fridge they'll just come back from work they'll either have an option of a great beer or something which is premixed open it drink it and go and chuch you also said price point same as that the premium to an old monk the first Stepping Stone from an old monk at that price point your turn they all suggested what should be built which category price point what kind of alcohol for somebody new starting to build so if it is a matter of selling you should create something Innovative mhm there are lot of opportunities which I'll just I won't go on specific because we are going to get into that what are you getting into next answer I'll tell you but question in a different right now A friend told about ra what is it it is French origin yeah there is a lot of Heritage there is a lot of strength on the indianess we have to see what India 100 years back offered we have to get into the roots of India yeah we have to see you told me this already at your house we so I've been working for four years on that we have to get something which no one has seen absolutely like if you see all my brand history starting from a rampur royal ranor Jess May everything is Indian so here also the Indian ethnic things there is so much of scope even for India and that you can price it higher so the minute you price it higher your margins are there for any newcomer uh you have to your uh gross profit has to be high it has to be 70 to 80% else you'll fail if you try to compete with the masses big boys will take you over yeah so the you cannot compete with them on their muscle P I've competed I competed but that was a different story but for a young entrepreneur your Innovation and price point and the margins has to be attracted second would be don't don't dump just look at the teries so one is I will say ethnic flavors Ram I agree with her which we are also venturing we venturing into a $50 Ram coinu Reserve first time it is a small small batch distillation the it's made out of can juice from North India only in the winter season then matured in American bourbon cast then uh kyak EXO cast then vermo so it took us four years to create that so it's a different Innovation so I think Ram there iscope plus I think uh the ethnic the Indian story that too many Li which was here which can take the right take the world and India but the price point should be high so the margins are there makes sense so the Heritage lure part has another Nuance to it which if you can even look at say um mahua being done by certain tribal communities you travel to the Northeast you have a lot of wild rice ferment still being done in Manipur with indigenous varieties very similar to what the Koreans do with maguli and with the some like similar to the nigori S too so there's so much to do but you have to be little bit of like you know research and find a lot of there is also lot of ingredients which are very unique to India and that's your very strong mode if you can find the indigenous varieties and then go local local local local think Global act local like what he earlier said like for me 28 states are 28 different countries if you go to a Kerala your marketing strategy has to be different Karnataka it has to be different Punjab it has to be different you have to go on the regional festivals and don't make a plan for 30 countries conquer one at a time just one work and work with smaller like even if you're working with the bar Community work with lesser amount of bars work with the best bars but work with them very closely versus just going and distributing to all the bars in the country it depends on point would be that the Manpower has to be talk about who know Li think think we are like PS apart the way we think but I think in her industry bar I think is one of the most virgin opportunities in India we have not started yeah if someone can clicket click it like if you see namos what their revenue and Etc is it's up it's unreal they would make it 250es 400 they sold profit only wow namos the zumas I think India has just started if someone can create a name where you can go I think there's a huge opportunity that people are ready to pay money [Music] [Music] one thing after we have decided what to build the next logical question is distribution uh she spoke about going to bars and selling by giving them taste of talking to them individually what are the ideas for a young person starting off in distribution how does one get it did I go yeah see like I'll I'll talk from the global context and then I'll come to the Indian context like globally I wanted to make like what we have done in rampur Jessel so we export to 100 countries now it's always better to see and never reinvent the wheel so we've been country partners with enj Gallow they have been the largest uh wineries in California and the world them uh and uh what I saw about the distribution model that they have the best Distributors around the globe even if they have to pay extra but they have the distribution guys who are passionate so globally we also followed the same philosophy where we had Distributors so we didn't have to invest in Manpower in a country and get to the nuances maybe you pay extra but you have the right guy who can sell for you so that was a good and an easier model but can you do that only at scale or even if you're really small when small I started with zero like in rampur but like the guy suppose my us distributor he left a job with one of the largest uh uh companies in America Distribution Company and wanted to take India to the world so started with negligible volume now he's like minting money M and uh in last seven years what he's done is fantastic same thing in Ghana same thing in Nigeria so a lot of places we have done that Singapore a lot of places so India I feel distribution is the most expensive so depending on the state if you get the right distribution partner you get the right social and you address the in a in a state suppose if you are there you address the 10 indest bar so the minute you are there other bars will copy you they'll say that if you give like if you have an entry to one on promise like say a side car in Delhi if anyone knows that okay if in side car your brand is there it is accepted automatically so I think you have to catch the overall there do liquor Brands give you free bees to display the alcohol yeah absolutely I mean they give you not just for display they give you for Activation they give you for for they they actually very very important partners for you so like we are part of the same ecosystem right if I don't buy the Rand and sell it further then we are nobody's benefiting from it so I have to work together like almost like a partnership uh they do end up taking uh shelf space share of throat which basically means that how much are you pouring which are the which are say for example I have a menu of 20 cocktails out of which if I'm getting a majority of say a tie up money it's called a tie up money which basically means if I'm working with a diu or a perno or a bakari or even a radico I will be then prioritizing their brand over other brands to actually make cocktails with which basically immediately turns into volumes for them but it also gives them visibility it also gives them activation points touch points consumer feedback a lot of things happen so it's a tool so menu is a tool for you so if I start my Bengaluru uh bourbon company and sell it for 1,400 bucks and come to you would you put me on your shelf because already have a deal with your partners I will put you on the Shelf I will not immediately start pouring your your brand pouring and and putting it on shelf are two different things I have almost to the tune of 350 listed uh available visible brands in the menu so let's say for example you're selling a Dio brand what do they give you exactly so they give me multiple see they they support me for New Year and say Christmas activation they support me for so next month we are supporting an entire month of pride month at the bar so we celebrate it every year uh for that I need to make a special menu with that menu I need to make special drinks which are you know uh which are actually talking to the audience that I want right at the bar I'm also doing like some an event which is a talking conversation sort of sit down which we do every year then we end it with a big party with a big band I need money for all of these things if I bring like a band band takes money if I bring a photographer photographer will take money so I'm taking money for this a brand I'm not mentioning whichever brand it is then I take money from them and then for full month I'm actually giving them the menu exclusivity for that special month so you kind of it works really well for your beverage cost point of view so you actually can make money by selling the brands and then the brands are also happy because they're getting multiple visibility points are you demographically seeing any changes in liquor consumption traditionally men have been the one to buy and consume liquor I don't know about consumption because buying number is there are you seeing more women consume alcohol is the age at which somebody first consumes changing uh there is