I don't think I'm your core Gym Shark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite-mindedness and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare. I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now. Everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time. I am an idealist. The things that I write about, the things that I speak about are about an ideal version of the way the world and business could work. But every now and then, every now and then, I get to meet a company that, well, it's hard for me to be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality. People are always asking me what businesses really exemplify the things that I write about. Well, one of them is Gym Shark. Gym Shark makes one thing for one audience. They make amazing gymwear for people who go to the gym. We do gym, as they say. And Ben Francis is one of the most remarkable young leaders I've ever met. He's the founder and CEO of Gym Shark. And he's only 33 years old. And in 13 years, he has built an iconic global brand. And how has he done it? By keeping it absolutely pure and wanting to build a company that can outlast him. In fact, one that can last a hundred years. And given how so many young entrepreneurs start their businesses and try to build their businesses, waiting for the IPO, waiting for the exit, trying to have a liquidity event, Ben is the complete opposite. He is driven by the purest form of entrepreneurship to make great products for one community as best as he can and the result is profound. This is a bit of optimism. [Music] I think you know this. I'm a huge fan of yours. Um, we've only met once before. Um, I knew about you and I knew about Jim Shark and it was we met last year for the first time just cuz I wanted to to meet you. You are what is I think the purest form of what an entrepreneur is an entrepreneur should be. Thank you. uh and you've built a company that has that same purity. Gym Shark was born in a gym. You made the product yourself, which is like this quintessential entrepreneurial story. Other people wanted the stuff that you were making for yourself and before you know it, you're selling more than you can sew yourself and thus is born Gym Shark. Yeah. How are you able to maintain sort of if we use the word purity, you're now a huge company. You're a global company. I'm at your headquarters here. There's three buildings worth of offices, you know. How are you able to make it still stay so focused and not be tempted to go do everything else? Oh, well, we're definitely tempted. Uh, and we have been over the years. Thank you, by the way. I think that was really kind of you to say, but I think the the business is well, we're 12, 13 years old now, and there's been so many different versions of our business since Gym Shark first started. It's difficult at times to recognize what is a temptation and what is a really viable and valuable opportunity because the business has changed so much since it first started. So, if I think back to 2012, 2013, uh, Gym Shark only sold supplements. We didn't even sell apparel. And then we, it was only through running the business, we sort of fell in love with making apparel, to your point, literally for ourselves cuz we couldn't find the clothes that we wanted to wear. And then that naturally then removed, we would then remove supplements because it was it that then became a distraction. Particularly over the last sort of year, I think we've really hit our stride in knowing what is and isn't Gym Shark for us. And this is more of a a medium to larger business problem. I don't think this is a problem that maybe too many startups would have, but it was really about defining what is Gym Shark. And that's where the we do gym campaign sort of started. It was about making sure that we're we're laser focused on what really makes us special. And again, that sort of we do gym campaign that all came from our desire and ambition to be what we we talk a lot internally about being a 100red-year brand. We want to be a brand that lasts longer than than myself or anyone here at this business. That that's the real real ambition. And I admire a lot of brands that really do stand the test of time. So, if we look at it from a topline perspective, if we want to build a brand that will stand the test of time, to do that, we have to be really good at one thing, and it's we're really focused on the gym. We're laser focused on the gym in a way that that almost no one else is in the world. That's what makes us special. That's what we're going to focus on and that's what we're going to make sure we're the best in the world at. So you So all of your stuff is made for proper use in the gym and you may want to wear it for fashion, but that's up to you where I think a lot of brands are the other the opposite which is look how fashionable and beautiful our stuff is and it may or may not actually work in the gym. Yeah. I'm thinking about some of your your or sportsware focus. So I'm a massive admirer of some of the really big sportsware brands and like they they were very much around sports. Even we if we look at Nike for example, Nike started with a running shoe and then obviously then is is heavily a sports focused brand to me and yeah people wear it outside of sports for fashion and so on but it's it is a sportsware brand and so are many of the other big brands whereas we've said that we're not going to get into sport competitive sport team sport isn't a gym shark thing. the gym is the gym chart thing and it's it's interesting because the gym in many ways is a solitary pursuit but it's also aided by a broader community and I think that's what we've really noticed and I noticed again um I first went to the gym when I was about 16 and it was so intimidating to me cuz I walked into this gym and there was all these weights and I didn't really know how to use the machines I didn't know what I was doing I went in I was trying to do things and I thought everyone was looking at me cuz I was doing it all wrong in reality everyone was sort of more worried about themselves than they about me and everyone was probably in their own heads as well. And then I actually went online. I was on bodybuilding forums and things like that, YouTube to learn exercises and to find people that were basically going through the same thing as me. And again, that's where Gym Shark was born out of building the apparel that no one else was making, but then also trying to offer that community to kids very much like myself at the time that were getting into the gym. How long in before you started thinking, I probably need some sort of vision. I probably need some sort of strategy. these words that you know get thrown about in the entrepreneur world. I think a lot of people don't realize that it's not really how it happens. At minimum five years. Yeah. So if I So if I think back to how Gym Shark first started, so before Gym Shark, I so I loved making things, websites, iPhone apps, things like that. And I actually had I think I had about six or seven that I'd started prior that had failed that just I'd tried and it just hadn't quite worked. Gym Shark when it first started was I had an ambition to build a website that would sell things and transact every nothing else at that point had ever sold anything. It was a forum or it was a mini sort of social network. It was an iPhone app and they didn't really make money and the whole idea was they would through through ads. They were all free and they would make money through ads. So I thought I'd love to sell something. Um, and the Gym Shark website was a website that sold things. I mean, we at the time we found Shopify and that just made life 10 times easier than what it was prior. So that the ambition was actually incredibly low. The ambition was to make a website that would sell things. And then once we' done that again, which was actually relatively easy, then it was let's sell something on the website. And then I sort of thought at the time I thought, okay, now instead of selling other people's things, sell our own things. No, just sell something. cuz just because I thought that once we made a website, it's almost like having a shop on the high street. People would just find their way there and someone would buy something and no one did for months. There was there was not enough stuff on the website. So, it was supposed to sell supplements and there was a friend of mine that worked not far from here and he worked as a salesperson in a supplement uh supplement brand and I called him up and I said I said, "Dan, can you can you get us some supplements to sell on