says before Abraham was born I am his listeners had no problem understanding what he was claiming they picked up stones to Stone him for blasphemy [Music] those who are born into different religions and different Faith how does God save [Music] them yes okay your question is those who are born into different religions how does God save them well God Saves them the same way he saves You and Me by his holy spirit he draws them to himself he draws them to Jesus Christ Christ and then they have to make a decision to say yes or no the same way we here at the University of Illinois have to make a decision yes or no now what about those people who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus I do not know how God will judge those people because Jesus never specifically answers the question but he makes Five Points that apply to your excellent question first point is God is just nobody's going to get ripped off second point is nobody's going to hell because of ignorance the only reason people go to hell is because they choose to live their life separate from God and on the day of judgment God will grant their request and they'll spend eternity separate from him third point there going to be a lot of people in heaven who never heard the word Jesus Hebrews chap 11 in the New Testament list some of these people by name Moses Abraham Isaac Jacob Rahab a gentile prostitute obviously never heard the word Jesus they were born hundreds of years before him but in humility they put their faith in God and they're going to be in heaven fourth point the only reason those folks are going to be in heaven the only reason any of us will be in heaven Jesus insisted is because he bled and died on a cross to pay the penalty for our wrongdoing in other words nobody nobody's going to be in heaven because they lived a good life because none of us have lived a good life as God defines good that's why all of us beginning with me need Jesus Christ and his forgiveness through his death on the cross fifthly and finally although I do not know specifically how God will judge those who' have never heard about Christ I do know that all of us here have more than ample opportunity to read the gospels to examine Jesus we are responsible for what we do at Jesus so as a Muslim I wouldn't go to heaven as a Muslim if you reject the deity of Christ if you reject his death on the cross for your sin you will go to hell Jesus said but doesn't in the same context of the Bible does it say not to judge isn't that passing judgment by saying that I'll go to hell because I'm Muslim you essentially are judging me and taking on the role of God who was the only one who can pass judgment who is the only one who will deem who will enter his kingdom correct good question slavery is wrong am I being judgmental slavery is wrong slavery is something that was done in the name with the justification of Christianity okay now please answer my question when I say slavery is wrong am I being judgmental no that's common sense that's common sense if I say the rape of a woman is wrong is that mean being judgmental no if I say the followers of David Kesh and Jimmy Jones made a big mistake is that being judgmental no okay when Jesus says judge not lest you be judged he's not saying suspend your critical thinking and accept everything as equally valid because 14 verses later in Matthew 7:15 Jesus says beware of false prophets they come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly they're ferocious wolves now Muhammad claimed to be a prophet of God and when you read the Quran and take it seriously obviously Muhammad contradicts Jesus if I'm a follower of Christ and I believe that Jesus is reliable be it Muhammad be it Joseph Smith I'm going to say I'm sorry I'm convinced those are false prophets that's not mean being self-righteously judgmental it's a simple issue of Truth Christ made some truth claims claims Muhammad made some truth claims they contradict my Muslim friends look me in the face and say Cliff you're going to hell it's not being judgmental on their part I've read the Quran I know they're right if Muhammad spoke the truth I am going to hell cuz I'm an idolator I worship Jesus in in the sense of contradicting what do you I don't I don't understand when you say that Muhammad um contradicts Jes I don't understand it repeatedly in the Quran Muhammad said Jesus is not God he's a good Prophet okay repeatedly in the gospels Jesus claims to be God where do you see that I've read the Bible from front to back I do believe that with people saying that that's interpretational I've never read where Jesus said I am God I've never seen that you're right Jesus never says I am g o d instead in John 8:58 Jesus says says before Abraham was born I am the Jewish people who are listening pick up stones to Stone him why because they understood yve their name for God I am who I am Jesus applied it to himself and they were going to Stone him for blasphemy and Jesus didn't say time out you misunderstood drop your Stones no Jesus stood by his claim before Abraham was born I am remember after Jesus rose from the dead he appeared to the apostles except for Thomas okay the other Apostles came up to Thomas and said we saw Jesus risen from the dead Thomas said uhuh I refuse to believe unless I can see Jesus with my own eyes I refuse to believe unless I can take my hands and put them in the nail prints in his hands take my hand and thrust it in the spoon in his side one night all the apostles were together we read in the Gospel of John including Thomas suddenly Jesus stood among them to Jesus walked right up to Thomas and said my man right here take your hands and put them in the nail prints in my hands take your hand and thrust in the spear in my side