[Applause] all right Michael welcome to the man talk show how you doing brother good man I'm glad we finally did this the first time we tried to do this we had a power outage in Hollywood I remember and we had no signal yeah that was a that that was a mess I was like you know what this is going to be bad we should definitely reschedule this conversation so uh let's just start high level how do you describe the work that you do and the work that you do with men yeah so so what I did was it a combination of several things um I started to look I I actually came up maybe 15 20 years ago uh vaguely just in the pickup Community um and I and I knew something was wrong with it and I don't mean to like be hypercritical of them but I I knew something was wrong as far as like their understanding of how attraction worked I think at some point I um I met some guys who were uh Club promoters worked in night life and I watched what they do in comparison to what guys on the internet were saying was helping men become attractive to women uh and then I probably around 2015 I met Ty Lopez who introduced me to Dr David bus and I started taking the experiences that ID had for 25 years from my clients and for myself and then I started comparing that and started saying okay what does evolutionary psychology say about these specific ideas when it comes to ambition aggression when it comes to jealousy Etc and then I started to see that the the the conclusions that I saw from like Jeffrey Miller William Castello David bus Etc they were the same conclusions that I was seeing empirically watching uh back and forward so when I started my podcast in 2021 I had Dr bus on maybe the second month I was on and when I when I interviewed him I was like I agree with all of this this is really really interesting so I I started diving deep into evolutionary psychology and basically the the best way to describe my program is I'm a male performance coach uh uh I'm a performance coach for men and the way I I like to say it is throughout history men who have had better networks have always been able to Garner more resources and had more access to uh had more sexual selection so I basically use Concepts in networking uh and I use it for men to be able to grow their business uh to be able to get better jobs to find better Partners to find better friend groups that uplift them um and I do I use very specific ideas from science but I I do I use the scientific ideas to break it down so some of my more logical clients can understand it and I'm sure you've had to deal with this before too you have a hyper logical client who's very good at his business but when it comes to women he has a problem because he doesn't how to he's still speaking the language of logic and it doesn't work so I I'm I'm almost try to teach them how to translate between the two um that's something that I do but um I work in uh networking communication leadership and dating I'm also a former US military officer I flew special ops for five years in a KC 135 and then I did Counter Intelligence for two years and I take a lot of the principles I got from the military and I put them into my program I have a program that has about 3,500 clients in it right now there are um the program is a little bit over 130 modules long there's 35 books in the required list it takes about a year to get through my program and at the end um you are going to be the guy that all your friends meet their girlfriend through you're going to be the guy that all your friends get their job through you're going to be the guy that all the friends come to for recommendations you're going to be the guy when people stop into your town you're going to be the first guy people call and they're like hey man I need a restaurant recommendation get me into this club etc etc I make you sort of the Social Hub of of your Arena um and just like there's one other thing I I I just want to point out because I think we talked about this before it's this massive misconception when you and I were growing up there was like this 10 level of Fame that existed so this would be like when I was growing up this would be like Ronald Reagan Tom Cruz Arnold swz this is like 10 and then like there's this zero level of Fame which is like the janitor at your high school right he no one knew who he was and there was like no mid-tier level of fame maybe like your mayor was like a mid-tier level of Fame because of the internet because of social media because of streaming there's this mid level of Fame right so if you think of someone like like say Chris Williamson or Patrick bed David they're not as famous as the rock or you know Barack Obama but or Cristiano Ronaldo but they're still in this mid-tier level of Fame that wouldn't have existed reality TV shows that that's like this mid-tier level of Fame I teach guys on a scale of one to 10 to get to like a one or a two to where when they go out everyone at least knows them so like uh whenever I tell guys you know go on dates regular places have the chef come out and greet you when you're on a date an incredible incredible attraction trigger things like that I teach guys to get to like a one or two level of Fame it's not really Fame but like a level of status and in doing so you find that dating becomes it's on easy mode it's it's very very simple and the the the functions to do this are very simple and don't require money and so I go through those things and break them down uh and I've had a you know like I said before um we we just crossed 3500 clients I've been doing this for about four years uh and I've been coaching for 16 years but this company I've been doing for about four years and it's just been a labor of love and it's just been uh I hope I get to do this for the rest of my life nice man nice and it's always feels so good when you found a sense of purpose and and meaning I mean it's interesting because I I always tell guys like your your Social Circle is a is a uh a symbol of status right it's like a woman a woman doesn't just date you she dates also yes the vision that you are based on the men that you surround yourself with and I think that I think that the generations that follow us unfortunately the younger Generations have been very poorly educated trained uh brought up to actually have really good social skills and so that hurts them right because it's like you don't know how to network you don't know how to connect um you know you don't know how to just be in social situations and I think you know that's one of the things that when I was single I think that's one of the things that I did sort of naturally well you know I was just like funny silly uh kind of Carefree um you know pretty direct pretty forward but also I wasn't ashamed or afraid to just go and talk to whoever you know like that was really I would just go talk to anybody and I think because of my background being so diverse I could talk to anybody you know I could talk to the construction worker the laborer I could talk to the CEO the executive the artist didn't didn't really matter and I didn't realize how big of an attribute that was for attracting women until very later until like later on in life I was like oh my ability to not only talk to anybody but my ability to have a strong Social Circle of good men in my life was actually one of the contributing factors to my success with women because they weren't just looking at me they were looking at the men I was surrounded with and I think if you're surrounded go ahead go ahead you know saying think about it evolutionarily if you're a woman and this is 50,000 years ago you're pene errow woman and cavewoman uh who are you more likely to have children with that's going to cause you and your child to have a higher likelihood of survival it's the man who has more alignments it's not just the biggest strongest man although that obviously women find that attractive as well but it's the man who has the most alignments that's why humor I believe is U funny or humor is very attractive to women because men who are funny are going to have better social alignments which has a higher probability for you and your Offspring to survive and also I think it's a it's a a corlar to uh intelligence um and so so these different things like I I hear women say all the time I like men who are super smart I think women like men who are very competent I think that that's uh kind of where that comes from but yeah I mean it's it's been one of these things where you go back with your network um and it's been one of the the the craziest when you explain to guys a lot of times I'll give you probably the biggest piece of advice that I was giving probably before anyone else this is probably 2008 and I recommended men have tons of female friends it's very controversial especially in the spaces that I run a lot of the the the manosphere or like red pill places will have me on their show and they don't like this advice they don't like the idea of men and women should be friends when you have a ton of female friends female friends get you used to being around attractive women so if you have a bunch of female friends that are your type but let's say they're married or they're they um you know they're they're just not take you're just not interested in them you're just put them in the friend zone when you do that you get used to being around your type you get invited to everything you get it like there's no event you don't get invited to um whether it's a self-help conference whether it's a a club whether it's a huge private mansion party wherever there's a great book by Professor Ashley MIRS of Boston University she's a sociologist who went