it tends to be a point of confusion around understanding the structure of the soul and the reason why I think it's important to sort it out and to understand it is because like Professor Malik was saying that it's fundamental to how we understand human nature and how we approach the human being so the idea of why we deal with this model and try to understand it and sort out is not to encourage people to get so into the microcosms of understanding the specifics of it but because we need to understand the structure of what we're working with to keep us in line with the paradigm without having a clear understanding what happens is it will they will make us grasp on to what's already well defined which is this notion of the self but that is not spiritual so it's really really important that we make an effort to understand this culture not to like use it so theoretically in practice but for our own self to orient our self and so people have conceptualized it differently within Islamic psychology for instance this one is a very simple one from 2013 amber haka and Puma and Petra Boise wrote a paper and then professor Skinner made this model I don't know how many years ago 1989 so I think right when he was writing that paper and realizing needed some sort of more structure to understand he conceptualized it this way it helped us understand this notion of the roof coming in the inspiration into the hearts which the other model doesn't necessarily highlight and again all of these models are just different people's way of trying to visualize make sense and map out something that is very abstract so no there is no correct visual model because it's not a visual physical thing that exists it's an abstract concept that our minds are trying to grasp and so we're using these as tools and so this is how professor skinner mapped it out the research that i've been working on the idea of what i wanted to try to accomplish is finding a way to get some sort of consensual model that that brings in the input of scholars who really understand these intricacies because again when we discuss like well what is aqua what is blue what's the relationship this isn't an entire somebody could spend their whole life sorting these things out because scholars have written so much about it and so much of that writing to the layperson can be quite confusing because they're talking about things that are built on other sources of knowledge that if you don't understand it can be disorienting and so what has tended to be the case is that because we're trying to understand this from psychology we have psychologists many of whom may have a great deal of knowledge in Islamic theology but their main focus is a psychology and so what my intention was was to bring in the voices and the knowledge of the scholars the scholars who understand this and have spent their lives really understanding these intricacies from many different angles so what I what I set out to do was bring that input in since I my specialty is psychology and so instead of trying to rely on my own understanding I want to bring in people from who understand it from the point of view of Islamic philosophy Islamic theology even aspects of thick people who have read not just a book of mazzaglia not just in here Norma Dean but his trajectory of his life has his writing developed over time and understanding the longer trajectory it helps us understand what was coming from that and so what I what I what my intention was was to create out of that complexity something that what between all these scholars because there's a lot of disagreements or different interpretations what are the main things that people of these scholars at least these 18 that I interviewed tended to agree on what was consensual consensual - how we can really build a strong foundation for understanding and what is really the most important for our work and psychology as it relates to trying to help somebody develop in their soul out of that project I I wound up developing a model I just wanted to walk through and explain and again this is it was my visualization as a map but it's not my this was all taken from what this what these 18 scholars contributed you look at the board because I I want to walk you through sort of the development of it so if we think of first before anything is a lot and allah is has from what we learned has brought us into existence and in as has created this dunya and what we're talking about that the most part is our soul as it relates to our life in the dunya because that's what we're doing in psychotherapy we're not necessarily dealing with the bars off we're not dealing the back it up we're dealing with what's going on here in this world and this dunya so it's a porphyrin just understand it in the context of that so Allah created this dunya and in the dunya he created us so this circle is representative just the circle itself is the human being - what we know is that the Guru is form Allah breathed into us through the roof is essentially the divine essence this spark is this divine this light breath that was breathed into US and like Professor Malik said in the Quran it's only this described in that sense of positivity and pureness and it's even a tribute to the Quran to gibreel so it's like the essence of this how he and so what what what we know you know people like to say whenever this concept of roof comes up people are I think afraid to talk about it because it's so abstract in its soul spiritual and it's so unseen and we and people like to just sort of well we don't know much about it and people say that I think too much because what it does is it's almost like avoiding