this website?" And he went away and he said, "Yeah, I'll get you a deal. I'll get you a deal on mate trade sort of thing." and um he rang me back and he said, "Right, I've got you a deal. I can get you some supplements. You can put these on your website and sell them, but the minimum buy is eight grand." Now, I'd never heard of eight grand, let alone seen eight grand, right? I was a pizza 4 pound something an hour at the time. And I love the job, by the way, but I just I wasn't going to get that sort of money together. And I thought, "Oh god." So, this whole idea of selling things online is great until you need products, until you need inventory. Anyway, with that problem, I then happened to fall upon a concept online called drop shipping. And then that was great. That was music to my ears because I thought, "Wow, this website that's going to sell things, I can now sell things without having to buy those things in the first place." So I basically had hundreds of supplements on the website and they would drop ship from another website. Now the margin was really low, but at that point the ambition wasn't it wasn't to make money necessarily. It was to sell something. I think it took a few months and eventually we sold something and I remember it to this day. It was a 5 kilog 5 kg tub of USN hyperbolic mass. Someone bought it and it was 52 and uh of the£52 uh2 was profit and it took two or three months to get to that point. So it took two or three making a pound a month in profit from that one order. Right. But it didn't matter to me because at the at that point the am working you still working your pizza job. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Actually I was for a long time after that. But I think the ambition was literally to sell something. And I think there's there's a lot to be said when starting a business, going back to your original point, not to have these massive ambitions to build a 100redyear brand. I think there's a lot to be said about having incredibly low ambitions. Set the bar so incredibly low and just incrementally build that thing because then that sale I remember being at my mom and dad's in my bedroom dancing around the room and I was so happy. And a lot of people that sell things online will never ever forget that first sale, that first moment. And a lot of people that sell in markets or at shops, they'll all have that same feeling. And I'll never ever ever forget it. And then that's where that sort of momentum, that excitement builds. And then it's let's sell, let's try and sell, we've gone from one sale, let's try and sell one thing a month. Let's try and sell two things a month. Let's try and sell four things a month. Let's try and sell something every week, every day. Let's try and build product that's to a margin that would allow us to run a sustainable business. And then it just grows and grows and grows and goes from there. So, we didn't start the business with the ambition to build a 100red-year brand. We didn't have a vision or anything like that. We hadn't set out our values. A lot of the things that a lot of big businesses really need, I think, to, you know, manage themselves particularly directionally. And, you know, we just started a business to sell things and then to sell more things and just slowly build that business. And then it it we then just started getting regular sales and it was really obvious to me because of the low margins in drop shipping that it just that just wasn't a viable business. And um my nan was actually doing a curtain making course at the time and she had a sewing machine on a dining room table. And it was seeing that that made me think, well maybe we could make clothes and we could make our own clothes. And then we literally just started making clothes for ourselves and our friends, put them online and and that's where it all started. goes back to purity which is I think the model for a lot of young entrepreneurs are you know the the unicorns uh and a unicorn the definition's changed slightly but you know it used to be a company that that achieves a billion dollars in revenues and I think it's market cap which is a lower standard um and there's only if you go by revenues you know for a new business to achieve a billion dollars in sales is it's a very small number it's a very very small number which is why they're called unicorns out of the millions and millions and tens of millions of businesses that exist and I think a lot of young entrepreneurs you know they they look to Silicon Valley as their model and they look and they you know the ambition is is the IPO and the ambition is wealth and the you know um and so it's very rare to hear a CEO to hear a founder say I I want to build a hundred-year business when did that idea come and why did that idea do come like why why build a hundred-y year business why not build you know 20 years why not just you know Steve Jobs even said like when I leave if Apple collapses who cares you know yeah I think I don't know I don't those weren't his exact words but I don't know where the idea came from I I think it's a lot lots of different things I think I've always been the the the thing that really I really enjoy is obviously speaking to customers building a great brand and really focusing on the product I just I just love those three things and that if you said to me what is your perfect week it would be that it would be at a Gym Shark event with the community with the athletes talking about the product you know it would be that sort of thing I I also think maybe it's as the businesses continue to grow you you def you know you look around and you think what you know what what are we trying to achieve here what are we what are we trying to build and I think I also look back to probably the first job I ever did so when I was a teenager I did work experience with my granddad and we I worked with him a fair here. Uh we would go around the Midlands where we are today and we would line furnaces. So we'd line furnaces with brick, with ceramic fiber and you know there were long days um but in those long days you would end up just just talking and you know I learned so much from him. I learned all about you know taking risks, taking business risks from him. He was a he's a oneman band. He still works today. So I think I learned a lot from him and he taught me a lot about being really grateful to have work. Um, you know, I think a lot of people certainly around here, you know, what don't always have work. So, I think being in a job that I really love and having so much to do, I think is an absolute blessing and I feel so fortunate to be in this position. So, I think there's a bit of that. I think as well I I sort of looked at what we're building and I sort of recognize that it is quite unique. We're so branding and community focused. There aren't that many businesses in our that have the opportunity that we now have. So, I think it's a bit of that, but I'm not really sure. But the one thing I have known sort of as this h 100redy year brand vision has sort of come to fruition in my mind over the last few years that it's definitely changed the way that I think about things quite a lot. It's it's changed the way that we think about our brand, the way that we think about our product development, even the way that we think about hiring. And again, I don't know exactly where it came from. I think it's just I I know I've been inspired by lots of businesses local to here. So if you think within just a few miles of where we are now, you've got Jaguar Land Rover down the road. Land Rover is an incredible brand. It's a brand that I've been around literally my entire life. I love Land Rovers. I love the authenticity of their product and I love that they build the best off-roaders. I I love the fact that they build the best off-roaders since the 1940s when they were founded still to today. I think that's really inspiring. Uh you've got Cadbury in Bourneville as well, which which is a chocolate brand out of the UK. And I think seeing those brands that have really stood the test of time is really really cool to me. So I think it's a combination of lots of things. It's lots of things of being really happy in the job I do and loving it. The opportunity of the brand that we've got and then being inspired by being inspired by other people that have done a similar thing. Um, hold on. Let me go down that rabbit hole for a little bit. Again, I'm going to back to sort of what entrepreneurs, young entrepreneurs sort of what their models are. And they're looking at the companies that had the exit. They're looking at the company that went public. They're looking at the company that, you know, that that's that's their model. And you're talking about the companies you admire. You know, Cadri is what, 100 years old or plus. You know, it's a very old company and they're still making chocolate. You know, that's that's still their thing. And Land Rover, that iconic Land Rover, you know, yes, they've done a things on the side here and there for different markets, but they've always had that core 4x4, you know, the 4x4 is their bread and butter. Yeah. And they've never veered from it. And as you said, it's like, we do one thing, we do one thing really, really well, and we can do stuff on the sides, but we'll never abandon this. Yeah, but how did you come to it? Is it just because you grew up in Birmingham? Is it like how did you come to use as your model for the kind of company that you want to build these iconic brands? But they're not just iconic, they're old. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's I think it's a combination. I think again the more I thought about it, even just selfishly in terms of me, I love my I love the job that I do and this is this is all I want to do. I don't want to I've got no ambitions to be doing anything else. And if I wasn't doing this, I would I would be basically doing something that's very similar to this. I saw a I saw a video of Mark Zuckerberg the other week and someone asked him I think it's quite an old video. Someone asked him, you know, you get loads of money for you just sell it, you can go and do something else. And I think his response was he said that he did a lot of thinking about it and he he he came to the conclusion that if he did sell it, he would just use the money to start something that looks a lot like what he was doing then or a lot like Facebook. And I sort of feel like I'm in a similar position. But I also think there's a level of if you're building for the long term or sorry if you're building anything in general, there's a level of separation that you have to have between your personal ambitions and your your ambitions for your business. I think they're two slightly different things. Say more. Well, so when and this I learned this years ago in my early 20s. the the business started to grow really quickly and I very quickly realized that I wasn't the right person to be the CEO and run the business for that period for that that specific period of growth. Um so brought in a CEO called Steve who did a really really good job and that was really great for me because he would do the CEO job and I could then go in and spend so much time on brand on product. I was traveling the world, going to events around the world, spending time in the gyms with the consumer, building product in the factories, working with athletes, brand teams and marketing teams, and I could do all the bits that I was really good at, but then I could also learn operations and finance and supply chain and bits that maybe wasn't quite as exciting to me, knowing that I sort of always had that safety blanket or that sort of cover with having a CEO that could then help fix any of the problems that I had sort of thing. And I I always I liken it to I could go into the finance department and I could make a thousand mistakes and know that between the CFO and Steve as the CEO, they would sort of fix those mistakes. But that meant that I had a period of rapid learning. And it's almost like being able to do if I said, Simon, you do this exam and you did it and you got 50%. And then a week later I said, I'm going to give you the same exam and you can do it again, then the week later you might get 60% and then 70%. and you can just keep learning at a rate and have a better output, you know, just because you're doing it over and over again and there's no consequence of failure with it within reason. Yeah. Yeah. So that was important to me because then I I quickly learned that even though I have ambition, you know, I'd love to run the company. Everyone wants to run their own company. There's almost I guess to a degree there's nothing worse than not running your own company. Yeah. But I realized that because of my ambitions for the business, I wanted the business to succeed more than I wanted to be the CEO. Right. Then that that then paid back in dividends because the business grew far more quickly. I could learn more quickly. I enjoyed my job. Steve enjoyed his job. And you know now I moved back into the CEO job three years ago. I think it was four years ago and I feel so much more well equipped to do that. And the reason you came back is not because Steve was doing a bad job. The reason you came back is because you got the education you needed to have the job that you wanted but weren't prepared for. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. So it was that I I had learned on the job which was great. Steve came to me and he was his self-awareness was incredible. He said, "I'm, you know, I don't want to run the business at the, you know, at the next scale or I don't feel like it's right for me to run the business at the at the scale that it is now." And he actually said to me, we were work working away in Hong Kong. I remember he he said to me, "It's not right for me to run the business at the ne in the next phase." And I was like, "Oh god, so who's going to do it then?" And then he said, um, he was like, "I think you can do it." And I thought, "Oh god." And I I don't think I really responded. I said, we flew home. I don't know how long the flight is or eight or nine hours or whatever. And then I think it was the next day or two I said, you know, yeah, I'm I'm going to do it. I feel I don't I don't necessarily feel ready, but I'm gonna I'm gonna do it because, you know, it's I it felt like the right time for me to do it. So, I think again having real bold ambitions for the business, but then also being really realistic about your own skill set is quite important to me. Um, and yeah, and then I guess through those years as CEO, I then was thinking what I sort of then I I started to think more critically about what do I want this brand to be and where do I want it to where do I want it to go? And I think, you know, getting a bit older, we've got three kids now. Um, you know, everyone everyone wants to be a cool dad, right? And I think there's nothing cooler than building something that really stands the test of time that the kids can look at and go, "Oh, well, you know, my dad built that or, you know, the the Gym Shark team built that." And I think that to me, I don't know, I've just got a real admiration of brands that can really stand the test of time. There are so many brands that come out of nowhere and explode and then they disappear, but there are very few that really stand the test of time. And I' I'd love for Jim Shart to be one of the few that does stand the test. I've met a lot of um founder, CEOs who did have an exit and they've moved on and sometimes they start something new, sometimes they don't. um and their companies um whether they're become public or whether they get bought by some private equity firm, they the you know some of these highly highly ethical CEOs who built a company to have an impact in the world and and be build strong cultures that you know are great places to work. I bring them their companies and their current states and I say look at what your company's become. It's doing unethical things. It's not a great place to work. They've changed the ingredients of the products that they're not pure anymore. I thought you cared so much about impact and clarity and great place to work. This is this is this was your company. Yeah. And they all are able to rationalize it away. Yeah. Well, you know, it was good while it was and while I was there and then but basically what they did is they took the money. Yeah. You know, and uh and again, there's a there's a there's a reason why you're one of my favorite CEOs. Uh and I'm not a hardcore gym rat. like, yeah, I go, but you know, I'm not your tra I don't think I'm your core Gym Shark customer, but I'm absolutely in love with your company because I preach these models of infinite-mindedness and that um and that committing to something bigger than yourself and ensuring that it can outlast you in its current form is very rare. And the reason I wanted to have you on here and the reason I was so glad that you said yes is because you're not an 80-year-old C former CEO going in my day this is how we ran companies. You're a young CEO running a very very popular company that is beloved by your employees and your and your mentality of how to run that business