hey carnivores welcome back to the channel it's me Bella the steak and butter gal I hope you all are having a meat fueled day in today's video I'll have the honor to invite on Dr leslin Keith to share her knowledge on lipedema lymphadema Obesity and fat disorders she'll be sharing her knowledge on what lymphadema and lip EMA are and telltale signs that you may have it she'll also be detailing her protocol and best tips on how to resolve it if you do struggle with it before I get started I do want to share that I am inviting Dr leslin Keith to the stick and butter gang Community as a guest speaker all members will be able to submit their questions for Dr Keith and she will answer and share her knowledge live in the community and as always the playback will be posted for the entire Community to enjoy and learn from anytime in addition to Dr leslin Keith I will also be inviting on Dr Anthony chaffy Dr Robert kiltz Dr Tony Hampton and Coach Rebecca heishman to visit the community and answer everybody's questions to not miss this fantastic lineup coming up make sure to join the next challenge at SBG meetup.com or check out the links down below for clickable links now without further Ado let me invite on Dr lesen Keith hi thanks for having me here it's so wonderful to be here with all of you I'm leslyn Keith I have a doctorate in occupational therapy and I focus on lymphatic disorders and I've been treating lymphatic disorders like lymphadema and lipedema for about 25 years and uh about oh about 2011 2012 I discovered uh ketogenic diets and started experimenting and my patients um started experimenting using it um to help their condition first just to try to help with obesity and and weight management but quickly started seeing how wow even if you don't have weight to lose or you're trying to manage your weight it seemed to have an impact on lymphatic Disorder so um I'm just so excited about this way of eating and what it can mean for health for those who are not familiar with the terms lymphadema and lipedema what does it mean and how do you detect if you have it ah excellent questions um and uh I first got exposed to lymphadema when I was doing an internship for occupational therapy and my uh Mentor Supervisor was treating lymphadema and I just fascinated me um what the treatment was and how spectacular it it worked for the condition so lymphadema is a lymphatic disorder where um the fluid is not able to get out of a body area because either because the lymphatic vessels were not perfectly formed from birth or um there was damage to them later in life and the most common reason that there's damage to uh the lymphatics is surgery for cancer and um also radiation treatments for cancer treatment so quite often they're removing lymph nodes you may have heard for instance like for breast cancer treatment they remove the lymph nodes under your um armpit on the side of the breast cancer and unfortunately that's the place where the um lymphatic fluid from the breast and from the arm all drain and so you remove some of those nodes and now it doesn't drain as well and so you start getting this backup of fluid and so this treatment was developed boy back in the 1930s and 40s to manage that swelling that would happen because of well various reasons like I said you could be born with it or you have damage later and so um I first got exposed to that treatment in my internship and um you do a a specialized type of massage you wrap the body area with compression bandages you do some certain exercises um and there's really meticulous skin care because you're at risk for infection so you do this overall program and it just was such a objective black and white difference their arm was this big and now you finish and it's this big and it matches the other side and I I like these black and white things I'm tend to be left-brained and I like to see these very objective results and so I thought this is the treatment for me and so I started getting into that um and treating that when I got certified in training and on how to treat lymphad we also talked about lipedema and lipedema is you kind of end up in the same place as lymphodema but it starts from a different place and so lipidemia is starts out more as a fat disorder we have this uh excessive fat deposition almost exclusively in women and to their lower body mostly but it can also occur in the arms and so it's like this waist to ankles presentation of a very um uneven distribution it's like you have two body um it's the upper body seems much smaller than a lower body um and unless there's also obesity present they have a very narrow waist and the problem is this is not just aesthetic these women have uh sometimes very very intense pain in the areas that have the the diseased fat um they bruise easily um they re their Mobility gets reduced sometimes from just a reduction in U muscle mass but also because of the F the pain and the large amount of adapost tissue um so they get all these other things that happen because of that and then the lymphatics fail because of probably because of this excessive adapost tissue so now you've got this all this fat plus the swelling from lymphatics not clearing out interestingly in lymphad there's something that happens when we have that fluid collecting in a body area it causes the proliferation of fat and so both of these conditions have excessive fat and fluid but they come at it from a different place you mentioned that you've been using the ketogenic diet to help your patients with lymphadema and lipedema I love to know what benefits you've seen with your experience sure so at first I was was just trying to help my patients who um were had obesity and they they had weight to lose because there was a prevailing um thought in the lymphology community that um obesity can cause lymphadema um and there is some uh some evidence for that that that that excessive fat can cause this lymphatic failure and so I thought well we reduce um the the weight and then the lymphatics start functioning better and then the lymphadema improves and so first I was using it myself all my friends couple of my family members we started using it and um we felt great and had lots of energy and um lost a little bit of weight and so I started presenting it to my patients and the ones who were willing to try it um whether they need to lose weight or not it it had a good response so at this same time another uh person was writing a book about nutrition for um lymphadema and lipedema and he showed me the draft copy of it and it was promoting the typical recommendations of a plant-based diet um low fat low calorie and this would help and I started thinking I'm not so sure that would help and I think we need something different than just what we've always done for the last 100 years and so I decided to get my doctorate so I could run a study to see the impact that a ketogenic diet would have on people who had lymphadema as well as obesity um and so and and the effects were pretty astounding in my it was just a little pilot study with with 10 patients um six of whom decided to adopt the diet and four who didn't and the four who didn't you know they were my patients I had treated them before and they were so apologetic they said wlim I think I've ruined your study I didn't do the diet