it like yes we don't know about it we don't know the intricacies of the reality of Allah no but we need to understand that in us is a spiritual or our reality is spiritual and so when we continually say well we don't want know much about it it's avoiding our spiritual reality and so I think because of this it's really really important that we recognize and honor the fact that the roof is part of our makeup it's part of who we are and it's it plays a part so when I'm making these circles of these different elements it's only because they're spoken of as different components not necessarily they're not necessarily separate things except for in this conceptualization to a degree and again this is abstract concepts of the difference between roof and nuts so as part of he breathed into us through but because we're in the dunya we have this pull this downward all towards that that that's putting us in this physical realm and so this is where I think a lot of confusion comes in is and thus it's worded us the word nuts is used as distance describe the entire soul but often because in the Quran as the sister was saying and as Professor Malik validated he is referred to this word as a negative thing something we have to control not necessarily negative something we need to control something that will be judged something that is really tied to our experience in the dunya and so it's important to understand the distinction that sometimes the word nuts is used to just describe the whole person but when in this model and in this case nuts is referring to the aspect of the person that has this animalistic drive that has a downward pull okay and in the realm of the dunya she tongue dislike in professor Malik's model or drawing say time exists with only in within this realm of the dunya and the reason why I decided to make it a triangle is because at least to distinguish it there is absolutely no conceptualization that this is in opposite that this is the opposite of that not at all Allah is above everything Allah is completely separate from Messi he's the one controlling this whole experience and part of his creation Shaitaan exists in this downward pole so in this model upward represents this height this higher trajectory towards what is pure and what is connected to allah subhana wa ta'ala and this downward pull for the dunya represents what we're bound to in this life in this reality and part of that dunya reality is we we forget who we really are and we are in separation an illusion of separation we are always connected because we always have this connection through the roof in this illusion of separation this test that Baba Malik this describe Shaitaan is part of that past testing us to to feed into us through different tricks and ways to orient us towards the separation rather than the towie rather than remembering that witnessing from elasto bit of become whether she had not when we we know inside of us we have a place that knows so Shaitaan is influencing us through than us not through the roof because the room is untouchable it is from Allah and it stays pure okay the nufs can be corrupt and not corrupted and this is why the nafs is what's judged on the day of judgment after because you're judged on how you dealt with that corruption that you allow it to persist or did you fight in this battle ground of your soul now the battleground happens in the middle here so in this model all of the purple is this tension place of the battle ground professor Malik talked about the red is represented of this downward pull towards dunya and separation and the illusion of separation of self and the blue is representative of the purity of Allah subhana Allah the rooh and where we fall in line with that now the pole is the center of our being of this self that is where this activity happens to either be oriented towards the downward pull and be oriented towards the upward pull towards our core zero now when we so it's a dynamic aspect so called the word to problem means to turn cold turns one way or the other so the hull can either turn towards the nufs and be in a state of tough love forgetfulness of allah we're mired in the dunya and mired in this illusion of separation we have forgotten the witnessing of allah before coming into this world and in that we when we win work when we're oriented towards the down low we're in a flow now if the pulp is turning towards the nuts then we're in a flower in this area and I'll talk about these things in a minute and if the pulp is oriented towards the door meaning through the work the battle ground we'll talk more about what that work is it's orienting or turning and this is an active thing that we're where it comes into our work on ourselves Allah does not change the people until they change what is in themselves this is the work that we're doing to orient ourselves or this way so the Kolob can happen towards turning towards the room and in that case then we are more connected to that original witnessing and more in line with our pictura our fitrah remember we talked about before is the part of us that remembers who we really are our true identity and not mired in the self that is only defined by our dunya experience which is this what Western psychology only deals with the self so the self is all about who this person has become and developed in the dunya and and is in this veil of thinking that they their identity is singular and it's oriented only doing it and there's no awareness outside and so we deal with that but we try to orient the person away from that not towards it the Aqil this is where a lot of confusion comes in because I and I this is I really tried