research to show that genz in America is consuming lesser alcohol than Millennials uh this problem is so Stark in countries like Japan where young people are not drinking that the Japanese government is starting sake festivals different ways to encourage young people to drink same problem in India not at all I think women are definitely drinking more there is no doubt about that like that is a big plus for us for the growth also so because U the fact that there are many many women joining into the drinking occasions multiple Market is going because of the women also also so women and also LDA plus so we talking always whenever we talk about legal drinking agent plus they are also drinking better places better quality premiumization all of those things right so that is definitely happening uh and they are actually adding a huge huge value to to the entire night also I think the the the shopping experience overall especially in Delhi retail Bombay retail that is one of the what he said is one of the most important we've been advocating as radico and as the liquor industry that earlier if you would have gone into any shop in a Arana Mumbai women can't go and Shop they'll be looked down you know they'll not feel safe but today if you see the shopping experience whether it's Bangalore whether it is G you have 20,000 ft it's become very nice so women are comfortable to go and pick up their bottle second even when you go for a party earlier like you know they used to hide their glass but today it's like normal for the new generation in fact a women not drinking what it will feel that why is she not having premiumization before before we get into that subject properly because it seems to be working across the category any other distribution hacks I think one I wanted to mention which um I think if you are a absolute zero to one person starting out I would say once you identified what product you are doing just take a few bottles and in there are three layers to distribution what you manufacture is called as the primary then you what your distributor supplies to the market to say Mini's bar is called secondary and what minakshi sells from her bar is called tertiary I would suggest first thing that you do once you have the product go Ulta don't go the route that the big companies do where you go do primary you have established Distributors you go to 100 bars go to 25 30 wine shops take your product sample talk to the owner you already built enough Awareness on your brand on and people know that you are doing so that when you go to a distributor you know that if you sell 100 200 cases it's going to go to those mini bars the Distributors is going to be far more comfortable taking on your product if you've already done that little leg work so I think that's one of the simplest things that I think anyone like you said going from zero to one the hardest thing for a new be is to find a distributor it's not as easy as you think it is a lot of people don't want to take your brand yeah you have to show them show them basum they will be like minaki vouches for a brand listing in a bar you know any a depletion is the biggest problem you'll get listing at Mini's bar but the bottle will be lying how do you deplete it so it has to be combination of and secondly how do you get it listed on the menu it's at the bar but when I open the menu it's not there I have to convince minaki that I will spend money I will give you a band I'll give you a DJ but please get my put my alcohol inside one of your cocktails what if you give minaki the alcohol and say pay me after yourself that doesn't matter that would't work in in the end ter has to happen as it is as it is the credit period is high so for a newcomer consumer has to pick it up like if consumer is not picking it up then there is or she puts inside a cocktail which I Market which gets sold further my alcohol is getting depleted so a bartender a route very popular on bartenders and counter salesman we call them CSM so there is a guy who's a manager at a say a madula in Bangalore and that guy knows everything about what brand sells he any customer who is a regular who will go to that wine shop or to a duers or whatever will ask the person and he'll say this is new and it's doing well I have tried it so create that recommendation from people who are already in the business and people trust you don't have trust but the person who standing there day in day out for years has a far more trust and he will recommend your product only if that person likes so make that effort first so bartenders are bartenders everyone bartenders every brand wants them Plus for example in the in the beer industry when I was running Jade uh I remember this so clearly uh people would pay the bartender outside of their job you return caps to me I'll give you I'll give you 20 rupees a cap for depletion to make my distributor happy so he sells my product so I'm burning money so that the bartenders are pushing my beer in the restaurant to customers so they have to have you have to have these innovative ways of marketing how to deplete your product in a restaurant so I think at every level your intervention will change yeah so when the founder is talking then you should talk to the founders of the bar and then sometimes if your sales team is talking the sales team can talk to the bartenders vice versa I mean now it's obviously the the lines are blurring as well so when you are talking to the bartender of course I mean you are selling the same product but at the end of it they you have to see what is the bartender benefiting where is the you can't just say it's the best whiskey in the world and I have made a BBA which can you can you should just do it he's not the decision maker right they are never the decision makers they are the ones who are actually going to be the ones who can be Advocates of the brand they can talk about the brand you give them the brand experience you give them if you have a Distillery call them which is now happening in India a lot a lot of the Indian makers are calling bartenders bar owners to to their Source right and actually explaining them the whole process of say Brewing the brand creating the brand and then they become part of the story then it's the same thing right you experiencing the brand from day one and then you actually have a personal connect with that brand there multiple touch points and every touch point if you're a new brand you have to disrupt and physically you have to go talk toally or and every person who's your stakeholder is the hero of his own Journey so you think that if a counter salesman's journey is very different from a retail shop owners to a bartenders to everything relate to that understand how your product can make their lives better whatever way it may be and that's the only only connect that you have nothing else Works money is if you are going to compete with money then you are already out of the game because you're competing with people who have like1 $200 billion dollar you know you have to do something all the biggest Indian industry is run by multinationals do you think sponsoring events works you can take this yeah so yeah it does I think these are all opportunities for Brands to Showcase their brand out of the bottle so for example in a g Explorers Club uh there are two parts of it uh legally uh event alcohol brands in India they cannot do their own events they can do their own events but they cannot Market the content legally online post doing an event so when these IPS of cocktail festivals come up that's where all these Brands come participate content is created uh you get uh at a very low cost you get high footfall uh you get people intrigued into your brand because of how you've decked up your bar and the and the engagements that you have on your bar and post that you've not technically done your own event you come create content there which you can further amplify online that's where you can call your influencers you can have also it works better sponsorships also work far better is because you are actually experiencing the brand versus just seeing it on TV for example you were to see an ad on TV of XY Z whiskey and Jin you'll see it you know Shah ruk Khan is selling it as the best amazing brand that's it that's the end of it right you sample it too I I mean with the surrogate you see it but at the end of it now today it's the where that is where I feel the quality of conversation has shifted where you'll be like if I see grow brewing companies say you know I whatever whichever people's be I see an ad versus if I actually get an experience of a I go to a music festival I get to try the beer I get to speak to the maybe the founder not the founder whoever con the whole experience is the product right so I feel it's such a sensorial experience just like food no no matter how many advertisements you can put on TV or newspapers and magazines this I would like to say like what uh shuch read he's created a niche like the GC created was Jinn Jinn was exploding in India so what happened like say my Jessel we start we did it there the launch we're waiting for a GC actually delete the launch to participate so what happened GC