undercover I think Chris had her on her on his show she went she's a model she was a runway model who got a PhD in sociology and she went undercover as basically like a bottle rat for two years and one of the things she said was all the guys who got the best networking opportunities in the Hamptons during the summer were guys who had girls with them that's how they got invited to all these different parties uh and then lastly and this this is the most important one the the women that I end up dating seriously I almost always I'm introduced to them by women and when I ask women the most attractive women I know I was like how did you meet the last five guys that you dated it's a friend introduced me a friend introduced me a friend introduced me uh Instagram a friend introduced me I was like you ever use dating apps no I'm a young attractive woman I don't need dating apps and then it was like well what about the guys just coming up and cold approaching you in the bar I was like no I've never met a guy through doing that I was like so how was the friend who introduced you male or female it's almost always female and so I started reverse engineering this and I said okay let me put this into my program what if you're a guy and you have a ton of girls that you put in the friend zone what happens then and then the the experiences they had were the same ones that I had which is women are just keep coming into my life and just the imagine the the Delta between me going up and talking to a woman who doesn't know me versus a bunch a girl coming into a bar seeing a bunch of girls she knows and then say hey come over here and meet Michael it's nightmare it's not even all that appro all that weirdness that approach anxiety all that stuff just goes out the door when you have beautiful women with you and then then I go and look in evolutionary psychology I start looking in the studies and I believe it was Texas Tech who did a study showing that men are like two points higher on a 10-point scale when they're in photographs with attractive women it's like okay cool this is a a concept called mate Choice copying in humans let me look up more content on this and I found dozens and dozens of studies of the concept of mate Choice copying in humans mate Choice copying was something that was studied in Zoology probably in the 1990s and then they finally started uh putting it to humans and uh what they what they found is that women choose men who other women choose so I started using that as an attraction trigger for guys who generally aren't like facially good-look who aren't generally good-look like what are the ways that I can generate more attraction so showing them that was like a huge cheat code but it was something I was trying to teach like 16 years ago and got I got a lot of flack for it it's I mean it's interesting right I mean it makes a ton of sense because you're like prev vetted by other women that that woman then trusts right and I think to to your point you know my my wife has some you know single single friends and they're always asking her like oh do you know of any of Connor's friends that are single guys that would be good fits right and so there is that kind of like wanting somebody that's sort of prev vetted uh sused out and and uh you know repped for you know somebody repping for you again Conor that makes sense evolutionarily if I'm a woman I have more to risk if I have sex with the wrong person um um Robert triers in the 1970s come up comes up with parental investment hypothesis which is of a two-gender species the gender that has the larger sex cell or more parental investment is going to be the more selective of the two genders but the other part of Parental investment hypothesis is that the other gender is going to compete more for access to the first gender and that's what we see in humans whereas uh men compete with other men for access to to women so that's that's that's generally how that works but that if you're a woman and you have all these risks of the man being abusive or the man or all kinds of the man getting up and leaving Having a woman preet that is the best thing that you can do because when you look at a man you can't see all the attributes that are going to help you and help your child when I look at a woman I can see the attributes that I maybe find attractive but a lot of times you know dudes meet women and they're they tend out to be crazy also but the the main thing is as a woman you look at a man you there's so many questions that you have there's so much what we would call incomplete information I don't know if a stalker I don't know if he's abusive I don't know if he's terrible in bed I don't know all these things and when you see a guy and you don't know these things about him but you see so many women comfortable being around him a lot of those questions are answered or at least in your mind they're answered there's a separate study I saw that was really crazy that showed men they were taking in photographs uh with a beautiful women I forget I may have been the Royal Society that did this but don't quote me on that I I forget who did it specifically but basically women saw the men who were in photographs of attractive women and attributed more intellig to them more kindness to them these this is crazy it's like things there's no way you could tell this from a photograph but women were rating them higher on these scales simply because they were in pictures with attractive women and it the the thing was crazy and whenever I bring this stuff up it's really funny because you'll see it in the comments people start attacking me personally for bringing up like evolutionary psychology stats but it's just I'm just going where the data takes me and a lot of times people don't like the answer but man it's one of the craziest things that I've ever seen is like um and you you've you've seen like if you I don't know if you've had Dr bus on your show or William Costello or somethingone like that evolutionary psychology goes through such a robust standard of of testing and then whenever I find Concepts from there I find them to be for lack of a better term truer than anything else I've seen in Psychology uh and so that's why I really love talking about this stuff so much and why I found it to probably be the single most helpful thing that i' I've used with my clients well let's let's touch on that because I think you're hitting something evolutionary psychology seems to be quite a Charged subject definitely and I I want to get your op your take on this I've definitely seen it misquoted Mis sort of represented sometimes you know and and the the data and the research does sometimes get like skewed for you know an opinion but why do you think that it's so charged and and then maybe why do you think it's important if you come to the so this is um this explanation I actually asked Dr bus this and his explanation I thought was the best I've heard William Costello say the same thing uh for those of you don't know William Costello is the PHD candidate under Dr bus at at the bus Labs at University of Texas at Austin he's he's a tremendous content creator highly recommend you guys check him out um so if you if you listen to a lot of things what they say General uh what they call social sciences their belief is a bit more egalitarian a bit more behaviorist so if you consider a behaviorist belie of Psy belief of psychology uh to to be very reductive here I Give a Boy a Barbie doll and I give a girl a Tonka trunk if I give the girl the the Tonka truck she's going to become more masculine if I give the boy the Barbie doll he's going to become more feminine we know we after 100 Years of study this isn't true but this was a belief that behaviorist have is that the only reason men are masculine was because of stimulus that has been put into their life and the only reason women are feminines because of stimulus and this is just not true this basically take genetics completely out of the equation um if you go back and read early Darwin uh you know Darwin's original works you'll see that Darwin uh he postulates about this idea that eventually all of Psychology was going to be subject to natural selection all of human desires and then once behaviorism sort of takes over that idea disappears actually Sigman Freud said something similar he's like all of psychology is a sexual psychology something to that effect and it didn't it took all the way until the 1970s before people started to come to this realization it's like oh wait a second all these proclivities that we have as Homo sapiens they came somewhere to Aiden our survival in the last 200,000 years and so there's a reason for each one of these things men wanting women with a certain hip to waist ratio and women wanting men who are taller than them these come these are proclivities that come through um evolutionary psych or come through our natural selection and so when you when you have these ideas then all of a sudden any idea of feminism any idea of behaviorism any idea of progressivism any idea of egalitarianism these things kind of get thrown out the window because there are innate sex differences between men and women and the and and that's a very offensive to a lot of people the idea that are innate sex differences like for instance uh the this is one that for some reason I don't know why people argue this but the median man mean the 50th percentile man wants the same number of the same amount of sexual variety as the top 1% of women or top two% of women some crazy number like that and women will hear that and they'll be like well no I like a lot of sexual variety too in fact you