and Thomas stop doubting and believe now Thomas's response ma'am is crucial Thomas hits the floor and says my Lord and my God now Jesus responds is crucial Jesus looks Thomas in the face and says you believe because you've seen blessed are those who will believe even though they have not seen in other words by accepting the worship of Thomas Jesus is obviously claiming to be God no you're right no Jewish person would say worship me go on come on guys worship me that didn't blasphemy there's truth in what Jesus says there's truth in what all the prophets say I have no doubt in my mind about that and but when you put somebody in the position of God that is just like that's if you're God I want to say if you're truly God you can do if you're truly God you wouldn't have to eat God doesn't have kids God doesn't have human humanistic I I beet God was not begotten he doesn't beet he doesn't I mean it's un he could take clay he could take dirt he could take a rib and create you don't there's no need for that and I don't like I can't if you ask if you could can you truly explain the Holy Trinity to me just basic English can you explain the Holy Trinity to me Jesus never uses the word Trinity and I don't have to use the word Trinity instead in Mark 12: 29-31 Jesus repeats the schma of Israel he says here o Israel the Lord our God is one love the Lord your God with all your heart soul mind and strength love your neighbors yourself so obviously Jesus stuck to strict monotheism okay but then Jesus went ahead and talked about his father as being God then he went ahead and talked about himself as being God and then he went ahead and talked about the Holy Spirit as being God so he stuck to one God but three dimensions Father Son and Holy Spirit now whatever you want to call that is fine with me but let's just stick with what Jesus talked about Jesus talked about God my Lord like doesn't it say throughout the Bible you are children of God you you are the children of the Lord no it doesn't say that it doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible in John 1 it says that if you put your faith in Christ you become a child of God okay so you're child of God right those who put their faith in Christ become a child of God correct I do not become Jesus I do not become part of God I become a spiritual child of God that is very different from Jesus who made this unique claim to be God in human form I have yet even from the things that you have said to me seen an instance where Jesus claims to be God Jesus well I told you very clearly in John 8:58 Jesus says before Abraham was born I am his listeners had no problem understanding what he was claiming they picked up stones to Stone him for blasphemy and secondly I told you that when Thomas saw Jesus risen from the dead dead Thomas bowed before Jesus and said my Lord and my God and Jesus blessed Thomas for that and accepted worship well if I accept worship from him I am claiming to be God if I say to you if I'm a monotheistic Jew and this guy gets down on his knees before me and worships me and I say boy you are outstanding you've seen the light it's a claim I'm God worship me it's healthy it's right okay you can't escape that if if a KN returns from a crusade if a Knight Returns from a crusade and he comes in what's the first thing he's about to do I don't know he's about to get down on one knee before he gets that little knife tapped on his shoulder right I mean we've I mean come on let's be serious we've all seen a little movie I can't believe you're going back to that ma'am in light of the fact I told you you got a fragment of James from the first C second century that has nothing to do with it it has everything to do with it the New Testament was not put together in the Middle Ages can you read Greek yeah I had to learn it it was a very painful study for me the say in this what is that verse say in there which one the one in linoln Hall what does it say the one in your museum is a fragment of the Book of James I can't remember what chapter it is but it's a fragment of the Book of James and it's from the 100s which obviously means if James was written and was we have a fragment of it from the 100s then obviously the New Testament was not written in the Middle Ages with knights and kings and Lords It Was Written in the first century and we got a second century copy of it right here in your Museum what would you say about the fate of uh individuals and religious denominations who they have a sincere belief in God a Supreme Being but they don't necessarily accept Jesus as the Son of God you bet what do you say to a person who says Cliff I really believe in God but I just can't accept Jesus well my first question is who are you trusting to reveal God accurately none of us have had dinner with God none of us have had a coke with God Mell does not have hell Heaven's telephone number listed so none of us have talked with God on a telephone and I would insist that none of us are smart enough to figure out God with our rational minds but the reason that doesn't frustrate me is simple I'm not smart enough to figure you out the only way I'm going to get to know you is if you open up and reveal to me the truth about yourself if you remain silent or if you lie to me I'm never going to get to know you never well the same thing is true with God I'm not smart enough to figure out God and if God remains silent or if God lies I'll never get to know God but if God opens up and tells me the truth about himself herself itself themselves whatever God is then it's possible for me to know God now that's exactly what Jesus Christ claimed to be he claimed to be God opening up revealing the truth about who God is obviously Jesus is either an incredible egomaniac blowing