all the Gin lovers were as I said to make the first 10 th000 consumer is the toughest loyalist then you become 50 then you become Millions so in GC it was just an evolution but all the Gin lovers because he had only Jin were coming there which he coupled like a carnival that is your music and everything one is a function it that alcohol is there he branded that so for that a brand to come there and actually the Gin lovers coming there it makes a lot of difference and also splits the cost of multiple Brands like if total cost is to do to do this event is four crores is getting split between 15 Brands versus then them creating their IP of their own but I think there is a there's a so a brand is like a person and you have to be really understand what's the brand personality before you think about events I think when you one of the easiest things is what you are not going to do if you're clear about your brand then venturing into events the great SP so like we were very clear that we are not going to do any collectivist activ we are not going to do football screenings or anything that's General Trope in Bria because we as a brand are focused on you know sustainability you know making sure that you know we are probably like focusing on cre so we only focus on sponsoring events which are like marathons which are like cycling events which are Outdoors so you know what happens is you also then when you own one category and you're focusing entirely on it you become far more your your entire you know digital spread is only going to be messaging that is very at sublinear level which is going to come they're saying that okay this beer is only drunk or seen around these kind of people identify that you know there are thousands of events you don't have that much dry powder you have to choose where you're going to go so you're saying don't go too broad pick what is your brand value stry you have to have a plan I mean you second year third and if you can pick one category and go to it till the end and become like someone which is becomes a brand for cyclist or a brand Ford whatever it is then you are like example if you go to IPL you won't be visible like you spend because we don't have VC funders and the startup fund like not startup but like you know the big boys so you'll be lost it's all the dots Etc who are sponsoring there so IPL if you sponsor you have to have a budget of 100 CR so in our language when someone comes to me and tells me we want to launch a brand or we want to activate the brand we create something called a 1990 right one is your big launch where you'll spend maybe 50% or maybe 25% of your budget which will be a Delhi or a Bombay then in the nine where 50% of your budget will go would be in your major metros which will be Delhi Bombay Bangalore where you'll Target about 50 bars each where rest budget will go then you'll create a 90 90 will be a small activation which could be a drink serve or a glass wear or a a tower which will go across majority Outlets across every city in in whichever cities that you want to activate so that's how you have to split your marketing budget you cannot only uh do one launch and uh extinguish your marketing budget that happens we've seen many many you have to go consistent you have to go your marketing re Mumbai is the most Mumbai is the costliest to convert any City like if he wants to launch his from Mumbai as a startup it's very tough the kind of money it burns like you know it like I I I address Mumbai the last you always it's the most expensive Market am I right yeah absolutely because High entry barrier cost of K form which is the government taxes you almost even cost of Entry the Rost of Entry the retail you know you need to Discount and sponsor a certain set percentage when you want to space is limited so the retail stores are smaller so where would I start my liquor brand Goa Goa which brand you will first list in Goa by pay 50,000 Rupees BB you'll pay 50,000 Rupees as your listing fees to legally sell your in Goa see bourbon as it is suppose if you start you have to take three years time then you come to good and basically it's a 5e process from now what if I buy old age no you can do you can do the other model we don't we are not distilling so we are also talking about changing the model a little bit right so we we can buy spirit and blend it and age it and age it you have to AG it find yeah we have to find a I feel goai will be easier than any other Market would be not yeah agent there itself um pay 50,000 Rupees to the government get listed there for one product very cheap get licenses first 120 180 would be 12 lakh rupees oh whiskey is 25 lakh rupees per SKU in Delhi to get your product listed that's just yeah that's just listing who knows listing is for a for a one to from a z to one why is the most expensive in retail like say rampur here is 125,000 in harana it is uh 7,000 Delhi it is 8,000 MB is highest tax so 44 would be G 49 would be this is after reduction for the last two years reduction Mumbai is the highest but this is after reduction rates so we got this interesting stat what percentage of a state's Revenue comes from alcohol the highest happens to be utar Pradesh 22% and I we contribute 26% of the states levenue wow that's crazy Karnataka 20% 12,000 crores because karnataka's taxation is mad it's like 80% tax is what you pay in in between second is Tamil Nadu second is Karnataka thirdd Tamil Nadu Bengal B 20.2% percent percentage wise actually sorry pondicherry is 40% that's Distribution Hub it's not actually a place where people then comes Punjab utarak Himachal uh MP they're all 17 to 20% up is the largest but this is crazy a state is earning 20% of its Revenue not one but so many and they make why because because excise is the only thing under State subject we've been lobbing that why don't we come under GST so for I don't get any input credit don't we are the privileged ones the minute if I come under GST my whole game our balance sheet would look so beautiful yeah can you make the case like articulate because we'll make this a real and put it out for whoever is listening why should you move from state to GST see first of all any like suppose if I'm transporting my material from Delhi uh up to any other state I have Interstate duties then I do not have any input credit on my raw material excise Duties are different so if GST comes I'll be like normal there'll be you Manufacturing in up are the duties lower than Goa no no I have to manufacture every that's why I have 41 units that's the biggest entry to barrier it's a big cost uh cost uh not Logistics Duty yeah also so it's it's it's it's absolutely like I'm telling you it's like to getting into liquor is so complicated because of that so I have a question for you long now this is then I I so let's you know think about it that you know you Al Alco is slower because let's say if you were India's the biggest whiskey Market but we have apart from like the biggest guys like rad ketan or you know peros or di of the world nobody's making malt Spirit here one of the reasons is if you start malt you have to mature it for 8 years 12 years now I went the whole route of with zero money starting going to investors in 20178 just with an ice box when the laptop was owned by pora so literally most of the investors back in the day were all Tech investors and they had they were very new to Consumer and any kind of open market money that's available in India looks at that same 11e return that everyone has to give to their LPS seven years s year yeah or even shorter your term sheets are 5 years plus 5 plus two but you probably give the money so how would you now create this kind of if you were to you you see this is a $300 million uh 300 million cases industry largely run by whiskey with zero upgrade happening on product essentially because there's no Capital that can finance a business that can have those many legs or the L of it as a person who is from Finance what would be the product that you would probably create for this this category in terms of funding if somebody would come to you and say I would want to build a mall disher and you know the returns would come after 12 years how would you look at it what would be that good question as a startup yeah as a startup phenomenal product made in a small lab I think we are a little bit of an exception to that rule rule because we are a Perpetual fund of sorts cuz we don't allocate third party money and it's mostly prop money we have really long tenur the current thesis I have uh thesis passion Fascination is to watch Indian Brands kill it abroad uh so be it with radico be it with subco be it with Blu Stone be it ather motorcycles these are all uh or 1111 The Shirt Company uh these are all Investments which are far from maturity uh the question if they will ever mature and turn profitable is also unknown but my thesis today is to find the hero product find places where the product is solved for the rest of it will figure out along the way I'm there right now and I'm happy to take these bets uh passionately take these bets and I have a lot of fun with them nice yeah if I like a product in a certain category the marketing the sales