to sort this out with these scholars because even among them there's a people say different things and Abbas Ali uses the word awful quite a lot and not often times he interchanges all four of these things and you get lost like wait I thought we were talking about cold suddenly without Morocco why is it because Ocalan oh this is this is how a majority of the scholars that I spoke to conceptualize this is that aquam the word aqua is not used in the quran yeah Aluna yaki loon is it is a function of the cub the cub intellects okay why we talked about the heart having the cognizant heart the heart has consciousness right and the heart is the center of the whole beings remember Hakim archuleta was saying by the mind of the the mind is a part of the whole body the whole spirit there is no separation so when we're intellect in we are so some scholars would say that when Ethel when when you're really using the word Apple that that would be a person using their code to distinguish to see things as they are so if you if you know so yeah hey Luna would be seeing with your heart and when you see with your heart you actually see things in their true reality as they are because you it's a connection a function of this the Pope has this connection to do and they would say some people conceptualize this some do not would say and there's different schools of thought even in this a lot of the columns spoilers will differ on but that if somebody is not is not intellect incorrectly then it would not be awful if they're not using their hearts to intellect in this way that it would not be considered awful it would be some other distorted mental perception and this gets confusing because you know we talk about like mr. Mallen indicated there's this rational function of the brain but it's like a receptor for what is the I that's that's moving the hand in the Eccles experiment right so this people debate about this for a lot of time it's not important that we've sorted out and but for our purposes what is really important is that in Western psychology the whole thing is awful that I would say this is all they deal with awful and nuts so it's really important that we sort sort that out for ourselves is that the aqwal is a function of the pulp and our fund our focus should be the color so the reason why I do it like this is to indicate that this is connected to each other there it's important that we talk about Apple because it is an important part of Islam we don't neglect our author we we are supposed to use the rationality and the aqwal is the shackle that helps move the pulp and turn it and shall ah hopefully towards the rope but often not all right and so when when the PFAs ollie talks about the horse and the rider right and that the author is keeping in check the the Huah the hawa which is going towards this downward pole port toward Shaitaan and towards the animalistic energy of the nuts so I think what's important is just understand Apple as just a function that that motivates the column to go one way or the other and oftentimes our perception of how we do that is through logic rationality reasoning knowledge right because by getting receiving knowledge we then realize all I need to do this better thing I need to try to orient myself towards this because it's better because Allah says it in his book and if we're using our knowledge our rational mind to to turn our heart Shaitaan can influence it Shaitaan can influence the decisions that you make and so therefore it can save on all she's not has no control over your heart Shaitaan can can throw things at you to distract you and that you get caught up in that you then are still responsible for turning your heart in that direction so Shaitaan only when they talked about which it unlike in the chest it's only this chest not not deeper into the heart the Shaitaan does not have access to the whole the based on your if you're pulling the reins too tight then it's affecting there's too much aqua involved in in controlling it whereas if it's too loose then the horse is gonna run wild it's about having this balance like I said it can become quite confusing because there's a lot of details of understanding right but I want to try to if you'll be patient with me to try to give you a sense of how we don't need to get mired in those details because they're underneath that there's something much more important which is this this notion of this inner heart and how this is needs to become the identity of the focus the focus of our identity as human being the soul when it is in a certain state it takes on these other qualities they're not separate entities it's when we and like you said this is why those Holly talked about them separately or differently at different times is because when the woman's has this essence of this certain aspect then we talk about it in this way that's important distinction I think that the the idea of life talking about it as separate things becomes confusing it's a kind of the concept and in our minds think linearly and we have a very hard time under things that are fluid and that are which essence is how he our Apple doesn't think naturally and powie we want to separate things out right and so the reason of a valley separates it out for us is because that's how we think but ultimately we're talking about things that there's so many deep secrets in them that we can't know because it's the realm of Allah and we we don't need to know but the the exercise that our scholars take us through is useful for us as psychologists because people are going to wonder about these things and in it and if nothing else it's helpful to detoxify us from the Western