smoke all over the place or else he's speaking the truth that's why you and I have to read those gospels examining his lifestyle examining his teachings examining his death examining his resurrection from the dead why cuz we have to figure out is Jesus a liar is Jesus blowing smoke or is Jesus speaking the truth when he claims to be God opening up Jesus pointed out that if I reject him I am rejecting God a man named Jesus Christ did exist yet but the evidence does not state that he was the Christ that you say anymore than the evidence states that if I were to die for you I okay the evidence that points to Jesus being the truth is his sinless life his tremendous ethical teachings his death where nail to wen Cross Beam instead of cursing his enemies the way I probably would have he prayed father forgive them for they know not what they do but fourthly and most important L 3 days after he died he physically bodily rose from the dead and over a period of 40 days he appeared to over 500 people who saw him risen from the dead that's why I trust Jesus I can't prove him you're absolutely correct I can't prove him but the overwhelming evidence is Jesus Christ is reliable that's why I take a step of faith and trust in him now would you give me an because he's reliable pardon because he's reliable yes I trust people who are reliable who give me evidence that they're credible and reliable and the reason that I trust Jesus Christ is is because the overwhelming evidence is he is reliable in a way that none of the options are give me a better option for my faith in Jesus you want to have eternal happiness there's no more sure way in your mind you're as sure as anyone can be right until you actually die in experience that's right I can't prove that I'm going to heaven I'm convinced I'm going to heaven because Jesus Promised eternal life to everyone who trusts in him and the evidence is Jesus doesn't lie the evidence is Jesus said I'm going to die and rise from the dead and the historical evidence is he pulled it off ma'am I can promise you if you die and rise from the dead I will listen very very carefully to everything you have to say why because the evidence is you are amazingly reliable so does everyone listen to everything Lazarus said well Lazarus didn't raise himself from the dead it was Jesus who raised Lazarus from the dead and yes Lazarus put his faith in Christ and when Thomas saw Jesus risen from the dead Thomas hit the floor and said my Lord and my God why because the the evidence was Jesus is reliable he was dead he's risen from the dead so basically you're saying like Mass hallucination no no no no no no the resurrection appearances of Christ when you read the gospels are clearly not mass hallucinations in Luke chap 24 when Jesus appears risen from the dead to his Apostles they think we're hallucinating and Jesus Walks right up to them and says grab hold of me and see a spirit does not have flesh and Bone the way you see I have give me some food to eat it and so he ate food in front of them so he was dealing with that precise excellent question you're raising hey it's all hallucination and Jesus says no it's really me I have really risen from the dead I I don't really know I haven't studied the Bible or anything that much but I believe he probably was a a great man that touched uh obviously thousands and thousands of people and a very profound way now whether he was the son of God and whether he actually was resurrected and this and that I'm I have no idea I would if I was to guess I would say no just because of my secular beliefs but uh I don't know for sure okay why do you hold secular beliefs why do I hold secular beliefs because I formed them based on everything that I've been able to take in in my short 23 years what is love according to your secular beliefs oh I have a uh to be consistent I have a very difficult time um defining that too it's uh it's a it's a feeling and it it could be different for a a lot of people you can love for one person could be totally different than love for another person so but if your secular view is right then love is simply a biochemical reaction may be very complex but if there is no Supernatural God then love is simply biochemical reaction I could I could you I think I could simplify to that I AG agree with that so when she looks you in the face and says I love you you understand what that means is there are some biochemical reactions going off in my body and I use the word love to describe these biochemical reactions that's all it is body and mind and you know and my future plans for you and all those things compiled for this word that we've chosen yeah uh-huh in fact if you keep on thinking about it you begin to realize we don't have free will Free Will is an illusion if your secular worldview is right because Free Will implies that I have a personality a will that goes beyond the biochemical reactions there's actually an eye but if we embrace the secular world view we understand no there's no eye there's simply complex biochemical reactions I am a machine complexes all get out but I'm just a machine it's something just by but I I think just cuz there's something that we can't explain it doesn't mean you have to go to a a default explanation such as uh God or whatever your default explanation for that thing is I can't explain it but that doesn't mean that your explanation is correct either yeah but the pickle that you're in is you have already reduced reality with your secular world view your secular world viw has crossed off God and you've said everything's matter in energy fine you've done the reductionism not me now if what you say is true that everything is matter and energy then there is no I there's no me that goes beyond the