The Narrative the financials all of that come second if I can find a product that can compete internationally I'll do it absolutely but what if a product is born after 5 years his question is that yeah so already a person is there but one is that a person comes I can taste the product in 5 years you mean you get you get the glimpse of it maybe of the no no you'll only get the glimpse of the packaging or whatever but or directionally to maltt and everything it'll take 5 six years your first money your Revenue exactly your Revenue after funding is 7 years let's say six years I I'll tell you my biggest worry and I'm being really honest here with liquor I have to put it in a different box as many of these other Investments which might be an energy transition or whatever cuz there I'm betting sector thesis if I'm betting on a electric vehicle which I will see in 5 years broadly I'm sold to the idea that we'll switch from fossil to renewable and we will need the end point to be electric to have efficiency in the value chain right so if I find a good guy there it's enough with liquor it's a little bit more convoluted because I the data I'm accessing today is we we typically tend to mimic the West in terms of consumption patterns in India and the fact that the genzi are drinking lesser than Millennials is something which is of a worry to me so I would need to buy into the sector truly radico is an exception to me because they have a differentiated Indian first product which is almost patriotic in nature and I love the fact that people are fighting over radical bottles in a beautyfree versus a glen fidic or another brand like that I love the idea of that I like the names I like the taste uh these are elements that appeal to me today but otherwise liquor as a category I would have to be sold and somebody probably will come along the way and sell it I'm I'm not taking the moralistic debate here uh something is legal it's legal people should do it in moderation I'm a capitalistic investor and I will not fiend morality and altruism in a manner that I don't have to and I don't believe in doing it either uh if somebody smart comes to me and says here is this new alcohol it was it's not a imfl it's more like made from I don't know like from some lemong grass or some plant in India and this has history and culture 500 years we will package it this way sell it that way we will take it to Market this way in 5 years from now I would probably bite if he is convincing enough but also 0 to one what I see in the market is very few investors want to back people in the alcohol space I had to P to 80 people and they say alcohol meat that's a first answer I'll tell you we're starting this new fund it's not actually a fund it is a grant it is three times as big as Shark Tank we don't in terms of the amount we give out out we don't take any equity in the businesses that we give these grants to we just looking at young people nice under the age of 25 great ideas no money to execute and we are giving them money through a segregation process not large checks 20 lakhs 40 laks but to a lot of people the end result is if it inculcates entrepreneurship in the country it's something that we're all very passionate about and we're all we're all in this ecosystem where we've been so lucky by virtue of circumstance over the last I don't know 15 20 years uh it has more appeal to me than giving that money to a charity what about celebrity Le brands do you think it works I know in fashion I'll give you an example uh when I've looked at Fashion cosmetic uh Brands led by celebrities in India have not worked globally have worked there's some dichotomy there I don't know why it is not working in India what do you think will be the use case for alcohol so globally uh the people who were building uh the people who were building um alcohol Brands um in America were celebrities and the following was of a certain uh strata and of a certain disposable income that would follow them right so tomorrow if RVE Singh starts an alcohol brand of a premium segment the people will see through that right so I'm not going to start drinking a certain type of product because AR Singh drinks it who should start what which actor should start what I think um Aran Khan what he's doing I think he's doing a good job the Dial Dial he's got a he's got a vodka he's got a m now and he's got a fashion brand I think Zena Aman should do a wine if at all you know I think it's very interesting very interesting yeah you know because see you know's built Aviation how many of the people would know her now no no regardless I'm saying like you know if you see celebrity endorsement or celebrity doing a brand brand old brand does endorsement work because I it's basically putting talking about celebrity definitely yes how about celebrity marketed brand I'm sure you use cele see I've got a lot of experience with lot of we had a lot of brand ambassadors did it work see what happens now as a startup because I started with kind of zero money when I got engaged I didn't have money to open a bottle of champagne that time for my wife I was in Kolkata so that kind we were like stretched totally stretched so what I realized you take a celebrity you buy buy a Mercedes you buy a roll sty but you don't have petrol to put in it so one is the celebrity the film cost but the main thing is airing and doing justice so one is you do justice with it so you have if you take a celebrity you have to do proper Justice you have to spend enough money nowadays celebrity also if you see a movie to in especially now I'm talking today's context a celebrity cost is huge film making is huge then to air it so you have to have a substantial budget but it works with the budget what it does it gets you immediate recall depending on how you use the celebrity but not sales no it'll help you for like you the eyeball eyeballs it's like getting a cricket so like what he said with that the salesman has to be motivated the bar guys have to be motivated the pr should write about it it has to be event should be there so it has to be a 360° term so if you have a x budget then you see where you have to spend it because alcohol it's a dark environment if celebrity marketed brand we have all agreed does not lead to sales but maybe gives you visibility in brand recall does product placement work how does that work the bigger question I have which I want to ask you like we've seen in all the Ecom sites where they have become like you know unicorns and everything see alcohol suppose money is for the private equities no problem problem there's enough Capital which is available now suppose if you have a budget of 300 cres and you say I want to start a brand and in two years I go boom boom boom boom on the TV media whatever dark environment I have do you think will it succeed in a Ecom it might succeed because you buy customers you have were called to action but alcohol I think it's very tough yeah has to build through taste it has to build through generations it has to build slowly what I believe in alcohol you cannot push sales right you have to win sales yeah yeah like as I said first 10,000 is important so even sometimes I brew with that idea whether is it the right strategy but in my last 20 to two decades of my experience I feel it's it's not worked but what ends up happening is 0 to 100 happens when you go into someone else's distribution chain right but the minute you put in 300 crores you want that your sales should happen then you dump the material the or a or diio or a perno to get into that distribution what ends up happening is okay you want to take uh one uh case of Johnny Walker you have to take six bottles of this new brand which I've launched so it's actually literally pushed onto um on so you say you buy this but I have this brand which is not selling still like Bott so then you'll be like I mean this is this is fine let's take example suppose if a guy comes a new guy I want to take your bar shelf I want visibility I'll pay you X lakhs okay you keep this much bottle she'll keep it once but if it does not go and it's a new brand first of all why will anyone come and take a new brand it has to be built gradually am I right yeah it's very difficult in alcohol it's very difficult where you can just pump in monies and consumers will come it's a very slow process and also another very interesting thing about India is before you realize how your products doing you can so what happens a lot of times when you are you can grow by you start off with say South Bombay and South Delhi and Bangalore and in one year there is always in India there is always a rush to try a new product we are a large country people want to try new things because new things don't happen that often so the consumer is drinking your product in say the early City so you see straction coming in but then you say okay you know I'm going to get money raise a large amount of money and I'm going to go into newer markets so by the time you go to tana and you going to the suburbs and everything you're still growing because you're doing primary sales but your original core consumers doesn't come back to you repeat this you start going from Tana now