idea of the brain and the mind being the was ear of everything that's not the Islamic model the whole thing that I want to just point out is it that the yaki loon function is one aspect that is that is utilized by the heart to orient us towards the right way or the wrong way but so we just need to understand that when we're talking about psychology or not talking about the psyche in the way that the Western Way understands it it's much more that if we were to talk about the psyche as the soul where more can we're concerned with the soul and that is the inner unseen spiritual entity that exists in the human being and I think what Professor Malick is saying is exactly on point people are afraid to talk about that I'd rather not even I'd rather just make this the pulp in the middle but the reason why I do this this is what the salt is it's talked about a lot because because I think we need to talk about it because we've become disconnected from this we need to put it in its place so I just want to briefly I want to come back to this in a much more experienced away in a moment because I don't want to stay in the world of theory because I think I think we can get in our heads too much but I think what the reason I included these things on the side is because they came up across the board amongst all 18 scholars because in the conceptualization of the soul for the purpose of something like psychology helping somebody develop and grow they cook they all of them said like well it doesn't matter so much that you understand the structure of the soul because what matters is that your movie there's movement towards Allah and so they talked about these things this tension here that Professor Malik talked about the devil and the the pig and the lion Shaitaan right so the pig in the lion is Luca Luca Luca Luca is part that's down here this is bizarre these terminology movie cop is like similar to the vices in Aristotelian philosophy be careful of them what we got being struck down by lighting talking about that so well if the cut is the vices like the pig look Li cut is the pig so it's not just greed its its anger its aggression its jealousy it's things that get mired in this downward pull of the nuts I want I want what the nuts wants I want to be high power I want to have this right and so he talks about the multi-cut and diseases of the heart but then he talks about the moon jihad as cures of the heart the purest of those diseases so every disease has a transverse opposite as the cure and so and these are things like in in Aristotle's view that now was a lean and a lot of tape from aristotle build on it but there's they add to it much more that is directly derived from islam that you don't find in the greek version and so things like but things like wisdom and justice and things that are this higher aspect of character right so Mundi earth are these lower things that are sort of ugly bad character traits moon so I mostly Cod are these bad character traits whereas musiah are these high aspirations of character traits that were exemplified as the problem saviors and then in the middle again all of our focus is in the purple this is what we're concerned with this path of evill a flop is the refinement of character and we know from the life of the fossilized after some and from hadith there's so much emphasis on character on on a flop on the development of character because it's this work of refining our soul to be shining the light of the roof and becoming more within our fitrah of this higher aspect of ourselves and so V this V Belle Epoque is a process it's not thing right these are like descriptions of character traits that move the continents yeah line has a bigger boat down here but like so this line in in its negative aspect it's going to be like dominating and aggressive right but in the entire aspect in moonshot there's courageousness for the sake of business and sake of allah when you're doing this work of refining your character and so again everything has this cure to it so there's the diseases of the heart and the fears of all these are connected this process is connected to this whole the the controlling center because this is where we do this process and where our focus is of turning changing on the other side and again these are just processes to understand because it came up the scholars talked about how these concepts are key to understanding the development and so everybody hears about the stages of the nut right now Salama is this middle part where this low amma means self-reproaching in the sense that it's putting it holding itself accountable having reflection having or even sometimes in its in the fact that like you know you need you need to work on that because it's not awareness that it's either going into the nephilim are so nuts all Amara is like Professor Malik said when the soul is mired in this nuts this downward pull of again connected to the characteristics of the Mullica and it is feeding into what the nufs wants not making an effort necessarily to elevate and then most I would say in psychotherapy or in working with a person most of the work is here with muscle Lama a lot of people talk about many more levels of the nuts some people say there's five levels some people say seven but the the most agree the most agreement that I found that is spoken the most of is these three stages of the nos so enough some with marina is a rare thing most people will not get there but you can cross into this state because again it's the state that the soul is in sometimes you're in a good shape and you cross into this but you may not stay there as a mom as a station or like a house