you hit on it before when you're talking about Bonnie Blue or lily Phillips these women who have slept with hundreds or thousands of men in a day and they're like we're trying to prove a point and the answer is like the question is why like why is this important for women to want to to contravene that idea women men just want more sexual variety than women do that's just something we've seen in the in the data it doesn't mean men are better it doesn't mean women are worse it just mean that's just where the data takes us and a lot of people don't like that idea men have about 100% more upper body strength than women do in fact it's probably the number one dimorphic difference between men and women and so women want to combat that was like I need uh you know women want to be stronger too and like it's fine that that you want to do but accepting the fact that there are differences between men and women is just something that that seems to be difficult for a lot of the social scientists and a lot of academics to deal with and so they say things like evolutionary psychology there's a massive video that came out uh that went after David bus went after Jeffrey Miller and went after Chris Williamson uh called uh I I debunked evolutionary psychology by mooncat and uh William Costello and um and uh M I'm sorry William castella and Alex from dayy they did a uh a rebuttal video which I thought was magnificent uh to this idea because a lot of the things that she was hearing or she was saying was this isn't true because of patriarchy and basically this is the only reason men find these westernized standards of beauty these skinny models to be attractive is because of patriarchy and the only reason why women look like that is because of patriarchy and it was just one example after another where the they had already come up with the answer before they did the experiment uh and the the reality of situation is men throughout history have found the same type of women to be attractive I know there's certain examples of of of where men throughout history found more robust women to be attractive but there's a certain hip to waist ratio that they tend to find attractive there's certain signs of Youth that they find attractive and they've done these studies that David bus did one in 1989 with 37 different cultures and found men to find the same things attractive amongst all these different cultures and that was that's hard for a lot of women to or not not women I won't mean specifically women but it's hard for a lot of social scientists and behaviorists to find true you you're telling me that our westernized standards of beauty are actually genetic that they're actually come from like these are innate sex differences between men and women when you say that then all of a sudden now body positivity out the door because it it goes against evolutionary uh ideas and then and now people get even more and more upset and then you get even deeper Connor like uh Dr bus has a a textbook uh the new science of mind the new edition just came out last year and in one in near the end of the textbook and I don't believe this is in his novel like the book that he wrote for public consumption this is just in the textbook many men who bully in high school have more sexual partners and men who get bullied have fewer that's a really dangerous statistic if you you if you put it into the wrong hands uh women who who get bullied in high school have more sexual partners and men who have been the victims of violent crimes actually have fewer and women find them to be less attractive these are stats like these are ugly stats if put in the wrong hands these are statistics that are that are really bad but they're still true and if something is true if a data point is true it cannot be misogynistic if a data point is true it cannot be bigoted if a data point is true it cannot be racist and so like that's one of the things that I found when when they say when they come to these conclusions uh look one of the big ones Dr bus said jealousy may be an evolutionary adaptation for men that's really offensive to a lot of people when you say that so that that's kind of where the controversy comes from yeah I think there's so there's many threads that we can pull on in there you know I think one that we can Circle back around on is you know what what are some of the core pillars and sort of tenants that evolutionary psychology is saying that women are looking for in men we'll we'll put a you sort of like a pin in that for one moment I think one of the challenge is that there's there's sort of a notion of like how do I want to disseminate this I've noticed through a interacting with a lot of women over the years that there is what women say they want and then there's what women actually go for and I think that is some of the challenge with some of this research is that you know if you put some of those ugly stats aside because some of those are hard right it's like oh man and it and it makes sense I mean I've worked with enough men who have experienced sexual abuse or some type of trauma or been you know a victim of violence growing up and it does shape you in a way where you are more risk avoidant um you you are more preoriented right just in your nervous system and your body and your language you you walk through the world with a different orientation that is not conducive for mate attraction right yeah but I I I think that one of the challenges to come back to this and I've I've seen this I was just talking to one of my wife's friends the other day where she's a a pretty big feminist and we were having this conversation because she seems to attract and date men that are antithetical to her feminist beliefs she attracts very wealthy very status oriented very dominant in men and you know we were having this conversation about feminism and I won't get into that part but I was like tell me why it is that you say you want this very specific type of man but then who you date all the time is somebody who is counter to that you know and I was like you date you know you you basically are the walking poster child of like hypergamy uh and yet what you're saying is I'm a staunch feminist and I don't care about those things at all and that's the patriarchy and those men are misogynistic and yet those are the men that you're dating and sleeping with and and want to be with and so I was like how do you reconcile those two things and I think one of the biggest challenges with evolutionary psychology is that it sort of lays out at the very least a thesis or a postulate about why that behavior exists Connor I would I would postulate that the reason she became a feminist was because she was so subject to hypergamy some women are more subject to it than others and that may be may like she did not like what that said about herself which caused her uh to become more I'm just you know I'm just guessing here I don't know her personally but um that's that's generally what happens but yeah man it's it's you go where the data takes you and a lot of times it takes you to very uncomfortable places and the the analogy I like to use as an oncologist okay if I'm an oncologist and I study let's just say pancreatic cancer if I go to someone and say Hey sir I'm sorry to let you know you have stage three pancreatic cancer this is the treatment we're going to go forward I don't start applauding I don't start saying congratulations on your patri pacreatic cancer I just I'm simply display I'm telling you the football field I'm displaying the game for you I'm displaying the rules of the game for you when an evolutionary psychologist does this so for instance Dr bus when he goes into like stalking like there's a there's actually data that shows that stalking is effective for a small group of men and it may have been an evolutionary adaptation that does that's not a a prescription for stalking stalking is terrible it's a terrible terrible thing but when once we understand our genetic proclivities then we can transcend them but we can't transcend them if we deny them and so that's why I love the idea I would rather just know the truth I would rather understand to a certain extent we're hairless murder rapes and that we can transcend a lot of these feelings that we have rather than pretending that we're not one of those things it's really funny if you if you read David bus's in his new science of mind his textbook it's a picture of a gorilla it's an evolutionary psychology textbook but the the the front cover is a picture of a Silverback Gorilla and so you understand when you come from this place also when what do you see on The Joe Rogan Experience it's a picture of a monkey like that's why a lot of these beliefs come from it's like it's not that we're not actually hairless murder rapes but when you when you when you look at things through that lens a lot more of our proc proclivities make sense and what I would like to understand is we came from our evolutionary past let's accept some of these things that we that we hold true and then let's move forward one of the things you said before is that women will say that they like one thing and then actually be attracted to something different the first rule I tell my guy my guys who join my course is we only pay attention to things people do and not what they say often this is probably the best piece of advice i' give to women whenever it comes to relationships I say take your entire relationship all the things that he did he didn't show up for this he he he did show up for this he liked this girl's photo Etc and take all the words out and then go back and look at the entire interaction