to nask from nask to ratlam it takes you five years and you can still grow year on year but you if you don't measure your sale at Outlet level where you started your core consumer stickiness and repeat then you may show a growth story on the numbers on the balance sheet but in reality you are actually just recruiting new consumers through novelty and losing them as fast as you are doing it and paying a huge amount of money to do it and that's very very wasteful you're saying there's no mo people switch there's no brand what I'm saying is you will go from one geography to another and India is a country you can show growth to anyone any investor yeah but eventually it is a repeat which counts yeah fair so if actors don't necessarily work for India what about social media influencers are they a good medium to sell alcohol yes yeah but sell alcohol means for a brand or what for advertisement 100% they do uh you have to be careful on who you're investing on and uh do your research I feel there now apps and there are ways to actually find out if that influence is bought or of who that person is talking to what the male to female Rao is city which city they are operating in so you go through a agency cheaper way to acquire consumers than than actors but also having said that uh what influencers also do for you is that they are also physically present which actually changes the game a little bit it is kind of like the digital way of experiencing the brand you know in the sense that they will taste say a whiskey and be like I find it like Smokey also depends on the category if the higher you go suppose you go 8 10,000 you don't need any marketing if you Market you won't be able to sell the only thing should be word of mouth and PR press and the competitions if you go highest up there there are spirits competi what worked for your 5 lakh rupee bottle cuz I saw rur Jessel everything even rampur J have done that I saw it in the Press was that organic press yeah yeah organic cuz of the novelty of a bottle cost absolutely it's it's the most expensive Pi that up right there was a huge article that 50% the luxury so I think the higher you go it should be the press and you don't need to mark it because it looks like if you see the Bernard lvmh group I think he's the biggest brand Creator Louis VTO your Mo tennessy Bel all the luxury but you don't see them Beyond a point you don't see them advertising or Beyond then that's a category play so if you're in a luxury segment you will play regular ET social influencers if you're looking at a lower like you know we talking about 12 to, 1400 Lev I influencers are a great thing organically people like your product they post yeah I mean it's also you don't have to now the new generation loves it they are spending half the time on mobile yeah yeah half the time they're on the mobile there is a catch it has to be spoken about yeah right there is a flip side to this where if you come across as a brand that is paying for influence then people see through it very very quickly also so let it be organic you like Which is far better because good people will your relevant consumers will drink your product and they will post about it because today's time also to's time industry is a big influence so for example like I would send him to like if I have a bar in I will tell him or if he's in Delhi I'll be like hey come to my bar and let's have drinks because this is mutual appreciation good for me is good and I always post about it it's a thing right like we are all talking to the same people in the universe but there are all of us have pockets of people who follow you because you they think you know best for the taste you know we'll go to Mini's bar next timei next time you have to make us the best cocktail and being from the alcohol industy have at least three cocktails so three of your best right you should do this if you do this this would be insane far louder it'll be crowded she'll be like wait in line no no we can we can use our influence we know minaki so she'll have a small uh but we like crowds I send you to the CH it's very H in so premiumization is this a easier path for someone starting off to hit instead of trying to create a 1,500 rupee bottle of whiskey should I try to create a 10,000 rupee bottle called Bangalore I mean who's whose question is this it's like so we all talking yeah so I'm I'm so we are I would say creating a 10,000 rupees a bottle also takes that much more out of you in terms of the money the resources the whole everything you you are raising the bar in every form right it's like me saying I can have a bar here and then I can have a bar in say Dubai or London what if I buy radical's good whiskey at 5,000 rupees okay repackage it and call it something else build a story and sell it for 10,000 and is a product this is It's a good slightly different yeah good product it depends what your goto Market strategy is if your goal is to actually launch the 1200 product but your go my story will be 25-year-old boy in Bangalore starts a liquor company whiskey selling at 10,000 20,000 rupees XYZ sold but you have to have something around the whiskey why why this 10,000 I don't feel price pick a like say there are red ants zal there are actual Reds in actual red ANS in the whiskey no those are gimmicks those are gimmicks gimmicks won't take you long you whisky is 10,000 rupees so in these categories where you are creating a niche you have a great product to start with but you have a influencer someone who has authenticity and who says this is nichels Bangalore then it'll sell but then they're buying into you right they're not NE you the ini but your product in in the long term your product will have to be great in order to get your second can you my real question here is can you discern between 5,000 and 8,000 rupe whiskey to a lay man I'm not talking as an expert as one of you guys I'm blind tasting a whiskey which cost 10,000 another which cost four can I distinguish that's objective is very subjective that's subjective but 800 10,000 you 4,000 10,000 buying something for 4,000 adding one El I think you can make out if you're a whiskey person like if I am buying an 8,000 uh you know rupees bottle I will sort of have an idea what I'm looking for you know I might or might not uh with full conviction no but I will know a little bit of what I am looking for and also again see the price price is never the ladder that is just the ladder so you're also talking about what type right so there Japanese that are playing in lower angle I'm playing is because I'm selling it for more people will make a natural assumption that it is not so there is this fuzziness where you see I I'll tell you now let us divide whiskey in two categories either it'll be a scotch or Indian whiskey now a scotch is differentiated by age and location location so 18y old generally it sells for about about close to about J huh a blue label is say 18,000 now a Indian whiskey or anything if you say that you're supplying at 10,000 what is your USP the USP will become a worry then you come on to a single malt single malt is region specific it's a world malt it is different where everything like the wines earlier it was the French wines which were ruling the market today you have all the new age wines new earlier it was only French same thing like The Malt it was only Scottish malt then you had the Irish whiskey the bourban whiskey then the single malts from Japan the Asian the cavins the now the Indian Ms so there you can create that differentiation with your blend with your CK so it is like an artistic no I'm talking about premiumization from the you can't do but price is an indicator of quality and that is a Indian whiskey he can charge say 10,000 no no you can charge anything you want I think you know the basic idea you have to just I know a lot of people who go to a bar and want to order the most expensive thing yeah that's true that's true but if you have a story if you have a story there is an an 8,000 rupee scotch and a 10,000 rupee Indian whiskey that rich person will go for 8,000 rupee Scotch I don't know about that no baba but they will also move they will also jump into the next 10,000 they'll be like okay leaving nichs brand now you have to have a in your you have you have to have like we've attempted where we've really got successful where the first Indian whiskey is at the bio Scotch level 100 rupees higher our Royal RoR is 100 rupees higher than all the competing Brands it's selling like hot cake but the quality the packaging the story is better is very good do you think patriotism as a narrative is selling in India today if I were to create a brand around alcohol 100% I think Indian being a proud like always have advocated being a proud company Indian company is the way forward people are looking for indianess people are proud to be Indian like even if you see all my products it's all indan indianness is euphemism for like rur that 5 lakh rupe bottle has written in Sanskrit on this that happiness lies within so but what is the underlying emotion that you're appealing to when you write in Sanskrit and call it ramp I think like if you see the Indian culture like if you go