I said no actually it shows the difference um you know I I would like for you to be able to adopt it eventually because it's going to help you so much but it really showed the difference and so I measured things like U pain um ability to perform your activities of daily living um uh I measured um just there is this one scale that is the lymphatic uh lymphadema life impact scale the impact that lymphadema has on your life um so I measured that I measured the size of their limbs I measured their weight and I also did body composition so I think you can probably guess who had the better results in all of those categories every single one the people who use the diet albeit very small groups six and four but the people who use the diet um had less pain uh their life was their bet quality of life was dramatically improved they had lower weight their body composition was they had lower percent body fat so all these things you can guess happened in that group and overall if I just average the results of everybody it has significant results um by participating in in um these uh lifestyle um changes that included a ketogenic diet um but as I said in my paper when I published the paper of my results I said the those results were driven by how much the the people who use the diet improved so um I I was pretty excited about that and then just started really promoting it with all my patience and I started speaking about it in conferences so interesting that you know when I first started talking about it in 2014 um I was only the only one in the lymphology field who's talking about it and they all looked at me like I was crazy they say yeah sure sure eating this way is going to um help or they would say oh it might help with lymphadema and wait but they're going to die of a heart attack you know it's going to be terrible on their cardiovascular system and so I'm the only one talking about it well unknown to me um a practitioner of an D in Germany had already been using this way of eating for her patients with lipedema and lipedema besides the picture that I just described to you lipedema was known for the last 80 years since it was discovered in 1940 that it was unresponsive to diet and exercise well we know that exercise doesn't have a huge impact on weight loss all was good but diet especially they were talking about using a low calorie low fat um plant-based diet well of course it wasn't responsive to that way of eating um sometimes obesity is respons to that but lipidemia absolutely not and so this doctor in Germany had been using it she had besides her MD she also had a degree in nutrition she started using ketogenic nutrition with all of her lipedema patients the first thing she found was in with just a couple of weeks the pain was gone before you're losing any weight the pain was gone and um what the general Community had assumed was that the enormous amount of fat tissue was causing the pain you haven't lost any weight in two weeks so it was more than that this was an inflammatory condition that once we were able to reduce the inflammation the pain was you know um dramatically reduced or even resolved and so she started seeing well what can it do for then the rest of all the the other symptoms the easy bruising the excessive fat tissue everything else that was happening and she was of course getting spectacular results so what I saw happen probably starting in about 2019 is that all of these people around the world uh researchers around the world started doing research specifically on lipidemia um to see the impact of this way of eating on the symptoms of lipidemia and now there's probably been at least half a dozen clinical trials case reports and and other types of research that are in the the published peerreview literature it's not so much with lymphadema interestingly because we have an animal model for lymphadema we can induce it in for instance mice and so because it's perceived as a dangerous way to eat maybe we should test it on mice before we really test it on people with lymphadema and so there's been much more animal research on a ketogenic diet with lymphadema only well mine and one other study with humans human subjects on lymphadema but we have this huge you know growing body of evidence on actual people with lip EMA and the effect that it's having and uh it's and now I'm not the only one talking about it I'm so thrilled that I can go to a conference and other people are saying something about it and so it's not just this wacky leslin that is saying that this might be a good way to eat you all can meet do leslin Keith and ask her your personal questions by joining the next steak andb butter gang Carnival challenge she will be visiting the community as a guest speaker so all the members will be able to learn from her directly to not miss the next challenge featuring Dr Keith Dr Anthony chacy Dr Robert kiltz Dr Tony Hampton and Coach Rebecca heishman make sure you visit the URL shown on the screen SBG meetup.com I've also linked clickable links Down Below in the description box yeah so I wanted to ask how long was your study that you've uh done it was 12 weeks so um and it was actually a a full lifestyle program that I did um where I had um besides introducing ketogenic diet we talked about exercise sleep uh Stress Management other um lifestyle changes that can um help improve just overall health and I'm hoping also with with the lymphatics and um I would say that the number one biggest change that people had to induce in themselves was changing their their diet you know this was pretty radical change um the next biggest change was exercise they might not have been moving very much and so maybe they moved a little bit more through that 12 weeks um and sleep and Stress Management you know they learned some good stuff about that but may not have implemented those changes so much so I really see as the biggest driver of what happened in that small 12we pilot study was um those six people that that changed their their way of eating um that really drove that and so I I developed an entire program based on what we did and um I I still firmly believe that you got to change your diet first I'm not going to tell somebody to exercise and move when they're in so much pain when they are when they have such a large size that they can't move nicely um and and comfortably and so let's let's reduce the pain and maybe reduce the percent body fat and get you more comfortable then we'll bring on the exercise but we can definitely bring on other things like you know Stress Management and and helping to improve sleep and stuff like that we can do those things but I'm not asking people to exercise it's a failure you know right when we start you know if they they feel like they failed because they can't exercise but once that pain goes away they're going to start moving more I love the part that you said that you've noticed that before people even lose weight their pain goes away so to me is it really about weight loss it's more about pain removal as far as I'm concerned and we've seen that over and over in the carnivore diet that yes people's pain go away and their weight doesn't necessarily budge some even gain weight and and I do think that um and and when we have our lymphatics working better and when I see that water loss and