with no words no words that you said and no words he said only actions and then you tell me what do you think the conclusion was and generally that's the conclusion that comes much closer to reality than the one with the words human beings use words in order to communicate ideas but they use words to communicate ideas they want to communicate and so because of that often things get very confused and muddled when you look at your interactions with people based on their actions and not their words all of a sudden the truth just magically comes out so that's why a lot of times yeah you're right you you'll hear women say I'm I'm a sapio I have a friend of mine she says she's a saposexual she only likes highly intelligent man and her last two boyfriends were a porn star and a male stripper and I'm like and I called her out on it in the show I was like Savannah you said that you're seposexual I know your last two boyfriends and they're one of one's a male porn star it's like they're not very smart either I know them and she's like yeah you got me it's more what she wanted to believe about herself rather than what she actually what was actually true and so that's where the issue comes and men are just as bad at this men are uh men are just as bad as this level of delusionality yeah yeah well I feel like we could probably go down the hypergamy hypergamy and uh evolutionary psychology pathway for a long time I want to shift a little bit because I want to get into some tactical pieces that are going to support men just in their life but also in the relationship where I actually want to begin is what you were talking about earlier which is a man's relationship to risk and the importance that risk plays in his trajectory towards some type of success fulfillment purpose you know a healthy relationship so talk to me a little bit about risk and how important it is for men so again let's go back to our evolutionary past throughout history we know from looking at why chromosones we can see that about 40% of men throughout history and about 80% of women have reproduced meaning there's a 60% of men uh there's also another insane stat before the year 1850 about half the Earth's population died before the age of five I was reading somewhere in the 17th century in Germany the the likelihood of there's a 90% chance you didn't make it to the age of 15 like the infant mortality rates were insanely high and then the men there was a group of surplus men that were around and you see this in certain cultures where there's this massive group of men that di virgins or just weren't weren't part of the uh you know weren't part did not get to breed didn't get to replicate so if we know that about 40% of men and 80% of women have reproduced that means there's a 60% of men who are sort of Left Behind and in order for them to Garner enough status or Garner enough sexual uh selection to have enough High a high enough sexual market value to actually get to mate they had to take risks when you look at the consequences or the uh symptoms of of testosterone you start to see it's more risk-taking it's more assertiveness it's more aggressiveness it's more dominance it's more ambition and so as men have higher testosterone it causes them to take more chances those chances caused them to um have a higher probability of having uh you know having sex with any women whatsoever so it's going up and talking to a stranger taking a business risk guys gambling it all on black Etc you start seeing a higher ability a higher level of risk tolerance having a correlation to more success in business and having a correlation to more success with women but the way I like to say it is there's certain risks that we had 200,000 years ago that we don't have anymore for instance approach anxiety in men which is very very difficult uh for men to get over that approach anxiety comes from the fact that your ancestors would approach a woman say the wrong thing and be ostracized from the tribe or just like maybe I live in a tribe with 150 people there's maybe seven or eight women that I possibly could breed with in my whole life and I've embarrassed myself in front front of them or I go approach the wrong woman and she's a she's one of the brides of the the chieftain and then all a sudden I'm killed unceremoniously because I've approached the wrong woman that's where our approach anxiety comes from throughout our evolutionary history well okay let's go to 2025 what happens if I go approach a strange woman not much it's not nearly as bad like I'm not I'm not gonna die it could be bad but I'm not gonna die and so now I have this inappropriate or this um misaligned fear of approaching of of approaching a woman and so when you look at those things it's like those fears that you have now I'm taking a risk that isn't even really a risk it's not really that big of a risk and then when you go even further and you see some of the scandals that celebrities that go through you know go through like for instance we have a man who had sex with a porn saur and we elected him president of the United States we had we had a woman who or we had a man who won a de cathete changed transitioned to become a woman ran over someone and killed them and then we named her Caitlyn Jenner woman of the year four months later when you realize that Jordan Belfor one of the famous most famous sales trainers in the world all the the drugs he did all the prostitutes all that kind of stuff they made a movie about him where he punches his wife in the stomach and then kidnaps his own kid and he's one of the most famous sales trainers in the world his books are best sellers and OJ Simpson it's really funny before he died I had a conversation with him I was at a party and I bumped into him and I asked him some questions and he started telling me he was offered so much money to do a fantasy football podcast like it it's one of these things where it's like the risk that you were taken and the hit to your reputation doesn't seem when you look at all these celebrities doing these meme coins at the HW Tua girl or Jake and Logan Paul and they just recover from it fully there's less risk to your reputation and less risk if you go up and talk to a stranger than there was before yet we still have the fear of doing these things uh people's fear of public speaking they have this horrible fear of public speaking but no one's going to kill you like if you go public speak even though it's this mortifying people would rather jump out of an airplane than go speak in front of a large group of people um and so you see these things there's like evolutionary mismatches and what you said before your ability to take risk as a man is directly correlated to how much success you can have and how how many women that you could end up dating or your options with women so what I like to say is a high level of risk taking so uh a high level of risk tolerance in combination with subject matter expertise that's where success you you tend to see come from just blindly taking risk is stupid but taking risks um when when you have studied the arena to take risks is probably the the best uh what I'm talking about the the best combination for success that's what I've seen and then my clients who do the best are the ones who are who have the highest risk tolerance that's what I've seen be most likely you you just did a video recently where you're talking about men who don't take risk how it it becomes unattractive well there's again tons of studies that show that men who have those attributes are more attractive to women yeah and I think one of the one of the layers that I'll add into this because you're you're adding in The evolutionary layer which I think is important I'll just add in the sort of interpersonal attachment based layer which is that often times like a lot of the that I end up working with are guys that have some type of childhood uh you know attachment based interruptions trauma they experienced abuse they're bullied that type of stuff and it's interfered with their ability to take smart risks or to even know what a smart risk is because their neurology and their nervous system is so conditioned to move them away from any type of risk that might damage them again or put them back in that situation and even if it's not remotely the same situation their body has just been predisposed and conditioned to avoid that risk and I think part of like one of the things that we do in our work is like helping men reorient their nervous system so that they have a greater capacity to take risks in their life whether it's yeah sending the email asking for the promotion you know asking the girl you know the woman out like and even basic things having a hard conversation with your wife or your girlfriend like those are the things that collapse a man and really start to push him into this corner of feeling like he's caged in his life psychologically emotionally sexually all all those pieces so how how would you say that a man can begin to combat that like if a guy is wanting to work on his capacity and skill of risk-taking where does he begin my my good buddy of Ryan terban says this he goes after a hundred rejections they're just data points after you've been again you go up and talk to a woman and she rejects you it feels personal painful uh but but how can it be personal she doesn't know you and what happens is initially you have this horrible feel this massive cortisol stress emotion that H oh my God this woman rejected me once you do it over and over again you become immersed in the idea of this rejection doesn't affect me personally and it is not a commentary on who I am as a