to New York Indians we are underestimating our power with what has happened in the last decade and what is going to happen in the next decade India from being a third world country we are becoming a superpow it's a translation we have to have that uh belief in ourself yoga I was in New York there was a yoga week or Time Square with I'm agreeing with you so 100% indianess will say if you try to be a foreigner try to be like the Western Community you not different they are better than us but Indians are better than them I'm agreeing with you to the extent that I will give you an example of how the Chinese prefer Chinese versions of different things that is the most 0 89% is Thea margins they're the most valuable listed company in the world so I'm aligned with you the world might be Del globalizing in a manner where patriotism is sold to consumers across the world in different Pockets my question is rooted from to our audience to the entrepreneur who starting a liquor brand whatever liquor should he make that an inherent part of his story no no look for authentic stories it can't be a gimmick it can't be because see you you mentioned you are from a certain you have to have a passion if she started a bar it is a passion which is speaking so there is some something like such the GC have been there it's fantastic or his beard so my point that passion has to speak the story won't S patriotism isn't about being you have to it has to link to the brand and and to The Branding to the crowd that we are talking to should we recommend opening their company in alcohol and Tequila mcal I know me and abishek had long conversations about this where you can only call it tequila if you get this GI tag I believe strongly In Agave based Spirit uh only because of price point what happened to Jin uh in India because of the import duty if we educate if a big uh conate comes up and pushes The Narrative a lot of an AGA based perod because tiil La gets very expensive to serve at a party right if you being serving a basic Don Julio uh Blanco in a place like Delhi you'll be spending about 6,000 rupees a bottle you're entertaining at home now people are drinking tequila the way they drinking vodka so minimum consumption for 30 people party you're doing you you're going to eight bottles right there that's where what's D's brand called pistola pistola pistola has come in at a very good price point from go that's from Goa uh that's from Goa they've come at a very good price point and I believe there is space for AA based spirit in India if there is enough money to educate people that okay yes tequila is has to be blue Weber GA from the region tequila from the region of five six states uh but there is a space for aav Spirit coming out of India this folklore that tequila gives you the least hangover no not at all it is all all marketing all marketing so is Hangover equally proportional to alcohol percentage no it's also ining when you have whiskey see every alcohol is 42.8 basically until let you go for a cast strength now a whiskey has malt so it has let's take say a vodka it is the cleanest Spirit it is triple distilled it is six time distilled Etc filtered so the cleanest Spirit same thing tequila is a clean Spirit even a Jin is a clean spirit with some herbs and so is a rum okay explain to me what is Hangover why do you feel a certain way after a night of so when you drink wine wine for example if you drink a wine or a dark Spirit their their talins their impurities coners it's called congeners so which are called impurities in a spirit you dis yeah that's again chemical little bit of ferment you also create higher alcohols not just ethy alcohol you also create more heavier alcohols which normally in a pot or a still distill you distill out at a lower like a height because it's also alcohol but evaporates so you you have something which is called as a distiller cut so you try to eliminate as much as high alcohol as possible but in beer what we do that's why beer is the hardest because you have no room to hide you're just giving pure fermentation so it's the hardest thing to do because you make a mistake anybody will catch yeah you can make something is wrong with the beer quickly you have to be extremely more careful in terms of how clean you ferment these things cause you hangover yeah so the more uh fermentation is not balanced if your distiller is not really like skilled or how you are cutting it you will actually pass on a lot more higher alcohols and you know all these oil basically there's a term which is called fusal oil heav is that the same for vodka teil wh whiskey is different because whiskey you add malt you add BMS so it is more like if you have a whiskey that's why if you say when you're young basically start from a vodka or a gin it's easier on your pellet and aftertaste whiskey you have to acquire that taste so it's heavy so there if like the VMS the wetted mold Spirit mold Spirit if that is of low maturity then it adds that hangover to you and also with the vka andin it is more clean and Tequila so which is the alcohol if I have the same quantity will I get the least hangover anything which is white vka I think Beka definitely no beer hard liquor or what well made beer of course yeah yeah or beer between vodka tequila rum all three of you I think all the white AG Spirits versus non-age so you can say AG Spirits are difficult because of course lot of things are adding on I'm going to digress and ask a question one I'll come to each of you for a second one underrated liquor at any price point not from your own brands that one should drink absolutely brand brand like they have their own Brands she can't say oh he can't say okay he will not name any brand start with start with minaki one underrated category or one underrated bottle of alcohol underrated I feel like M M's Ry is a great superbly great Ry whiskey which I feel it's it's very difficult to get your hands on and many people don't know about it and I feel that that's a again that's a category uh that and that that's a space that everybody talks about Scotch whiskey and now there's many other whiskies of the world I feel that is is there space for for I to do more interesting for me uh one of my favorite things to drink is uh a compari soda what Kari soda like bits is 28% alcohol compari as a spirit a lot of people just have it in a Negroni uh but as a as a drink I think Kari is one of my favorite things to drink how is it underrated though it is underrated because most people on a regular basis whether it is underrated or not like um maybe the availability is less or what I love a glen Goen what is that Glen Goen it's a maltt yeah Glen Coy yeah Glen Coy gleny is 21 I love it well awarded very well pleased but you don't get it much India has availability issue I think recently I tasted maybe like an aged rum called mesma Indian rum aged interesting effort you know in terms of like so because there's nothing happening on rum Indian Ram yeah and at a premium price point I sipped at it at bar and it was quite interesting in terms of product I think that's yeah because there's so much more happening in whiskey where there's big money and there big multinational like perno Dio all launching their Indian malls now it's not just Amud Paul John and um radico it's open up quite a lot so I think whiskies all Indian whiskies tend to follow a certain pattern but I found one Paul John's Christmas bold Edition was actually a very nice Sherry oroso cast finish this year's phenomenal how big are prepackaged cocktails ready to drink non-alcoholic cocktail mixers as an industry do you see scope there for somebody to build in I I think I have a very contrary opinion on Czar in general because I think what is a czer so you know the whole idea that us really took off with czers now the last three years it's Czar claw and czers were basically Brewers who were putting simple Ena which is extra neutral alcohol with some sparkling water and you know just like low calorie but if you look at every Indian if you go to any AATA the way every Indian is drinking he's drinking a czar on his own the Americans were mixing their with whis with Coke but we in India are anywhere mixing with soda and water so if you going to create a cza everybody's making their own Czar here so how are you even it's it's so it's it's to make something like that from a cultural context might be relevant to us but it will be very different in terms of stickiness to India it's still still a very Urban basically sells as a vodka soda yeah I mean technically it's a vodka soda it's anything which is but India we drink everything on soda but go started that right sod so anything food it could be what say you whatever so it could be any flavor so what about like pre- ready cocktail mix oldfashioned mix thing is the the distribution is still the same as as an alcohol no you still have to get the same license you still have to get the same uh distribution you have to still have the same retailer and at that price point if I'm picking up a pre-made at50 rupees which not come into my house on a blinket or swiy I have to go to a take to pick that I rather pick up a bottle of alcohol and mix it at home