and the way you and the way you're trying to build it are completely opposite than what is considered I would say normal standard. And I think that the the reason I'm rooting for you so much is that if you succeed and you share with people different ways to make decisions based on having this hundred-year mentality, my hope is that your model of building a business becomes standard again. You know, where building these short-term companies where you're only driven by the quarter becomes something we read about in the history books or those those become the minority. You know, you shouldn't be special. Yeah. Um uh because as you said Cad Breeze and and Land Rover and some of these iconic brands, they've done something differently. Yeah. And something that's important and something worth protecting and holding on to. Um decision-m you you you said before we turned on the cameras, you said since I decided to build a 100red-year company, it's changed the way I make decisions. It's changed the way I hire. Can you share more about what that lens has done for you and what kind of decisions you would have made that you're making differently now? I guess product would be the most obvious one. So again, as you grow, it's so easy to get tempted to and we did this for a bit, right? So we built we broadened our product range massively and the whole idea is the broader the product range, the more people that you can appe appeal to and obviously the bigger you can build the business. And what do you mean by broader product? as in offer we could offer uh sports wear and swimwear and hiking wear and all these different things and lots of different things that sort of come out and are closely associated to but not quite the same as and people were asking for it, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, if we go on the website, there are lots of searches for a lot of these different things. But what we've since done is we we launched the the you know our new sort of campaign which is we do gym and we've said we're just going to be the best at gymwear and we're going to focus solely on building the best gym wear in the world not by going into all of these different things. And I think going back to some of the big brands is they're they're really good at what they do. There there's you know Nike are probably the best well they are the best sportsware brand in the world and we're never ever ever going to out compete them on that. And also it's not my personal passion. My personal passion always has been the gym since I was 16. I fell in love with the gym. And I fell in love with the gym because it was the first thing in my life where I directly got out of it what I put in. And I knew that if I I went to school and I try really hard at certain subjects and I get terrible grades. I wouldn't try other subjects and I get good grades. And the whole input to output thing just didn't quite make sense to me until I was 16. And I then realized if I go to the gym five days a week, if I, you know, if I'm on the treadmill or if I'm lifting weights, whatever it is, I will get out of that what I put in put in one. That's really really that was really important for me as a as a moment. So I'm really passionate about the gym. We're really passionate about the gym. So we're going to f focus on the gym. That's it. That's where our consumer is. That's where our product should be designed around. That is our that's our USP. That's our competitive advantage. And that's what we're really good at. Now, obviously, there's more to it, right? So when the brand was first started, we um we've grown up in the UK. We would buy um like t-shirts, Top Man 2 for10 t-shirts was just a thing. So two t-shirts for £10 was amazing. So affordability is really important for us because when you're joining the gym, you don't want to be spending loads of money on really expensive stuff. You want really good quality um and you want it to perform, but equally you don't want to have to pay loads and loads of money. So affordability is really important for us. We have to build affordable product for our consumer and it has to be the best gym wear in the world. And if we do those three things, everything else then tends to fall into place as long as we're thoughtful about. So you were tempted to go in all these directions, swimmer, hiking, all of these things, but we said no, we're just going to focus on So but and you said but you did try those things, right? You did start expanding your product line. Yeah. But and then we ended up basically having a longer tail basically. So we had lots of products that would sort of um sell less basically. So we we proportionately sold more. The business obviously continues to grow. But then rather than selling 50 of two products, we were selling uh you know 10 of uh 10 of 10 different products. So it's we we were selling a similar amount but you know across lots of different things and and isn't that isn't that a good business? Isn't that what everybody every company wants to sell more of everything? You know traditional business would say ah that's sticky because now our customer wants our hiking gear and they want our swimming gear and they want our you know gym gear. Look, we're creating sticky because I think the second there's the there's consequences and to us the consequences are are the brand is watered down and then also what you've got is you're splitting your sort of reason to believe for a product across lots of different things. And it's it's interesting. We launched a product about a month ago, two months ago. Um it's our it's what we call our Onyx product. It's the most extreme Gym Shark product that you can possibly sell. It's it's a thick seamless product. It's all around bodybuilding. It's all it's a men's product all around accentuating your physique. The the audience size for that is one, you know, 1% of that in hiking or in lots of different uh lots of different things. It was by far the biggest launch that we've ever done. We had over 400,000 people sat on the website waiting to buy this product. And you would look at it and you would think most people I know probably wouldn't wear this product, but it's because we were speaking to our core core audience, the lifter, the bodybuilder that wants to really accentuate their physique, wear the Gym Shark logo. uh seamless tight fitting product and it's a it's an incredible product. It's a brilliant product that we're so proud of. But it is a very niche product and again what we found is we win or we do the best and we I guess build the most clarity with our customer is when we just focus on doing what we're really good at and not trying to be so you did expand. You went to hiking and swimming and all that but then you contracted you you closed all those down. Yeah. We said we're going to do gymware really well and then we basically narrowed the product range massively. And what is the benefit of selling 50 of one versus or 50 of two versus 10 of 10? So well one is really focused on the gym which which is what we but I mean you aside like as a business concept. Oh so well you get far better economies of scale with suppliers which means you get you get more purchase leverage. You can obviously uh work more closely on the product. So you've got you'll have a higher quality of product I would say. So you know you if you need 10 developers to build 10 products you need five to build five. So it's you then get far more economies of scale and efficiencies through the business and you've got your entire business focused on something that's really specific. So it's not only you don't get you only get brand benefit. You build a better product. You have a more efficient and effective business and it's everyone's march in the same direction. This is genius. Here's the analogy. It just occurred to me now because even me like my knee-jerk reaction is if you can sell 10 of 10 and you can expand my goodness you can get all these new customers. Mhm. But the analogy is I hate restaurants that have very big menus because how can you make all of these dishes taste good? There's just no way. You have ingredients sitting in the fridge for too long. There's just no way, right? And the best restaurants in the world have quite small menus. You know, there's a very limited selection because they have a limited amount of very high quality ingredients. And so this is what you're saying, which is this is your menu. It's a small menu. And that way I can I can absolutely guarantee that this will be the best food you've ever eaten, the best product you've ever had because I'm not distracted and