human being when you get to the point where that rejection becomes less and less personal you care less about the rejection and what's funny is when you approach women they can see you care less and you become more attractive ironically uh because you care less it's the same thing in sales um I have a lot of you know I have a sales team personally and I talk to a lot of guys in sales and there's this feeling that you have to get over where this rejection is not personal it's not personal it's not permanent um and it's not painful you get used to these things over time so what I would recommend guys do is you do need to form a certain level of callousness to rejection and so when you do so you become more attuned to being able to take risks which makes you more successful tends to make you more successful and makes you more attractive and so having these reference experiences and taking these um these risks where you like I've rewired in my mind where I go take a risk and I get rejected and I've rewired that in my mind to where that's awesome that's another reference experience I have to be able to deal with the rejection you do this you know in all areas of your life when it comes to working out when it comes to your finances and when it comes to your dating and then all of a sudden like you're able to take these risks and you understand it's not that bad it it becomes your ability to take risk increases smart risk increases and what'll happen is ironically you just become more attractive to the opposite sex and you be again when I see uh when I have sales guys who go off the script sometimes and they take some risks to get the sale I'm like oh this is awesome like this guy's willing to take risks and this is a terrific thing but you do it too much you get to the point where you're hard-headed or the worst part is when you take risk and you aren't willing to take constructive feedback that's when you get yourself into a lot of trouble so what I recommend guys is just say like hey man what are these risks that I'm taking that uh where I feel this stress and it's it's not rational right approach going up and approaching a woman in a bar it's it's an an irrational it really is an irrational risk right oh I'm sorry I didn't know you were married good to meet you guys you know whatever you walk off you you're not going to die you're G to be fine and so getting used to understanding these risks especially especially when it comes to here's one of the most irrational risk people who I meet all the time who want to start their own podcast or want to create a brand on soci social media and they're so afraid of what other people think of them and I just go over again I was like look at all these politicians who go through these scandals all these celebrities and they just come out the other side unscathed you no one you're not a celebrity no one cares about you you're sitting there trying to oh my God I'm gonna do a podcast what if I say something wrong bro no one's gonna watch you and I both know this being on YouTube No One's Gonna watch the first 50 episodes you do you'll be lucky to get a 100 views you the idea that you're GNA say something stupid and anyone's going to Care go back and listen to Joe Rogan's first podcast he's in a closet right he's he doesn't sound like Joe Rogan your first episodes are going to be terrible take this risk but what happens is you go back and you look at this reference experience that you have and it's unbelievable and then the other thing is in order to skip several levels in success and this has comes to the the relationships dating uh it comes to money is is to have mentors who have already made a lot of these mistakes and try to use the feedback that you get from those mentors you get to skip several levels so one of the things I say is take rejection is not being personal take that as data points and then also find people who already have success and follow what they're doing and then once you do that now you can take risks with more intelligence and more confidence uh once you see okay I'm doing a coaching program these are five guys who have coaching programs that are bigger than me here's the six mistakes that each one of them made they told me the top six mistakes they made Let's avoid those mistakes and all a sudden I get to skip several levels so that's that's that's what I would recommend for guys to do yeah I like the take the rejection or even failure is not personal you know as a data point that you can then learn from because I I think that how a lot of men who maybe have a kind of tumultuous relationship with risk approach taking a risk is that in the back of their mind they're almost like looking for the evidence when the rejection happens to reinforce the internal story of uh see I'm not good enough or I'm a POS or you know like whatever it is it's running through them so I do think that that part is really really helpful uh when it comes to taking risk I think the other thing that has that's kind of uh impressed a lot of men's ability to take risks is a couple fold and I'm curious to get your Insight on this one is I think our male relationships have really suffered and collapsed yes and so we we we don't have other men pushing us to be like do that thing jump off the 10- foot cliff into the water like you'll be okay or you know I think go and talk to that woman or send the email or ask the promotion and I think a lot of our relationships with our male counterparts with the the Clos men in our lives have become kind of soft in to to a degree where other men aren't challenging us to expand who we actually are as a man and then I think the other thing that is infringing on this is social media's like just the onslaught of strangers that are willing to [ __ ] terrorize you like the amount of [ __ ] that I have had to face on YouTube and Instagram and the emails that I get sometimes uh because I've here's the thing I've tried for the last 10 years to be very middle of the road yes and the hardest part yeah I don't talk about politics I don't talk about religion I don't get into any of that [ __ ] um and it's so interesting that you know in the last couple years I've noticed this rise in people who send me really hateful mean messages around like how could you follow this person it's what the [ __ ] does it matter that I follow them you know like I I really try and immerse myself with diverse opinions but it seems like we have entered into this time where if I disagree with you I will sever the relationship with you and I think that is so dangerous and I see a lot of men who are paralyzed and they're afraid that if they take a risk and they make the wrong move that they're just going to get annihilated for it whether it's online you know through Twitter Instagram you know or whatever it is or they're going to get attacked um you know online or at work or whatever and so comment on those two pieces the male relationships and then the onslaught that you inevitably probably have to face you and I have taken on the risk of not being put into an echo chamber that's what you're experiencing right I would say Chris Williamson's in the same category I would say uh Adam snik in the meaning political moderates who who sit there and talk about dating and relationships and these Dynamics because we don't fall so far to the red pill tradcon side of things we get criticism from them and we don't also don't fall all the way to the Justin baldon uh Chris GQ Perry will Hitchens like female pandering side of things so we get criticism from that side as well because I go where the data takes me for this is one thing I've noticed Connor is when I make an argument with someone and they're using the feelings that they have and my argument is based on stats that I've seen I tend to get way more Angry responses when I try to base what I'm saying in some level of science or experience or like in your situation you've dealt with hundreds or thousands of clients and you use data that you know to be true you don't need it to be true you don't even want it to be true but you know it to be true and you express it they can't argue back and so the only recourse they have is personal attacks or hatred I get a ton of it and it's really funny because people who are like even for further to the left than me see me as like a hardcore red pillar which is absurd and people who are hardcore red pill people see me as like some beta simp whatever because I have a ton of female friends right um I'm like again I'm friends with Rolo tamasi and Destiny you couldn't get us any further apart from those those two people I'm friends with both of them and it's just it's one of these things where people are like very angry with me uh when it comes to these ideas I'm friends with Jasmine Jafar and I'm friends with Andrew Tate like like but it's because I try to listen to people who have beliefs and viewpoints that I disagree with and I can have Discord with them without making these things personal and when I do that then then it's totally fine I love talking to people who disagree with me but but here's the reason why I have enough self-confidence and have taken enough risk like we talked about previously where if someone says something that I disagree with for instance I was dating someone um who was significantly younger than me before it wasn't my choice we just met each other found each other very attractive and she was significantly younger than me and I was talking to Jasmine Jafar about this and she pointed out it's like the likelihood of you making it as a marriage with this age disparity you have is like 14% it's like very low I didn't