complex biochemical reactions I agree and everything that this body does is simply a result of the complex biochemical reactions programming me a certain way yeah therefore if I go up and kick him in the jaw and you ask me why did you do it and I say cuz I had to do it my biochemical reactions program me go up and kick him in the jaw what do you say to me uh you should get a better hold of your complex biochemical reactions but there's no me to get a hold of the complex biochemical reactions cuz remember you have reduced me to Simply biochemical reactions no I have I haven't reduced it I think there is an eye I just can't explain the eye to you and but I don't but I don't but just because I can't explain the eye to you I know it doesn't mean that I agree with your personal concept of the eye either so think there is an eye that controlled that kick it's just I'm not wise enough to explain that eye to you neither scientifically or philosophically yes but the problem is the secularist has already limited reality to matter and energy well this particular seculars hasn't I think there I I think there is um more to that eye and I just think I just can't explain it nor can I explain it through any particular religion at this point sir my point is simple the only way there can be an eye a free will is if there is something more to me than simple matter and energy okay there's got to be some type of Soul some type of Personality some type of individuality and the only way that can exist is if there's more to reality than matter and energy and secularism limits reality to matter and energy that's the whole point of evolution is an origin the whole point of evolution is an origin is there is no God we're just matter and energy evolv to a higher order the problem is your experience of love your experience of free will your experience of moral absolutes violates that worldview so violently what what do you think about a b about a guy battering his wife you think that's okay um yeah okay then you're being consistent okay and I'm standing out here saying for a man to batter his wife is absolutely wrong and if you try and batter your wife I'm going to do everything within my power to communicate to you stop it and then I will also go and call the police and if needs be I will try and physically intervene why because I'm convinced that that woman has an innate value and dignity and someone battering her is absolutely evil now maybe I'm wrong maybe you're right maybe Everything's Relative but if I believe what you say that Everything's Relative then I have no business stopping a guy from battering his wife that's his definition of good if I believe that Everything's Relative I can't be so arrogant as to tell a man stop battering your wife that's his trip all right but what about her trip I mean what if she's not happy with it well Live and Let Live it's everybody's own decision you see moral relativism is an intellectual option it's a practical imposs ability if you're a moral relativist just think about your position on battered wives abused children homosexual rights and abortion rights and if you're a moral relativist whatever your position is on those four points you have to acknowledge that the opposite of your position is equally valid I don't think you live that way no I do exactly you do live that way yeah absolutely adamant and my goal in life is to have give everybody the freedom that that I think that they deserve freedom to be evil or the freedom to be good like whatever good that's you and I would fundamentally disagree there I don't call it freedom to be evil I call that moral license I missed you on that all right for you to whoop up on a woman okay is not Freedom it's moral license it's being irresponsible okay for you to put machine gun bullets into the bodies of children in McDonald's is not more Freedom that's moral license and I will seek to stop you not because I'm arrogant because I think that my morality is better than yours but because I am convinced that those little children in whose bodies you're spraying machine gun bullets have an intrinsic innate value because they're created in the image of God and when you put the machine gun bullets in their bodies not only do you harm them but you possibly are killing them and that's an attack on a person and it's an attack on the god in whose image that person's created okay I think have an intrinsic value nothing to do with like being Godly or anything but just by being alive and being able to feel pain and I will try probably harder than you would to stop that person like San has this Ro but very okay even if it only is because it makes me feel bad to see little kids being hurt maybe it's completely selfish it it doesn't matter but then if you're a moral relativist you've got to acknowledge that obviously the guy who's spraying the machine gun bullets in the little children's bodies is obviously getting a thrill from it that's why he's doing it so it's just your thrill versus versus his thrill right now my point is I don't think you really believe that do you do you really live that out consistently I believe that both are live wet out exactly that if a guy rapes well that's his Pathway to Thrill in life and that is just as legitimate as your path which is no you don't rap right do you think that those are both equally legitimate paths in life legitimate yeah yeah definitely okay I argue that for a guy to rape a woman is illegitimate it's evil it's wrong it's an abuse of the power that they have hey guys thanks so much for watching this episode would love for you to join the family and hit that subscribe button also wanted to invite you to our church Grace Community Church in new Canan Connecticut hope to see you there [Music]