I don't have to try and sell cuz I've got excess, you know, merchandise sitting over there. I've got excess chicken that I got to push the chicken before it goes before it goes off. It's exactly the same. It's a small menu and I think and then to your point then on that if we've got a narrow product range that is really focused around gym it means we can better leverage our finite resources to being the best in the world at that right but then I guess the second order consequences of that are or looking to build a 100redyear brand is then the people that are involved in Gym Shark are really focused on that and then when you think about hiring if you're hiring for a short-term goal if we're hiring just to get to X by 3 years then you'll hire you I I found that you're far more likely to hire externally and you'll always then bias towards have they done it before I need someone that's done what I want to do before externally hire them in can you do what you did there here when I think about building a 100redyear brand I don't want people to come in particularly you know into leadership or senior teams I don't want people to come in for three years do what they've done somewhere else to do it here I want people to join for 10 20 30 years I want people to build a career here and to be really focused around the long term of the business and to really put the business first rather than just this be a stepping stone on in their career. So you've got product effects, you've got sort of hiring effects, and then if you think about our brand, the we do gym campaign is perfect. It's three words, but it says exactly what Gym Shark is. It's all about the gym. And then for us then, it's not about we do gym, we do this, we do that. It's literally we do gym. And we want to land that message as regularly as possible so that it's really clear as to what we are. But going back to the hiring practices, right? And again, you know, we're having a problem in X. I'm going to hire somebody who's done this before. I've made this mistake. I've hired somebody who's done it before. They come into our culture and I'm like, "Okay, you've done it. Please do it." And it it rarely works well because they try and force us to do things the way their old company did it, not, you know, or or there's an insecurity, right? Because their whole sense of selfworth is I have to repeat that. and their desire to push their boundaries, do things differently, challenge themselves, throw out the playbook is dramatically reduced because they have to repeat their success. Yeah. But their success is the past. There's a great story. You might appreciate this. I I got a tour of Apple for and the Apple historian took me around and he was telling me like you know they've hired some remarkable people like this person invented this for Google and this person invented that for Facebook and now they all work at Apple and they walk around with these inflated egos and in sitting in meetings and go I don't think you know what I did at Google and somebody invariably at Apple will lean forward and say um we don't care what you've done we care what you're going to do. Mhm. Uh how do you hire young people where uh you know culturally it's much more acceptable to bounce from job to job to job? Are you very clear that you know we want to hire somebody who wants to stay for a long time. Do you like do your young do your youngest employees find themselves working here for four, five, six, seven years and they can't believe they've been here longer than any of their have held a job longer than any of their friends? More of that. I think this is a transition that we've made in the last two years. So we're starting to move through that and we're definitely seeing that. The other thing that we've noticed is um we we're sort of in a way bringing more inhouse than what a lot of other people would do as well. So I don't know if if you saw over the road we've got a full sampling facility and we've got great technical expertise here now. a lot of other people would just outsource all that and just give that to factories. It's really important to us whilst we work really closely with our partners that a lot of the sampling, a lot of the development, a lot a lot of like a mini factory across the street and it's but we want to own that internally. And again, if you were doing it purely on a short-term P&L, you wouldn't run that because that if you took all that cost out, then obviously that would just increase profitability. But for us, the profitability that we have is there to be reinvested into the long-term future of the business. And it's really important for us to have genuine product developers and technical experts inhouse rather than outsource that because that's our that's our our most powerful asset, right? Is our people, but our technical ability to build our product. Yeah. And I I don't want to be constantly outsourcing some of the most special things of of our brand. You told me a lovely story about your your grandfather that at the end of every year, he calls you up and asks you one question. Did you make any money this year? Yeah. And if he all you have to do is say yes. Yeah. You would never ask how much. Just say, "Did you make any money this year?" Yeah. Well done, lad. That's it. Clearly, you have financial goals. I mean, you're a sophisticated company. Yeah. If you've missed that financial goal, but you're profitable, are you happy or are you angry? I think it depends. Um, again, in the last few years, because we've been changing our strategy and the way that we want to approach things, I I think if if we're moving in the right right direction, which we absolutely are, then I'd be happy. I think it's really important to me to remember that forecasts are forecasts. Forecasts are a, you know, it's a best guess at where you're going to be generally at the start of the financial year and we'll reforcast as we go through the year. The important thing for me is did we stick to doing what we said we were going to do in the really important parts of our business that matter. So, did we continue to nail that we do gym campaign? Did we continue to really invest into our product in the right way? um you know, is the shape of our business where we want it to be? Have we had that really nice, incredible new product development, which we're really proud of? Those are the things that really matter. Now, what you can't do is then just completely alienate yourself from all financial results because that that would not build a 100-year long-term sustainable business. I think by definition to be a long-term 100red-year business, you have to be profitable because profitability allows you to invest in the long term of the business, but it also insulates you from all of the inevitable macroeconomic surprises that will come up. But in the in the in that infinite-minded hundredyear mindset and based on the advice or or the question from your grandfather, so long as you're building the business the way you want to build it, so long as you're following your values, you're sticking to your core, so long as that purity remains, if you miss that projection, but everything's going in the right direction, you're not angry. You're fine. As long as we can continue to fund our own growth, build the business. Yeah. I wouldn't. So if the profitability, so when your granddad says, "Did you make money?" and you say yes to some degree you are okay with that I'm happy yeah the going back to um there's a I don't want to call it an irreverence because I don't think it is irreverent there's an honesty that I see on the walls here I mean um I always think a lot of companies waste space in their offices because they have all this magical space and they don't use they don't remind everybody why they're here all over your office that remind people why they're here both your values and just these nice sort of reminders But they're not they're not sweet, you know. Um they're reminding people, take care of the people in the gym, you know. Uh one of them says, "Give a shit." It's one of your values. It's just very honest. And it's written, it's no asterises. It says, "Give a on the wall." In fact, right behind us, I love this one right behind us. You can't see it. It says on the wall, it's the only thing written on the wall in big letters, says, "Don't be a dickhead." Mhm. Um, and it's reminding everybody like this is how you show up at work. I mean, this is their office and it says don't be a Yeah. Like where does that come from? Uh, because a lot of people I think they say those words but they would never write them on