look at her and cuss her out what I said is okay let me look into this data and sure enough it is true like when you have massive age differences in a marriage it's harder to make things work um and so so I took the data I took the feedback and I and I inculcated it into my life I had to I had to accept that reality and I actually even talked to my partner about it uh at the time and so your willingness to do that for instance I'm I'm slightly right of Center if you 20 years ago I would be left of center it's just the world has become a little bit more left leaning but I'm slightly right of Center so one of my favorite podcasts of these two guys who are socialists who are both friends of mine they basically talk about socialist ideas all the time and I listen to him and I love listening to him because I want to say am I going way off overboard in my beliefs um when we did a political uh the night of the election we did uh an election episode of my show access Vegas live stream I do and we went out and I said I need people who are liberals and I need conservatives and because I'm slightly right of Center all the people that it connected me to were conservatives and when I talked to them I said hey do you know anyone who's who's going to vote for KLA Harris and they're like I don't know a single person I can't believe anyone's going to vote for KLA Harris I finally found two friends of mine not through the internet who are Harris supporters and they're like I don't know a single person who's going to vote for Donald Trump what's happened is these these social media platforms are putting us in these Echo Chambers and and when you're in the Echo chamber and you say a certain thing you're going to notice all your positive your comments are positive when you do like again like what I say you myself Chris I'd say Ma and Murphy is kind of in the same space where we we're just going where the data takes us what happens is we get attacked from both sides and it's it's insane another one I would say I think Joe Rogan's pretty moderate and it's really funny if you guys have ever seen the video of Joe Rogan explaining climate science to Candace Owens you understand that he's not anywhere near as far to the right as you think he is but people on the left think he's a far-right extremist and people on the far right think that he's a liberal like it's really crazy when you see this when you just try to have a tempered view of the world I don't need anything to be right or wrong I just go where the data takes where where the data takes me and I'm not offended by the truth ever no matter how bad the truth makes me look or the truth makes our species look I'm never offended by the truth and I'm open to it so what's what's happened what I I'm I'm hypothesizing what's happened with you and to a greater extent like say Chris Williamson is because you guys are going where the data takes you and you have a certain type of audience I think Chris said his 80 85% of his audience was male or something like that when you go to a place where the data takes you and they don't like the responses they don't like the outcome like for instance men in the in the on the red pill side they love this stat women who have more sexual partners before they're married have a higher likelihood of marital dissatisfaction right they love that stat but then when you take the same stat and you're like well men who have more sexual partners before they're married also have a higher level of marital dissatisfaction they don't like that stat so much right and I'm like you have to take both stats you can't just say one thing without the other and when you do so it was funny I just said something that was empirically true it's just true and because I said it now said I'm getting a attack from both sides I would say Professor Scott Galloway is in this uh Arena I would say Richard Reeves is in this Arena they're just going where the data takes them Galloway and Reeves are left of center I would say I'm a right of Center I Dr bus I have no idea what his political beliefs are um but when you go where the data takes you then you find these you find common ground with these people I agree with Professor Galloway with more than than I disagree even though we're on the different sides of the political AIS um and so when you see that then all a sudden you get attacked from both sides I would love to see a lot of political moderates come together and like share some of these ideas and what you would see is some of the most hateful comments of all time you would see because it's it's very difficult to deal with someone who has a based Viewpoint that's especially in your situation that's based in some level of science psychology and then and you have try to have an argument with them they get very very angry when when you try to do those things but the the ones about body count before marriage I they're pretty they're pretty conclusive but here's another one that makes women mad whenever I say it but it's still true 80% of 70 to 80% of divorces are initiated by women we see this from the data and also my good friend James ston um he's a divorce attorney he's talked about it as well when you look at homosexual divorces the homosexual divorce rate between two gay men it's about 28% for the for heterosexual couples it's about 56% for lesbian couples it's 78% 80% of divorces are initiated by women and in lesbian couples when they don't have men to blame they're still getting divorced at 78% that would tell you that while men may be part of the problem a lot of the problem may be women just have more of a proclivity to leave a relationship than men do that data is very hard for a lot of people to swallow they do do not like that whatsoever it's much easier to just blame men for women divorcing men that's just the men just didn't step up and that's the only possible answer and any other answer than that is ridiculous other than when you go back to the original thing I talk about parental investment hypothesis women are just pickier than men it's good they're the ones who justatee children they're the ones who have are generally the primary caregivers it's good that they're picky but their pickiness caused them to want to lead relationships sooner than men do in general about four to one uh women want to more than men or three to one somewhere in that area well when I bring that stats up women are like no it's because men are lazy they're not Alpha anymore and I'm like that could be true but again in lesbian relationships if if you have a 78% divorce rate that would indicate that maybe it's not men who are the entire problem here and people really don't like that discussion they hate that discussion yeah I think it's uh I've talked about that on the show before and talked about why that might be from number of different angles but but I think one of the things around this risk-taking piece that we've been talking about specifically for men that are tuning into this is that there is a re there's a risk for taking more risk right and you know what that is whether there's rejection or failure but there's also a reward in it in the sense that it is going to help you develop a sense of resiliency psychologically emotionally relationally um you know I think the how you are perceived and how you perceive yourself will inevitably shift and I I think for a lot of men the reason why they lack a sense of self-worth or a sense of self-confidence uh is because there are certain things that they know they should be doing certain risks they know they should be taking that they don't take them and then that erods their sense of self-confidence right and then you take that and extrapolate it you know not just one time but hundreds of times over the course of a year uh or a couple months and like that's going to tank how you perceive yourself yeah and so there is this there is this sort of correlation between your willingness to go and do the hard thing that you do not want to do and developing a more robust sense of self and that gets rewarded by Society relationally it gets rewarded people you know I think I think we maybe underestimate how how much what you and I are talking about plays into people's sense of trust in us like I know I can trust men in my life or or my wife or you know friends or whatever it is based on their willingness to take a smart risk and do the hard thing that they know they should be doing and it makes it harder to trust somebody if they are constantly collapsing in on those things and it it not only erodes their relationship with themselves but it then erodes their relationship with you and I think for a lot of men that are having marital issues specifically right or just relational issues with women part of it comes down to that is that a woman is sort of looking at what is your willingness to take this risk to do this hard thing that you know you should do and do you hold yourself to it or not and if she sees you over and over and over and over and over again collapsing in on that it's going to erode her sense of trust and safety with you because she will feel like oh man do I have to do this for you are you g to step up to the plate and take this risk um you know or or is it that you are just like collapsing under the weight of your own fears and I think for a lot of women that is a real sort of like relational existential threat that a man is going to collapse under the weight of his own fears so any thoughts on that yeah so it's funny because that trust that you're talking about was something that we had to deal with in the US military when I'm flying I was a a navigator and a KC 135 