that volume loss in that first couple weeks I feel like the lymphatic system which is one of his jobs is that waste removal I feel like it's it's removed those inflammatory particles it's made the interstitium and that tissue healthier that has is a huge impact on that um that pain reduction so we're just we're helping the the body and the tissue become healthier because the lymphatics are working so much better before anything else happens I've noticed in myself I carry lots of weight in the lower body used to have pain with that lost enough weight that I don't have pain in those areas anymore but the the structure of the fat the fat looks different and we've kind of seen this in our community that sometimes carnivore even if it's weight gain it looks really different so I hear what you're saying that the Matrix there's almost something that changes with the Matrix that that really changes the nature of that Emily previously having a pain I would say you probably have lipid Dema but very very well-managed lipedema it's just a spectacular result um and you did you of course you've lose lost something overall but your body is much more proportionate and you don't have that pain I mean this is just a spectacular result well done thank you painfree feeling great carnivore and fasting for the we have a Facebook group for the people with lipedema that are are doing this way of eating and she submitted this before and after picture I think it was only maybe 30 days difference before for before and after there was a noticeable size difference zero pounds lost but the size was different and so uh you know so those things that decrease pain and and the volume difference um a lot of times will happen before um there's any weight change and are we are we losing body fat and we're gaining uh lean mass um you know so that therefore you know we feel so much better um the size is different but the weight is is the same or even as you say Raymond that it's been increased if you're not doing um you know body composition scales and all these other things to measure you're not really sure but if things are better why not continue even if I don't know why it happened you know can you speak to cellulite this feels like it's on topic with uh body composition coming around what can what can we learn about that yeah and I think for um years and even now um lip Adema can be confused with cellulite um one issue is that um women tend to get fat in that gynoid presentation in that lower body um and uh but it's it's not typically painful uh waking in that lower body but that kind of a dimpling type fat that we associate with cellulite can look just like lipedema and so um but if there isn't pain then we're say okay this is some type of lipo distrophy or cellulite it's not necessarily liida but because we're finding that the ketogenic diet um is so beneficial for um lipedema to reduce the pain we are now um changing the definition of that case definition of ladema to be current or historical presence of pain because many women have figured out how to use diet to help control that pain and it doesn't mean that you don't have lipedema because as you say it's it still can be even with the use of the diet you could still have some as symmetry between your upper and lower body it's like you just still have that lipidemia shape it's just smaller your symptoms are are are reduced but they're not totally gone um so I would say um that you still have lipidemia but well-managed lipedema well Emily since I have this photo and I'll put it as an overlay when I edit it can you just give a brief recap of what you did like what were the major changes that you did to get these results my initial was uh ketogenic with fasting so I think I got it got it right off the start I had read Dr Fun's book and had combined those two and I actually was doing extended fasting during that period of time and so I had lost my first 100 pounds in that manner and then um I switched 2021 I went 100% carnivore but still had intermittent fasting started doing uh quarter fast alternate day fasting and uh high fat I was very high fat and I was going to uh when I ate just high fat carnivore I did want to touch on that too about you know your thoughts on dietary fat and whether that was you know what place that had in this journey so yeah I did a feasting and fasting protocol with Bella and Raymond and uh that what that's what finished me out and got me the final results was combining a high fat carnivore with fasting as you're a coach Emily um you're you'll be able to identify the these women who you suspect have lipedema and you know using your own experience to help them because women tend to gravitate towards a plant-based diet and um you know talking to someone who has that life experience can help them at least adopt more animal sourced eating even if they won't go totally carnivore I I feel like you you're such a huge Boon to the community and that's what that's what I love doing is providing support and our community has done that and so so many women and men are really suffering with the LI lipidemia issu so I love that you know you're going to be helping us navigate that so let me speak to what you're saying about fat um and uh definitely we were finding great results with keto and then specifically with lipedema and I think we're going to see with lymphadema as well going carnivore and the more and more animal Source foods that that someone was eating seem to help even more people would kind of be at a stall they'd have an initial response that was really wonderful if start feeling better but then you know couldn't seem to get you know reach their goals of what they wanted to do so many of them is are really looking more just at at the number on the scale and not all those other non-scale victories but um that is one of their goals until we we try to help with that as much as we can and it seemed to be carnivore seemed to be the answer and so I have my own Theory I about that and and one of uh it's it's the lymphatic involvement in the issue um because that pooling of lymphatic fluid seems to cause a proliferation of the adapost tissue and so if we can get the lymphatics functioning better then we can 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screen thrivemarket.com Stak and butter gal I've also linked them down below and I discovered two things through animal research research was showing that a high fructose diet specifically fructose seemed to cause inflammation in the lymphatic vessels meaning that they were so swollen that the the Lumen the opening in those vessels was reduced and the transport capacity in some cases was reduced as much as 50% so now if you already have an impairment to your lymphatic system and now you reduce that ability to drain the fluid of course you're going to get U more fluid collecting um and this was um demonstrated with humans they weren't trying to demonstrate it but they were looking at women who had breast cancer related lymphadema in their arm and they said let's look at the impact of exercise and a weight loss diet on the lymphadema and the arm and so the weight loss diet that they chose was can I say a brand name it was a meal replacement that they were using and and the number one or the number two ingredient was fructose