the wall. Yeah. I there's a few things for So we So we there's four things that we sort of build ourselves around when it comes to our values and the way that we work. One is hard work. And again going back to the gym. Yeah. going back to the gym, going back to what it's like building a business where you know it is it's incredibly hard work and to build a business in the way that we want to it is hard work and I think it's important to recognize that one team again go back to what you said on the on the in terms of what it says on the wall one team is really really important that's not your function that's not your department that's the entire business um we've got community first as well everything that we do is all around serving our community that's the most important thing the reason that we build product the reason that we build events the reason that we build the brand is to serve the customer and the community in the same way that I was you know you know when I was a kid and I first joined the gym that that's what Gym Shark's there for. Um and then humility as well. Humility is really really important because I think humility then allows us to be always learning and again us getting to where we are today has been because of so many failures and things that you know we haven't always been focused on building a 100redy year brand whereas now we really are and I think it takes that humility to recognize when you're not going in the right direction in order to get yourself can you tell me a specific story where when you look back now you're like we I don't know what I was thinking and I would never make that decision now and are you able to look back and say, "Here's why I made that incredibly bad decision." Oh god, he had loads. Give me Give me one specific one that if you look back now, it's a little bit embarrassing that you chose it and you were so confident in that choice in the moment, but it was misdirected for all the wrong reasons. I'm trying to think one that wouldn't be. So, we've made loads of sort of operational mistakes. I So, I'll give you I'll I'll give you a good one. And this is probably more specific to being a British business. So most of our most of our business most of our customers in the United States and we've had incredible growth in the US and I'm so lucky right since the business started since I was in my late teens early 20s I've been going to the US constantly and I absolutely love it there and I feel so lucky every time I'm there and there was a period about five or six years ago where everyone said if you want to win in the US you've got to open up an office out in the US and you've got to give give the US that freedom to run the brand in the way that they think is right to grow in the US which I think to a degree is right but obviously me being probably more higher propensity to risk as an entrepreneur I was like yeah let's do it on let's open up the office let's build the team let's give them the freedom and they can just run with it and I made a few hires that were wrong I I've hired people that had come from bigger businesses that maybe weren't as attuned to the entrepreneurial way that I thought that we wanted to to build and then we started to go into like what we said earlier, sportsware and all of these different things and all of a sudden the product then looked very different. The brand looked very different and there was a point where I remember me and null who's our chief of brand. We went to the US and null put on the screen and he said this is Gym Shark in the UK and I looked at it and I thought wow it looks great that's Gym Shark through and through bodybuilding lifting weights and you know people in the gym and then he went this is Gym Shark in the US and it was a guy uh he was playing football and he just didn't look like Gym Shark to me almost looked like Nike with the Gym Shark logo on what we'd done is I'd given far too much freedom for essentially the American team to build out the the business in a way that they thought was relevant in the market. And I felt so bad cuz I thought I've just completely done this wrong. And what we've actually learned is a real centralized control of brand in particular and products globally because our brand and product needs to be relevant globally, not different in different markets with a more nuance sort of uh commercial approach. So in the US, you know, we we're probably going to open up more stores as an example, whereas in the UK, we'll be more e-commerce focused because it's a far smaller country and pretty much everywhere in the UK, you get next day delivery. So we're not we don't need as many stores. And I'd done it the wrong way around. I'd been tight on the commercial approach and then I've been really open on the go to market brand and it meant that the brand looked completely different. And basically what we had to do was completely relook at the entire office. We actually ended up moving the office to New York and we just completely started again. We probably lost 18 to 24 months just because of that mistake. and I'd just been I just hadn't thought it through enough. And I think again with the learning for me there is given how important the brand is to a business like ours to be so relaxed about it was such a huge mistake. Are there entrepreneurs now that you sort of I won't say model yourself after but you look to and be like I I I you know formal and informal mentors. Well, always obviously my granddad. My granddad when he started his business, he he basically had to risk everything and he had two kids, my mom and uh her sister her sister has um my auntie has learning difficulties, so there's a level of cost with her care. Uh my granddad was working in factories, BSA factories in the Midlands and things like that. So, he took a massive risk to start his business. It was actually that it was hearing as a kid about the risks that he took that made it so easy for me to start businesses when I was a kid because he was telling me about all these massive risks and he had to look after my nan and the kids and when I'm 18 and I didn't have to take I had no one that I had to worry about really other than myself that made it that really made me realize the opportunity I had to take risks. So I definitely learned sort of risk takingaking from him. Obviously my parents have been I've got inc I've got such an amazing family. My mom and dad are incredible as well and I learned so much from them. My mom worked in the NHS her entire life. One of the most hardworking national healthcare. So she's she was a a nurse coronary care so a heart nurse. Again my dad incredibly hardworking and incredibly just mental strength like nothing I've ever seen before. Um but then in more in terms of industry um so there's a guy who lives in London called Ajars Ahmed and he actually founded a company called AKQA which is a basically was a big marketing agency. He's um he's since started another agency since and I learned a lot from him and he's so brand first. What did you learn from him? I learned I remember we um we were doing our first ever restructure of the business. And I remember it was killing me. It was absolutely killing me. the thought of um people losing their jobs and having to restructure our business in and it was the right decision in the more appropriate way for the the sort of postcoid market that it was at the time. And I remember we went out for food one day and I was like, Jars, I like come on, help me out here. Have you ever done this before? And he he and he's the kindest bloke you'll ever meet. And he just gave me some advice and he said just just make sure that you do things in the right way, you know, just make sure you do it in the right way. Um, and he actually told me that he'd done a similar thing earlier in his career and it was the best thing that he'd ever done and it really helped his business then to grow because the way that he described it to me was around your business needs to move as quickly as the market and you're in a market that's constantly moving. If you're slower than the market, then obviously things are going to get away from you and you won't be able to effectively serve your consumer. And he also was constantly talking about building long-term brands. Being in an agency role, he's seen great brands, he's seen not great brands. Um, and he sort of really has an enthusiasm for brand that a lot of people don't and I think a respect for brand that a lot of people don't. So speaking to him and learning about pushing through the hard times, doing things in the right way and really focusing on the long term was really important to me. Um, so I definitely learned a lot from Ajars. Um, Harley and Toby at Shopify, I haven't seen them in a in a while, but again just listening to the way that they think about business is incredible. What did you learn from them? I learn it was really funny actually. So years and years ago they did a competition and we won the competition cuz we were one of the faster growing businesses on Shopify particularly in the early days and they flew us out to New York to see the stock exchange. That was the first ever media training I had. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. And then we went out to Fiji um and we were sat around loads of incredibly successful entrepreneurs. Obviously Toby and Harley were there. There was um Tony Robbins and there was a handful of other people. Um, there was the guy from Airbnb. There was uh Tim Ferris I think was there. And I'm just sat looking at all these people thinking I've seen you on like YouTube on the internet, but I can't believe I'm seeing you in real life. And then I wasn't really saying anything. I was just listening. And then um I think someone said someone said, "Oh, have you got was talking to someone else?" And they were like, "Oh, do you have a plan for that?" And he said, "No, I'm just winging it." And then someone else went, "Yeah, I'm just winging it, too." And I remember looking around thinking, "You guys are running businesses that are probably bigger than our business will ever be. And if you're just winging it, then that makes me feel so much better about myself cuz I feel like I'm just winging it. And I'm just looking at all these people. And I had this moment of realization thinking, if you're winging it, I'm probably always going to be winging it. And then it made me realize that I don't have to feel like I've always got everything together. There was a recognition around the table that everyone's doing a lot of things for the first time. And there's a level of comfort that then that gave me that I don't always have to have everything together. I can explore new ideas and I can fail at things and it's not defining of me or nor the business and then we can equally when you do succeed that's not defining it doesn't mean you're always going to be successful. There's this real nice feeling I had where it was almost like pressure off from this moment. I'm doing a lot of things for the first time and I'm just going to try my best to do it right and I'm going to build a business that I'm proud of. As you're talking about it, you know, I'm realizing there's two types of winging it. M and this is and again I'm going to sound like a broken record which is there's a reason I admire the purity of your business which is it is a the foundation is so strong the values are so strong the clarity of who we are what we do and who we serve is so strong that I think when you have strong foundation strong values then you can wing it because it's based on it's not it's based on something down here quicksand you know it's based on something down here and so you you're making these decisions but it's coming it's born out of something and there's a and there's a code that's guiding those reactive decisions, right? Companies that I think are winging it based on market opportunity, pressure from investors, they're still winging it, but it's not stuck to anything. There's no code, there's no values, and those are the ones who are chasing market share, chasing trends, and they may have little spikes and little short-term successes. They may, you know, you throw an spaghetti against the wall, some of it does stick. and and and that may even propel them to be viewed as quote unquote successful because they they won a lottery on one of those guesses, but it's not sustainable. Yeah. You know, you look at a lot of companies that were on the covers of magazines that barely exist anymore. Yeah. You know, and they've all been on the covers of all the magazines. Um, so I think there's two types of winging it, you know. There's winging it based on based on values and based on knowing who you are. And there's winging it taking your cues not on on that purity of our customer and ourselves but winging it based on true based on an investor or some some market trend that you're chasing. Cuz when you were winging it and chasing swimming and hiking that was externally. Yeah. You know it was now when we really it's funny uh my my mom went to we got a shop in London on Regent Street. brother took my mom to the shop a few months ago and they he said they got to the end the mom went um do you know what Joe I'm not I'm not really a fan a lot of the product that you're making at the moment and Joe went too right you're 50 some 50s something years old and you've never you haven't been to the gym in 20 years and it was a bit it was a bit of a funny moment where he sort of told my mom and it was like that that that's right you know our customer goes to the gym all the time they're in their early 20s and they want to wear product to show off their physique. We're not building product for my 55year-old mom who was a nurse in Celio, do you know what I mean? So, it was quite that was quite a funny moment. I was quite proud of him because it was a bit like, yeah, this is this is who we are and this is what we stand for. And I know that's a, you know, a funny sort of extreme example, but that that's that's what we have to continue. You know, there's there's an irony in your brand. And the irony is is a lot of your clothes, as you said, are made to show off. Mhm. Like your t-shirt that you said that's physique accentuated. Physique accentuated. It's tight. Let me show you the result of all my my hard work. Yeah. You know, I I've I've bought your stuff and sized up because it's too tight. Uh but that's what it's supposed to be. Um uh you know, you can degrees of how much your bum you want accentuated. You know, I I mean, like, it's all about showing off the hard work, but as a company, you're not a showoff company. Reconcile that your products are for showing off, but you don't like showing off. You're the opposite. You're totally humble and sort of on a journey and know you have more to learn, etc. Yeah, I don't I think well, we have product, right? We have the oversized products as well that you could just sort of throw on and you can wear in the winter months where you're just trying to build up your physique, but no, I don't know. I don't know. I think if I had to guess, yeah, if I had to guess, I think it goes right back to why you like the gym, which is, and you said it right at the beginning of this interview, which is if I do hard work, I will see the results of my hard work. Yeah. And I think if somebody's going to spend the time to go to the gym and put in that effort, part of the reward is being able to see Yeah. what I've done. Yeah. And the best way to see it is with a naked is one way, but product but to wear a product that that you can see my hard work. Yeah. Cuz I mean it there aren't shortcuts. Yeah. But it's and it's great because we do these events. Um you should come to one at some point. It's we've got one we've got we've got a couple coming up. One in the UK, one in the US. and you go there and you'd expect everyone to be massive and shredded and bodybuilder but there all sorts of physiques and there's a recognition that if you're in the gym you're on the journey and everyone's on that journey together and I really really like that. It's just a really nice place to be and again it's great because that's what I grew up doing. I remember I remember I went to Body Power in Birmingham. It was the best it was I think it was the best fitness event in the world at in the sort of 2012 2013 time. I remember being so annoyed because I had to leave the event early to go to my shift at Pizza Hut sort of thing. But it was it was such an an inspiring event for me. So yeah, to be able to do this day in day out that was great. I mean the more we talk about this, the more I realized that your community I I when I started running or actually not even when I started, when I was a full-on runner, uh I would be running around Central Park. I'd be I'd run around Central Park, you know, whatever it was, three, four times a week. And there's something magical about runners, and I assume it's the same people for gym rats, which is I would run past someone who is not in shape. They are really struggling to go at a very, very slow pace, you know, and here we are, we're all, you know, fit and running fast and keeping our pace and all of this stuff. And I I remember and to