Strat tanker and I have to be able to trust that the co- pilot isn't going to [ __ ] himself and put the gear down in fact one of my jobs as the Navigator is to make we have a rule in the in the Air Force the co-pilot is always trying to kill you even when he's not trying to kill you he's trying to kill you and so you're always like that co-pilot you need to put the gear down to set the flaps at 30 we're always reminding this like 22 year- Old co-pilot hey this is or you know 26 somewhere around there hey this is what you need to be doing because he's going to kill you but it's a certain level of trust that you need in these other members of the air crew to be willing to do their job right the boom operator has to go to the back and and refuel the other airplanes um that level of trust that you have in people here's the way I look at it there's this ability so we we talk about different skill sets um in my because I believe male utility is a really great way for men to increase their self-esteem is by accomplishing goals look up behavioral activation therapy kind of a contrary not contrary but different a different variety so from saying uh dialectical behavioral therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy uh behavioral activation therapy the idea of men accomplishing goals in order to feel better about themselves is really important it's it it seems to affect men more than women I I tend to find that when a woman is depressed she can talk about her feelings and she can feel better about it by expressing herself I find that guys can go to the weit room hang out with their buddies have a great time hanging out with their friends going out playing football and they feel better because they've done something because they've accomplished something and so I think there's a pretty massive difference when it comes to that what was the original question you were asking me about the um the risk TR I was asking you yeah trusting yeah the the concept of trusting someone so so that's essentially what happens you need to be able to trust people to the the skill that I was meant to say was I don't want to do something and I still do it anyway right I wake up in the morning and I don't want to go to dude I'm doing 75 hard I don't want to do that outdoor workout I don't want to drink a gallon of water I don't want to read 10 pages from the book I want to play video games I want to stay up with my friends and talk I want to watch TV I don't want to read 10 pages from a book I don't want to take a picture of myself without a shirt on all the things that I don't I certainly don't want to stick to this diet all the things that happen in 75 hard doing things when you don't want to do them is a skill and when I see people who have that skill those are the people I trust the most and that's again one thing we learned in the military I do not want to get up at Zero Dark 30 and go to PT I don't want to do it but I do it because I because I do it when I don't want to do it you start to develop this callousness and this skill David Goggins and Joo willick are really terrific at describing this attribute doing the thing when you don't want to do the thing is a skill and of itself it's one of the number one things I look for people who I hire is are you willing to do the thing when you don't want to do it and and when you find that that's somebody that you find you're you're able to trust along with the ability to take risk along with the ability to take risk is also really really important by the way you know my my company we have like 30 40 employees and uh a lot of them I I tell them all the time you guys can always criticize me at the beginning of our of of our a lot of our coaches meetings the first thing I ask is have I done anything to make your lives harder have I screwed up anything and I noticed the guys who were more willing to be critical of me which is what I'm asking for in a respectful way obviously I'm their boss but when they do so those are the guys I want to keep the ones who are willing because what are they doing they're taking a risk they're sitting there criticizing their B I asked you to criticize me but you took the risk and you did it those are the guys I want to keep because what's happened they're doing the thing they don't want to do and they're taking a a calculated risk and when I see that I was like okay this is someone who I can probably work with who's probably gonna have a little bit more success in this field yeah I I have spent a long time doing that within my business as well and I mean I just call it eating The Humble Pie right like you got to get the feedback from the people who know more about you in their specific areas yeah that when you take their feedback it can help you optimize I want to end off on uh we're g to take a hard right turn uh or hard left turn doesn't really matter which way it is um talking about I I put a post out on Instagram about uh I don't know which woman it was to be honest I think it was Lily Phillips whichever one slipped with a thousand men and so here here's Lily did a hundred guys in one day and Bonnie said she did a thousand in uh in 12 hours now I don't that I do the math you do the math there it's 43 seconds per guy uh so that was really and and the funny thing after that happened I met I did a reaction video to Lily and then I met Lily at AVN I was at the AVN Awards here in Vegas and I bumped into her and I had a conversation with her about it um and it's when you meet her she seems she's very pretty and seems very normally adjusted and then you realize what she does for it's just crazy uh but yeah yeah the the thing is we were talking about before who's who's guy number 700 yeah who is that who when we one of the things I do talk about is the desperation of men I hear you talk about this often the desperation of Men what happened in your life for you to be number 859 of a thousand men who had sex with Bonnie Blue that that's ultimately the question I have to whenever when people are when this is I'm getting way off topic here but I believe there's three genders there's High status men there's women and there's low status men because High status men and low status men their experiences of Life are so completely different the idea like when when we when when women complain about men they're generally complain about the high status men the men who have like lots of options with women but really they don't recognize the bottom third of men who have no options in short-term dating and then you don't recognize how bad it is until you see only fans made 6.6 billion dollar in Revenue last year the average guy on dating apps gets six matches for every 1,000 right swipes the average guy the top 10% of men get a hundred matches for they get 100 matches for every 10,000 right SES when you see that and then somehow Bonnie Blue she's pretty she's not that pretty for her to get a thousand men to come and sleep with her like the the idea that I'm going to sit there and I'm waiting in a room just consider this like just put yourself in the shoes I'm waiting there there's a guy there's several guys in the room in front of me I watch them open the door they go in and then they come out later and then eventually I'm going to go in the room that's Madness to me like what has happened in your life for you to get to the point I've met Bonnie I haven't met Bonnie but I've met Lily and I have to tell you they're doing what they want to do you want to talk about psychological damage or trauma they they've dealt with I agree that's probably going on but they've made life choices and they're not actually the people I'm concerned about what I'm concerned about is what happened that caus a thousand men to stand in line to have sex with her and here's the craziest part Conor is I will bet for probably seven eight or 00 of those thousand men Bonnie Blue is the most attractive woman they've ever had sex with yeah and that goes back to lack of risk-taking not doing the hard thing when you don't want to do it so I don't have and it's just Madness to me that you would do something like this I don't know if you saw the documentary after Lily Phillips had sex with 100 guys they interview one of the the the guys and he's outside his hands are shaking after he had sex with her he just he couldn't believe he did it and this whole thing is just so Madness such Madness but I I do I don't think that Society in general understands this bottom third of men their level of suffering they go through the three or four times more likely to take their own lives far more likely to be the victims of violent crime or to conduct violent crime or or to be uh the victims of of some Mental Health crisis uh and they're far more likely to lose their job be zeroed there's all these things that this bottom third of men are going through that are very difficult a man who's divorced in his 40s uh depending on his financial situations nine times more more likely to take his life than the general population when you see these statistics it's really crazy but the reason why we don't see that is because what we see are the top group of men that have a Lamborghini the six-pack and a bunch of social media followers when women complain about men who cheat they're talking about those men at the top and they're totally ignoring these the mail man the guy who gave you your Chick-fil-A like these guys do not cheat they're not cheating on you they don't have any ability to cheat they haven't had sex with a woman in three years they have no and so women whenever I explain to them the number of women that go the number of men that go sex list with