high fructose corn syrup oh like a liquid diet like a slim fast or drinking they're drinking yeah yeah yeah I'm try not to say a name but so this was what they were using so it was end up being they were having a a a high plant content diet so fruits and vegetables and then drinking this high fructose thing and so it the calories were down the fat content was down and then they were exercising all of the women lost weight but their arm swelling did not go down wow that's telling yes and every other study that they had done previously to this of just maybe even using a plant-based low calorie lowfat diet but no high fructose thing stuck in there um they lost weight and then the arm size would go down this one it didn't and they were confused they said we don't know why this happened and they happened to present their results at a conference the lymphadema conference and I was speaking after them and I go oh I think I know what happened and I'm sure they weren't pleased with me but I said at the U my presentation I added on a little thing I said I think this might have happened since we know that high fructose causes those lymphatic vessels to swell even though they lost weight they couldn't get the fluid out of their arms and so so my first thing to is to say that carbs are inflammatory and plants are carbs okay okay so the more we reduce our our carbs we're going to be have less inflammation means reduce pain and better flowing of the of the lymphatic vessels and so then but the other thing is wow animal research anyhow seems to show that fat fuels the lymphatics and so there was several pieces of research that helped me put this together but um one was that the lymphatics are specifically what gets the longchain fatty acids from your gut and travels through the lymphatic vessels to the the blood circulation you can't get those long chain fatty acids otherwise the medium chain the short chain go directly to the liver through the the portal vein but everything else and most of the fats we eat are long chain so we're going to be have a deficiency in our fatty acids if we don't have that functioning lymphatic system and so interestingly um when they did a research with they said well let's give the lymphatics a break and let's not feed the person any longchain fatty acids um so we're only going to give them medium chain fatty acids you know like a coconut oil and um you can get MCT oil and stuff like that and so they did this pretty short interval I think maybe a week of intervenous seaing of just that type of fat and then they were measuring what was the fat content of a lymphatic system uh pre and post using this way of diet post using MCT only there was now MCT fats in the lymphatic fluid it said I'm desperate I got to have some kind of fat and so normally it wouldn't take any of those fats but it did but not only that on again on animals and now a recent study out of Belgium with humans is that they're showing that there's new vessel formation when we have we increase the ketones and fatty acids in the diet so um in this uh study that just was completed in in Belgium with people with lymphadema they did actually Imaging of the um the lymphatics and they showed new vessel formation you can imagine if someone has an impairment say in this area from their breast cancer if you have new vessels that help get the fluid out that's going to dramatically improve your your lymphadema that's what they saw on animals what they saw was that even if if you had ketones and uh and fatty acids and glucose present the lymphatic endothelial cells went after the ketones it had a natural pref preference for that so um I to me it sounds like this is a way of eating that yes wonderful it manages your way but it is so much more important to to your health and one of the body systems it helps with is a lymphatic system it just operates better with low carb high fat I am so motivated when you say that because we know that about the brain about the heart we know that about you know certain organs and tissues that you know how great they do off of ketones and so I'm just going to add that to my list and the lymphatic system because you said so right and you know it's everywhere now we've we've discovered the lymphatic system in the brain so um that's also helping with that and the lymphatic system works in the brain mostly when we're asleep so Emily when you're helping your patients improve their sleep because of the way they're eating now the lymphatic system can clean out the brain remove those inflammatory particles that lead to dementias and neurodegenerative conditions they are are doing better because their lymphatics are working better but Emily you asked about you know what do you think about high fat and this is you know it's a Nuance on what we're trying to figure out is is and uh what we want to recommend for lymphadema and lipedema and it seems to be very individual because some people work better on if you're going to be carnivore um work better on high protein others work better on high fat it seems like people with obesity well I guess they could do both as well um it because it seems like people with obesity a lot of times they don't have to eat high fat um in order to meet their goals for reducing the percent body fat and and losing weight um because now they can access their body stores of fat and that is the fat part of their diet but um I guess it depends on what of their comorbidities that they have because there are definite cases where people tend to work do better with a higher protein um and not so much high fat um there was a wonderful article was talking about you know what this way of eating that we discovered that use is good for controlling seizures may not be necessarily the the macros that we want to use for various other conditions and so there's tweaking that has to be done which is done by you guys the coaches it helps people figure out um where you know once they've got the general um idea of the diet and enjoying it and and getting some benefits now you guys have to help them figure out what is going to be that particular Nuance that's going to benefit them the most and what's going on with them you all can meet Dr leslin Keith and ask her your personal questions by joining the next steak andb butter gang Carnival challenge she will be visiting the community as a guest speaker so all the members will be able to learn from her directly to not miss the next challenge featuring Dr leslin Keith Dr Anthony cha Dr Robert kiltz Dr Tony Hampton and Coach Rebecca heishman make sure you visit the URL shown on the screen SBG meetup.com I've also linked clickable links Down Below in the description box really enjoyed your talk um it seems like I have three things I'd like to discuss with you the first is um it seems looking at your articles that are published on public Med that um you've kind of started out thinking lymphodema obesities Association and in a sleep apnea we have the same Association of sleep obstructive sleep apnea and obesity but when you really look at it it sounds like your framework is moving towards reduction of inflammation as a bigger mechanism than the Obesity itself and we're seeing that in the sleep apnea literature too and they're starting to measure some very unique inflammatory markers