right and then somebody can come all the way up to enough solute marina and fall all the way back down enough Samar it's not when you make progress it's not guaranteed that you stay there because none of this is a static process it is dynamic and so the reason why so much important focus is on here is because we have to be diligent in this battleground to keep ourselves pure and oriented towards this upward drive this upward movement but always continually working so it's not about trying to achieve this unattainable place where we live here but it's constantly being focused in doing the work to orient towards this direction because what we know is we're always going to have this battle there's always going to be things pulling us down we have enough we have that can be enough Samata and and it even if we do really good in this work at times in our life and we even cross into like between here then something happens and we forget and it pulls us back down here and we come back into huff love and so it's this dynamic thing we're always sort of either here or there based on the work that we're doing here and I've been specifically pointing to this physical location in my body and this is where I think moving from theory to practicality is extremely important much more important than this shapes and busyness and so the the work that we're doing in this battleground the things that were most described these this time Jihad enough and test theater nuts now you could conceive of has it enough being a part of jihad enough because you have enough is basically this doing this work of the battle struggling against the soul so anything you're doing to move from nafse amara and in the state of not Salama of reproaching doing this work of making an effort to clean and be have these saviors come off you're doing jihad enough you're struggling with the with the soul which we which we understand from the prophetess that some is the greater jihad but then tested enough still you can conceive of that as part of jihad enough but the people the the scholars talk about it as this more advanced level of refining and polishing the soul really cleaning the heart so that it and I'm gonna explain what that process does yeah yeah path Lea is is so that there's a bunch of keywords path Lea yeah path Lea I think there's like three or four more yeah they're all similar in that they're doing work of purification purification of the heart you talk too sometimes your purification of the soul but again this terminology the heart is like the center of the soul so we'll that's really where we're focusing our purification esketh enough is more concerned with polishing and already relatively clean heart whereas jihad on us may be more considered just like getting these big crusted things off of the heart that's veiling you from even recognizing and it's like really doing this base work of orienting yourself let's get the nuts I think there's a more refined process to all this is just to get to this point and this is something that these scholars that interview also brought as a really important concept is that the goal is to orient ourselves and our clients towards our spiritual reality and there's something that's keeping us and blocking us from that inner spiritual reality and we learn about that we have black spots that are on our heart these black spots that they cover over the access to that purity and that purification the purification process is cleaning those black spots so you could also talk about it as the cub gets crusted over there's the crust or a rough in the Quranic mention that covers over the tub so I've removed the Apple just for our clarity for now we're talking about the inner part you get these black spots from let's say even simple things you are a baby you had good parents that didn't mean any harm and you spilled juice on the carpet and your father had a hard day at work there's a good man make money and he comes in and he yells I just paid for that carpet and you spilled on it and in that moment that the tile because it's so open and pure does this oh you know do you not love me and there's this covering that happens of like being removed from the love of Allah and this black spot forms from these simple experiences like this of this because we're oriented towards the dunya and we forget we're in separation the child is as came in to this world completely in witnessing of Allah but then through these experiences little by little they crossed over there's a crust that builds up through these black spots over that purity just by nature of being a human being in the dunya and then people who have really traumatic experiences you can imagine the amount these pack spots become much larger than what's harder to clear because they have really severely traumatic experience much more than spilling juice on the carpet but it's part of the human process we are going to get black spots and so what happens is we get this over our lives especially lives that are are oriented towards the self and our separation our understanding of who we are based on our juice carpet experiences we have this veil over our heart and therefore the rooh the inspiration that comes through the room can't penetrate and so what's happening is the work that's happening in this middle to peski is enough purification it's chipping away at this crust that's covering our heart so that what so that guru can shine on the poem and then what happens is the poem that root that light that shining from the rooh which is from Allah subhana WA Ta'ala but subhanAllah he gave us this access to his light this this light comes into the cub and then it