what's the deal with wine stores across the country do they make 10% my answer on this would be different I think it's a slow burner the old fashioned one right no there's not enough players who have jumped into this field you think there potential here it's only bakadi who's there is Breezers yeah okay that's the only comp biggest Global player right now we are talking about alcoholic or non Al has entered the game has entered India H indiaia so I think the minute competition comes in this category can explode because the main issue here is the refrigeration what happens people want it cold the liquor shops are very the size is very small so you give them a fridge basically space like why beer is not growing because let's let's be clear beer drinking the premium Spirits drinking happens at home if we go to a side car if you have expensive whiskey and cost 4,000 rupes for a 60 ml people think twice but the home they'll order especially Co has changed that beer they want to drink on the spot and that's why refrigeration system in our liquor stores is very less so I think the minute that increases I think this is a category which can explode but there needs to be competition you need to bring in flavors you need to bring in the business of wine stores good business if somebody wants to start off I don't have too much information on that though like Old School win store how does it work does does it work on 10% margin acoss has system so you would know better on the tender system that happens at least in see see what happens like nowadays the uh like what you seen in Maharashtra with the liquid gold and everything they have institutionalized the entire livid living liquid is uh they have U instiz the entire uh the experience but I don't know how it operates it's not that easy but I think it's profitable it's very profitable and uh if you get your maths right you should not get into a place where you go for auctions but if you have a license system 100% you can do a great job right but now now but usually in G it works on some bidding system and then actually the store doesn't pay for for construction they go to a Dio they go to perno and they say this is my space turn it around in 30 days and then it's a full branded store of of a certain brand but I think the opportunity also is in very Niche products now in the wine category because you know you can have just craft and wine bars or like you know Outlets which are a very specific the license is different right it could be the same license also give an example like say for radico if we get an opportunity where we can enter into a liquor store business where it is coriz like you know corporates can get into it licensing is not an issue like the Dy every state is different so you cannot generalize the entire country how much is duty free cheaper than I know every state is different but let's say Maharashtra for example or Karnataka or Delhi what is the price of dutyfree alcohol versus price on ground so it depends like in in Delhi especially in a place like GGO alcohol is not very expensive because your taxes are lower dutyfree also takes a percentage of your sales which actually now from G to dutyfree there's not too much difference at least from gooda to a Delhi dutyfree no you're talking about a dutyfree say a Mumbai and a Mumbai dutyfree airport or what are you no no I'm talking about Mumbai airport dutyfree versus Mumbai retail shop yeah that so let's give an example say rampur in the Mumbai duty free would be 8,500 and in the retail 12,000 but delh to uh Delhi Duty fee to Gan would not be that different comp talking about the state versus the dutyfree airport uh Bombay to a Bombay Airport would be uh higher difference versus a Delhi to a good and online delivery of alcohol make it happen e-commerce what is the issue with it are some people doing it some people not doing it so West w got a license it's a State subject so uh say West Bengal has agreed to it and is making money off it which is intelligent of them but then some online would be what only 5% or hardly yeah but the fact that they've made it easy for for for all of us but I have living liquids in Bombay also does something uh with online delivery W it move power away from you guys to the large e-commerce aggregators like it like it does for other products like fashion okay I I'll change that what happens like say the women they can't go to a store so the consumers it'll expand what margins we are giving to the retail or for anything is the same thing but the distribution becomes very easy but what is to be said that Amazon tomorrow will not start a khur instead of rampur and push that higher up in their algorithm see if you see glob if you see globally H online retail when it was covid London everywhere it was on except India 45 days we were dry that's why the media if you see they made a huckus about it but anything which is say food there would be so much of Q so online delivery was there is prevalent in us everywhere but as a kpur or a nagpur or a rampur Amazon has not been able to deliver that because alcohol production is very different from a commodity a brand is different it's a luxury it's experience you're saying if it goes online will you go to an aggregator or will you want to do the delivery yourself no if I become a delivery guy like say Amazon but then it's a different kettle of the logistic can happen through an e-commerce player but brand Ming will still happen offline of course you'll go to an aggregator why won't you I mean you want to open it up you would want to open up to everybody else and why would you not see as long as the aggregator is making a let's say agreeable sum which is always a point of contention with aggregators right so if they take a decent sum out of your business and give you the increase your width of distribution recy happens faster and easier this is cash right this is retail so this is a cash and carry situation I mean I why would you not I think it be fining Finance your inventory it's a great see big biggest problem here is legali it's like saying that anybody above legal drinking age below legal drinking age cannot be and then you'll have these kids who are ordering alcohol all of that like who was regulating the versus the logistics like a a kid can today order a burger but a kid cannot order a gin there is a whole lot of you know there would be a margin problem in my opinion because if you give too much power to the aggregator let's say the Blended margin for a successful brand in the retail is somewhere around 12 to 15% including your trade scheme nobody goes beyond that unless you are a very early brand and it's a push sale that's a completely different equation so any Aggregate and the cost of selling liquor at a te or a liquor outlet is very frugal the employment structure the salaries everything the cost of volume versus the money invested to do that transaction is less and it's also so when you do the delivery model and you start adding that extra cost I think somewhere around you you're already having your back towards the wall when it comes to margins for liquor companies if it stretches to what zomato swiggy do or 25% then it becomes very very unviable and that's almost like how us large big you know box retailers operate where they have far more leverage they make distribution easy for you but then it's also kind of like pregamed here you still have a great opportunity if you understand the Nuance of the market you go granular you hack you play one one one market where it's easy there's still so many low-lying fruits I think what happens if import Duty on foreign liquor I read somewhere that the percentage is going down 150 to 30 yeah can Indian alcohol compete with International alcohol s any kind of Duty if it comes down to 30 it'll be tough competition they've said no it'll be phased to 30% over 3 years no no right now it is 150 50% it'll come down to 100 in one year one year next year no that's what I don't know they're planning or whatever it is and then in 5 Seven Years it'll come down to 50% so today also if you see Indian production are priced higher like say our malt is priced higher than any of the uh the well-known malts also it's very so price perception has become different also what happens like lot of Indian companies are importing lot of scotch from outside yeah so that value comes down straight away the profit goes up so I think it is like it's it's good for the economy it has to be a balanced and it'll be healthy yeah like for for example for bars it's it's worse for me to buy Indian Brands versus buying International Brands can you imagine like this is this is so funny so I have to buy a case minimum case is case could be six or 12 whatever that you know your your packaging is and you have to pay more taxes to buy Indian Brands which are Made in India versus I if I buy a scotch and a gin some somewhere else I actually why is that but because I'm actually buying far more quantity like my quantity in up we are done so you can buy a bottle in Delhi you have to buy 12 bottles so buy single bottle I can't buy single bottle of ramp if I buy I have to buy 12 which basically means look at my inventory