that are elevated in people with a struct instructive sleep apnea that as those markers go away the symptoms go away irrespective of what happens to the weight so are you familiar with any markers that are associated with people with with lymphadema especially that are being measured you're absolutely right that that my initial way of looking at this web of eating was you know from Gary to's book why we get fat and having you know 70% of my um uh patients have not only lymphadema but also obesity and so I was initially just looking at how can I help them lose weight but it's definitely morphed into more of this healthy situation and I do believe just as you're talking about sleep apnea that it's people thought okay you lose weight and you have less pressure on your neck and then that's what does it no I think it is as you say a reduction in inflammation that has that impact I have sleep AP myself I'm 6'2 and 165 pounds I don't that it's not caused by obesity and my sleep doctor was telling me that no that the majority of my patients they do not have obesity related uh sleep apnea this is something different that is happening here and so I do think that more than just the lymphatic Community but in general people are saying that okay these different conditions that have been associated with obesity is is more to do with the inflammation from obesity and not from the excessive fat tissue of excessive weight well it's interesting in the female population since 2006 the um sleep apnea literature has noted that the ratio of men to females with sleep apnea has actually reversed and there are more women developing obstructive sleep apnea than men and I think it may be very much related to veganism and the adop just gonna say that of plant-based diets uh that's being perpetuated among women and I think it needs to be studied um they found tumor necrosis factor in incon 2 as being the two that were in obstructive sleep apnea but it's interesting that the literature hasn't the published literature hasn't really caught up with that yet yes um your 2017 article that you wrote um and by the way I enjoyed your articles on Pub so thanks for contributing to the published literature that's peer review literature is very important I'm really glad that you pursued your doctorate so you could could do that but uh um I think it's really important so the other thing is um one thing I spent a lot of time I was a surgical PA before I went to medical school and we talked a lot about um um mastectomy induced lymphadema the upper extremity um and the ultimate complication of that is steuart Trevy uh ngio saroma which is a very very bad malignancy that I've only seen once in my career but I that to me also tells me that it's an inflammatory condition because we see a lot of cancers progress from obstruction to inflam to hyperplasia to dysplasia to malignancy and saroma is a soft tissue malignancy that we hardly ever see in an upper extremity except in women who have had mastectomy been so some people don't realize that this can actually be a fatal condition not appropriately treating the lymphadema so I just want to make that comment that this is very serious and we should be t Ling lymphadema with diet whenever possible I think there's a difference between surgical induced lymphadema with and radiation induced which are physical removal or a either removal or at treia which means shrinkage from the radiation is scarring down but the typical lymphadema we see in the carnivore Community is more of a um physiologic or pathophysiologic edema and the interesting thing is as you know all the lymphatics from the lower extremities have to go through the abdomen and chest to the thoracic duct to actually drain into the circulation and those fatty longchain fatty acids to be utilized and um we're seeing incredible results of people using vibration plates yes which I think is adding kinetic energy to the process mhm to serve as a mechanical pump to break up the sludge in the in the lymphatics in the intraabdominal and intrathoracic areas to move the lymphatics along and I I did know if you've come across any Associated studies where everyone's looking at that but we've certainly seen a lot of the pain go away with L lymphatic addressed uh plugs lymphatics addressed with vibratory kinetic and there definitely has been there's been some papers on that um more with the lipedema than lymphadema but both there is some papers on that a new theory that I've been talking with uh some of my colleagues with is that it actually there's U microc clotting in the lymphatics this it's not something that just happens in the blood it could also happen in the lymphatics besides reducing the the any fibrosis that may be in the tissue if feel that maybe the vibration helps with that U micr clotting that's happening in lymphatics and diet would also help with the microc clotting you know maybe we're getting this uh improved flow not Al not only from the health of the the anatomy of the lymphatic system but also with the the content of the lymphatic fluid itself well I I think it's interesting your comments about fructose because I really believe that the high fructose corn syrup which has become the preferred sweetener us food manufacturing yes uh and we know fructose is highly glycogenated of our proteins in our body it makes perfect sense that high fructose diets do not help this condition which again puts this in the inflammatory glycosilation yes process I'm I'm intrigued with your work and keep keep up the good work thank you yes I I intend to keep going reading a whole book or um trying trying to tease out the the language that seems to be in peer review papers is beyond them you know and maybe they'll read the abstract but and the conclusion but nothing else so you guys are are really providing wonderful service thank you so much Dr Keith for your time today I relate to you when you were sharing about cancer my mom actually passed away nine years ago this July uh from breast cancer she had stage four metastatic breast cancer and part of the treatment protocol was to remove her lymph nodes from her underarms and I remember she had the compression sleeves uh she had severe severe lymphadema like she would have to keep her arm up over her head she would always ask me to massage the arm because I was trained in Swedish lymphatic drainage and they promoted uh juicing that was like the big thing and I noticed and I wish I would have put two and two together back then but I noticed every time she would juice she her swelling would get worse her pain would get worse she wouldn't be able to sleep at night for obvious reasons when you're juicing fruits and veg what what is happening but I wanted to ask you the question for anyone who may have missed it do you think it's to a person's benefit or to their detriment that they're removing these lymph nodes as a part of a cancer treatment protocol it's certainly um as far as lymphadema is concerned once they adopted The Sentinel no biopsy and remove fewer nodes it certainly helped um and and but there are some cancers that they always metastasize to the nodes and you can't just take a couple but specifically on breast cancer um they just wanted to see did the cancer metastasize did it go outside of the tumor and then that can