can shine on enough when this is removed through the spirit the light can then shine on enough and purify the nuts but it's this this inner centre of ourselves that if we don't do the work to remove these things that are blocking us and live in the spiritual reality that exists inside of us then we do not have access to raise to these higher levels of our fitrah because we're we're blocked from it and so Hasan he talks about this inspiration that comes to the roof as being light he says yeah I need he described this light or this he described this like divine inspiration that comes here which can be in the form of knowledge like you can this divinely and be inspired to understand things and he says that this is this divine inspiration is light that distinguishes reality and falsehood and by which one finds a way out of uncertainty so it's this yaki Luna this is the heart seeing clearly and being able to see things as they are right and so then this concept of the light is used a lot if it's light shining on our hearts it's coming through divine inspiration and we know from the hadith recorded by even Abbas that the Prophet used to pray for light in his heart Allah grant me light in my heart in my hair and my skin in my bones and then in the Quran it says those who are those whose breasts are enlarging with Islam are upon a light from their Lord the pocke was asking about this lays out the Sun what is this enlarged what is this enlarged and he said it is an expansion of the chest an actual he responded by saying it's not it wasn't it it's not this theoretical abstract thing like literally a physical enlargement of the chest to let that light into the crusted heart center when you take a breath what happens to your chest it expands it enlargement because it's filled with air but what we were we're breathing in something that's coming from out so we're breathing inward we're being filled with this light if we do it consciously we can orient ourselves towards opening our hearts to access the divine light to break away this crusted 'no sover our heart and this is for me how I practice Islamic psychology it's not so much talk therapy because can you get somebody to access their heart and allow their heart their chest to enlarge in with light of Islam member Islam is a state state of Islam being a state of surrender to Allah and and in witness of them I asked like and can we do that simply by talking to people I certainly haven't been able to it's a tool talking is a tool to get people oriented towards this but ultimately what I have found to supercede and surpass any work in psychotherapy is physically orienting people towards this place in their physical body from here to here and from here here like Baba Malik was saying there's a connection with the spiritual heart to the physical organ of the heart the physical organ of the heart happens to be located in this place it also happens to be the center of our it's our solar plexus the center right and so we in the West this this notion of you know cogeco ergo sum I think therefore I am we've been dominated by this notion of living in the aqil only only rationality our identity is is is formulated by our thoughts you I ask people how do you feel they don't they just tell me what's happening to them they tell me their thoughts it's very difficult for so I usually I have to say okay that's great how do you feel and then I say well you know she did this to me and I was like okay but what is the sensation of that like what is the feeling of that because what I'm trying to do is orient people towards the heart center that actually physically is located remember yesterday we talked about holistic holistic vision of healing and it involves the body and why Hakim archuleta sort of went back and forth between spirituality and physicality because there's not necessarily a separation we need to identify ours are connecting with our souls and I've sold occupy our being they're not sectioned off into specific organ you know this is about a deeper spiritual aspect who you are or where you bring to the table so it kind of requires us to kind of really get into tune with who we are as Muslims and we're our own levels happy and this presents a challenge yes because then if we ourselves have been walking in this world as Muslims that a certain for a particular level there's no mirror then we have to have something that gives high expectation for career path right I mean we're talking about like psychologists as a career path you know people with study engineering and they go and they you get a degree a loss I could make money now but from our standpoint and this is what people do in psychology but from our standpoint as Islamic psychologists that is that is not nearly even scratching the surface because really in my discussions with clinicians in this work this notion above our role as professional mirrors or our profession is being this mirror that helps reflect what this reality is Nicole you can't be a mirror if you're not you haven't done some serious work of removing the crust away from your own heart because then when you're reflecting you're projecting to use a word from Western psychology you're reflecting the crust on your own heart you're reflecting your knucks orientation you're reflecting your identity of the self they're reflecting what your expectations are for this other person based on your bad character qualities that you haven't purified and clean and then it's a matter of who's who's guiding this work you know if you're if you're mired in the self and you have your own notions and ideas and I'm going to come in here and I'm gonna heal this