without a year the number of men that go a year without sex women are just stunned by this because women are like oh I get sex anytime I want uh and it's just one of these these these stats that's really crazy for people to watch but I I don't know what you think about this the commentary that it puts on all men not all men but a majority of men that even a thousand men would consider having sex with Bonnie Blue in the first place is the part that is like where are we now as a society those those people are way that conundrum they're going through is way more interesting to me than what Bonnie Blue is going through yeah yeah I mean my my commentary was on you know the fact she was talking about one of one of them I don't remember which one was talking about how her father approves of what she does and you know I was having a commentary on that but you know that for sure the fact that that many men lines up is rough you know and it does speak to you know I've talked in many different ways about the decline of men in our society and and I I think it's really hard i' I've noticed more and more that I think it's really hard for women to actually understand what it is like for a man to try and get a woman and I've I have a very crude saying which is is like free dick is everywhere and free vagina is very rare and it's very very hard for women to understand how much men go through and Orient towards just trying to get laid or trying to get a relationship and I know so many men that have gone through this so here's why it's because when you say man people have a monolithic structure in their mind they think of all men think of XY chromosone so here's here's the best analogy that I've used ready this is a big remote this is a small remote this big remote is 80% of men these men are not having any success with women they're deemed to be unattractive on dating apps you guys seen the Okay Cupid subties like 80% of men are deemed to be below average attractiveness on dating apps these men are making about $59,000 a year they aren't particularly tall this is the majority of men this is a small group of men this men this group of men right here have multiple options when it comes to women they tend to make more money uh and and they have you know uh bigger followings and they they just you know whatever for whatever reason they're succeeding more when women are complaining about men they're complaining about this group of men when you and I are talking we're gener we're generally talking to this group of men when women hear us talking to this group of men and they think it's this group of men we sound toxic right you understand if I go to a guy who's been zeroed out by his wife divorced she cheated on him I was like hey man you're the prize bro I just want let you know you're the prize you you need to maintain these boundaries and you need to actually have uh a fulfilling dating life where women are competing for your attention if I say that to a guy who's been divorced and cheated on that's not toxic advice he needs to hear that he is at a low place but my I remember because my girlfriend would be in here and she would hear me saying this kind of stuff and in her mind she thinks I'm talking to the male stripper she thinks I'm talking to the VIP host who's been with 500 women and she's like that's toxic as [ __ ] you can't say that no when people can understand there's two groups of men there's this majority of men who are having no success whatsoever and there's this small group of men with the Bugatti who's going around posting on social media and having women slid to his DMS when you understand I know I'm being a little hyperbolic here but the thing is when we're when we're talking about men if you can in your mind say there's two groups of men and say the men when women are complaining about men they're not complaining about the same men that we're trying to help if you can really separate that in your mind all of these about what's a high status men and how much do men cheat and all this kind of stuff all of these things just go out the window they really do because men are really confused when they hear women talking about men are not stepping up and they all want to cheat and they would never take care of me they don't want to get married and I'm like I know a bunch of dudes who would love to do those things but you're not interested in any of those men and because of that when you understand this this whole 8020 there's two groups of men then all of these questions that we have all of this mismatch becomes very simple you cannot think of men as a monolithic structure there's what I call a level of status poverty there's and when you look at it like again kind I'm just going to use just vague uh ideas here from like the the bottom third of men we're talking zero or one sexual partners in the last year somewhere in that area the median is five I think the mean is 15 in the top 5% it's 50 sexual partners and then at the top 1% it's 150 so the scale goes like this you're talking 150 sexual the scale goes like this so when you look at that okay there's this point of inflection right here if you're above that point of inflection you're not having trouble dating it's very easy for you it's not a big deal for you if you're below that number you are not getting the options that you want because they're not it's not spreading across evenly if twoth thirds of men under the age of 30 are single and onethird of women there's something going on here either they're all dating older guys or they're all dating the same guy right that's what the the data will show you and so when you do that you you you have to make the this this understanding when I'm talking about men I'm not talking about all men when I'm talking about men who are doing like the men who are who are crushing it with women they don't come to me for advice they're not who I'm helping the're generally probably in your situation too it's probably less likely they're coming to you as well it's like you know I make $700,000 a year and I'm six4 with blue eyes and I work in finance that guy is not going to a dating coach he doesn't need help in that Arena but if if a woman's been hurt by that guy and she hears our advice she thinks we're toxic because we're giving advice to the six4 blue-eyed guy who hurt us no we're giving it the the advice to I hate to say it sand deep from New Deli who's 5'4 he just came to the country he a second generation Indian person and women just ignore the [ __ ] out of him the guy who's like you know in his 50s he's been divorced and he's a mailman women don't even notice he exists that's who we're giving advice to and if if if people could have a little bit more grace and just understand we're trying to help this bottom third of men who have no options with women then then they would it's a little bit more understanding of what we're saying right they could be a little bit more understanding of the advice we're saying and we get a lot less hate in them in the uh in the comment section yeah it's I think it's very important what you're talking about which is it there's there's a lot of invisible men there's a lot of men who really feel invisible to whatever it is government Society culture women um all of those things and they they do experience a real challenging subset of issues um so listen man this has been great we're gonna we're going to pause here appreciate the conversation today there's fun we got into some we got some good stuff uh it'll be interesting to see the the feedback and response from this although I don't think that we touched on anything like you know really really radical but um yeah you know you know how it is uh where can people find you if they want to learn more about you and your work on Instagram just go to Michael sartin uh and then on uh YouTube it's Michael sartin on on AIT Twitter uh sartine podcast um you guys can find me there um I if you there's there's a lot of things I say here if you're a person who understands like you want to learn more about evolutionary psychology and you're like looking for data to win a debate or an argument you probably should listen to my podcast that's one of the things I I talk about on my show pretty frequently but if you're a man and in your life you just want to be better when it comes to communication networking leadership and dating if you want to be the person like I said before all their friends meet their girlfriends through you have multiple options when it comes to dating uh you can get any job you want you can get into any network you want you can get into any event you want if you're looking for that level of leveling up uh leveling up your network just check out mentoring.com that's the uh the program that I teach and if you guys want to see examp of the success stories you can go to mentoring.com testimonials and we have 200 testimonials up there video testimonials q&as where the guys go through all the things that I I was able to help them with in the course like I said we've had 3,500 guys go through the course uh and it's just been a labor of love it's been the greatest decision I've ever made in my life was to to become a coach like this um and so yeah that's where you guys can find me man awesome brother awesome thank you so much for joining me uh for everybody that's out there tuning in don't forget to man It Forward share the episode with somebody that you know will enjoy it or maybe won't enjoy it and you can have a good conversation about it either way remember disagreement is an important part of life uh so man It Forward share the episode until next week Connor be starting off e