direct us on whether or not we need to do something like chemotherapy now the whole standard approach to cancer that's a whole other uh discussion um I'm really not in favor of uh um radiation therapy and chemotherapy but um a lot of people do engage in in that standard care for cancer and you know they it does seem to at least in the short term so I think that you know just by removing fewer nodes that is a help but we we know that there's such a variety in how many nodes you're born with and what we couldn't understand is why did this person who had Sentinal node biopsy one to five nodes removed why did they still get lymphadema they had no radiation treatments they just had those nodes removed why did they still get lymphadema well it could be diet and inflammation related but it also might be that they were actually born with only eight nodes instead of 30 under their arm and so you remove five of those well of course you're going to get lymphadema I mean it used to be the protocol was the surgeon had to dig around there and remove every single node they felt like this was life saving so 100% of those patients with uh breast cancer um that have that severe um surgical procedure they all got lymphadema because there were no nodes left to drain out of that area and so it certainly has helped to remove fewer nodes but but when you look at um that even with the fewer nodes if you still have high inflammation you and you didn't start out with a lot of nodes there still is a good chance that you're going to get lymphadema and so that patient that comes to our clinics we never can tell them oh you are not going to get lymphadema you know so you only had one node removed and you had no radiation you're not going to get it we can't say that if they have that high inflammation lifestyle and just that one node removed they still are at risk for lymphadema um and so that's why the national lymphadema network doesn't say um precautions or prevention of lymphadema that they say risk reduction practices here are some things that you can do to reduce your risk of lymphadema and I think that the strongest thing they can do is to um to have a a lwi inflammation diet oh I wish I would have known that then I know and that's how we all think about not only our care of our patients and you know our family and I mean we all think that gosh what what a disservice I did I did you know but but we didn't know um but the wonderful thing is that you can't unknow this stuff once you learn it now you can be of help I totally agree with you on the you know not being able to exercise lymphadema away until you get your diet squared away because uh when I was uh at my heaviest you know my legs were so swollen uh and so heavy they're actually pulling my hip at a joint uh when I try to lift it up you know and so was actually a serious problem but I do definitely function better on a high fat diet with lower proteins which is uh kind of crazy I know you'd brought that up once before but however I have noticed recently longterm fasting has been doing the greatest benefit for me I do every other week I do a sday fast so I basically eat for a week and do a s-day fast for a week I was wondering if you have seen uh any literature or know anything on fasting what part does aagy play in healing up the lymphatic system our bodies are going undergoing autophagy everywhere constantly and certain things may increase it and and some lower it but that's definitely happening another theory that we're working on in this in the lymphology community specifically with the diet and lymphology is that people who have an impairment to the central lymphatics the lymphatics at the trunk specifically get increased fluid and bloating and difficulty breathing um when they eat um starts out with just eating a lot of fat but then it comes turns into just eating a lot um eating anything not necessarily a lot but eating anything and what we're thinking is that the the lymphatics are so impaired and of course it's it's involved in that uh movement of uh fluid uh and fat that anytime we eat it's it's stressed we got to have those fats and we got to eat but in that specific population doing the fasts seems to help um and that might be what's happening but of course you know fasting is not a sustainable long-term solution every once in while you you're going to have to eat and I do believe um that you definitely don't want to have a fatty acid deficiency so you're going to need to have fat and I do think that there's a a potential that fat are actually healing to the lymphatics and so that may be another reason why it was good for you to be high fat it could be that that um proteins for you was causing too much of an insulin response and then it didn't do well to have the high proteins um what we're discovering we have a small community of about 20 people who we suspect have um a some kind of dysfunction in their Central lymphatics and we're trying all kinds of things and um some do better um with having higher fat and some do better with higher protein um it's very individual and we're trying to how do we help the lymphatics function in that everything's got to go to the trunk right of coming out of the arms head neck and your legs are all going to the trunk and if this is not working we're going to get fluid is Left Behind and that fluid is actually going to cause the proliferation of fat it's it's going to exacerbate what's already happening and so how can we support that and so we are looking at um for instance um using a Pneumatic pump with the trunk attachment so this fills with air and it does kind of a massage to typically it's going to do it to the legs but it's also going to do it to the trunk to help move this through the um help you know encourage the lymphatics to deliver the fluid where they're supposed to go um but with that Central lymphatic dysfunction some people are getting it going backwards it's going to the kidneys it's going to the liver it's going to the lungs and of course you can imagine that impairs the functioning of those organs so we have to figure out how can we support that that fluid movement without doing it too well because a lot of it's going to reflex and go the wrong way and exacerbate what's happening and so you know Todd I think that you are one of those people that has um some difficulty some challenges with your Central lymphatics and so figuring out what is going to support them but not support them too much so that you can improve without having some of those uh symptoms worsen because we're getting stuff going the wrong way it's a very difficult difficult situation well honestly you were the one that told me that through the thoracic duck it was refluxing going to my lungs and I definitely think that was 110% happening because since I've uh improve so much with the lym impact the lymphatic tissue and stuff I don't I don't have the lung issues anymore you know and that that's been a long that's been a lifetime issue but lately what I've been doing that's been working wonderfully I use I do the Wim Hoff breathing because I noticed that opens up the diaphragm yes and I do the shake plate on my feet for 10 minutes and then I do the shake plate on my arms for 10 minutes and then I do the rebounding the calf rebounding in that order and I can