person my job is to heal this person no it's not a lot heals people we don't have any part in the healing we're just as bad but we can't be good as bad if we're blocked ourselves or we even have these positive understandings of our position somehow our position is this being slaves and being open receptors to help reflect which is why you know it is it's as simple as professor Skinner says it like I don't do anything I just sit there and I stand I get in a state for somebody has been doing it for so long it's easy to say that but then I have asked him because I know the reason our last famous is how do we teach people how to do this and he's like I just get in the state and I'm like okay yes but like I can't we can't have a curriculum on that you know like and so people need to understand all these things to only eight themselves to do that are called the public what's most important is is just connecting with your heart and cleaning it now there's a whole tradition of how we do that that we need to tap into this is that scares enough so it's work is it's so much work it is dedication it's how to be a it's discipline it's not I want to I want to make I want to have a Mercedes and I want to help people so I'm going to be a psychologist because I can make a good living there's nothing wrong with making a living but remember it lasts like having your intention first and foremost the reason why I love what I do is because I found a way to actually make it's not a great living but I make a living doing the only thing I would want to do my whole life is just work on myself but I if I go and I become an engineer where you know nothing wrong with the engineers I love into we need engineers but what I'm saying is how beautiful to get to to you know in order to be a good therapist or artist the professional development in our case is our own development and so the more that we learn how to remove the crust from our heart is the only way we'll be able to help people remove own cuts from their heart and most of that is really about transmission if you can be in a state of a clean heart then you transmit you invite the other person to be in that place and this is what's happening in this professor Skinner clinical model of sitting and being with somebody is that but you we need to we need to consciously and like in order you don't just get there it's you need to learn how to do it and you need to practice and in this case practice doesn't make perfect practice this is you just have to continually practice and and it's about constancy not consistency meaning we have to constantly be engaged in this work of peski is enough and doing our reflecting on ourselves and cleaning ourselves the constancy is creating this this robe of Allah you know so that because we can't be continually waving like this you need to have this consist constant practice every single day you're doing reflection this is a pretty high ideal but so is entrusting the souls of people in our care it's something really really we need to take with a lot of gravity you know it's not something we want to just do lightly and so if we're not as serious about our own work for the sake of these other people then we're doing them and ourselves with this service so I say that not to scare people away from this work but what's better to be doing with your time really really important question um mine I think people can have different orientations this I tend to go to the extreme of what Professor Malik is saying that we need to be spiritual people we need to be oriented toward spirituality therefore to me everything for the sake of Allah and for our spiritual pest in this life and so when somebody has a clinical imbalance let's say a clinical biological thing that's creating this presenting problem clinically then we run with the Islamic tradition and from like what we learned yesterday we're supposed to heal our bodies we're supposed to work work with that biology to come to a place of homeostasis or right and so you absolutely if people have I'd say biological things but it's also a trauma trauma people experience trauma and they're in a state that they didn't it's not it's not this negative thing of like oh it smoothly caught their bad character traits because they deserved it and it's it's nutsy thing some people are oriented towards that because they've been victimized totally and unjustly and so this is a semantic thing that we need to correct in our community as people come so even the word pelvic I mean I might go off at a tangent here well bring it around and say it's not about you know the profit made Tober a hundred times a day he was my assumed how about is about turning to allah we don't need to be so occupied with sin but so what I'm saying is say let's take trauma first for example somebody has trauma and they're experiencing anger because as a result of being beaten or being humiliated or being wrongly abused their symptom of that can be this traumatic response to perhaps it comes out in Mullica it comes out in aggression let's say or these certain ways that it manifests that create a problem which is why somebody would come to therapy because there's something that's not allowing them to function in their normal life right so now or you think towards this model does not mean they're saying oh well you're you're angry therefore you you failed battleground testing and you're bad and therefore we have to make you good no it's just they're human and that's a resultant so you still because you still want to deal with sorting out that you know however they got there they are exhibiting these diseases of the heart so our goal still