so I'm sitting on 12 bottles and I have to sell it for whenever time whichever time it takes me to sell for a Brands especially for super premium and premium brand is very tough like they come and say okay buy two and the rest are free which is terrible for them like as as as as makers of the brand right I mean they don't want to give it for free and I don't want to buy it for free I can sell it right so it's terrible it's terrible overall for the Indian Brands I feel to sell in uh sell in on trade interesting I think we've covered everything like can you guys think of something a young person starting off will need that we haven't spoken about yet I think if you can just touch upon like how does one go and get a um get registered to sell in a state like I would want to know that myself like I've got the product made I've got my co-packer now it's done Goa product ready next May how do I go to Delhi and who do I go to which department how do I go about that process to get my brand registered and who do I go and pay no no you don't have to pay anyone it's all official but what happens official only how do who which department excise excise Department you have to get your label registered like every state has a different and for every state by the way like like say every state is as I said 28 states are like 28 different countries Karnataka you go when you register excise will put your label for 40 days someone if someone objects they will say no there is a criteria once you get then you get registered then you supply your material go it is easier yeah go is the easiest up then in certain states you have to once a year the label you can apply if you take the pricing you cannot increase the pricing if the government does not allow you to so every state has a different uh uh uh system so label has to be different for every state No Label has to be same but suppose if you have a different pricing then the descriptor Etc has has different pricing the EDP the EDP means X distill price okay so that has to be like certain states have that you have to have the lowest price the lowest EDP it's another math wants the lowest has always wanted the lowd wants the lowest so they ask for it they say are we the cheapest in India only then you can register so you have to claim it like and you have to actually say no I'm the cheapest with you so it's like you going to 10 markets and then saying I'm the cheapest with you but so then you have to follow through right you can't also cheat on how can you be the cheapest with 10 no like you or ex distiller price let's say is 11100 for Goa but you only have 250 R in taxation which is the lowest then your price becomes 14450 1350 but let's say you are in Delhi and you have to pay another 1,000 rupees then you go 2100 so your MRP on the consumer end will be different but you could be cheapest in both the states at the same time but because of the tax because of the also the excise policies in certain states determine that you cannot have differential pricing in different states they want to regulate it to that so like for example do you have a person in your company who does this for you or who policies you no I think eventually everybody learns I mean but the state you have all the state head it's like a it's a I'm talking about people from Z to one like if I want to start something I would not know where to go to um and understand this taxation I think you know my personal experience has been like so when I was just to ask a question is to Spirits you have to be initially is easier yeah okay and is it easier in low ABV to Spirits huh no no it's the same for everyone but I think you know when you it's a government department so you know you probably so I'll tell you one experience of mine so when I was just starting out and we didn't have a policy or a license to allow you to bottle so literally go and like you know work with every little desk in the excise Department from one step to the other so I spent literally 6 months in the Goa excise Department Department I would go every morning after quitting my job 9:00 to 6:00 and one day there was a fire that broke out in that excise office so the commissioner came out and he did a roll call because of the employees and he said Brewing I've gone through all this you know so so it is that level of you know to you understand once you know then you got a favorable policy which allowed you to do it but you had to literally go and convince people that you know you want to do this and that's how government departments the same thing like what what they face in building uh products I face that in doing events absolutely yeah so in a place like Delhi Delhi is great to do events good Gau for example if I do a sale of two cres of alcohol from an event right I have to pay 18% vat upfront of total salable amount beforehand to the government even though I'm giving free stock secondly in a place like Bangalore they cannot give me free stock I have to physically go as a event owner go and buy stock which will be block of about 50 to 60 lakh rupees of mine before the event so they and they look they look at you like you're doing something wrong why you picking up 600 cases of alcohol for an event what type of event are you doing not for him he's they look at you very differently so whenever I go to the offices Because by the end of a license have get taken on my name you know when you come on manufacturing you have hologram you have track and Trace you have so many things and it keeps changing it's it's like a is duplication a big problem for you see duplication now what has happened is each state as you rightly said the figure 22% of Up's Revenue everyone is so dependent on the excise revenue and if any state has to succeed they don't allow duplicacy so this was a problem 15 20 years back when I started work now it's gone minimal but you can see some Progressive changes like absolutely we've seen like even in Delhi everything now that since I mean we've been operating in Dei and it had it went online it was great it was barcoded everything which is like it was so much easier for us to pick up stuff from retail pay size and then deal with the retailers like our life became so much simpler detailer at a point time yeah yeah exactly so what I'm saying is there are really like you know small changes which keep happening and we've seen that over a period of time basically we should be like the software industry like Bangalore Karnataka where the government didn't interfere Beyond a point and the industry flourished so the minute if we pay Revenue have the excise check at the point of the factory at the revenue and let it live open it up yeah same thing open a bar man like 30 license sorry 30 licenses it's a lot of licenses so I mean we know how much it takes to even packing you still good when you're building your own dis the licenses are like chemical and fire to understand one a like on the other side like you invting to sell food liquor can make too much money or is it like like a how do I say it's like a it's like a like like the liquor industry like people have a feeling that you know it makes too much money or it's very easy to make money yeah what do you feel I don't think so the number of brands that have shut down during covid is Testament to how difficult it is to make money in the liquor industry also in the bar industry I feel very few people make money yeah uh but the ones who make money and succeed for a prolonged period will continue will probably make a lot more money which is fair it's capitalism right gradual distribution exactly I think survival of the fittest yeah eventually yeah yeah no but isn't that true for every every indry is that true for every industry like you have to be resilient okay last part of today is at the end of every podcast every show we have something that we do to the young Community we've been speaking to throughout so we all allocate a certain amount of money it can be anything it can be 100 rupees it can be x amount and then we will all get together and together decide which young startup in Liquor Bar fantastic events to invest in so I'm just going to go around ask you guys to commit some amount of money we can start with surage I'll commit like five lakhs you can make it anything you can make huh 20 yeah yeah I'll match five lakhs okay yeah okay five what are we doing though is it a we making little 40 55 like really tiny no but it's seed investment can get you a it can get you started off with a co- packing because not setting up a disy unfortunately just find a bright kid like a really bright kid who has potential to build something give him this money and say go explore that would and we'll figure out who the kid is together probably come from you guys cuz you know more people here than I do nice okay thank you everyone for coming I hope you all had fun and last thank you so much for having us yeah thank you so much we work together look forward to working with all of you for both of us in one day or have to do a Delhi un and then a un no at least I made three friends yeah absolutely done thanks guys thank you you lovely [Music] super is in yeah this state too St go [Music]