feel it move in the fluid and then if I wear compression socks and I do long-term fasting what's good about those two things is I don't it doesn't come back on like before it was just a yo-yo like yes it was it was just a revolving door i' get it off and come back on i' get it off and I mean it could fluctuate 15 to 23 lounds in a 20 4 to 48 hour period you know right right and now when I do that system I it stays off I don't you know maybe I'll have a 10% backlog but it does not come back on like it was before so I do think it's actually healing and I I contribute to that mostly to the fasting yeah yeah um but then when you are eating you're eating the right way and you're um also supplementing it with those other modalities with the vibration one of the biggest movers from our of our lymphatics and our Venus return in the lower body is that calf pump and you're really activating that with your rebounding um you don't have to even leave the the rebounder you know you just keep your contact with it and that is activating that calf pump yeah I really find that to be successful on that rebounder when you're coming down you really got to point your heels down and get the stretch of the calf and if you do that you get five times as much pump out of it I noticed I move more fluid well done well done you you need to to share that a lot what your protocol is and and let people try that and I think it's it's going to be very individual but knowing the things that you do is going to help other people to try those things and see what works for them it may be it works better in a different order or they'll might throw in something else like dry brushing or something else but um it having those um n equal one experiments and sharing that with people helps people um to see this is something I can try this is something that might help me and remind us how long have you been carnivore speaking of things that are sustainable or not sustainable that we try out what's your carnivore Journey been uh I started I was keto starting in about 2011 2012 um and then I went carnivore in 2019 um and already a lot of people in the community were were doing it and so I was intrigued by it um but I had a um the opportunity to try this body composition analyzer uh had a one-month trial in my clinic um so it looked at uh fluid levels and uh lean mass and fat mass and it was quite expensive uh I think it about $14,000 unit and I thought well I'm going to use it for a month but of course I'm not going to buy this thing but and so I was using it all my patience but I thought well let's do this I'm going to do it hook it up myself get my results and I'm going to start carnivore that day and then test when I have to return it in a month and I'll test it again and the results in the the fluid composition of my lean mass um my fat Mass was so startling for such a short time that I thought well of course I need to to go carnivore and so i' I've never gone back since since uh 2019 um doing it that way and and so now that all of my friends and colleagues look at me like I'm even crazier definitely that's so inspiring and Dr Keith are you more high fat moderate protein I I'm I'm slightly less uh protein than I am fat it would be like uh 65 45 and I do tend to eat probably the six same six Foods Maybe maybe four Foods all the time and and that you know it is amazing that that's one of the complaints if you just go keto you know they think about using the diet well it's just so monotonous um so it's not monotonous that you have oatmeal every morning you have the same type of sand sandwich for lunch and you have the same you know three dinners that you have every night I mean they don't understand that they're already doing something very you know not a lot of variants in their in their way of eating um anyhow but um I just never get tired of steak and Todd just to go back to you for new viewers who uh want to know what you're doing to get such great results you mentioned that your higher fat moderate protein what's a typical meal ideal meal for you and how many years of carnivore are you right now 20 months carnivore uh lately I've been doing a 2 to1 fat protein ratio and uh getting most of it from egg yolks and Tallow and so I ate about a pound of beef a day and I am working on being that I do a alternate fast every other week I eat one week and I fast one week I've been eating uh trying to get kind kind of doing a mini Prime every other week and so I've been uh right now I'm eating uh 54 egg yolks a day when I am eating because I'm trying to get I'm trying to get the you know the DHEA uh from the benefits of the egg yolks and about a pound of beef and then I substitute with cow to get a 2 to1 fat protein ratio right now a question for you Dr Keith for those who are watching this video and they're seeing that all we eat is steak Todd is eating 54 yolks a day and they're wondering is there such a thing as eating too many eggs or eating too much bacon what's your answer to that I think that Andreas I'm felt years ago did a thing you know just to give the cut off for a number of eggs but I think he's said 26 eggs there wasn't a an out an outside number of of eggs that that people could that we could say that were going to be detrimental to health um and and as far as bacon um I have recently um it seems like the Appo a little a I'm not even sure which one but one of those little markers when I eat a lot of bacon and when I use lard to cook everything in it seems like that number goes up but when we look at our number I mean it's it definitely might indicate something is happening for instance you know the tnf alpha can in say that you have increased inflammation or something like that but I I think it's a it's a it's a difficult trap to go into to treat your blood panel and not treat what's happening you know actually happening in your body and and how you feel stuff like that so I do tend to eat bacon every day but I add a increased lard um when I did like a 30-day no Dairy challenge um didn't really notice a difference so now I'm cooking in butter so I don't know if if that will change you know my my blood panel number I I'm I am one of those people that I find it kind of fun and interesting just go get blood pest blood tests and see ah I wonder what my vitamin C levels are I think I'll give my blood drawn so I'm not so sure that there is a problem with you know having a lot of pork fat is a lot of um talk about you know poultry and pork and maybe that's not the right kind of fat I'm not so I me that's a Nuance that I'm not too terribly familiar with I I do think that there can be a problem with those um seed oils that that may not be the best kind of fat and I think we're getting more evidence to that um what are your thoughts out there like I've been eating a stick of butter a day like my first year of going carnivore and it has completely healed my hormones and I think maybe hormones also have a lot to do with lymphadema and how your lymph nodes are functioning um I've seen a complete change in my body recomposition so I feel like things are working well hormones are happy and to this day I still eat a lot of fat like I'm probably the highest fat carnivore I know Ahi and dairy fat seems to be okay for for you very okay I definitely I I love my cream and I