should be curing the diseases of the heart from a soul perspective now if it's a biological thing giving them medication whether it's plant medicine or whether it's pharmaceutical medication is for the purpose of removing the major thing that's not even allowing the person to sort of even get to the point of doing any type of spiritual work because they're just trying to function but then what from an assignment perspective is that enough for us are we just trying to get them to function I don't think so I mean from a Western perspective that would be enough great hello we got there psycho psychotic episodes under control with this medication they can live in their house they can you know maybe even have a job we've succeeded but it's still just a junior oriented life so we can use psychotropic medications I prefer as much as possible to use natural things for why I described yesterday but sometimes you don't have access to those things we have to use psychotropic medications for what to get the person to a place so they can start to do this work because they're still going to after that they're still going to be on the day of judgment held accountable for what's in their soul but some of them are not going to be held accountable to the things that they've been earning themselves and so and even sometimes people who we call psychotic we have this whole tradition of Majnoon people who I've talked to show you about this and this isn't across the board but some people I said told me that sometimes a person is in this state of mind known as a protection for them a lot put this condition in them too test them from something else because by the nature of their soul they didn't have that they would fall into something else that they would then be held accountable for in the day of judgment so it's of mercy from Allah span Allah Tala to be given this state because it's gonna put them in a better place in Africa - a game-changer again right because we're always doing you oriented we're always like oh well we want things to be comfortable in the dunya and we want to remove these psychotic psychotic nests only exists in the dunya souls aren't psychotic in a Kedah and so to add on to your question validates you may never do this work for some clients you know they may not be ever ready to do it but you need to assess that and if they are ready you have to you have to do this work with them we're still within the model of regular cycle we're still we're still our first concern is somebody's safety you know like I'm not you can oh you can't heal a person's soul for that but if they're not alive you know we safety you know if they're in an abusive situation you deal with getting them out of that abusive situation you don't say like okay let's connect with your heart and heal your heart and then put you back into this abusive situation so I want to make sure that that's clear but once you've sorted all that stuff out you know I mean because often times I mean I know people have been in therapy for eight years every week I'm like and I'm like where have you taken them like what where are we going and so it shouldn't sometimes it they'll never get there like I said but there's some things that seem like they'll take forever to slow down it doesn't really take that long once they have what they need to just be able to realize okay I'm safe it's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs right get that all sorted out then and his words you can self actualize in our words you can witness a lot oh I see you saying like do you have to wait to get to a certain level of cleanliness in your hearts and work with people I want to say sort of you know because then it's an ethical issue right but no but there is no I mean you can't say okay now I'm cleaning it up like it's an ongoing process and it's gonna be fully different for everybody but at the very least I would hope that people go through these type of training sessions to at least be oriented towards that who have the tools and to know and to have some sort of supervision level to know like okay you're doing you know have a pious or fep at least but then like it's not it's an ongoing life process so yeah you can't say like I'm ready because there's no end to the journey hmm great question okay she's saying like um the concept of black spots accumulating on the heart laughs I mean unfortunately we're black has a negative connotation yeah all right but but but it's covering over it's we you know people want to like say Catherine call everybody a Catholic there's certain degree we we cover over our hearts daily uh oftentimes right Kitana it's this process of covering and so I think you can conceive of the black spots as a covering on the heart or failing to the heart in that case that of a traumatic experience has nothing to do with somebody's badness or blackness in their heart they can still be completely innocent but that that act of being in the dunya and that experience put a veil on their heart between them in a law manifestation of this idea of bringing light into the heart so that we can start to twist that light break through the crust those those black spots are the veil on the heart when you start to enlarge in it's like you're letting little by little you're letting this light come in and when light comes into darkness darkness fades darkness gets obliterated the light always penetrates the darkness and so the process for me of healing the heart which is what I'm concerned of in psychotherapy it's finding ways of allowing this light to be enlarging in the test to penetrate those coverings in our heart to bring that light into our heart you