this day, you run past them and you go, "Yeah, the level you lift your head, you're out here doing the work." And the thing that I loved about that community was nobody thought they were better than somebody else. We were some of us were in better shape and some of us were in lesser shape and you said different shapes, different sizes, but there was such respect that you're out here doing the work and you got a you got a head. I remember when I was huffing and puffing, some elite runner would walk past me and give me a head nod like and I loved that. The only other time I've seen that I I this is a funny I I worked out with uh the 82nd Airborne. I worked out with the the the the military, the army, and I remember we were up at the crack of it was still dark out and we're up we're in the in the car park doing uh press ups, doing push-ups, and it was like gravel. So, it's like unbelievably painful on your hands doing doing push-ups on a gravel. And we're like, do all this work. And I'm like, good workout, guys. It turns out that was the warm-up. And then we actually went and did the workout, which was a a circuit. And you we had to do the circuit a number of times. And what I found the the it was one of the best workouts of my life. And I'll tell you why which is absolutely we were all competing like when we were running guys were pushing hard, right? But nobody was competing against each other. They were competing against themselves, right? Like somebody who wanted to win, it's not because they wanted somebody else to lose. It's because they wanted to push themselves to be the fastest that day. But I remember guys would run past me and they tap me as they ran past me, keep it going, keep it going. And so even in competition, yeah, they were pushing and rooting for for the others. So again, it was pushing themselves. It was they were trying to they were competing against themselves. They weren't competing against each other. M and it was the most amazing experience with hyper a type competitive people that wouldn't gloat cuz they beat you. They would be proud cuz they won. There's a big difference. But they were pushing everybody else to to to to run harder, push harder, pull, you know, lift heavier. It was kind of amazing. But don't you think that's the sort of thing it would be nice to see more in general business as in people just trying to build the best business that they possibly can rather than constantly comparing to another business that is similar in one specific way but different in every other specific way because I often see a lot of that of of oh Jim Sh have a I don't know they're great at e-commerce or they've got a great social following and and I think so many people will come and ask me what you know how should I build my business I I think so much around you just need to build your business for you around what is important to you and around the you know your community and your customer rather than trying to build another version of Gym Shark. It goes it goes back to that foundation right you got to know who you are and what you stand for and then you build from there. I don't think you can build a hundred-year business trying to compete or beat somebody else. I think you can only build a hundred-year business trying to outdo yourselves. Yeah, I agree. What's your approach to managing your time so that you get the most out of your professional and personal life? Oh, this has changed. So, this has changed a lot since we had kids. So, before I would just work all the time and fly whenever, go anywhere at a moment's notice. Um, my wife said to me since we had kids, she was like, I want you home on the weekends. And it's really important to me that I am because I just love being with the kids and being at home with the family and and Robin. Um so within generally I'll be at home on the weekends and that again that's important for me to protect in the week I generally really try and focus my time around uh product and uh essentially the the direct sort of team that I I work with. Um I also just love going something I love to do more than anything is just to go to loads of different gyms. So if I'm in New York, I'll just try different gyms because you end up just chatting to people all the time and you end up learning something that you would never ever normally pick up. And again, quite fortunate now doing, I guess, doing the job I do because sort of people come up to me as often as I'll come up to them. But I absolutely love that. But no, generally I'll focus my time around obviously being in the office every day. I I am not the sort of person that I could ever could ever work from home. Um but generally it'll be around being with the team and and focusing on the product. And and when you're home on the weekends, you're not at home just working. You're at home with the family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would avoid work at all costs on the weekend if I can. Love. Um one of the things that's interesting is um uh you have on the wall uh family first is one of the values. What can people who are not running companies do to to have an impact on the world but still make sure that they're providing for their loved ones? Like how do you strike that balance? Because at some point one of those things has to get sacrificed. Yeah. Right. People who make an impact, as you said, aren't necessarily at home all the time. Yeah. How do you Well, I think what what can the rest of us do? Do you have to pick one? I mean, I don't know. I think the thing I I've noticed, and this is both with myself, but also with friends and colleagues, is if you do a job that you really, really enjoy, you genuinely enjoy, I think you'll often be better at it. And then I think you'll be happier happier in your general life. And even if you have to, there's periods, I think, where you have to work more. There's periods where you can probably get away with working a little bit less. And I know it sounds cliche, but I do think focusing on what you love. I've got friends that I've got a friend actually who moved on from here not too long ago. Uh he wor he was one of the first employees who worked here for about 10 years and he just sort of ran out of mojo. He sort of we were chatting he wasn't really enjoying the job as much as he was and he sort of wanted to be here because he always was but then he sort of didn't because there's a load of other things he wanted to he wanted to travel and he wanted to do work abroad and stuff and we were just sat there and we said um just go off and do it just go off and do it and you can always come back you know if you don't if you go off and you go and work in Spain for a bit and you don't like it you can always come back and and that's what he's done and he seems so happy he's loving it and it's it's really nice to see so it's it's an interesting thing for me whereas is the difference in him in making that decision. He's just like a different person. He seems so excited and happy and that, you know, I've got lots of other friends. And don't get me wrong, I'd rather have a lot of them have not left. I'd I'd much rather them just be with me and stay here cuz we're friends and I love being with them. Focusing on what they love is really important. And then there's people that have been here for 10, 11, 12 years, literally since day one that love it just as much, if not more than they did. And I think for me, doing what you love is really important. Um, I think that it's interesting because we and I have had some highs at this business that are incredible being the fastest growing company in the UK, some of the global events that we've done, some of the incredible things that we've done out in the US. Um, and they're genuinely incredible achievements I'm so proud of. But then when you get home and one of your kids runs up to you and gives you a massive hug and is happy that you're home, it trumps all of them. So I think it's also worth remembering that as well. Ben, it's such a treat for me to sit down with you. I could talk to you forever and you know this the second time we've hung out and I've learned from you more this time even than last time. Um I really really am rooting for you because I think how you're building your business is the way all businesses should be built from now on. Thank you. Thanks man. Appreciate it. So good. A bit of optimism is brought to you by the Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team, Lindseay Garbinius and Devon Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsynic.com. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. [Music]