love my butter so um and I do I make homade ice cream um with about 18 egg yolks and uh one of those little pints of cream maybe a dash of vanilla don't need anything else and uh that I think the more egg yolks that I put into it to it tastes better I am so thankful that I do well with dairy fat because it tastes so good it does it really does I unfortunately don't tolerate Dairy as much as I hate to admit it I I cut Dairy out uh probably over two months ago noticed a significant difference all of a sudden butter just didn't taste good to me anymore and I was like that's weird so I started with Tallow and now like Bella was saying about how she had all the body recomposition I'm experiencing significant body recomposition like weight is just melting off of me inches are melting off of me and I'm like has it been the dairy this whole time like so dramatic because I love it so much but it's true it's just my body just doesn't process it the way you know say your body does which is a real big bummer keep in mind this sure you guys are all familiar with shobon Huggins she has found it's so interesting our body needs seem to morph over time and she actually for a time had an egg allergy but now she doesn't so think about this um Michelle that you may at a point in time do good with dairy again I mean that that is that potential that's out there it's just that I she was I mean she's been carnivore for quite some time but she got a hankering for I can't remember what it was some plant kind of food and what she was thinking is maybe there is a nutrient in there that I needed um so sometimes your Cravings are not a addiction like it is for sugar but it is actually that you're seeking as a particular nutrient and so she said okay well I'm just going to eat that whatever that is and then after a month it didn't taste so good anymore so she got what she needed from that and she stopped eating that so consider that that um there was this wonderful study with goats that they did um they took out this vital micronutrient out of their diet and and they found that those goats ate and ate and ate and they didn't stop eating because they were they needed that particular nutrient and they were trying to get it and so they had that compulsion to keep eating merely because they were seeking a nutrient that wasn't there and so that can contribute to at least there is a certain portion of the population that gain a lot of weight because of the binge eating I think besides addiction we have to also look at is there a nutrient that they're not getting maybe because they're more a plant-based you know binge eating so so they're not getting a nutrient that they need that would they get from an animal Source food so um it's just something that make it more complicated right oh well I appreciate the encouragement because I'm also at the point where eggs are I'm hyp sensitive to eggs I cannot tolerate eggs I cannot tolerate Dairy but you know a few weeks ago I just was I couldn't stop craving Dairy I was like what is going on like I haven't had dairy in weeks and I had one meal full of dairy I got my Dairy fixed I don't know what I needed from it but that was it I didn't want to go back to it after that and I you know you just saying that kind of just confirms what I already know about myself my body is just communicating hey I need this right now can you give this to me I gave it to my body it got what it needed and now it's gone I'm like all right and that tells me that it's wasn't an addiction for you because corre that one little hit of sugar you're on to sugar right you can't stop eating the sugar but you got what you needed from that Dairy and then you're good Dr Keith I'll link your two books as well as your website down below under this video for viewers to check out if they want to get to know you better but I would also love for you to share how can the community support you and keep up to date with your research a couple of uh emails um I think when you already have Bella is leslin keot gmail.com um but I I am really heavily involved in lipedema community and uh a lot of the papers have come out with my work with that Community I am the director of research for the lipedema project and so to specifically reach me about those concerns about lipedema um you can reach me at lesin lipedema project.org that'll be the two good places to reach me excellent do you have any support groups are you on social media I with another colleague um another occupational therapist who is into the ketogenic way of eating Robert urom I have formed a a lifestyle group for people with lymphadema and sometimes also obesity um we do lymphatic Lifestyle Solutions and um you can find out more about that from my website lling kei.com um also it has links to my books and and presentations you can just go to my website leslin kei.com let's all say a big thank you to Dr Les Keith thank you so much for being thank you Dr for your thank you so much it was it's been wonderful chatting with you all thank you so much for watching this Roundtable interview I hope you found it helpful you all can meet Dr leslin Keith and ask her your personal questions by joining the next Stak and butter gang Carnival challenge she will be visiting the community as a guest speaker so all the members will be able to learn from her directly to not miss the next challenge featuring Dr leslin Keith Dr Anthony cha Dr Robert kiltz Dr Tony Hampton and coach rebecc a heishman make sure you visit the URL shown on the screen SBG meetup.com I've also linked clickable links Down Below in the description box and finally before I wrap up I just wanted to share something that I have been incorporating every single day that has really leveled up my energy and sleep and that is wearing blue blockers this is a new one that I actually got from my favorite blue blocker brand and I've been wearing this during the summer months this is what it looks like when I wear it on I love its minimal clean look and specifically just the maximum protection that it provides when I wear this red one in front of blue light so if you are using phones iPads computers TVs you are looking at Blue Light and when you look at it late at night when it's dark outside it could disrupt your sleep quality and it could make it more difficult to fall asleep so because I have been wearing it every single night right before bed like about 1 hour to 2 hours before bed it has really helped me be able to fall asleep basically instantaneously and I'm able to stay asleep throughout the night Bon charge also offers a great selection of other biohacking tools and equipment and steak and butter guy and I have also been loving their infrared sauna blanket it's basically a blanket that you plug in that wraps 360° around you you choose the setting that you like and you can enjoy all the benefits of infrared light therapy while just lying down and relaxing and it also does heat up so it's incredibly comfortable on those cold winter days if you guys would like to check out any of my biohacking favorites I'll make sure to link them down below in the description box and you all can use the code s SPG for 15% off your purchase all right thank you so much for watching the video I hope you guys enjoy the rest of your day and I'll see you in the next oneg out